Hunger strike commemoration at a GAA ground

[Maguire01]

I have spoken in the past about the hypocrisy here. The people with, if not loyalist paramilitaries themselves, then with very strong links, currently serving as Directors at Irish League football clubs. FFS all hell broke loose not so long ago at a post Irish Cup Final Official Club dinner when rival loyalists fell out, that shows how closely the links are.

But what Evil Genius and Miss Walker fail to understand is the impossibility (that is if they value their lives, limbs property etc) of a few GAA club men saying no to paramilitary linked organisations if they come calling as it were at Club grounds.

I mean the PSNI ran a mile in the opposite direction last weekend when they chanced upon a real IRA checkpoint in Meigh. Now if the Police are afraid to tackle overt armed paramilitary displays, what chance has the ordinary GAA Club members?

So Tony agrees as well. No one in such a GAA club is going to stand up to oppose an event like this happening in their club, for fear of their own safety. I have to assume you are referring to SF as the 'paramilitary linked' organisation in this case(?)

As such, it's with total disregard for the Association and its members that SF and/or their committees go near GAA grounds for such events and place GAA clubs and members in this situation.

[Evil Genius]

Evil Genius I would appreciate your comments on the rival loyalist paramilitary fallout at the post Irish Cup Final dinner hosted by the winning club in Belfast a while back? How on earth did these paramilitaries get an official invite?

I don't know what you are talking about, nor following past precedent, am I prepared to accept your version of alleged events at face value, especially when you are being totally vague.
So how about you present me with an objective, substantiated account of what you allege to have occurred, then I'll compose a reply.

[Maguire01]

the GAA could come out and ban events being held in their grounds by third party groups - but this would and could lead to the likes fo croke park being off limits to soccer/rugby/u2 when they all come cap in hand looking for the use of the stadium again...

Maybe they could just ban political events then?

[Evil Genius]

Evil Genius I would appreciate your comments on the rival loyalist paramilitary fallout at the post Irish Cup Final dinner hosted by the winning club in Belfast a while back? How on earth did these paramilitaries get an official invite?

You are batting them away rightly EG

What about the above question??

See my reply #446

[Maguire01]

It seems to me all Unioniost just write off the Hunger Strikers as terrorists whereas a lot of very anti-IRA nationalists have sympathy for them and what they did.

No doubt.

But As Gail Walker pointed out:  "Good relations cut both ways. It isn't just up to unionists to be nice to nationalists. It works the other way round too"

insofar as her pointless piece goes, lets see the long awaited unionist/loyalist action towards 'being nice' - lets see the actions getting rid of oo marches, sectarianism in ni soccer , psni intransigence and inequality etc
then we will have something 'equal'
so far there has been 'no moves' by unionists to eradicate this other than name changes and 'empty pr campaigns' stating that there are changes afoot...but in reality none forthcoming.

why should nationalists go out on a limb, after all its the unionists place to lead now by apology and actions after the apartheid regime by unionist/loyalists.

Why should the GAA wait on others to jump first? Can we not be the 'bigger man'? Can we not be progressive for the sake of our own Association, rather than looking to see what 'the other side' are doing?

Let the OO or the IFA live in the past if that's what they want. Why would we wait for them to get their house in order before we consider our own affairs?

It doesn't have to be about making changes to satisfy McCausland and his type. We shouldn't be waiting on the OO or the IFA to make any moves. GAA people loathe the ignorant comparisons with the OO (or the IFA), so why wait to mirror their progress (or lack thereof)?

[Evil Genius]

It seems to me all Unioniost just write off the Hunger Strikers as terrorists whereas a lot of very anti-IRA nationalists have sympathy for them and what they did.

No doubt.

But As Gail Walker pointed out:  "Good relations cut both ways. It isn't just up to unionists to be nice to nationalists. It works the other way round too"

insofar as her pointless piece goes, lets see the long awaited unionist/loyalist action towards 'being nice' - lets see the actions getting rid of oo marches, sectarianism in ni soccer , psni intransigence and inequality etc
then we will have something 'equal'
so far there has been 'no moves' by unionists to eradicate this other than name changes and 'empty pr campaigns' stating that there are changes afoot...but in reality none forthcoming.

why should nationalists go out on a limb, after all its the unionists place to lead now by apology and actions after the apartheid regime by unionist/loyalists.

