Armagh Club football & hurling

[general_lee]

How many seconds teams have won the junior? 2 by my count from memory?

Going by Wikipedia: Clans in 1968, Cross in 2002 & Clann Éireann in 2023. Cross II reached the final in 2021 and Cullyhanna II were beaten in a replay in 2016.

We did the senior and junior double in 1926....

Fair play. I see Clans also did it in 1968. And Cross again in 2002.

[Jules]

I think what you'll find with II's is when you play them in the league and then in the championship it's not the same teams. Not full 15 but when you can call in 3/4 boys who are fairly handy it makes a big difference at Junior level. Clubs can talk about having 2 different squads and sets of players but a proper Junior club will more than likely have the same 20/22 players playing for them all season.

[ranch]

I see over on Orchardfans that Lissummon have issued a statement re 2nds teams being entered into the Junior League - anyone know where this can be viewed?

It would appear that Dromintee are entering a second team into Junior football for 2025 but I haven't seen any other club confirm they are doing likewise. If existing clubs remain that brings the number to 6 (CÉ, Cross, St Peter's, Killeavy, Madden).

I see both sides of the argument for and against. It may be worth exploring a Junior B championship as many of the weaker Junior teams will feel threatened by increased competition.

I'd be happy to see a junior b championship introduced the way things currently stand.

Ideally I'd prefer if 2nd teams played in a properly run reserve championship that's played at the same time as the other championships. By all means allow them to enter the all county leagues. Only teams eligible to represent the county in Ulster club competition should be competing in the championship set up. CE II won the junior last year and there was barely a whimper out of them at the final whistle. Let smaller clubs get their day in the sun.

In an ideal world all the 2nds & reserve sides would be in their own standalone league and championship. That would require overhauling club football in the county. In reality, reserve football is very much an afterthought for both the county board and most clubs. It gets next to zero publicity or promotion by the county board and every year the championship is forced through in June/July when half the country is away on holidays.

For those clubs with the numbers and talent, why should their players be confined to what is essentially a  pub team competition? So what if CÉ II didn't dance from the rooftops when they won the JFC? They demonstrated this year that they're capable of playing at a much higher level. For some of their players, they might never play senior football - how's that any different to any other junior club player?

At the end of the day it comes down to the fundamental principle of promoting Gaelic games. Why should players be restricted from playing at the highest level because some junior clubs feel threatened? A rising tide lifts all boats, although I don't think any other IIs teams will win a JFC anytime soon.

A reserve championship should be for reserve teams, which is what II's teams are. Play it at the same time as the Junior/Intermediate/Senior and give it the profile it deserves. Have the final before the senior final, and junior can be played before intermediate. This is no different to what you said yourself regarding a properly run reserve championship being a good thing.

If competing in the all county league gives lads more regular football than the reserve league then I'm all for allowing them to do so, but championship is different. This would probably require a de-coupling of league and championship to make it work, something I'd support. I accept however that it's not what the majority support.

The teams who play in the championship should be able to go on to represent the county in Ulster club competition in my opinion. I accept it's something that has happened long before these Ulster and All Ireland competitions existed however and is unlikely to change.

As for your point about some junior clubs feeling threatened, I'm not sure what that's about. As far as I'm aware 2nd's teams have been competing against junior clubs for years without any complaint. They are entitled to have an opinion on it that changes over time though. If they feel it skews the competition when you have Junior clubs competing against a senior club's reserve team then why wouldn't they express that view? You said it yourself in your original comment on the topic that you see both sides of the argument, so it surely shouldn't need much explaining.

[Rufus T Firefly]

How many seconds teams have won the junior? 2 by my count from memory?

Going by Wikipedia: Clans in 1968, Cross in 2002 & Clann Éireann in 2023. Cross II reached the final in 2021 and Cullyhanna II were beaten in a replay in 2016.

We did the senior and junior double in 1926....

As did we in 1957.

[Ethan Tremblay]

I see over on Orchardfans that Lissummon have issued a statement re 2nds teams being entered into the Junior League - anyone know where this can be viewed?

