County by County performance in qualifiers era

[Zulu]

Best teams usually win comoetitions.
Dublin and Kerry won most All Ireland's before 2001 also.
Do we bring in handicaps or bar Dublin and Kerry?
What will the mythical "open draw" do?
Bring us back to the days of 20 point margins in AI semi finals?
Do we make all the big teams play each other in Round 1 and so on so that Carlow can get to the AI Final?

That's a possibility, yes. What incentive do the likes of Carlow have with the current format? Why would they even bother turning up?

Its a Championship - best teams get to closing stages and best team of them win it.
Bad teams will never make the closing stages unless you have some artificial weighting in their favour.
Then it's not a Championship it's a Charity.

You sound like Pauric Duffy. We want to see the best teams in the final... Why?

The whole ethos of the GAA is about participation. Getting people playing and involved, and supporting their local teams. It's not about watching Kerry and Dublin winning All Irelands, year in year out.

The c'ship needs to keep stronger teams on their toes, not cruising to an AI semi before having a tough match. The c'ship is dull and boring. We need big matches all the way through. We need a Carlow and Antrim given every chance to get to a semi or final. Think what a run to that stage would do for football in those counties. As noted earlier, Antrim fans outnumbered Tyrone in 09.

Personally I'd rather watch a Sligo, Louth, Wicklow in an AI semi than Mayo Kerry again for the 400th time. People remember Clare, Leitrim, Offaly, Fermanagh in semis. Current format is elitist and driving 20 odd counties away from the game. Open draw is the only way

Carlow and Antrim are given every chance to win, they just aren't good enough to take it. While I agree we should have an open draw it should be seeded so that we don't end up with teams not earning their place in the final stages of the competition. Getting to an All Ireland semi final would do nothing for football in Carlow or Antrim if it was only because they ended up avoiding all half decent teams until then.

The system should reward excellence but also give teams who are willing to work hard and get their structures right a pathway to improve. IC football is the elite level so it should be dog eat dog.

So it's ok for Kerry or Dublin to meet weaker teams to get to a semi/final, but not ok for the likes of Carlow or Antrim?

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that all 32 teams should play in a competition format that is equal. If my team are very weak and your team very strong we both should have the same number of games and the same opportunity to progress based on our abilities and nothing else. My team shouldn't get any advantages through the competition format simply because we are weak. If the luck of the draw provides us with an easier path some year that's fine but the system shouldn't facilitate it just because we are weak.

But doesnt a seeded open draw contradict your idea of a "competition format that is equal"?

On the contrary. I'm saying you should be seeded based on league performance. That means if Carlow or Antrim work hard and win their leagues then too can get a better seed. Now of course it's harder for Carlow to produce a good team than Dublin or Mayo but unless you want to change the county system then there is little we can do about that. Monaghan, Cavan, Tipperary, Roscommon are proof you can get to division 1 or 2 with a relatively small playing base.

[Zulu]

You must have needed plenty of porter on you to say Carlow and Antrim have the same chance as the Dublin Conglomerate with a straight face.

You always had a way with words, Syf! 
Given that the said Dublin Conglomerate's population equals that of a total of 22 other counties and that GDA funding, going by the infographic on a recent thread was €274 for Dublin, while others, say Galway, got just €15, we are supposed to accept that all counties are being treated equally.  In other words, if Carlow or Antrim aren't winning All Irelands regularly, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Antrim has a massive population. They are just incompetent in the development of Gaelic Games.

Exactly Itchy. We've come to expect nonsense from Syferus but you're usually more sensible Lar. Carlow like, I dunno, Carlisle Utd in soccer, have the same path to Sam as Dublin have or Chelsea have to the league in England. Many other things aren't equal but the path is and that's all a competition structure should provide. The bizarre thing is that the competition structure in the English premiership is fairer to the weaker teams than the All Ireland is.

Bedad, Zulu, I used to think the same 'bout you! Right now, I'm off to wet the whistle and fair dues to Ireland.  But before I sign off and  celebrate a famous victory, I'll ask you a quick question..
Go back to what Itchy said and see if you find something odd therein. Hint: Look here.
"Antrim has a massive population..." See anything incongruous there?
Chat ya tomorrow, for now, yeeeehaaaaw!

Lar, Mayo have advantages over Carlow too. We are talking about competition formats here. Lots of counties have unfair advantages in both money and numbers, Mayo being one of the main ones. However, our competitions shouldn't punish Mayo, Kerry or Dublin for that. Nor should it give unfair advantages to Carlow, Leitrim or Longford because they are smaller or less well funded. Do you disagree?

