The Poppy

[Evil Genius]

'In fact, unlike a (seemingly depressingly high) number of Irish people, modern Germany demonstrates a highly mature attitude towards former enemies, as the following episode from as recently as last week demonstrates'

Yeah, well maybe when our country is reunited too and the occupiers have left, then we can afford to be magnanimous to our enemy,

If and when "your" country should ever be "reunited" [sic], there will still be a million "occupiers" who will be going nowhere.
And what's more, I have no doubt that many will continue to buy and wear Poppies, as they have done virtually since the last time "your" country was "united" - in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland! 

you patronising p***k

Charming. Did you get that from the document below, or is it your own contribution to unity and reconciliation?
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/16516

[Evil Genius]

Dear Evil Genius,

Does Germany commemorate their dead from two world wars?

Kind regards

Orior

Dear Orior,

Why not ask a German? I think there's one in the picture in post # 391.

Kind Regards,

EG

[Evil Genius]

Tut tut, as well as mangling an Irish county name, you're also mangling your (German) queen's latin: Do you mean et al., or inter alia? 

You got me there. I should have known better than to quote Latin in the company of so many Romans...

[AZOffaly]

Jaysus Lads. I'd forgive EG, but any fíor gael should know it's AZO-F-F-A-L-Y. 2 'F's 1 'L'. It's a county for Jaysus' sake

Righto, "AZKingsCounty" it is, then

Not our fault he liked the place. He must have been a big fan of turf

The Ó Conchubhair Fáilghe must have been spinning in their tombs

[Evil Genius]

Gobshite, the fact is, if the poppy was worn as a commemoration of the two world wars rather than as a reminder to many Irish people in the wee six of the war crimes committed by the UDR and the RUC masquerading as loyalist "terrorists" then perhaps we would grant you your wee parade. 

"The fact is" that Poppy-wearing is neither of the things you describe. Rather, the Poppy is worn to commemorate those members of the armed services who lost their lives in various conflicts since the 1st WW, and to support their families and bereaved.

But that cannot be until such times as acknowledgement of state terrorism is confronted.

Whether you ever get the "acknowledgement" you seek or not, people will still be free to wear the Poppy, or decline to wear it, as they choose.
Get used to it.

[Evil Genius]

Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel take part in the Armistice Day ceremony at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris.

What's the difference between what Frau Merkel is up to in your photo and what the gentleman (an Irishman I believe) in this photo is doing?

At which ceremony/location was that photograph of Maskey taken?

Perhaps you could also tell me exactly who you think the gentleman (known simply as Torrens to erstwhile gaaboard poster 'the dowie') in the middle of the photo below is commerating.



Bear in mind that the picture was taken as the individual was being led into court to be charged with mass murder, including that of a former UDR man.

Notwithstanding the greater significance of the fact that the two officers who are delivering him to where he richly belongs (prison) are also both wearing Poppies, I know for a fact that Unionists were overwhemingly disgusted that a sc**bag like Knight should have defiled a cherished symbol.

That said, regrettable though it is, it is not the first time such a symbol has been misappropriated for sick and twisted political ends in NI, as this photograph of the funeral of the murderous vermin, Thomas Begley, illustrates:

[Evil Genius]

[any more than someone wearing a GAA top as a demonstration of his "Irishness" (Gaeldom?) might be perceived to be "rubbing the other sides noses in it"?

Don't wear mine to show my Irishness at all, wear it to show I'm from County Mayo, wouldn't claim its the best place in the Universe, but clearly the best by a country kilometer in the Milky Way.

No doubt that's true about you and your GAA top. But in certain circumstances, the wearing of such a top might be capable of sending out a different signal. That said, I do not automatically ascribe an ulterior motive to every GAA top wearer I see; similarly, other people should not do the same when they see someone wearing a Poppy.
That's what it's all about, really, fairness and respect.

Also the GAA is not an Army, terrorist organisation or military in any way.

Never said it was, even if certain elements within it seem to get "confused" on occasion:

Perhaps the Easter Lilly is a closer comparison, but then again when I look at someone wearing one of those the first thought that comes to my head is the same as if I see someone wearing a poppy, and that first thought is t**t (and not in the good way)

Perhaps not. I consider this flower to be the true equivalent the Easter Lily, not the Poppy (and not just on botanical grounds, either!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BzYtUFwQkc
(With all due apologies to music lovers...)

[Evil Genius]

Third, if more people in NI display Poppies more often than people in certain parts of GB, then that may be explained by the fact that many more people in NI (from one community at least) have friends and relatives in the Armed Forces, including ones who have been killed or injured.

Genuine question. Is that true? Can you point to stats that back that fact up?

Not quickly or easily, no. However, I have little doubt that it is true, essentially for two reasons.