You have your views on politics, I have mine. But whether we agree or disagree, the whole point of this thread is whether GAC's should be getting involved in politics, in the manner seen at Galbally Pearses GAC.

It is my firm opinion that it is incumbent upon all sports, including eg soccer, to avoid involving themselves in partisan politics wherever possible. As such, the overwhelming majority of sports do so successfully, even in the most trying of circumstances.

Imo, the GAA stands out as an exception* however, as evidenced by events such as Galbally. Shame on them. 

* - Uniquely so?

[Evil Genius]

I see no issue whatsoever with a Hunger Strike commemoration, in fact it's something that should be remembered, however the fact that it was held in a GAA ground is regrettable and very short sighted indeed by the Sinn Fein leadership.

On the contrary, imo the SF leadership is being rather far-sighted (or at least "cute"), in pursuing a strategy of entryism into the GAA in NI.
It is the GAA (Central Council) which is being "short-sighted", if not blind, by failing to take effective action to bolster those ordinary members who may feel uneasy at seeing what should be primarily a sporting organisation being hijacked for nefarious political ends by partisan political/paramilitary figures.
Unless, of course, the leadership of the GAA does not actually object to events such as those at Galbally (or a previous similar event at Kevin Lynch's new pitch laying ceremony, when Nicky Brennan happily shared a platform with eg Martin McGuinness, whilst another "colour party" paraded along the pitch in front of him).

I also feel that most Unionists don't understand why so many Nationalists/Republicans feel the need to commemorate these men and this period in our recent history. I would love to know if anyone has ever actually tried to explain to the wider Unionist community why we feel these events are so important.

I dare say you are right that Unionists don't fully understand Republican attitudes towards eg the Hunger Strikes.
Indeed I would go further by agreeing that it would benefit us greatly to understand more.
But do you honestly believe that a carefully orchestrated display of pure propaganda, such as that mounted by SF etc at Galbally, is ever going to be taken seriously for its objectivity and "educational" value, by any but the most gullible of Unionists? Get real! 

Galbally was nothing to do with SF's "mission to explain" the Hunger Strikes etc to a Unionist audience, and everything to do with re-asserting their own Republican credentials to its (Ourselves Alone) own constituency, in the face of a potential leeching of support to the Dissidents. That is, SF can no longer be seen to be brandishing real weapons wearing its IRA beret or balaclava, so they march up and down with plastic weapons and term the "volunteers" in the berets and balaclavas "Historical re-enactors"...
And the fact that they can drag the GAA into their politicking is merely "two for the price of one", since everyone knows that the GAA's "constituency" is a purely* Nationalist one, too.


* - At least since Darren Graham was (ahem) "disappeared"...

"GET REAL"??
Did I suggest that the events of Galbally were supposed to be of educational value to Unionists?....or did you just imagine that part?

Well - any chance of an answer............you Evil Genius you.

The organisers of Galbally have attempted to deny that the commemorations were "political", on the basis that they were "historical" and "cultural" etc.
As such, they justify their (so-called) "historical re-enactments" as being educational for those attending, especially those too young to remember the actual events.
Are we to take it that this educational function was only meant for Republicans/Nationalists i.e. not for the benefit of any Unionist who may have been passing?
After all, if we are to believe the likes of Lynchbhoy, there is no shortage of people from the Unionist community in NI who are also keen Gaelic footballers and hurlers etc.
Or is it that there are simply none whatever in Galbally Pearses GAC?

[Evil Genius]

EG - I'll add the bit that you must have missed by accident that in the same paragraph on McFarlane that you included. It goes as follows:

The IRA killed 91 Protestant civilians in similar attacks in 1974-76, in reprisal for loyalist attacks on Catholics, which killed 250 civilians in the same period

That crucial last piece of information gives a clue to why McFarlane might have committed such an act. The Catholic/Nationalist community were being picked off at random by loyalist paramilitaries, fuelled up on the rhetoric of Paisley and his ilk (good, law abiding Christians). The police, the army, the state were doing nothing. They were second class citizens at best. I've no time for the provos or SF and never had but if I'd lived there at that time in that situation I ask myself - what would I have done? Good and all as I think I am I cannot say for sure what I'd have done and I doubt very many honest people can either.

Ah, the classic "Themmuns made me do it" defence...

