AISF 2010: Corcaigh vs Áth Cliath

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

And if a provincial winner were to win a QF and then lose a semi should they get a second chance. Provincial winners have a trophy. That puts then ahead of at least 28 other counties - is that not enough for ye.

I've said enough about this on other threads, so to summarise: if not one of the 4 best teams in their provinces makes it through to the semis, either a) some teams don't give a toss about the Provincials, in which case they're worse than useless, or b) the Qualifiers' route is a distinct advantage.

"if not one of the 4 best teams in their provinces makes it through to the semis" - either they are not as good as they were reputed to be or the didn't have the discipline, focus and mental strenght to get back to work after their provincial success.

Come on, are you really saying that the regularity of the extra games in the Qualifiers does not play a part here (the stats don't back that assertion up)? I'll repeat: the Provincials are not an optional competition, they're an intrinsic part of the All-Ireland, and always have been. The prerequisite for the run in the Qualifiers is to lose a game; some prerequisite.

Every team, bar the Provincial winners, every single team has one opportunity to lose, just one. Is that a fair system, i.e., you're penalised for winning? The Quarter Finals were introduced to faciliate the re-entry of losers, yet even though the Provincial winners have to negotiate this extra hurdle they alone do not have the luxury of a loss. That's c**k-eyed.

Every team bar the provincial winner has to this point in the year nothing to show for their efforts, and only in this pretty unusual year are we assured that one other will.  It's pretty simple - success or second chance - you can't, and shouldn't, have both.

"Success or second chance not both", but success is an All-Ireland ultimately, not a Provincal, so I'd agree with you, therefore it's currently c**k-eyed.

You claim that this year is pretty unusual, but it was an inevitability, and it will become more commonplace (unless the structure is tweaked) as more teams opt out of the Provincials by voluntarily losing, or at least not being particularly bothered about winning (it has already happened this year). Qualifiers have won the last three All-Irelands (including 2010), would you (and folk of a similar mindset) have predicted that in 2007, and are you happy about that? To me it stinks because it patently demonstrates that the most profitable path to SAM is the Qualifiers.

We're already a unique organisation, we don't need the further distinction of having our premier competition predisposed towards losing teams, because that's where we currently are.

[dowling]

Thought the Dubs were hard done by and so many soft frees given against them the last ten or fifteen minutes. I made a point last year about a Cork hurling match that Cork seemed to find it easier to get frees and the same applied yesterday. Didn't think it was a penalty either.
On another note I cannot understand why so many are anti-Dubs here (apart from the WUMs of course). Surely the stronger the GAA is in the capital city the stronger the GAA is overall.

[The Aristocrat]

Threw it way. Heartbroken again, not as bad as Mayo 06 but bad all the same. So close but yet so far !

Best thing about GAA thats theres always next year 

With all due respect to Down and Kildare, two very good teams and good gaels, Cork will win it now.

Up the Dubs.

[DuffleKing]

Threw it way. Heartbroken again, not as bad as Mayo 06 but bad all the same. So close but yet so far !

Best thing about GAA thats theres always next year 

With all due respect to Down and Kildare, two very good teams and good gaels, Cork will win it now.

Up the Dubs.

Not so sure about that. Probably down and definitely Kildare are better teams than Dublin and should be capable of producing a performance to beat cork in an all ireland final. That cork were the best team in the last 4 is of little doubt but haven't been playing. as the dubs showed, any of the 3 are capable of beating cork if they continue to play as they are with no gameplan and little direction. also, from what i've seen probably down and definitely kildare are fitter and more disciplined in the tackle than the dubs to do a number on cork.

[jas376]

Thought the Dubs were hard done by and so many soft frees given against them the last ten or fifteen minutes. I made a point last year about a Cork hurling match that Cork seemed to find it easier to get frees and the same applied yesterday. Didn't think it was a penalty either.


                               Get yourself straight down to Specsavers right now if you didn't think it was a penalty!!

[dowling]

To be honest I thought Ross McConnell's strength held ONeill up and in his attempt to barge through ONeill lost his balance and the two of them went down. There was a lot worse out the field with no frees. Thought the Dubs could have had one or two towards the end but didn't get them. Would have given them an opportunity of a score or to take the sting out of Cork's play. I haven't seen a re run of the game but was there a Cork man yelling in the ref's face as the 'penalty' incident was happening?

[Croí na hÉireann]

To be honest I thought Ross McConnell's strength held ONeill up and in his attempt to barge through ONeill lost his balance and the two of them went down. There was a lot worse out the field with no frees. Thought the Dubs could have had one or two towards the end but didn't get them. Would have given them an opportunity of a score or to take the sting out of Cork's play. I haven't seen a re run of the game but was there a Cork man yelling in the ref's face as the 'penalty' incident was happening?

O'Neil was trying to go around McConnell & McConnell just wrapped his arms around him and drove forward for reasons best known to him, stonewall penalty, was talking to loads of Dubs yesterday and they all agreed it was a definite pen...

[gallsman]

FOSB, I haven't read this thread in its entirety or seen your comments about provincial vs. qualifiers route, but what I would like to know is how any Tyrone man can support Mickey Harte's position given that Tyrone have won two All-Irelands in the last five  years through the back door.

[saffron sam2]

Football bores me.

It's all about getting as close to goal as possible and then falling over and conning the referee into awarding a free.

Bernard Brogan should be presented with Sam now.

Cork and Maurice Deegan can feck off.

[jas376]

To be honest I thought Ross McConnell's strength held ONeill up and in his attempt to barge through ONeill lost his balance and the two of them went down. There was a lot worse out the field with no frees. Thought the Dubs could have had one or two towards the end but didn't get them. Would have given them an opportunity of a score or to take the sting out of Cork's play. I haven't seen a re run of the game but was there a Cork man yelling in the ref's face as the 'penalty' incident was happening?

