The OFFICIAL Liverpool FC thread - RIP Diogo

[corn02]

Very good article by Kenny Archer in the Irish News ytoday, fairly balanced and really takes apart this whole Benitez bad, Ferguson good myth.

Stew, after Liverpool beat United 4-1 Ferguson threw out some false figures about Liverpool's spending, so he must be an arrogant p***k too.

When Archer writes about Liverpool its anything but balanced. It was a poor article that covered nothing that hasn't been done to death in the last 2 or 3 months and though he made several accurate points, I thought on the whole it came across as very bitter.

Why because he didn;t come out and say good old Fergie and Rafa is a ranting lunatic like the red tops?

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

Very good article by Kenny Archer in the Irish News ytoday, fairly balanced and really takes apart this whole Benitez bad, Ferguson good myth.

Stew, after Liverpool beat United 4-1 Ferguson threw out some false figures about Liverpool's spending, so he must be an arrogant p***k too.

When Archer writes about Liverpool its anything but balanced. It was a poor article that covered nothing that hasn't been done to death in the last 2 or 3 months and though he made several accurate points, I thought on the whole it came across as very bitter.

Why because he didn;t come out and say good old Fergie and Rafa is a ranting lunatic like the red tops?

Come on Corn, kenny Archer is about as balanced when it comes to liverpool as yourself and Laoislad.

[Doogie Browser]

It was a load of rubbish, his repetition of 'knock them off their (expletive deleted) perch' was annoying as hell. 

[blewuporstuffed]

Very good article by Kenny Archer in the Irish News ytoday, fairly balanced and really takes apart this whole Benitez bad, Ferguson good myth.

Stew, after Liverpool beat United 4-1 Ferguson threw out some false figures about Liverpool's spending, so he must be an arrogant p***k too.

When Archer writes about Liverpool its anything but balanced. It was a poor article that covered nothing that hasn't been done to death in the last 2 or 3 months and though he made several accurate points, I thought on the whole it came across as very bitter.

Why because he didn;t come out and say good old Fergie and Rafa is a ranting lunatic like the red tops?

Come on Corn, kenny Archer is about as balanced when it comes to liverpool as yourself and Laoislad.

can someone post the article?

[gorm agus bui]

Very good article by Kenny Archer in the Irish News ytoday, fairly balanced and really takes apart this whole Benitez bad, Ferguson good myth.

Stew, after Liverpool beat United 4-1 Ferguson threw out some false figures about Liverpool's spending, so he must be an arrogant p***k too.

Yes balanced in that he has a chip on each shoulder. His writing on Man Utd is as bout as objective as that w****r Alan Green's commentary. Cheap, lazy, tabloid crap at its worst.
Had the pleasure of dealing with the aforementioned Mr Archer at a county Match a couple of years ago.
Arrogant bollix

[corn02]

Very good article by Kenny Archer in the Irish News ytoday, fairly balanced and really takes apart this whole Benitez bad, Ferguson good myth.

Stew, after Liverpool beat United 4-1 Ferguson threw out some false figures about Liverpool's spending, so he must be an arrogant p***k too.

When Archer writes about Liverpool its anything but balanced. It was a poor article that covered nothing that hasn't been done to death in the last 2 or 3 months and though he made several accurate points, I thought on the whole it came across as very bitter.

Why because he didn;t come out and say good old Fergie and Rafa is a ranting lunatic like the red tops?

Come on Corn, kenny Archer is about as balanced when it comes to liverpool as yourself and Laoislad.

Did you read it? I don't think he has ever hidden his support of Liverpool but he made good points such as the lack of coverage of Ferguson quoting WRONG figures about Liverpool's spending after the 4-1 defeat, why is this different to Benitez talking about spending seeing as he gets derided constantly on these forums for it?

Ferguson also labelled that 4-1 defeat as a "travesty" last Saturday after they won the title, yet all the chit-chat was about how Rafa was a bad loser.

