Israel Attack Humanitarian Ship, 10 men killed

[Tyrones own]

Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?

Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.

[Mod edit - Unnecessary]

Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not

All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!

[muppet]

Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?

Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.

Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not

All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!

You whinge about people blaming the US for the world's woes yet ignore a simple comparison.

Ireland - no bases all over the world and no dodgy allies to defend.

USA - many bases all over the world and many dodgy allies to defend including Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden at one stage.

[Arthur_Friend]

Go read your history books, lads. There has never been peace in that region. It has been fought over and ruled and fought over again by the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Roman and Byzantine Empires, the Islamic and Christian crusaders, the Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire. Can't blame it all on the big bad Yanks. And do you really think Ireland was a land of peace and harmony before the arrival of the big bad Brits?

It's like history through the eyes of 4 year old on here sometimes.

That's a few times now I've been asked to read some books. There's no request as rediculous when it comes to isues like this. Perhaps we read different books

There is nothing unique about historical conflict in the region that lends wieght to todays conflict. You can't ignore the international aspect to to todays conflict and blame it on the water in Palestine.

Neither can you blame today's conflict on the Americans and British, while ignoring the fact that the same issues were being fought over thousands of years ago. I'm not saying that today's superpowers haven't exacerbated the problems, but it's simplistic to think that if the Americans would only back off, the people of the area would settle down and live as good neighbours. The same reasoning holds that if the British govt would just announce its intention to quit the north, there'd be a huge party and we'd have a 32 county state in the morning.

The fact that the people were fighting in this region, like in every corner of the planet, down through the ages is irrelevant, a problem exists in the region now.

Britain helped create the problem but is largely irrelevant now. It is the United States' unwavering support of the Israeli government that is the problem. The US could force Israel to make peace with its neighbours tomorrow if it wanted but it obviously isn't in the interests of those who decide on US foreign policy.

[Tyrones own]

Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?

Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.

Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not

All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!

You whinge about people blaming the US for the world's woes yet ignore a simple comparison.

Ireland - no bases all over the world and no dodgy allies to defend.

USA - many bases all over the world and many dodgy allies to defend including Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden at one stage.

**Shakes head**  That square peg isn't going in to the round hole no matter how many times you bate it!

[muppet]

Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?

Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.

Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not

All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!

You whinge about people blaming the US for the world's woes yet ignore a simple comparison.

Ireland - no bases all over the world and no dodgy allies to defend.

USA - many bases all over the world and many dodgy allies to defend including Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden at one stage.

**Shakes head**  That square peg isn't going in to the round hole no matter how many times you bate it!

You are the one who said the USA needed an ally in the region. Please explain why and how they chose which side to take given, as you pointed out, that there has always been conflict there? Please include Bin Laden and Hussein in your answer.

[mylestheslasher]

Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?

Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.

Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not

All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!

You whinge about people blaming the US for the world's woes yet ignore a simple comparison.

Ireland - no bases all over the world and no dodgy allies to defend.

USA - many bases all over the world and many dodgy allies to defend including Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden at one stage.

**Shakes head**  That square peg isn't going in to the round hole no matter how many times you bate it!

You are the one who said the USA needed an ally in the region. Please explain why and how they chose which side to take given, as you pointed out, that there has always been conflict there? Please include Bin Laden and Hussein in your answer.

Why bother argue with this clown. He obviously hasn't the smarts to understand what is going on. The US has lots of allies in the region. They used to have the Shah in Iran who abused his power, kidnapped his opponents and made people disappear. A popular rising by the people led to an islamic state (which was a brutal wipe out of all the remnants of the shahs regime). Fearing the Islamic rising  the US made friends with another brutal dictator in Sadam, armed him, helped him make chemical weapons and sold him weapons. Of course when Sadam lost the run of himself and decided to invade another US ally in undemocratic Kuwait and threatened yet another ally in undemocratic Saudi. They also have undemocratic Egypt too. The US will be buddies with anyone who will keep the oil flowing no matter how badly they trample on the people they supposedly represent.

[mylestheslasher]

Sorry for coming back to this so late, I was actually really concerned that I was making Tyrones Own sick.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/260107offthemap.htm

The "Wipe Israel Off The Map" Hoax
What Ahmadinejad really said and why this broken record is just another ad slogan for war

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Friday, January 26, 2007

Barely a day goes by that one can avoid reading or hearing yet another Israeli, American or British warhawk regurgitate the broken record that Iran's President Ahmadinejad threatened to "wipe Israel off the map," framed in the ridiculous context that Israelis are being targeted for a second holocaust. This baseless rallying call for conflict holds about as much credibility as Dick Cheney's assertion that Saddam Hussein was planning to light up American skies with mushroom clouds.

