Armagh v Down- 29th June-Ulster Semi Final Thread

[Uladh]

To be honest Id be happy enough to let Clarke and McDonnell tear away. Id be confident in our middle diamond winning enough possession to supply our forwards with enough ball to win the game by 3 or 4 points.

Lets hope ross feels the same way!

wobbler - do you really think armagh players are thinking that they've no chance of winning an all ireland and that this will somehow affect their mindest for sunday?

talk about tyrone all you like but there is only one "enemy" in armagh.

Is 5times still banned? i miss him... some of the clowns on this thread make him look positively charming

[full back]

talk about tyrone all you like but there is only one "enemy" in armagh.

Correct
Dont know what it is but Tyrone just dont come close

[T O Hare]

I hope Benny starts at centre half forward and what i fear most about our back line is their height, Clarke and Stevie are great fielders of the ball, but in fairness there is nt much on the bench to rotate.. Colgan is a big lad but Clarke would skin him, he would have too much craft for him!!!

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

Sunday will be interesting to see what sort of mental attitude Armagh have. I keep reading on another thread that Ulster titles no longer mean anything to these boys, but at the back of their minds they surely must know that there isn't an All Ireland in their team this year. This has to play on their minds in terms of motivation. On top of this, having not had a rivalry with them for years, do they even 'hate' Down anymore? Much like Tyrone against Down, Armagh couldn't be faulted for effort against Cavan, but the intensity of a few years ago wasn't there. The bloody mindedness and cockiness aren't seemingly as evident.

Before the Derry Mckenna cup match, Peter McDonnell was asked what is expectations for the year were and he replied that the squad's own expectations were much higher than their supporters' expectation. Now this may have been a simple matter of saying the right things in public but I got the impression that McDonnell is aiming at the All Ireland. Of course, aiming and having the slightest chance of achieving are two very different things but when you look at the season ahead  Kerry are clearly the best side in the country but I think they may be beaten somewhere along the way, Dublin are next best but have real flaws. After that, there's nobody who would stand out as a step above Armagh. An All Ireland is unlikely but its within the realms of possibility and I certainly wouldn't expect the team to believe they can't achieve it.

Martin O'Rourke will, I imagine, be found spending quite a bit of this game standing in front of Benny Coulter. I'd suggest we do likewise with Murtagh or Sexton at the other end. Where Clarke and McDonnell are most dangerous of all is that they instinctively know how to time their runs and break the ball to each other...almost inevitably leading to goals. Just one more body back there, even if it has to be a forward, should be worth at least 3 points in Down's favour.

Not sure that's how it'll pan out. Aidan is more likely to sweep back with Charlie providing the extra cover in defence if necessary. Martin O'Rourke will be needed for the breaking ball around the middle. One of the most encouraging things about Clarke and McDonnell against Cavan was that they weren't both automatically looking for each other but were being well supported by the half forwards.

[Smokin Joe]

talk about tyrone all you like but there is only one "enemy" in armagh.

Correct
Dont know what it is but Tyrone just dont come close

Depends where you are from I guess.

Being from the west of the county there is no question that I see Tyrone as more "hated" rivals than Down.

[buglebhoy]

Random points.

Sunday will be interesting to see what sort of mental attitude Armagh have. I keep reading on another thread that Ulster titles no longer mean anything to these boys, but at the back of their minds they surely must know that there isn't an All Ireland in their team this year. This has to play on their minds in terms of motivation. On top of this, having not had a rivalry with them for years, do they even 'hate' Down anymore? Much like Tyrone against Down, Armagh couldn't be faulted for effort against Cavan, but the intensity of a few years ago wasn't there. The bloody mindedness and cockiness aren't seemingly as evident.

I would never, ever wish an injury on a player, but it would be very interesting to see how Armagh might adapt should either Clarke or McDonnell have to come off. Uladh or someone might be able to reel off real stats, but it seems to me that when one or the other has been missing in the past 3 seasons has correlated directly with indistinguished Armagh performances.

I sincerely hope that Ronan Murtagh and Ciaran McKeever line up as far away from each other as possible. Neither is likely to finish the game if they're in direct opposition.

As well as being better players than their direct opponents, Down's half-back line has a distinct aeriel advantage over Armagh's half-forward line. I would wager a week's wages that McVeigh's first 10 kick-outs will head towards Gordon (and why wouldn't they?), but this is a useful back-up plan. Armagh's defence is much stronger than Down's. We might need 60%+ possession at midfield to break even on the scoreboard.