First, for political, social and economic reasons, the British Army (and Navy) have traditionally recruited disproportionately from the fringes of the UK (Scotland, Wales and Ireland). this explains why eg there are so many Irish Regiments; Enniskillen, for instance, is the only town in the entire British Isles which has had two Regiments named for it (Fusilleers and Dragoons). Or, it is a little known fact that 20% of Nelson's Navy at the battle of Trafalgar is estimated to have been made up of Irish sailors.

Second, during the Troubles, around 30,000 locals were recruited to "home service" regiments (UDR, RIR etc). When you add NI recruits to the "regular" Army, RAF, RN and TA etc, there cannot be too many families from the Unionist community at least, who have not had at least one reasonably close member with some sort of membership of the Armed Forces.

[A Quinn Martin Production]

Tut tut, as well as mangling an Irish county name, you're also mangling your (German) queen's latin: Do you mean et al., or inter alia? 

You got me there. I should have known better than to quote Latin in the company of so many Romans...

Or Yiddish amongst followers of a Jew. "Yarmulke"  

I was replying to a post of yours but it seems to have been lost in the poppy frenzy.  It was the one where you said about the poppy having special resonance with the people of NI due to the Enniskillen bomb.  I would disagree with that point.  My job takes me on to the streets of Skintown almost every day and as I commented before it my perception that the amount of poppies being worn here is falling.  My evidence is that when I came here in 1993 there seemed to be far more people sporting poppies then.  Maybe it's a generational thing and some of these people have passed on.  While the bomb definitely does resonate (resound??) with the people of Enniskillen (both nationalist and unionist) they don't seem to demonstrate that with the wearing of a poppy.

Also while I'm in pedantic form, technically no-one "buys" a poppy.  One makes a charitable donation otherwise the Legion would get a whopping tax bill every year thus making Alistair Darling even more unpopular than he currently is!

[lynchbhoy]

I'm sure a few want to rub their noses in it but I'd also wager that the majority wear it for the 'proper reasons'.

Suspicion will never be lost in this country, that's for sure.

So is it just a case that unionists in the six counties are more patriotic and appreciative than the English?

It may be that some  Unionists in NI are more concerned to demonstrate their patriotism etc because their place in the UK has until recently been under greater challenge than that of their compatriots in England. I have no doubt, however, that there was an outpouring of overt patriotism throughout the UK during the Blitz of 1940, or the Falklands War in 1982, for instance.
Also, the Poppy has a particular resonance in NI following the Remembrance Day Massacre in Enniskillen in 1987. Perhaps that was the fault of Unionists, too? 

I dont buy that.

No, and you don't buy Poppies, either, yet you still take it upon yourself to dictate to those of us who do what our motives are. 

there ya go POG - enid cant back up his claim that it isnt badge wearing and the identifiable obviousness of the proportion of poppy wearers in the north of Ireland being more than those wearing poppies in england would go a long way to prove that it is indeed badge wearing and show that indeed it is indicative of the motives of these people (obviously some of these people would not be motivated by that but we all know the mindset of the oo/unionist/;loyalist fraternity in the north of Ireland !!  )

[delboy]

but we all know the mindset of the oo/unionist/;loyalist fraternity in the north of Ireland !!  )

So lots of people have this mind reading ability, well i never, is it something that you learnt in school (i must have been sick that day) or is it some sort of genetic inherited trait that only 'native' irish carry.

[lynchbhoy]

but we all know the mindset of the oo/unionist/;loyalist fraternity in the north of Ireland !!  )

So lots of people have this mind reading ability, well i never, is it something that you learnt in school (i must have been sick that day) or is it some sort of genetic inherited trait that only 'native' irish carry.

its a fairly obvious thing to most - as orange order parades and proportionately larger poppy wearing numbers are plain to see to europeans, English, yanks et all etc etc as well as us Irish !

[nifan]

What % of people in NI wear a poppy and what % in the rest of the uk?
We are hearing a lot about the proportions but nothing vaguely quantitative.

Any reasonable estimates?

[pintsofguinness]

Well I've said on here what my experiences are from living in England and have yet to get a explanation as to why there are far more poppies on display in the North than you would ever see here.  To clarify, again, I'm not talking about sales I'm talking about poppies being on display. 
Have you any suggestions why this is the case

First, you have produced no evidence to demonstrate that there are "far more" Poppies on display in NI than GB. By contrast, others have provided hard statistics to demonstrate that both the numbers of Poppies bought, and the money raised, in NI is broadly in line with that in GB.
Second, I would not trust your "experiences" - especially since they are contradicted by my own. I suspect you mean perception  rather than experience. For example, if you were drinking in a pub in the Outer Hebrides and two black guys walk in, you might do a "double take" before resuming your drink. But if you were in a pub in London, you wouldn't even notice. Yet its still the same number of black guys. Therefore, since you are clearly so sensitive to imagery and symbols etc, your perception alters accordingly.
Third, if more people in NI display Poppies more often than people in certain parts of GB, then that may be explained by the fact that many more people in NI (from one community at least) have friends and relatives in the Armed Forces, including ones who have been killed or injured.
Therefore, I daresay the incidence of Poppy-wearing in eg a multi-cultural, high immigrant inner city area of London may  be low, since the only military personnel locals or visitors see are guarding Buckingham Palace, or the Beefeaters in the Tower! But I guarantee that if you go to, say, Portsmouth, Aldershot, Colchester, Hereford, Catterick or the Scottish Borders etc, more people will be wearing Poppies than not.

or is is simply down to the fact that quite a few in NI want to rub the other sides noses in it?