It would appear that Dromintee are entering a second team into Junior football for 2025 but I haven't seen any other club confirm they are doing likewise. If existing clubs remain that brings the number to 6 (CÉ, Cross, St Peter's, Killeavy, Madden).

I see both sides of the argument for and against. It may be worth exploring a Junior B championship as many of the weaker Junior teams will feel threatened by increased competition.

I'd be happy to see a junior b championship introduced the way things currently stand.

Ideally I'd prefer if 2nd teams played in a properly run reserve championship that's played at the same time as the other championships. By all means allow them to enter the all county leagues. Only teams eligible to represent the county in Ulster club competition should be competing in the championship set up. CE II won the junior last year and there was barely a whimper out of them at the final whistle. Let smaller clubs get their day in the sun.

In an ideal world all the 2nds & reserve sides would be in their own standalone league and championship. That would require overhauling club football in the county. In reality, reserve football is very much an afterthought for both the county board and most clubs. It gets next to zero publicity or promotion by the county board and every year the championship is forced through in June/July when half the country is away on holidays.

For those clubs with the numbers and talent, why should their players be confined to what is essentially a  pub team competition? So what if CÉ II didn't dance from the rooftops when they won the JFC? They demonstrated this year that they're capable of playing at a much higher level. For some of their players, they might never play senior football - how's that any different to any other junior club player?

At the end of the day it comes down to the fundamental principle of promoting Gaelic games. Why should players be restricted from playing at the highest level because some junior clubs feel threatened? A rising tide lifts all boats, although I don't think any other IIs teams will win a JFC anytime soon.

A reserve championship should be for reserve teams, which is what II's teams are. Play it at the same time as the Junior/Intermediate/Senior and give it the profile it deserves. Have the final before the senior final, and junior can be played before intermediate. This is no different to what you said yourself regarding a properly run reserve championship being a good thing.

If competing in the all county league gives lads more regular football than the reserve league then I'm all for allowing them to do so, but championship is different. This would probably require a de-coupling of league and championship to make it work, something I'd support. I accept however that it's not what the majority support.

The teams who play in the championship should be able to go on to represent the county in Ulster club competition in my opinion. I accept it's something that has happened long before these Ulster and All Ireland competitions existed however and is unlikely to change.

As for your point about some junior clubs feeling threatened, I'm not sure what that's about. As far as I'm aware 2nd's teams have been competing against junior clubs for years without any complaint. They are entitled to have an opinion on it that changes over time though. If they feel it skews the competition when you have Junior clubs competing against a senior club's reserve team then why wouldn't they express that view? You said it yourself in your original comment on the topic that you see both sides of the argument, so it surely shouldn't need much explaining.

Aye, sort of the point I was trying to make.  A seconds team rarely win the junior championship, so I don't think it is skewing the competition that much?
Unsure how the leagues fair out to be fair, but on the other side of the coin I seen Madden second team got some big losses this year, so it works both ways. 

[general]

Junior league format should be for junior clubs

CE made a mockery of it last year - openly said it was feeding the senior team players.

With such an influx of 2nds teams (already and 5-7 planned next year) there is huge scope for a B Premier Reserve League and championship.

Let the actual junior clubs battle it out for their accolades.

Senior clubs saying reserve leagues don't work yet they will be happy to come in and dominate against junior league teams. If it works with them in the junior leagues then it must work by a stand alone B League.

[ranch]

I see over on Orchardfans that Lissummon have issued a statement re 2nds teams being entered into the Junior League - anyone know where this can be viewed?

It would appear that Dromintee are entering a second team into Junior football for 2025 but I haven't seen any other club confirm they are doing likewise. If existing clubs remain that brings the number to 6 (CÉ, Cross, St Peter's, Killeavy, Madden).

I see both sides of the argument for and against. It may be worth exploring a Junior B championship as many of the weaker Junior teams will feel threatened by increased competition.

I'd be happy to see a junior b championship introduced the way things currently stand.

