AISF 2010: Corcaigh vs Áth Cliath

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Facilitate the *early* entry of Provincial losers into the All Ireland series.
Provincial winners have a bye all the way to the quarter final.

It is not a bye: what rounds do they skip? And why should the losers' route suddenly become the yardstick for what constitutes a 'bye' in your book? And I'll repeat: the Quarter Final is an extra hurdle, some talk like it was always set in stone.

[mackers]

On the penalty, I felt there was definitely a grab by O'Neill on McConnells shoulder after the initial hit by McConnell, and he dragged him down on top of him. McConnells weird body position is testament to the fact that he was trying to stay on his feet I think.

However, the initial contact was a foul I reckon because he put his arms around O'Neill in a bear hug.

As for the game itself, I thought Cork were doing their best to throw it away. Their inside forward line was hiding, and was kicking abysmal wides, not all of them under pressure either. However, credit to them in the way they stayed going, and kept their composure. They are still not playing well, but at least they have found a way to win games like that.

I think Dublin tired. Cork are a strong team, and that amount of possession deficit means a lot of hard work. I think they just ran out of gas, and then the discipline went, as it often does when teams get tired. Silly frees become the easy option. That is the downside of the Gilroy plan, it really does require savage conditioning, and savage mental strength when your body starts to go. But it does make you a hard team to beat.

Bernard Brogan was brilliant for 65 minutes, but he too got tired as he galloped around Croke Park and really took the fight to Cork. O'Gara is like a new born foal when the ball is in his hand, and a two man inside line with himself and Brogan was always going to put an unreal amount of work on Brogan, because he was going to have to finish everything, O'Gara can't.

Very compelling game though, although frustrating at time (especially Cork), but I do think Kildare have the game to beat Cork, if they can get over Down themselves.

I had always been a huge fan of Goulding until last year's AI final. I watched him closely in the 2nd half in front of me on the Hill and he was hiding that day also. He seems to have gone backwards along with a number of other Cork lads. He's in an AI final and hopefully he makes up for his disappointing showing last year. I'd agree with a few other posters, Kerrigan showed himself to be a true leader, the run that resulted in an easy free for Cork showed real fight that Goulding and a few others could learn a lot from.

[highorlow]

Stonewall penalty, McConnell basically barged into him, not even O'Driscoll with his core strength would have remained upright after that tackle. O'Neill made sure though the penalty was awarded by hooking his arm, otherwise I think we'd have seen McConnell on all fours above O'Neill...

Def a penalty and the Dubs can't have any complaints. In fact their (the Dubs) goal would not have happened if the ref had given a stonewall free in to Cork, I think it was O'Leary that polaxed by one of those traditional Dublin late challenges.

[AZOffaly]

Facilitate the *early* entry of Provincial losers into the All Ireland series.
Provincial winners have a bye all the way to the quarter final.

It is not a bye: what rounds do they skip? And why should the losers' route suddenly become the yardstick for what constitutes a 'bye' in your book? And I'll repeat: the Quarter Final is an extra hurdle, some talk like it was always set in stone.

They skip qualifer round 4. (Not to mention qualifer round 1,2 and 3).

[AZOffaly]

Essentially, in my book, we have 5 different competitions, namely the 4 provincial championships, and the All Ireland series.

The All Ireland series begins in July or so, with the first round of the qualifiers.

Early losers in the provincial championships are penalised in the All Ireland series by making them tread a much longer road to get to Sam.

Provincial winners are granted a prize of the latest entry possible into the All Ireland Series, thus eliminating the amount of hurdles they have to cross to win Sam.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Facilitate the *early* entry of Provincial losers into the All Ireland series.
Provincial winners have a bye all the way to the quarter final.

It is not a bye: what rounds do they skip? And why should the losers' route suddenly become the yardstick for what constitutes a 'bye' in your book? And I'll repeat: the Quarter Final is an extra hurdle, some talk like it was always set in stone.

They skip qualifer round 4. (Not to mention qualifer round 1,2 and 3).

That's because they are not qualifiers, ergo, it cannot be said to be a bye. Just because the Provincials are imperfect, i.e., variant number of teams per province, that does not mean to say the Qualifiers are the gold-standard. Far from it.

Essentially, in my book, we have 5 different competitions, namely the 4 provincial championships, and the All Ireland series.

The All Ireland series begins in July or so, with the first round of the qualifiers.

