The Luke "Ming" Flanagan Thread

[StephenC]

Has anyone on the board ever just admitted that they were wrong and moved on? Not that I've ever seen. A battle to get to a point where you either wear others down or show that you were a "little-bit right" seems to be the norm.

[muppet]

Lar Naparka, you said you don't follow 'dúirt bean liom', but that's exactly what you are doing here. I originally asked for a citation for the notion that the numbers claiming the dole 'dipped dramatically' at the time of the ash cloud. Your reply seemed to indicate that the mere fact that everyone knows that the ash cloud wreaked havoc with air travel spares you the need to provide some evidence for your assertion. foxcommander provided a link with the figures and they showed that the numbers did not dip dramatically, not as far as the authorities are concerned anyway. Then we have references to two taxi drivers in Dublin airport and the length of queues on Burgh Quay. You are entitled to make judgements based on that kind of evidence, and I'm entitled to view it as the flimsiest evidence imaginable.

As I've already said, it was very remiss of me to bring up the volcanic ash incident and assume that everyone would know what I was referring to. I accept it was wrong to do so and I should, at the very least, attempted to  provide some corroboration.
I really don't know why I included that remark as it wasn't central to the case I was making.
I had intended to say that I agreed with just about all AZOffaly had to say bar the assertion that if EU nationals are undercutting Irish workers it may be because the Irish have priced themselves out of the market and I beg to differ with that.
That's the point I was intending to put and regret that I went off-topic.
What I've had to say about numbers entering and leaving the country, especially the former, is quite a different matter. While you and muppet appear to rubbish my findings , neither of you have advanced a single reason why.
I don't intend to carry on with this pointlessly prattle any longer. I assume both of us have better things to do.
However, if either of you can give a credible reason for people queuing patiently outside the NSIS offices on Burgh Quay for hours on end, that is not related to non-EAA persons getting entry visas,  I'd love to know.

I never heard of these offices until your post.

However their website says that the 12 months to october 2013 saw them issue 10,000 student visas to non-EAA persons. It lists the countries involved.

Getting back to your posts.

What, as succinctly as possible, are you saying?

[Lar Naparka]

Lar Naparka, you said you don't follow 'dúirt bean liom', but that's exactly what you are doing here. I originally asked for a citation for the notion that the numbers claiming the dole 'dipped dramatically' at the time of the ash cloud. Your reply seemed to indicate that the mere fact that everyone knows that the ash cloud wreaked havoc with air travel spares you the need to provide some evidence for your assertion. foxcommander provided a link with the figures and they showed that the numbers did not dip dramatically, not as far as the authorities are concerned anyway. Then we have references to two taxi drivers in Dublin airport and the length of queues on Burgh Quay. You are entitled to make judgements based on that kind of evidence, and I'm entitled to view it as the flimsiest evidence imaginable.

As I've already said, it was very remiss of me to bring up the volcanic ash incident and assume that everyone would know what I was referring to. I accept it was wrong to do so and I should, at the very least, attempted to  provide some corroboration.
I really don't know why I included that remark as it wasn't central to the case I was making.
I had intended to say that I agreed with just about all AZOffaly had to say bar the assertion that if EU nationals are undercutting Irish workers it may be because the Irish have priced themselves out of the market and I beg to differ with that.
That's the point I was intending to put and regret that I went off-topic.
What I've had to say about numbers entering and leaving the country, especially the former, is quite a different matter. While you and muppet appear to rubbish my findings , neither of you have advanced a single reason why.
I don't intend to carry on with this pointlessly prattle any longer. I assume both of us have better things to do.
However, if either of you can give a credible reason for people queuing patiently outside the NSIS offices on Burgh Quay for hours on end, that is not related to non-EAA persons getting entry visas,  I'd love to know.

I never heard of these offices until your post.

However their website says that the 12 months to october 2013 saw them issue 10,000 student visas to non-EAA persons. It lists the countries involved.

Getting back to your posts.

What, as succinctly as possible, are you saying?

