Páraic Duffy speaks out!

[Ping Pong Santa]

I am quite surprised by this thread, I would have thought it was generally common practice for managers to get paid, club and county?

Also, does anyone else think that some managers are being undeservedly exonerated here because they are managing their home counties and that they may well be getting or were getting paid as well?

[muppet]

There are managers that are being paid but I suspect the majority are not.

There are players being paid but I am certain the vast majority are not.

A number of posters stated that they though this was all common knowledge and a 'witch hunt' would be a waste of time. I disagree completely.

I accept there are strong traditional, cultural and romantic arguments for amateurism but I am just going to stick to the financial. The reality is that the Gaa could never financially support 'pay for play' therefore logically from a financial point of view it must remain an amateur game.

Allowing certain players and some managers to be paid seriously undermines that amateurism. When I read a poster stating that 30% of his club's budget goes on the manager then his club has a serious problem. I suspect that there are a lot of clubs and possibly counties who hand over substantial parts of their budgets to individuals. Paying for a physio is one thing, as medical treatment comes at a price, particularly in Ireland but even still it would hardly be 30% of a clubs annual budget would it?

When you have various exceptions being well rewarded, that people are afraid to mention, then you will gets others wanting to join them. The GPA is a logical development and pointing all fingers of blame in their direction is IMHO absurd, until the association practices the amateurism that it preaches. Remove the hypocrisy and you remove their argument.

[Logan]

I see now apparently 9 officials from the counties have come out and said they are not paying managers.


Well look them straight in the eye and ask

- The Cavan County Board is Tommy Carr getting paid?
- the Monaghan County Board chairman is McElkennon getting any money

... on their behalf?

If they deny that I'd call them liars

[Zulu]

There are managers that are being paid but I suspect the majority are not.

I would say the majority (or close to it) are getting paid, only a very small minority are getting paid big money IMO and certainly I've never heard of big cash being bandied about in any of the counties I've lived in at club level. IMO this is a bit like prohabition in the States, well meaning and you can see where people are coming from but at the end of the day people want alcohol and likewise the players want good coaches. If you try to clamp down on it, you'll only drive it further underground and/or the best coaches out of the GAA and into rugby and soccer where they'll get paid without having to look over their shoulder all the time.

I find it strange that lads will come on here and complain about fitness levels, technique of players or the quality of training their county is doing compared to other counties, yet the same lads want to hunt out all the best coaches from the GAA.

Like I said that club that is spending 30% on coaches should train its own coaches and they wouldn't have to pay someone to come in from outside. How many of the lads complaining about coaches getting paid coach teams themselves or are training themselves up to one day take over their senior team?

[stephenite]

Good man Zulu - but the point still remains.

I feel and I've already stated (and I may be incorrect) that the players who see the manager getting paid are going to start demanding the same themselves eventually. It's interesting that's no one commented on the GPA's (albeit leaked) statement that pay for play was the end goal.

I agree with Muppet, it's not sustainable as the present model stands - but the model could change fast enough if someone else was willing to pay

[rrhf]

I feel and I've already stated (and I may be incorrect) that the players who see the manager getting paid are going to start demanding the same themselves eventually. It's interesting that's no one commented on the GPA's (albeit leaked) statement that pay for play was the end goal.
stands to sense.  Your natural progression to this is to pay everyone, mine would be to try to draw the line now, and aspire to return to real amateur staus in terms of team managers and players.  - Whilst I dont want to see specialist coaches paid I  can see some peoples arguements for the improvements that they can bring to a club or county being a worthwhile investment.  Managers - no way. 

[stephenite]

I feel and I've already stated (and I may be incorrect) that the players who see the manager getting paid are going to start demanding the same themselves eventually. It's interesting that's no one commented on the GPA's (albeit leaked) statement that pay for play was the end goal.
stands to sense.  Your natural progression to this is to pay everyone, mine would be to try to draw the line now, and aspire to return to real amateur staus in terms of team managers and players.  - Whilst I dont want to see specialist coaches paid I  can see some peoples arguements for the improvements that they can bring to a club or county being a worthwhile investment.  Managers - no way. 

