Doomsday+1

[full back]

With th new stadium being devloped in the north, and the possible re-unification in x amount of years the country would have 2 stadia in excess of 40,000 available for all three sports to avail of.

BC1 Dont get them started.Dont think Sammy & the boys will want to hear this!!

[SammyG]

With th new stadium being devloped in the north, and the possible re-unification in x amount of years the country would have 2 stadia in excess of 40,000 available for all three sports to avail of.

BC1 Dont get them started.Dont think Sammy & the boys will want to hear this!!

I've no problem with a shared stadium but there are currently no plans for a 40K plus capacity, in Northern Ireland/6 counties/the North.

The two current options are the Maze white elephant with 35K capacity or a Belfast stadium with either 25 or 30K capacity depending on which developer gets the go ahead. There has been talk about moveable stands, to increase capacity, at the Maze, but no one at the NIO or the Maze development panel have been able to explain how this will work or how much it will cost.

[robertemmet]

I think the GAA has to address the issue of the regularity of games for our players.  If you join an amateur Rugby/Soccer team you will have two things

1 – A well defined close season
2 – A game every week during the season

In the GAA there is no such thing as a close season.  It seems to go on forever and they still don't have regular games.  Until the GAA can address this problem they are always going to be fighting an uphill battle against Rugby/Soccer.

The fact that the season goes on for ever means that we are struggling to get volunteers to commit to a 12 month season.  Players cannot plan holidays/weddings/family events.

Also in Rugby/Soccer there is a defined day for games.  In Gaelic, games are chopped/changes/postponed all round the place and impossible for anyone to have a life outside of it.

Anyone any thoughts on this?

[brokencrossbar1]

That is part of the point I am trying to make Sammy.  The island of Ireland is too small to legitimise an 82k stadium in CP, an approx 50K Stadium at the New Landsdowne Road and a 35k Stadium in the North.  Outside of soccer the sporting fortunes of both parts of the island are intertwined and therefore a 35-40k stadium in the north, which would hold a sufficient number of rugby tests, soccer matches and gaelic matches along with an open CP for larger gaelic and rugby matches, would make much more sense than our patch, your patch and their patch.  If the soccer authorities are afraid that they could not fill a 40k stadium then maybe that is where the problem.  If two counties ie Dublin and Tyrone, can get 80k into Croke Park on a wet February evening surely NI would have ambitions to fill a 40k stadium in the next few years.

[Hardy]

BC - that's pretty much the scenario I'd favour. Actually, a better option, IMO, would be sale (to the government) and lease-back of CP, under preferential terms for GAA use of course. That would bring in even more money that could be very well used and would take the GAA out of the property business, where it shouldn't be distracting itself. But that would be a bridge too far for some, I fear.

As to whether your proposition is likely to happen, I haven't a clue. One theory is that the planning conditions for Lansdowne Road (to be anounced within a month, I think) may include  reduced capacity, to an extent that makes it unviable. In that scenario, one possibility might be a proposal along your lines. Whether it would fly would  presumably depend on the deal on offer to the GAA and the attitude of the membership when it came to a vote.

Perhaps a more likely outcome would be that the IRFU sells up and builds a stadium by a motorway somewhere.

[Billys Boots]

the IRFU sells up and builds a stadium by a motorway somewhere.

Abbotstown? 

[Hardy]

Has been mentioned. Again.

[SammyG]

That is part of the point I am trying to make Sammy.  The island of Ireland is too small to legitimise an 82k stadium in CP, an approx 50K Stadium at the New Landsdowne Road and a 35k Stadium in the North.  Outside of soccer the sporting fortunes of both parts of the island are intertwined and therefore a 35-40k stadium in the north, which would hold a sufficient number of rugby tests, soccer matches and gaelic matches along with an open CP for larger gaelic and rugby matches, would make much more sense than our patch, your patch and their patch.

As I've already said I've no problem with shared stadia, it makes sense on many levels. However there are very few rugby matches that would need 82K capacity (probably England and maybe Wales in the 6N but that's about it) and there are no RoI soccer matches that need anywhere near 82K (especially if they continue on their current downward path). That would mean a large number of matches 'rattling about' in CP which would affect atmosphere etc.