Fair enough, mup, anything for a fellow-Mayo head(er!)
It clears up one mystery for me at any rate.
I had thought that if you and deiseach saw fit to dispute my figures on immigration, you'd have known what goes on at NSIS on Burgh Quay.
Not to worry, better late than never.
It handles visa applications form citizens of non-EAA countries amongst other things and such applications are dealt with on Tuesdays. I have seen crowds, three deep, stretching for the doors of this centre right around the corner into Corn Exchange Place and well up along it and that's well more than 135.
Throw in the fact that only non-EEA nationals' applications  are processed here and that it caters for the Dublin region only, I happy to state than more than 135 people enter this state every friggin' week!
Keep the faith!

[Lar Naparka]

Has anyone on the board ever just admitted that they were wrong and moved on? Not that I've ever seen. A battle to get to a point where you either wear others down or show that you were a "little-bit right" seems to be the norm.

I believe I just did that.

[muppet]

Lar Naparka, you said you don't follow 'dúirt bean liom', but that's exactly what you are doing here. I originally asked for a citation for the notion that the numbers claiming the dole 'dipped dramatically' at the time of the ash cloud. Your reply seemed to indicate that the mere fact that everyone knows that the ash cloud wreaked havoc with air travel spares you the need to provide some evidence for your assertion. foxcommander provided a link with the figures and they showed that the numbers did not dip dramatically, not as far as the authorities are concerned anyway. Then we have references to two taxi drivers in Dublin airport and the length of queues on Burgh Quay. You are entitled to make judgements based on that kind of evidence, and I'm entitled to view it as the flimsiest evidence imaginable.

As I've already said, it was very remiss of me to bring up the volcanic ash incident and assume that everyone would know what I was referring to. I accept it was wrong to do so and I should, at the very least, attempted to  provide some corroboration.
I really don't know why I included that remark as it wasn't central to the case I was making.
I had intended to say that I agreed with just about all AZOffaly had to say bar the assertion that if EU nationals are undercutting Irish workers it may be because the Irish have priced themselves out of the market and I beg to differ with that.
That's the point I was intending to put and regret that I went off-topic.
What I've had to say about numbers entering and leaving the country, especially the former, is quite a different matter. While you and muppet appear to rubbish my findings , neither of you have advanced a single reason why.
I don't intend to carry on with this pointlessly prattle any longer. I assume both of us have better things to do.
However, if either of you can give a credible reason for people queuing patiently outside the NSIS offices on Burgh Quay for hours on end, that is not related to non-EAA persons getting entry visas,  I'd love to know.

I never heard of these offices until your post.

However their website says that the 12 months to october 2013 saw them issue 10,000 student visas to non-EAA persons. It lists the countries involved.

Getting back to your posts.

What, as succinctly as possible, are you saying?

Fair enough, mup, anything for a fellow-Mayo head(er!)
It clears up one mystery for me at any rate.
I had thought that if you and deiseach saw fit to dispute my figures on immigration, you'd have known what goes on at NSIS on Burgh Quay.
Not to worry, better late than never.
It handles visa applications form citizens of non-EAA countries amongst other things and such applications are dealt with on Tuesdays. I have seen crowds, three deep, stretching for the doors of this centre right around the corner into Corn Exchange Place and well up along it and that's well more than 135.
Throw in the fact that only non-EEA nationals' applications  are processed here and that it caters for the Dublin region only, I happy to state than more than 135 people enter this state every friggin' week!
Keep the faith!

Ok thanks for answering and I have no idea why I am still replying, I must be in quite contrary form, but....

The website suggests it is the only office in Ireland. I am open to correction on that.

During the famine we had 6,500 emigrants every week. They met with varying fortunes. Personally as long as people coming here are genuinely willing to work, and avoid crime, I would be well disposed to them. Some level of restriction on immigration from outside the EU would probably also be a good idea, but I wouldn't close the door. There are people suffering like our emigrants did. Palestine for example.

