Belfast rioting over removal of Union Jack

[deiseach]

I'm sure the next Robert Hamill will appreciate the PSNI's long game.

I think that is an unfair assessment. There would be IMVHO a bigger potential for innocent death due to escalation of the violence at the time than there may well be now.

There's little evidence that the PSNI are ever willing to confront the forces of Loyalism. I admit it's difficult. Is there any other police force in the developed world that has to deal with mainstream politicians who are willing to give tacit support to rioters? But I think this idea that there is a strategy of contain-and-conquer is giving them way too much credit.

[mylestheslasher]

I'm sure the next Robert Hamill will appreciate the PSNI's long game.

If you were chief of police how would you handle it?

[Milltown Row2]

I'm sure the next Robert Hamill will appreciate the PSNI's long game.

I think that is an unfair assessment. There would be IMVHO a bigger potential for innocent death due to escalation of the violence at the time than there may well be now.

There's little evidence that the PSNI are ever willing to confront the forces of Loyalism. I admit it's difficult. Is there any other police force in the developed world that has to deal with mainstream politicians who are willing to give tacit support to rioters? But I think this idea that there is a strategy of contain-and-conquer is giving them way too much credit.

Maybe we are giving them too much credit, but it is a better way to deal with things, I was up on the Anderstownn road many years when the police killed someone at close range with a plastic bullet during a sit down outside SF headquarters (cops were trying to arrest someone inside), even as kids we knew there was going to be a riot, well it kick off something shocking. If we go back to that style of policing then we will certainly end up back to the bad old days, well some here think it was great

[Puckoon]

But I think this idea that there is a strategy of contain-and-conquer is giving them way too much credit.

I might agree with you in so far that it may not have ever been an official strategy from the outset. There is a precedent with this if I remember correctly in that a year or two ago during some of the summer riots - they let it slide at the time and then a month later began rounding up those who could be identified via CCTV? Im open to correction on the actuality of those riots and how they were handled.

Lets not lose sight of the fact that there are those who are determined to kill still in this divided society. On one hand we have Robert Hamill being referenced as a stick with which to beat the PSNI - and not so long ago we have a young catholic member of said force - joining up to try and stem the tide, make a difference - and he's car bombed to his death. Blame is an easy game and Northern Ireland politics and political opinion are rife with it.

[deiseach]

I'm sure the next Robert Hamill will appreciate the PSNI's long game.

If you were chief of police how would you handle it?

I'd be willing to use more force. For crying out loud, it was utterly insane that a handful of protesters were able to get the Crusaders-Cliftonville called off. Nigel Dodds complained about "heavy-handed" policing even though there were only three arrests! I hope the police don't come to regret allowing the protesters to effectively behave with impunity as the days get drier and the evenings longer.

[deiseach]

A question comes to mind in all of this. Is Willie Frazer the kind of character around whom mainstream Unionism can unite if the circumstances were right? He's always struck me as a Ruairí Ó Brádaigh-style figure, full of bluster but no support even those inclined to extremism. Yeah, people may not like the whole fleg thing, but they don't like the prophet of doom even more. Am I underestimating the sympathy he might receive among the populace?

[Rossfan]

. Nigel Dodds complained about "heavy-handed" policing

And therein lies the real problem with the so called leaders of Unionism reverting to type and pandering to the lowest common denominator of extremist.
Of course they unleashed the forces of Neanderthalism in the first place by calling for protests against the City Council's decision which was really a misguided method of trying to win back the Westminster seat for the Invader of Clontibret from Alliance.
Obviously the DUPes attempt to win over the Catholic population , which seemed to be official policy last Autumn, is now on hold 

[AQMP]

A question comes to mind in all of this. Is Willie Frazer the kind of character around whom mainstream Unionism can unite if the circumstances were right? He's always struck me as a Ruairí Ó Brádaigh-style figure, full of bluster but no support even those inclined to extremism. Yeah, people may not like the whole fleg thing, but they don't like the prophet of doom even more. Am I underestimating the sympathy he might receive among the populace?