[seafoid]

Success has been very concentrated if you take out Galway and Armagh.

2 single team wins and the rest split between 3 counties

NZ rugby heads need to get involved with Mayo. The GAA can pay for it. How to close

Does puke football favour the teams with the biggest resources ?

[Lar Naparka]

You must have needed plenty of porter on you to say Carlow and Antrim have the same chance as the Dublin Conglomerate with a straight face.

You always had a way with words, Syf! 
Given that the said Dublin Conglomerate's population equals that of a total of 22 other counties and that GDA funding, going by the infographic on a recent thread was €274 for Dublin, while others, say Galway, got just €15, we are supposed to accept that all counties are being treated equally.  In other words, if Carlow or Antrim aren't winning All Irelands regularly, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Antrim has a massive population. They are just incompetent in the development of Gaelic Games.

Exactly Itchy. We've come to expect nonsense from Syferus but you're usually more sensible Lar. Carlow like, I dunno, Carlisle Utd in soccer, have the same path to Sam as Dublin have or Chelsea have to the league in England. Many other things aren't equal but the path is and that's all a competition structure should provide. The bizarre thing is that the competition structure in the English premiership is fairer to the weaker teams than the All Ireland is.

Bedad, Zulu, I used to think the same 'bout you! Right now, I'm off to wet the whistle and fair dues to Ireland.  But before I sign off and  celebrate a famous victory, I'll ask you a quick question..
Go back to what Itchy said and see if you find something odd therein. Hint: Look here.
"Antrim has a massive population..." See anything incongruous there?
Chat ya tomorrow, for now, yeeeehaaaaw!

Lar, Mayo have advantages over Carlow too. We are talking about competition formats here. Lots of counties have unfair advantages in both money and numbers, Mayo being one of the main ones. However, our competitions shouldn't punish Mayo, Kerry or Dublin for that. Nor should it give unfair advantages to Carlow, Leitrim or Longford because they are smaller or less well funded. Do you disagree?

We've been over this ground before and there's precious little merit in rehashing old arguments but Scratchy's assertion that since Antrim has a massive population, it should surely follow that Antrim GAA are to be blamed for the county's lack of success cannot be allowed to pass unchallenged.
I don't mind him pointing out that because a) Antrim has a massive population and b)  it doesn't have much (GAA) success because "They are just incompetent in the development of Gaelic Games."
FFS, a large majority of the people in Antrim have no interest in Gaelic games of any sort and, in fact, many will go out of their way to hinder the GAA in every possible way.  How could anyone expect Antrim to compete with the likes of Dublin at any level?
If you follow Itchy's line of logic, you would have to say that London should be steamrolling all who get in the way.
I've no problem with Jim Gavin or his team; no other manager or side would behave differently if the were lucky enough to find themselves in Dublin's position.
But the disproportionate funding for games development is another matter.  €274 for registered players in Dublin versus €15 for each player in Galway can't be justified on any grounds. IMHO, it's a case of trying to fit lefthand feet into righthand shoes for those who attempt to justify Dublin's overwhelming superiority in money, manpower and resources viz a viz every other county in the land.
And yes, I do agree with you that the present system is not proving fit for purpose and should be radically overhauled but that's an issue for the future.
Right now, the fact that managers are reporting that some players they approached have refused to turn out for their counties, should be the cause of deep concern for  the entire Association as more and more players feel there is no point in trying to compete with vastly superior odds.
Believe me, there may be trouble ahead....

[Syferus]

You're speaking some sense there, young Lar.

[Zulu]

You must have needed plenty of porter on you to say Carlow and Antrim have the same chance as the Dublin Conglomerate with a straight face.

You always had a way with words, Syf! 
Given that the said Dublin Conglomerate's population equals that of a total of 22 other counties and that GDA funding, going by the infographic on a recent thread was €274 for Dublin, while others, say Galway, got just €15, we are supposed to accept that all counties are being treated equally.  In other words, if Carlow or Antrim aren't winning All Irelands regularly, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Antrim has a massive population. They are just incompetent in the development of Gaelic Games.

Exactly Itchy. We've come to expect nonsense from Syferus but you're usually more sensible Lar. Carlow like, I dunno, Carlisle Utd in soccer, have the same path to Sam as Dublin have or Chelsea have to the league in England. Many other things aren't equal but the path is and that's all a competition structure should provide. The bizarre thing is that the competition structure in the English premiership is fairer to the weaker teams than the All Ireland is.