Today it's the turn of would-be future British Prime Minister David Cameron, leader of the Conservative Party, who repeated the "wipe Israel off he map" fraud in a speech at the World Economic Forum in Davos, using it to qualify his refusal to rule out a military strike on Iran under a Tory government.

Did Ahmadinejad really threaten to "wipe Israel off the map" or is this phrase just another jingoistic brand slogan for selling the next war in the Middle East?

The devil is in the detail, wiping Israel off the map suggests a physical genocidal assault, a literal population relocation or elimination akin to what the Nazis did. According to numerous different translations, Ahmadinejad never used the word "map," instead his statement was in the context of time and applied to the Zionist regime occupying Jerusalem. Ahmadinejad was expressing his future hope that the Zionist regime in Israel would fall, not that Iran was going to physically annex the country and its population.

To claim Ahmadinejad has issued a rallying cry to ethnically cleanse Israel is akin to saying that Churchill wanted to murder all Germans when he stated his desire to crush the Nazis. This is about the demise of a corrupt occupying power, not the deaths of millions of innocent people.

The Guardian's Jonathan Steele cites four different translations, from professors to the BBC to the New York Times and even pro-Israel news outlets, in none of those translations is the word "map" used. The closest translation to what the Iranian President actually said is, "The regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time," or a narrow relative thereof. In no version is the word "map" used or a context of mass genocide or hostile military action even hinted at.

The acceptance of the word "map" seemingly originated with the New York Times, who later had to back away from this false translation. The BBC also wrongly used the word and, in comments to Steele, later accepted their mistake but refused to issue a retraction.

"The fact that he compared his desired option - the elimination of "the regime occupying Jerusalem" - with the fall of the Shah's regime in Iran makes it crystal clear that he is talking about regime change, not the end of Israel. As a schoolboy opponent of the Shah in the 1970's he surely did not favor Iran's removal from the page of time. He just wanted the Shah out," writes Steele.

"It's important to note that the "quote" in question was itself a quote, writes Arash Norouzi, "they are the words of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the father of the Islamic Revolution. Although he quoted Khomeini to affirm his own position on Zionism, the actual words belong to Khomeini and not Ahmadinejad. Thus, Ahmadinejad has essentially been credited (or blamed) for a quote that is not only unoriginal, but represents a viewpoint already in place well before he ever took office."

Professor Juan Cole concurs, arguing, "Now, some might say, "So he didn't say, 'wipe off the map,' he said 'erase from the page.' What's the difference? Anyway he's saying he wants to get rid of Israel. Ahmadinejad was not making a threat, he was quoting a saying of Khomeini and urging that pro-Palestinian activists in Iran not give up hope -- that the occupation of Jerusalem was no more a continued inevitability than had been the hegemony of the Shah's government. Whatever this quotation from a decades-old speech of Khomeini may have meant, Ahmadinejad did not say that 'Israel must be wiped off the map' with the implication that phrase has of Nazi-style extermination of a people. He said that the occupation regime over Jerusalem must be erased from the page of time."



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Let's consider for a moment that Ahmadinejad really does wish to initiate a nuclear war on Israel, is this feasible? It would be like Paris Hilton picking a fight with Mike Tyson. The CIA's own estimates put Iran five to ten years away from being able to produce one nuclear bomb even if they were in the planning stages now, which is highly unlikely given that international inspectors have found no evidence of such a program and CIA satellite imagery also shows no proof of nuclear arms. Contrast this to an Israeli arsenal of anything up to 200 launch ready nukes allied to the might of the U.S. which has nearly 6,000 active warheads not to mention so-called "mini-nukes."

While it can be reasonably argued that Iran is seeking a nuclear weapon at some point in the future, to then claim that this means Ahmadinejad wishes to enact a second holocaust is an unfathomable leap of logic. The real reason for any nation in that region trying to acquire a nuclear weapon is for self defense, because they are surrounded by other hostile powers that already have the bomb.