TAC I wouldn;t exactly call you balanced either when you discuss United my friend.

[Goats Do Shave]

In January, Benitez spoke for many in football when he pointed out that Ferguson generally
escaped punishment despite regularly criticising referees and their assistants.
This instantly became known as 'Rafa's rant' (partly because 'Benitez's carefully-considered and calmly-delivered critique', although accurate, wasn't half as headline-friendly), and was apparently delivered out of the blue.

He lost the run of himself... he was bright red with anger whilst reading his notes... This rant coincided with Liverpool's collapse from the top of the league!

In fact (yes, fact!), it came in response to repeated remarks from Ferguson about Liverpool.

(He never even named the remarks... lazy!)

Ferguson bided his time before listing wrong figures about Liverpool's spending, after the latter's 4-1 victory at Old Trafford and before Manchester United's game at Fulham, which the visitors lost 2-0. Strangely, this wasn't blamed on his pre-match remarks about Liverpool.

He didn't have notes prepared, he was replying to questions from the media!  - Anyway the constant crying about transfer fee's & money makes me sick! – Firstly Corn posted a web site where the expenditure figures of both clubs were similar! Secondly, why didn't Liverpool cash in on their success by building a larger stadium, & promoting the club world wide... like UTD have done? It's not because of rich benefactors that UTD have been able to spend money, it's because they are a well run business & the best supported club in the world!!

Ferguson also felt the need on Saturday to say that Liverpool's 4-1 win at Old Trafford was "a travesty".

So? It obviously hurt him like every UTD fan!

Yet just as history is written by the winners, much soccer coverage is reported by the winners' mates, so it's all Rafa's fault. Sure, Benitez might have been better off ignoring Ferguson, but sometimes one has to stand up to a bully. After all that playground palaver, the fact is that Manchester United fans have finally learned to count properly, and are now talking about their total of league titles, rather than simply referring to the number of Premier Leagues/ Premierships they've won. Again, strange that.

This statement highlights Kenny's bitterness the most – I love it!

[corn02]

In January, Benitez spoke for many in football when he pointed out that Ferguson generally
escaped punishment despite regularly criticising referees and their assistants.
This instantly became known as 'Rafa's rant' (partly because 'Benitez's carefully-considered and calmly-delivered critique', although accurate, wasn't half as headline-friendly), and was apparently delivered out of the blue.

He lost the run of himself... he was bright red with anger whilst reading his notes... This rant coincided with Liverpool's collapse from the top of the league!

In fact (yes, fact!), it came in response to repeated remarks from Ferguson about Liverpool.

(He never even named the remarks... lazy!)

Ferguson bided his time before listing wrong figures about Liverpool's spending, after the latter's 4-1 victory at Old Trafford and before Manchester United's game at Fulham, which the visitors lost 2-0. Strangely, this wasn't blamed on his pre-match remarks about Liverpool.

He didn't have notes prepared, he was replying to questions from the media!  - Anyway the constant crying about transfer fee's & money makes me sick! – Firstly Corn posted a web site where the expenditure figures of both clubs were similar! Secondly, why didn't Liverpool cash in on their success by building a larger stadium, & promoting the club world wide... like UTD have done? It's not because of rich benefactors that UTD have been able to spend money, it's because they are a well run business & the best supported club in the world!!

Ferguson also felt the need on Saturday to say that Liverpool's 4-1 win at Old Trafford was "a travesty".

So? It obviously hurt him like every UTD fan!

Yet just as history is written by the winners, much soccer coverage is reported by the winners' mates, so it's all Rafa's fault. Sure, Benitez might have been better off ignoring Ferguson, but sometimes one has to stand up to a bully. After all that playground palaver, the fact is that Manchester United fans have finally learned to count properly, and are now talking about their total of league titles, rather than simply referring to the number of Premier Leagues/ Premierships they've won. Again, strange that.

This statement highlights Kenny's bitterness the most – I love it!

