Irish Generals planned to attack the six counties.

[Roger]

The Roger version of history is that the 6 Cos was a grand wee place till one night Jack Lynch said his government wouldnt stand by ( while people were being murdered by the so called forces of law and order an their camp followers) which caused the RUC/B Specials and Orange mobs to start killing Catholics and burning them out of whole streets.

And the sad thing is half a million more of them probably believe that too.

The sad thing is you have no comprehension of how a unionist thinks and when you get the opportunity to discuss rationally you misrepresent them by assumptions and nonsense like that above.  The funny bit is that with people like you around the all Ireland Republic you harp on about remains and will remain nothing more than fantasy island.

[lynchbhoy]

The Roger version of history is that the 6 Cos was a grand wee place till one night Jack Lynch said his government wouldnt stand by ( while people were being murdered by the so called forces of law and order an their camp followers) which caused the RUC/B Specials and Orange mobs to start killing Catholics and burning them out of whole streets.

And the sad thing is half a million more of them probably believe that too.

The sad thing is you have no comprehension of how a unionist thinks and when you get the opportunity to discuss rationally you misrepresent them by assumptions and nonsense like that above.

ah jaysus roger - pot, kettle !

[Roger]

The Roger version of history is that the 6 Cos was a grand wee place till one night Jack Lynch said his government wouldnt stand by ( while people were being murdered by the so called forces of law and order an their camp followers) which caused the RUC/B Specials and Orange mobs to start killing Catholics and burning them out of whole streets.

And the sad thing is half a million more of them probably believe that too.

The sad thing is you have no comprehension of how a unionist thinks and when you get the opportunity to discuss rationally you misrepresent them by assumptions and nonsense like that above.

ah jaysus roger - pot, kettle !

You continuously misrepresent me too.  You even say that as a unionist I have no plans for the future when the union is the only plan on the table.  Your whole plan is "the Brits'll pay for it".  Comical.

[lynchbhoy]

The Roger version of history is that the 6 Cos was a grand wee place till one night Jack Lynch said his government wouldnt stand by ( while people were being murdered by the so called forces of law and order an their camp followers) which caused the RUC/B Specials and Orange mobs to start killing Catholics and burning them out of whole streets.

And the sad thing is half a million more of them probably believe that too.

The sad thing is you have no comprehension of how a unionist thinks and when you get the opportunity to discuss rationally you misrepresent them by assumptions and nonsense like that above.

ah jaysus roger - pot, kettle !

You continuously misrepresent me too.  You even say that as a unionist I have no plans for the future when the union is the only plan on the table.  Your whole plan is "the Brits'll pay for it".  Comical.

to quote you
"Until there is a plan for this new state to assess there's not much point in talking about this. "

you just dont want to plan for th future as you know whats impending !

also there is historical precedent there - with former colonies getting large payouts when handed back ...hong kong being not so long ago.
so when there is precedent, you shouldnt be so quick to ridicule.

British gov officials have also been known to say this is their desire too (to jettison the six counties)...so hardly unfounded speculation !

you misrepresent what the then taoiseach (lynch) said, yet say that you are being misrepresented (though to be fair to you , you are just reiterating what all the other unionists/loyalists have said then and since then).
But it suits unionism/loyalism to imply that there was a big bad wolf at the door about to attack....it was a means to justify their acts at he time I suppose.

[Roger]

to quote you
"Until there is a plan for this new state to assess there's not much point in talking about this. "

you just dont want to plan for th future as you know whats impending !

also there is historical precedent there - with former colonies getting large payouts when handed back ...hong kong being not so long ago.
so when there is precedent, you shouldnt be so quick to ridicule.

British gov officials have also been known to say this is their desire too (to jettison the six counties)...so hardly unfounded speculation !

you misrepresent what the then taoiseach (lynch) said, yet say that you are being misrepresented (though to be fair to you , you are just reiterating what all the other unionists/loyalists have said then and since then).
But it suits unionism/loyalism to imply that there was a big bad wolf at the door about to attack....it was a means to justify their acts at he time I suppose.
[/quote]
The Union is the only planned future.  If a referendum is to be successful for an island state then unionists need to be persuaded yet you want unionists to come up with the plan to end the union.  You are deluded if you think that will happen especially whilst you continue to ridicule them.

[lynchbhoy]

to quote you
"Until there is a plan for this new state to assess there's not much point in talking about this. "

you just dont want to plan for th future as you know whats impending !

also there is historical precedent there - with former colonies getting large payouts when handed back ...hong kong being not so long ago.
so when there is precedent, you shouldnt be so quick to ridicule.

