Ulster President Aogan Farrell. "Appoint Managers from within your own club"

[DuffleKing]

If that's the case then they won't get it, the club won't be out the expense and everyone's happy. I know a few decent coaches. They all have managed club sides but are dear. None need the money. Their outlook is that if they're going to give a foreign club their time, effort and expertise then they will charge accordingly, but if its too dear they're happy to play more golf etc.

Costs are dictated by the market. The rates you refer to as a disgrace exist because clubs pay them. If you want to debate how clubs waste money on bad / needless coaches then that's a different argument

[Zulu]

So it seems that most lads are in favour of appointing from within, hardstation even appears to suggest a club should appoint a local man even if he isn't any good. While I agree that it is preferential to appoint a club man, I think it is utter nonsense to appoint men who aren't capable of doing the job simply because they want it. There are also many sweeping generalisations about outside managers that are often inaccurate, gems like they are less successful than a local man is a dubious claim. Or that they don't care for the club or it's underage structures is also often incorrect.

If your putting an extension on to your house, you should find out about the ability of the builder you're hiring and how much is reasonable for the job. Same applies to hiring an outside coach, offer what you can afford and get someone with a good reputation (and find out if it's justified). But it's time to leave this issue rest, the job of a manager/coach is far more than what it used to be and the level of preparation and knowledge that players expect is far more than what many can provide. I won't say managers/coaches 'deserve' to be paid but good ones bring a level of expertise that warrants payment in the same way the club physio or doctor does. You don't have to like it but people should stop complaining about it until they can find a solution that satisfies everyone and you won't do that.

Zulu you would want to acquaint yourself with what the asking price is for average coaches before slagging clubs off. In the current economic climate what even good coaches are asking for in the current economic climate is nothing short of a disgrace.

Duffleking has covered most of your points Indiana in his response and would wholeheartedly agree with him. I don't see where I slagged off clubs in my post but the point I was making was that if clubs don't have anyone capable of doing the job then have to go outside for him. If that costs money then I think a qualified candidate is entitled to it as much as the club physio and in both cases the club should ensure they are paying what they can afford and the coach is worth it.

[INDIANA]

If that's the case then they won't get it, the club won't be out the expense and everyone's happy. I know a few decent coaches. They all have managed club sides but are dear. None need the money. Their outlook is that if they're going to give a foreign club their time, effort and expertise then they will charge accordingly, but if its too dear they're happy to play more golf etc.

Costs are dictated by the market. The rates you refer to as a disgrace exist because clubs pay them. If you want to debate how clubs waste money on bad / needless coaches then that's a different argument

Its the same argument. These coaches are happy to bankrupt clubs. You cant blame a club for wanting to be successful. thats the nature of the GAA and how strongly these members feel that they will beg, borrow and steal to get success. You end up with these jokers who couldnt train a monkey charging extortionate prices and then riding off into the sunset leaving a mess behind. Most of them are pirates in my view.

[DuffleKing]

Surely you understand that its a nonsense to blame coaches for what clubs pay them?

I will manage your club.  I will give you my expertise and my every waking thought. I can't guarantee you success but you know my record and have spoken to people who have played under me. All I can guarantee you is my best.

For me to sacrafice three evenings a week away from the kids and half my working days contacting physios, players and arranging training / games, I will need X a week. If that's too much I understand but to justfy pouring my time and energy into a club other than my own I will have to take the wife and kids away for a good holiday at the end of the year. Again, I understand its not hunble money for any club but it won't be worth it for me otherwise and no hard feelings if you want to go another direction.

You're argumment is that this coach should be made to do the job for half price? Less?

[Zulu]

Most of them are pirates in my view.

Not true, though there are some but this is another sweeping generalisation that doesn't help reasoned discussion on topics like this. Again Duffleking makes a good point, in order for a good outside coach to take your club he may need to paid, it's up to you whether you pay it or not.

Most people don't buy cars they can't afford and if clubs are responsible they won't attempt to recruit coaches they can't afford. If a guy isn't any good then you should know this before you take him on and if he is the only option you should pay him according to his ability.

Outside managers are here to stay because managers/coaches are expected to be of a much higher level than before. It only follows therefore that less people can deliver this quality. As a result, clubs will pay to get the best of these coaches into their clubs. the way forward is not to demonise our best coaches but to regulate it and set reasonable rates that all teams must adhere to.

[fitzroyalty]

IMO a club should only pay for a coach if he makes the training of that club his priority. If he can't commit himself to that i.e. has a wife and kids to worry about or his golf handicap then he's not fit for the job. Indiana you refer to these coaches being pirates and I can see where you are coming from, but surely a club can cop on to whether they're getting VFM. If they aren't, send him packing.

The club I referred to at the start of the thread are now seeking a new senior manager AFAIK, the outsider they had wasn't willing to stay for a second term because he felt he wasn't getting the right committment from the players. So it can work both ways, maybe a different outsider would say sod this I don't care, so long as I'm still getting paid.

[DuffleKing]

The point is fitz, you are asking the coach to swap / sacrafice his family and leisure time for time managing your club. That costs money in any man's book.

[Zulu]

IMO a club should only pay for a coach if he makes the training of that club his priority. If he can't commit himself to that i.e. has a wife and kids to worry about or his golf handicap then he's not fit for the job.

So he has to be single and have no other interests, does that apply for a local man too? Most coaches that are being paid and are any good would give the necessary commitment to the club and good coaches won't hang around in clubs which haven't the drive to succeed.