So because his face was red it was a rant? Wrong, the fact it was pre-prepared rules that out. Ill advised possible, but not rant, otherwise you would have no choice but to agree that Ferguson went on a rant when he and Sam collaborated with those far fethched comments?

I'm glad crying about money makes you sick, because Ferguson done the same after the United match comparing Liverpool's spending, that must have made you sick too.

Funny how in the last week the boast has changed from 'only premiership counts' to 18-all. Funny that.

I wouldn;t expect yous to like the article, simply because there is truth in it and the turth hurts through those red-tinted specs.

Also when you talk about spending you fail to acknowledge that Liverpool had to sell viable squad players rather than deadwood to raise funds.

[corn02]

From a Liverpool writer so obviosuly biased, but you can't argue with the facts within...




Thankfully, most media outlets seem to have seen the massive inaccuracy in Alex Ferguson's figures relating to Liverpool's spending.

That he should even choose to come out with such figures in the first place is interesting, given his rather undignified reaction to Rafa's 'fact' press conference a couple of months back.
 
I'm also still smiling over his 'we were the better side' comments following their total humiliation last week, which every neutral I've spoken to found hilarious. That United played so well was obviously the reason Old Trafford was so empty in the last 10 minutes. He's also had a pop by excluding Rafa's name from the best managers in the league, which seems a bit childish for a pensioner.
 
You can't argue with Ferguson's success as a manager, but you can with some of the things he says.
 
This season may be a learning curve for Liverpool, with the league United's to lose even before their two main rivals were drawn against each other in the Champions League (which yet means the teams aspiring to catch United play each other in titanic, exhausting battles, as seen with Chelsea and Arsenal facing Liverpool last season while United get the easy draw.)
 
But the United manager is clearly worried, particularly as stability has been put in place at Anfield regarding the manager's future.
 
That the United manager should already be talking about Liverpool's future spending is fascinating. Why do so, unless he's worried?
 
Ferguson talks about the young players United have signed, and bizarrely says that Rafa, a man who started out in youth development, does things differently.
 
Perhaps Torres, Reina, Alonso, Mascherano, Agger, Lucas, Babel and Skrtel weren't all young players – aged 20-23 – when Rafa signed them after all, and all the teenage talent brought to the club, including Insua, Nemeth, Pacheco, Plessis and Ngog, is just a mirage?
 
How many players in their 30s has Rafa brought to the club? I can't think of one before or after Pellegrino, at 33, in 2005. Nor one as old as Henrik Larsson or Edwin van der Sar.
 
Robbie Keane was the oldest major signing Benítez has made, and perhaps the fact that he turns 29 this summer was why he was shipped out so quickly; at that age, if it doesn't look like it's working, you can't bide your time, particularly if a good offer comes in before the age-related depreciation takes place.
 
But the major flaw in Ferguson's argument is the fact that he already had half of his squad in place in 2004 when Rafa arrived.
 
He hasn't needed to rebuild an entire squad from scratch, merely add the £15m-£30m adornments. Rafa has clearly had to deal in quantity to cover all positions, but Ferguson has had the luxury of looking solely at quality.
 
So the two situations are poles apart. Ferguson had already spent big on players like Rio Ferdinand before Rafa pitched up.
 
He already had the players who emerged because of his youth system, which took almost seven years to bear fruit beyond one player (Giggs emerged in year five). Benítez would only be at that stage in 2011.
 
Indeed, if you add together every single player Rafa has bought (and there have been around 60, many of whom were mere kids), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.
 
Even if you also add the cost of those players Rafa inherited who are still at the club (and there are just three), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.
 
Including players out on loan (but not the full Tevez fee due this summer), United's squad costs over £215m, compared with Liverpool's £134m.
 
Let me remind you of what I said a few weeks back:
 
"Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here."
 
Benítez is trying to overturn an established superpower, one that still has a dozen-or-so players who predate his arrival in England. Rafa has just three who were good enough and young enough to endure (not that Hyypia was young, but like Giggs he is evergreen).
 