Early losers in the provincial championships are penalised in the All Ireland series by making them tread a much longer road to get to Sam.

Provincial winners are granted a prize of the latest entry possible into the All Ireland Series, thus eliminating the amount of hurdles they have to cross to win Sam.

As has been proven (and I know that Tyrone have exploited this as much than more than anyone else, that still doesn't make it right), late entry into the All-Ireland is not an advantage, and has been demonstrated too, having those extra hurldles is often no handicap, quite the reverse in fact, when it facilitates the build-up of momentum.

None of what you're saying would even mildy convince me; the elephant in the room is too quiet.

[AZOffaly]

Do you see the Provincial championships and the All Ireland as the same competition? If you do, I see where you're coming from. If not, I can't.

Don't get hung up on the term 'Qualifiers'.

I think of them as All Ireland Series Round 1, 2, 3, 4, Quarter Final, Semi final, Final.

[rrhf]

Hard luck to the Dubs I felt they were doing enough and  then they entered nosebleed territory. I genuinely didnt think this Cork team was talented enough to win an all ireland but they are mighty close now.  Gilrow has donje a superb job with Dublin but I suggest that iF any one of Ryan, Whelan and even Sherlock had came on with 20 minutes to go there Dublin would be looking at an all Ireland final today.  The experience just wasnt there - it was the only department that failed Dublin. 

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Do you see the Provincial championships and the All Ireland as the same competition? If you do, I see where you're coming from. If not, I can't.

Yes, I do.

Don't get hung up on the term 'Qualifiers'.

I think of them as All Ireland Series Round 1, 2, 3, 4, Quarter Final, Semi final, Final.

If the Provincials were optional, then I'd agree with what you're saying. But they're not optional, a team has to lose to enter the Qualifiers, therefore it's not as simple as saying that that's the All Ireland Series.

[AZOffaly]

Facilitate the *early* entry of Provincial losers into the All Ireland series.
Provincial winners have a bye all the way to the quarter final.

It is not a bye: what rounds do they skip? And why should the losers' route suddenly become the yardstick for what constitutes a 'bye' in your book? And I'll repeat: the Quarter Final is an extra hurdle, some talk like it was always set in stone.

They skip qualifer round 4. (Not to mention qualifer round 1,2 and 3).

That's because they are not qualifiers, ergo, it cannot be said to be a bye. Just because the Provincials are imperfect, i.e., variant number of teams per province, that does not mean to say the Qualifiers are the gold-standard. Far from it.

Essentially, in my book, we have 5 different competitions, namely the 4 provincial championships, and the All Ireland series.

The All Ireland series begins in July or so, with the first round of the qualifiers.

Early losers in the provincial championships are penalised in the All Ireland series by making them tread a much longer road to get to Sam.

Provincial winners are granted a prize of the latest entry possible into the All Ireland Series, thus eliminating the amount of hurdles they have to cross to win Sam.

As has been proven (and I know that Tyrone have exploited this as much than more than anyone else, that still doesn't make it right), late entry into the All-Ireland is not an advantage, and has been demonstrated to o, having those extra hurldles is often no handicap, quite the reverse in face, when it facilitates the build-up of momentum.

None of what you're saying would even mildy convince me; the elephant in the room is too quiet.

Not sure what the elephant in the room comment is referring to, but in terms of the set up of the competition, I think it is certainly the intention that winning your province will garner a reward, i.e. not playing extra games to reach the quarter final of the All Ireland.

In my opinion, the only teams that are seriously discommoded in the current system are the provincial losing finalists who have to pick themselves up 6 days later.

What are the stats for provincial winners in quarter finals since the inception of the qualifiers. Can I find them anywhere?

[AZOffaly]

Do you see the Provincial championships and the All Ireland as the same competition? If you do, I see where you're coming from. If not, I can't.

Yes, I do.

Don't get hung up on the term 'Qualifiers'.

I think of them as All Ireland Series Round 1, 2, 3, 4, Quarter Final, Semi final, Final.

If the Provincials were optional, then I'd agree with what you're saying. But they're not optional, a team has to lose to enter the Qualifiers, therefore it's not as simple as saying that that's the All Ireland Series.

With respect, I think it is that simple. If you are beaten in your province, you must enter the All Ireland Series 7 games (maybe) away from an All Ireland final.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

With respect, I think it is that simple. If you are beaten in your province, you must enter the All Ireland Series 7 games (maybe) away from an All Ireland final.

