Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.

[Evil Genius]

OWC brigade would rather not take part in the Euros than play the Euros in West Belfast, its the most glorious self-own fathomable.

How many NI fans have you spoken to about this? I'm guessing somewhere between none and zero.

For the record, whatever our reservations on a number of levels, this NI fan would rather play in Casement than not participate at all and I am very confident that the great majority of my fellow fans would say the same, even if with some reservations.

But hey, if you want you reinforces your own obvious, deeply seated prejudices about "themmuns", I don't suppose anything I say will change your mind. Congratulations.


(Incidentally I am no great fan of GSTK and don't sing it myself at NI games, but the opportunity to hear it being played at Casement before our games would nearly make it worth it on its own!  )

[Saffrongael]

OWC brigade would rather not take part in the Euros than play the Euros in West Belfast, its the most glorious self-own fathomable.

How many NI fans have you spoken to about this? I'm guessing somewhere between none and zero.

For the record, whatever our reservations on a number of levels, this NI fan would rather play in Casement than not participate at all and I am very confident that the great majority of my fellow fans would say the same, even if with some reservations.

But hey, if you want you reinforces your own obvious, deeply seated prejudices about "themmuns", I don't suppose anything I say will change your mind. Congratulations.


(Incidentally I am no great fan of GSTK and don't sing it myself at NI games, but the opportunity to hear it being played at Casement before our games would nearly make it worth it on its own!  )

You don't need to have spoke to them, enough of them spoke for themselves in "vox pops" over the last few months & there were also the chants and flags at Windsor.

[Evil Genius]

Or rather, is it the understanding the ongoing maintenance burden would place on the Ulster Council?

Looking at the 2024 annual report here, and the expenses for Croke in year ending 30th Sept 2023 (page 194/195) were in around €16 million.

Some of those will be dependent on numbers of games played, and some will be independent of it.
Could probably approximate half of it as being independent of times the stadium was open, or €8 million.

Croke is 80k, Casement 30k - factored down for size that is €3 million a year. Just to keep the place right.

Even if we accepted Croke would have a higher proportion of business seats/exec boxes etc, your still likely looking at over €1m a year.

That is untenable for the Ulster Council!

So you run one large scale event to cover the running costs.

Hang on.

The original £62m funding - delegated to Stormont btw, who were required to ring fence it - was actually the GAA's share of The Maze Stadium money. That is, it was required to be used purely for sporting purposes, not conferencing or concerts etc, as was the case with both Soccer and Rugby.

Moreover, to provide public funding for this type of event would constitute unfair competition with other venues, whether privately owned, or Council owned (Boucher, Ormeau, Odyssey etc).

So that at the very least, any profit which ensued from non-sporting events should in principle be returned to Stormont. 

[Evil Genius]

You don't need to have spoke to [NI fans], enough of them spoke for themselves in "vox pops" over the last few months & there were also the chants and flags at Windsor.

You know how the media work: someone expressing a reasoned and reasonable view is of little interest to them, instead they go for the biggest bucket-mouth they can find, whether it be Jamie Bwyson or Joe Brolly on the Nolan Show.

But as someone who knows and talks to ordinary NI fans all the time, while we all have reservations to one degree or other - hence the flags and chants at Windsor (from a minority on the Kop btw) - if it ever came to it, we would still go to Casement to follow our team. It's what is known as being a "fan".

But hey, even after 50+ years of following the team home and abroad at literally hundreds of games, what do I know about NI fans, at least compared with an expert like you?   

[Saffrongael]

You don't need to have spoke to [NI fans], enough of them spoke for themselves in "vox pops" over the last few months & there were also the chants and flags at Windsor.

You know how the media work: someone expressing a reasoned and reasonable view is of little interest to them, instead they go for the biggest bucket-mouth they can find, whether it be Jamie Bwyson or Joe Brolly on the Nolan Show.

But as someone who knows and talks to ordinary NI fans all the time, while we all have reservations to one degree or other - hence the flags and chants at Windsor (from a minority on the Kop btw) - if it ever came to it, we would still go to Casement to follow our team. It's what is known as being a "fan".

But hey, even after 50+ years of following the team home and abroad at literally hundreds of games, what do I know about NI fans, at least compared with an expert like you?   

Never said I was an expert, just commenting on what I have seen and heard - sure what else can you do ?

[Evil Genius]

A significant multi purpose building such as the one designed would have income streams built in and wouldn't be the financial burden that the poster above was referring too. (If run properly of course)

"If run properly of course".

Er, have you been watching Ulster GAA's performance on this matter over the 14 years since this project was first proposed? 