[macdanger2]

Lar Naparka, you said you don't follow 'dúirt bean liom', but that's exactly what you are doing here. I originally asked for a citation for the notion that the numbers claiming the dole 'dipped dramatically' at the time of the ash cloud. Your reply seemed to indicate that the mere fact that everyone knows that the ash cloud wreaked havoc with air travel spares you the need to provide some evidence for your assertion. foxcommander provided a link with the figures and they showed that the numbers did not dip dramatically, not as far as the authorities are concerned anyway. Then we have references to two taxi drivers in Dublin airport and the length of queues on Burgh Quay. You are entitled to make judgements based on that kind of evidence, and I'm entitled to view it as the flimsiest evidence imaginable.

As I've already said, it was very remiss of me to bring up the volcanic ash incident and assume that everyone would know what I was referring to. I accept it was wrong to do so and I should, at the very least, attempted to  provide some corroboration.
I really don't know why I included that remark as it wasn't central to the case I was making.
I had intended to say that I agreed with just about all AZOffaly had to say bar the assertion that if EU nationals are undercutting Irish workers it may be because the Irish have priced themselves out of the market and I beg to differ with that.
That's the point I was intending to put and regret that I went off-topic.
What I've had to say about numbers entering and leaving the country, especially the former, is quite a different matter. While you and muppet appear to rubbish my findings , neither of you have advanced a single reason why.
I don't intend to carry on with this pointlessly prattle any longer. I assume both of us have better things to do.
However, if either of you can give a credible reason for people queuing patiently outside the NSIS offices on Burgh Quay for hours on end, that is not related to non-EAA persons getting entry visas,  I'd love to know.

I never heard of these offices until your post.

However their website says that the 12 months to october 2013 saw them issue 10,000 student visas to non-EAA persons. It lists the countries involved.

Getting back to your posts.

What, as succinctly as possible, are you saying?

Fair enough, mup, anything for a fellow-Mayo head(er!)
It clears up one mystery for me at any rate.
I had thought that if you and deiseach saw fit to dispute my figures on immigration, you'd have known what goes on at NSIS on Burgh Quay.
Not to worry, better late than never.
It handles visa applications form citizens of non-EAA countries amongst other things and such applications are dealt with on Tuesdays. I have seen crowds, three deep, stretching for the doors of this centre right around the corner into Corn Exchange Place and well up along it and that's well more than 135.
Throw in the fact that only non-EEA nationals' applications  are processed here and that it caters for the Dublin region only, I happy to state than more than 135 people enter this state every friggin' week!
Keep the faith!

Lar, you're assuming one is served and finished dealing with the service after a single visit, unlikely to be the case I'd imagine based on my experience of the civil service.


What exactly are ye arguing about / discussing? I've read most of the.posts but I'm beyond lost!!

[Lar Naparka]

Lar Naparka, you said you don't follow 'dúirt bean liom', but that's exactly what you are doing here. I originally asked for a citation for the notion that the numbers claiming the dole 'dipped dramatically' at the time of the ash cloud. Your reply seemed to indicate that the mere fact that everyone knows that the ash cloud wreaked havoc with air travel spares you the need to provide some evidence for your assertion. foxcommander provided a link with the figures and they showed that the numbers did not dip dramatically, not as far as the authorities are concerned anyway. Then we have references to two taxi drivers in Dublin airport and the length of queues on Burgh Quay. You are entitled to make judgements based on that kind of evidence, and I'm entitled to view it as the flimsiest evidence imaginable.

As I've already said, it was very remiss of me to bring up the volcanic ash incident and assume that everyone would know what I was referring to. I accept it was wrong to do so and I should, at the very least, attempted to  provide some corroboration.
I really don't know why I included that remark as it wasn't central to the case I was making.
I had intended to say that I agreed with just about all AZOffaly had to say bar the assertion that if EU nationals are undercutting Irish workers it may be because the Irish have priced themselves out of the market and I beg to differ with that.
That's the point I was intending to put and regret that I went off-topic.
What I've had to say about numbers entering and leaving the country, especially the former, is quite a different matter. While you and muppet appear to rubbish my findings , neither of you have advanced a single reason why.
I don't intend to carry on with this pointlessly prattle any longer. I assume both of us have better things to do.
However, if either of you can give a credible reason for people queuing patiently outside the NSIS offices on Burgh Quay for hours on end, that is not related to non-EAA persons getting entry visas,  I'd love to know.

