Paidi O Se on rural depopulation, and why he's wrong

[Rossfan]

nice bungalow a few miles outside the town near a good school with no  tinkers

Obviously Mayo is out so 

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

nice bungalow a few miles outside the town near a good school with no  tinkers

Obviously Mayo is out so 

Roscommon will be out of the Championship before us 

[blanketattack]

South America is far more urbanised than Europe. Are you saying that South America is more developed than Europe?

Likewise a lot of African countries have greater rates of urbanisation than a lot of European countries.

I have to ask you for a citation there.

On what grounds is your comment based?

It's a known fact that the industrial revolution was all about a mass migration from country to town because of mechanised agriculture (fewer farm labourers needed) and new large scale manufacturing in towns (more factory workers needed). What England went through all those years ago is now happening in Brazil, China and India. But if you want a more specific reference:

"In the richer countries of the West, cities have survived the tumultuous end of the industrial age and are now wealthier, healthier, and more alluring than ever.  In the world's poorer places, cities are expanding enormously because urban density provides the clearest path from poverty to prosperity."

Glaeser, Edward. Triumph of the City. P1. Penguin Press, 2011.

http://www.pobronson.com/factbook/pages/254.html

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_urb-people-urbanization

Thus South America is more urbanised than Europe and African countries such as Libya are more urbanised than European countries such as Denmark, Sweden and Italy.

Are you saying that South America is more developed than Europe and Libya is more developed than Denmark?

[spectator]

They go to Dhaka or Delhi because the cities offer more opportunities than the rural areas they came from. Yes there is poverty in the city just as there is in the country.  But there are ways out of urban poverty, not so for rural poverty. Hence, the cities are more attractive.

In developing countries, most people in the rural areas view the 'big smoke' as a kind of Shangri-La where they'll do well. They think they'll be able to send money back to help support their family and improve their families lives in the village. When they reach the 'big-smoke' though it quickly becomes apparent that they've landed in a harsh ultra-competitive urban jungle, where they often have to struggle mightily just to survive amidst millions of others who find themselves in a similar situation. If they're lucky they end up getting jobs such as hawking bits and bobs in hot smokey traffic jams for 20 hours a day etc and are generally exploited to the extreme for little pay. In some countries, the young people who flock to the cities can't turn around and go back home to their village, as they'll be seen as failures and a disgrace to their family. The sad irony of it all is that the villages lose their young men to what's effectively an urban pipe dream, when the most beneficial thing might have been for them to remain in the village itself to do the 'farming'  ie manual work which the old people struggle do, such as manually tilling the ground and planting \ harvesting the crops which will ultimately feed the village for the winter. Of course the village age profile rises over time also, as the younger people move away to the cities, thus threatening its sustainability too. It's quite a vicious circle which is difficult to reverse. For every one migrant who succeeds in the city, there are many more who become mired in grinding urban poverty. They would have been better off staying in their rural community or village, where they'd have been valued useful members of that community, helping it to sustain and perhaps moderately improve itself. Not every far away hill is green for the world's poor.

[Chris agus Snoop]

Time for kerry to clean up their act, discipline is shocking with the seniors and this gets passed down to the younger lads.

coming from a county where grabbing fellows by the throat, head butting lads in hurling, sly digs and verbals in every game etc is the norm and goes unpunished and who have bent every rule in the book to get players off, a manager who is famous only for grabbing a kerry legend by his nuts, going on strike to get their way, yeah sure you think anyone is going to be lectured by someone from Cork. You would need some scrubbing to clean up that Black Kettle and Pot that you normally keep in the Trophy cabinet !

Paul "the ripper"'s gouging shocked so many people in the GAA it caused them to include a new category of offense, and who is the first player to be banned under this? Another kerry man for headbutting. 

Youre completely deluded if you dont think you have a disipline problem and dont try and deflect the issue by going 30 yrs into the past. Already 2 kerry players suspended this year and only 3 games old, and the ripper hasn't even played yet. Another summer coming of deluded kerrymen ranting about the CCCC and conspiracy theories of jim corr proportions.

[Croí na hÉireann]

Have another go at that one.

[Kerry Mike]

Not the first time C&S has made a complete fool of himself/herself, lets see the details and facts behind this new catagory of offences???