Martin O'Rourke will, I imagine, be found spending quite a bit of this game standing in front of Benny Coulter. I'd suggest we do likewise with Murtagh or Sexton at the other end. Where Clarke and McDonnell are most dangerous of all is that they instinctively know how to time their runs and break the ball to each other...almost inevitably leading to goals. Just one more body back there, even if it has to be a forward, should be worth at least 3 points in Down's favour.

Wobbler, is there history between these 2 boys? 

[bennydorano]

Dear Ross, please put on James Colgan.

Cheers

[Uladh]

Dear Ross

Please put on james colgan and let Clarke and McDonnell tear away. Id be confident in your middle diamond winning enough possession to supply your forwards with enough ball to win the game by 3 or 4 points.

Cheers

[bcarrier]

Is the Armagh full forward line that good ?

They dont have the pace that has really destroyed Down full back lines in recent times. Ok, they are strong in the air and Stevie might chip in with 4/5 points and Clarke 2 or 3 but that isnt a match winning score . The Down half back line will probably contribute something similar. Goals will be key ...as Mchugh has pointed out Armagh arent  noted goal scorers .  I expect Dan McCartan and Ronan will wrestle it out for 70 minutes and I am sure we can get someone to niggle away at Stevie. I would be more worried that Doyle will give Stephen Kernan too much room...mind you the opposite might be the case.

[Double Cross]

Sunday will be interesting to see what sort of mental attitude Armagh have. I keep reading on another thread that Ulster titles no longer mean anything to these boys, but at the back of their minds they surely must know that there isn't an All Ireland in their team this year. This has to play on their minds in terms of motivation. On top of this, having not had a rivalry with them for years, do they even 'hate' Down anymore? Much like Tyrone against Down, Armagh couldn't be faulted for effort against Cavan, but the intensity of a few years ago wasn't there. The bloody mindedness and cockiness aren't seemingly as evident.

What planet do you live on? This is Armagh v Down, this is as big as it gets. Forget Derry v Tyrone forget Armagh v Tyrone, this is the biggest, oldest and fiercest rivalry in Ulster. This is war. Down havent beaten Armagh since they were reigining All Ireland champs in 1992. Down are out to avenge the 1999 hammering. Armagh are out to keep Down in their place. This is about bragging rights in the offices, factories, pubs and clubs in Newry. This victory will still be celebrated by one side or the other when the Schools return in September such is the rivalry. To suggest otherwise is idiocy.
Armagh are up for this game, make no mistake about it. This is a stepping stone to bigger and better things. Armagh didnt have to get motivated to beat Cavan, we didnt need to. We`ll show you bloody mindedness and cockiness about 5.30 on Sunday. Just make sure you hang around long enough to see it.

[Yes I Would]

Thats the Spirit Double Cross. Armagh didnt get playin Down anywhere near enough over the last 15 years, and i think that motivation to beat them will still be very strong!!
Cannot see Armagh failing to find the net in this game. Armagh by 4!!

[Scarface]

Mate you cannot come on here telling people who their biggest rivalry is with. You are obviously from South Armagh and so it makes sense that you would always want to get one over on Down due to possibly attending the same schools in newry etc etc. However, as a mid armagh man I can tell you that I would feel that Tyrone are the greatest 'enemy' in footballing terms to us. I have no resentment at all towards Down in that way.

[Goats Do Shave]

Mate you cannot come on here telling people who their biggest rivalry is with. You are obviously from South Armagh and so it makes sense that you would always want to get one over on Down due to possibly attending the same schools in newry etc etc. However, as a mid armagh man I can tell you that I would feel that Tyrone are the greatest 'enemy' in footballing terms to us. I have no resentment at all towards Down in that way.

I'd agree, depends on where you live, who your neighbours/friends are & where you are schooled!

[corn02]

Am I the only one who wouldn't mind Enda starting, was Canavan's toughest opponent, would he be up to doing a job on Coulter. Benny is unreal in the air and that is Mallons weak point - people winninh high ball over him. Play low ball into Coulter and Mallon will break even, play high football and Mallon could be caught. Of course Armagh will have so many men back that high bal lwill probably be snuffed out.

