The Battle for Fermanagh and South Tyrone

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Some of the Stoops in this discussion are really stooping down low -- to the bottom of the barrel -- in their attempts to paint SF as unionist as the SDLP 

I don't think anyone is claiming that SF is unionist, but rather that the SDLP and they are both nationalists.

Surely you mean that the SDLP are Post-Nationalist, as they have been telling us throughout the election?

[ardmhachaabu]

Zap, be a good man and answer trileacman's question.  I see little point in re-hashing my views with you, if you can answer the question we can take it further from there

[lynchbhoy]

Can you come with any evidence that SF are not a unionist party and the SDLP are?

I'd have thought that they are the only All Ireland political party shows they are working on both fronts for a re-unification.I take it this is the 'evidence' yourself and ardmhachaabu are looking for !

[Zapatista]

Zap, be a good man and answer trileacman's question.  I see little point in re-hashing my views with you, if you can answer the question we can take it further from there

Trileacman came a little late to the debate. The post he quoted was me explaining to you why being in the assembley does not make sf unionist. It does not make the SDLP unionist either but they had no part in your original point which I was addressing. I see little point in rehashing my views in order to answer answer a question trileacman pulled from a post that had nothing to do with the SDLP (but it can be applied to them). My views are on the thread.

[delboy]

Whats with all this unionist party infighting on here lately 

[ardmhachaabu]

Zap, I know yours view are on the thread, that's why I engaged with you and am now asking you to qualify how you can say that the SDLP are a Unionist party and somehow SF aren't.   SF are doing the same thing now that the SDLP have done for years before them.  Don't give me any crap about SF fighting for reunification, it ain't going to happen in my lifetime or yours.  It will happen 50 or more years down the line.  Politics in the north has to be normalised before that can happen though, that's for sure.  Election pacts along orange/green lines are never going to further re-unification.  It has to be done in a way so as to include everyone on the island being comfortable with whatever longterm solution is in place which ensures no discrimination could take place and that every tradition etc would be respected.  As it stands, a bill of rights is needed before any of that can happen.  Senior SF strategists are bound to know this though it would look bad if they were to tell their activists that keeping a united Ireland on the political agenda is pointless.  After all, what would the war have all been about? 

[armaghniac]

Q. What's the difference between the UU and a Bus?
A. A bus has seats!

Q.What's the difference between SF and an insurance company?
A. An insurance company has economic policies that appeal to the prudent.

[Zapatista]

Zap, I know yours view are on the thread, that's why I engaged with you and am now asking you to qualify how you can say that the SDLP are a Unionist party and somehow SF aren't.   SF are doing the same thing now that the SDLP have done for years before them.  Don't give me any crap about SF fighting for reunification, it ain't going to happen in my lifetime or yours.  It will happen 50 or more years down the line.  Politics in the north has to be normalised before that can happen though, that's for sure.  Election pacts along orange/green lines are never going to further re-unification.  It has to be done in a way so as to include everyone on the island being comfortable with whatever longterm solution is in place which ensures no discrimination could take place and that every tradition etc would be respected.  As it stands, a bill of rights is needed before any of that can happen.  Senior SF strategists are bound to know this though it would look bad if they were to tell their activists that keeping a united Ireland on the political agenda is pointless.  After all, what would the war have all been about?

Once again, unionism is the default position for anyone not activily persuing a Republic. The SDLP fall into this category while SF do not.

Regardless if a UI is ten million years away you can still be a Republican working towards those ten million years. If you don't it might never happen . SF's strategy could fail miserabley but that has no bearing on wether they are republican or not. Your seem to be suggestion SF are unionists because a UI won't happen in your lifetime. That doesn't make sense.

[lynchbhoy]

Zap, I know yours view are on the thread, that's why I engaged with you and am now asking you to qualify how you can say that the SDLP are a Unionist party and somehow SF aren't.   SF are doing the same thing now that the SDLP have done for years before them.  Don't give me any crap about SF fighting for reunification, it ain't going to happen in my lifetime or yours.  It will happen 50 or more years down the line.  Politics in the north has to be normalised before that can happen though, that's for sure.  Election pacts along orange/green lines are never going to further re-unification.  It has to be done in a way so as to include everyone on the island being comfortable with whatever longterm solution is in place which ensures no discrimination could take place and that every tradition etc would be respected.  As it stands, a bill of rights is needed before any of that can happen.  Senior SF strategists are bound to know this though it would look bad if they were to tell their activists that keeping a united Ireland on the political agenda is pointless.  After all, what would the war have all been about?

funnily enough , people said the same about peace, about sf getting votes/seats/mandate etc etc


also regarding sf's economic policies - they are no worse than the rest of the Irish political parties economic policies, as seen by the mismanagement of this gov, and the woeful ideas that hopefully fine gael will never get a chance to put into use and completley destroy the country.

as for economic policies for the six county political parties- do any of them have one !

[ardmhachaabu]

No Zap, SF have accepted the default position of the 6 counties to be under the union with Britain.  That's what the GFA states.  Now, how is that different from the SDLP's position?

It's all about consent.

[Zapatista]

No Zap, SF have accepted the default position of the 6 counties to be under the union with Britain.  That's what the GFA states.  Now, how is that different from the SDLP's position?

It's all about consent.

SF do not accet the default position. That is the SDLP position. You can't tell me the SDLP position and then ask me how is it different from the SDLP position. That's not discussion.

