Irish Generals planned to attack the six counties.

[Roger]

so you and unionists/loyalists like you are actually just in fear of being called names and being disliked !

Are you the Republic's government?  Are you representative of nationalism? 

If you are then you will not convince unionists in general as you are abusive and simply a propaganda machine with nothing to offer unionists. If not then you are simply abusive and a propaganda machine with nothing to offer unionists.  Either way it doesn't matter much and that's the end of the conversation on this.

Off to match now, bye.

[lynchbhoy]

so you and unionists/loyalists like you are actually just in fear of being called names and being disliked !

Are you the Republic's government?  Are you representative of nationalism? 

If you are then you will not convince unionists in general as you are abusive and simply a propaganda machine with nothing to offer unionists. If not then you are simply abusive and a propaganda machine with nothing to offer unionists.  Either way it doesn't matter much and that's the end of the conversation on this.

Off to match now, bye.

which is it ?
you still havent disclosed any real aspects as to why you are 'afraid' ?

voting no to the gfa discloses a lot !

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Roger,

I haven't the time or energy for another round of tit for tat on each small point.  I accept you have issues of mistrust based on past actions which you list back to WW2 but find it odd that you do that on one hand but yet dismiss other issues as something to be consigned to the past because they are devisive.

You ascribe the qualities of plain-talking to unionist politicians in contrast to nationalist counterparts.  I don't understand that and to be honest assigning such qualities or labels to groups is not something I am comfortable with. 

It maybe easier for me looking from outside northern ireland to look at things you list dispassionately and not see the bogey-man behind all actions.  In my experience these things are far more complex than you paint it.

My experience of the republic is that there is a rump of republicanism that hates all things british but the is a far greater group who don't bear them any particular ill-will but do feel a loyalty/duty of care to to nationalists for historical reasons.   I am only trying to articulate that sentiment to you.

In light of my expressed discomfort at assigning qualities to a whole group of people I will thread carefully in my conclusion:  I find, in my limited experience of unionists that many are quick to present their interpretation of other's  motivations as a statement of fact.  When in fact I can see many other (often opposing) motivations.  This can be regarded as "straight talking" in some parts, but can also be seen as plain old arrogance.

Past unionist leaders (notably Mr. Trimble) have painted the picture of one all-pervasive republican/anti-british movitating society in the republic.  That makes it easy to assign ill-intentions to all interactions but it is wrong, very wrong.  If one accepts that, then one can look at previous and current matters in a different light.

/Jim.

[Roger]

Jim, I can see what you are saying. Interesting.  While I have fielded all the questions in this thread to the best of my time, I am still bewildered why you should think that unionists should accept a republican government's purported goodwill simply because they say so.

If you are signing off on the conversation, fair do's.  I'm more gutted tonight about the performance of an eastern Euro country tonight than that of a southern Euro country.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Jim, I can see what you are saying. Interesting.  While I have fielded all the questions in this thread to the best of my time, I am still bewildered why you should think that unionists should accept a republican government's purported goodwill simply because they say so.

If you are signing off on the conversation, fair do's.  I'm more gutted tonight about the performance of an eastern Euro country tonight than that of a southern Euro country.

Goodwill is a strong word and maybe overstates it.   They have now gone from them being liars (forked tongues), untrustworthy to lacking goodwill.

My point is that differing political viewpoints doesn't mean imply malice.

By your reasoning northern nationalists should never trust unionists because unionist political aims are to ensure nationalist aims are never realised??

So everyone has to be suspicious of everyone else?? Forever?

And as for perception/belief/observation that unionist politicians are honest straight talking folk while the irish republic's equivalent are a both of fork tongued liars is just pants, to be honest.

I will always argue against generalisations.

/Jim.

P.S.  Haven over the last week had occasion to see both the FAI XI and IFA XI in action I am glad my interest in international soccer is minimal.   One thing in common north and south is the quality of team.

[Roger]

Goodwill is a strong word and maybe overstates it.   They have now gone from them being liars (forked tongues), untrustworthy to lacking goodwill.

My point is that differing political viewpoints doesn't mean imply malice.

By your reasoning northern nationalists should never trust unionists because unionist political aims are to ensure nationalist aims are never realised??

So everyone has to be suspicious of everyone else?? Forever?

And as for perception/belief/observation that unionist politicians are honest straight talking folk while the irish republic's equivalent are a both of fork tongued liars is just pants, to be honest.

Jim, I was asked why I thought unionists didn't trust the ROI government at the time of the invasion plans.  I don't believe they did trust the ROI government.  I'm not fussed on generalisations either and you can shape my observations into whatever you want and call it pants, but is there some other way you wanted me to answer the questions?  I am certainly not saying I believe nationalist = bad, unionists = good. I have stated that I wouldn't trust the ROI government either then or now but am supportive of NI working with them for mutual benefit. Is that such a bad thing?  Tell me why I should trust the ROI government or tell me what the ROI government have ever done for unionists that makes you think I or any other unionist should trust the ROI government. I have also stated on this thread that I believe that to get away from this suspicion, mistrust, division etc on constitutional lines the NI government needs to be voted on socio-economic lines and let a referendum take care of the constitutional issue.  Otherwise there will continually be win-lose situations based on community background which furthers the division, suspicion etc.