[Evil Genius]

You don't need to have spoke to [NI fans], enough of them spoke for themselves in "vox pops" over the last few months & there were also the chants and flags at Windsor.

You know how the media work: someone expressing a reasoned and reasonable view is of little interest to them, instead they go for the biggest bucket-mouth they can find, whether it be Jamie Bwyson or Joe Brolly on the Nolan Show.

But as someone who knows and talks to ordinary NI fans all the time, while we all have reservations to one degree or other - hence the flags and chants at Windsor (from a minority on the Kop btw) - if it ever came to it, we would still go to Casement to follow our team. It's what is known as being a "fan".

But hey, even after 50+ years of following the team home and abroad at literally hundreds of games, what do I know about NI fans, at least compared with an expert like you?   

Never said I was an expert, just commenting on what I have seen and heard - sure what else can you do ?

What else?

How about listening to someone who does know a fair bit about it, instead of dickheads like Bryson or Allister.

[Evil Genius]

Do all major infrastructure projects have to be immediate money-spinners or does the bigger picture not feature at all?

Don't have to be "money spinners", breaking even would do.

But if they should lose money - see eg Pairc Ui Chaoimh - who picks up the tag?

In principle it shouldn't be Stormont, since they'll already have done enough by funding it, since there would be no onus on the GAA to avoid losses. Meaning that it would HAVE to be the GAA.

Are you confident that they could manage it properly? And even if they could, are you certain that this project is inherently capable of "washing its own face"?

And if the answer to either of those questions is "no", could the GAA sustain another (potentially large) loss making venture on top of Pairc Ui Chaoimh (and any others I may be unaware of)? 

[Evil Genius]

Do all major infrastructure projects have to be immediate money-spinners or does the bigger picture not feature at all?

You also have to view the project through orange or green filtered glasses..

Orange filtered glasses would see a bridge to scotland as a pure necessity and stimulate growth, but see nothing of value in building a world class stadium in their capital city as it would belong to themmuns.

Green glasses would be the total opposites and hence why we can't have nice things.

Anyone for a bridge over Strangford Lough?

No, you don't have to, rather some people choose to. Which is a major factor behind this present clusterfuck, much of which could be avoided if all the people involved looked at it through sporting and financial glasses.

Meanwhile, like (ahem) Sir Keir Starmer, it is up to each of us to decide which glasses we don, and where we get them from. 

[Hectic]

Lot of people seem to forget, or not realise, that these large infrastructure projects already have an economic boost before they are even opened.

Especially when you are talking concrete, steel, labour, planning, interior finishing etc etc. And the local area can cater for most needs of a modern stadium construction project.

So not matter what cost they come at, a good amount of that money moves through the local economy.

But there is also a need to build what is appropriate and look to do it in an economical enough manner. 

As with money spent on a stadium, other capital projects are needed and have the same trickle down effect.

For me the type of stadium that is now not being delivered was not even needed in the first place, beyond meeting Euro specifications.

Of course there was a big sectarian element in some of the noises against.

But a common sense approach sees a suitable facility with a good pitch, covered stands with some seating, some terracing, usual office and comfort facilities and some sort of catering/hospitality.

Of course this will cost more than the figures of ten years ago because most things work/construction have been heavily inflated.  But should still be possible a long long way off £400m.

[6th sam]

You don't need to have spoke to [NI fans], enough of them spoke for themselves in "vox pops" over the last few months & there were also the chants and flags at Windsor.

You know how the media work: someone expressing a reasoned and reasonable view is of little interest to them, instead they go for the biggest bucket-mouth they can find, whether it be Jamie Bwyson or Joe Brolly on the Nolan Show.

But as someone who knows and talks to ordinary NI fans all the time, while we all have reservations to one degree or other - hence the flags and chants at Windsor (from a minority on the Kop btw) - if it ever came to it, we would still go to Casement to follow our team. It's what is known as being a "fan".

But hey, even after 50+ years of following the team home and abroad at literally hundreds of games, what do I know about NI fans, at least compared with an expert like you?   

