Armagh Club football & hurling

[Armagh18]

I have to say, I dont get it. 2nds teams can still enter the junior league, but only the best 3 can compete in the junior championship.  How does that solve any perceived "small" club difficulty with competition and winning things?

I think there seems to be some sort of fear that these 2nds teams will be filled with top quality D1 players. The reality is that they will largely be made up of young lads that the clubs hope to not lose, lads who have never been good enough for the 1st team, and lads who are no longer capable of 1st team.

Seen enough of Clann Eireann to know that is simply not true.

Long term aim is to get them out of the championship completely but that will take time.

I'd say that they are an anomaly.

I could understand totally removing them more, albeit I wouldnt agree with it considering the shambles of reserve football.

Thats the idea, but obviously with the aim of also sorting the reserve league to give those lads proper football. Completely understand where you lads are coming from by the way and totally agree that bigger clubs need an option for lads outside their first 20/25 who are getting game time for the senior team.

Clann Eireann would probably have a fair amount of players not getting game time who would start for a lot of if not most senior teams, certainly intermediate anyway I would say.

[tonto1888]

So the issue Lissummon and others had is the 2nds teams take away their chances of winning a championship? How many seconds teams have won a junior in recent memory? How many have Lissumon won?

[Mick Bustin]

Here is a rundown of my own club's season in a 9-team reserve league.

Match 1: Won by 39 pts.
Match 2: Won by 7 pts.
Match 3: Won by 22 pts.
Match 4: W/over, other team DNF
Match 5: Won by 13 pts.
Match 6: W/over, other team DNF
Match 7: DNF (match refixed at short notice day after a senior match)
Match 8: Won by 28 pts.

League semi-final: Won by 6 pts.
League final: Lost by 3 pts (last minute goal).

Championship
Prelim. Round: W/over, other team DNF
Round 1: Won by 18 pts.
Q/F: Lost by 4 pts against eventual winners.

From our perspective, we weren't intent on "cooking the books" to try and win or compete for an "easy" Junior title as someone above has cynically suggested.

I'd hazard a guess that we only just have the numbers to make a 2nds team viable and I imagine our "stronger" reserve players will be invited/told to tog out for the seniors. If we do press ahead with it, it will be with the intention of having regular, competitive games for our players and nothing else. I imagine this is the same for any of the other clubs that intend on fielding a 2nds team in 2025.

[Armagh18]

What club is that Mick?

As I've said before, the reserve league needs sorting big time.

[Gael-in-exile]

My only experience of similar leagues is in Antrim. They grade 15 although in previous years 2 grades players could play reserve.
Reserves generally had their own league which mirrored senior so St Galls v Cargin in D1 & the same fixture in reserve league.
It tended to work well for a number of years but has changed in the last few due to failures to field so now in some cases reserves play in the league and follow promotion and relegation normally. They do not play in championship though. There are separate reserve championships an A & B depending on what level they are at.

The surprising thing I've gathered here is the 24 graded senior players. Surely there are boys out there who are not getting enough chances to play. They'd be graded senior but not make the team and thus have no outlet - that can't be a good thing surely.

[statto]

My only experience of similar leagues is in Antrim. They grade 15 although in previous years 2 grades players could play reserve.
Reserves generally had their own league which mirrored senior so St Galls v Cargin in D1 & the same fixture in reserve league.
It tended to work well for a number of years but has changed in the last few due to failures to field so now in some cases reserves play in the league and follow promotion and relegation normally. They do not play in championship though. There are separate reserve championships an A & B depending on what level they are at.

The surprising thing I've gathered here is the 24 graded senior players. Surely there are boys out there who are not getting enough chances to play. They'd be graded senior but not make the team and thus have no outlet - that can't be a good thing surely.

In the example this year of Clann Eireann 5 of those would have been with the county who played little if any league football so in theory working off 19 players would been plenty of football to go around.

[Gael-in-exile]

My only experience of similar leagues is in Antrim. They grade 15 although in previous years 2 grades players could play reserve.
Reserves generally had their own league which mirrored senior so St Galls v Cargin in D1 & the same fixture in reserve league.
It tended to work well for a number of years but has changed in the last few due to failures to field so now in some cases reserves play in the league and follow promotion and relegation normally. They do not play in championship though. There are separate reserve championships an A & B depending on what level they are at.

The surprising thing I've gathered here is the 24 graded senior players. Surely there are boys out there who are not getting enough chances to play. They'd be graded senior but not make the team and thus have no outlet - that can't be a good thing surely.

In the example this year of Clann Eireann 5 of those would have been with the county who played little if any league football so in theory working off 19 players would been plenty of football to go around.