Ideally I'd prefer if 2nd teams played in a properly run reserve championship that's played at the same time as the other championships. By all means allow them to enter the all county leagues. Only teams eligible to represent the county in Ulster club competition should be competing in the championship set up. CE II won the junior last year and there was barely a whimper out of them at the final whistle. Let smaller clubs get their day in the sun.

In an ideal world all the 2nds & reserve sides would be in their own standalone league and championship. That would require overhauling club football in the county. In reality, reserve football is very much an afterthought for both the county board and most clubs. It gets next to zero publicity or promotion by the county board and every year the championship is forced through in June/July when half the country is away on holidays.

For those clubs with the numbers and talent, why should their players be confined to what is essentially a  pub team competition? So what if CÉ II didn't dance from the rooftops when they won the JFC? They demonstrated this year that they're capable of playing at a much higher level. For some of their players, they might never play senior football - how's that any different to any other junior club player?

At the end of the day it comes down to the fundamental principle of promoting Gaelic games. Why should players be restricted from playing at the highest level because some junior clubs feel threatened? A rising tide lifts all boats, although I don't think any other IIs teams will win a JFC anytime soon.

A reserve championship should be for reserve teams, which is what II's teams are. Play it at the same time as the Junior/Intermediate/Senior and give it the profile it deserves. Have the final before the senior final, and junior can be played before intermediate. This is no different to what you said yourself regarding a properly run reserve championship being a good thing.

If competing in the all county league gives lads more regular football than the reserve league then I'm all for allowing them to do so, but championship is different. This would probably require a de-coupling of league and championship to make it work, something I'd support. I accept however that it's not what the majority support.

The teams who play in the championship should be able to go on to represent the county in Ulster club competition in my opinion. I accept it's something that has happened long before these Ulster and All Ireland competitions existed however and is unlikely to change.

As for your point about some junior clubs feeling threatened, I'm not sure what that's about. As far as I'm aware 2nd's teams have been competing against junior clubs for years without any complaint. They are entitled to have an opinion on it that changes over time though. If they feel it skews the competition when you have Junior clubs competing against a senior club's reserve team then why wouldn't they express that view? You said it yourself in your original comment on the topic that you see both sides of the argument, so it surely shouldn't need much explaining.

Aye, sort of the point I was trying to make.  A seconds team rarely win the junior championship, so I don't think it is skewing the competition that much?
Unsure how the leagues fair out to be fair, but on the other side of the coin I seen Madden second team got some big losses this year, so it works both ways. 

Whether you think it skews it or not isn't really the point. Some junior clubs clearly feel it does, or that it's becoming that way.

My view on it is simple enough. Let seconds teams play league football as it gives lads organised games without the postponements that are rife in the reserve league.

Also give them a properly run reserve championship. Let junior clubs compete against each other for a junior championship. Likewise intermediate.
A senior clubs reserve side winning a junior championship against clubs that are much smaller shouldn't really happen in a well run system.

[general_lee]

I see over on Orchardfans that Lissummon have issued a statement re 2nds teams being entered into the Junior League - anyone know where this can be viewed?

It would appear that Dromintee are entering a second team into Junior football for 2025 but I haven't seen any other club confirm they are doing likewise. If existing clubs remain that brings the number to 6 (CÉ, Cross, St Peter's, Killeavy, Madden).

I see both sides of the argument for and against. It may be worth exploring a Junior B championship as many of the weaker Junior teams will feel threatened by increased competition.

I'd be happy to see a junior b championship introduced the way things currently stand.

Ideally I'd prefer if 2nd teams played in a properly run reserve championship that's played at the same time as the other championships. By all means allow them to enter the all county leagues. Only teams eligible to represent the county in Ulster club competition should be competing in the championship set up. CE II won the junior last year and there was barely a whimper out of them at the final whistle. Let smaller clubs get their day in the sun.

In an ideal world all the 2nds & reserve sides would be in their own standalone league and championship. That would require overhauling club football in the county. In reality, reserve football is very much an afterthought for both the county board and most clubs. It gets next to zero publicity or promotion by the county board and every year the championship is forced through in June/July when half the country is away on holidays.

