The Many Faces of US Politics...

[David McKeown]

Legally speaking I think the ICE officer has a workable defence and would even hear. Morally it is absolutely horrible.

I used to dream of living and working in the states. I'm dual qualified over there. I've now cancelled this years holiday to there. I can't see me being back during this term.

Seen a few legal experts based in the states saying that it's unwinnable- if he'd just fired the first shot they'd have a chance of working something, with the second and third shots theres no defence and they say if they were offered anything less than life without parole they'd strongly advise their client to take it.

100% agree on not travelling there, had planned on heading to New York and Nashville at some point but will be putting that off until the orange twat is gone.

I've never defended anyone on a murder charge in America to be fair so I'll bow to their expertise. Here there would be a very workable defence and it would come down to what the honest belief of the ICE officer was as the reasonableness and proportionality of the response has to be judged against that.

My view is that a jury could very well say in the heat of the moment the ICE agent may have interpreted the actions of the deceased as being aggressive and would then give him a considerable degree of latitude

David, I'd bow to your superior legal knowledge, but surely there's a threshold for interpretation. As in it would have to correlate to the actions. Claiming fear of being killed by the vehicle can't be enough to remove guilt. Otherwise all state murder cases would falter. Surely bringing evidence to show the fear was unfounded and that the actions of the officer were incomparable to the actions of the victim has to play a part. That said, I don't expect that to be the case now as it's gone political and I don't believe there will be a fair investigation either way.
ICE officers must be starting to rethink their career prospects. It's now only a matter of time before this resistance to their presence is increased and their own safety is going to be an issue.

Here the law is that when assessing self defence or defence of another you must act with force proportionate to what you honestly believe is happening. A point reinforced is the Demenezs case of the student shot and killed after July 7th in London by police who honestly believed he was someone else who they thought may have a bomb.

If self defence is raised then it's for the prosecution to disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt. It's a two stage process, firstly what was the honest belief of the defendant and secondly were there actions a reasonable proportionate response to that belief. There's no interpretation to it per se. If you honestly believed you were about to be killed killing someone to prevent is likely reasonable and proportionate. If however you thought you were going to receive minor injuries then killing someone likely not.

The reasonableness of the belief doesn't really come into play save that a more reasonable belief is more likely to be an honest belief and vice versa. That said a completely unreasonable belief can still be an honest belief.

Self defence doesn't work if the defendant was the aggressor (unless they withdrew). Or if the threat had ended making the force more retaliatory than defensive. It also doesn't apply if the force was grossly disproportionate

[David McKeown]

Legally speaking I think the ICE officer has a workable defence and would even hear. Morally it is absolutely horrible.

I used to dream of living and working in the states. I'm dual qualified over there. I've now cancelled this years holiday to there. I can't see me being back during this term.

Seen a few legal experts based in the states saying that it's unwinnable- if he'd just fired the first shot they'd have a chance of working something, with the second and third shots theres no defence and they say if they were offered anything less than life without parole they'd strongly advise their client to take it.

100% agree on not travelling there, had planned on heading to New York and Nashville at some point but will be putting that off until the orange twat is gone.

I've never defended anyone on a murder charge in America to be fair so I'll bow to their expertise. Here there would be a very workable defence and it would come down to what the honest belief of the ICE officer was as the reasonableness and proportionality of the response has to be judged against that.

My view is that a jury could very well say in the heat of the moment the ICE agent may have interpreted the actions of the deceased as being aggressive and would then give him a considerable degree of latitude

Heat of the moment on the first shot you could probably argue (wrongly of course) but what about the shots through the side window when it was clear there was no threat? Surely there's no legal justification for that??

I'm not sure it would be wrong to make that argument. As for the shots through the side window but it looked to me like the guy fired a barrage of shots with adjusting aim or delaying between shots. The different places they entered the car seemed to be caused by the car moving rather than by them being anything other than a heat of the moment response.

I want to be very clear I'm not condoning this. What I am saying is that I think legally there is a good self defence case there or at least would be under the law here. I don't practice law in the States very much anymore and I have never practiced in Minnesota.

