The Battle for Fermanagh and South Tyrone

[gallsman]

What's democratic about reducing the number of candidates for whom an individual can vote?

You're the one going on about democracy not me.

The relevance of this? Does this prevent you from answering the question Donagh?

I mentioned democracy as certain idiots on this thread are suggesting that the SDLP's refusal to stand down is purely to spite Sinn Fein.

Why should I answer it - the question is irrelevant to the concept of democracy, but as you are the one that chided others for not understanding the meaning of it, you would know that gallsman wouldn't you?

Donagh, saying something over and over again doesn't make it true. Why should you answer it? Because you're on a discussion board, that's why. The question is very obviously relevant to the concept of democracy. The ability to "choose" is one of the cornerstones of democracy, is it not?

Also, seeing as you dislike the SDLP so much, would you vote for them if you were a South Belfast resident? Would you not feel betrayed and angry that your party had abandoned you?

[ardmhachaabu]

You are getting to be rather tiresome Ulick, I much preferred you when you were Donagh.  Either you accept that the Shinners have been guilty of blatant sectarianism or you don't.  If you don't I would like to know why

[Ulick]

Donagh, saying something over and over again doesn't make it true. Why should you answer it? Because you're on a discussion board, that's why. The question is very obviously relevant to the concept of democracy. The ability to "choose" is one of the cornerstones of democracy, is it not?

Also, seeing as you dislike the SDLP so much, would you vote for them if you were a South Belfast resident? Would you not feel betrayed and angry that your party had abandoned you?

Is it? You tell me, I would have thought the cornerstone of democracy was representation of the people - I don't see what choice has to do with it, but maybe you want to explain that bit to me.

I've already said I will not vote for Alistair McDonnell. I'm not angry at my party abandoning me as I don't have a party.

[Ulick]

You are getting to be rather tiresome Ulick, I much preferred you when you were Donagh.  Either you accept that the Shinners have been guilty of blatant sectarianism or you don't.  If you don't I would like to know why

ardmhachaabu, if you've nothing constructive to add to the debate you're better off staying out of it.

[ardmhachaabu]

You are getting to be rather tiresome Ulick, I much preferred you when you were Donagh.  Either you accept that the Shinners have been guilty of blatant sectarianism or you don't.  If you don't I would like to know why

ardmhachaabu, if you've nothing constructive to add to the debate you're better off staying out of it.

In other words you don't want to answer me

[gallsman]

Donagh, saying something over and over again doesn't make it true. Why should you answer it? Because you're on a discussion board, that's why. The question is very obviously relevant to the concept of democracy. The ability to "choose" is one of the cornerstones of democracy, is it not?

Also, seeing as you dislike the SDLP so much, would you vote for them if you were a South Belfast resident? Would you not feel betrayed and angry that your party had abandoned you?

Is it? You tell me, I would have thought the cornerstone of democracy was representation of the people - I don't see what choice has to do with it, but maybe you want to explain that bit to me.

I've already said I will not vote for Alistair McDonnell. I'm not angry at my party abandoning me as I don't have a party.

Representation by who though? Anyone can claim to be representing someone or other. The beauty of democracy is that people get to choose who represents them.

If you won't vote for Alisdair McDonnell, why would or should an SDLP voter in FST vote for Gildernew if the SDLP stood down?

[omagh_gael]

Why don't you do the democratic thing Ulick and stick up a quick poll:

Are Sinn Fein being sectarian by withdrawing Alex Maskey from S Belfast?

Yes

No

[Ulick]

You are getting to be rather tiresome Ulick, I much preferred you when you were Donagh.  Either you accept that the Shinners have been guilty of blatant sectarianism or you don't.  If you don't I would like to know why

ardmhachaabu, if you've nothing constructive to add to the debate you're better off staying out of it.

In other words you don't want to answer me

ardmhachaabu I've put a number of propositions, suggestions and questions to you and you've avoided them all, only to come back with snide comments and inane insults. Now if you want to start behaving like a grown-up and debate the issues in mature and polite manner, I have no problems answering anything you want but first do me the courtesy of first contributing something to this debate before sidetracking it off somewhere else.

[Nally Stand]

Wonder what Maskey thinks of being told to stand down?