Returning to the "wipe Israel off the map hoax," loathe are we to forget another of the commercial jingles concocted for hoodwinking Americans into attacking a certain other Middle Eastern country - "he used weapons of mass destruction against his own people," referring of course to Saddam Hussein's alleged role in the Halabja massacre where Iraqi Kurds were gassed. In reality, as former CIA analyst Stephen Pelletiere has revealed, Halabja came as a result of a battlefield exchange between the Iranians and the Iraqis after the Kurds had sided with the Iranians and allowed them to enter the city. According to the DIA's own report at the time, the type of gas that killed the Kurds was not used by the Iraqis but was used by the Iranians. The incident was a tragedy of war, not a directed program of genocide at the behest of Saddam Hussein.

Whenever Bush administration officials and others used Halabja as a pretext for war, the mass media routinely failed to mention the DIA report, just as they have failed to provide any balance on the real meaning of Ahmadinejad's statement, despite the fact that it is completely distorted almost every day and used as a call to arms as well as a propagandistic ploy to convince western populations that dark skinned invaders are hell-bent on their wholesale destruction.


Also, see here for how propaganda works lads and maybe next time give a little thought to the agenda of those you decide to believe..

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

[mylestheslasher]

Surely a horrible axis of evil like Iran would not tolerate a jew about the place given they want to wipe them from the map... Think again...

From a Sephardic Jew website (jews who originated in the iberian peninsula)

http://www.sephardicstudies.org/iran.html

TEHRAN - The Jewish women in the back rows of the synagogue wear long garments in the traditional Iranian style, but instead of chadors, their heads are covered with cheerful, flowered scarves. The boys in their skullcaps, with Hebrew prayer books tucked under their arms, scamper down the aisles to grab the best spots near the lush, turquoise Persian carpet of the altar. This is Friday night, Shabbat - Iranian style, and the synagogue in an affluent neighborhood of North Tehran is filled to capacity with more than 400 worshipers.

It is one of the many paradoxes of the Islamic Republic of Iran that this most virulent anti-Israeli country supports by far the largest Jewish population of any Muslim country.

While Jewish communities in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Morocco and Algeria have all but vanished, Iran is home to 25,000 - some here say 35,000 - Jews. The Jewish population is less than half the number that lived here before the Islamic revolution of 1979. But the Jews have tried to compensate for their diminishing numbers by adopting a new religious fervor.

''The funny thing is that before the Islamic revolution, you would see maybe 20 old men in the synagogue,'' whispers Nahit Eliyason, 48, as she climbs over four other women to find one of the few vacant seats. ''Now the place is full. You can barely find a seat.'' Parvis Yashaya, a film producer who heads Tehran's Jewish community, adds: ''We are smaller, but we are stronger in some ways.''

Tehran has 11 functioning synagogues, many of them with Hebrew schools. It has two kosher restaurants, and a Jewish hospital, an old-age home and a cemetery. There is a Jewish representative in the Iranian parliament. There is a Jewish library with 20,000 titles, its reading room decorated with a photograph of the Ayatollah Khomeini.

Khomeini protection

Iran's Jewish community is confronted by contradictions. Many of the prayers uttered in synagogue, for instance, refer to the desire to see Jerusalem again. Yet there is no postal service or telephone contact with Israel, and any Iranian who dares travel to Israel faces imprisonment and passport confiscation. ''We are Jews, not Zionists. We are a religious community, not a political one,'' Yashaya said.

Before the revolution, Jews were well-represented among Iran's business elite, holding key posts in the oil industry, banking and law, as well as in the traditional bazaar. The wave of anti-Israeli sentiment that swept Iran during the revolution, as well as large-scale confiscations of private wealth, sent thousands of the more affluent Jews fleeing to the United States or Israel. Those remaining lived in fear of pogroms, or massacres.

But Khomeini met with the Jewish community upon his return from exile in Paris and issued a ''fatwa'' decreeing that the Jews were to be protected. Similar edicts also protect Iran's tiny Christian minority.

Just as it radically transformed Muslim society, the revolution changed the Jews. Families that had been secular in the 1970s started keeping kosher and strictly observing rules against driving on Shabbat. They stopped going to restaurants, cafes and cinemas - many such establishments were closed down - and the synagogue perforce became the focal point of their social lives.



Jewish school in Shiraz

Iranian Jews say they socialize far less with Muslims now than before the revolution. As a whole, they occupy their own separate space within the rigid confines of the Islamic republic, a protected yet precarious niche.