Ah, here we get to the nub of the problem. Even if one of the motives of some Poppy wearers is to demonstrate their "Britishness", how is that "rubbing the other sides noses in it", any more than someone wearing a GAA top as a demonstration of his "Irishness" (Gaeldom?) might be perceived to be "rubbing the other sides noses in it"?
I am an Atheist, with no time for organised religion. Indeed, I find certain aspects of religious practice by the various Faiths to be objectionable to one degree or another.
But I have no right to project my feelings on others, or hold it against them in any way, merely because they might be displaying a Cross or Crescent, or wearing a Yamulka or Turban etc, since it is simply none of my business.

That's complete nonsense, I don't live in inner city London, I live in a rural English town that seems to be virtually untouched by immigrants, it also has some sort of army base (well I see dozens of soldiers out for their jog on my way to work most mornings).   For the third or fourth time I am not talking about poppy sales, I'm talking about people displaying poppies for the month of November.  Displaying and buying poppies are very different things, I'd throw money in to any of those charity boxes for daffodil day, breast cancer etc but probably wouldnt lift a badge never mind wear one, I'm sure it's same for people with the poppies.
What do you want me to do to prove you don't see that many here, take pictures of people not wearing poppies?  I don't see that many over here, either on sale or display.  You can't give me an reasonable explanation why that is the case and as a result I can only conclude that there are a lot of people in the North that wear poppies as a mark of identity. 

[red hander]

From yesterday's Belfast Telegraph

Final flypast: RAF pulls out of Northern Ireland (sic)

Nine Puma helicopters disappear into the skies as the last RAF squadron based in Northern Ireland flies out of Aldergrove for the final time.


People watched as the RAF's 230 'Tiger' Squadron took off in a helicopter diamond formation en route to their new base at RAF Benson in Oxfordshire.

They were soon little more than dots in the sky as they quickly headed away.

The flight marked the end of the RAF's 91-year history of flying from Aldergrove, and was the first time in six years that all the squadron personnel have been together.

Onlookers saw the distinctive formation of Puma helicopters fly from Aldergrove across parts of counties Antrim and Down before heading over the Irish Sea.

Wing Commander Rich Maddison said the flight marked the end of an era for the RAF in Northern Ireland.

"The people of Northern Ireland have been very good to the RAF and sadly this marks the end of an important chapter in the RAF's history," he said.

"This squadron could not have achieved all it has on operations over the past six years without the essential training we have been able to conduct in the province and we shall certainly miss being here."

In September the RAF flag was lowered at Aldergrove and replaced by that of the Joint Helicopter Force.

The squadron's command has also passed to the tri-service Joint Helicopter Force.

However aircraft from all three services will continue to use facilities while some RAF personnel will remain based at Aldergrove.


From Belfast Telegraph August 15 2009

For Sail? Belfast may lose First World War ship

By Linda Stewart

The last floating survivor of a pivotal First World War sea battle will probably be decommissioned by the end of the year, the Royal Navy has confirmed.


HMS Caroline, which has been moored in Belfast since 1924, needs around £3.5 million worth of refurbishment but the Royal Navy says it cannot foot the bill and the historic vessel is expected to change hands within months.

Heritage enthusiasts fear that while Belfast celebrates the Tall Ships and renovates SS Nomadic, the city could lose one of its finest historic ships once Caroline is decommissioned, as she could be moved to a maritime museum across the water.

The C-class light cruiser was launched and commissioned in 1914, making her the second-oldest ship in Royal Navy service after HMS Victory. She is the last remaining British World War I light cruiser in service and the only floating survivor to have fought at the Battle of Jutland, the only full-scale clash of battleships in that war.

Belfast councillor Lord Wallace Browne said Caroline is no longer suitable for the Royal Navy Reserves because of the amount of asbestos that would have to be removed at high cost.

And he said growing numbers of councillors and MLAs are concerned that, once decommissioned, HMS Caroline could be removed to a maritime museum in England.

"They feel it would be right to keep HMS Caroline in Belfast. There's a danger she could be removed from Belfast to go back to Portsmouth - it's all a matter of finance," he said.

"We hope enough people would be interested to mount a campaign that HMS Caroline should stay. If the money was found to remove the asbestos and make her safe, I think she could form part of the Titanic Signature Project."

Right, that's the British airforce and navy pulling out, how long before those 'heroes' of the Afghan war at Massereene and Ballykinler join them?