Marie Stopes abortion clinic opens in Belfast

[Puckoon]

Obviously the world already believes that this Windsor baby is much more important than the 100 babies that just got aborted while you read this......

Yeah, thats just nonsense. C-.

[trileacman]

All this talk about Marie Stopes is bad etc. etc.

I thought the law states that they are not allowed to perform an abortion unless the mother's life or mental health is at serious risk? Is the creation of this clinic now going to start a stampede of abortions in Northern Ireland?

Personally I don't agree with abortion in the sense that a woman makes a mistake and doesn't want to live with it.

Here it takes two to tango, luckily for us men we can run out on the responsibility unlike the women. All that alot of these women want is to follow the actions of their "partners" and find a way out of raising a kid. I'm not involved either way in this debate but you can't just label women as the only ones making a mistake here.

Fair enough and I take your point. I'm not trying to defend any 'deadbeat' Dads in any shape or form. I believe that if you make a mistake then you have to accept the consequences and that goes for both parties involved.

I knew you probably didn't mean it like that but I just wanted to make that point.

[The Iceman]

Obviously the world already believes that this Windsor baby is much more important than the 100 babies that just got aborted while you read this......

Yeah, thats just nonsense. C-.

why is it just nonsense?
In many arguments from other folks on the opposite side - its just a fetus, a collection of cells
the media have already announced this "fetus" is 3rd in line to the throne.....

[Onion Bag]

Seen a tv show one night where a young 15 year old girl was violently raped in America and became pregnant as a result. With the consent of her parents she had an abortion. I wouldn't call myself pro-abortion but if this was my daughter I think I would have to agree with the parents here,
Any opinions on a situation like this?

[Main Street]

Seen a tv show one night where a young 15 year old girl was violently raped in America and became pregnant as a result. With the consent of her parents she had an abortion. I wouldn't call myself pro-abortion but if this was my daughter I think I would have to agree with the parents here,
Any opinions on a situation like this?

Whatever opinions/beliefs you have on a decision made in a situation like that, why should they have an impact on the decision whether to terminate or not terminate the pregnancy?

Ludermor earlier posted an interesting quote from a  Republican US politician called Mourdock  "I've struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize that life is that gift from God," "And, I think, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen." Mr Mourdock, described his position on abortion as believing that "life begins at conception,".


If we are to understand this attitude,  once there is life, then that's what God intended to happen regardless of the circumstances of conception.  Mourdock's argument is twofold.
A. there is life
B. God's intention.

Yes there is life, once there is conception, a new human life is in process. Therefore in his opinion a decision taken to end that life is regarded as murder. This big question has been the subject of the great legal debates in constitutional law in the US.
It's only murder if the law say so. Murder is defined by law.
The 'God's intention' part  is an example of extreme religious dogma being selective about what God supposedly intends.
If a person is to believe that God intended the life, even in the horrible circumstances of rape, then does that person not believe God intended the
rape which caused the conception?  and does that person not believe that God intended a decision taken to  terminate the pregnancy?
What we have is some person making arbitrary judgements over God's intentions, deciding between what God intended and what God didn't intend.
Possibly what we have here is a person having a duality, a split personality, a belief in God and a belief in the Devil.
and some great interpreter exists on the planet to discriminate between what God intends and what the Devil intends.

Is this not a form of madness?

[screenexile]

Seen a tv show one night where a young 15 year old girl was violently raped in America and became pregnant as a result. With the consent of her parents she had an abortion. I wouldn't call myself pro-abortion but if this was my daughter I think I would have to agree with the parents here,
Any opinions on a situation like this?

Whatever opinions/beliefs you have on a decision made in a situation like that, why should they have an impact on the decision whether to terminate or not terminate the pregnancy?

Ludermor earlier posted an interesting quote from a  Republican US politician called Mourdock  "I've struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize that life is that gift from God," "And, I think, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen." Mr Mourdock, described his position on abortion as believing that "life begins at conception,".


If we are to understand this attitude,  once there is life, then that's what God intended to happen regardless of the circumstances of conception.  Mourdock's argument is twofold.
A. there is life
B. God's intention.

Yes there is life, once there is conception, a new human life is in process. Therefore in his opinion a decision taken to end that life is regarded as murder. This big question has been the subject of the great legal debates in constitutional law in the US.
It's only murder if the law say so. Murder is defined by law.
The 'God's intention' part  is an example of extreme religious dogma being selective about what God supposedly intends.
If a person is to believe that God intended the life, even in the horrible circumstances of rape, then does that person not believe God intended the
rape which caused the conception?  and does that person not believe that God intended a decision taken to  terminate the pregnancy?
What we have is some person making arbitrary judgements over God's intentions, deciding between what God intended and what God didn't intend.
Possibly what we have here is a person having a duality, a split personality, a belief in God and a belief in the Devil.
and some great interpreter exists on the planet to discriminate between what God intends and what the Devil intends.

Is this not a form of madness?

That's the thing about the abortion row. Do you believe in God or not? If you have a strong Christian faith abortion is a complete no no. If you're an atheist then there really are no consequences to abortion.

[The Iceman]

Seen a tv show one night where a young 15 year old girl was violently raped in America and became pregnant as a result. With the consent of her parents she had an abortion. I wouldn't call myself pro-abortion but if this was my daughter I think I would have to agree with the parents here,
Any opinions on a situation like this?

I have a friend who was violently raped in Africa and became pregnant with an obviously black child. She originally chose to put the child up for adoption then when the baby was born decided to keep it and couldn't be happier. You never really know how you will feel about something like this until it happens - but there is always options.

[Puckoon]

Obviously the world already believes that this Windsor baby is much more important than the 100 babies that just got aborted while you read this......