I don't think so deiseach, or at least the circumstances would need to be pretty dire.  The O'Bradaigh comparison is reasonable though I think even Ruairi spoke slightly more sense than Wullie.  Most Unionists I know regard Wullie as a bit of a headcase.

[deiseach]

. Nigel Dodds complained about "heavy-handed" policing

And therein lies the real problem with the so called leaders of Unionism reverting to type and pandering to the lowest common denominator of extremist.
Of course they unleashed the forces of Neanderthalism in the first place by calling for protests against the City Council's decision which was really a misguided method of trying to win back the Westminster seat for the Invader of Clontibret from Alliance.
Obviously the DUPes attempt to win over the Catholic population , which seemed to be official policy last Autumn, is now on hold 

Indeed. My concern is that all decisions taken with respect to Loyalism are informed by the idea that their violence is 'reactive'. Throughout the Troubles, it was mainstream - even down here -that if only the beastly Provos went away then the Loyalists would too. It's an idea that won't die in the face of the likes of Wullie and I fear even the PSNI think that if you don't prod (pun unintended) the beast then it won't wake up. Although now that I think about it, maybe I'm the one still fighting the battles of the past...

[theticklemister]

A question comes to mind in all of this. Is Willie Frazer the kind of character around whom mainstream Unionism can unite if the circumstances were right? He's always struck me as a Ruairí Ó Brádaigh-style figure, full of bluster but no support even those inclined to extremism. Yeah, people may not like the whole fleg thing, but they don't like the prophet of doom even more. Am I underestimating the sympathy he might receive among the populace?

I don't think so deiseach, or at least the circumstances would need to be pretty dire.  The O'Bradaigh comparison is reasonable though I think even Ruairi spoke slightly more sense than Wullie.  Most Unionists I know regard Wullie as a bit of a headcase.

O'Bradaigh is nothing like Frazer. O'Bradaigh had strong ideals and stood by them while other people within the Republican movement opted to change like the wind and continue to do so. Frazer is nothing but a headless chicken who takes his self-righteousness as a given to lead the Protestant and Unionist people to the promise land.

[deiseach]

O'Bradaigh is nothing like Frazer. O'Bradaigh had strong ideals and stood by them while other people within the Republican movement opted to change like the wind and continue to do so. Frazer is nothing but a headless chicken who takes his self-righteousness as a given to lead the Protestant and Unionist people to the promise land.

I wouldn't say they were comparable in terms of their ideas. I was thinking more about the levels of support they enjoy(ed) among their target audience.

[stew]

This is madness, the pigs do nothing whilst all this was raging and now that things have quietened they start to stir it all up again. Fraizer will never be charged with anything and all the PSNI have achieved is to lend support to the "fleg" suggestions that the state is now against them and their "culture".

Dammed if they do and dammed if they don't?

They will have the same supporters now as they had at the height of the fleg protesting malarkey so there is no real difference lifting them now as it would have been then, other than the fact that hopefully they have some hard evidence of them organising these illegal protests.

History will show that if you had have went heavy handed and beat them off the streets they would have had more sympathy from their own and more numbers, also the politicans on their side would have baked them up. So I think on this issue you are wrong

History will also  have shown that they had no problems beating 7 shades of shite out of the Catholics and they they used both rubber bullets and Plastic bullets as well as truncheons and water cannon, not so much agin the unionists/loyalists!


You are the one that is wrong.

[give her dixie]

Jamie Bryson, who is currently on the run, has released a video statement.

You couldn't make this stuff up.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ra09nN5I7sI

[Maguire01]

Someone has handed Baggot his arse in a bag, that's why we are seeing all this belated activity. Watch out for a change of tactics from the PSNI.

To be fair, as ineffective as the PSNI has appeared, Baggot has said all along that this was his approach. Let's just hope it's effective.

At the same time, I don't agree with the police standing by whilst as few as 10 people block a main road - there must be some kind of middle-ground.

[theticklemister]

Jamie Bryson, who is currently on the run, has released a video statement.

You couldn't make this stuff up.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ra09nN5I7sI

Another update from one of the comedy duo; keep er coming to buck!