[corn02]

DOWN made the first move with a victory over Tyrone and Armagh kept their half of the bargain with a four-point win over Cavan. This Sunday, the old rivals will get the chance to renew pleasantries at Clones.
There is a buzz around Down that has not been seen since they reached the 2003 Ulster final where they suffered a replay defeat to Tyrone.

Armagh have held the indian sign over the Mournemen for a number of years. Successive league defeats to their rivals in 2005, 2006 and 2007 would have hurt but not as much as the Championship defeats of 1998 and 1999 along with a qualifier loss in 2001 for good measure.

The red and black have been starved of success and this year's Dr McKenna Cup glory will do little to vanquish the hunger. They want real success; an Ulster title will suffice for now.
Momentum plays a big part in Ulster and Down hold that ace. The manner in which they disposed of Tyrone will add character and belief to the team. Four points down midway through the first half of extra-time, they looked dead and buried. The way they responded is very much indicative of the sort of persona Ross Carr and DJ Kane have developed for the team.
The county renowned as the aristocrats of gaelic football are suddenly rolling up their sleeves. When Armagh won Sam in 02 and Tyrone in 03 and 05, Kerry were victims in all three seasons.

The 03 semi-final was famously described as 'puke football' by Pat Spillane. Tyrone physically battered their rivals around the pitch. Kerry learned about blanket defences, they learned a bit of cynicism and through 'puke football', they are now looking for their third All-Ireland on the trot.
Down can relate to the Kingdom. Anyone who witnessed Down playing  Armagh or Tyrone over the last few years will have witnessed The five-time All-Ireland champion's  willingness to play attractive football ruthlessly quelled by their opponents. The Down team of 2008 is a
different proposition who are not afraid to deliver the big hits when needed.
A analysis of each team reveals that the Orchard certainly have a sizeable advantage in regards talent, so Down will have to get their tactics just right.

Jackie Lynch, Ambrose Rodgers and Dan Gordon are likely to play in the middle - this could backfire. A crowded midfield creates a lot of break ball. With Brian Dooher a shadow of his former self, it is fair to say that Armagh's Martin O'Rourke is the best break-ball winner in Ulster.
Even when playing well below his best against Cavan, the Dromintee man was still Armagh's best performer in this sector, mirroring their league campaign. Down may be advised to keep the midfield as deserted as possible, allowing Gordon to demonstrate his aerial abilities.
Aidan O'Rourke is likely to sit back and cover the space in front of Benny Coulter and Paul McCumiskey - if he starts. The simple way to eliminate the sweeper from proceedings is to deliver accurate, diagonal ball to Down's favoured two-man full-forward line.
Paul Murphy and Liam Doyle proved in the Tyrone matches that they are well capable of delivering the supply to the inside line. If they continue this against Armagh, O'Rourke could prove anonymous and Down could prosper.
Coulter was not at his best in the two games against Tyrone yet still hit 2-3. Andy Mallon will pick up the Mayobridge man and although he has snuffed out the likes of Seanie Johnston and Paddy Bradley, he may find Coulter a different proposition.
Coulter must rely on John Clarke and Daniel Hughes to assist in the scoring. McCumiskey, when he appears, will have a field day on Moriarty if he receives the supply he needs. Moriarty has a tendency to foul when rounded and the Dundrum man has the pace and intelligence to exploit this.

Down's biggest fear should be their porous full-back line. Martin Cole will be banned for the match so Daniel McCartan may take the number three jersey with Luke Howard and Damian Rafferty beside him.
The partnership of Stephen McDonnell and Ronan Clarke is well celebrated, but if the Down defence allow the duo to get the run on them, the Mournemen will be heading for the qualifiers.
Much has been made that this is an old Armagh team on the slide; The average age of the Armagh side who faced Cavan was slightly over 26.5, the average age of the Down side that lined out in Newry was just one year younger. Carr and Kane are too smart to believe the assumption.

Armagh's win over Down in the first round of the 1998 USFC championship was seen as both a stepping stone out of the doldrums and also proof that Armagh now had the edge over their rivals.
A win for Down on Sunday and the pendulum will have swung in the other direction. That outcome however, is unlikely. Armagh have a stronger team and should progress to the Ulster Final where Fermanagh lie in wait.
Verdict: Armagh by two and less than 30 men to be on the field at the game's conclusion.