As far as north of the border is concerned, Ulster Rugby are the best supported team, in the Magners League and one of the best supported teams in Europe but they very rarely (about 3 or 4 times in the last 10 years) need anything above 15K capcity, nevermind 30 or 40K. The GAA have refused to say which games they will play at the new stadium and how many matches per year, would require that sort of capacity. The IFA even in the good times have never needed more than 25-30K except in very exceptional circumstances (40K the night we beat Israel to qualify for the world cup is the last time and that was 25 years ago).

[Skehana]

Fair point Sammy.I agree with you there.The North wouldn't need(on the whole) a stadium larger than 30-35k.On a slightly different issue,does anyone one know what the future plans are for Hill16? I've heard various rumours/stories about it's possible future.

[snatter]

SammyG - very forgetful, very thick or very stubborn?

I've no problem with a shared stadium but there are currently no plans for a 40K plus capacity, in Northern Ireland/6 counties/the North.

The two current options are the Maze white elephant with 35K capacity or a Belfast stadium with either 25 or 30K capacity depending on which developer gets the go ahead.

WRONG SammyG!

As already stated, the most recent proposal for the Maze is for a 35000 seater for ifa / irfu games and a 42000 seated/standing capacity for GAA.

Quote
Quote from: realredhandfan on Today at 12:31:23 PM
The Maze 40 ,000 all seater.
It's planned to be 35000 (all currently invisible and likely to stay that way.)

In the interest of correctness, (Sammy, surely you know this), the most recent proposal for the Maze is for a 35000 seater for ifa / irfu games and a 42000 seated/standing capacity for GAA.

And if you don't believe me:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6149096.stm

READ THE FIRST WORDS OF THE REPORT:
THE BBC HAS LEARNED THAT PLANS FOR A NEW SPORTS STADIUM AT THE MAZE HAVE BEEN REDRAWN

There's even a video (with sound) if you have trouble digesting printed words that you don't like.

Current Maze status:

The design team have taken the requirements and are now working on detailed plans to implement them:
See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6288213.stm

[SammyG]

SammyG - very forgetful, very thick or very stubborn?

Not sure why you chose to only use half of my quote. The second half (the bit you missed out) clearly states that there is talk of increased capacity for GAA but no plans/details of how this can be done or how much it will cost. You then quote two BBC articles which both say exactly what I just said, so I'm not sure what your problem is.

[snatter]

SammyG,

funny - you say there are

no plans/details

to provide dual capacity of 42k/35k.
You then say that you agree with the BBC report, the first line of which says

THAT PLANS FOR A NEW SPORTS STADIUM AT THE MAZE HAVE BEEN REDRAWN

.....

The new plan will see a 35,000 seater venue for soccer and rugby, but some seats would be removed to allow up to 12,000 GAA fans to stand.

The government hoped the new plans will accommodate fans from all three sports.

So there you have it Sammy. Just because you disagree with it, doesn't make it untrue.

In fact posters, read the article yourselves and make your own minds up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6149096.stm


Plan for new Maze stadium redrawn

The BBC has learned that plans for a new sports stadium at the Maze have been redrawn after talks with the three sports who would use the arena.

They were changed after a meeting with officials from the three sports - GAA, soccer and rugby - who will use it.

The new plan will see a 35,000 seater venue for soccer and rugby, but some seats would be removed to allow up to 12,000 GAA fans to stand.

The government hoped the new plans will accommodate fans from all three sports.

The original capacity for the proposed all-seater stadium was 30,000.

It was then increased to 42,000 largely to accommodate the GAA, but soccer fans were outraged claiming Northern Ireland international games would rarely, if ever, attract attendances of that size.

They argued that the atmosphere at games would suffer from there being so many empty seats.

Compromise

Now, as a compromise, there will be a 35,000 seat capacity for soccer and rugby games - while the stadium will be re-configured for GAA with 5,000 seats taken out and up to 12,000 fans being allowed to stand as is the case at Croke Park.

