Bit of a sticky issue, but in a strange way, I think we could say that its harder now to win the Anglo Celt up in Ulster than it is to win Sam, even though Armagh have recently won the handiest ever Ulster title they will ever win by defeating a poor Cavan team, a Down team that simply did not show up for their S-F and a Fermanagh team that got stage fright and then couldn't kick over 21 yard frees...
With 5 teams from 8 in the All-Ireland Q-F's, although many imploded at that point, I feel that Ulster football is as strong as ever in 2008
I have no doubt Ulster is currently the most competive province. But realistically other than Tyrone which other Ulster team could of claimed SAM this year?
Personally I would make a case for Monaghan but to be honest I dont think they had what it takes to go the whole way this year. Donegal, Armagh, Fermanagh at this moment in time do not have what is takes to claim SAM either............no doubt they can win Ulster alright, So then how can it be harder to win SAM :o
Quote from: sammymaguire on September 23, 2008, 01:41:29 PM
Bit of a sticky issue, but in a strange way, I think we could say that its harder now to win the Anglo Celt up in Ulster than it is to win Sam, even though Armagh have recently won the handiest ever Ulster title they will ever win by defeating a poor Cavan team, a Down team that simply did not show up for their S-F and a Fermanagh team that got stage fright and then couldn't kick over 21 yard frees...
With 5 teams from 8 in the All-Ireland Q-F's, although many imploded at that point, I feel that Ulster football is as strong as ever in 2008
Ulster is the strongest province but was stronger in 2001-2005 period with the Armagh and Tyrone both being real contenders and winning All-Irelands.
I feel that Monaghan is probably now the 2nd favourite team in Ulster to lift Sam but are well off it basically at the same level as Dublin.
The real question is which is worse Leinster or Connaught ?
I think a case could be made for Monaghan, Derry, Armagh, Donegal and obviously Tyrone, Fermanagh and Down have not got the strength in depth and I think if any of the forementioned teams had the management of Mickey Harte and his crew there is no reason why they could not make a push to go the whole way. The other provinces do not have the same competitve edge, look at Dublin's downfall when they leave Leinster
Quote from: heineken_on_tap on September 23, 2008, 02:03:49 PM
I have no doubt Ulster is currently the most competive province. But realistically other than Tyrone which other Ulster team could of claimed SAM this year?
Personally I would make a case for Monaghan but to be honest I dont think they had what it takes to go the whole way this year. Donegal, Armagh, Fermanagh at this moment in time do not have what is takes to claim SAM either............no doubt they can win Ulster alright, So then how can it be harder to win SAM :o
Armagh would have beaten dublin in a similar manner to tyrone. if they'd not gone to sleep against wexford it'd have been some semi with tyrone.
Quote from: The GAA on September 23, 2008, 02:13:29 PM
Quote from: heineken_on_tap on September 23, 2008, 02:03:49 PM
I have no doubt Ulster is currently the most competive province. But realistically other than Tyrone which other Ulster team could of claimed SAM this year?
Personally I would make a case for Monaghan but to be honest I dont think they had what it takes to go the whole way this year. Donegal, Armagh, Fermanagh at this moment in time do not have what is takes to claim SAM either............no doubt they can win Ulster alright, So then how can it be harder to win SAM :o
Armagh would have beaten dublin in a similar manner to tyrone. if they'd not gone to sleep against wexford it'd have been some semi with tyrone.
Very doubtful , that Armagh team looks tired and lacking idea's. Armagh never really looked comfortible in that game and i don't think i was a matter of them going too sleep.
I don't think you are giving enough credit to Wexford there in fairness The GAA.. Ultimatly Tyrone would of beaten Armagh, going by your logic!
I think that analysis of armagh is fairly lazy lads. armagh were far superior to wexford on that day but missed a glut of scoring chances and fell to a sucker punch goal.
I wouldn't have put much money on armagh (who'd have been going into the game as ulster champs and unbeaten) losing to tyrone. fellow ulstr teams have a better understanding of how to deal with the tyrone gameplan than dublin, kerry, etc.
Sure it is all if, buts and maybes at this stage. Ultimately Armagh were not good enough this year.
You're having a laugh !
Quote from: heineken_on_tap on September 23, 2008, 02:48:35 PM
Sure it is all if, buts and maybes at this stage. Ultimately Armagh were not good enough this year.
bit like this:
Quote from: heineken_on_tap on September 23, 2008, 02:03:49 PM
I have no doubt Ulster is currently the most competive province. But realistically other than Tyrone which other Ulster team could of claimed SAM this year?
Personally I would make a case for Monaghan but to be honest I dont think they had what it takes to go the whole way this year. Donegal, Armagh, Fermanagh at this moment in time do not have what is takes to claim SAM either............no doubt they can win Ulster alright, So then how can it be harder to win SAM :o
where you began the hypothesising?