Maybe since you like asking all the questions and then having a pop at my opinion you might like to offer some of your own thoughts on why unionists don't trust the Republic; why they should have trusted Lynch; what makes the ROI government trustworthy at all and based on what evidence; why there is division and mistrust in NI society and who is to blame etc etc.

[Roger]

so you and unionists/loyalists like you are actually just in fear of being called names and being disliked !

Are you the Republic's government?  Are you representative of nationalism? 

If you are then you will not convince unionists in general as you are abusive and simply a propaganda machine with nothing to offer unionists. If not then you are simply abusive and a propaganda machine with nothing to offer unionists.  Either way it doesn't matter much and that's the end of the conversation on this.

Off to match now, bye.

which is it ?
you still havent disclosed any real aspects as to why you are 'afraid' ?

I didn't say I was afraid of anyone or anything.  I simply said you are an unconvincing person to me as a unionist and I imagine this would be the same for other unionists because you are abusive and a propaganda machine.

voting no to the gfa discloses a lot !

It probably gives you more material to make up lies and tell me what I think again whilst bounding your falsehoods all over this board.  Nothing new in that.

[lynchbhoy]

so you and unionists/loyalists like you are actually just in fear of being called names and being disliked !

Are you the Republic's government?  Are you representative of nationalism? 

If you are then you will not convince unionists in general as you are abusive and simply a propaganda machine with nothing to offer unionists. If not then you are simply abusive and a propaganda machine with nothing to offer unionists.  Either way it doesn't matter much and that's the end of the conversation on this.

Off to match now, bye.

which is it ?
you still havent disclosed any real aspects as to why you are 'afraid' ?

I didn't say I was afraid of anyone or anything.  I simply said you are an unconvincing person to me as a unionist and I imagine this would be the same for other unionists because you are abusive and a propaganda machine.

voting no to the gfa discloses a lot !

It probably gives you more material to make up lies and tell me what I think again whilst bounding your falsehoods all over this board.  Nothing new in that.

yep those are your opinions alright. fine.
But at least my opinions have a dose of reality attached.
You still have given Jim or Lar no semblence of a concrete answer as to why you 'fear' all things Irish/Southern Irish gov etc etc.
The elephant in the room here is roaring 'bigotry' as your reasons though!
unionists/loyalists never (never never) want to change from the old apartheid type state,allowing equality and more recently power sharing (need photographs as 'proof' etc) - so its no surprise that they dont want to be shifted further away from their previous position of single power system.
Unfortunately the times are changing and its a one way street.
unionists/loyalists dont see or realise the benefits will be like the gains (financial and other) from their daring to cross the border and work /live in dublin.
If that can be done and they had no problems with it - then there is no issue.
dinosaurs like yourself will be stuck in the past and become extinct while the world  and All Ireland move on.
Its not that I am hell bent on a united Ireland, republicans dont like my views on it and the economy of it, but thats how I see things going. thats business reality. Money and peace dont care for creed, colour or petty squabbles.

[Roger]

yep those are your opinions alright. fine.
But at least my opinions have a dose of reality attached.
You still have given Jim or Lar no semblence of a concrete answer as to why you 'fear' all things Irish/Southern Irish gov etc etc.
The elephant in the room here is roaring 'bigotry' as your reasons though!
unionists/loyalists never (never never) want to change from the old apartheid type state,allowing equality and more recently power sharing (need photographs as 'proof' etc) - so its no surprise that they dont want to be shifted further away from their previous position of single power system.
Unfortunately the times are changing and its a one way street.
unionists/loyalists dont see or realise the benefits will be like the gains (financial and other) from their daring to cross the border and work /live in dublin.
If that can be done and they had no problems with it - then there is no issue.
dinosaurs like yourself will be stuck in the past and become extinct while the world  and All Ireland move on.
Its not that I am hell bent on a united Ireland, republicans dont like my views on it and the economy of it, but thats how I see things going. thats business reality. Money and peace dont care for creed, colour or petty squabbles.

Referring to the bit in bold, I won't be giving any reasons because I don't fear all things Irish/southern Irish gov etc etc.  Telling me what I think and then slagging me off is bloody silly.

[Lar Naparka]

Roger, I think  that the time has come for me to opt out of this thread. I admit that you never resorted to "what aboutery" or going tit for tat throughout our discussion and I'd like to think that I did not either.
I have picked up quite a bit from you along the line that helps me to see things from a Unionist point of view.  The fact that I still can't accept many of your points is irrelevant and so it should be. I think we have had a good discussion along the line and we both set out to discuss and not argue.
At the moment I don't think I have anything relevant to the topic to contribute; many of those who posted from either side appear to think the same. The numbers contributing have dwindled and the thread has gone way off-topic.   
Still, I'll be happy to respond if you should raise any issues with me or ask me to answer any questions. Other than that, I don't intend to post further.