When contacted by the BBC a spokesman for the Department of Culture Arts and Leisure said: "Following the recent meeting of the Maze/Long Kesh monitoring group with the three main sports all stakeholders involved in the development of the site agreed the way forward for the stadium plan.

"This included the incorporation of seating and standing flexibility into the stadium design process. The second round design bids are due back on the 28 November and government expect to appoint the preferred bidder by Christmas."

It also hoped to seek expressions of interests for naming rights for the new stadium next month.

A number of international companies are understood to be interested.

The minister responsible for the Maze, David Hanson, said recently that a decision on whether or not the stadium would go ahead will not be made until the end of 2007.

Demolition of the Maze site is expected to be completed in November 2007.

Belfast City Council has a rival plan to build a 25,000 seat stadium at Ormeau Park.

Developers have been asked to submit final bids by the end of February and the Council says its hopes to be in a position to select a preferred developer by May.

[SammyG]

FFS Try reading what I typed and not what you think I typed.

I know that there has been an announcement about the new capacity and I have read the announcement. What hasn't happened yet is any details of how this new capacity can be achieved and how much this will cost? Until this info is available then he new capacity is just a wish nothing more.

If you have any details about the increase on capacity, feel free to let me know.

[brokencrossbar1]

Sammy, fair enough point about the ROI soccer team.  In fairness, I couldn't care less how many supporters they have or don't have.  If they have such failing numbers maybe they should look at the causes for it and begin building from scratch again and develop one of their club grounds to meet required standard.  

The point though about a stadium in the north is though more relevant. There is going to be a new stadium, no matter where it is and I think it should be made amenable and suitable for the 3 sports.  If the IFA cannot get 40k out to watch an international game well maybe there is something missing.  The GAA can regularly get in excess of 30k to Ulster championship matches and you are taking from a smaller pool than for a NI match.  If the NI soccer team is to be seen as a success it needs to have a more universal appeal and therefore issues, such as the perceived and apparent, sectarianism associated with it needs to be resolved.  I also believe that there will be an all Ireland soccer team in the future and if the team had a Stadium based in the North that would be a huge step forward for things both sporting and political.

As to your point about CP not being full for all rugby tests, you are essentially agreeing with me.  Croke Park would be full for say a Wales or an England game, but not for an Italy game.  It should therefore be played at the stadium in the North.  If Ulster had a big Heinekein Cup match(presuming it will still be in existence) it could be promoted more and played at the new stadium but the smaller games liek the Magners League could still be played at Ravenhill.  I think you are very myopic in your approach to the whole issue and only see it from a soccer point of view.  As regards the GAA not naming which games that will be played there, I would safely say that whatever games are played in the new stadium would be full houses and on a sufficient importance to make the venture a worthwhile one.


Hardy, the only thing that I see wrong with selling Croke Park is that once it is sold, that is it.  I think under my scenario if the GAA get sufficient funds back from the Government for agreeing to rent Croke Park to soccer and rugby on a long term basis, then they can use these monies to build up areas of the organisation that need work.  Maybe it is the farmer blood coming through in me but you should never sell land unless you have to.  Croke Park as it stands is not causing the GAA any hurt so it should be kept in th ename of the organisation.  This is not a sentimental attachment approach, it is a practical long term business view point.

[snatter]

Sammy,

funny - I read that you said there were no plans to increase the capacity to 42k/35k.
Even funnier, I recalled reading several press reports (thee bbc site was just one) which siad that original plans had been revised, and there were now new plans.

FFS, to make it easier for you to undersatand, i even highlighted the word plans in the BBC report.

Re

I know that there has been an announcement about the new capacity and I have read the announcement. What hasn't happened yet is any details of how this new capacity can be achieved and how much this will cost?

As previously stated, the outline plans have been given to the world class HOK design team.
See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6288213.stm

It is the design team's responsibility to create detailed plans that will implement the project requirements, one of which is the 42k/35k variable capacity.
I for one look forward to their publication.