Osama Dead

[mylestheslasher]

I personally don't see anything wrong with waterboarding as a means to gathering crucial information that would stop attacks on the West. Sitting down at a table with these guys and providing them with cosy cells isn't going to have the desired affect so the information has to be obtained in some way. Now i am not saying whatever goes here as there are clearly constraints that need to placed on these methods of torture.

Just a question. Would it have been ok to waterboard Irish men in the North during internment given that many of them were not guilty of anything?

[johnneycool]

I personally don't see anything wrong with waterboarding as a means to gathering crucial information that would stop attacks on the West. Sitting down at a table with these guys and providing them with cosy cells isn't going to have the desired affect so the information has to be obtained in some way. Now i am not saying whatever goes here as there are clearly constraints that need to placed on these methods of torture.

Would you mind being waterboarded?

[AZOffaly]

I personally don't see anything wrong with waterboarding as a means to gathering crucial information...

The fundamental problem with that, as with any form of torture, is that you are far from guaranteed to extract any information of any value. Just ask the Guilford 4 or Birmingham 6.

Which, by extension FSB, which is what I presume you are getting at,  you are far from guaranteed to be torturing the right people. Is torturing everyone in a village, knowing that one of them will have the information, a justifiable approach?

That's a genuine question. Does the greater good mean you can torture and maybe kill some innocent people, if you believe you are protecting a larger number.

[Carmen Stateside]

[orangeman]

I personally don't see anything wrong with waterboarding as a means to gathering crucial information that would stop attacks on the West. Sitting down at a table with these guys and providing them with cosy cells isn't going to have the desired affect so the information has to be obtained in some way. Now i am not saying whatever goes here as there are clearly constraints that need to placed on these methods of torture.

Just a question. Would it have been ok to waterboard Irish men in the North during internment given that many of them were not guilty of anything?

It was done in the 70s.

Claims for compo being lodged shortly.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

That's a genuine question. Does the greater good mean you can torture and maybe kill some innocent people, if you believe you are protecting a larger number.

Absolutely not AZ, for therein lies the crossing from a civilised to barbaric society.

[haveaharp]

Im not so sure on the torture issue. I know its a slippery slope but had one of the 9/11 hijackers have been waterboarded and gave the game up thereby preventing the deaths of 3000 on the day and the many many more that has followed in retribution would it not have been a watering can well spent. Interesting the debate as to civilised v uncivilised, does that not just equal "haves v have nots"

Good debate all round on this thread so far.

[seafoid]

Im not so sure on the torture issue. I know its a slippery slope but had one of the 9/11 hijackers have been waterboarded and gave the game up thereby preventing the deaths of 3000 on the day and the many many more that has followed in retribution would it not have been a watering can well spent. Interesting the debate as to civilised v uncivilised, does that not just equal "haves v have nots"

Good debate all round on this thread so far.

Torture is ineffective and is no substitute for intelligence and understanding.
The pr argument is always around the ticking bomb situation that never happens.
Waterboarding and Gitmo and abu ghraib lost the Americans the Middle East. It is as simple as that.
Israel is going to reap the results.

Israeli torture has brutalised Israeli society. Torture is a dead end   

[haveaharp]

Im not so sure on the torture issue. I know its a slippery slope but had one of the 9/11 hijackers have been waterboarded and gave the game up thereby preventing the deaths of 3000 on the day and the many many more that has followed in retribution would it not have been a watering can well spent. Interesting the debate as to civilised v uncivilised, does that not just equal "haves v have nots"

Good debate all round on this thread so far.

The pr argument is always around the ticking bomb situation that never happens.

   

But it did happen, that said there is no doubt 9/11 has been exploited hugely to justify western actions in Afganistan, Iraq.

Read somewhere earlier that the Americans hung Japanese soldiers in ww2 for waterboarding or its equivalent.

Latest one is that Osama was planning to derail a train in the States, must have had too much time watching old Westerns in his villa.

[magpie seanie]

Im not so sure on the torture issue. I know its a slippery slope but had one of the 9/11 hijackers have been waterboarded and gave the game up thereby preventing the deaths of 3000 on the day and the many many more that has followed in retribution would it not have been a watering can well spent. Interesting the debate as to civilised v uncivilised, does that not just equal "haves v have nots"

Good debate all round on this thread so far.

For a start no-one would have believed that anyone could fly two planes into the WTC and kill 3000 people.

[haveaharp]

Im not so sure on the torture issue. I know its a slippery slope but had one of the 9/11 hijackers have been waterboarded and gave the game up thereby preventing the deaths of 3000 on the day and the many many more that has followed in retribution would it not have been a watering can well spent. Interesting the debate as to civilised v uncivilised, does that not just equal "haves v have nots"

Good debate all round on this thread so far.

For a start no-one would have believed that anyone could fly two planes into the WTC and kill 3000 people.

Dunno seanie, would it not have been public knowledge about the previous attempt to blow up the WTC ?

[Main Street]

Personally I don't care when/where/how Bin Laden was killed or if some people think that it was a cause for celebration.
WTC  3,000 dead
War in Afghanistan/Iraq,   950,000 dead   1,800,000 seriously injured. 
2 countries ravaged.
Enough propaganda bull to fill all the rubbish dumps in the world.

2011 - Bin Laden -  alleged mastermind behind the WTC attack, is allegedly killed.
'The world is a safer place' 

[deiseach]

How many people would you have to torture to find someone who knew what was going to happen to the WTC? And how many of those tortured would have told you they'd murdered Sharon Tate (© Jesse Ventura) just to get you to stop? Not only is torture depraved, it doesn't even work

[Declan]

The privilege of opening the first trial in history for crimes against the peace of the world imposes a grave responsibility. The wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so malignant, and so devastating, that civilization cannot tolerate their being ignored, because it cannot survive their being repeated. That four great nations, flushed with victory and stung with injury stay the hand of vengeance and voluntarily submit their captive enemies to the judgment of the law is one of the most significant tributes that Power has ever paid to Reason.
Opening address by Robert H. Jackson the chief United States prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials.


"If the Nuremberg laws were applied today, then every Post-War American president would have to be hanged."
- Noam Chomsky

[Groucho]

Personally I don't care when/where/how Bin Laden was killed or if some people think that it was a cause for celebration.
WTC  3,000 dead
War in Afghanistan/Iraq,   950,000 dead   1,800,000 seriously injured. 
2 countries ravaged.
Enough propaganda bull to fill all the rubbish dumps in the world.

2011 - Bin Laden -  alleged mastermind behind the WTC attack, is allegedly killed.
'The world is a safer place' 

Democracy...as brought to you by Uncle Sam