   O.K. fair argument and sorry about the Specsavers comment - it was rude, I admit. I just thought that that the initial contact that McConnell made on O Neill was excessive and too high. The rules of tackling say that a player can only try to disposses the player in posession by using  one hand. A fair shoulder to shoulder is the only other bodily cotact allowed- but I'm from Cork so maybe I'm biased!!!

[robbiegael]

The 'best team' lost this one - the penalty [definite pen] was the key moment as there was no way Cork were ever going to score a goal.

But Dublin fans should take heart as Dublin are much improved outfit and I think this team can win an all-Ireland in the next year or two. Definitely the best Dublin team I have watched since 1995.

[dowling]

Ah no wories about the specsavers Jas. It's the insults from those other boys - and they know who they are - that really hurt me.
As I said I haven't seen a replay yet but my inital thought was that OConnell had strong arms -outstretched - and ONeill couldn't get past. ONeill was the one to lose his balance causing the two of them to fall. I know there's a pic of OConnell's arms around ONeill but I'm guessing that was as they were starting to fall. Whether I'm right or wrong it wasn't the most 'blatant' foul ever and many a referee would have played on.
I might have a different view when I see it again.
Apart from that did you not think Cork got a couple of very soft frees near the end?

[David McKeown]

And if a provincial winner were to win a QF and then lose a semi should they get a second chance. Provincial winners have a trophy. That puts then ahead of at least 28 other counties - is that not enough for ye.

I've said enough about this on other threads, so to summarise: if not one of the 4 best teams in their provinces makes it through to the semis, either a) some teams don't give a toss about the Provincials, in which case they're worse than useless, or b) the Qualifiers' route is a distinct advantage.

"if not one of the 4 best teams in their provinces makes it through to the semis" - either they are not as good as they were reputed to be or the didn't have the discipline, focus and mental strenght to get back to work after their provincial success.

Come on, are you really saying that the regularity of the extra games in the Qualifiers does not play a part here (the stats don't back that assertion up)? I'll repeat: the Provincials are not an optional competition, they're an intrinsic part of the All-Ireland, and always have been. The prerequisite for the run in the Qualifiers is to lose a game; some prerequisite.

Every team, bar the Provincial winners, every single team has one opportunity to lose, just one. Is that a fair system, i.e., you're penalised for winning? The Quarter Finals were introduced to faciliate the re-entry of losers, yet even though the Provincial winners have to negotiate this extra hurdle they alone do not have the luxury of a loss. That's c**k-eyed.

Every team bar the provincial winner has to this point in the year nothing to show for their efforts, and only in this pretty unusual year are we assured that one other will.  It's pretty simple - success or second chance - you can't, and shouldn't, have both.

"Success or second chance not both", but success is an All-Ireland ultimately, not a Provincal, so I'd agree with you, therefore it's currently c**k-eyed.

You claim that this year is pretty unusual, but it was an inevitability, and it will become more commonplace (unless the structure is tweaked) as more teams opt out of the Provincials by voluntarily losing, or at least not being particularly bothered about winning (it has already happened this year). Qualifiers have won the last three All-Irelands (including 2010), would you (and folk of a similar mindset) have predicted that in 2007, and are you happy about that? To me it stinks because it patently demonstrates that the most profitable path to SAM is the Qualifiers.

We're already a unique organisation, we don't need the further distinction of having our premier competition predisposed towards losing teams, because that's where we currently are.

Im with FOSB on this one and think the qualifiers need tweaked or ended.  This year 6 teams will have lost only once in the championship, however only one of them will be All Ireland champions and 5 of them will have been eliminated after their only loss.  To me that is unfair.  It was mentioned earlier that the Qualifiers represent a much longer path to Sam but they don't necessarily.  For example if you get drawn in the Preliminary round in Ulster and lose you are 4 wins away from an All Ireland quarter final, if you win Ulster from the preliminary round you will also have won 4 games to reach the All Ireland quarters.  That is without even considering the position in Munster.

Ive always liked Mickey Harte's proposition that the provincial winners play off against each other.  The two winners go into the semi final of the All Ireland against each other the losers into the quarter finals of the qualifiers.  The winner of the All Ireland semi then goes into the All Ireland final whilst the loser goes into the final of the qualifiers.  The All Ireland final is then between the only unbeaten team left and the best of the qualifiers.  Admittedly not an ideal plan but much better than we have now

[jas376]

Apart from that did you not think Cork got a couple of very soft frees near the end?

Of course Cork were playing for frees in the final stages. O Neill, O Leary and Miskella all went down easily as far as I remember. They tended  to throw themselves at the defender and then hit the floor during rather than as a result of the tackle. But could you blame them - they were five points down and as another  poster pointed out they weren't likely to score a goal or five points from play so the obvious thing to do was to play for frees - it's called the survival instinct - do whatever is needed to stay alive.
              I know it's not nice to see 'diving' becoming part of the game -but it's up to the powers that be to change the rules and start penalising deliberate dives, as they do in soccer.
                   

[Coddler]

I don't think it was a penalty either. McConnell has his arms stretch wide and O Neill ran into the shoulder/upper arm area which did not budge. This killed his momentum and i think he knew he was not going to get around so hooked an arm down McConnells back and dragged them both down. However, I don't really blame Deegan fro giving the penalty as it probably looked fairly clear cut at ground level. O Neill is quite cynical for a young fella.
He won another soft free going down after contact with Rory O Carroll soon after.