I think that's a fantastic goal to aspire to - but I would respectfully offer my opinion that it's very unrealistic. I'm not trying to make a case for pay for play, I disagree with it wholeheartedly, but I do feel it's inevitable in some shape or form.

[Zulu]

How many of the lads complaining about coaches getting paid coach teams themselves or are training themselves up to one day take over their senior team?

Myself for one.

That's great to hear and well done to you but the fact remains that most clubs find it difficult to get quality coaches that are willing to give up their evenings and weekends for football. So they have to pay for the expertise, IMO it (a coach) is a very important role and the difference between a good coach and a bad one is night and day. There is undoubtedly too much money being given to some coaches but IMO some coaches do bring enough to the table to warrant some payment above expenses. I see little evidence that this is leading to players wanting cash but as stephenite says, it is a possibility but that is something we will have to deal with because there is no going back on coaching payments.

[Canalman]

Alot of doublespeak being touted around. Anyway, while a County Board might be right in saying it doesn't pay its managers...... the "Supporter's Club" probably is.
Personally, have no problem in lads getting re imbursed for training teams, given the huge amount of time and effort involved. The days of the former inter County "star" getting E100/E150  per session (while fielding mobile phone calls / running lads till they puke approach) are gone. A bit of nous now needed and the good coaches/ trainers will be well paid because of their ability.

Very good point already made about a club's inability to get one of their own to voluntarily run a team ( and take the flak) leaving the void to be filled by paid Managers/Coaches.

[brokencrossbar1]

I have no issue with managers being paid so long as it is transparent.  I coach teams at Junior A and underage level at the minute and last year at senior level.  It takes up a serious amount of time and expense which I could do without incurring.  I have no problem doing it and have never asked, I have been offered and have been told "sure we'll look after ye at the end of the year".  I can take it or leave it.  What annoys me however, is what is seen as the "mercenary" manager abusing the generosity(stupidity) of club benefactors.  We had a situation where before I became involved in coaching this year an outside man had been appointed to coach tghe Junior B hurling team.  They would be the equivalent of Kilkenny footballers.  He wanted to take them from late february twice a week despite the fact that the hurling season only began 3 weeks ago!  When I joined up I was told this and I nearly fell over.  I told the chairman that I would do the physical traing for the hurlers and then one of the other hurlering men could coach them skills.  He said that would be ideal except that he had commited to the man.  We are a very small club with only about 150 members and funds would not be huge.  As it turned out the coach "fell out" with us and threw the head up.  I now coach them twice a week with a hurling coach who is one of the older players.  Not only have we got them playing well in the hurling but we have been able to enter a seconf football team with them as the extra players.

It is very rare that clubs and counties build lasting success on the back of an outside management.  Who were the last team hurling or football to win an AI(or even a provincial) with an outside manager?  I am sure there are some but they are the exception rather than the rule.

[muppet]

Alot of doublespeak being touted around. Anyway, while a County Board might be right in saying it doesn't pay its managers...... the "Supporter's Club" probably is.
Personally, have no problem in lads getting re imbursed for training teams, given the huge amount of time and effort involved. The days of the former inter County "star" getting E100/E150  per session (while fielding mobile phone calls / running lads till they puke approach) are gone. A bit of nous now needed and the good coaches/ trainers will be well paid because of their ability.

Very good point already made about a club's inability to get one of their own to voluntarily run a team ( and take the flak) leaving the void to be filled by paid Managers/Coaches.

The argument for paying managers seems to be that you will not have the required standard if you don't pay them.

Imagine you start with an association with no paid managers. You have a level playing field and an amateur game.

Then you get to where we are now, some managers are paid and some aren't. Those clubs/counties paying do so for various reasons but success and ambition are undeniably a big part of it. We have a two tier system whereby clubs/counties that don't pay managers can find it difficult to recruit experienced/successful managers. This could lead to them being less successful than those clubs/counties that do pay and it is that perception that fuels the problem.

