8 Provinces finalists lose out?

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Currently the only team in the Provincials that doesn't get a second chance are the winners... yeah, that's really fair.

They don't get a second chance because they don't need a second chance. They qualify straight for the quarter finals. All the other teams need to play extra games before they can reach the quarter finals.

More strawman arguments.

Before the Qualifiers they were straight into the semi-final, so this is actually an extra stage as a result of the Qualifiers,yet even though it's an extra stage that the Provincial winners must negotiate they get no second chance should they lose like every other team in the Provincials.

The fact is that the current set up favours those teams that lose, the statistics are patently clear; it's no more complicated than that, and to argue for the status quo is to argue for a set-up that cherishes losers above winners. Just because it's an amateur organisation is not a reason to tolerate a totally amateurish approach to the whole thing.

It'll never be perfect, but that's no reason at all not to try to make it better.

[Rossfan]

The proposed Harte/Tyrone shite system won't make it better anyway.

As you might say yourself Strabaneman   ROT !!!

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

The proposed Harte/Tyrone shite system won't make it better anyway.

I genuinely don't know how you can say that, since you've no idea about the proposal (as you've plainly demonstrated); moreover, you don't even know how the current system works if you think that winning a Provincial actually constitutes a bye! 

Anyway, you keep your faith in a set-up that favours the losers.  Very progressive and forward-looking.

[dec]

The fact is that the current set up favours those teams that lose, the statistics are patently clear; it's no more complicated than that, and to argue for the status quo is to argue for a set-up that cherishes losers above winners.

The system does not favour those that lose. Since the backdoor started the quarter final score is 21-19 in favour of the backdoor teams which is as narrow a gap as you could have. In fact it is only because of this years 4-0 win for the backdoor teams, that they have a lead. The provincial champions have not been behind overall since the backdoor started, until this year.

The main reason for the backdoor lead is the relative strengths and weaknesses of the provinces. Connacht provincial champions are 2-8 whereas Cork and Kerry have won 7 quarter finals as backdoor teams.

The only Q/F game this year that was a real shock was Down/Kerry. Dublin,Cork and Kildare have all shown some recent pedigree.

If shock results were a regular occurance at the Q/F stage then you could claim that the backdoor gave them an advantage. However Cork/Kerry win games as a backdoor team because they are good, and Connacht champions lose games because in recent years they haven't been so good.

[dec]

Over the course of the backdoor system the number of backdoor victories in the Q/F by province is

Ulster 8
Munster 7
Leinster 5
Connacht 1

This simply reflects the fact that in the last 10 years Munster and Ulster have been the stronger provinces. The advantage that they had was that they were better teams than their opponents, not that the system was biased in their favour.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

The fact is that the current set up favours those teams that lose, the statistics are patently clear; it's no more complicated than that, and to argue for the status quo is to argue for a set-up that cherishes losers above winners.

The system does not favour those that lose. Since the backdoor started the quarter final score is 21-19 in favour of the backdoor teams which is as narrow a gap as you could have. In fact it is only because of this years 4-0 win for the backdoor teams, that they have a lead. The provincial champions have not been behind overall since the backdoor started, until this year.

It doesn't matter how thin the advantage is for the losing teams, it's still an advantage, that's the key and fundamental principle. It should be a much, much wider margin, in favour of those teams that haven't used the 'back door'.

Everything else you say is just skirting around the main inequity: why should a team that hasn't lost, when they need to negotiate an extra stage that has been brought in to facilitate losing teams, be denied a second chance like those they'll face at that supplementary stage? It doesn't make sense, and worse, the Provincials will be relegated to a side-show to be dumped from as soon as possible.

I don't understand this resistance to a tweak to the current set-up that would mitigate the current weaknesses significantly. It's not like it has flawlessly been in place for decades, and it's not like the whole thing would be overhauled.

[dec]

It doesn't matter how thin the advantage is for the losing teams, it's still an advantage, that's the key and fundamental principle. It should be a much, much wider margin, in favour of those teams that haven't used the 'back door'.

You are assuming that it is the system that gave the advantage to the losing (backdoor) teams. It isn't. It is because the Munster and Ulster teams that came through the back door were generally better than the Leinster and Connacht teams they faced. If the system was so tough on Provincial champions why did 9/10 Munster champions win their Q/F (because they were good). If the system is so good for backdoor teams then why have Connacht teams only won one Q/F as a backdoor team (because they were not so good).

From 1969 through 1990 Munster/Leinster won 22 straight All-Ireland football finals. In that span Connacht/Ulster managed 1 semi final vistory over Munster/Leinster (Galway over Offaly 1973). Does this mean that system gave teams from Munster/Leinster an advantage or was it just that those teams were better?

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

I'm not assuming anything -- the set-up is flawed, and it'll never be perfect, but it can be made less imperfect. And I don't buy your simplistic argument about back door teams being better necessarily -- it has more to do with the momentum built up over games over successive weeks IMO.

Ideally, the fairest way would be a set-up where each team at each stage has played an identical number of games (unlike the 'old' knockout system, which wasn't perfect either), but that is not going to happen anytime soon realistically, and that shouldn't prohibit small changes to the set-up in the meantime that will remove some of the flaws.

You still haven't addressed the fundamental inequity of the current set-up, and how easy it would be fix the one glaring anomaly. That's all I really care about, because that's all that can be addressed in practical terms.

I'm repeating myself here, enough already.

[dec]

There is no glaring anomaly.

Before the q/f every team can have a second chance to reach the q/f. From the q/f on it is straight Knockout and no-one gets a second chance.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

There is no glaring anomaly.

Before the q/f every team can have a second chance to reach the q/f. From the q/f on it is straight Knockout and no-one gets a second chance.

