Rugby In Ireland - Sky's the Limit?

[lfdown2]

Have 2 nephews (10 and 7) who have been mad into GAA this last 2 years. They never gave soccer a second look.

Came home today and saw a rugby ball in the garden. My ma said they were looking to go out and play rugby every time the rain stopped today. Found that weird. A few pile drivers on Saturday should sort that out.

i wouldnt worry to much, sure the tennis rackets come out during wimbeldon and the darts during the lakeside...

[Hardy]

That's a bit like shooting a man in the back when he's walking away, Indiana. We had the same when people from other sports were coming in here to accuse the GAA of sectarianism and bigotry at the very time when we were repealing Rule 42 and the other one about British soldiers and police.

It seems clear, from the examples given, that rugby is spreading its base and no longer consciously confining itself to its traditional privileged enclave, so this seems like a funny time to be attacking it for that perceived fault. A century or more of tradition won't collapse overnight, however, so short of a ban on players from traditional rugby schools, I imagine it's reasonable to expect to see a few from Blackrock, Clongowes, etc. on the Leinster team for a while yet.

(Why am I defending rugby left right and centre, all of a sudden? Am I a bandwaggoner?).

[FermGael]

Dinny,
        I have a brother who was involved with the Ulster U-18's set up last year.
They created a squad that did not include those who played for the 'traditional' schools teams.
The whole set up was a complete joke.  No training, No communication, kits that were years old when they went ot play a match, i could go on.
Our U-12's have more organisation about them. 
Most of these lads were from Catholic schools and from Protestant Working class schools in the North


Now the brother also knows some of those involved in the other U-18 squad based on the schools players.Play's a wee bit of club rugby with them.(when they are allowed)
Again this squad was made up from 'traditional' rugby schools of the North, (RBNI, Potora, Methody, Inst,etc...........)

Night and day was the difference.  It was shocking.................

[Malone Aristocrat]

I know the criteria for selection for the Leinster academy- you don't. So don't start telling me what I do and what I don't know

Indiana if you really want to pursue this arguement with me I better point that I am a Level II coach in Leinster rugby, I coach schools, youths and club, I have been involved in identifying young rugby talent in Kildare and know many of the Leinster Academy members and coaches personally. The head of the Leinster Academy is Colin McEntee, a working class lad who went to Naas CBS who played Leinster Youths, Irish Youths and professionally for Leinster, do you honestly think that he only looks at players from Section B schools.

Just because you played SCT 20 odd years ago does not make you all of a sudden an expert, going to Clongowes or Blackrock only gives you a head start because you are exposed to high level coaching 4/5 times a week for 6 years, Clongowes doesn't even produce that many Internationals. Newbridge College whose fees are nominal produces as many interantionals as Clongowes.

To be honest since you didn't respond to the working class arguement I don't see any point in pursuing a debate with a guy who just argues with Cliches and sterotypes and tells me quite flippantly that he knows the selection criteria for the Leinster Academy when he painfiully doesn't.

You didn't answer my question did you. I've noticed that about you you're good at answering the questions no-one asked. 12 out of the 15 starters for Ireland on Saturday came from private school. 75% of Leinster academy players go to private school. Do you want me to take out the list of the Irish u20 team this year and detail where they are from as well? Do you want me to put the Leinster u20 team and detail where they are from as well. I go to all the leinster games- I even go to the A games- I doubt very much you know more about the leinster rugby team than I do.

Lets start with the leinster senior team

Rob Kearney- clongowes
Luke Fitz- blackrock
BOD- blackrock
Darcy- Clongowes
Sexton- St marys college
Donohue- belvedere
Healy- belvedere
Heaslip- newbridge college
Jennings-st marys college
MOK- st marys college
Toner- Castleknock College
Cullen -Blackrock Colllege
Dempsey-Terenure
Brown- Blackrock College
Keane- belvedere college

That leaves Horgan , Jackman and O Brien as the only 3 players from club rugby. Now Dinny do you really want to debate the inequities the system seriously. Its a debate you're going to lose from all angles. Tell me how many of those schools above you don't have to pay to attend?
Jamie Hagan and Eamonn Sheridan are the only 2 academy players that haven't attended private school.
I love my rugby but I detest the inequities of the system that don;t make it a game for the masses and when i see working class lads representing leinster on a  regular basis the I'll start to believe.