British gov officials have also been known to say this is their desire too (to jettison the six counties)...so hardly unfounded speculation !

you misrepresent what the then taoiseach (lynch) said, yet say that you are being misrepresented (though to be fair to you , you are just reiterating what all the other unionists/loyalists have said then and since then).
But it suits unionism/loyalism to imply that there was a big bad wolf at the door about to attack....it was a means to justify their acts at he time I suppose.

The Union is the only planned future.  If a referendum is to be successful for an island state then unionists need to be persuaded yet you want unionists to come up with the plan to end the union.  You are deluded if you think that will happen especially whilst you continue to ridicule them.
[/quote]
- good chap - you reckon I am deluded !
I said before and will say again, unionists wont have to come up with a plan for reunification, neither will nationalists and the Irish Gov.
The British Gov are known to want to not have to spend so much money on the six counties through policing/military presence and so on.
they would also not only save a fortune not having to do this, but create jobs in england by having all those civil servicy things back on home soil.
Various british chancellors of exchequer and 'home secretaries' have sad as much.

the 'voters' will have little or no choice when the vote comes. The British gov are pretty good at sneaky and dirty tactics.
All they have to do is pull out the civil service jobs, move people back to england on temp contracts, with the promise of jobs and investment if the vote is passed and thats a lot of the naysayers that will have to vote accordingly or live on the breadline.
When it comes to money matters, the unionists/loyalists have never had a problem stepping over their 'principles' ! (we saw this in the Irish Celtic tiger, where prev steadfast unionist/loyalists who had cried never never never - cross the border, to conveniently forget and suddenly they were all down in Dublin taking the punt/euro !)

its on its way. 

[Roger]

Great plan.  Well done you 

[lynchbhoy]

Great plan.  Well done you 

dont thank me
thank the british gov!

[Roger]

Great plan.  Well done you 

dont thank me
thank the british gov!

I'm not thanking you for anything. I'm sarcastically applauding your plan of sitting back and letting the Brits deliver your dreams   

[Rossfan]

The Roger version of history is that the 6 Cos was a grand wee place till one night Jack Lynch said his government wouldnt stand by ( while people were being murdered by the so called forces of law and order an their camp followers) which caused the RUC/B Specials and Orange mobs to start killing Catholics and burning them out of whole streets.

And the sad thing is half a million more of them probably believe that too.

The sad thing is you have no comprehension of how a unionist thinks

Well I've certainly sussed you out anyway. Mind you it wasnt too hard when you came out with all that tripe about the "Troubles" in the North being all Jack Lynch's fault.
Just one final little hint ... the Stormont  Regime's  discriminatory gerrymandering misGovernment from 1922  and it's violent reaction to people holding Civil Right's marches ,invasions of Bogside etc etc.

[Myles Na G.]

the 'voters' will have little or no choice when the vote comes. The British gov are pretty good at sneaky and dirty tactics.
All they have to do is pull out the civil service jobs, move people back to england on temp contracts, with the promise of jobs and investment if the vote is passed and thats a lot of the naysayers that will have to vote accordingly or live on the breadline.
When it comes to money matters, the unionists/loyalists have never had a problem stepping over their 'principles' ! (we saw this in the Irish Celtic tiger, where prev steadfast unionist/loyalists who had cried never never never - cross the border, to conveniently forget and suddenly they were all down in Dublin taking the punt/euro !)

You keep harping on about the British government taking back their civil service jobs. Which ones did you have in mind precisely? The thousands of public sector jobs here are mainly to do with administering local affairs. If the British withdraw, they'll no longer be responsible for collecting our taxes, licensing our cars, organising our agricultural industry, etc. Therefore, these jobs won't be going back to England. They might take back a handful of mandarins who sit at the top of the civil service, but that's about the heap. If that's the best argument you have for bringing about a united Ireland, then we're stuffed.

[Lar Naparka]

My remark about Lynch was not about his oratory or personal presence.  Lynch was no Paisley when it comes to shouting and hollering from platforms but stating that he wouldn't 'stand idly by' was better rabble rousing than Paisley could have managed through shouting and roaring at rallies.  Since the guy could do nothing other than stand idly by he would have been better saying nothing as his comments were enough to send parts of an already paranoid population into a frenzy. Probably the most irresponsible input from an elected politician at the time and clearly out of touch with the Political situation never mind the people his country claimed were citizens.     