[magpie seanie]

EG - I'll add the bit that you must have missed by accident that in the same paragraph on McFarlane that you included. It goes as follows:

The IRA killed 91 Protestant civilians in similar attacks in 1974-76, in reprisal for loyalist attacks on Catholics, which killed 250 civilians in the same period

That crucial last piece of information gives a clue to why McFarlane might have committed such an act. The Catholic/Nationalist community were being picked off at random by loyalist paramilitaries, fuelled up on the rhetoric of Paisley and his ilk (good, law abiding Christians). The police, the army, the state were doing nothing. They were second class citizens at best. I've no time for the provos or SF and never had but if I'd lived there at that time in that situation I ask myself - what would I have done? Good and all as I think I am I cannot say for sure what I'd have done and I doubt very many honest people can either.

Ah, the classic "Themmuns made me do it" defence...

I'm not defending anyone. You asked me earlier had anyone explained to Unionists why many moderate nationalists do not write the hunger strikers off as terrorists and I've attempted to do so. Your throwaway reply to me says a lot about your willingness to listen to uncomfortable truths.

[Evil Genius]

It seems to me all Unioniost just write off the Hunger Strikers as terrorists whereas a lot of very anti-IRA nationalists have sympathy for them and what they did.

No doubt.

But As Gail Walker pointed out:  "Good relations cut both ways. It isn't just up to unionists to be nice to nationalists. It works the other way round too"

insofar as her pointless piece goes, lets see the long awaited unionist/loyalist action towards 'being nice' - lets see the actions getting rid of oo marches, sectarianism in ni soccer , psni intransigence and inequality etc
then we will have something 'equal'
so far there has been 'no moves' by unionists to eradicate this other than name changes and 'empty pr campaigns' stating that there are changes afoot...but in reality none forthcoming.

why should nationalists go out on a limb, after all its the unionists place to lead now by apology and actions after the apartheid regime by unionist/loyalists.

Why should the GAA wait on others to jump first? Can we not be the 'bigger man'? Can we not be progressive for the sake of our own Association, rather than looking to see what 'the other side' are doing?

Let the OO or the IFA live in the past if that's what they want. Why would we wait for them to get their house in order before we consider our own affairs?

It doesn't have to be about making changes to satisfy McCausland and his type. We shouldn't be waiting on the OO or the IFA to make any moves. GAA people loathe the ignorant comparisons with the OO (or the IFA), so why wait to mirror their progress (or lack thereof)?

Maguire, whilst I sympathise and admire generally with your stance, as a soccer fan I object to your equating the OO and the IFA.

The OO is an unrepentantly sectarian organisation, with a clear political agenda. And whilst I know from experience that the average member is invariably decent enough etc, I have no time for his organisation.

Whereas the IFA is a sporting body, with no religious or political agenda whatever. Of course, this being NI, there are members and officials whose politics will not find favour in the wider community in NI. Worse, the actions of some of those members and officials may be informed by their politics etc, in the past, at least.

Nonetheless, I can unequivocally state that not only does the IFA now have no ulterior official (or unofficial) agenda  whatever, but it is largely effective in deterring its members etc from furthering any personal agenda via soccer in NI, which they may have.

Indeed, not only have they been notably successful in deterring them, but they are increasingly publicly and objectively recognised for their success in rejecting and countering such unwelcome behaviour. Of course, it is still a work in progress, indeed one which may never be totally completed (at least until genuine "normality" comes to NI).

Nonetheless, there is nothing in the activities of the IFA - not even in Fearon's widest imagination - to compare with the sort of public display we regularly witness occurring on GAA premises, such as that seen at Galbally.

[Evil Genius]

EG - I'll add the bit that you must have missed by accident that in the same paragraph on McFarlane that you included. It goes as follows:

The IRA killed 91 Protestant civilians in similar attacks in 1974-76, in reprisal for loyalist attacks on Catholics, which killed 250 civilians in the same period

That crucial last piece of information gives a clue to why McFarlane might have committed such an act. The Catholic/Nationalist community were being picked off at random by loyalist paramilitaries, fuelled up on the rhetoric of Paisley and his ilk (good, law abiding Christians). The police, the army, the state were doing nothing. They were second class citizens at best. I've no time for the provos or SF and never had but if I'd lived there at that time in that situation I ask myself - what would I have done? Good and all as I think I am I cannot say for sure what I'd have done and I doubt very many honest people can either.

Ah, the classic "Themmuns made me do it" defence...