Alex Maskey wasn't told to stand down it was a collective decision by the leadership of the party  which includes Alex Maskey.This was a decision that was taken after nearly two days of deliberations and is an effort the maximise the Republican/Nationalist represention across the North. Yes Alex Maskey and all the Sinn Fein workers in South Belfast are dissappointed that they will not be fighting the election after all the hard work they have been doing in resent months but they except this decision and will now be throwing their weight behind their comrades in North Belfast who are trying to get Gerry Kelly elected.As for this being a sectarian move the big difference we see in the orange order bringing together all shades of Unionism to keep out a Nationalist is when these people get into positions of power they act in a sectarian manner by refusing to share power with the Nationalist Representatives as can been seen in council areas they control {eg Newtownabbey, Lisburn etc;} whereas when the SDLP or Sinn Fein hold the power in other areas they administer that power on an equal basis,this can be seen in council areas right across the North.So for me that what makes the decision in F&ST sectarian and and the decision for Sinn Fein to give the SDLP a free run in SB nonsectarian as we know that at least Alistair McDonnell will work for all his constituents on an equal basis

Let's face it. Everything Sinn Fein do is in the interests of Sinn  Fein, not the broad nationalist community but Sinn Fein.
This is  the same Sinn Fein who chose to have a Unionist Justice Minister over a nationalist one.

Unlike the SDLP who always look out for the interests of nationalism? The SDLP who, as I pointed out on this board before, only supported Sinn Fein in THREE out of EIGHTEEN councils on a motion put forward by SF in these councils to press for more All-Ireland co-operation with the Dublin Government a number of years ago? The same SDLP who in 2006 supported Irish citizens living in the north of Ireland to be subjected to compulsory "British National Identity" scheme? The same SDLP who voted in favour of 28 day detention without trial? The same SDLP who argued for provision for diplock courts in 2006? The same SDLP who in the same year argued in favour of primacy of MI5 in certain cases over a devolved policing system, and who once remarked that they had "no difficulty with a continuing MI5 role" in the north? The same SDLP who regarded Ronnie Flanagan as someone who was trying to "edge policing forward"? The same SDLP who are today assisting the Orange Order in their sectarian pact which aims to secure a unionist MP in a constituency with a maily nationalist population?
If you want to talk about the Justice post, rewind back to May 2006, when Mark Durkan stood in Westminster and said he supported - "the possibility of a single Justice minister to be elected by cross-community support and by parallel consent" . That is EXACTLY what happened, so what are the SDLP now complaining about?

If you dont want a Unionist in FST the answer is simple. Stand Gildernew down so that Nationalistts can support  McKinney and problem is solved.
You seem to care alot about Nationalists. You must therefore have been totally disgusted when Sinn Fein supported the IRA whenever they subjected Nationalists to intimidation, hijackings, threats, blowing up their homes while blowing up police stations, house takeovers etc

Honestly Gaffer I'm trying to take this seriously, meet me half way here. What is the use in remarks like "If you dont want a Unionist in FST the answer is simple. Stand Gildernew down so that Nationalistts can support  McKinney and problem is solved"?? Don't you understand the whole concept of a pact? The deal was the SDLP stand aside in one constituency (FST) and SF would do so in another (S. Belfast). And you have once again replied to a post without taking on any of my points, even the point about the justice position which was actually an issue YOU choose to bring up!! A real talent.

[Ulick]

Representation by who though? Anyone can claim to be representing someone or other. The beauty of democracy is that people get to choose who represents them.

If you won't vote for Alisdair McDonnell, why would or should an SDLP voter in FST vote for Gildernew if the SDLP stood down?

Representing the views of the people, which gets back to my original point again. By standing in FST are the SDLP not denying the right of the majority people there to be represented by someone who shares their view? You seem to be advocating choice for choices sake, not as an integral part of the democratic concept - which is why I originally said your question was not relevant.

I didn't say an SDLP voter in FST should vote for Gildernew. They still have a choice, don't vote, spoil their vote, or vote for the one advocating the union with Britain - it's not as though voting for the SDLP will somehow add up to anything more than a spoiled vote.