Every team in the Provincials gets a second chance except the winners -- that's a glaring anomaly, that the only 4 teams that get no second chance in the whole competition are those that have not lost.

Why should the quarter-final have such preeminent significance with you since it was only introduced to facilitate the Qualifiers, at the expense of the Provincial winners going straight through to the semis? They shouldn't, and Harte's proposal would correct that, and it would also guarantee at least 50% Provincial winner participation in the semis, which would fix that issue too.

[dec]

There is no glaring anomaly.

Before the q/f every team can have a second chance to reach the q/f. From the q/f on it is straight Knockout and no-one gets a second chance.

Every team in the Provincials gets a second chance except the winners -- that's a glaring anomaly, that the only 4 teams that get no second chance in the whole competition are those that have not lost.

Why should the quarter-final have such preeminent significance with you since it was only introduced to facilitate the Qualifiers, at the expense of the Provincial winners going straight through to the semis? They shouldn't, and Harte's proposal would correct that, and it would also guarantee at least 50% Provincial winner participation in the semis, which would fix that issue too.

All teams can have a second chance to reach the q/f, four teams don't need to use that second chance.
Harte's proposal would just postpone the issue. If one of unbeaten provincial winners loses in the s/f then the same situation arises (a team getting knocked out without a "second chance")

[Rossfan]

fundamental inequity of the current set-up, and how easy it would be fix the one glaring anomaly. That's all I really care about, because that's all that can be addressed in practical terms.

I'm repeating myself here, enough already.

The thingy Micky Harte and his loyal followers are proposing is just  too silly for words. An un necessary extra round of meaningless games the winners of which dont get a "second chance".
Provincial Champions do get a bye to the All Ireland Quarter Finals by virtue of being Provincial Champions. Those that fail to win their Provincial Championships enter the All Ireland Championship at either Round 1, 2 or 4.
The Provincial Championships are their own separate competitions .
There is no inequality .. Down/Kerry, Dublin/Tyrone, Ros/Cork and Kildare/Meath all started the weekend of 31/7-1/8 with an equal opportunity of winning Sam under the same conditions ...win you're in the Semi/lose and you're out.
Congress (for once) had the good sense to throw out the Tyrone/Dublin silliness last April and hopefully will do the same again.
If there are to be changes to the championship system/structure it needs to be only after a long period of consultation and in conjunction with an overall package taking into account the whole scene ... Adult/Underage/County/club/NFLs/Sigersons/Hurling as well rather than once off knee jerk reactions by losing managers who should be looking at where they and their teams went wrong rather than the red herring whinges about the system.

[Croí na hÉireann]

I think the most frightening result of the weekend is the detente that has broken out between Tyrone and Kerry about the "unfairness" of the qualifiers. It's like a movie where Superman finds common ground with Lex Luthor because the Joker has come over from Gotham City to take over Metropolis. Really lads - what are you like?

Saw this on Twitter -
http://twitpic.com/2aqk1z

Messing aside, these are interesting stats. Don't forget, that one Provincial finalist isn't like another. Tyrone or Kerry going down this year isn't like Westmeath losing in 2004 or Sligo in 2007, for instance. We shouldn't give them equal weighing.

This looking at the system up and down is typical of our mindset in Ireland. Rather than look at our own failings and address them, we look at the system to see what b**tard has one up on us.

It was the same with Galway in the hurling twenty years ago, when they had a bye to the All-Ireland semis. Did the lack of games help them or hinder them? Galway haven't won any hurling titles since that ended - is that because they don't get the bye to the semi anymore, or because their teams aren't good enough? Who knows?

The search for "fairness" is fool's gold. Bring back the right Championship, where you lived or died after every game. Better all round. At least you knew where you bloody stood.

Lazy analysis. Westmeath were beaten by goals in 04, the same reason that Kerry & Tyrone were beaten this year. Not because they were a perceived weaker team, just caught on the day, which is what the championship is all about.

I see Mickey Harte is whinging again this year, at least Sean Cavanagh can breath a sigh of relief that he won't be hung out to dry again...

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

There is no glaring anomaly.

Before the q/f every team can have a second chance to reach the q/f. From the q/f on it is straight Knockout and no-one gets a second chance.

Every team in the Provincials gets a second chance except the winners -- that's a glaring anomaly, that the only 4 teams that get no second chance in the whole competition are those that have not lost.

Why should the quarter-final have such preeminent significance with you since it was only introduced to facilitate the Qualifiers, at the expense of the Provincial winners going straight through to the semis? They shouldn't, and Harte's proposal would correct that, and it would also guarantee at least 50% Provincial winner participation in the semis, which would fix that issue too.

All teams can have a second chance to reach the q/f, four teams don't need to use that second chance.
Harte's proposal would just postpone the issue. If one of unbeaten provincial winners loses in the s/f then the same situation arises (a team getting knocked out without a "second chance")

The quarter-finals are a contrived, artificial introduction to allow losers re-entry -- why do you hold the quarters as sacrosanct? There is no sanctity about them. 

Harte's proposal is not just about postponing the issue -- have you even read it? What he's saying is that once in the semis, and if you're beaten, fair enough, because the path to the semis has been made more equitable in that every team that played in the Provincials has had the chance to lose once, even the winners, and the semis being where the Provincial winners would have been were it not for the facilitation of losers -- what is so difficult to understand about that?

And as for this ridiculous suggestion from the likes of Duffy that the Provincials are a 'separate competition' -- yeah, that's why participation in the Provincials is optional. Pure twaddle.

[Rossfan]

I suppose Fear if micky Harte called you a b****x you'd send in 10 posts here agreeing with him