I never heard of these offices until your post.

However their website says that the 12 months to october 2013 saw them issue 10,000 student visas to non-EAA persons. It lists the countries involved.

Getting back to your posts.

What, as succinctly as possible, are you saying?

Fair enough, mup, anything for a fellow-Mayo head(er!)
It clears up one mystery for me at any rate.
I had thought that if you and deiseach saw fit to dispute my figures on immigration, you'd have known what goes on at NSIS on Burgh Quay.
Not to worry, better late than never.
It handles visa applications form citizens of non-EAA countries amongst other things and such applications are dealt with on Tuesdays. I have seen crowds, three deep, stretching for the doors of this centre right around the corner into Corn Exchange Place and well up along it and that's well more than 135.
Throw in the fact that only non-EEA nationals' applications  are processed here and that it caters for the Dublin region only, I happy to state than more than 135 people enter this state every friggin' week!
Keep the faith!

Lar, you're assuming one is served and finished dealing with the service after a single visit, unlikely to be the case I'd imagine based on my experience of the civil service.


What exactly are ye arguing about / discussing? I've read most of the.posts but I'm beyond lost!!

At this stage, I'm not too sure that I know myself!
It's quite possible of course that some in the queue outside the NSIS are there on a return visit.
But even allowing for that, the numbers arriving to register in this country must be huge. The queue is there week after week and I have seen several hundred there any time I passed by. Those who were inside at the time, those who had been and gone and those who had yet to arrive weren't factored into my calculations.
From the website (www.inis.gov.ie/) I gather that it registers non-EEA nationals only and also caters only for the Dublin region.
So people who arrive in other areas and those who come from EEA states are not included.
Okay so far?
I read in an Indo article some time back that an average of 135 Irish people were emigrating every week. Bearing in mind that there are more departure points that Dublin Airport, I asked a cabbie I know if he felt 135 was an accurate figure. He works the airport rank.
Here again, I knew that some would be driven there, some would arrive by coach and some would not indicate to the cabbie that they  were emigrating.
The estimate was always going to be lower than the actual number.
I wasn't asking him for a statistical analysis or the like;s more along the lines of ,"how many could you definitely;y say were emigrating?"
Based on his own experiences and from what he heard from other cabbies who work the rank, he felt the number was understated if anything.
(That's those leaving through Dublin Airport alone!)

Then I asked him if he could give me an estimate of the number coming in every week. Again, I knew the number I'd get was going to be lower than the true figure for the same reasons- some would be collected, others would leaver by coach etc.
Once again, Dublin is only one of many points of arrival so the answer I would get was going to be lower than the actual amount.
Again, taking his colleague's experiences into consideration, the figure I got was higher than 135.
Discarding arcane debating society conventions, in the real world, many are coming into the country as others emigrate.
(To make doubly sure, I asked another driver on the same rank the same questions at a different time, and I got more or less the same answers.)

At the back of my mind when I wrote the post that started WW III, was the ongoing Greyhound controversy.  The shower of hoors who collect my rubbish recently sacked any worker who wasn't prepared to take a massive pay cut and hired others who would.
From what I hear, the cut was from an average of €435 down to €330.
BY pure coincidence, my bin was collected earlier today. The bin lorry was followed by a half dozen sacked workers ( 4 Irish and 2 Nigerians as far as I could tell.)waving placards, shouting and banging the sides of the lorry with sticks. It seems this goes on in other areas as well.

Here, I rest my case and am going to head back to the Mayo discussion pages so I can worry some sheep! I'm beginning to get withdrawal symptoms.

[muppet]

Lar, the INIS site has only one address, Burgh Quay, Dublin. It appears to me to be the only centre in Ireland issuing visas, student visas, etc. You may be correct in saying Burgh Quay deals only with Dublin, but I see no evidence of that.