OK AZ we can differ on that.

But regardless of all the conjecture one way or the other, Mickey Harte's suggestion is a simple but very effective way of circumventing the current anomaly (of only the Provincial Winners not being able to lose once like everyone else, and having to play an extra round to accommodate losers).

It involves only two extra games in total, and makes it that bit more difficult for the Qualifiers (because regardless of what's said, the fact that the Qualifying route is relatively so successful is the proof), plus it gives every team the possibility of losing only once in the Qualifying portion of the Championship, with the knockout beginning only at the semi-final stage, as per the pre-Qualifying set-up.

Do we really want a competition where it pays to lose? Even looking at the last 3 years alone, 2010, 2009  & 2008, the All-Ireland was won by a loser.

[AZOffaly]

With respect, I think it is that simple. If you are beaten in your province, you must enter the All Ireland Series 7 games (maybe) away from an All Ireland final.

OK AZ we can differ on that.

But regardless of all the conjecture one way or the other, Mickey Harte's suggestion is a simple but very effective way of circumventing the current anomaly (of only the Provincial Winners not being able to lose once like everyone else, and having to play an extra round to accommodate losers).

It involves only two extra games in total, and makes it that bit more difficult for the Qualifiers (because regardless of what's said, the fact that the Qualifying route is relatively so successful is the proof), plus it gives every team the possibility of losing only once in the Qualifying portion of the Championship, with the knockout beginning only at the semi-final stage, as per the pre-Qualifying set-up.

Do we really want a competition where it pays to lose? Even looking at the last 3 years alone, 2010, 2009  & 2008, the All-Ireland was won by a loser.

They didn't lose in the All Ireland series. 

[Rossfan]

I thought this was a thread about Corcaigh/Ath Cliath?
Yer man from Sraith Bán is off on his Micky Harte supporting crusade again ...can't take the fact that this was overwhelmingly bet out the gate at Congress. Remind you of Orangemen still trying to walk down Garvaghy 
As for the yesterday's game ...the team with the best players won in the end although they'd sicken your ar*e looking at their rugby league type of sideways and backways walking pace style. However when they started putting ball in after O'Neill came on the frailties in the Dublin defence came into play .

[paddypastit]

And if a provincial winner were to win a QF and then lose a semi should they get a second chance. Provincial winners have a trophy. That puts then ahead of at least 28 other counties - is that not enough for ye.

I've said enough about this on other threads, so to summarise: if not one of the 4 best teams in their provinces makes it through to the semis, either a) some teams don't give a toss about the Provincials, in which case they're worse than useless, or b) the Qualifiers' route is a distinct advantage.

"if not one of the 4 best teams in their provinces makes it through to the semis" - either they are not as good as they were reputed to be or the didn't have the discipline, focus and mental strenght to get back to work after their provincial success. For that we should give them a second chance?  In other words win a championship, don't bother too much about the next game because you know you will have a second chance and can regroup later - sorry that type of bread buttered on both sides approach doesn't wash

Every team, bar the Provincial winners, every single team has one opportunity to lose, just one. Is that a fair system, i.e., you're penalised for winning? The Quarter Finals were introduced to faciliate the re-entry of losers, yet even though the Provincial winners have to negotiate this extra hurdle they alone do not have the luxury of a loss. That's c**k-eyed.

Every team bar the provincial winner has to this point in the year nothing to show for their efforts, and only in this pretty unusual year are we assured that one other will.  It's pretty simple - success or second chance - you can't, and shouldn't, have both.

...the team with the best players won in the end although they'd sicken your ar*e looking at their rugby league type of sideways and backways walking pace style. However when they started putting ball in after O'Neill came on the frailties in the Dublin defence came into play

I've seen this point made a few times but while Cork might have a tendancy to do it in any company, the reason they spent so much time doing that yesterday was because Dublin forced them to, as they had done Tyrone before.  The reason Cork were into double figures in wides by early in the second half yesterday was because Dublin forced them to shoot from where they didn't want to and under pressure, as they had done to Tyrone before and the reason Cork eventually got past Dublin yesterday was precisely because of that over and back passing because when the chips were down they were good enough and smart enough to keep possession knowing that the chance or, increasingly as the game progressed, the the foul would come