Aye "the silent majority", actually the very  silent majority. I'm surprised that such widely held "we'll play anywhere " views were not vocalised on any form of media at any time by NI fans.
I'm glad casement isn't going ahead for the Euros , as I think there is a better option. But the unbridled joy by NI fans (not supporters) is ugly , sad and dumbfounding for me.
This approach is insulting to many NI players at various levels , and it's a throwback to the anti-Irish racism directed towards Neil Lennon , Anton Rogan and the ROI soccer team. Windsor Park, GSTK, flags, anti-casement banners. The internationally binding GFA, gave equal status to Britishness and Irishness  in this place, yet the representative soccer team's fans (not supporters) clearly promote only Britishness. Unionism is an understandable and worthy ethos , but the anti-Irish sentiment promoted or at least tolerated by many unionists , is ugly , and short-sighted , as you're going to have to come to an accommodation , EG. Unfortunately for unionism , the opportunity to have that accommodation in an NI context has gone. Unionism has had a 100 years to try to make this engineered sectarian state work , but it's just getting worse , as the obstructionism and then triumphalism over Casement illustrates, yet again. Call it patriotism,unneighbourliness, sectarianism, racism or whatever you want , but it's ugly.
EG, don't call yourself a NI "supporter " when you insult a large section of your players , who have an affinity to the GAA.
You're an articulate poster and no doubt you'll concoct an impressive response but how about reflecting on insulting your own players  , and shooting your team in the foot , and closing the door on another generation of potential supporters from an Irish background

[Evil Genius]

My preferred choice would have been a shared stadium for all 3 major sports. If not on Maze/Long Kesh then Titanic Quarter. It was DUP & NI fans that didn't want that.

Regarding The Maze Stadium, Ulster Rugby were hardly bothered, saying that Ravenhill would still be their HQ, but they might play the odd big game there should the need arise. (As it happens, there have been very few of those indeed in the years since).

Meanwhile the IFA's stance was that they were firmly in favour - but only because FIFA/UEFA were insistent that the old Windsor was imminently to be banned from staging internationals, meaning they would have to be played outside NI.

While the GAA was actually ambivalent i.e. if the government was paying for it, then as a "free shot", they might play at it but only when it suited. On which point, it was they who declared that it must have a 48k capacity (far too big for soccer or rugby btw), rather than the originally proposed 40k.

Meanwhile, the great majority of NI fans were indeed strongly opposed, but for a variety of reasons eg capacity far too big; wrong location; nothing nearby; zero public transport options; far from the games traditional heartland; the need for size for GAA games offering dreadful sightlines for Soccer etc etc etc.

As for the DUP, well yes, they were opposed*, but in the end it should never have been a political matter either way, whether DUP or SF etc, rather a sporting and financial one.

On which latter point, the sole reason why the plug was pulled on The Maze Stadium was NOTHING to do with any of the above. Rather it was because the Civil Service's accountants at Stormont concluded that there was no way this White Elephant could ever pay its way but instead would be a serious burden on the taxpayer for decades to come.

And they were absolutely right, thank goodness. 


* - Not exclusively, of course, since eg a certain Edwin Poots was very strongly in favour. You can probably guess within whose constituency the Maze lies...

[Evil Genius]

Tánaiste priming the parish pump

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2024/0917/1470516-martin-cork-euros/

Be great craic if it was designated as the IFA's home stadium.
Would serve their bigoted followers right

"Páirc Uí Chaoimh could host Euro 2028 games, says Tánaiste"

No it could not, for countless reasons.

Enough said.

[Evil Genius]

Puc would need a hell of a lot of cash thrown at it to bring it up to UEFA standards. The knocking down the old terracing and replacing it with identical terracing at great expense was absolute lunacy

Indeed.

In fact it would effectively have to be rebuilt completely, otherwise there is about as much chance of my back garden hosting Euro games as PUC!

And if anyone should wonder why I am so confident in stating this, then they only have to read UEFA's Tournament Requirements document for the last Euro's in 2024. It is 190 pages long, of which 98 pages refer to stadium provision:
https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/OfficialDocument/uefaorg/Regulations/02/46/30/61/2463061_DOWNLOAD.pdf
(Sector 6, page 48 onwards)

That should shorten the winter for yiz 

[weareros]

Puc would need a hell of a lot of cash thrown at it to bring it up to UEFA standards. The knocking down the old terracing and replacing it with identical terracing at great expense was absolute lunacy

Indeed.

In fact it would effectively have to be rebuilt completely, otherwise there is about as much chance of my back garden hosting Euro games as PUC!

And if anyone should wonder why I am so confident in stating this, then they only have to read UEFA's Tournament Requirements document for the last Euro's in 2024. It is 190 pages long, of which 98 pages refer to stadium provision:
https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/OfficialDocument/uefaorg/Regulations/02/46/30/61/2463061_DOWNLOAD.pdf
(Sector 6, page 48 onwards)

That should shorten the winter for yiz 

Could you share it with the "Shove Casement..." Gary McAllister who seems to think Windsor Park was ever an option.