Bedad, Zulu, I used to think the same 'bout you! Right now, I'm off to wet the whistle and fair dues to Ireland.  But before I sign off and  celebrate a famous victory, I'll ask you a quick question..
Go back to what Itchy said and see if you find something odd therein. Hint: Look here.
"Antrim has a massive population..." See anything incongruous there?
Chat ya tomorrow, for now, yeeeehaaaaw!

Lar, Mayo have advantages over Carlow too. We are talking about competition formats here. Lots of counties have unfair advantages in both money and numbers, Mayo being one of the main ones. However, our competitions shouldn't punish Mayo, Kerry or Dublin for that. Nor should it give unfair advantages to Carlow, Leitrim or Longford because they are smaller or less well funded. Do you disagree?

We've been over this ground before and there's precious little merit in rehashing old arguments but Scratchy's assertion that since Antrim has a massive population, it should surely follow that Antrim GAA are to be blamed for the county's lack of success cannot be allowed to pass unchallenged.
I don't mind him pointing out that because a) Antrim has a massive population and b)  it doesn't have much (GAA) success because "They are just incompetent in the development of Gaelic Games."
FFS, a large majority of the people in Antrim have no interest in Gaelic games of any sort and, in fact, many will go out of their way to hinder the GAA in every possible way.  How could anyone expect Antrim to compete with the likes of Dublin at any level?
If you follow Itchy's line of logic, you would have to say that London should be steamrolling all who get in the way.
I've no problem with Jim Gavin or his team; no other manager or side would behave differently if the were lucky enough to find themselves in Dublin's position.
But the disproportionate funding for games development is another matter.  €274 for registered players in Dublin versus €15 for each player in Galway can't be justified on any grounds. IMHO, it's a case of trying to fit lefthand feet into righthand shoes for those who attempt to justify Dublin's overwhelming superiority in money, manpower and resources viz a viz every other county in the land.
And yes, I do agree with you that the present system is not proving fit for purpose and should be radically overhauled but that's an issue for the future.
Right now, the fact that managers are reporting that some players they approached have refused to turn out for their counties, should be the cause of deep concern for  the entire Association as more and more players feel there is no point in trying to compete with vastly superior odds.
Believe me, there may be trouble ahead....

Lar, that's all well and good but it's not the point here. Some posters suggested that the likes of Carlow or Antrim should be given an easier path to winning an All Ireland because they aren't strong which I disagree with. A competition format should simply be fair to all and let the best team win. Population and funding have nothing to do with whether a competition format should be skewed to favour weaker teams.

Antrim, despite the issues they have, should be stronger than they are and have only themselves to blame. If they get their house in order I'm sure increased funding will be available to them but that's a different discussion.

[Lar Naparka]

You must have needed plenty of porter on you to say Carlow and Antrim have the same chance as the Dublin Conglomerate with a straight face.

You always had a way with words, Syf! 
Given that the said Dublin Conglomerate's population equals that of a total of 22 other counties and that GDA funding, going by the infographic on a recent thread was €274 for Dublin, while others, say Galway, got just €15, we are supposed to accept that all counties are being treated equally.  In other words, if Carlow or Antrim aren't winning All Irelands regularly, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Antrim has a massive population. They are just incompetent in the development of Gaelic Games.

Exactly Itchy. We've come to expect nonsense from Syferus but you're usually more sensible Lar. Carlow like, I dunno, Carlisle Utd in soccer, have the same path to Sam as Dublin have or Chelsea have to the league in England. Many other things aren't equal but the path is and that's all a competition structure should provide. The bizarre thing is that the competition structure in the English premiership is fairer to the weaker teams than the All Ireland is.

Bedad, Zulu, I used to think the same 'bout you! Right now, I'm off to wet the whistle and fair dues to Ireland.  But before I sign off and  celebrate a famous victory, I'll ask you a quick question..
Go back to what Itchy said and see if you find something odd therein. Hint: Look here.
"Antrim has a massive population..." See anything incongruous there?
Chat ya tomorrow, for now, yeeeehaaaaw!

Lar, Mayo have advantages over Carlow too. We are talking about competition formats here. Lots of counties have unfair advantages in both money and numbers, Mayo being one of the main ones. However, our competitions shouldn't punish Mayo, Kerry or Dublin for that. Nor should it give unfair advantages to Carlow, Leitrim or Longford because they are smaller or less well funded. Do you disagree?