For those clubs with the numbers and talent, why should their players be confined to what is essentially a  pub team competition? So what if CÉ II didn't dance from the rooftops when they won the JFC? They demonstrated this year that they're capable of playing at a much higher level. For some of their players, they might never play senior football - how's that any different to any other junior club player?

At the end of the day it comes down to the fundamental principle of promoting Gaelic games. Why should players be restricted from playing at the highest level because some junior clubs feel threatened? A rising tide lifts all boats, although I don't think any other IIs teams will win a JFC anytime soon.

A reserve championship should be for reserve teams, which is what II's teams are. Play it at the same time as the Junior/Intermediate/Senior and give it the profile it deserves. Have the final before the senior final, and junior can be played before intermediate. This is no different to what you said yourself regarding a properly run reserve championship being a good thing.

If competing in the all county league gives lads more regular football than the reserve league then I'm all for allowing them to do so, but championship is different. This would probably require a de-coupling of league and championship to make it work, something I'd support. I accept however that it's not what the majority support.

The teams who play in the championship should be able to go on to represent the county in Ulster club competition in my opinion. I accept it's something that has happened long before these Ulster and All Ireland competitions existed however and is unlikely to change.

As for your point about some junior clubs feeling threatened, I'm not sure what that's about. As far as I'm aware 2nd's teams have been competing against junior clubs for years without any complaint. They are entitled to have an opinion on it that changes over time though. If they feel it skews the competition when you have Junior clubs competing against a senior club's reserve team then why wouldn't they express that view? You said it yourself in your original comment on the topic that you see both sides of the argument, so it surely shouldn't need much explaining.

I agree, in an ideal world there'd be a proper, standalone Reserve/'B' championship and it would be a fairly strong competition at that. The Junior teams could tear away in their Junior championship and they'd have nothing to worry about with 2nds teams.

I am a realist though, we are too far gone and I can't see any sort overhaul of the current setup in order to placate a couple of junior clubs - especially as you and others have pointed out that bigger clubs have been entering (and on the rare occasion winning) the junior championship for around a century.

This is the bit where I sympathise with the big boys - if a club has 50+ adult men wanting to represent their club and the best on offer is a half a dozen (if they're lucky) games against other (weaker, thrown together, sometimes recreational) reserve sides that they'll compete against for a rushed out championship in July, why should they not be in the Junior championship? Why should those players not be allowed to progress into intermediate if they're good enough? Why should they be limited to a standalone reserve championship?

[general_lee]

CE made a mockery of it last year - openly said it was feeding the senior team players.

You could argue that they made a mockery of the Intermediate championship as well. Honest question: if you were from CE would you be happy for your players to be confined to a reserve championship every year?

[Ethan Tremblay]

I see over on Orchardfans that Lissummon have issued a statement re 2nds teams being entered into the Junior League - anyone know where this can be viewed?

It would appear that Dromintee are entering a second team into Junior football for 2025 but I haven't seen any other club confirm they are doing likewise. If existing clubs remain that brings the number to 6 (CÉ, Cross, St Peter's, Killeavy, Madden).

I see both sides of the argument for and against. It may be worth exploring a Junior B championship as many of the weaker Junior teams will feel threatened by increased competition.

I'd be happy to see a junior b championship introduced the way things currently stand.

Ideally I'd prefer if 2nd teams played in a properly run reserve championship that's played at the same time as the other championships. By all means allow them to enter the all county leagues. Only teams eligible to represent the county in Ulster club competition should be competing in the championship set up. CE II won the junior last year and there was barely a whimper out of them at the final whistle. Let smaller clubs get their day in the sun.

In an ideal world all the 2nds & reserve sides would be in their own standalone league and championship. That would require overhauling club football in the county. In reality, reserve football is very much an afterthought for both the county board and most clubs. It gets next to zero publicity or promotion by the county board and every year the championship is forced through in June/July when half the country is away on holidays.