I'm not defending anyone. You asked me earlier had anyone explained to Unionists why many moderate nationalists do not write the hunger strikers off as terrorists and I've attempted to do so. Your throwaway reply to me says a lot about your willingness to listen to uncomfortable truths.

It was not a "throwaway" reply, rather it was shorthand.

But if you really do need it spelling out, I am well aware that self-styled "Loyalists" committed many foul atrocities during The Troubles, including naked sectarian assassinations etc. I have never denied, defended or condoned that in any way.

Nor would I deny that many in the Republican community were driven to take up arms as a response to such atrocities. But that does not make such a response right or justified imo, if only because many more  people in that community abjured such a response.

And these latter are the people, invariably overlooked and forgotten, whom I admire most and who I believe deserve all our support and appreciation.

Which, taking us back on-topic to Galbally, is where I would see the Hunger Strike commemorations. Of course those activists who were involved will want to commemorate and celebrate those whom they revere as heroes. But not everyone in the community from which the activists come would regard the Hunger Strikers and their colleagues (eg McFarlane) similarly.

Yet as Fearon has so graphically testified, were any such dissenters to voice their objections, they could expect severe, even brutal repercussions. Which is where it should be incumbent (imo) on the County Board and Central Council to stand up and make it clear that partisan political/paramilitary figures are not welcome when they seek to hijack the GAA for their own ends.

Unless, of course, those political/paramilitary figures are actually less unwelcome than the GAA might like to admit... 

[ardmhachaabu]

Bigots will always find a reason to criticise the GAA

If prominent Unionist politicians can follow their respective counties throughout the championship, the bigots should take example from them and give it a go, or not. 

Incidentally, if it was a SF organised event as it seems to have been then it shouldn't have been held on GAA property.  That also applies to other political parties who would choose to use the GAA in this way, though I can't think of any offhand.

[Evil Genius]

Bigots will always find a reason to criticise the GAA

True, but that does not exonerate the GAA from valid criticism from non-bigoted quarters.

If prominent Unionist politicians can follow their respective counties throughout the championship, the bigots should take example from them and give it a go, or not. 

But if they (bigots) took their cue from other, more reasonable, politicians etc, then they wouldn't be bigots in the first place.

Incidentally, if it was a SF organised event as it seems to have been then it shouldn't have been held on GAA property. 

Indeed.

Still, I'm glad none of the various soccer or other sporting clubs I've been involved with down the years have never allowed themselves to be caught up in anything remotely like the events at Galbally, otherwise I'd feel compelled not to have anything to do with them ever again.

[oakleafgael]

The people with, if not loyalist paramilitaries themselves, then with very strong links, currently serving as Directors at Irish League football clubs. FFS all hell broke loose not so long ago at a post Irish Cup Final Official Club dinner when rival loyalists fell out, that shows how closely the links are.

"Links" my hole!
What "links" are there between IL clubs and paramilitaries? When have paramilitaries been known to use IL premises for paramilitary-style, or even political, purposes? When has a soccer club/stadium/competition etc in NI ever been named after a convicted "Loyalist" [sic] paramilitary, as has happened any number of times for Republican paramilitaries in GAA?
If you are claiming that some former (or even present) members of paramilitary organisations in NI are also known to be keen, even active fans of certain soccer clubs, then that is hardly surprising - Martin McGuinness/Derry City FC springs to mind, for one.
May we assume that no-one involved in the running of a GAC has ever also been "associated with" any Republican paramilitary organisation?
The fact is, events such as those at Galbally take such coincidences to a whole new level entirely, i.e from it just so happening that members of GAC's or soccer clubs may also be high profile individuals in their other life, to the club  actively and publicly identifying itself with an overtly political/paramilitary event, without either the club officials or County or Central authorities, seeming to be in the least bit concerned.

As for people getting drunk and fighting over politics at a Dinner - I suppose that is the first and only time such a thing ever happened in NI 

But what Evil Genius and Miss Walker fail to understand is the impossibility (that is if they value their lives, limbs property etc) of a few GAA club men saying no to paramilitary linked organisations if they come calling as it were at Club grounds.

Even if "a few club men" at Galbally Pearses GAC were of a mind to object (something which I suspect may be unlikely?), such matter are not just down to them. For both the County Board and Central Council have a role to play in supporting their club members, as well as maintaining the sport's public image.
From what we have seen so far, I doubt very much whether either will mete out even the lightest slap on the wrist to disassociate themselves, their organisation or their sport, from what went on at Galbally (at least if precedent is anything to go by).
Which prompts the question, are they completely unable to do so, or merely unwilling? 

