8 Provinces finalists lose out?

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

As repeated ad nauseam? You said it.


Edit And just because you repeat that endlessly it doesn't make it correct: why do you persist with the lie that Harte is only saying what he's saying about the format now?

[Rossfan]

He had no complaints about it on 2008 nor had th'other bucko in 2009.

[mick999]

He had no complaints about it on 2008 nor had th'other bucko in 2009.

Mickey Harte has been talking about this for a few years now, and has admitted that Tyrone have been the beneficiaries in 05 and 08, but he still felt that the system was unfair ...

See below a direct quote from a column written in May 2009:

The two counties who could most justifiably feel aggrieved are Armagh and Dublin, who between them have 10 provincial titles during this period, and only that single All-Ireland won by Armagh in 2002. Though we in Tyrone have been the beneficiaries of the system in 2005 and 2008, I definitely believe that the current weighting is disadvantageous to the provincial champions.

See below the full article from the Irish News, Fri 22nd May 2009


The seed of an idea for fairer Qualifiers
By MICKEY HARTE

As the new Championship season gets underway, the debate as to whether the provincial series have been devalued because of the current Qualifying system gathers momentum.

The fact that both last year's All-Ireland finalists came through the non-conventional route, allied to the statistic that shows in the eight years since the inception of the 'back door' system, four qualifying teams (Galway in 2001, Tyrone in 2005, Kerry in 2006 and Tyrone again in 2008) have actually won the Sam Maguire.

The two counties who could most justifiably feel aggrieved are Armagh and Dublin, who between them have 10 provincial titles during this period, and only that single All-Ireland won by Armagh in 2002. Though we in Tyrone have been the beneficiaries of the system in 2005 and 2008, I definitely believe that the current weighting is disadvantageous to the provincial champions.

That four qualifiers can regain equal status in the last eight, after having lost a game, while the champions currently have no second chance, is grossly unfair. I have already suggested that I believe the provincial winners should play-off, as in the old style All-Ireland semi-finals, and the two losers await the two best qualifiers. I would like to elaborate a little on that view and allude to another deficiency in our current League system.

Because only the top two qualify for the NFL final, and very soon that reality is out of the reach of many, it becomes a case of avoiding relegation. This necessarily detracts from the competitive nature of the second most important gaelic football competition. Connecting League position to each championship draw and a re-structuring of the Qualifying system would address both these deficiencies simultaneously. This would take the format of a seeding process where the counties in each province would be rated according to their League finishing position.

For example, based on the League just completed, Ulster would read:

1 Derry; 2 Tyrone; 3 Monaghan

4 Donegal; 5 Armagh; 6 Down; 7 Fermanagh; 8 Cavan and 9 Antrim. Therefore, in the preliminary round Cavan would play Antrim and the winner would go into the quarter-final where they would play Derry. Accordingly, Tyrone (2), would play Fermanagh (7), Monaghan (3) would meet Down (6) and Donegal (4) would play Armagh (5).

The loser of the preliminary game would enter the first round of the Qualifiers. In Leinster, the competing teams would be rated one to 11, in Munster one to 6 and in Connacht one to 6. New York would be accommodated on a rotational basis as at present.

In a new departure, I would suggest that the preliminary round losers, which would be eight in total (one in Ulster, three in Leinster, and two from both Connacht and Munster) should play off in an open draw and the four winners go forward to the second round where they would be in the same pool as the losing quarter-finalists in Ulster and Leinster (totalling eight) and the losing semi-finalists in the other two provinces (totalling four), thus making a total of 16 teams in the second round of the Qualifiers.

In theory, this should result in the 16 bottom teams according to current League form making up the second round of the Qualifiers. Of course, there could be a number of 'upsets' or giantkilling acts, and consequently a highly ranked team could find themselves in the Qualifiers at this stage, but it is likely that the majority would follow the expected pattern. This method would have the distinct advantage of giving developing counties a realistic chance of making progress and not suffering any humiliating defeats. The eight winners would then play each other in an open draw (third round) and again the four winners play in the fourth round to leave two successful teams.