Yeah, thats just nonsense. C-.

why is it just nonsense?
the media have already announced this "fetus" is 3rd in line to the throne.....

The media article does not equate to "the world already believes".

[tyssam5]

Seen a tv show one night where a young 15 year old girl was violently raped in America and became pregnant as a result. With the consent of her parents she had an abortion. I wouldn't call myself pro-abortion but if this was my daughter I think I would have to agree with the parents here,
Any opinions on a situation like this?

I have a friend who was violently raped in Africa and became pregnant with an obviously black child. She originally chose to put the child up for adoption then when the baby was born decided to keep it and couldn't be happier. You never really know how you will feel about something like this until it happens - but there is always options.

Good that it worked out like that. If she'd felt a lot differently and wanted to terminate but that was illegal, so she killed herself instead that would have been less good.

[Main Street]

Afaiu,
those women who are either, forced due to pressure of fundamentalists (Koran/ Bible),  or just voluntarily want to have their baby as mother nature intended, will not visit the Marie Stopes clinic, will never darken that door.

And those who do want to have their pregnancy terminated, will consult, make their appointment to visit the Marie Stopes clinic and terminate the pregnancy.
Where exactly is the problem with this arrangement?

Afaiu, previously, women had to travel to the real UK, in order to have terminations.

[The Iceman]

Obviously the world already believes that this Windsor baby is much more important than the 100 babies that just got aborted while you read this......

Yeah, thats just nonsense. C-.

why is it just nonsense?
the media have already announced this "fetus" is 3rd in line to the throne.....

The media article does not equate to "the world already believes".

Well most news sites I've visited over here are covering the story, FB is covered in posts about it and the media in UK and Ireland seem to be lapping it up. I'm sorry my sweeping terminology was too sweeping for you My point was this baby has already been given more importance than most and because it is important - its a baby and not a collection of cells.....

[Maguire01]

Our politicians, progressive as ever. Difficult to see this not passing, given the nature of our elected representatives.


'Abortions only via NHS' law change bid by two MLAs

Two Northern Ireland assembly members are attempting to change the law to make it illegal to perform an abortion outside the NHS.

The DUP's Paul Givan and the SDLP's Alban Maginness have unveiled a joint amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill.

They said they were confident it would win sufficient support to pass into law in Northern Ireland this year.

They added they were closing a loophole in the law that appeared with the opening of private clinic Marie Stopes.

The plan to amend the law, revealed to the BBC, comes after the opening of a private abortion and family planning clinic in Belfast last autumn.

Marie Stopes International has said it operates within the current law in Northern Ireland, which is different from the rest of the UK as it only allows for abortion when the mother's physical or mental health is in danger.

Mr Givan, who chairs the assembly's justice committee, said there are concerns it is not sufficiently regulated and the amendment would ensure that only the NHS could carry out abortions in Northern Ireland

"We're responding to the challenge that was presented when the Marie Stopes clinic opened in Northern Ireland and that revealed a loophole that private clinics are wholly unregulated, there's no form of accountability, no transparency," he said.

"Obviously on something as important as abortion, which is a criminal offence in Northern Ireland, we need to be satisfied that that issue is subject to the highest level of scrutiny.

"We believe the National Health Service is best placed to do that."

Mr Maginness said that if the amendment passed into law anyone carrying out an abortion outside the NHS could face a new sentence of up to 10 years in prison or a fine.

Another committee member, Ulster Unionist Tom Elliott, has also signed the amendment.

The amendment was tabled with the assembly's bills office on Wednesday morning.

The Criminal Justice Bill is due for its "further consideration" stage on Tuesday when the amendment will be debated.

In a joint statement they said they had grave concerns about the ability of a private clinic such as Marie Stopes to carry out abortion procedures without "any form of transparency, oversight or accountability".

The law governing abortion in Northern Ireland is different to the rest of the UK.
"Further it is dangerous that any organisation should receive financial reward from carrying out abortions."

They also pointed out that the NHS is subject to "the most rigorous levels of scrutiny through management structures to boards to the minister".

Mr Givan said that, regardless of one's view on abortion, this was about accountability and that it was not right that a private clinic could perform abortions without being regulated.

Mr Maginness added: "The net effect of the amendment is to ensure private clinics can't carry out abortion practices."

He also said the amendment had been worked on for some time and the MLAs had taken advice from a range of sources including the Attorney General.

The Marie Stopes clinic opened in Belfast in October, amid protests from pro-life groups.

Abortions are not illegal in NI but are very strictly controlled.

Tracey McNeill, director of Marie Stopes International, told the justice committee in January that while they are not required to be regulated they want to work within the legal framework in Northern Ireland.

'Strict assessment'

Abortions can be carried out in Northern Ireland only to preserve the life of the mother or if continuing the pregnancy would have other serious, permanent physical or mental health effects.

There is strict assessment regarding any impact on mental well-being and the woman must consult with two clinicians.

But Attorney General John Larkin - who is the chief legal advisor to the Stormont executive - wrote to the Stormont Justice Committee inviting them to investigate the operations of the Belfast clinic.

The Marie Stopes clinic has said it will carry out medical, not surgical, procedures only up to nine weeks gestation and only within the existing legal framework.

It said that the health professionals in the clinic will be from Northern Ireland and that they will make the assessments, although the views of the woman's own GP will be taken into consideration.

A 24-week limit for abortion applies in England, Wales and Scotland, where abortions are allowed under certain conditions, including that continuing with the pregnancy would involve a greater risk to the physical or mental health of the woman, or her existing children, than having a termination. The permission of two doctors - or one in an emergency - is also needed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21601908

[Maguire01]

Fair play to Catriona Ruane (did I actually just type that  ) and also Anna Lo, for speaking out against this. Looking more unlikely to be passed by the Assembly. It will be interesting to see just who signs the petition of concern.