You seem to have already moved a fair distance already from your original position:

Tankie- I'm a life long rugby fan I even played the game for a while. I know the divide that exists. Believe me when I say it no-one from a working class area will play for the Leinster first team, there are people in the Leinster branch who will make sure of it. Its an elitist game in Leinster and will be for the forseeable future.

Reading your opinions on other topics indiana you certainly have a high opinion of your own expertise in a variety of subjects.

[Dinny Breen]

I know the divide that exists. Believe me when I say it no-one from a working class area will play for the Leinster first team, there are people in the Leinster branch who will make sure of it.

Since I pointed out that working class lads do actually play for Leinster you have completely changed track and are now going on about inequalaities which I agree with to an extent but as BC mentiioned the theory behind outliers explains this, Section B schools, many of whom offer scholarships to youths players (Bob Casey, Tony Buckley, two examples) train 4/5 times a week with full-time coaches, will be on strict conditioning and nutrition programs, they are so far in advance of your average youths rugby player in terms of basic skills it can take years to bridge the gap but the likes of Ferris, Horgan, Hayes etc have shown the gap can be closed with the proper coaching and attitude from the players.

75% of Leinster academy players go to private school.

Which means you awkowledge 25% didn't, what was it like before rugby professional, I would say 100% private and in that situation yes your old school tie was important, Leinster Rugby is moving forward but the IRFU deliberately fund Blackrock, St Mary's, OB Terenure etc because although the schools system has failed for years it is now bearing fruit because of the high intense training these young men take but the Leinster Branch have spent a lot money on youth development squads that are getting proper coaching (I hope as I am one of them) that can prepare them to compete with schools for Academy places, Leinster's Elite Player development officer was in charge of Leinster Youths this year, that is how serious they are taking it. They have advertised for next years coaching team and have received over 30 applicants including 10 ex-professional coaches. Leinster rugby has a terrible rep, a lot of it deserved but it's evolving and deserves massive credit for the steps it has taken.

By the way Jackman went to Newbridge College and O'Kelly went to Templeogue a non-fee paying rugby school.

Also just to keep within the thread Tankie, Rugby will be never be in the top 3 sports in Ireland, rugby is not like soccer, you just can't throw a bag of balls over your should and call yourself a rugby club, but it was a great weekend for Irish sports and I totally enjoyed the rugby, the boxing and the Kildare Armagh game and all 3 in their own way made me proud to Irish, particularly when it's popular thing to knock us these days..

[Dinny Breen]

Dinny,
        I have a brother who was involved with the Ulster U-18's set up last year.
They created a squad that did not include those who played for the 'traditional' schools teams.

Disappointing to here that but from talking to Allen Clarke last summer they hope to addess that, Ulster Rugby knows it has to broaden it's player base as it's been left behind by Munster and Leinster.

[INDIANA]

I know the divide that exists. Believe me when I say it no-one from a working class area will play for the Leinster first team, there are people in the Leinster branch who will make sure of it.

Since I pointed out that working class lads do actually play for Leinster you have completely changed track and are now going on about inequalaities which I agree with to an extent but as BC mentiioned the theory behind outliers explains this, Section B schools, many of whom offer scholarships to youths players (Bob Casey, Tony Buckley, two examples) train 4/5 times a week with full-time coaches, will be on strict conditioning and nutrition programs, they are so far in advance of your average youths rugby player in terms of basic skills it can take years to bridge the gap but the likes of Ferris, Horgan, Hayes etc have shown the gap can be closed with the proper coaching and attitude from the players.