[gallsman]

Wonder what Maskey thinks of being told to stand down?

Alex Maskey wasn't told to stand down it was a collective decision by the leadership of the party  which includes Alex Maskey.This was a decision that was taken after nearly two days of deliberations and is an effort the maximise the Republican/Nationalist represention across the North. Yes Alex Maskey and all the Sinn Fein workers in South Belfast are dissappointed that they will not be fighting the election after all the hard work they have been doing in resent months but they except this decision and will now be throwing their weight behind their comrades in North Belfast who are trying to get Gerry Kelly elected.As for this being a sectarian move the big difference we see in the orange order bringing together all shades of Unionism to keep out a Nationalist is when these people get into positions of power they act in a sectarian manner by refusing to share power with the Nationalist Representatives as can been seen in council areas they control {eg Newtownabbey, Lisburn etc;} whereas when the SDLP or Sinn Fein hold the power in other areas they administer that power on an equal basis,this can be seen in council areas right across the North.So for me that what makes the decision in F&ST sectarian and and the decision for Sinn Fein to give the SDLP a free run in SB nonsectarian as we know that at least Alistair McDonnell will work for all his constituents on an equal basis

Let's face it. Everything Sinn Fein do is in the interests of Sinn  Fein, not the broad nationalist community but Sinn Fein.
This is  the same Sinn Fein who chose to have a Unionist Justice Minister over a nationalist one.

Unlike the SDLP who always look out for the interests of nationalism? The SDLP who, as I pointed out on this board before, only supported Sinn Fein in THREE out of EIGHTEEN councils on a motion put forward by SF in these councils to press for more All-Ireland co-operation with the Dublin Government a number of years ago? The same SDLP who in 2006 supported Irish citizens living in the north of Ireland to be subjected to compulsory "British National Identity" scheme? The same SDLP who voted in favour of 28 day detention without trial? The same SDLP who argued for provision for diplock courts in 2006? The same SDLP who in the same year argued in favour of primacy of MI5 in certain cases over a devolved policing system, and who once remarked that they had "no difficulty with a continuing MI5 role" in the north? The same SDLP who regarded Ronnie Flanagan as someone who was trying to "edge policing forward"? The same SDLP who are today assisting the Orange Order in their sectarian pact which aims to secure a unionist MP in a constituency with a maily nationalist population?
If you want to talk about the Justice post, rewind back to May 2006, when Mark Durkan stood in Westminster and said he supported - "the possibility of a single Justice minister to be elected by cross-community support and by parallel consent" . That is EXACTLY what happened, so what are the SDLP now complaining about?

If you dont want a Unionist in FST the answer is simple. Stand Gildernew down so that Nationalistts can support  McKinney and problem is solved.
You seem to care alot about Nationalists. You must therefore have been totally disgusted when Sinn Fein supported the IRA whenever they subjected Nationalists to intimidation, hijackings, threats, blowing up their homes while blowing up police stations, house takeovers etc

Honestly Gallsman I'm trying to take this seriously, meet me half way here. What is the use in remarks like "If you dont want a Unionist in FST the answer is simple. Stand Gildernew down so that Nationalistts can support  McKinney and problem is solved"?? Don't you understand the whole concept of a pact? The deal was the SDLP stand aside in one constituency (FST) and SF would do so in another (S. Belfast). And you have once again replied to a post without taking on any of my points. A real talent.

And you have once again displayed your inability to read. A real (lack of) talent. Jumping headfirst into a debate without being sure of your footing is just slightly foolish now.

I'm still waiting for you to answer me whether or not you're a bigot.

[Ulick]

Why don't you do the democratic thing Ulick and stick up a quick poll:

Are Sinn Fein being sectarian by withdrawing Alex Maskey from S Belfast?

Yes

No

Not a bad suggestion omagh_gael, but how about:

Is maximising the support for your position on the 'National Question' sectarian?

Yes
No

[ardmhachaabu]

Ulick, I have answered your questions each and every time yet when I have asked you this one simple thing you refuse to.

I have given my contribution to the question whether or not the Shinners were being sectarian.  I have said I believe that they were and have asked you several times if you consider them to be sectarain in their actions.  You have so far refused to answer that and now in your characteristic manner you are attempting to patronise me and say that somehow I am sidetracking the 'debate'

You are so full of your own self-importance that you can't see the wood for the trees.