As well as buy players, Rafa has had to change the culture of the club to fit in with his ideas, as all managers do; Ferguson did that 20 years ago. It's why it took him so long to win the title, as you cannot change things overnight.
 
Unless Benítez was going to try and compete for honours with the likes of Diao, Cheyrou, and Diouf, or players like Smicer, Dudek, Hamann and Henchoz, who are now all in their mid-30s (and therefore had a very short shelf-life), or injury-prone stars like Harry Kewell, Liverpool needed a fairly complete overhaul.
 
Particularly as Owen and Heskey had left, and Djibril Cissé was about to arrive, all of which had been pretty much decided before Rafa took the job. (Also, including Cissé as a Benítez signing only further skews the figures.)
 
So the inaccuracies are clear for all to see. But let's switch things a little.
 
How did Ferguson overtake Liverpool? The situation was very similar to that now, even if it was a long time ago now.
 
Remember, both Ferguson and Benítez arrived aged 44, and inherited squads that had averaged 4th over the previous four seasons, and finished 4th the season before they arrived. All the fours, then!
 
Each had a massive burden of expectation, brought about by a desperately long wait for the title. Alex Ferguson's average league position in his first five seasons at United was 8.6 (11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, and 6th). Benítez's, if Liverpool finish only 3rd this season, will be 3.6.
 
But Ferguson faced in Liverpool in the '80s an established team with a top-class manager. He couldn't get close to Dalglish during their time in the respective dugouts.
 
Ferguson spent more money between 1986 and February 1991 (£12.8m gross, £9.87m net) than Dalglish managed in his six seasons (£12.5m gross, but only £5.77m net), but got nowhere near to toppling the Reds in that time.
 
So United's net spend was virtually twice that of Liverpool, and yet Ferguson still didn't trouble Dalglish. The money Ferguson spent wisely in the late '80s on players like Ince, Pallister, Hughes and Bruce took four years to have any effect on the league title. This is only Torres and Mascherano's second season.
 
So why did Ferguson spend so much more than Dalglish?
 
Well, Dalglish (like Ferguson in 2004) had a lot of his squad already in place.
 
Grobbelaar, Hansen, McMahon, Whelan and Nicol all spanned the entire period when Dalglish and Ferguson managed the two English superpowers.
 
(Liverpool raised £3.2m from selling Ian Rush in 1987, but the Reds also spend almost as much to bring him back a year later.)
 
Those men formed the heart of Dalglish's Liverpool.
 
They were five players who didn't need to be signed between 1986 and 1991; the kind of quality that could cost a king's ransom if they hadn't already been snapped up before at the top of their powers.
 
Ian Rush, the sixth name, also had a Liverpool connection which meant that although he needed to be re-signed, it was a relatively easy deal because of his time at Anfield.
 
Of course, Rush's initial departure led to the greatest influx of talent seen under Dalglish: the wonderful quartet of Aldridge, Beardsley, Barnes and Houghton. So Dalglish was partly 'blessed' in that Rush, whom he inherited, at least raised enough money to rebuild the attack upon his transfer.
 
Ferguson has enjoyed similar bonuses more recently: selling his best players for big fees as they approached their 30s (such as Stam, Beckham and Van Nistelrooy). Such sales now help keep Ferguson's net spend down, but in his first five years he couldn't get such impressive sums for Ron Atkinson's flops. So his net spend was very high for the times.
 
Again, make the comparison with Benítez and the likes of Diao and Cheyrou, who raised nothing.
 
Benítez never had such a luxury. Owen's value wasn't great due to his contract situation, leaving £10m less coming in. The only seriously saleable asset was Steven Gerrard.
 
The biggest profits Rafa has made have been on players he himself bought: Crouch, Bellamy, Sissoko. Of course, he hasn't been in the job long enough to sell his real gems, in the way Ferguson and Wenger (with Henry and Vieira) have picked the perfect time to cash in on world-class players aged 29/30/31.
 