75% of Leinster academy players go to private school.

Which means you awkowledge 25% didn't, what was it like before rugby professional, I would say 100% private and in that situation yes your old school tie was important, Leinster Rugby is moving forward but the IRFU deliberately fund Blackrock, St Mary's, OB Terenure etc because although the schools system has failed for years it is now bearing fruit because of the high intense training these young men take but the Leinster Branch have spent a lot money on youth development squads that are getting proper coaching (I hope as I am one of them) that can prepare them to compete with schools for Academy places, Leinster's Elite Player development officer was in charge of Leinster Youths this year, that is how serious they are taking it. They have advertised for next years coaching team and have received over 30 applicants including 10 ex-professional coaches. Leinster rugby has a terrible rep, a lot of it deserved but it's evolving and deserves massive credit for the steps it has taken.

By the way Jackman went to Newbridge College and O'Kelly went to Templeogue a non-fee paying rugby school.

Also just to keep within the thread Tankie, Rugby will be never be in the top 3 sports in Ireland, rugby is not like soccer, you just can't throw a bag of balls over your should and call yourself a rugby club, but it was a great weekend for Irish sports and I totally enjoyed the rugby, the boxing and the Kildare Armagh game and all 3 in their own way made me proud to Irish, particularly when it's popular thing to knock us these days..

Sorry Dinny - Tony Buckley went to Newbridge College - thats fee paying. i got my statistics wrong its 2 players in the leinster academy out of 15 thats a lot more than 75%. I'm not having a go at you -I'm having a go at the system. I cannot believe Dinny 25 years later that the same inequities exist in Leinster. Even from Trevor's day - there are no more club players playing for leinster then when he was there.
The other thing as well the standard of senior cup rugby (schools) is crap . Invariably both teams kick the ball back to each other because its a knockout competition. You get the odd exceptional team that run the ball but by and large the standard is brutal. the point being in a lot of cases these guys are not better than club underage rugby players. This is a fact Rob kearney got an academy contract despite not being able to pass off his left hand. Thats the standard of schools rugby- for all the training they do the skill level in alot of cases is brutal and leaves the academies with an inordinate amt of work to do to make them professionals.
The other thing as well is the lack of lateral thinking in the Leinster Branch. Leinster have lacked a physical pack of forwards for years (irish born). yet they still look for hard nosed forwards where all the nancy boys are from. Anyone with a modicum of rugby knowledge must know in the farms of meath-carlow-wicklow etc there must be a 100 lads who would meet the physical requirements necessary and they would add a bit of grit to proceedings. Yet all we have is Sean O Brien. there must be 50 Sean O Briens in leinster yet someone from blackrock college has a better chance.
I know a lot of people who didnt watch last Saturday.Its sad.
I don't agree with Humphries either Hardy but he knows he's on safe ground because there are thousands who agree with him- especially in Dublin. My local rugby club have won the AIL div1 twice in the last decade yet its nearly broke. thats the inequities of the system.

[BallyhaiseMan]

Going back to Humphries article for a second. Its bewildering, id say with clubmates and all id have been talking to or been in the company of over 50 Die Hard GAA men and women either before/during or after the rugby on saturday and all were as nervous before and eventually as ecstatic as any D4head after Ireland won.
Ive yet to hear anyone either begrudge or say they didnt care about Irelands Grand Slan win and i am from  one of the most fanatical GAA counties in the country where Rugby and Soccer are virtually non existant.
Humphries would want to grow up and realise him and his ilk are  but a miniscule part of the larger GAA fraternity,the vast majority of whom went through every emotion and cringed at every irish turnover during the game on Saturday.

[INDIANA]

Ballyhaise I don't agree. I've 10 die hard gaa friends- 6 of them went to private school. 7 of them didn't watch the game. Of those 6 - 3 didn't watch it.  I was at the hurlers in Parnell on Sunday- a lot of people around me didn't watch it either. There is serious apathy towards rugby in Dublin in particular. The whole Ross O Carroll -Kelly image has done Leinster Rugby no favours in Dublin. A lot of people on the northside can't abide rugby because of it.