[gallsman]

Why don't you do the democratic thing Ulick and stick up a quick poll:

Are Sinn Fein being sectarian by withdrawing Alex Maskey from S Belfast?

Yes

No

Not a bad suggestion omagh_gael, but how about:

Is maximising the support for your position on the 'National Question' sectarian?

Yes
No

Are you capable of doing anything without spin?

[Nally Stand]

[quote author=Gaffer link=topic=16011.msg769924#msg769924 date=1271793507]
Wonder what Maskey thinks of being told to stand down?

Alex Maskey wasn't told to stand down it was a collective decision by the leadership of the party  which includes Alex Maskey.This was a decision that was taken after nearly two days of deliberations and is an effort the maximise the Republican/Nationalist represention across the North. Yes Alex Maskey and all the Sinn Fein workers in South Belfast are dissappointed that they will not be fighting the election after all the hard work they have been doing in resent months but they except this decision and will now be throwing their weight behind their comrades in North Belfast who are trying to get Gerry Kelly elected.As for this being a sectarian move the big difference we see in the orange order bringing together all shades of Unionism to keep out a Nationalist is when these people get into positions of power they act in a sectarian manner by refusing to share power with the Nationalist Representatives as can been seen in council areas they control {eg Newtownabbey, Lisburn etc;} whereas when the SDLP or Sinn Fein hold the power in other areas they administer that power on an equal basis,this can be seen in council areas right across the North.So for me that what makes the decision in F&ST sectarian and and the decision for Sinn Fein to give the SDLP a free run in SB nonsectarian as we know that at least Alistair McDonnell will work for all his constituents on an equal basis

Let's face it. Everything Sinn Fein do is in the interests of Sinn  Fein, not the broad nationalist community but Sinn Fein.
This is  the same Sinn Fein who chose to have a Unionist Justice Minister over a nationalist one.

Unlike the SDLP who always look out for the interests of nationalism? The SDLP who, as I pointed out on this board before, only supported Sinn Fein in THREE out of EIGHTEEN councils on a motion put forward by SF in these councils to press for more All-Ireland co-operation with the Dublin Government a number of years ago? The same SDLP who in 2006 supported Irish citizens living in the north of Ireland to be subjected to compulsory "British National Identity" scheme? The same SDLP who voted in favour of 28 day detention without trial? The same SDLP who argued for provision for diplock courts in 2006? The same SDLP who in the same year argued in favour of primacy of MI5 in certain cases over a devolved policing system, and who once remarked that they had "no difficulty with a continuing MI5 role" in the north? The same SDLP who regarded Ronnie Flanagan as someone who was trying to "edge policing forward"? The same SDLP who are today assisting the Orange Order in their sectarian pact which aims to secure a unionist MP in a constituency with a maily nationalist population?
If you want to talk about the Justice post, rewind back to May 2006, when Mark Durkan stood in Westminster and said he supported - "the possibility of a single Justice minister to be elected by cross-community support and by parallel consent" . That is EXACTLY what happened, so what are the SDLP now complaining about?

If you dont want a Unionist in FST the answer is simple. Stand Gildernew down so that Nationalistts can support  McKinney and problem is solved.
You seem to care alot about Nationalists. You must therefore have been totally disgusted when Sinn Fein supported the IRA whenever they subjected Nationalists to intimidation, hijackings, threats, blowing up their homes while blowing up police stations, house takeovers etc

Honestly Gallsman I'm trying to take this seriously, meet me half way here. What is the use in remarks like "If you dont want a Unionist in FST the answer is simple. Stand Gildernew down so that Nationalistts can support  McKinney and problem is solved"?? Don't you understand the whole concept of a pact? The deal was the SDLP stand aside in one constituency (FST) and SF would do so in another (S. Belfast). And you have once again replied to a post without taking on any of my points. A real talent.

And you have once again displayed your inability to read. A real (lack of) talent.
[/quote]

Well Gallsman, I did actually read your response and I also read your point about the Justice position, and gave a response to it with a question which you for some reason have chosen not to answer.