The Battle for Fermanagh and South Tyrone

[Zapatista]

I think it's time there was a distinction made between Nationalism and Republicanism.

For as long as SF pay homage to Nationalism they will be in competition with the SDLP in every election they run. If the SDLP are wiped out then they will just be replaced with another form of Nationalism. The great trick in Nationalism is that there are no ideals. It is the lowest common denominator. Unionism is British Nationalism and has no ideals. The SDLP have no ideals but draw from Irish Nationals for reasons I can't fathom. SF use nationalism to futher their republicanism making it a diluted republicanism. There are only two real political ideals in the north and it's time to draw a thicker line between them.

Maskey should run on a Republican ticket and let the SDLP run on a Nationalism ticket. The same goes for FST. 12 years into the GFA I think it's time to start some politics. There is no better place to do it than a westminster election. Assembly elections are perhaps a little delicate yet. It may result in short term losses for the leaders of it but it is in the interest of us all.

[ardmhachaabu]

Do you even know what the word means Ulick?

I do yes, I think I do, but I'm a bit of a stickler of words being used imprecisely so I'm genuinely asking you to explain why maximising strength for a political position that has nothing to do with religion is sectarian.

It has everything to do with religion and you know it

I don't know why I am even wasting my time with yet another armchair republican on here.  It's like this Donagh, if they are seeking votes on orange/green lines they are being sectarian and that's exactly the scenario you painted whether you like it or not. 

[Zapatista]

Do you even know what the word means Ulick?

I do yes, I think I do, but I'm a bit of a stickler of words being used imprecisely so I'm genuinely asking you to explain why maximising strength for a political position that has nothing to do with religion is sectarian.

It has everything to do with religion and you know it

I don't know why I am even wasting my time with yet another armchair republican on here.  It's like this Donagh, if they are seeking votes on orange/green lines they are being sectarian and that's exactly the scenario you painted whether you like it or not.

To be fair, Nationalism isn't sectarian. It's bullshit but not sectarian. It's the OO element that makes the Unionist decision sectarian as Unionism itself isn't sectarian.

[gallsman]

NS, you're an absolute embarrassment. Answer the following question at long , long last -  no spin, no whinging.

Why is it unacceptable for unionists to attempt to secure a seat in a predominantly nationalist constituency (FST) but it is fine for nationalists to do the same with a majority unionist constituency (SB)?

This thread should be renamed Acronyms Anonymous!

[Zapatista]

NS, you're an absolute embarrassment. Answer the following question at long , long last -  no spin, no whinging.

Why is it unacceptable for unionists to attempt to secure a seat in a predominantly nationalist constituency (FST) but it is fine for nationalists to do the same with a majority unionist constituency (SB)?

This thread should be renamed Acronyms Anonymous!

Nationalism isn't sectarian. It's bullshit but not sectarian. It's the OO element that makes the Unionist decision sectarian as Unionism itself isn't sectarian

I don't think it's fine as both SF and the SDLP claim to be very different but it doesn't have the sectarian element. That's not a good enough reason. I suppose tactical voting on an anti-sectarian motive can be justified but not on a pro-sectarian motive.

[ardmhachaabu]

Do you even know what the word means Ulick?

I do yes, I think I do, but I'm a bit of a stickler of words being used imprecisely so I'm genuinely asking you to explain why maximising strength for a political position that has nothing to do with religion is sectarian.

It has everything to do with religion and you know it

I don't know why I am even wasting my time with yet another armchair republican on here.  It's like this Donagh, if they are seeking votes on orange/green lines they are being sectarian and that's exactly the scenario you painted whether you like it or not.

To be fair, Nationalism isn't sectarian. It's bullshit but not sectarian. It's the OO element that makes the Unionist decision sectarian as Unionism itself isn't sectarian.

Zap, with respect, that's rubbish.  Seeking votes along green/orange lines is sectarian whether it's unionism or the shinners at it.  Sectarianism isn't a one way street.  If unionists are at it you can't say the shinners aren't in the same breath.