Therein, perhaps, is the difference between our points of view.
There is no credible evidence to suggest he ever used that term anywhere at any time.
Probably many Unionists did take that meaning out of what he said and his political opponents down here were to claim he did in later times but there is only one recorded instance of him making any reference to the mobilisation of the Irish army and that was re-shown on RTE last week.
In that recorded interview, he clearly used the term, 'stand by.'
Furthermore, he went on to state explicitly what he was going to do and that did not include invasion in any shape or form.

[lynchbhoy]

the 'voters' will have little or no choice when the vote comes. The British gov are pretty good at sneaky and dirty tactics.
All they have to do is pull out the civil service jobs, move people back to england on temp contracts, with the promise of jobs and investment if the vote is passed and thats a lot of the naysayers that will have to vote accordingly or live on the breadline.
When it comes to money matters, the unionists/loyalists have never had a problem stepping over their 'principles' ! (we saw this in the Irish Celtic tiger, where prev steadfast unionist/loyalists who had cried never never never - cross the border, to conveniently forget and suddenly they were all down in Dublin taking the punt/euro !)

You keep harping on about the British government taking back their civil service jobs. Which ones did you have in mind precisely? The thousands of public sector jobs here are mainly to do with administering local affairs. If the British withdraw, they'll no longer be responsible for collecting our taxes, licensing our cars, organising our agricultural industry, etc. Therefore, these jobs won't be going back to England. They might take back a handful of mandarins who sit at the top of the civil service, but that's about the heap. If that's the best argument you have for bringing about a united Ireland, then we're stuffed.

there are a lot of non-local civil service 'call centre' type instances based in the
north of Ireland from what I saw listed in the not too distant past.
There are plenty of jobs that can be moved.
Also there are plenty of 'local' civil service jobs that can be migrated over to
England also - and I would expect that a proportion of these will also go when the
British gov starts to play 'hardball'.

Basic economics and business principles really. If you question that then fine.
Thats how the money makers and shakers do business. The 'protection' of the statelet
will no longer apply at that stage. Prepare for a rough time from the British gov.
It will be far more accomodating re-instated back with the Irish Gov.
I hope to heck those fools can broker a decent deal first though or we are all fecked!

yes roger - it would be slightly ironic to a lot of people who end up getting their
united Ireland delivered by the british Gv in the end ....but after all, who else could
ever deliver it.

[lynchbhoy]

My remark about Lynch was not about his oratory or personal presence.  Lynch was no Paisley when it comes to shouting and hollering from platforms but stating that he wouldn't 'stand idly by' was better rabble rousing than Paisley could have managed through shouting and roaring at rallies.  Since the guy could do nothing other than stand idly by he would have been better saying nothing as his comments were enough to send parts of an already paranoid population into a frenzy. Probably the most irresponsible input from an elected politician at the time and clearly out of touch with the Political situation never mind the people his country claimed were citizens.     

Therein, perhaps, is the difference between our points of view.
There is no credible evidence to suggest he ever used that term anywhere at any time.
Probably many Unionists did take that meaning out of what he said and his political opponents down here were to claim he did in later times but there is only one recorded instance of him making any reference to the mobilisation of the Irish army and that was re-shown on RTE last week.
In that recorded interview, he clearly used the term, 'stand by.'
Furthermore, he went on to state explicitly what he was going to do and that did not include invasion in any shape or form.

welcome to the world of unionist/loyalist-speak

deliberate misunderstanding or forked tongues doesnt even come close !

[Roger]

On a complete tangent, in response to Lar_Naparka it's actually an interesting point by Lynchboy on forked tongues (albeit used in silly manner to pursue his own agenda). 

I'm not sure what others think but for me I observe that Northern Irish unionists are generally used to straight talking, no flannel and 'call a spade a spade' type language.  Maybe Paisley was scarey to nationalists but to unionists he might just well have been seen to have been speaking his mind to be agreed with or disagreed with.  I've certainly heard that before by many who agreed and also disagreed with him.  However, for many unionists there is a deep mistrust of southern Irish Politicians and a view point that they seem to be able to work within a level of ambiguity that is just misunderstood and considered to be forked tongues whilst still having a republican agenda to take over NI.  I don't know if this is the case for the way Lynch's comments were taken, I'd have to have a closer look at the sequence of events and what exactly was said.  One thing for certain was that there was and still is a deep mistrust of the Republic's intentions and imo with a fair degree of merit.  Whether that is right or wrong, either now or then is open for debate and criticism but may have been a factor.  One thing for certain is that there was definitely a fear of the Republic and for the future of NI at the time which contributed massively to the mayhem and that is what was evident and what Lynch stoked up by his comments however much we analyse them with benefit from hindsight in 2009.