Thug who beat thug freed

[A Quinn Martin Production]

A thought just occurred that could be relevant to this situation: what is the legal standing of a citizen's arrest or is it just the stuff of fiction? Supposing I fail to lamp him with the hurley and he gets away out the gate and down the road. Here's a suspected criminal escaping and here's me, a responsible citizen. Am I entitled to chase him, arrest him and hand him over to the guards? And if he resists arrest, am I allowed to subdue him with the hurley? How hard? "Maimed while trying to escape arrest, yer honour"?

From our old mate Wkipedia

Ireland

Any person can arrest someone who they have reasonable cause is in the act of committing or has committed an "arrestable" offence, that is one punishable by more than 5 years in prison.[11] The arrest can only be effected if the arrestor has reasonable cause that the person will attempt to avoid apprehension by Gardaí and the arrestor delivers the person to Garda custody as soon as is practicable.

England and Wales

A citizen's arrest (officially called an "any person arrest") is permitted to be made on any person under section 24A of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 for an indictable offence, including either way offences (in this section referred to simply as "an offence"), but excluding certain specific ones listed below. It is thus permissible for any person to arrest:

Anyone who is without doubt in the act of committing an offence, or whom the arrestor has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be in the act of committing an offence, and
Where an offence has been committed without doubt, anyone who is without doubt guilty of that offence or whom the arrestor has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of it
In order for the arrest to be lawful, the following two conditions must also be satisfied:

It is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make the arrest instead
The arrestor has reasonable grounds for believing that the arrest is necessary to prevent one of the following:
The person causing physical injury to himself or others
The person suffering physical injury
The person causing loss of or damage to property
The person absconding before a constable can assume responsibility for him
Use of the second power above is rather risky, since it relies upon the person carrying out the arrest knowing that an indictable or either way offence has been committed. If, for example, the arrested person is later acquitted in court, then it could be concluded that no offence has been committed; thus, the arrest would be unlawful. The Act therefore gives a constable additional powers to arrest the following:

Anyone who is (without doubt) about to commit an offence, or whom the constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be about to commit an offence
Anyone whom the constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of an offence which is merely suspected to have taken place
A constable's arrest power is not limited to indictable offences and conditions different from the above apply.

However, a citizen's arrest cannot be made:

inside a polling station, on a person who commits or is suspected of committing an offence of personation under article 30 of the National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) Order 2007,[22]
inside a polling station, on a person who commits or is suspected of committing an offence of personation under section 60 of the Representation of the People Act 1983[23]
in relation to an offence of stirring up racial hatred under Part 3 or stirring up religious hatred under Part 3A of the Public Order Act 1986.[24]
In addition to the above, a private person may be authorised to execute an arrest warrant, if the court issuing the warrant has given them the authority to do so, and any person may arrest someone who is "unlawfully at large" (for example, an escaped prisoner).

[edit] Other powers
An officer or agent of certain companies may seize and detain any person who has committed an offence against the provisions of the Companies Clauses Consolidation Act 1845 whose name and residence shall be but unknown to such officer or agent, and take them before a justice of the peace, who "shall proceed with all convenient despatch to the hearing and determining of the complaint against such offender".[25]

[edit] Northern Ireland
Similar provisions apply to Northern Ireland as to England and Wales, implemented through the Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 (SI 1989/1341)[26] as amended by the Police and Criminal Evidence (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order (SI 2007/288).

[Hardy]

Thanks, Quinn. I decided to try and answer my own question and have just come back from Wiki myself having found the same.

It doesn't say anything about allowable force in the case of Ireland or UK, but for several other countries it quotes, the general condition is that reasonable force may be used.

So it seems to me that in this type of case, you should perform a citizen's arrest, rather than just batin him with the hurley. If you say "you're under arrest" it seems you'd be allowed at least a gentle massaging with the camán.

[A Quinn Martin Production]

Thanks, Quinn. I decidec to try and answer my own question and have just come back from Wiki myself having found the same.

It doesn't say anything about allowable force in the case of Ireland or UK, but for several other countries it quotes, the general condition is that reasonable force may be used.

So it seems to me that in this type of case, you should perform a citizen''s arrest, rather than just batin him with the hurley. If you say "you're under arrest" it seems you'd be allowed at least a gentle massaging with the camán.

I know in the "UK" as I've said before you're allowed to use "reasonable" force to protect yourself, your family and your property.  In terms of a citizens arrest, inside the house it doesn't seem to be relevant as you can bate the shite out of them with a hurley or give them a good shoeing with a rugby boot etc and the law will (mostly) be on your side.  However in this case had Mr Hussain and his brother chased the guy, subdued him and maybe even said "If you move I'm going to skelp you round the nadgers with this cricket bat" this would have constituted a citizen's arrest??

[Hardy]

That's what I'm saying. Inside the property, especially with the imminent new legislation here, the burglar is fair game for whatever weapon you have to hand. But if he gets away and you catch him off the property, it seems you're covered, to some extent at least, to give him a good seeing to under the citizen's arrest banner. Should he resist arrest, that is.

[nrico2006]

The film Felon with Stephen Dorff is a good example of what happens to a man who doesn't get the burglar in the house, the front lawn is not the place to do him.

[Hardy]

I think the new legislation here will define the entire property, including the front lawn, as the theatre of operations within which you may be considered to be defending yourself and your family if you tackle an intruder.