Regarding dealing with departments such as the above, I have been trying to submit a form for 6 weeks. It has been returned 3 times, twice due to my misreading of an idiotic form and the 3rd time due to the form they sent me now being 'obsolete'. So they have sent back the form the sent me and sent another new one with it. It easily could be the same 135 people all year round in this f*cking country.

The last issue you mention is more serious as far as I am concerned.

It is illegal in Ireland to sack someone and hire cheaper labour. Our rights protect us against that. So either someone isn't telling you the full story or, and this is quite possible, the lads with the placards are being poorly advised or simply don't know their rights. But like anything else it is only really illegal when a judge or process rules it so.

[foxcommander]

It is illegal in Ireland to sack someone and hire cheaper labour. Our rights protect us against that. So either someone isn't telling you the full story or, and this is quite possible, the lads with the placards are being poorly advised or simply don't know their rights. But like anything else it is only really illegal when a judge or process rules it so.

If you are self employed/on a contract there is nothing stopping the employer telling you there is no further work for you. What recourse do you have then. That's what was happening on building sites, I'm sure there were other areas too. Some others were just laid off with a token severance. Cheaper hires were kept on or even recruited.

[muppet]

It is illegal in Ireland to sack someone and hire cheaper labour. Our rights protect us against that. So either someone isn't telling you the full story or, and this is quite possible, the lads with the placards are being poorly advised or simply don't know their rights. But like anything else it is only really illegal when a judge or process rules it so.

If you are self employed/on a contract there is nothing stopping the employer telling you there is no further work for you. What recourse do you have then. That's what was happening on building sites, I'm sure there were other areas too. Some others were just laid off with a token severance. Cheaper hires were kept on or even recruited.

It is illegal to be fired and replaced by cheaper employment. If your fixed term contract has ended that is a different issue.

The first thing you learn is how to fight properly.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1114/69721-irishferries/

[foxcommander]

It is illegal to be fired and replaced by cheaper employment. If your fixed term contract has ended that is a different issue.

The first thing you learn is how to fight properly.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1114/69721-irishferries/

While I take your point on Irish Ferries the problem is that if you are an individual or very small numbers you don't have the collective power to fight this. Unions don't really give a toss about individuals (oh sh*t - i'm not trying to start another thread) as they are already cosy with governments, so really - you're on your own unless you are prepared to lose even more going the court routes, which most sane individuals will not do.

Most take the point of view that they will get another decent paid job soon. and they wait. and they wait. and they leave the country or take some demeaning job which puts them in a far worse position and makes them really struggle to keep their head above water.

It's pretty sad to see (hence my standpoint on immigration). I'm sure everyone knows someone in this situation.

[Lar Naparka]

Lar, the INIS site has only one address, Burgh Quay, Dublin. It appears to me to be the only centre in Ireland issuing visas, student visas, etc. You may be correct in saying Burgh Quay deals only with Dublin, but I see no evidence of that.

Regarding dealing with departments such as the above, I have been trying to submit a form for 6 weeks. It has been returned 3 times, twice due to my misreading of an idiotic form and the 3rd time due to the form they sent me now being 'obsolete'. So they have sent back the form the sent me and sent another new one with it. It easily could be the same 135 people all year round in this f*cking country.

The last issue you mention is more serious as far as I am concerned.

It is illegal in Ireland to sack someone and hire cheaper labour. Our rights protect us against that. So either someone isn't telling you the full story or, and this is quite possible, the lads with the placards are being poorly advised or simply don't know their rights. But like anything else it is only really illegal when a judge or process rules it so.

I really can't say muppet. I entered "aliens office" as a search term and looked quickly through the firstt SERP that showed up.  (That was the old name.)
This is what I found at:
http://www.garda.ie/controller.aspx?page=31

"From the 10th of May 2014, a revised, interim smart card Certificate of Registration will be issued to all non-nationals residing in the State on registration with An Garda Síochána in accordance with Section 9 of the Immigration Act 2004.

