The OFFICIAL Liverpool Supporters thread

[AZOffaly]

corn, can you please stop equating 'pushing forwards in droves' with being creative, imaginative or positive. That's the last refuge of a team who are frustrated themselves and who don't have the quality or ideas to play really good attacking soccer.

Ara, I'm just grumpy tonight after that shite, the latest in a long line of steaming turds dropped by Rafa over the past 2 months or so.

Ok fair enough, but we did push forward and we created chances. I would label that as positive, can;t see how it is not to be honest.

Creative? Torres perhaps our best in that regard, but he was poor tonight. Yossi was creative tonight but that double drag-back thing says a lot about him, superb build up , no end product - that should have been two.

Imaginative? Hmm don't know. Again Torres is the man here, but even he isn;t as imaginative as Berbatov or Rooney.

I know what you're saying, but in my mind 'trying to win the game' is not good enough, as measured against 'being set up to win the game'. A shite team can be 'positive' in the former sense, but only a good team, with a manager who likes to play good open football is consistantly able to say the latter.

Liverpool are too often set up to not lose the game, and hope that Gerrard or Torres will win it for them. That's not good enough to me.

[The Real Laoislad]

Have strongly defended Rafa in the past but I have little, if any, faith left.

His decisions at key times in past month have been baffling. Looking for a 1-0 or appearing happy with a draw. Far too cautious to win a Premiiership. Handed the baton to the Manc's big time in last few months and heaped pressure on his own team by his tactics.

I really don't know how we move on from here. Bad, bad times from such a strong first half of season.

Gerrard off   That must have given Wigan such a lift. Alonso left on bench, esp when you looking to hold the ball and a 1-0.

Gutted.

In Rafe we trust......i think not anymore.

My faith is slippin also, but I satill keep the faith due to the fantastic position we are in this season. The fact that it could have been so much better is the gutting part.

He is a tad conservative, but some posters on here would like to start with Reina and 10 forwards. A look through the points dropped and in reality the only games where we didn't push forward in droves was Stoke, Arsenal and Everton.

Fantastic position 

A draw with Chelsea over the weekend and a Villa win, will put us to 4th.

Two points off the top going into February is very good, maybe not fantastic. I am sure you would have grabbed that before the start of the season.

At the start of the season i would have hoped for the team to evolve a bit more, and it probably would not have been good enough to win the league, but a marked improvement in particular the team playing more offensively, but i dont think that can ever come with Benitez as manager. United and Chelsea will have improved again next year you would think, if Wenger is given the funds Arsenal wont be far away. We seem as far away as ever.

Are we though?
In terms of the players apart from one or two, I think we are as good as any of the Top 4
IMHO there is only one person to blame

[bingobus]

How are we looking for Alonso on to hold the ball and then say we needed to ppush forward.

Disappointment aside I thought we played well tonight and we pushed forward in search of the second. Not enough chance creatin, but we were driving forward in droves.

Alonso will control midfield, move ball early, switch play, give you a platform, keep tempo high. Second half this was draining away, Benayoun was still causing problems (and I'm not a fan), yet he got taken off. Alonso covers more ground than any other Liverpool player. To me Rafas subs are planned before a game. On form, only Torres should have been pulled tonight.

In other games at nil nil, Keane has been left on bench for Lucas to come on?? That isn't a match winning move. We aren't looking for 10 forwards but we what a chance. We don't need 5 midfielders and full backs who don't cross the half way line unless they get a green card. Insua bombed forward and has been missed. Dossena, looked a different player at weekend and is bombed out of team. Hard to justify some of his decisions.

Can we win the league? Of Course, best position we've ever been in years.

Will we win the league? Not a chance, I'm afraid. Thats the reality.

[EC Unique]

Must be heading for some sort of record with the amount of draws?