That will inevitably lead to an association where all managers are paid. Then you will have a level playing field again except all managers will be paid. Ambitious clubs with money will seek naturally to take advantage and will look at other ways to use their money to gain success. This could become a self-sustaining road to pay for play. We have seen this before in Rugby Union.

If a team can field 15 unpaid players it can find an unpaid manager. The efforts of the former is worth no less than that of the latter.

Páraic Duffy is right to speak out about it.

[magpie seanie]

Muppet - he is probably right to speak about but not to term it the biggest problem facing the GAA.

[muppet]

Muppet - he is probably right to speak about but not to term it the biggest problem facing the GAA.

Fair point, but I would have to admit I don't know the full extent of the problem.

[Logan]

I think there is a number of points here.

The Philosophy
I have no problem paying an expert in their field for their knowledge. If a coach can come in and do something I can't or can train a team very well and bring in something I or my club members can't do then I'll pay them.
Why? Because I believe in paying good people for good work.
Why should a physio and doctor get paid on the day of a match or to come to training but a trainer can't?

If I asked a plumber to come round to the house I woulnd't expect it done for nothing.

Quality vs Chancers
NOW ... the problem arises when you get chancers in trying to do something and messing it up - they are the mercenary managers

As for the question as to whether its a major problem - it isn't. If someone wants to pay for something - let them.

Trainers vs Managers
Trainers generally do more work and these guys range from the expert and skilled to a Stevie Wonder idiot who hardly knows what a ball is.
Personally I'd paid a trainer but not a Manager unless it was a legendary man who could make a massive difference.

A problem?
1. It's not a problem - what is it doing?
2. It's impossible to prove or disprove - Ireland is the home of 'cash in hand'
3. You can't stop it - it's called capitalism


A bigger problem facing the GAA is stoping our kids going to play Rugby and Soccer
Now there's something to be concerned with.

[muppet]

I think there is a number of points here.

The Philosophy
I have no problem paying an expert in their field for their knowledge. If a coach can come in and do something I can't or can train a team very well and bring in something I or my club members can't do then I'll pay them.
Why? Because I believe in paying good people for good work.
Why should a physio and doctor get paid on the day of a match or to come to training but a trainer can't?

If I asked a plumber to come round to the house I wouldn't expect it done for nothing.

There are two sides to this. Either you believe you can discriminate against players and managers of lower teams in favour of a senior manager or you don't. I don't.

Why should you only pay the plumber that goes to the house of the 1st team but expect the plumbers that go to the junior team, minor team, U-16 team, U-14 team, U-12 team and all the schools team to do it for nothing?

Quality vs Chancers
NOW ... the problem arises when you get chancers in trying to do something and messing it up - they are the mercenary managers

As for the question as to whether its a major problem - it isn't. If someone wants to pay for something - let them.

Padraic Duffy seems to think it is the biggest problem. Some here don't agree with that but still feel it is a problem. Would you agree with the following? If some one wants to pay the players for playing - let them.  

Trainers vs Managers
Trainers generally do more work and these guys range from the expert and skilled to a Stevie Wonder idiot who hardly knows what a ball is.
Personally I'd paid a trainer but not a Manager unless it was a legendary man who could make a massive difference.

So it is all about buying success? Is that what the Gaa is about?

A problem?
1. It's not a problem - what is it doing?
2. It's impossible to prove or disprove - Ireland is the home of 'cash in hand'
3. You can't stop it - it's called capitalism

1. It undermines the amateur ethos not to mention putting a drain on the resources of clubs and counties.
2. Are you serious?
3. See 2

A bigger problem facing the GAA is stoping our kids going to play Rugby and Soccer
Now there's something to be concerned with.

The Gaa is and has always been the biggest sporting organisation in the country. Most of us here played soccer even if only using two jumpers or a gate. We survived and so did the Gaa. It is almost traditional to see threats to the Gaa everywhere, televised games, Saturday football, Italia '90 and now rugby. The Gaa is a lot more resilient than even it's supporter give it credit for. That is not to be complacent as you can't take it for granted but there is no need for paranoia.