Jewish women, like Muslim women, are required by law to keep their heads covered, although most eschew the chador for a simple scarf. But Jews, unlike Muslims, can keep small flasks of home-brewed wine or arrack to drink within the privacy of their homes - in theory, for religious purposes. Some Hebrew schools are coed, and men and women dance with each other at weddings, practices strictly forbidden for Muslims.

''Sometimes I think they are kinder to the Jews than they are to themselves. ... If we are gathered in a house, and the family is having a ceremony with wine or the music is playing too loud, if they find out we are Jews, they don't bother us so much,'' Eliyason said.

''Everywhere in the world there are people who don't like Jews. In England, they draw swastikas on Jewish graves. I don't think that Iran is more dangerous for Jews than other places.''

Some problems exist

Testimony from Jews who have left Iran suggests more serious problems than those cited by Jews inside the country. In written testimony to a congressional subcommittee in February 1996, an Iranian Jew complained of being imprisoned for two years on trumped-up charges of spying for Israel. He also said his arrest was preceded by harassment at work and pressure to convert to Islam. Inside Iran, Jews say that they frequently receive alarmed telephone calls and letters from relatives in the United States concerned about their well-being, but that they themselves do not feel physically endangered. Their major complaint is the inability to visit family in Israel, and what they say is inadequate funding for Hebrew schools, which are administered by the Iranian Ministry of Education.

Although many Jews hold jobs in government ministries or within state-owned firms, they say they are unlikely to rise to top positions. In addition, Iran's strict Islamic law, or ''sharia,'' contains many discriminatory provisions toward non-Muslims.

Jews 'part of Iran'

Still, Jewish leaders say their community has far stronger roots in Iran than other Middle East Jewish communities, which were virtually eradicated by massive immigration to Israel in the 1940s and 1950s. Esther, the biblical Jewish queen who saved her people from persecution in the fifth century B.C., is reputed to be buried in Hamadan, in western Iran. The grave of the Old Testament prophet Daniel lies in southwestern Iran.

''We are different from the Jews of the diaspora. You see the name 'Persia' in the Old Testament almost as often as the name 'Israel.' The Iranian Jews are very much part of Iran,'' said Gad Naim, 60, who runs the old-age home in Tehran. Iranian Jews trace their history to the reign of Persia's King Cyrus. As the Bible tells it, Cyrus conquered Babylonia in 539 B.C., liberated the Jews from captivity, and raised funds for the rebuilding of their destroyed temple in Jerusalem. The return of the Jews to Jerusalem at that time was accompanied by a large migration to the lands that were then Persia, and now Iran.

In Esfahan, an Iranian city fabled for its intricate Persian tile work, the first Persian Jews were settled under the reign of Cyrus. The ancient city was once known as Dar-Al-Yahud (''House of the Jews'' in Farsi), and as late as the 19th century it was the home of 100,000 Jews, according to Elias Haronian, head of Esfahan's Jewish community.

Today, the city is a repository of Jewish lore. It has a cemetery with Jewish graves 2,000 years old, stunning synagogues and Jewish mausoleums with tiles to rival those of the mosques - but a population of only 1,500 Jews.

What happened to the Jews?

Some converted centuries ago. Indeed, in Muslim villages surrounding Esfahan, a distinctive Jewish dialect of Farsi is spoken, and Muslims still follow certain Jewish rituals, such as lighting candles on Fridays. Others left for Tehran, or for California or New York. Some went to Israel.

''It is not that life is so difficult for us, but a minority is a minority... We are like a glass of water in the sea,'' Haronian said. Haronian, a petroleum engineer, worries less about persecution than about the faltering Iranian economy, the lack of job opportunities for his four children, and the shortage of suitable Jewish spouses. ''There are very few Jewish boys here. There are so few of us,'' said his 17-year-old daughter, Shirin. At Esfahan's Hebrew school, students confided that they are deeply torn between a love of their homeland and a desire to escape from the stifling isolation of Iran.

The decision to stay or go may rest largely on Mohammad Khatami, a relatively progressive cleric who won a landslide election May 23 as the next president of Iran. Although he is virulently anti-Israel in his public comments, Khatami was considered sympathetic to the Jews during his term as Iran's minister of culture and Islamic guidance. He paid a campaign visit to a social club for Jewish women in Tehran. ''We expect more freedom, an easier life, not just for Jews, for everybody,'' said Farangis Hassidim, an administrator of Tehran's Jewish hospital.

