Peter McKenna

[Hardy]

Bud, you're going to have to slow down a bit for some of these lads. Some of the shite being spouted here would have you banging your head on the wall. Tradition, it seems overrides everything and people's perceived right to go where they like and do what they want is more important than the right of others to do what they MUST, never mind their safety.

Where did this right to do what you like come from? I have news - it doesn't exist. As you say, in civilised societies, people who ignore public safety announcements get arrested. Only in the GAA do you have people phoning radio programmes demanding to be able to rampage where they like, when they like and over anybody they like. And your granny just has to get out of the way, if she can. If she can't - ??

And what is the justification for this demand that everyone in a crowd of 80,000 should be his/her own safety officer? Apparently, it's the fact that it feels good. Well that's it, then. We can't have people's right to feel good infringed, regardless of the consequences for others. Abandon, repeal and cancel all the laws, then. I get a grand feeling driving at 120 mph. It's even more fun when I'm drunk and I have the added challenge of a winding road. If anyone tries to stop me with some stupid little regulation I'll be on to Joe Duffy pronto. So what if I kill your granny? What was she doing out in the middle of the road while I was exercising my traditional right to do what I want?

And I love the justification that goes "nobody was ever killed before". The stupidity of offering this as a logical argument is at a level unsurpassed even on Livewhine. Who would be the first caller-uppers if someone did get killed, complaining that we had to wait for someone to get killed to be able to understand that somebody COULD get killed? Most civilized societies accept that allowing fully-grown, fit young men to gallop unrestrained down steep steps, at the bottom of which may be small children or frail elderly people is a pretty good scenario for the odd fatality. You'd think Hillsborough never happened to listen to some here.

Then there's the Michael Kavanagh argument. I'll see that and raise it the Gooch/Larry Tompkins argument. Does the fat f**ker from Tyrone's right to scream abuse into Cooper's face after he played for his county in an All-Ireland final outweigh the duty of the GAA and its members to treat its players with respect and dignity? Does the violent b**tard from Meath who clouted Tompkins after an AIF retain the right to rampage around Croke Park and assault any player he likes because it's imperative that we maintain our "traditions". That abuse and disrespect for players alone is enough, to my mind, to clinch the argument that the pitch is for the players and the stands/terraces are for the fans.

I agree fully Bud, that a large part of the problem here is PR – the GAA's Achilles heel. And I think your charity idea is excellent. It's like the difference between two signs I saw in two pubs recently. One said "Children must be off the premises by 7:30". The other said "Children are welcome until 7:30". Same message, but two different worlds of communication. "Stay off the pitch" versus "We very much appreciate your co-operation in the presentation ceremony, proceeds of which will go to the Cormac fund".

[Jinxy]

Bud, you're going to have to slow down a bit for some of these lads. Some of the shite being spouted here would have you banging your head on the wall. Tradition, it seems overrides everything and people's perceived right to go where they like and do what they want is more important than the right of others to do what they MUST, never mind their safety.

Where did this right to do what you like come from? I have news - it doesn't exist. As you say, in civilised societies, people who ignore public safety announcements get arrested. Only in the GAA do you have people phoning radio programmes demanding to be able to rampage where they like, when they like and over anybody they like. And your granny just has to get out of the way, if she can. If she can't - ??

And what is the justification for this demand that everyone in a crowd of 80,000 should be his/her own safety officer? Apparently, it's the fact that it feels good. Well that's it, then. We can't have people's right to feel good infringed, regardless of the consequences for others. Abandon, repeal and cancel all the laws, then. I get a grand feeling driving at 120 mph. It's even more fun when I'm drunk and I have the added challenge of a winding road. If anyone tries to stop me with some stupid little regulation I'll be on to Joe Duffy pronto. So what if I kill your granny? What was she doing out in the middle of the road while I was exercising my traditional right to do what I want?

And I love the justification that goes "nobody was ever killed before". The stupidity of offering this as a logical argument is at a level unsurpassed even on Livewhine. Who would be the first caller-uppers if someone did get killed, complaining that we had to wait for someone to get killed to be able to understand that somebody COULD get killed? Most civilized societies accept that allowing fully-grown, fit young men to gallop unrestrained down steep steps, at the bottom of which may be small children or frail elderly people is a pretty good scenario for the odd fatality. You'd think Hillsborough never happened to listen to some here.