[Chris agus Snoop]

Not the first time C&S has made a complete fool of himself/herself, lets see the details and facts behind this new catagory of offences???

The issue is kerrys displine problems and denial of same. And there was talk of having a new category for gouging offenses, but it was thought that the existing bans were enough. I thought that some ammendment was made but i was wrong. 
And youre scarcely in any position to condemn other posters with the nonsense you spew.

[johnpower]

Time for kerry to clean up their act, discipline is shocking with the seniors and this gets passed down to the younger lads.

coming from a county where grabbing fellows by the throat, head butting lads in hurling, sly digs and verbals in every game etc is the norm and goes unpunished and who have bent every rule in the book to get players off, a manager who is famous only for grabbing a kerry legend by his nuts, going on strike to get their way, yeah sure you think anyone is going to be lectured by someone from Cork. You would need some scrubbing to clean up that Black Kettle and Pot that you normally keep in the Trophy cabinet !

Paul "the ripper"'s gouging shocked so many people in the GAA it caused them to include a new category of offense, and who is the first player to be banned under this? Another kerry man for headbutting. 

Youre completely deluded if you dont think you have a disipline problem and dont try and deflect the issue by going 30 yrs into the past. Already 2 kerry players suspended this year and only 3 games old, and the ripper hasn't even played yet. Another summer coming of deluded kerrymen ranting about the CCCC and conspiracy theories of jim corr proportions.

Good man Chris  usual silly nonsense

[Lar Naparka]

I don't think Paidi was thinking in global terms when he composed that article. Empirical evidence may indeed suggest that rural depopulation and increased urbanisation is a sign of a developed country but material development isn't necessarily an improvement and, imo, there is considerable merit in what Paidi has to say.
He was thinking specifically of rural Ireland and the demise of the small country clubs.
What studies elsewhere may suggest is all very well but the problems those rural communities and, by extension, the GAA are facing are very real and have to be confronted.
A GAA club premises doubles up as a social centre in many small communities; much like the blacksmith's forge used to do in past generations.
Clubs are now facing not only the drift of members to urban areas and to the nearest airport but the bank manager is becoming increasingly less friendly and accommodating.
Clubs over-invested in the Celtic Tiger years and are now facing the consequences.  Higher costs and a lesser fundraising options are an unwelcome combination at any time.
The club, like the rural pub, served as a focus or at least a meeting point for the local population and I'm afraid that as material conditions improve people tend to become increasingly reserved and their social interaction decreases. Loneliness in the midst of plenty is commonplace.
I've really no idea what can be done to ease the threats to survival where such small clubs are in question but things can't continue as they are for much longer. For better or worse, the face of rural Ireland is undergoing rapid and far-reaching change.
Paidi thinks of the fate of the GAA in such areas and the loss of community spirit when those regions lose their most active and energetic young people. Certainly, larger urban clubs are doing quite—if evidence of material resources is the yardstick.
But the community ethos that underpinned the Association since its foundation is no longer there. The GAA will survive and prosper, as Paidi suggests, but it will be much changed in nature from what it was in his day and mine also.
There are a number of large clubs in Dublin that I know quite well.
When Peter Quinn, amongst others, undertook a major review of GAA structures in the Association some years ago, a few stark reminders that there was going to be trouble ahead emerged.
I'm somewhat fuzzy on the details but I recall it being stated that there were at that time five clubs in Dublin that each had more juveniles in action over the weekend than would be found in a total of five named counties!
Yet each of those superclubs fields one senior side only.
The drop out rate is appalling.
I could add that the percentage of the local community that is involved with small rural clubs is much higher than is the case where large urban ones are concerned. Big clubs may have more members and more resources but they draw from a much larger catchment area and face increased competition for the so-called hearts and minds of those they seek too attract.
Paidi is more than just a pretty face!
There is much to ponder over in what he writes.

[orangeman]

Páidí isn't around anymore and some clubs mightn't have long to live either. One in Derry, this weekend met to see if they were going to give it another go before folding. It's a real threat.