If Rafa wanted to sell Torres he could make a massive profit, but thankfully the striker still has five years before he even reaches 30. So it's not relevant. Ideally, Torres would score loads of goals, win Liverpool titles, and return to his beloved Atletico no earlier than 2014 for a big fee.
 
Therefore you cannot ignore the way Ferguson overcame Liverpool – not by spending more, but by spending twice the amount.
 
So there you have it. It took the resignation of Dalglish to open the way for Ferguson, who had spent twice as much money but only averaged 9th place between 1986 and 1991. No wonder United fans wanted him out in 1990. But it just goes to show how difficult it is to overtake a side that already has the momentum, but that the best managers get there in the end.
 
If Ferguson is thinking back to how he did so, then no wonder he's feeling worried.

[corn02]

And while we are on media articles...

(Daily Mail)

Liverpool goalkeeper Pepe Reina last night added more fuel to the controversy over Alonso's possible departure by hailing his form as the main reason for the Merseyside club running United so close in this season's title race.

Reina said: 'Xabi is the player who always seems to have the ball at his feet. He has shown repeatedly that he can pass it five yards or 45, and every time it is just as good, just as accurate.

'This has been his best season so far for Liverpool, and that was the reason why we managed to push United so far in the title race.'


:DCan someone please tell me how the journalist deciphered those comments to mean he is going?

[EC Unique]

I Think this is a good artical with a lot of home truths for Rafa:

What if it's actually down to you, Rafa?

What if Ole Gunnar Solskjaer had flicked out a right boot only to lift the ball high over the bar against Bayern Munich in injury time?

What if Leeds United had refused to sell Eric Cantona on that fateful day in November 1992?

What if Mark Robins had failed to save his manager's job by scoring in a third-round FA Cup tie at Nottingham Forest 19 years ago?

The answer in each case is that Sir Alex Ferguson would not be where he is today, preparing to collect his third successive title before heading to Rome, while he looks proudly down from his managerial throne on Rafa Benitez and the rest.

Life is full of 'what ifs?' Everyone can write an alternative history of how things could have been very different, if only.

Never more so than in sport, where fractions can be the difference between everlasting glory and enduring ignominy.

But Benitez, perhaps feeling a sudden twinge from his stigmata again, decided to play the martyr as he declared a malign fate had somehow conspired against his club this season.

Anfield's boss claimed he could have won the Premier League ahead of Manchester United if only Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres had been fit on a few more occasions this season.

He argued that this was the real reason Liverpool now find themselves heading towards their 20th year without the title they so desperately crave.

It's a seductive thought and one that will even seem valid to many of the Kop faithful. Gerrard is a powerhouse and a true matchwinner. Torres is a sublime striker.

There is no doubting their worth and the absence of the duo has clearly had some effect on the season.

But so what? By that logic, my aunt would have been my uncle had she been born with a different set of genitalia.

Like many managers, Benitez often comes out with these pet theories to distract from his own shortcomings, dressing up excuses and peddling them as the 'facts' he professes to live by.

Every season is a maze of twists and turns, of good and bad luck, of wise decisions and errors. Every manager is beset by injury problems.

Rather than ask what might have happened if Gerrard and Torres were fit, Benitez would have been better served addressing other questions, although I suspect he might not like the answers.

Questions like: What if he'd been braver and played more positive football when Liverpool had a lead at the top of the table and United were away in Japan?

What if he hadn't drawn 11 games and allowed United to seize back control?
What if he'd actually used Robbie Keane properly during Torres's absence, instead of shunting him out the door?

What if he'd kept his counsel instead of launching that distracting attack on Ferguson?

What if he had played key players more often instead of leaving them on the bench?

What if he had bought more wisely and gathered together a squad better equipped for the challenges of a long season

I'd imagine his rivals could easily ask pertinent questions of their own.