[Armamike]

If most of us are being honest, we know that the other lot will push ahead now till the end of the season, Ferguson doesn't do charity. Benitez is more than a tad cautious but the bottom line imo is the lack of quality in certain positions which is meaning that teams aren't being put away. Too much reliance on the likes of Gerard for goals when other midfielders and forwards should be chipping in. Lack of quality on the wings and a couple of strikers in Keane and Kuyt who don't score enough.  Add in the fact that midfielders like Alonso and Mascherano don't get forward enough but sit back, then it's not a great cocktail for scoring goals and killing off lesser sides, rather than handing them a point.  

[GalwayBayBoy]

Wonder what the odds on a 1-1 draw for Sunday are?

[The Real Laoislad]

If most of us are being honest, we know that the other lot will push ahead now till the end of the season, Ferguson doesn't do charity. Benitez is more than a tad cautious but the bottom line imo is the lack of quality in certain positions which is meaning that teams aren't being put away. Too much reliance on the likes of Gerard for goals when other midfielders and forwards should be chipping in. Lack of quality on the wings and a couple of strikers in Keane and Kuyt who don't score enough.  Add in the fact that midfielders like Alonso and Mascherano don't get forward enough but sit back, then it's not a great cocktail for scoring goals and killing off lesser sides, rather than handing them a point.  

So is it the players or the way they are being asked to play ?
I believe its the latter

[brokencrossbar1]

It is a very sorry situation to be in.  When you are 2 points off the top at the end of january you should feel confident, but there is nothing but gloom and ill feeling surrounding the team and club.  From a position of strenght they have let Man Utd into it.  Even allowing for United's good run Liverpool still should be clear by at least 8 points at this stage.  2 points dropped tonight and 6 against the teams AZ mentions and 2 last week against Everton.  That is 10 f**king points that have ben lost that should not have been lost.  The players must take responsiblity as well, but since Rafa went on his little tirade about Fergie things have slipped badly.

I have backed him over and over, but perhaps it is time to look at aa different approach.  if the new suitors pony up the money that they are supposed to have, I can't see them sticking with him, unless he pulls a rabbit out this year.  I fear he will not be able to.

In Rafa we don't really trust anymore.

[Minder]

Wonder what the odds on a 1-1 draw for Sunday are?

I wouldnt be surprised if we beat Chelsea on Sunday then lose away to Portsmouth in the league.

[The Real Laoislad]

Wonder what the odds on a 1-1 draw for Sunday are?

I wouldnt be surprised if we beat Chelsea on Sunday then lose away to Portsmouth in the league.

Na Pompy won't beat us,they will get a draw though 

[AZOffaly]

I think it's both Laoislad, with the emphasis on the latter. I have said it so often that corn's eyes probably bleed looking at it, but the likes of Kuyt, Benayoun, Lucas etc etc just give you little or nothing in terms of creativity.

However, even with them, if Rafa encouraged a possession, pass and move type game, Liverpool would be much better to watch, and in terms of getting wins instead of draws.

I'd like some better quality in the wide positions, but even with the lads that are there, feck sake, let them play when they have the ball. Rafa is spot on in terms of when Liverpool don't have the ball, but you nearly think he's more comfortable when we give it away so that we can get back to working hard and 'pressing' the opposition into mistakes. Liverpools most creative player is the opposition midfielder who is pressured into presenting Gerrard or Torres with a chance!

[corn02]

Right.

Ever since he took over and I read 'A season on the Brink' I have been a massive Benitez fan, defending him to the hilt. Tonight is the first time I have to question him.

I don't think he done too much wrong tonight bar taking off Gerrard. If you saw the match you would realise El Nino was very poor.

But as GBB says, his head isn't there at the moment. I don't know what is happening behind the scnens but he will leave in the summer. People like to have a go at him, they criticise him for not playing Keanen even though he has averaged 78 minutes this season, and has been very poor. People say he is too conservative but a look through United's stats shows that Ferguson has also took off attacking players for more conservative when leading narrowly. (Villa, Middlesborough and Wigan).