These new cards will be printed centrally, in batches, at the offices of the Garda National Immigration Bureau, Burgh Quay, Dublin 2."
From that I'd say that non-EEA folk may register at Garda stations and NSIS will issue the visas.
Really, it wouldn't be practical to force every arrival in the country to traipse up to Dublin.
Suppose it takes three visits to obtain a visa.
So only a third (approx) of the people in the queue are newcomers in any given week.
But the queuing goes on for hours on end with some leaving and others joining so what is to be seen on the public footpath is well short of the true amount and we are not allowing for registrations at garda stations outside the Dublin area or for EEA nationals.

I know it's illegal to sack someone and bring in cheaper labour but there are more way to kill a cat than choking him with butter, as the old saying goes. There are plenty of workarounds.
A sister-in-law works in a Supervalu store on the southside. Like most of the others, she was hired during the boom years and is in a permanent position so holidays, stamps etc.
Some time ago, the owner announced that he would only be hiring on a part time basis from then on and would be paying only the basic minimum hourly rate.
That seemed reasonable enough given the times we live in.
Soon afterwards,two young Chinese girls were hired.
Both are paid for 20 hours but are obliged to work and extra four without pay. Nothing formal if you understand me but they are "expected" to come in early to stock shelves or to remain late if on the last shift, to sweep up.
The list could go on and on....

[lynchbhoy]

It is illegal in Ireland to sack someone and hire cheaper labour. Our rights protect us against that. So either someone isn't telling you the full story or, and this is quite possible, the lads with the placards are being poorly advised or simply don't know their rights. But like anything else it is only really illegal when a judge or process rules it so.

If you are self employed/on a contract there is nothing stopping the employer telling you there is no further work for you. What recourse do you have then. That's what was happening on building sites, I'm sure there were other areas too. Some others were just laid off with a token severance. Cheaper hires were kept on or even recruited.

It is illegal to be fired and replaced by cheaper employment. If your fixed term contract has ended that is a different issue.

The first thing you learn is how to fight properly.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1114/69721-irishferries/

that doesn't work (at least practically) for building site workers (chippies/brickies etc) who are not 'employees' but self employed etc

also not quite the same thing but similar result where security or cleaning companies are replaced by other companies with cheaper labour. Quite often there isn't a 'transfer of undertaking' as there are loop holes here too.

What you are saying is mostly right Muppet- but there are too many loopholes in too many areas and its generally the lower working class that are shafted in all of these. they don't have the funds to take legal action most times either if they had a case.

[foxcommander]

but there are more way to kill a cat than choking him with butter, as the old saying goes.

LOL!

Here kitty kitty kitty....want some Kerrygold?

[muppet]

It is illegal in Ireland to sack someone and hire cheaper labour. Our rights protect us against that. So either someone isn't telling you the full story or, and this is quite possible, the lads with the placards are being poorly advised or simply don't know their rights. But like anything else it is only really illegal when a judge or process rules it so.

If you are self employed/on a contract there is nothing stopping the employer telling you there is no further work for you. What recourse do you have then. That's what was happening on building sites, I'm sure there were other areas too. Some others were just laid off with a token severance. Cheaper hires were kept on or even recruited.

It is illegal to be fired and replaced by cheaper employment. If your fixed term contract has ended that is a different issue.

The first thing you learn is how to fight properly.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1114/69721-irishferries/

that doesn't work (at least practically) for building site workers (chippies/brickies etc) who are not 'employees' but self employed etc

also not quite the same thing but similar result where security or cleaning companies are replaced by other companies with cheaper labour. Quite often there isn't a 'transfer of undertaking' as there are loop holes here too.

What you are saying is mostly right Muppet- but there are too many loopholes in too many areas and its generally the lower working class that are shafted in all of these. they don't have the funds to take legal action most times either if they had a case.

I agree with everything you say, but if some of these lads approach a union they may take up their cause, especially if there is precedence. The union might view it as winnable and likely to bring media interest so win win for the union. But lads need to stand up for themselves.

As you say regarding self-employed, or as I said fixed term contracts, are different scenarios.