We've been over this ground before and there's precious little merit in rehashing old arguments but Scratchy's assertion that since Antrim has a massive population, it should surely follow that Antrim GAA are to be blamed for the county's lack of success cannot be allowed to pass unchallenged.
I don't mind him pointing out that because a) Antrim has a massive population and b)  it doesn't have much (GAA) success because "They are just incompetent in the development of Gaelic Games."
FFS, a large majority of the people in Antrim have no interest in Gaelic games of any sort and, in fact, many will go out of their way to hinder the GAA in every possible way.  How could anyone expect Antrim to compete with the likes of Dublin at any level?
If you follow Itchy's line of logic, you would have to say that London should be steamrolling all who get in the way.
I've no problem with Jim Gavin or his team; no other manager or side would behave differently if the were lucky enough to find themselves in Dublin's position.
But the disproportionate funding for games development is another matter.  €274 for registered players in Dublin versus €15 for each player in Galway can't be justified on any grounds. IMHO, it's a case of trying to fit lefthand feet into righthand shoes for those who attempt to justify Dublin's overwhelming superiority in money, manpower and resources viz a viz every other county in the land.
And yes, I do agree with you that the present system is not proving fit for purpose and should be radically overhauled but that's an issue for the future.
Right now, the fact that managers are reporting that some players they approached have refused to turn out for their counties, should be the cause of deep concern for  the entire Association as more and more players feel there is no point in trying to compete with vastly superior odds.
Believe me, there may be trouble ahead....

Lar, that's all well and good but it's not the point here. Some posters suggested that the likes of Carlow or Antrim should be given an easier path to winning an All Ireland because they aren't strong which I disagree with. A competition format should simply be fair to all and let the best team win. Population and funding have nothing to do with whether a competition format should be skewed to favour weaker teams.

Antrim, despite the issues they have, should be stronger than they are and have only themselves to blame. If they get their house in order I'm sure increased funding will be available to them but that's a different discussion.

Well, I'm not one of them.
But we are looking at the Dubs v the Rest controversy from different angles. You will find that most board members who take issue with Dublin's dominance are complaining about the amount of development money going to Dublin at the expense of the rest of the counties. That's handicapping of a different sort as it helps to widen the divide between Dublin and the chasing pack.
I also agree that issues of population and funding should not be used in any way to skew results in any direction but it doesn't mean that these factors are of no importance whatever. 
Anyway, no point in rehashing old grievances once again.
Instead, here's a few points for you to consider..
Is Dublin's present dominance good for the game in the long run and are superclubs, like Vincents, Ballyboden etc. the best way to get the general public involved in GAA affairs? A case of a macro approach or a micro one.
My answer in both instances is no; quite the opposite in fact. With Dublin having the population of 21 other counties, the GAA is grossly underrepresented with just one team to cover them all.
Supposing, just supposing the said 21 counties decided to amalgamate, what would the immediate outcome be?
For starters, it would cause irreparable damage to the Association across the entire country. Twenty one intercounty sides would disappear overnight to be replaced by one crack outfit with some counties having no representation at all. All accompanying activities, club competitions and the likes, would go the same route and the vast majority of small, localised clubs would go belly up without a bother, leading to a cataclysmic fall off in the numbers taking an active interest in GAA affairs.
Superclubs are great at attracting members at the juvenile end of the scale but the vast majority of those kids will have to drop out of active participation as the age levels go up and the number of teams catered for decrease until there is only one at the very top.
The players from smaller, more intimate clubs may, by and large,  not be as talented as those from the likes of those clubs that can field more kids than some entire counties but this elitism comes at a price.
Compare Dublin with Mayo for a moment and you will see what I mean.
Dublin has ten times the population of Mayo and with it all the advantages that comes with such overwhelming numbers.
According to ballinaman's infographic, Dublin gets many times the amount allocated to Mayo for each registered player's development. (Something like €274 to €22 or thereabouts.)
Now, nearing all this in mind, the state of the GAA in Dublin should be in a far healthier state than it is in Mayo; ie. at the very least, it should have ten times the playing numbers that Mayo has.
Right??
Well, wrong is the correct answer here.
Dublin has only four times  the number of that players that Mayo has  and that can only mean that the rate at which kids drop out of Gaelic participation in Dublin is far higher than it is in Mayo or indeed most other counties.
Dublin's hold on the hearts and minds of the county's residents is far more tenuous that is the case in Mayo.

[BennyCake]

Lar, it's funny you mention superclubs. Take the superclubs, those that are as dedicated and professional as county sides that have sprung up. And in counties that aren't doing much at inter county level. The likes of Slaughtneil, Kilcoo, St Galls, St Brigids, Ballinderry and Crossmaglen. Rural clubs, dominating their c'ships.

