Religion.

[thejuice]

I think there is a lot of misconceptions about religion and faith in western Europe especially in thinking of ones own faith. Christianity spread mainly for political and power gaining reasons than the word of God being an epiphany to some savage tribes. Kings who converted did so in order to gain allies and were just as blood thirsty the day after their baptism as they were the day before.

The early Christians and Pagans of Spain switched to Islam almost instantly as the Moors arrived from North Africa. There is little evidence of a struggle, they just did so for protection. I'm pretty sure it was no different in Ireland, Pagans either converted or were slain.

At the same time church has a role to play in the community in bringing people together, just like sports clubs, pubs and others do. Its in the same in all religions. The diminishing role of the church has in some way lead to the fragmenting of communities as has other changes in society. But humans are social creatures and something is needed to bring communities back together. But with so many different religions now and faithless people its unlikely to be one of faith that brings people together.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

I think there is a lot of misconceptions about religion and faith in western Europe especially in thinking of ones own faith. Christianity spread mainly for political and power gaining reasons than the word of God being an epiphany to some savage tribes. Kings who converted did so in order to gain allies and were just as blood thirsty the day after their baptism as they were the day before.

The early Christians and Pagans of Spain switched to Islam almost instantly as the Moors arrived from North Africa. There is little evidence of a struggle, they just did so for protection. I'm pretty sure it was no different in Ireland, Pagans either converted or were slain.

At the same time church has a role to play in the community in bringing people together, just like sports clubs, pubs and others do. Its in the same in all religions. The diminishing role of the church has in some way lead to the fragmenting of communities as has other changes in society. But humans are social creatures and something is needed to bring communities back together. But with so many different religions now and faithless people its unlikely to be one of faith that brings people together.

Good post Juice, a lot of people don't realise that the same thing happened to Judasim, it spread across North Africa, into the Caucuses, the Russian Steppes, it even reached parts of Iran, Afganistan, Rome, Roman and Carthage Iberian colonies  & Greece, Yemen and Ethopia. In fact this spread and conversion rather than the exoduses of ancient Israelites or Judeans that are the origins of most of the Worlds Jews now claiming modern Israel and Palestine as their ancient homeland.

Buddhism spread from Ancient Greece to Mongolia to Modern Bali the same way.

Ancient Greek Gods ended up in Bactra (Central Asia), Egypt, Persia, Mesopotamia, Afganistan.

Celtic, Nordic & Germanic Gods had huge gerographical spreads due to the same converstion of convenience.

[Pangurban]

The hows and whys of the spread of religions, have nothing to do with the internal truths contained within them. The current problems of faith arose because we stopped practising religion and started studying it. Faith transcends logic and reason and our meagre capacity to understand. We have distorted values e.g. here in ireland we go to Mass to fulfil our religious duty, when in fact we should be leaving Mass to do our duty as Christians who have been spiritually nourished by it

[Lawrence of Knockbride]

Nicely put The Juice and mayogod......It's great to put some facts in the relgious debate. Not sure what your point is Pangurban. The internal truths? You don't think it's a good idea to study what we believe in? Just accept it blindly? Faith is caused by the power of our minds which we can't comprehend and for some reason refuse to accept. There are no truths, just beliefs. You say we have a meagre capacity to understand faith. Can you explain what you mean by that?

[heganboy]

and one more
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yxXOvpGIso

[muppet]

The hows and whys of the spread of religions, have nothing to do with the internal truths contained within them. The current problems of faith arose because we stopped practising religion and started studying it. Faith transcends logic and reason and our meagre capacity to understand. We have distorted values e.g. here in ireland we go to Mass to fulfil our religious duty, when in fact we should be leaving Mass to do our duty as Christians who have been spiritually nourished by it

Agree with a lot of that except that it is always natural that we study religion and anything else we come across. Our capacity to understand things has evolved due to our appetite to study everything.

The concept of 'here is something I need you to do, you won't understand it, but you must follow it and don't bother analysing it' as a way of life for the masses doesn't work with me and I don't think it will last long in the modern world.

[Pangurban]

Study can be an aid  to a deeper understanding of our faith and beliefs, but it will never instil faith. Faith is rooted in a deep primeval instict. Unless you become as little children, you can never know God

[Zapatista]

I think there is a lot of misconceptions about religion and faith in western Europe especially in thinking of ones own faith. Christianity spread mainly for political and power gaining reasons than the word of God being an epiphany to some savage tribes. Kings who converted did so in order to gain allies and were just as blood thirsty the day after their baptism as they were the day before.