That is a completely thoughtless argument. SF have accepted consent and persue it. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If Ireland fail to reach their quotas in Green house emmissions does that mean the Green Party aren't environmentalist even though they did everything they could to reach it? No it doesn't. It would be unreasonable to say it did.  It is unreasonable to say SF are the same as the SDLP becuase of the GFA. It's not even a point. It's just makey uppy play school politics that means nothing.

[ardmhachaabu]

SF have accepted consent therefore they have accepted the 6 counties will remain British for as long as the people in the 6 counties want to remain in the union with Britain.  SF are administering and implementing British rule in the north just like the SDLP have done for years.  Look Zap, no matter how much you deny it, SF accepted the default position of the 6 counties to be in the union with Britain whether sf spindoctors say it or not.

[Fiodoir Ard Mhacha]

Ritchie is uncommonly uncharismatic for a politician, but she doesn't take people for fools as Adams does when he expects us to believe that he was never in the IRA.

Even after 30 years of bringing this up some people will never realise it doesn't harm Adams or SF.

That's because republicans would give their vote to a ham sandwich, providing it came wrapped in a tricolour and kept a unionist from taking the seat.

Very condescending comment, Myles. Are you saying 26% of the north's voting population are idiots? What is wrong with keeping a unionist out? The whole point of being a republican is to strive for a united Ireland.

That question has been settled, at least in the medium term. No change to the north's position without the consent of the people living there. Anyone think the unionists look like signing up to a united Ireland any time soon? No? Fair enough. Can we get on with ordinary bread and butter politics then, and come back to the constitutional issue in 30 or 40 years?

there are lies damn lies and statistics but the trend in the graph here is fairly clear

http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/gallsum.htm

1983 17 mps 15 unionists 2 nationalists

2010 18 mps 9 unionists 8 nationalists 1 alliance

the next 20 to 30 years will be interesting

Myles, such an ostrich notion that Irish unity has just gone away, and so we should all tuck ourselves into our beds until, suddenly, our children or grandchildren wake up in 40 years' time and Ireland is a nice and united wee island.  Moving towards Irish unity, whatever it will mean, is an aim any republican works for now, every day, and every inch of the way.  And yes, it's got to be a mutual agreement between all sides, including the south, but it's not something that's off the agenda now, this election or any up and coming poll.

[Nally Stand]

I hate to have to rehash an old post but it seems that in answer to questions of how the SDLP are unionist, I just have to do a quick rehash.

I'll list a number of examples which to me, typify the SDLP and their shade of unionism.

1. "We are a Post Nationalist Party" (Mark Durkan)
The phrase which sums up th SDLP westminster campaign of 2001. Describing themselves as post nationalist seems to have been the turning point in that key election and they have never properly recovered.

3. http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlidcwmhsn/
- In this instance they showed a complete disregard for the mandate given to SF by their voters and showed their level of committment to nationalism by joining a dirty pact with the two unionist parties. This was evidenced at a local level in my own are also at several recent elections. Coming from a Republican area, the SDLP in my local polling station often had a tactic of objecting to as many people as possible inside the station in the evening time; thereby preventing the lines of people still in the queue outside from voting once closing time came.

4. Attitude to All Ireland co-operation and voting rights for Irish Citizens in the north in Irish Presidential Elections
- As I pointed out on this board before, When SF proposed, in 13 councils, that these councils press the Dublin Govn to be more proactive in developing All Ireland strategies and for voting rights for people in the north in Irish Presidential Elections, only two got full SDLP support, the rest either got a split SDLP vote, SDLP members abstaining, SDLP refusing to attend etc. Even their party whips could not encourage their membership to give their full support to it. How can this party be trusted to stand up for Irish Unity when even the idea of increased All Ireland strategies/co-operation is too much for them to handle?

The Unionists of the SDLP also:

5. Felt that equality had been achieved in the 1980's claiming this equality was "now a reality"

6. Takes an oath of allegience to a British monarchy all to have the right to sit in Westminster, despite rarely attending anyway

7. Stated that they have "have no difficulty with a continuing MI5 role" in the north of Ireland

8. Voted in favour of 28 day detention

9. In 2006, argued in favour of diplock courts stating it was "essential that adequate provision for non-jury trials for appropriate offences in Northern Ireland is maintained"

10. Supported Irish citizens in the north being legally compelled to be included in a "British National Identity Register".

11. Regarded Ronnie Flanagan as a man who "wanted to edge policing forward"

12. Opposed Derry Council proceeding with its stated policy of petitioning the Privy Council to restore the name of Derry to the city

13. Assisted the Orange Order in having their joint unionist candidate capture the Fermanagh/South Tyrone seat just to avoid a SF member taking the seat. (Thankfully the people showed them the middle finger on this one.)

14. Sends a member of it's Assembly team on a British Ministry of Defence trip to Afghanistan

15. Voted in in the Assembly for increased pensions for the RUC Part-Time Reservists

16. Voted in Belfast City Council for the placing of dozens of British Army plaques, including two UDR plaques around the walls inside City Hall.

17. For years claimed allegations of collusion between the British state and Loyalist gangs was "republican propeganda"

[ardmhachaabu]

No matter what you say nally, the fact remains Sf are still administering, implementing and even creating British rule in the north.  Whatever happened to 'No return to Stormont'?