[Zapatista]

Zap, with respect, that's rubbish.  Seeking votes along green/orange lines is sectarian whether it's unionism or the shinners at it.  Sectarianism isn't a one way street.  If unionists are at it you can't say the shinners aren't in the same breath.

The key element you're leaving out is the OO. I'm basing my opinion on theory and giving the reason SF justify this. It can be argued that it's accurate but i'll admit it isn't conclusive. You aslo seem to be dividing Green and Orange as Protestant and Catholic (which in itself could be defined as sectarian) and if that is your default view I will never be able to convince you otherwise.

[Ulick]

They won't! If Michelle Gildernew represents the majority, she will be elected regardless of who else is standing.

Of course they will. Who said anything about 'represents the majority'? I meant representing the majority viewpoint viewpoint on the national question. It quite obvious if you have two candidates representing that viewpoint who split the vote against a single candidate opposed to it, then the single candidate will get in despite representing the minority viewpoint.

Once again, I'll try to make it clear: the electorate will split the vote if they wish, not one party.

And why should people vote on the one constitutional issue? Has the GFA not already determined what's happening in that regard? How will the constitutional issue be impacted by the result of these Westminster elections? Should the electorate's primary concern be the constitutional issue?

And again, I'll ask:
If Rodney Connor is elected, what will we lose from Michelle Gildernew's time in power?
And
What would Michelle Gildernew deliver, if reelected, that she couldn't do as an MLA and Minister?

Well if you refuse to see the effects of a vote splitting or spoiler candidate then there is no point in continuing but I think most can make their own mind up on that.

As for your other questions:
1. no point asking me why - I didn't create the situation
2. I've already said what they'll lose elsewhere on this thread and I've no intention of wasting my employers time trying to explain it again.

[Ulick]

It has everything to do with religion and you know it

I don't know why I am even wasting my time with yet another armchair republican on here.  It's like this Donagh, if they are seeking votes on orange/green lines they are being sectarian and that's exactly the scenario you painted whether you like it or not.

But you keep repeating that without explaining why - what is it in nationalism or republicanism that is sectarian?

[JohnDenver]

They could both step aside and let The Workers party have a rattle at it for a bit of craic if nothing else.

[glens abu]

Wonder what Maskey thinks of being told to stand down?

Alex Maskey wasn't told to stand down it was a collective decision by the leadership of the party  which includes Alex Maskey.This was a decision that was taken after nearly two days of deliberations and is an effort the maximise the Republican/Nationalist represention across the North. Yes Alex Maskey and all the Sinn Fein workers in South Belfast are dissappointed that they will not be fighting the election after all the hard work they have been doing in resent months but they except this decision and will now be throwing their weight behind their comrades in North Belfast who are trying to get Gerry Kelly elected.As for this being a sectarian move the big difference we see in the orange order bringing together all shades of Unionism to keep out a Nationalist is when these people get into positions of power they act in a sectarian manner by refusing to share power with the Nationalist Representatives as can been seen in council areas they control {eg Newtownabbey, Lisburn etc;} whereas when the SDLP or Sinn Fein hold the power in other areas they administer that power on an equal basis,this can be seen in council areas right across the North.So for me that what makes the decision in F&ST sectarian and and the decision for Sinn Fein to give the SDLP a free run in SB nonsectarian as we know that at least Alistair McDonnell will work for all his constituents on an equal basis

Let's face it. Everything Sinn Fein do is in the interests of Sinn  Fein, not the broad nationalist community but Sinn Fein.
This is  the same Sinn Fein who chose to have a Unionist Justice Minister over a nationalist one.

how did they chose to have a Unionist over a Nationalist :oAs I explained on another post for people like you who obviously don't understand the working of the Executive or D'Hont,if D'Hont had been run for the Justice minister all the posts would have had to be put back up for grabs and therefore the DUP would have had 1st pick and guess what?They would have picked Policing and Justice and then there would have been something to cry about and the SDLP would have had the 5th chose.So here ends your history lesson.RememberGaffer always try and get your facts right before you print.