For those clubs with the numbers and talent, why should their players be confined to what is essentially a  pub team competition? So what if CÉ II didn't dance from the rooftops when they won the JFC? They demonstrated this year that they're capable of playing at a much higher level. For some of their players, they might never play senior football - how's that any different to any other junior club player?

At the end of the day it comes down to the fundamental principle of promoting Gaelic games. Why should players be restricted from playing at the highest level because some junior clubs feel threatened? A rising tide lifts all boats, although I don't think any other IIs teams will win a JFC anytime soon.

A reserve championship should be for reserve teams, which is what II's teams are. Play it at the same time as the Junior/Intermediate/Senior and give it the profile it deserves. Have the final before the senior final, and junior can be played before intermediate. This is no different to what you said yourself regarding a properly run reserve championship being a good thing.

If competing in the all county league gives lads more regular football than the reserve league then I'm all for allowing them to do so, but championship is different. This would probably require a de-coupling of league and championship to make it work, something I'd support. I accept however that it's not what the majority support.

The teams who play in the championship should be able to go on to represent the county in Ulster club competition in my opinion. I accept it's something that has happened long before these Ulster and All Ireland competitions existed however and is unlikely to change.

As for your point about some junior clubs feeling threatened, I'm not sure what that's about. As far as I'm aware 2nd's teams have been competing against junior clubs for years without any complaint. They are entitled to have an opinion on it that changes over time though. If they feel it skews the competition when you have Junior clubs competing against a senior club's reserve team then why wouldn't they express that view? You said it yourself in your original comment on the topic that you see both sides of the argument, so it surely shouldn't need much explaining.

I agree, in an ideal world there'd be a proper, standalone Reserve/'B' championship and it would be a fairly strong competition at that. The Junior teams could tear away in their Junior championship and they'd have nothing to worry about with 2nds teams.

I am a realist though, we are too far gone and I can't see any sort overhaul of the current setup in order to placate a couple of junior clubs - especially as you and others have pointed out that bigger clubs have been entering (and on the rare occasion winning) the junior championship for around a century.

This is the bit where I sympathise with the big boys - if a club has 50+ adult men wanting to represent their club and the best on offer is a half a dozen (if they're lucky) games against other (weaker, thrown together, sometimes recreational) reserve sides that they'll compete against for a rushed out championship in July, why should they not be in the Junior championship? Why should those players not be allowed to progress into intermediate if they're good enough? Why should they be limited to a standalone reserve championship?

Thats it, we have been lauding CE and how they have got a good structure in place to keep young adults involved in the game, but there would be objections to giving them meaningful competition?

My own club had a run of success in the not too distant past and a lot of players never got game time bar B games.  Players quit for other teams or  they quit football altogether, and my club could be doing with said players now.   

[ClubScene13]

Do you not have a Division 1 Reserve league? Fairly well ran in Tyrone there doesn't be many games conceded across a 15 game season and reserve championship played midweek in summer. Do Armagh not have enough clubs that can field a reserve team to provide something similar to this and save reserve teams entering junior?

[statto]

The reserve games being on a wednesday night hasn't helped things either with the majority of games played on Friday nights.If a few lads are unavailable from last senior game a senior manager isn't going to want a lad playing a game wednesday night knowing they going to play a senior game on the Friday.

[general_lee]

Do you not have a Division 1 Reserve league? Fairly well ran in Tyrone there doesn't be many games conceded across a 15 game season and reserve championship played midweek in summer. Do Armagh not have enough clubs that can field a reserve team to provide something similar to this and save reserve teams entering junior?

The reserve leagues were split into groups this year. Technically there was a Division 1 (in name only: 1A & 1B) split geographically and contained Intermediate and Junior reserve sides.

Even if all the senior reserve sides entered into one standalone league, not all of them field a strong team; so it doesn't really solve the issue of providing meaningful, competitive football for the clubs that do.

[bogball88]

Any word how the team holiday went over in Miami? Did they get much pre season training done?

[tonto1888]

Any word how the team holiday went over in Miami? Did they get much pre season training done?

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