Counting the cost of survival

Emigration has left many clubs without enough adult players, writes Damian Lawlor


While emigration has brought a new lease of life to the GAA in foreign lands, losing players has had a devastating effect on rural communities at home
Damian Lawlor– 12 January 2014

TWO years ago Valentia GAA club submitted a motion to Kerry Congress which looked more like a plea for help than anything else.




The motion was simple in its wording, but its sheer candour caught the eye. It proposed that: 'The county board help small rural clubs to survive in these challenging economic times'. Survival. It's that stark out there.

"Existing is the only thing we're concentrating on now," says Valentia chairman John O'Sullivan. "There is talk of things picking up in Ireland -- well they are not picking up down here."

Kerry County Board chairman Patrick O'Sullivan sees little sign of things changing any time soon in the county.

"Out of all the counties on the western seaboard, Mayo and ourselves are the worst hit," he says. "We don't even have that much opportunity to go to Cork to find work because they've been hit too. Unless the IDA and Government come down and help us to stimulate some job creation, we will leak young people like there is no tomorrow.

"We are already trying to keep some of our county players at home; we're looking for a teaching job for one player and trying to find something for one or two more. But if the jobs don't come, we'll lose a generation and we needn't be thinking of winning an All-Ireland for ten years."

For any Kerry man or woman that's a bitter analysis to digest at the start of a new year.

John O'Sullivan feels the issues of unemployment, rural depopulation and emigration could potentially create more havoc than simply affect the Kingdom's chances of winning trophies. He has been banging a drum for the plight of clubs for years.

He's not looking for sympathy and points out that the people of Valentia are very resilient. They are being sorely tested, though -- in 2005 they won the South Kerry championship with a panel of 25, but last year they only had 14 adult footballers on their books. At under 14, 16 and minor level they join forces with Skellig Rangers but they want to hang on to their own identity at adult level for as long as possible.

With this in mind they submitted a proposal looking for 13-a-side games to be brought into effect two years ago, but the motion got nowhere.

Just before Christmas, however, another Kerry club, Tuosist, submitted the same motion and Valentia supported it. This time around the Kerry board indicated they may facilitate teams in Division 5 of their football league exploring the 13-a-side option.


Last year Tuosist were relegated to Division 5 after pulling out of Division 4 with three rounds left. Like Valentia, they know they are in for a struggle over the next couple of years.

"The relevant clubs will have to meet, see what they have at hand, and through communication with us and the teams they play against they could have the option of playing 13-a-side," confirmed Patrick O'Sullivan.

Further talks will be held in the coming weeks between the relevant parties but once again Kerry, who have done more than most counties to try and cope with ever-declining numbers, have led the way. With clubs all over Ireland struggling to field teams, it's only a matter of time before the concept of 13-a-side football becomes a hot topic.

"It's a huge step," Valentia's O'Sullivan says. "It may be only two players but to us that's massive. We feel this could be the start of something. The aim would be to get the 13-a-side motion in front of GAA Congress in the near future to help clubs like us. Maybe even next year.

"We have 17 players and we're just waiting to see if we lose one or two to the US this summer. It's tight enough but at least we have an option after years of fretting. Just let us compete and there will be no surrender from us."

The club chairman, however, also makes the point that the new black card ruling has inflicted further pressure on them.

"We were the first club around these parts to be really hit by numbers and we have been scraping teams together and barely getting by. Now there's the black card to contend with. Don't get me wrong, it's a good rule and it will stop cynical play, but what do we do? How are we going to go to north Kerry to play a game and cope if we don't have a panel of 16 or 17? You must have a panel and that's where we're caught."

At least the Kerry board can see that exploring the 13-a-side option for struggling clubs is a meaningful way of extending an arm of support. Clubs in Meath were less fortunate last week.

Despite a huge population influx over the last 15 years, there are still some clubs in Meath struggling to stitch adult teams together. Last week, at the county board's reconvened convention, one club submitted a motion to allow teams in the bottom division to seek permission to play 13-a-side league games when there is a difficulty fielding. The club was removed from the league last year after twice failing to field a team and so fell foul of the county's two strikes and you're out rule. Had the 13-a-side option been available the club says it would have fulfilled its fixtures in 2013. However, the proposal was shot down.