Not everyone in the Jewish community favors liberalization of Iranian society. Arizel Levihim, 20, a prospective Hebrew teacher, said Judaism has fared better within the confines of Iran's strictly religious society. ''I believe it is good for women to keep their head covered. I think it is good to restrict relations between boys and girls,'' Levihim said. ''I agree with the ideals of the Islamic republic. These are Jewish values too."

[Zapatista]

Neither can you blame today's conflict on the Americans and British, while ignoring the fact that the same issues were being fought over thousands of years ago. I'm not saying that today's superpowers haven't exacerbated the problems, but it's simplistic to think that if the Americans would only back off, the people of the area would settle down and live as good neighbours. The same reasoning holds that if the British govt would just announce its intention to quit the north, there'd be a huge party and we'd have a 32 county state in the morning.

You are either delusional or you haven't read any of my comments and are posting responces at random.

These Issues were not being fought over 1000s of years ago. Palestine, Israel, Iran the US etc didn't exist as states 1000s of years ago. Islam didn't exist 1000s of years ago. Oil (as we have become dependant on it) wasn't an issue Nuclear weapons did not exist. Zionism did not exist and the Holocaust hadn't happened. Unless you read otherwise in a book somewhere 

No one is asking the Americans to back off. They are being asked to exercise their influence to stop the genocide. They can't avoid their responsibility. The comment about the Brits and the north is just gibberish.

[Hedley Lamarr]

TO you obviously have a problem with Dixie.....maybe he spurned your advances at the Chestnut Lodge
Are you suggesting that by not being on the flotilla that he knew that people were going to be killed?
This is a pathetic attempt from a Sarah Palin cheerleader
Why don't you get down to your local army recruitment office and sign up, come on over here and sort the whole thing out....after all you know it all    

[Myles Na G.]

Neither can you blame today's conflict on the Americans and British, while ignoring the fact that the same issues were being fought over thousands of years ago. I'm not saying that today's superpowers haven't exacerbated the problems, but it's simplistic to think that if the Americans would only back off, the people of the area would settle down and live as good neighbours. The same reasoning holds that if the British govt would just announce its intention to quit the north, there'd be a huge party and we'd have a 32 county state in the morning.

You are either delusional or you haven't read any of my comments and are posting responces at random.

These Issues were not being fought over 1000s of years ago. Palestine, Israel, Iran the US etc didn't exist as states 1000s of years ago. Islam didn't exist 1000s of years ago. Oil (as we have become dependant on it) wasn't an issue Nuclear weapons did not exist. Zionism did not exist and the Holocaust hadn't happened. Unless you read otherwise in a book somewhere 

No one is asking the Americans to back off. They are being asked to exercise their influence to stop the genocide. They can't avoid their responsibility. The comment about the Brits and the north is just gibberish.

The Jewish and Arab peoples existed and they fought over territory. What's changed? Names of states, different superpowers sticking their oar in to advance their own interests, better weaponry. So, fcuk all really.

[Zapatista]

The Jewish and Arab peoples existed and they fought over territory. What's changed? Names of states, different superpowers sticking their oar in to advance their own interests, better weaponry. So, fcuk all really.

That's madness. Europe has been the same for 1000s of years. Does that mean we should pass no remarks if the Spanish blockade Portugal? YOu have no point to make.

[pintsofguinness]

Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?

Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.

Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not

All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!

I dont understand how anyone that has an Irish flag as their avatar and days before a report on bloody sunday is published can come out with that nonsense. 
And your comment on John is just a sc**bag comment, something like you'd get from 5ivetimes, I thought you were a lot better than that TO

[give her dixie]

Folks, all the best for now, as there is no way i'm going to participate one minute longer on this board as long as a sc**bag with an Irish flag, and the word Tyrone beside it continues to personally attack me.

The moderators are not interested in moderating, so what is the point in continuing.

Good luck all.

[Myles Na G.]

Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?

Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.

Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not

All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!

I dont understand how anyone that has an Irish flag as their avatar and days before a report on bloody sunday is published can come out with that nonsense. 
And your comment on John is just a sc**bag comment, something like you'd get from 5ivetimes, I thought you were a lot better than that TO

What does the Bloody Sunday report have to with Israel and Palestine. Oh, right. For Big Bad Israel read Big Bad Brits. For poor oppressed Palestinians, read poor oppressed Irish, 800 years of struggle, blah, blah blah. Your post sums up the level of this debate. Blinkered, simplistic nonsense.