Then there's the Michael Kavanagh argument. I'll see that and raise it the Gooch/Larry Tompkins argument. Does the fat f**ker from Tyrone's right to scream abuse into Cooper's fate after he played for his county in an All-Ireland final outweigh the duty of the GAA and its members to treat its players with respect and dignity? Does the violent b**tard from Meath who clouted Tompkins after an AIF retain the right to rampage around Croke Park and assault any player he likes because it's imperative that we maintain our "traditions". That abuse and disrespect for players alone is enough, to my mind, to clinch the argument that the pitch is for the players and the stands/terraces are for the fans.

I agree fully Bud, that a large part of the problem here is PR – the GAA's Achilles heel. And I think your charity idea is excellent. It's like the difference between two signs I saw in two pubs recently. One said "Children must be off the premises by 7:30". The other said "Children are welcome until 7:30". Same message, but two different worlds of communication. "Stay off the pitch" versus "We very much appreciate your co-operation in the presentation ceremony, proceeds of which will go to the Cormac fund".

Could people please stop referencing Hillsborough?
It's actually the polar opposite of the pitch invasion scenario.
Also Hardy, you COULD get killed doing a lot of things.
That's no reason to stop doing them.

[Hardy]

Could people please stop referencing Hillsborough? It's actually the polar opposite of the pitch invasion scenario.

Why? It's an example of what can happen when crowd control fails and it's the event that woke people up to the dangers when things go wrong in large crowds, to the extent that the world of mass-attendance events now accepts the terminology "post-Hollsborough".

Also Hardy, you COULD get killed doing a lot of things.
That's no reason to stop doing them.

Of course, but that's simplifying my argument. Let me put it this way: do you think the situation at the front of Hill 16 on Sunday was acceptably safe and that there was a low probability of serious injury or even fatality -with Hillsborough (sorry) in mind? You might say the situation wouldn't have arisen if the pitch invasion wasn't banned. I disagree. I've seen enough crowd crush situations to know I wouldn't want my child (or my Granny) standing at the foot of Hill 16 when the yahoos charge at the final whistle, ban or no ban.

[SLIGONIAN]

Bud, you're going to have to slow down a bit for some of these lads. Some of the shite being spouted here would have you banging your head on the wall. Tradition, it seems overrides everything and people's perceived right to go where they like and do what they want is more important than the right of others to do what they MUST, never mind their safety.

Where did this right to do what you like come from? I have news - it doesn't exist. As you say, in civilised societies, people who ignore public safety announcements get arrested. Only in the GAA do you have people phoning radio programmes demanding to be able to rampage where they like, when they like and over anybody they like. And your granny just has to get out of the way, if she can. If she can't - ??

And what is the justification for this demand that everyone in a crowd of 80,000 should be his/her own safety officer? Apparently, it's the fact that it feels good. Well that's it, then. We can't have people's right to feel good infringed, regardless of the consequences for others. Abandon, repeal and cancel all the laws, then. I get a grand feeling driving at 120 mph. It's even more fun when I'm drunk and I have the added challenge of a winding road. If anyone tries to stop me with some stupid little regulation I'll be on to Joe Duffy pronto. So what if I kill your granny? What was she doing out in the middle of the road while I was exercising my traditional right to do what I want?

And I love the justification that goes "nobody was ever killed before". The stupidity of offering this as a logical argument is at a level unsurpassed even on Livewhine. Who would be the first caller-uppers if someone did get killed, complaining that we had to wait for someone to get killed to be able to understand that somebody COULD get killed? Most civilized societies accept that allowing fully-grown, fit young men to gallop unrestrained down steep steps, at the bottom of which may be small children or frail elderly people is a pretty good scenario for the odd fatality. You'd think Hillsborough never happened to listen to some here.