[Zapatista]

how did they chose to have a Unionist over a Nationalist :oAs I explained on another post for people like you who obviously don't understand the working of the Executive or D'Hont,if D'Hont had been run for the Justice minister all the posts would have had to be put back up for grabs and therefore the DUP would have had 1st pick and guess what?They would have picked Policing and Justice and then there would have been something to cry about and the SDLP would have had the 5th chose.So here ends your history lesson.RememberGaffer always try and get your facts right before you print.

No they wouldn't, they needed cross community support and they didn't have if for that Ministery. It was a case of get an alliance guy to do it or no devolution due to the D'hont system. If the DUP had have backed the SDLP they would have the post but having a nationalist as minister for P&J was a step too far for the DUP.

[glens abu]

how did they chose to have a Unionist over a Nationalist :oAs I explained on another post for people like you who obviously don't understand the working of the Executive or D'Hont,if D'Hont had been run for the Justice minister all the posts would have had to be put back up for grabs and therefore the DUP would have had 1st pick and guess what?They would have picked Policing and Justice and then there would have been something to cry about and the SDLP would have had the 5th chose.So here ends your history lesson.RememberGaffer always try and get your facts right before you print.

No they wouldn't, they needed cross community support and they didn't have if for that Ministery. It was a case of get an alliance guy to do it or no devolution due to the D'hont system. If the DUP had have backed the SDLP they would have the post but having a nationalist as minister for P&J was a step too far for the DUP.

Correct thats what I am saying but if D'Hont had have ran which the SDLP wanted then the DUP would have taken the post.Sinn Fein did support the SDLP for the post but there was not enough cross community support.

[Zapatista]

how did they chose to have a Unionist over a Nationalist :oAs I explained on another post for people like you who obviously don't understand the working of the Executive or D'Hont,if D'Hont had been run for the Justice minister all the posts would have had to be put back up for grabs and therefore the DUP would have had 1st pick and guess what?They would have picked Policing and Justice and then there would have been something to cry about and the SDLP would have had the 5th chose.So here ends your history lesson.RememberGaffer always try and get your facts right before you print.

No they wouldn't, they needed cross community support and they didn't have if for that Ministery. It was a case of get an alliance guy to do it or no devolution due to the D'hont system. If the DUP had have backed the SDLP they would have the post but having a nationalist as minister for P&J was a step too far for the DUP.

Correct thats what I am saying but if D'Hont had have ran which the SDLP wanted then the DUP would have taken the post.Sinn Fein did support the SDLP for the post but there was not enough cross community support.

They would have chose Finance as there first choice as would any Party worth their salt.

[johnneycool]

how did they chose to have a Unionist over a Nationalist :oAs I explained on another post for people like you who obviously don't understand the working of the Executive or D'Hont,if D'Hont had been run for the Justice minister all the posts would have had to be put back up for grabs and therefore the DUP would have had 1st pick and guess what?They would have picked Policing and Justice and then there would have been something to cry about and the SDLP would have had the 5th chose.So here ends your history lesson.RememberGaffer always try and get your facts right before you print.

No they wouldn't, they needed cross community support and they didn't have if for that Ministery. It was a case of get an alliance guy to do it or no devolution due to the D'hont system. If the DUP had have backed the SDLP they would have the post but having a nationalist as minister for P&J was a step too far for the DUP.

Correct thats what I am saying but if D'Hont had have ran which the SDLP wanted then the DUP would have taken the post.Sinn Fein did support the SDLP for the post but there was not enough cross community support.

They would have chose Finance as there first choice as would any Party worth their salt.

i'd have thought the DUP would have jumped at P&J considering the baggage it entails.

In a normal administration you'd say finance would normally be the biggie but things are a little bit different here.