Ulster is definitely the tightest province but not necessarily the strongest. It has more teams on a par but I think that's it.
Tyrone stand out with Monaghan and Armagh probably the next best two then Fermanagh, Derry , Donegal/Down, Cavan, Antrim.
Cork would best anything in Ulster except Tyrone as would Mayo and probably Galway. Wexford did and Dublin would too.
Quote from: The GAA on September 23, 2008, 03:11:39 PM
Quote from: heineken_on_tap on September 23, 2008, 02:48:35 PM
Sure it is all if, buts and maybes at this stage. Ultimately Armagh were not good enough this year.
bit like this:
Quote from: heineken_on_tap on September 23, 2008, 02:03:49 PM
I have no doubt Ulster is currently the most competive province. But realistically other than Tyrone which other Ulster team could of claimed SAM this year?
Personally I would make a case for Monaghan but to be honest I dont think they had what it takes to go the whole way this year. Donegal, Armagh, Fermanagh at this moment in time do not have what is takes to claim SAM either............no doubt they can win Ulster alright, So then how can it be harder to win SAM :o
where you began the hypothesising?
Not really because you are saying IF Armagh had beaten Wexford then they would of beaten Dublin. I dont see any basis for that assumption. My point is in reply to sammy maguire that it is harder to win Ulster than SAM, I wouldn't agree with that. Armagh won Ulster but were not good enough to go the whole way. That is fact.
No, it's there in black and white - you said that despite the strength of the province no other ulster team could have won sam.
i don't see any basis for that assumption
i think on any given day most of the top 10 teams in the country can beat each other. Apart from the curse that kerry have on us in mayo and the one that tyrone have on kerry in finals.
Well the basis is that it is 2 days after the AI and any other Ulster team didnt win it, Tyrone did. The basis of my assumption earlier in the year was the other Ulster teams were not strong enough. So I have a major advantage making my point now.
No I said I personally at the start of the year gave Monaghan a good chance. Others would of tipped other teams and I have no issue with that but I didnt fancy Armagh, Donegal, Derry to go the distance. In saying that I would not have backed against them winning Ulster.
I give up
Good lad, always better when ur wrong ;)
Its written front of you how you opened the agument, based on assumtions and your opinions (which cetainly mean little to me). when someone responds i kind, based on opinion, you dismiss it because "Sure it is all if, buts and maybes at this stage".
Do you even remember what your argument is?
Martin Breheny made the point recently that the teams Armagh beat in the Ulster Championship this year (Cavan, Down & Fermanagh) were placed at 8th, 6th and 7th among the Ulster contenders at the start of the Championship. Maybe this puts their loss to Wexford in perspective.
The GAA, relax there will ya :D I took exception to one thing you said, it is in bold below
Armagh would have beaten dublin in a similar manner to tyrone. if they'd not gone to sleep against wexford it'd have been some semi with tyrone.
IMO this is an obnoxious, arrogant statement. Tyrone players admit that it was a perfect performance against the dubs, days like that i.e. when you destroy the opposition don't come along very often. Your opinion that Armagh would of done the same is extremely optimistic
Quote
I think that analysis of armagh is fairly lazy lads. armagh were far superior to wexford on that day but missed a glut of scoring chances and fell to a sucker punch goal.
I wouldn't have put much money on armagh (who'd have been going into the game as ulster champs and unbeaten) losing to tyrone. fellow ulstr teams have a better understanding of how to deal with the tyrone gameplan than dublin, kerry, etc.
I agree with the above in the sense that they were comfortable against Wexford for 63/64 minutes until the goal, then Wexford hit a purple patch at a critical stage. I don't think Armagh would have beat Tyrone though, no fluency in their side this year or last year for that matter.
Armagh could have rattled Dublin's cage. We beat Dublin well in the league, at the time everyone said that Dublin weren't bothered etc, but the suspicion remains that Dublin were vulnerable to a team that was up for it. That said Armagh would not have beaten Tyrone in the form they were in against Dublin.
Quote from: heineken_on_tap on September 23, 2008, 04:37:27 PM
The GAA, relax there will ya :D I took exception to one thing you said, it is in bold below
Armagh would have beaten dublin in a similar manner to tyrone. if they'd not gone to sleep against wexford it'd have been some semi with tyrone.
IMO this is an obnoxious, arrogant statement. Tyrone players admit that it was a perfect performance against the dubs, days like that i.e. when you destroy the opposition don't come along very often. Your opinion that Armagh would of done the same is extremely optimistic
so now you change what you
meant
I would rate the top 10 teams in Ireland as follows;
1. Tyrone 12
2. Kerry 11
3. Cork 10
4. Armagh 9
5. Monaghan 8
6. Galway 7
7. Derry 6
8. Dublin 5
9. Mayo 4
10. Fermanagh 3
11. Wexford 2
12. Donegal 1
Controversial I know, most would put Wexford, Kildare, Laois, Meath etc ahead of Fermanagh/Mayo but I still reckon this more or less the top 12 and with that in mind, putting it into points;
Ulster 39
Munster 21
Connacht 11
Leinster 7
Quote from: The GAA on September 23, 2008, 05:21:13 PM
Quote from: heineken_on_tap on September 23, 2008, 04:37:27 PM
The GAA, relax there will ya :D I took exception to one thing you said, it is in bold below
Armagh would have beaten dublin in a similar manner to tyrone. if they'd not gone to sleep against wexford it'd have been some semi with tyrone.