Some of the figures which have emerged from counties paint a pretty stark picture. Roscommon have lost 105 players in the last 18 months while almost 900 GAA players have left Clare and Limerick since 2008.

Fermanagh, with just 22 clubs, have serially managed to punch above their weight in Gaelic football, especially over the past decade, but they have seen 74 players transfer to clubs outside of the county in the past two years.

Tipperary, another county with big numbers to draw from, is also hit badly. A recent survey by the board revealed that 639 players from 72 clubs had left the county since July 2008 with only 40 per cent continuing to play abroad.

The hardest hit was the Cappawhite club in west Tipperary which lost 36 players with none returning.

In counties like Tipperary, especially in scenic areas like the Glen of Aherlow, planning permission processes are extremely complicated and have not helped stem the mass exodus of young players. Thus they are forced to move into towns, meaning that the GAA, a rural-based organisation, must now reassess the path forward at ground level.

This will surely mean bringing 13-a-side games into effect across the country over the next three to four years.

Relaxing the parish rule is another option. This rule demands that a player owes allegiance and loyalty to his home club and county. However, the problem with the 'principle of the parish' is that it is not in force across the board, which is a glaring weakness. Furthermore, where a club refuses to allow someone living in their parish to play with another club it can now be brought before the county board for adjudication.

As rural depopulation continues to grip the country, the rule needs to be looked at again. There's no problem with a player switching from a rural club to play for an urban club where he has a better chance of getting a job, or house, but there is absolutely no flow in the opposite direction. Flexibility is needed in some shape or form.

Perhaps here the GAA should immediately look to the Ladies Gaelic Football Association which has a novel solution to this problem. The LGFA also operates, strictly, the parish rule but there is also a rule which allows a player to play for another club if her own club cannot field in a particular year. Her original club retains her registration, so she essentially goes on loan to the other club until such time as her own club can field. This applies in all ages up to adult football and should be seriously considered by the GAA.

Amalgamation will continue to be a way of life, meanwhile, though many club leaders -- and top Croke Park officials themselves -- are wary of going down that road. John O'Sullivan says that it will be a last resort for Valentia.

"We will strive to keep our identity for as long as we possibly can. It's what defines us. It's what makes this ongoing struggle worthwhile."

GAA president Liam O'Neill has already warned clubs to be careful when they join forces. O'Neill, who established a rural communities group chaired by former GAA president Joe McDonagh, says he would like to see clubs hang on in there as long as possible and drive forward when the economic downturn ends.

"I'd counsel on amalgamations. I'd prefer to see it done from a position of relative strength rather than two clubs coming together because they both feel they're weak. The danger there is that the new club might be weak too," he said.

"I'd like to see clubs work their way through the current tough situation as best they can. Being there for the local community is very important at a time like this."

There's another issue that needs to be urgently looked at. For a large chunk of the summer, hundreds of club players are denied meaningful game time because inter-county managers and county boards suspend championship games for weeks at a time or, in Donegal's case, until the county team is out of the race for Sam Maguire. This has to stop.

There are 2,250 clubs affiliated to the GAA, and the least each of them deserves is to hang on to their own identity. In many cases, however, that is just not feasible anymore.

[theticklemister]

Club in derry as you said, which is Ogra Colmcille had their AGM and wilk continue to field at intermedate level this year.

[rosnarun]

is there any list of clubs that have folded in the last few years . may be we could have a GAA club RIP thread
in Mayo there have been a few Mergers at differen levels  esp u21 but i havent heard of any folding completley
Aprt from Keenagh  who got too good and were Cannabalised by Crossmolina

[The Raven]

In reality most counties have too many clubs. Here in Down we have 48 clubs but imo the GAA population can only support about 40. Areas like east Down, mournes and west Down around Banbridge are struggling for numbers at adult and especially juvenile teams. Even the county board at the recent convention suggested playing underage games down to 9 a side. Perhaps people need to swallow their pride and seriously think about amalgamation. Down through the years clubs have folded or amalgamated but true GAA people have adapted for the good of the game, hopefully this will continue

[orangeman]

What obligation is there, if any on the GAA to ensure that a club survives and desn't fold ? Would the GAA at county / national level for example come in and financially support a club that is struggling financially and at risk of folding due to lack of funds and/ or players ?