I mean the PSNI ran a mile in the opposite direction last weekend when they chanced upon a real IRA checkpoint in Meigh. Now if the Police are afraid to tackle overt armed paramilitary displays, what chance has the ordinary GAA Club members?

Are you saying that the weapons on display in the "re-enactment" at Galbally were real, like the four sub-machine guns and the rocket launcher being brandished at Meigh, when the two community policemen happened to chance upon them the other evening?

If nothing else, it remains open to the Central council of the GAA to issue a Statement condemning the use of GAA premises for the staging of overtly political/paramilitary displays, such as we saw at Galbally, in the same way as Sir Hugh Orde unequivocally condemned the activities of the Real IRA in Meigh, during today's Press Conference.

But I won't be holding my breath to hear something similar about Galbally from Croke Park, if you don't mind...

EG,

Portadown and the Jameson family are very closely linked. Its bar has been a been a loyalist paramilitary drinking den for a long time.

[Maguire01]

It seems to me all Unioniost just write off the Hunger Strikers as terrorists whereas a lot of very anti-IRA nationalists have sympathy for them and what they did.

No doubt.

But As Gail Walker pointed out:  "Good relations cut both ways. It isn't just up to unionists to be nice to nationalists. It works the other way round too"

insofar as her pointless piece goes, lets see the long awaited unionist/loyalist action towards 'being nice' - lets see the actions getting rid of oo marches, sectarianism in ni soccer , psni intransigence and inequality etc
then we will have something 'equal'
so far there has been 'no moves' by unionists to eradicate this other than name changes and 'empty pr campaigns' stating that there are changes afoot...but in reality none forthcoming.

why should nationalists go out on a limb, after all its the unionists place to lead now by apology and actions after the apartheid regime by unionist/loyalists.

Why should the GAA wait on others to jump first? Can we not be the 'bigger man'? Can we not be progressive for the sake of our own Association, rather than looking to see what 'the other side' are doing?

Let the OO or the IFA live in the past if that's what they want. Why would we wait for them to get their house in order before we consider our own affairs?

It doesn't have to be about making changes to satisfy McCausland and his type. We shouldn't be waiting on the OO or the IFA to make any moves. GAA people loathe the ignorant comparisons with the OO (or the IFA), so why wait to mirror their progress (or lack thereof)?

Maguire, whilst I sympathise and admire generally with your stance, as a soccer fan I object to your equating the OO and the IFA.

The OO is an unrepentantly sectarian organisation, with a clear political agenda. And whilst I know from experience that the average member is invariably decent enough etc, I have no time for his organisation.

Whereas the IFA is a sporting body, with no religious or political agenda whatever. Of course, this being NI, there are members and officials whose politics will not find favour in the wider community in NI. Worse, the actions of some of those members and officials may be informed by their politics etc, in the past, at least.

Nonetheless, I can unequivocally state that not only does the IFA now have no ulterior official (or unofficial) agenda  whatever, but it is largely effective in deterring its members etc from furthering any personal agenda via soccer in NI, which they may have.

Indeed, not only have they been notably successful in deterring them, but they are increasingly publicly and objectively recognised for their success in rejecting and countering such unwelcome behaviour. Of course, it is still a work in progress, indeed one which may never be totally completed (at least until genuine "normality" comes to NI).

Nonetheless, there is nothing in the activities of the IFA - not even in Fearon's widest imagination - to compare with the sort of public display we regularly witness occurring on GAA premises, such as that seen at Galbally.

I mentioned the OO and the IFA together in response to a previous poster. And because some people here appear to have double standards in terms of what is acceptable for the GAA and the IFA.

It was also relevant in terms of the wider image of the organisations and how many on here see the GAA as 'ours' and the IFA as 'yours'. Regardless of what the IFA does or doesn't do, or what progress it has made, it still has an image problem with a large number of people, and in that respect, there is a comparison to the GAA.

But my main point was not to try and make comparisons with what the IFA may or may not be doing. My point is that the GAA should be progressive, as appropriate, for the sake of the Association itself and not to satisfy DUP dinosaurs; nor should we be looking over our shoulder to see if other organisation 'evolve' before we decide to.