People might wonder why there's not more Cross men with Armagh, Kilcoo Down etc. A lot of those players are probably county level but you gotta wonder why they don't want to play county. I think it's the state of the fixture calendar along with the c'ship structures that gives their county little chance of success. Factor in the time, commitment, travel times etc and a lot of men opt out. Also, they figure they'd be better off at their clubs, where they have good chance of success, instead of sitting warming the county bench and playing no football.

[Jinxy]

Lar, it's funny you mention superclubs. Take the superclubs, those that are as dedicated and professional as county sides that have sprung up. And in counties that aren't doing much at inter county level. The likes of Slaughtneil, Kilcoo, St Galls, St Brigids, Ballinderry and Crossmaglen. Rural clubs, dominating their c'ships.

People might wonder why there's not more Cross men with Armagh, Kilcoo Down etc. A lot of those players are probably county level but you gotta wonder why they don't want to play county. I think it's the state of the fixture calendar along with the c'ship structures that gives their county little chance of success. Factor in the time, commitment, travel times etc and a lot of men opt out. Also, they figure they'd be better off at their clubs, where they have good chance of success, instead of sitting warming the county bench and playing no football.

They're not super clubs.
Winning things doesn't make you a super club, it's the size of the operation we're talking about.
How many teams to the likes of Kilcoo and Slaughtneil field every weekend?

[seafoid]

Lar, it's funny you mention superclubs. Take the superclubs, those that are as dedicated and professional as county sides that have sprung up. And in counties that aren't doing much at inter county level. The likes of Slaughtneil, Kilcoo, St Galls, St Brigids, Ballinderry and Crossmaglen. Rural clubs, dominating their c'ships.

People might wonder why there's not more Cross men with Armagh, Kilcoo Down etc. A lot of those players are probably county level but you gotta wonder why they don't want to play county. I think it's the state of the fixture calendar along with the c'ship structures that gives their county little chance of success. Factor in the time, commitment, travel times etc and a lot of men opt out. Also, they figure they'd be better off at their clubs, where they have good chance of success, instead of sitting warming the county bench and playing no football.

Having one cliub dominate is bad news for the county team imo

[BennyCake]

Lar, it's funny you mention superclubs. Take the superclubs, those that are as dedicated and professional as county sides that have sprung up. And in counties that aren't doing much at inter county level. The likes of Slaughtneil, Kilcoo, St Galls, St Brigids, Ballinderry and Crossmaglen. Rural clubs, dominating their c'ships.

People might wonder why there's not more Cross men with Armagh, Kilcoo Down etc. A lot of those players are probably county level but you gotta wonder why they don't want to play county. I think it's the state of the fixture calendar along with the c'ship structures that gives their county little chance of success. Factor in the time, commitment, travel times etc and a lot of men opt out. Also, they figure they'd be better off at their clubs, where they have good chance of success, instead of sitting warming the county bench and playing no football.

They're not super clubs.
Winning things doesn't make you a super club, it's the size of the operation we're talking about.
How many teams to the likes of Kilcoo and Slaughtneil field every weekend?

They're dominating their club c'ships and made a mark on provincial stage. Antrim football has done little in years, nor has Down really or Derry. They're performing more than their respective county teams. You have to wonder why they're not corrolating.

[Jinxy]

During the 90's Éire Óg from Carlow were one of the best club sides in the country.
However, during that period a lot of their players would have viewed playing for the county team as a significant step down.
I think it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy that players will run through a brick wall if they feel they have a chance of winning something, whereas the commitment levels drop off significantly if they feel there's no chance of winning anything.
Hence, you can have clubs from 'weaker' counties that are very competitive at provincial level, but the starting point for all that is 'Can you win your own county championship?'
Winning is a habit, I suppose, but as the saying goes, 'Twas ever thus'.

[seafoid]

During the 90's Éire Óg from Carlow were one of the best club sides in the country.
However, during that period a lot of their players would have viewed playing for the county team as a significant step down.
I think it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy that players will run through a brick wall if they feel they have a chance of winning something, whereas the commitment levels drop off significantly if they feel there's no chance of winning anything.
Hence, you can have clubs from 'weaker' counties that are very competitive at provincial level, but the starting point for all that is 'Can you win your own county championship?'
Winning is a habit, I suppose, but as the saying goes, 'Twas ever thus'.

Club dynamics are different. It often happens that there is a core of good under 12s who win everything underage and then graduate to senior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk_kZspsp1o

They are used to winning and have a good few years of winning by age 21.

County is faster and you need good lads from different clubs and there is no shared history going back to u12 .
It is very hard to blend in young winners with old losers.