That's a fair enough take on it but if there's a club grading 24 with only 1 or 2 county players then your still leaving 7 or 8 players 'hoping' to get a game week on week.
It could be the reason clubs grade players who are out of the country or long term injured as has been suggested. 

[statto]

My only experience of similar leagues is in Antrim. They grade 15 although in previous years 2 grades players could play reserve.
Reserves generally had their own league which mirrored senior so St Galls v Cargin in D1 & the same fixture in reserve league.
It tended to work well for a number of years but has changed in the last few due to failures to field so now in some cases reserves play in the league and follow promotion and relegation normally. They do not play in championship though. There are separate reserve championships an A & B depending on what level they are at.

The surprising thing I've gathered here is the 24 graded senior players. Surely there are boys out there who are not getting enough chances to play. They'd be graded senior but not make the team and thus have no outlet - that can't be a good thing surely.

In the example this year of Clann Eireann 5 of those would have been with the county who played little if any league football so in theory working off 19 players would been plenty of football to go around.

That's a fair enough take on it but if there's a club grading 24 with only 1 or 2 county players then your still leaving 7 or 8 players 'hoping' to get a game week on week.
It could be the reason clubs grade players who are out of the country or long term injured as has been suggested. 

I think 24 is a reasonable number to work off if you had no county men, injuries, suspension, a lad maybe away at uni and misses start of league.  I would imagine there's plenty of junior sides working off that number and finding it tough going.

[Gael-in-exile]

Maybe I'm wrong but are the 24 not restricted to senior only? This would there not be a boy graded who may never start senior but be unable to play reserve, and therefore maybe missing huge amounts of football?

[ranch]

I personally don't like Lissummon's exact proposal although I do understand their reasons. I do think a junior b championship is a good idea but maybe just creating another championship was the way to go. Something did need to be done for 2025 as there was a possibility for the junior championship to have over 20 teams.
I like the idea of seconds teams and fully support their involvement on league football especially. I'd prefer if they played in the reserve championship, and have always thought this should be the case. It will now become a bit messy with the leagues and championships linked but some teams can't play in the championship etc. I do think in a few years time we'll see a proposal completely banning seconds teams from the junior and intermediate championships. If this happens it should be coupled with a removal of the link between league and championship.

[general_lee]

A Junior B Championship is a good idea in principle but making it exclusively for 2nds teams is utter idiocy as is the limit on 3 2nds teams in Junior.  There are one or two junior teams that would struggle against most reserve sides in the county and would be better suited to actually playing teams closer to their level, rather than getting absolutely massacred in the championship (one of the reasons put forward supporting the Lissummon motion). 2nds teams should be allowed to find their level whether that be rooted to the bottom of junior or challenging intermediate teams.

[tonto1888]

A Junior B Championship is a good idea in principle but making it exclusively for 2nds teams is utter idiocy as is the limit on 3 2nds teams in Junior.  There are one or two junior teams that would struggle against most reserve sides in the county and would be better suited to actually playing teams closer to their level, rather than getting absolutely massacred in the championship (one of the reasons put forward supporting the Lissummon motion). 2nds teams should be allowed to find their level whether that be rooted to the bottom of junior or challenging intermediate teams.

Have to agree with this

[ranch]

I can't say I agree although I do understand the point and can see why many people would have that view. My point of view is that the junior championship should be competed for by junior clubs only, the same applies to intermediate as well.
Other people are of the view that junior level teams should have the opportunity to compete at that level, which is fair enough. If your club has the playing resources to enter two teams into the club championships then I don't blame them. In my opinion however each club should only be able to enter one team into the club championships - if you've the resources for another team then there should be a reserve championship that caters to that - I don't mean the current reserve championship that is just run off on weeknights, but a proper one that runs alongside the senior, intermediate and junior championships. This isn't a view I've formed over the past year or two on the back of CE's success at junior, but something I've always believed. It's just become more relevant in the past few years as more clubs explore the possibility of a second team entering the All County League set up (which I am in favour of btw).

[general_lee]

if you've the resources for another team then there should be a reserve championship that caters to that - I don't mean the current reserve championship that is just run off on weeknights, but a proper one that runs alongside the senior, intermediate and junior championships.

Surely this is what this new Junior B Championship is?

[ranch]

if you've the resources for another team then there should be a reserve championship that caters to that - I don't mean the current reserve championship that is just run off on weeknights, but a proper one that runs alongside the senior, intermediate and junior championships.

Surely this is what this new Junior B Championship is?

You know full well that it's far from what I've suggested. A proper reserve championship system for all reserve teams is certainly not what the new junior b will be.