The early Christians and Pagans of Spain switched to Islam almost instantly as the Moors arrived from North Africa. There is little evidence of a struggle, they just did so for protection. I'm pretty sure it was no different in Ireland, Pagans either converted or were slain.

At the same time church has a role to play in the community in bringing people together, just like sports clubs, pubs and others do. Its in the same in all religions. The diminishing role of the church has in some way lead to the fragmenting of communities as has other changes in society. But humans are social creatures and something is needed to bring communities back together. But with so many different religions now and faithless people its unlikely to be one of faith that brings people together.

Good post Juice, a lot of people don't realise that the same thing happened to Judasim, it spread across North Africa, into the Caucuses, the Russian Steppes, it even reached parts of Iran, Afganistan, Rome, Roman and Carthage Iberian colonies  & Greece, Yemen and Ethopia. In fact this spread and conversion rather than the exoduses of ancient Israelites or Judeans that are the origins of most of the Worlds Jews now claiming modern Israel and Palestine as their ancient homeland.

Buddhism spread from Ancient Greece to Mongolia to Modern Bali the same way.

Ancient Greek Gods ended up in Bactra (Central Asia), Egypt, Persia, Mesopotamia, Afganistan.

Celtic, Nordic & Germanic Gods had huge gerographical spreads due to the same converstion of convenience.

All these religions evolved and changed through their travels and through the ages. Christianity is a very different beast now than the one that arrived here with Patrick. Not only that but there are many different versions of the major religions. This shows that even though they did expand to the far corners of the world they were often altered to be made acceptable. The smaller the world got the more the larger religons spread and changed.

[muppet]

Study can be an aid  to a deeper understanding of our faith and beliefs, but it will never instil faith. Faith is rooted in a deep primeval instict. Unless you become as little children, you can never know God

The problem with a statement like this is it sounds good but doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Fight or flight is an instinct which appears in every race and culture around the world. Belief in your/my God is not an instinct which appears in every race and culture around the world. Therefore it cannot be an instinct.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Study can be an aid  to a deeper understanding of our faith and beliefs, but it will never instil faith. Faith is rooted in a deep primeval instict. Unless you become as little children, you can never know God

The problem with a statement like this is it sounds good but doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Fight or flight is an instinct which appears in every race and culture around the world. Belief in your/my God is not an instinct which appears in every race and culture around the world. Therefore it cannot be an instinct.

True the Huns where generally a mixute of Tengriism followers & Atheists. Yes Tengriism is a religion but a huge proportion of their ranks where atheists. As we know the Huns had many Bulgars, Turkic, Mongolians, Germanics, Hungars & Proto-Chinese and other Central Asian and East-European peoples in their ranks too. So a huge number of these varied peoples where atheists.

Also what about the Communist World.

The Invention of lieing is a wonderful film.

[Pangurban]

Muppet i have tried to think of one civilisation or culture that was not possessed of some spiritual or supernatural belief, perhaps you could enlighten me

[J70]

Study can be an aid  to a deeper understanding of our faith and beliefs, but it will never instil faith. Faith is rooted in a deep primeval instict. Unless you become as little children, you can never know God

Just because we may be predisposed to believe in a higher power does not mean that there is a higher power to believe in.

[muppet]

Muppet i have tried to think of one civilisation or culture that was not possessed of some spiritual or supernatural belief, perhaps you could enlighten me

Imagine (hypothetically) the 1st day of the first civilisation or culture. My guess is the primeval instincts would be survival, reproduction and possibly some worship.

Hypothetically again, imagine the day before that.

My guess is that the primeval instincts would be survival and reproduction.

Our instincts outdate civilisations and cultures by millions of years. Religion is a very recent development relative to the age of life on earth.

[Pangurban]

With all due respect that statement is total nonsense, are you seriously implying that human instincts pre-date humans. You are too intelligent to suggest that, so what do you mean. Can you name one civilisation,society or culture, that did not practise some form of worship, of what they perceived to be a higher power, be it the Sun,Fire, or a diety, that is the religious spiritual instinct which exists within every human person, though some thinking themselves enlightened , would try to deny it

[Hardy]

It seems odd to me to be pointing to human instinct as a proof that religious belief is based on some truth (if that's what you're doing, Pangurban). For one thing, we must ask which religion does this instinct validate, since no two religions agree with each other (otherwise why would we have different religions?).

If the postulated "religious instinct" is an argument for the truth of Christianity, I thought one of the fundamental principles of Christiality was that we should not indulge our instincts. Indeed, given the obsession with the suppression of one particular instinct, one could be forgiven for assuming that this is the most important Christian principle of all.