But things are not right and he is feeling the strain. Gerrard should have stayed on the field and perhaps Skrtl sacrificed for the final few minutes. Wigan hitting the bar probably shows that can be risky too.

I think if Rafa goes we will be set back another few years. People say he is not good enough to win the Premier League, I disagree. A stupiud tackle, bad marking etc can't really be levelled at the manager. Indivisual errors have cost us dearly. But my belief that he can win it is dwindling, I'll admit that.

The thing is, our performances this year has been poor. And while people say we are in this position only because United had a poor start is fair enough, but it means United went through a spell like this as well.

But he is too conservative-- Stoke springs to mind. I remember earlier in the season, Wigan  or Boro, I thinkwe had four strikers on the pitch at the end and we won it, looks impossible that he would repeat that.

Take a step back and we are in a very good position. Before the season started I think most claimed to be in the title race would be a brilliant achievement this season. We are two off top and into the latter stages of Europe - not bad. The thing is, we relaistically could have been in  a much better position.

It really is season on a brink 2 for Rafa. I'll support the manager while he is in charge, but if things don't buck up he will lose the support that has been very loyal to him to be fair.

Everyone on here knows what I think about Kuyt and I am certainly on my lonesome by the sounds of things. I am not foolish enough to suggest he has been brilliant lately, he hasn't. But when you come on here and read about him"making people vomit" it makes me vomit. He was on for a coupel of minutes and handled the ball in the box - ok mistake, but players make mistakes. He played an absolutely superb ball but nobody mentioned that.

It is just indicative of Liverpool fans that some players won;t get a fair deal. Torres was pretty horrible tonight, but there will be little mention of that, Gerrad was very poor in the second, won;t hear much about that. Kuyt has 10 minutes when he does one bad thing and one brilliant thing and people are making comments like that. I defend him too much, but some of the stick he gets is crazy.

I say I have seen 99% of our games this year and there have been very few were we have played well. Cheslsea, United, West Brom and Bolton are the stand-out games. We have actually played decent in some of the games we played poorly. I thought we were good tonight, verygood at Spurs, good against Hull, Stoke at home.

The frustraion is growing in me, 19 looks miles off nopw, but there is still a lot of ball top be played yet so who knows?

I think it is crazy when peopled eclare us out of the race with things so close and so much games left, but it is looking unlikely going on past form.

After the match tonight the first thing someone said to me was, Rafas rant is costing us. Ok, I was happy enough at the time, but it doesn;t look good tonight. But to suggest Lucas was thinking about it when he made that tacjkle, or Skrtl was thinking about it when he was tracking Cahill is a bit crazy for me. But who knoiws? It may have impacted the players.

Overall things could not be more disappointing, there was a chance there and Rafa needs to turn things around. As I say I like him and I will support him until he goes, but his stock value is dropping.

[Doogie Browser]

Tonight has signalled a major mood shift on this thread, normally staunch Rafa defenders are now questioning his tactics and wisdom.  Does seem bizarre that he took off Gerrard, the man is usually their 'go to' player when they need something and he is on the bench.
From a Villa point of view I am delighted, Van Persie's late goal has kept Arsenal and Everton at arms length for now.  Chelsea v Liverpool for a draw on Sunday now please.  

[Over the Bar]

As an outsider it seems that Gerrard can probably take as much, if not more credit that Benitez for you being top of the league until after Christmas.

[AZOffaly]

Overall things could not be more disappointing, there was a chance there and Rafa needs to turn things around. As I say I like him and I will support him until he goes, but his stock value is dropping.

I have time for him too, but I think he is just wired that way, and he's not going to change.

I will support any man who puts on the Liverpool jersey, or who is involved with the team. That doesn't mean I suspend my option to criticise if they are bad, or if I think silly things are being done. It's only my opinion, I doubt Rafa gives a spanish shite, but I don't think he can or will make the required changes in his attitude for Liverpool to win a title. Cups, yes, it's obvious why. English titles, nope, I don't think so.