[EC Unique]

How hard is it in this country (NI) to get a legally held hand gun to keep in the house? Do you need to have it for sporting reasons ie gun club use or can you have it for personal protection reasons with out been a high profile politician/member of security forces?

[pintsofguinness]

This is a very simple situation, and Hussein is a very lucky man that he wasn't convicted of Attempted murder never mind Greivous Bodily harm.  I have sympathy for him that he reacted the way he did but as soon as he started chasing the intruder down the street he left the realm of being a defender and entered the recklous zone that criminals live in.  Of course he was demented with fear for his wife and family( as I would be) but as many have pointed out the first reaction really should have been to check out that they were safe and well and not become a vigilante.  This role  has become more and more acceptable in society and lauded moreso than frowned upon.  That is wrong.  To have any form of civilised society there have to be rules both formal written laws and natural laws.  Irrespective of the harm caused by one to another no one has the right to talk retributive action that results in this type of injury.  A broken cricket bat ffs would suggest to me that every ounce of energy was used to do as much damage as possible and given the burglars final injuries I would suspect that Hussein didn't care a wit if he lived or died and hence my feelings that he should have been convicted of Attempted Murder. 

We may not accept that the police will do their job but there is only so much they can do.  We cannot hypothesize about whether or not this burglar would have come back as none of us are Nostradamus.  Hussein broke the law the same way as the burglar did.  There is a case for reasonable force to be used to protect your home and I fully agree that should be the case but this force was unreasonable and given the fact that it was done halfway down the street there was malice in it as well in my opinion.

Its all well saying this is the way it should be bc, but it isnt.
In much the same way as thugs with 50+ convictions still shouldnt be free to terrorise families.

If the sc**bag hadnt just terrorised the family, robbed them & threatened to kill them it wouldnt have happened.

Agree 100%

Agree as well, but when jail is not a deterrent, relaxed bail laws are the norm and handouts at every turn for these individuals, legal loopholes everywhere, no rural policing,what is an ordinary Joe to do to protect himself and his family when they come under attack? Sit back and wait until the criminal is finished terrorising his family and robbing him blind. If you come invade someones private property to carry out a crime, then be prepared to get whats coming, end of story. If the bleeding hearts want to protect these animals who have no respect for anyone of anything, let them, but if they or their family were attacked resulting in their  kids lying awake at night wondering if the bad men are going to come back and the missus totally paranoid about every noise outside the house, not to mention the total violation of the one secure and safe place. I know a family who are now like this following a robbery, a father who constantly blames himself for not doing more, i wonder if their attitude would still be the same. Break in to a house, your rights go and if that tresults in a criminals death or serious injury - hazard of the job.

What a load of emotional bullshit.  Btw, I'm someone who knows all about lying awake at night paranoid about every sound after a robbery.  Running after one of burglars and breaking a cricket bat over his head would not have made me feel better, in fact I'd think it'd make me more of a target for a revenge attack.  That reminds me, fullback will you stop talking about this boy coming back to rob them again, you've no idea if he would or not, in fact he probably wouldn't have.  and Hussain attacking him doesnt make it any less likely he'll be a target again, in fact it probably makes it more likely. 

Yes. Yer man should have been more concerned about his wife and children than rounding up a posse to chase yer man down the street. In that case no then it isn't acceptable.

All you tight men would probably be hiding under the bed anyway...

100% correct

EC

How hard is it in this country (NI) to get a legally held hand gun to keep in the house? Do you need to have it for sporting reasons ie gun club use or can you have it for personal protection reasons with out been a high profile politician/member of security forces?

Jesus christ

[full back]

That reminds me, fullback will you stop talking about this boy coming back to rob them again, you've no idea if he would or not, in fact he probably wouldn't have.

Have you any idea what you typed?
FFS, at least let what you post make sense

[bingobus]

That reminds me, fullback will you stop talking about this boy coming back to rob them again, you've no idea if he would or not, in fact he probably wouldn't have.

Have you any idea what you typed?
FFS, at least let what you post make sense

  Good spot Full back

[pintsofguinness]

That reminds me, fullback will you stop talking about this boy coming back to rob them again, you've no idea if he would or not, in fact he probably wouldn't have.

Have you any idea what you typed?
FFS, at least let what you post make sense

Makes perfect sense to me but I'll break it down for you:
You keep saying Husain done this because he didn't know if they would come back and attack them again. 
The chances of them coming back are greater now than they were before he took a cricket bat to someone's head. 

[no mo do yakamo]

So if youre going to start the job be sure to finish it.

[pintsofguinness]

So if youre going to start the job be sure to finish it.

Not if he's got friends

[bonaduche]

the law is very compex regarding this matter
you may match force with force if confronted by a situation in where you fear for your life.
the main point is that you must express immediatly when quetioned that you were in fear of your or smeone elses life and took what you> thought<  where the only steps available at the time....    even if it ment lethol action and matched what you thought was..... like force with like force........
It is all in the way you tell what you felt during the action and dont deviate   

this guy who beat the thug with the cricket bat had what the law states... time for a reflection..
so while in the mind set of all decent people he did what we would all like to do                .... technically in the eyes of the law  he premeditated and act of revenge with  violence and this is a crime ..... 
    he should have pulled the hood back into his house and whaled the s...t out of him   stating he came back...........
farmer  Martin who shot the burgler and was convicted a few years ago ....
his only short fall was he shot the robber in the back.... running away so he could not have been in fear of his life....