[Milltown Row2]

People are emotional but the images show clearly his case is strong[aside from having Fedgov backing].

She Reverses car, as the wheels are still pointed left[by 5-10 degrees] they start spinning, car lurches forward a bit then wheels turn right. Her intention was to flee the scene/evade arrest without harming anyone. It does not matter in LAW.

From POV of the shooter he can claim to be in fear for his life as an audibly revving 2 ton SUV with spinning tyres is aimed at him. Thats the crucial moment he decided to act and all you need to justify force. Then you have the shooters prior incident being dragged[prob shouldnt be on frontline duty due to this]

>Minnesota Statutes § 609.065
Deadly force is justified only:
"when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode."

You have a duty to retreat unless its your own home. He will say be didnt have time to dive out of the way.

Its clear his colleague shouting at her was the catalyzing event. It caught the shooter off guard as the car had been sitting stationary for a while, whilst he was milling around.

Her partner[Becca] shouted "drive drive!" , making her an accessory[under law] to whatever Renee Good was going to be charged with. Becca blamed herself for them being there to begin with.

Its a stupid situation all round.

There is a place waiting for c***ts like you

Fingers crossed it's soon

[DaleCooper]

Brilliant contribution

[Truthsayer]

People are emotional but the images show clearly his case is strong[aside from having Fedgov backing].

She Reverses car, as the wheels are still pointed left[by 5-10 degrees] they start spinning, car lurches forward a bit then wheels turn right. Her intention was to flee the scene/evade arrest without harming anyone. It does not matter in LAW.

From POV of the shooter he can claim to be in fear for his life as an audibly revving 2 ton SUV with spinning tyres is aimed at him. Thats the crucial moment he decided to act and all you need to justify force. Then you have the shooters prior incident being dragged[prob shouldnt be on frontline duty due to this]

>Minnesota Statutes § 609.065
Deadly force is justified only:
"when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode."

You have a duty to retreat unless its your own home. He will say be didnt have time to dive out of the way.

Its clear his colleague shouting at her was the catalyzing event. It caught the shooter off guard as the car had been sitting stationary for a while, whilst he was milling around.

Her partner[Becca] shouted "drive drive!" , making her an accessory[under law] to whatever Renee Good was going to be charged with. Becca blamed herself for them being there to begin with.

Its a stupid situation all round.

From the very start you have justified this woman's murder. Is no doubt your agenda. We had maggots like you defend murders by the State here for years and currently trying to stop any prosecutions of soldiers who clearly committed murder. Is not a hope that ICE KKK will be convicted for that same reason... State murdering it's citizens is nothing new.

[Armagh18]

Brilliant contribution

It's all a post like yours deserves.

How any Irish person can sit there and condone state sponsored murder after what people on this island went through (and are still going through to this day fighting for justice) I can't get my head around

[Armagh18]

Legally speaking I think the ICE officer has a workable defence and would even hear. Morally it is absolutely horrible.

I used to dream of living and working in the states. I'm dual qualified over there. I've now cancelled this years holiday to there. I can't see me being back during this term.

Seen a few legal experts based in the states saying that it's unwinnable- if he'd just fired the first shot they'd have a chance of working something, with the second and third shots theres no defence and they say if they were offered anything less than life without parole they'd strongly advise their client to take it.

100% agree on not travelling there, had planned on heading to New York and Nashville at some point but will be putting that off until the orange twat is gone.

I've never defended anyone on a murder charge in America to be fair so I'll bow to their expertise. Here there would be a very workable defence and it would come down to what the honest belief of the ICE officer was as the reasonableness and proportionality of the response has to be judged against that.

My view is that a jury could very well say in the heat of the moment the ICE agent may have interpreted the actions of the deceased as being aggressive and would then give him a considerable degree of latitude

Heat of the moment on the first shot you could probably argue (wrongly of course) but what about the shots through the side window when it was clear there was no threat? Surely there's no legal justification for that??

I'm not sure it would be wrong to make that argument. As for the shots through the side window but it looked to me like the guy fired a barrage of shots with adjusting aim or delaying between shots. The different places they entered the car seemed to be caused by the car moving rather than by them being anything other than a heat of the moment response.