Then there's the Michael Kavanagh argument. I'll see that and raise it the Gooch/Larry Tompkins argument. Does the fat f**ker from Tyrone's right to scream abuse into Cooper's face after he played for his county in an All-Ireland final outweigh the duty of the GAA and its members to treat its players with respect and dignity? Does the violent b**tard from Meath who clouted Tompkins after an AIF retain the right to rampage around Croke Park and assault any player he likes because it's imperative that we maintain our "traditions". That abuse and disrespect for players alone is enough, to my mind, to clinch the argument that the pitch is for the players and the stands/terraces are for the fans.

I agree fully Bud, that a large part of the problem here is PR – the GAA's Achilles heel. And I think your charity idea is excellent. It's like the difference between two signs I saw in two pubs recently. One said "Children must be off the premises by 7:30". The other said "Children are welcome until 7:30". Same message, but two different worlds of communication. "Stay off the pitch" versus "We very much appreciate your co-operation in the presentation ceremony, proceeds of which will go to the Cormac fund".

I'll call the above post Waffle and Spin , your putting words in our mouth so to speak. We are saying no one got seriously injured, you say no got KILLED, can you see the difference and your spin to exarate it.

People perceived right to go where ever they want..did anyone say that, No, More spin.

I would say we are here in this Planet to enjoy and experience all the highs that can be reached, that to me is priceless and a way I live my life. I respect most rules, but this one is bullshit. We live in a democracy and the majority should be listened to than a couple of middle aged/old farts who try ruin the fun for all of us. None of us are the type to go on yell or hit players ffs.

If you bothered to read the posts you see most of us are saying let us on in a orderly fashion when the players are off the pitch up on the steps. Thus avoiding the above incidents and the rush.

[Jinxy]

I completely agree that the situation on Sunday was highly dangerous but that situation would not have occurred if we just let people on the pitch like we've always done (notwithstanding the half-hearted attempts to stop them which we've seen in recent years).
One of the stewards on liveline said that the fans were shouting "Plan B" at him long before the official announcement was made.
The fans fully expected to make it onto the pitch because they always had before. They became annoyed when the stewards were more forceful than usual but the aggression that was in evidence was very much a 2 way street.
Take away that aggression and sense of annoyance and you have a far safer scenario i.e the "normal" scenario.
People are not animals. They won't trample on each other just to get on the field.
The charge is usually led by kids anyway.
References to English soccer tragedies are largely irrelevant because
a) the demographics of the fans is completely different
b) the structure of the terracing is completely different i.e no fencing at the front
c) there is no associated risk of violence when large numbers of fans from opposing football or hurling teams come in contact with each other.

[SLIGONIAN]

I completely agree that the situation on Sunday was highly dangerous but that situation would not have occurred if we just let people on the pitch like we've always done (notwithstanding the half-hearted attempts to stop them which we've seen in recent years).
One of the stewards on liveline said that the fans were shouting "Plan B" at him long before the official announcement was made.
The fans fully expected to make it onto the pitch because they always had before. They became annoyed when the stewards were more forceful than usual but the aggression that was in evidence was very much a 2 way street.
Take away that aggression and sense of annoyance and you have a far safer scenario i.e the "normal" scenario.
People are not animals. They won't trample on each other just to get on the field.
The charge is usually led by kids anyway.
References to English soccer tragedies are largely irrelevant because
a) the demographics of the fans is completely different
b) the structure of the terracing is completely different i.e no fencing at the front
c) there is no associated risk of violence when large numbers of fans from opposing football or hurling teams come in contact with each other.

Exactly I remember as a young fella the stewards helping us on to the pitch and there was no risk of injury and a calm atmosphere, not much of rush, everyone knew we get on to it so people were careful even us. There was no pushing, this was 1996 after mayo beat kerry. They were extremely helpful also shouting  that everyone will get on no need to rush etc...it can be done for sure.

[Jinxy]

Treat people like human beings and they will respond accordingly.
A couple of guards to keep a sensible eye on proceedings as people enter the pitch would be far more effective from a safety point of view than 30 guards trying to hold back hundreds of fans that have no malice or ill will in their hearts save they want to get onto the pitch after the game just like they do at club games, county finals, intercounty league games etc.
I have been in Parnell Park for numerous Meath-Dublin games at different grades and it would do your heart good to see all the kids on the field at half-time with hurleys and footballs. I'd be outraged if they put a stop to this.
And make no mistake, that'll be the next step if we let insurance companies call the tune.