[BallyhaiseMan]

Ballyhaise I don't agree. I've 10 die hard gaa friends- 6 of them went to private school. 7 of them didn't watch the game. Of those 6 - 3 didn't watch it.  I was at the hurlers in Parnell on Sunday- a lot of people around me didn't watch it either. There is serious apathy towards rugby in Dublin in particular. The whole Ross O Carroll -Kelly image has done Leinster Rugby no favours in Dublin. A lot of people on the northside can't abide rugby because of it.

i suppose it might be different in counties where the GAA are competing for players and supporters with Rugby,but i know in Cavan all or the vast majority of lads on the club team at home were watching and cheering on the Rugby team.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

For what it's worth, I was delighted for Ireland on Saturday, cheered every point (even one of the Welsh ones - thought Ireland were going the wrong way!  )
That said, I will have no more interest in the odd shaped ball now until next Feb and another 6 nations.

[INDIANA]

Ballyhaise I don't agree. I've 10 die hard gaa friends- 6 of them went to private school. 7 of them didn't watch the game. Of those 6 - 3 didn't watch it.  I was at the hurlers in Parnell on Sunday- a lot of people around me didn't watch it either. There is serious apathy towards rugby in Dublin in particular. The whole Ross O Carroll -Kelly image has done Leinster Rugby no favours in Dublin. A lot of people on the northside can't abide rugby because of it.

i suppose it might be different in counties where the GAA are competing for players and supporters with Rugby,but i know in Cavan all or the vast majority of lads on the club team at home were watching and cheering on the Rugby team.

When you have people from leinster supporting the munster rugby team- things can't be that good. Even though most of the munster team went to private school it still has lads from Moyross like Keith Earls playing for them. As a result most rural people outside munster identify with them more than their own province. Its not something I do myself- but you'd be amazed how many leinster people travel to thomond park. I'm even surprised by it.
It has a hard job ahead- leinster rugby. But a few HEC's would probably help matters. But it has to start bringing players through from club rugby.

[Franko]

Forgive my ignorance here but I'm very interested in this whole argument - could anyone answer these questions,

What would be the standard route to top level provincial/international rugby player in Ireland?
Why is there a feeling that clubs are so badly looked after?
Where do one of these school players go to to play their rugby when they leave school?

I'm just interested to know a bit about the internal structures in rugby - as Hardy mentioned somewhere - I think i'm a bandwagoner!

[Gnevin]

Forgive my ignorance here but I'm very interested in this whole argument - could anyone answer these questions,

What would be the standard route to top level provincial/international rugby player in Ireland?
Why is there a feeling that clubs are so badly looked after?
Where do one of these school players go to to play their rugby when they leave school?

I'm just interested to know a bit about the internal structures in rugby - as Hardy mentioned somewhere - I think i'm a bandwagoner!

A lot of the club feel badly looked after because before and just after professionalism they where are the top of the tree, it was very soon realised they couldn't compete internationally and the province where dropped in on top them and took their players.

Also some of the top clubs in Ireland use to get rather healthy crowds and don't any more. Its hard not to be king any more i guess.

[Dinny Breen]

What would be the standard route to top level provincial/international rugby player in Ireland?

Your best chance is to goto a top rugby playing school, the youths direction is a lot harder due to lack of coaching access to players, you would then pogress to Provincial Schools/Youths U18 and U19 rep teams, then provincial academy and then full-time professional

Why is there a feeling that clubs are so badly looked after?

Schools players can only play for their school and not their club at under-age level,  it has been a long time arguement and I believe it is wrong that these players can't play for the clubs.

Where do one of these school players go to to play their rugby when they leave school?

60% of schools rugby players will go on to play under u20 (changing next year to u19 and u21) rugby with a club side, this figure dwindles to 20% by the time they are finished playing 20s