Meanwhile, there would be two beaten semi-finalists in Ulster and Leinster plus the beaten finalists in Munster and Connacht to join them in making a total of eight again. An open draw for the fifth round would reduce this to four and the sixth round would reduce this to two and then the beaten finalists in Ulster and Leinster would provide their opposition (seventh round) to eventually leave the two best qualifiers who would have to meet the beaten provincial champions (eighth round) in order to re-enter the All Ireland series proper.

I know you might be thinking this appears complicated, but, I assure you, there is a degree of logic in the proposal. I understand the overall logistics in making any system work is fraught with much difficulty but, nevertheless, I believe this system could address some of the deficiencies often attributed to the current All-Ireland football structures. The benefits could be (a) higher value placed on League positions equally valid across each province; (b) better weighting given to provincial success and, consequently, more of a 'knock-out' mentality prevailing within the provinces; (c) more realistic chance for developing teams to make progress without the risk of demoralising defeats; (d) it would create a more level playing field for teams from Ulster and Leinster, where their beaten finalists enter at a more advanced stage than those from the provinces with a smaller number of counties.

As in all such innovative thinking I am very well aware that the devil is often in the detail and, no doubt, I may have overlooked some critical factors in this thought process. However, it might serve to initiate some solutions rather than re-iterate the problems inherent in the current system.

http://gaatipster.forumotion.net/gaa-ginearalta-general-gaa-f10/mickey-harte-s-column-in-today-s-irish-news-t696.htm

[blanketattack]

No as evidenced by my statement above - "this Kilkenny team are far ahead of Cork presently" - which makes my point. Saying Kilkenny do fine when they win their provincial final is ignoring the fact that they are far ahead of their competitors, unlike the football equivalent. Anyway, the fact that one team can get to an AI final by winning 3 games further highlights the ridiculousness of the current system.

I agree that the comparion with Kilkenny isn't comparing like with like. Kilkenny are so far ahead of the competition that their players could be banned from any training after the Leinster final and forced to eat a tub of ice-cream and drink a bottle of champagne every day and they'd still win their semi-final comfortably.
It's only when the difference between the teams is marginal that you can tell whether it's a disadvantage or not.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

He had no complaints about it on 2008 nor had th'other bucko in 2009.

Yes he had (see mick999's post), it's just that you weren't listening, probably because it seems you only hear what you want to.

Rather curious don't you think that the only two counties that have actually won via the Qualifying route (so far) are fully behind the calls for a more equitable system, which involves only a tweak to the current set-up? No coincidence either, that the Tyrone County Board were the only backers of Dublin's motion at Congress last year -- at whose behest to you think?

[Zapatista]

Mickey Harte has been talking about this for a few years now, and has admitted that Tyrone have been the beneficiaries in 05 and 08, but he still felt that the system was unfair ...

There was no market for this type of story in 05 and 08.

[mick999]

Another discussion about Harte's proposal in 2009...

http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2963498&postcount=15

anyone hear Mickey Harte's proposal yesterday on Sunday Sport on Radio 1 regarding the football Championship. Very interesting.
And deffo food for thought.
He reckons the winners of the four provincial championships should be paired off against each in the first of two quarterfinals.
Two winners obviously straight through to semi finals.
The other two quarterfinals should be the two losing provincial winners from that to play only TWO teams coming through the qualifier system into quarter finals{as opposed to four whcih it currently stands- ie make them play an extra round of qualifiers}

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And an article from Hogan Stand from Aug 2008

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=99616

Harte calls for provincial winners' backdoor
14 August 2008

[DuffleKing]

Mickey Harte has been talking about this for a few years now, and has admitted that Tyrone have been the beneficiaries in 05 and 08, but he still felt that the system was unfair ...

There was no market for this type of story in 05 and 08.

Not in tyrone anyway

[Rossfan]

Present system = you play in your Provincial Championship ...either win it ...then a bye to All Ireland Quarter Final or lose and you enter the All Ireland at Round 1 or 2.
Any team loses a game in the All Ireland Championship = OUT.

Perfectly fair understandable and equitable.
Micky Harte's nonsense = Provincial winners get to lose a game in the all ireland Championship and get back in. So a team goes unbeaten to the All Ireland Final and then loses.
Have to replay the Final "because ALL teams must get a second chance".
No wonder Congress in one of its more lucid moments threw that out.