[Hardy]

Fair enough Jinxy, we disagree on the crowd safety situation where large numbers of people are trying to get onto the pitch. Maybe it can be made acceptably safe, maybe it can't. I wouldn't like to be the one defending it to Joe Duffy (and to myself) if somedoby got killed. Sorry, Sligonian, maybe that's too dramatic - let's say seriously injured.

Apart from safety considerations, I much prefer the pitch presentation anyway. That way, everyone gets an equal chance to enjoy it - including those unable to get onto the pitch and the 30% or so of the attendance who are in the Hogan Stand.

Sligonian, I dpon't know where to start to respond to your stuff. I don't think I'll bother. I don't think I'll find common ground with anyone capable of presenting this as an argument:

I would say we are here in this Planet to enjoy and experience all the highs that can be reached, that to me is priceless and a way I live my life. I respect most rules, but this one is bullshit. We live in a democracy and the majority should be listened to than a couple of middle aged/old farts who try ruin the fun for all of us. None of us are the type to go on yell or hit players ffs.

[Hardy]

I have been in Parnell Park for numerous Meath-Dublin games at different grades and it would do your heart good to see all the kids on the field at half-time with hurleys and footballs. I'd be outraged if they put a stop to this.
And make no mistake, that'll be the next step if we let insurance companies call the tune.

Ah now Jinxy - and you're giving out to me about mentioning Hillsborough.

[INDIANA]

I completely agree that the situation on Sunday was highly dangerous but that situation would not have occurred if we just let people on the pitch like we've always done (notwithstanding the half-hearted attempts to stop them which we've seen in recent years).
One of the stewards on liveline said that the fans were shouting "Plan B" at him long before the official announcement was made.
The fans fully expected to make it onto the pitch because they always had before. They became annoyed when the stewards were more forceful than usual but the aggression that was in evidence was very much a 2 way street.
Take away that aggression and sense of annoyance and you have a far safer scenario i.e the "normal" scenario.
People are not animals. They won't trample on each other just to get on the field.
The charge is usually led by kids anyway.
References to English soccer tragedies are largely irrelevant because
a) the demographics of the fans is completely different
b) the structure of the terracing is completely different i.e no fencing at the front
c) there is no associated risk of violence when large numbers of fans from opposing football or hurling teams come in contact with each other.

Exactly I remember as a young fella the stewards helping us on to the pitch and there was no risk of injury and a calm atmosphere, not much of rush, everyone knew we get on to it so people were careful even us. There was no pushing, this was 1996 after mayo beat kerry. They were extremely helpful also shouting  that everyone will get on no need to rush etc...it can be done for sure.

I agree completely as I said before the jingoism and scaremongering from some quarters is simply to suit vested corporate interests who can stick up nice big banners in front of the winning teams and claim some monetary compensation in return. This has nothing to do with public safety. People have been running onto the pitch for years and all of a sudden the suits want to stop it.  Advertising Money. Thats all its about.
As i said before I'm happy to take my chances- I mean there is more danger in crossing the road everyday and the statistics back that up. There is nothing to stop the GAA organising people filtering onto the pitch in an orderly fashion. But no effort is made in that regard because this is about corporate sponsorship and nothing more.

I laugh at the references to Hillsborough- it was fencing that was responsible for many lives that could have been saved that day. And Croke Park's solution is to put the fencing back up!!! With lateral thinking like that who needs a recession for an encore.

[bottlethrower7]

Tradition, it seems overrides everything and people's perceived right to go where they like and do what they want is more important than the right of others to do what they MUST, never mind their safety.

hmmm, its easy to throw the tradition argument back in someone's face saying we need to move on and stop being backwoods. But where do you draw the line?

to hell with that I say. The day the GAA abandons tradition is the day I abandon the GAA. The organisation is build on tradition. The organisation embraces tradition. So to dismiss tradition is to tend towards double-standards.

[Hardy]

Tradition, it seems overrides everything and people's perceived right to go where they like and do what they want is more important than the right of others to do what they MUST, never mind their safety.

hmmm, its easy to throw the tradition argument back in someone's face saying we need to move on and stop being backwoods. But where do you draw the line?

to hell with that I say. The day the GAA abandons tradition is the day I abandon the GAA. The organisation is build on tradition. The organisation embraces tradition. So to dismiss tradition is to tend towards double-standards.