What if United had started the season with a completely fit Cristiano Ronaldo and Wayne Rooney? Would the title race have been over long ago?

What if Owen Hargreaves had been available and running the midfield? What if Liverpool's squad players had taken on the responsibility presented to them in the way Jonny Evans, Darren Fletcher and Ji-sung Park have at Old Trafford?

What if Guus Hiddink had been Chelsea manager from the kick-off? What if Michael Essien had been fit all season?

What if Didier Drogba had been of sound body and mind throughout the entire campaign (OK, just body). Or Joe Cole, for that matter? Would Benitez still be in the runners-up spot?

What if Arsenal had not lost William Gallas, Tomas Rosicky, Eduardo, Gael Clichy, Robin van Persie, Cesc Fabregas, Theo Walcott and others at various points of the season, do you think that might have made a difference?

Benitez's argument is too simplistic. United disappeared to the Far East in mid-season to compete for the Club World Cup and Liverpool singularly failed to press home the advantage they had been given.

Remember, too, United went all the way to Wembley to win the Carling Cup final and reached the FA Cup semi-final. They did not flop out of both domestic cup competitions in the fourth round and have the luxury of some slack in their fixture list like Benitez.

The difference was Ferguson had a squad in place that was able to cope with the widespread demands and imponderables of a season. And rather than ask 'what if?' perhaps it's time to ask Benitez 'why?'

Why is he blaming injuries when his expensive collection of players has been amassed over five years? Why doesn't he have a squad deep enough to cope?

Why is Benitez blaming a lack of 'financial power' when he spent £7million on a third-choice left back and £40m last summer?

Destiny is often said to be a fool's excuse for failure. Yes, Liverpool are undoubtedly closer to United and Benitez is right to insist they are genuine contenders.

But it's not going to be any easier next time and the uncomfortable truth is they had an enormous opportunity to win the league this season and they blew it.

Posing irrelevant, hypothetical questions is not going to provide meaningful answers as to why that happened.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/art....html?ITO=1490

[full back]

Decent article

Its not just Rafa that doesnt want to answer these questions. A lot of scousers would prefer to ignore them as well

[Over the Bar]

LOL

I just read Kenny Archers article.   You can actually feel the bitterness in the words as you read it.   The Irish News sports editor must have been off the day that diatribe slipped thru the net.

The bit that takes the biscuit form me is where he states that Ferguson must be congratulated for "having pipped Liverpool to the title for the first time in his career".    lol   Don't write on an empty head Kenny!  

[Goats Do Shave]

Settle yourself Corn! Now you arguing over the definition of the word 'rant'!

To speak or write in an angry or violent manner

To divert your the money question back like that, doesn't get over the fact that the reason UTD have been able to spend money is because they're a well run business. By the way - I'd love you to name the players sold that were worth their place!?

If you'd prefer the 11 - 0 scoreline we'll use that... 

The article is the truth? - It's Opinion, simple as! & the article doesn't hurt, don't be silly! - I refer you to my previous scoreline statement! 

[Hound]

And while we are on media articles...

(Daily Mail)

Liverpool goalkeeper Pepe Reina last night added more fuel to the controversy over Alonso's possible departure by hailing his form as the main reason for the Merseyside club running United so close in this season's title race.

Reina said: 'Xabi is the player who always seems to have the ball at his feet. He has shown repeatedly that he can pass it five yards or 45, and every time it is just as good, just as accurate.

'This has been his best season so far for Liverpool, and that was the reason why we managed to push United so far in the title race.'


:DCan someone please tell me how the journalist deciphered those comments to mean he is going?

I'm sure the players don't want Xabi to go - but I don't think Benitez and Alonso's relationship has ever been the same since Xabi chose to miss an important match because his wife was due to go into labour.

Selling Xabi might be difference between having a £20m summer transfer kitty or a £40-45m one, which is presumably why Benitez might contemplate it. It is worrying seeing the speculation in the papers, I'd like to think there'd be others we could offload to raise some cash if necessary.