[mick999]

Looks like Congress will get another motion ...

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=133629

[Maiden1]

If the provincial winners all play off then the losers of these matches played the 'back door' winners then you could have Kerry playing Tyrone in the quarter final and then playing the same team in the semi final.  Where by the team that won the quarter final match could then lose the semi final and be back to the same argument (everyone else but us got a second chance).

It's nearly impossible to have a system where everyone will be happy.  Todays system is fair in that every team knows what the rules are before the championship starts and is subject to the same rules i.e.  if you get knocked out before the quarter final you get 1 more chance.  After the quarter final it's a knockout competition whether you needed to use your second chance or not.

Jack O'Connor would be better looking at the discipline of the Kerry team.  Other teams go out with the instruction to try to wind the likes of Galvin up as they know he will fall for it, if they keep getting key players suspended they run the risk of 'shock' defeats in quarter finals.

[Hardy]

What about "ask the audience"? If provincial champions are beaten in a quarter final they can use their lifeline. Roscommon would have beaten Cork by about 7,500.

Or phone a friend. Jack O'Connor? Eamon O'Brien is doing OK, but he's a bit stuck. The next voice you hear will be Eamon's. Go ahead Eamon; your thirty seconds start ... NOW!
Hello Jack. Kildare are leading by nine points. What do we do?

[seafoid]

Or phone a friend. Jack O'Connor? Eamon O'Brien is doing OK, but he's a bit stuck. The next voice you hear will be Eamon's. Go ahead Eamon; your thirty seconds start ... NOW!
Hello Jack. Kildare are leading by nine points. What do we do?

Award Meath a penalty try. Obvious !

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Present system = you play in your Provincial Championship ...either win it ...then a bye to All Ireland Quarter Final or lose and you enter the All Ireland at Round 1 or 2.
Any team loses a game in the All Ireland Championship = OUT.

Perfectly fair understandable and equitable.
Micky Harte's nonsense = Provincial winners get to lose a game in the all ireland Championship and get back in. So a team goes unbeaten to the All Ireland Final and then loses.
Have to replay the Final "because ALL teams must get a second chance".
No wonder Congress in one of its more lucid moments threw that out.

Pure rot.

Present system = you play in your Provincial Championship ...either win it ...then a bye to All Ireland Quarter Final or lose and you enter the All Ireland at Round 1 or 2.
Any team loses a game in the All Ireland Championship = OUT.

The Provincials are an intrinsic part of the All-Ireland, always have been, they're not a separate competition.

Perfectly fair understandable and equitable.

Badly flawed premise, equally badly formed conclusion.

Present system = you play in your Provincial Championship ...either win it ...then a bye to All Ireland Quarter Final or lose and you enter the All Ireland at Round 1 or 2.

FFS, it is not a bye, Provincial winners have skipped no fecking rounds... Oh boy! 

Micky Harte's nonsense = Provincial winners get to lose a game in the all ireland Championship and get back in. So a team goes unbeaten to the All Ireland Final and then loses.

Provincial winners get to lose a game like every other team in the Provincials who have lost, every other fecking team.

Have to replay the Final "because ALL teams must get a second chance".

WTF! You really haven't a clue what being proposed have you -- it has never been proposed that every team gets a second chance. Do try to understand the proposals before you shoot them down.

No wonder Congress in one of its more lucid moments threw that out.

Yep, as lucid as your 'logic', i.e., mud. And that motion is not dead yet.


In the last 10 years, since the beginning of the Qualifiers, 21 of the 40 teams who have made the Semis have been Qualifiers. That's right, the majority of those who made it through to semis were not Provincial winners (52.5%), whereas before it was 100%, therefore it favours Qualifiers and those teams who lose earlier in the All-Ireland.

Currently the only team in the Provincials that doesn't get a second chance are the winners... yeah, that's really fair.

[dec]

Currently the only team in the Provincials that doesn't get a second chance are the winners... yeah, that's really fair.

They don't get a second chance because they don't need a second chance. They qualify straight for the quarter finals. All the other teams need to play extra games before they can reach the quarter finals.