In a perfect world we wouldn't have outside coaches and none of them would be getting anything beyond normal expenses but that isn't the reality. Dealing with the real world is always a better option than complaining about the real world and wishing it were different. Finding the balance between clubs getting value for money and coaches being appropriately rewarded is the only way forward IMO.

[fitzroyalty]

The point is fitz, you are asking the coach to swap / sacrafice his family and leisure time for time managing your club. That costs money in any man's book.

I recognise that...but if these guys are going to apply for positions they'll be aware of the sacrafices that need to be made, otherwise they wouldn't put in for them. My view is that they'll be football men. They'll want to be still involved in the game. They'll want a challenge. They'll want success. Yes they'll deserve payment of some sort but if they're going to play this "i've my wife and kids, family, etc, pay me more" then they can go jump.

Zulu, see above. There are plenty of bachelors out there anyway not that that is a necessity. Coaching a team isn't a full time job anyway, so that point about other interests is slightly irrelevant.

[DuffleKing]

No fitz. I realize your own club hasn't gone down the road of an outside man too often but if you don't have anyone capable within your membership, you will be going looking someone who can. headhunting if you like. outsiders - particularly capable ones -  are not going to apply for a club job.

[fitzroyalty]

No fitz. I realize your own club hasn't gone down the road of an outside man too often but if you don't have anyone capable within your membership, you will be going looking someone who can. headhunting if you like. outsiders - particularly capable ones -  are not going to apply for a club job.

True. But clubs do advertise and that's what I was referring to. The scenario you refer to is different and in that case I'd be in agreement with you.

[andoireabu]

If coaches can claim money for travelling then how long will it be until players can?  i remember a story that Niall Cahalane's young fella travelling a large distance because he lived away from his club.  is he entitled to repayment of his expenses or is it his own choice to do the driving so sod him?  i know there is a difference between him playing for his own club and an outside coach taking a club but what is the difference in him volunteering his time and money to play the game and a coach taking a team. should he not voluteer also?

Also what makes these fella's worth their money? is there any courses out there for coaching or is it just reputation that gets them an outside job?

[Zulu]

Zulu, see above. There are plenty of bachelors out there anyway not that that is a necessity. Coaching a team isn't a full time job anyway, so that point about other interests is slightly irrelevant.

I think this is slightly off topic, but the point remains that coaching a team involves a serious time commitment, level of football and physical preparation know-how and certain personality traits. Not everyone brings this to the table and therefore clubs will seek those who can. There are probably no more than a handful of really good coaches/managers in any county, so those that are will be highly sought and can, justifiably, seek remuneration for what is a serious undertaking. If a club pays a chancer the same as they'd pay a quality coach then the fault lies with the club and nobody else.

If coaches can claim money for travelling then how long will it be until players can?

Will never happen but players do get travelling expenses and they more than cover the cost of their petrol. But we all know clubs can't afford to pay 8 or 9 players to travel home and they are doing it for their own club, the outside coach is not.

i remember a story that Niall Cahalane's young fella travelling a large distance because he lived away from his club.  is he entitled to repayment of his expenses or is it his own choice to do the driving so sod him?

He lives in Cork city but plays football for Castlehaven in west Cork and I'd say it was at the insistence of his Dad who is a selector. He plays hurling for the Barrs in the city so it isn't the same thing at all.

i know there is a difference between him playing for his own club and an outside coach taking a club but what is the difference in him volunteering his time and money to play the game and a coach taking a team. should he not voluteer also?

Yes, but we are taking about an outside coach. I don't know of any coach who charges his own club but if he does it for another club why shouldn't he get paid, should you volunteer your time to man the bar, cut the grass or put up the nets in neighbouring clubs (and beyond) for free?

Also what makes these fella's worth their money? is there any courses out there for coaching or is it just reputation that gets them an outside job?

Yes, there are and the GAA want to arrive at a situation where you must have certain coaching qualifications in order to coach at different levels. But for now, reputation and experience matter more and this should be enough for clubs to gage a man's suitability for a coaching job.

[Celt_Man]

So it seems that most lads are in favour of appointing from within, hardstation even appears to suggest a club should appoint a local man even if he isn't any good. While I agree that it is preferential to appoint a club man, I think it is utter nonsense to appoint men who aren't capable of doing the job simply because they want it. There are also many sweeping generalisations about outside managers that are often inaccurate, gems like they are less successful than a local man is a dubious claim. Or that they don't care for the club or it's underage structures is also often incorrect.

If your putting an extension on to your house, you should find out about the ability of the builder you're hiring and how much is reasonable for the job. Same applies to hiring an outside coach, offer what you can afford and get someone with a good reputation (and find out if it's justified). But it's time to leave this issue rest, the job of a manager/coach is far more than what it used to be and the level of preparation and knowledge that players expect is far more than what many can provide. I won't say managers/coaches 'deserve' to be paid but good ones bring a level of expertise that warrants payment in the same way the club physio or doctor does. You don't have to like it but people should stop complaining about it until they can find a solution that satisfies everyone and you won't do that.

Excellent post - agree 100%

[Etienne Lantier]

I think this is slightly off topic, but the point remains that coaching a team involves a serious time commitment, level of football and physical preparation know-how and certain personality traits. Not everyone brings this to the table and therefore clubs will seek those who can. There are probably no more than a handful of really good coaches/managers in any county, so those that are will be highly sought and can, justifiably, seek remuneration for what is a serious undertaking. If a club pays a chancer the same as they'd pay a quality coach then the fault lies with the club and nobody else.

Woudl the exact same argument not work just as well for a high scoring forward? Not every club has them, should they just be allowed to pay some guy to come in and stick the ball over the bar for them?