I want to be very clear I'm not condoning this. What I am saying is that I think legally there is a good self defence case there or at least would be under the law here. I don't practice law in the States very much anymore and I have never practiced in Minnesota.

Thanks for taking the time to write a detailed response as always. Let's hope he faces some sort of justice at some point.

[tonto1888]

Legally speaking I think the ICE officer has a workable defence and would even hear. Morally it is absolutely horrible.

I used to dream of living and working in the states. I'm dual qualified over there. I've now cancelled this years holiday to there. I can't see me being back during this term.

Seen a few legal experts based in the states saying that it's unwinnable- if he'd just fired the first shot they'd have a chance of working something, with the second and third shots theres no defence and they say if they were offered anything less than life without parole they'd strongly advise their client to take it.

100% agree on not travelling there, had planned on heading to New York and Nashville at some point but will be putting that off until the orange twat is gone.

I've never defended anyone on a murder charge in America to be fair so I'll bow to their expertise. Here there would be a very workable defence and it would come down to what the honest belief of the ICE officer was as the reasonableness and proportionality of the response has to be judged against that.

My view is that a jury could very well say in the heat of the moment the ICE agent may have interpreted the actions of the deceased as being aggressive and would then give him a considerable degree of latitude

I don't like the honest belief argument. Far too open to abuse for LEOs, or others I suppose, to have a completely over the top reaction and then throw that in afterwards

[David McKeown]

Legally speaking I think the ICE officer has a workable defence and would even hear. Morally it is absolutely horrible.

I used to dream of living and working in the states. I'm dual qualified over there. I've now cancelled this years holiday to there. I can't see me being back during this term.

Seen a few legal experts based in the states saying that it's unwinnable- if he'd just fired the first shot they'd have a chance of working something, with the second and third shots theres no defence and they say if they were offered anything less than life without parole they'd strongly advise their client to take it.

100% agree on not travelling there, had planned on heading to New York and Nashville at some point but will be putting that off until the orange twat is gone.

I've never defended anyone on a murder charge in America to be fair so I'll bow to their expertise. Here there would be a very workable defence and it would come down to what the honest belief of the ICE officer was as the reasonableness and proportionality of the response has to be judged against that.

My view is that a jury could very well say in the heat of the moment the ICE agent may have interpreted the actions of the deceased as being aggressive and would then give him a considerable degree of latitude

I don't like the honest belief argument. Far too open to abuse for LEOs, or others I suppose, to have a completely over the top reaction and then throw that in afterwards

I wouldn't say it's abused here to be fair. I mean if someone does make it up afterward it's often it's usually easily enough disproved similarly if it's not made up then it's quite compelling usually.

[Armagh4sam2024]

Legally speaking I think the ICE officer has a workable defence and would even hear. Morally it is absolutely horrible.

I used to dream of living and working in the states. I'm dual qualified over there. I've now cancelled this years holiday to there. I can't see me being back during this term.

Seen a few legal experts based in the states saying that it's unwinnable- if he'd just fired the first shot they'd have a chance of working something, with the second and third shots theres no defence and they say if they were offered anything less than life without parole they'd strongly advise their client to take it.

100% agree on not travelling there, had planned on heading to New York and Nashville at some point but will be putting that off until the orange twat is gone.

Doesn't matter what he gets or doesn't get. Trump will pardon him

[Armagh18]

Legally speaking I think the ICE officer has a workable defence and would even hear. Morally it is absolutely horrible.

I used to dream of living and working in the states. I'm dual qualified over there. I've now cancelled this years holiday to there. I can't see me being back during this term.

Seen a few legal experts based in the states saying that it's unwinnable- if he'd just fired the first shot they'd have a chance of working something, with the second and third shots theres no defence and they say if they were offered anything less than life without parole they'd strongly advise their client to take it.

100% agree on not travelling there, had planned on heading to New York and Nashville at some point but will be putting that off until the orange twat is gone.

Doesn't matter what he gets or doesn't get. Trump will pardon him

100%. Hopefully no charges are brought until a democrat is in charge