BT, that's taking spin to a new dimension. What I questioned was the raising of tradition to be sacrosanct. Where did I use the term "backwoods"? Where did I suggest abandoning tradition? Where did I dismiss tradition?

To hell with that, you say. Fair enough - but "that" is something you made up to shoot down, not anything I said.

[Jinxy]

Hardy I'm sure you were there in '99 when Graham was handed the cup in the middle of the pitch.
He might as well have been out on Jones Road there was so little sense of connection with the fans.
And we've been lucky enough to win a few All-Irelands.
I think it would be terrible for example to deny Mayo fans access to the pitch if they won an All-Ireland.

In '96 I remember wandering around the field replaying little snapshots of the game in mind thinking "This is where Brenny Reilly put over the winning point".
I felt like the lads that won it for us weren't that different from me after all and maybe someday I'd be out there wearing the green and gold.
You can't beat the feeling that we're all in it together.
Changing the presentation and after-match traditions will sever one more link between the players and the fans.
I don't think that's the way we should be heading.

[bottlethrower7]

Tradition, it seems overrides everything and people's perceived right to go where they like and do what they want is more important than the right of others to do what they MUST, never mind their safety.

hmmm, its easy to throw the tradition argument back in someone's face saying we need to move on and stop being backwoods. But where do you draw the line?

to hell with that I say. The day the GAA abandons tradition is the day I abandon the GAA. The organisation is build on tradition. The organisation embraces tradition. So to dismiss tradition is to tend towards double-standards.

BT, that's taking spin to a new dimension. What I questioned was the raising of tradition to be sacrosanct. Where did I use the term "backwoods"? Where did I suggest abandoning tradition? Where did I dismiss tradition?

To hell with that, you say. Fair enough - but "that" is something you made up to shoot down, not anything I said.

It was just a general point about how sometimes 'tradition' gets belittled and how sometimes those who do value it can get branded as being in the wrong. Thats all.

[Hardy]

Hardy I'm sure you were there in '99 when Graham was handed the cup in the middle of the pitch. He might as well have been out on Jones Road there was so little sense of connection with the fans. And we've been lucky enough to win a few All-Irelands. I think it would be terrible for example to deny Mayo fans access to the pitch if they won an All-Ireland. In '96 I remember wandering around the field replaying little snapshots of the game in mind thinking "This is where Brenny Reilly put over the winning point". I felt like the lads that won it for us weren't that different from me after all and maybe someday I'd be out there wearing the green and gold. You can't beat the feeling that we're all in it together. Changing the presentation and after-match traditions will sever one more link between the players and the fans. I don't think that's the way we should be heading.

To be honest Jinxy, the reason I'm all for the pitch presentation is because I enjoyed the '99 one most of all. I was in the top of the Cusack. I saw everything that happened, could home in on any player after the whistle, see who was shaking hands with who, see Seán running around, etc. Then, when Graham embarked on his half-hour lap of honour with the cup (another advantage - the whole celebration went on for far longer than usual) I ambled downstairs and positioned myself at the front.

Eventually Graham came along and it was my turn (I was about number 15,672) to be handed the cup, raise it over my head (him still hanging onto the bottom rim of it) and let out a big yahoo. Priceless. And I even have it on video. Never could have happened in the scrum on the pitch.

But that's all down to personal preference and I enjoyed bear-hugging Martin O'Connell and Trevor Giles in 1996 too, though I don't suppose they felt the same about it. But I think in this day and age, the Cooper and Tompkins incidents have to be remembered. The players don't deserve that.

I suppose a sensible compromise can be reached. Presentation on the pitch, so that all can see (I think the point about the 30,000 or so in the Hogan stand who see feck all is valid). Then the crowd allowed on in an orderly fashion, when things have calmed down, half of them are gone home anyway and the players are beyond the reach of eejits. Then we can kick our imaginary points from where Brenny Reilly won the AIF (some clown here recently said that was an accident!). Me, I enjoyed searching for Tyrone bloodstains on the grass and counting discarded bandages in '96.