IMO this is an obnoxious, arrogant statement. Tyrone players admit that it was a perfect performance against the dubs, days like that i.e. when you destroy the opposition don't come along very often. Your opinion that Armagh would of done the same is extremely optimistic
so now you change what you meant
What have I changed exactly?
Quote from: sammymaguire on September 23, 2008, 05:28:06 PM
I would rate the top 10 teams in Ireland as follows;
1. Tyrone 12
2. Kerry 11
3. Cork 10
4. Armagh 9
5. Monaghan 8
6. Galway 7
7. Derry 6
8. Dublin 5
9. Mayo 4
10. Fermanagh 3
11. Wexford 2
12. Donegal 1
Controversial I know, most would put Wexford, Kildare, Laois, Meath etc ahead of Fermanagh/Mayo but I still reckon this more or less the top 12 and with that in mind, putting it into points;
Ulster 39
Munster 21
Connacht 11
Leinster 7
What have Derry done recently to merit such as high ranking? And Donegal,Wexford what have they done this decade?
Quote from: heineken_on_tap on September 23, 2008, 02:48:35 PM
Sure it is all if, buts and maybes at this stage. Ultimately Armagh were not good enough this year.
Spot on. Realistically it will be a while before they challenge for a second Sam.
More likelihood of us getting our 6th ;D
QuoteWhat have Derry done recently to merit such as high ranking?
League champions perhaps? Donegal too won the League recently.
Sammy that top ten is ridiculously biased.
Why would Westmeath not be in it either?
Kildare beat Fermanagh?
What have Armagh or Derry done to be above Dublin?(or Monaghan for that matter)
Mayo also should be higher.
This is the best thread ever on Gaaboard.
Monaghan 5th and nobody blinks an eye ???
FWIW this would be my view of the 12
1.Tyrone
2. Kerry
3. Cork
4. Galway
5. Dublin
6. Wexford
7. Armagh
8. Monaghan
9. Mayo
10. Kildare
11. Down
12. Fermanagh or Westmeath
Quote from: Gnevin on September 23, 2008, 06:54:40 PM
What have Derry done recently to merit such as high ranking? And Donegal,Wexford what have they done this decade?
For some reason, people always feel the need to rate Derry higher than they actually perform. Although you could argue that Derry and Donegal won the past 2 leagues and both were put out this year by Monaghan - a team many are also now ranking in the top 10.
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 23, 2008, 07:55:22 PM
Why would Westmeath not be in it either?
They probably should.
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 23, 2008, 07:55:22 PM
What have Armagh or Derry done to be above Dublin?(or Monaghan for that matter)
Well Armagh beat Dublin well in the league. Dublin got hammered by Tyrone, so they're no great shakes. Monaghan went doen narrowly to Kerry and drew with Dublin in the league.
Again, Dublin are a bit like Derry - the hype and the odds are never matched by the results at the end of the summer.
It's hard to be too scientific about these things at the same time. Given that Dublin beat Wexford by 23 points and Tyrone beat Dublin by 12 points, on paper Tyrone should have beaten Wexford by 35 points. But it doesn't quite work like that.
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 23, 2008, 07:55:22 PM
Mayo also should be higher.
Having contested two all ireland finals in 04 and 06 a league final in 07 and a league semifinal in 06 and 05 you would imagine we would be higher all right.
Quote from: ildanach on September 23, 2008, 10:14:25 PM
Having contested ?two all ireland finals in 04 and 06 a league final in 07 and a league semifinal in 06 and 05 you would imagine we would be higher all right.
Quote from: The GAA on September 23, 2008, 02:37:42 PM
I think that analysis of armagh is fairly lazy lads. armagh were far superior to wexford on that day but missed a glut of scoring chances and fell to a sucker punch goal.
I heard this arguement from the RTE commentators on the day of the match too.
If Armagh were such a superior team - they woulod have won! The fact that they couldnt finish off the scores and lost the games makes them the inferior team on the day!
Armagh just can't get enough scores at the moment to put teams away. They've been caught by "sucker punches" by Donegal, Derry and Wexford in the last year alone. It doesn't matter if you physically and possession-wise batter the other side - if you can't get more than two or three points in front, you're always leaving yourself vulnerable to a goal or a good spell by the other side. For example, Donegal got a very, very lucky goal to beat them last year, but despite being overrun by Armagh for 20 minutes of that second half, Donegal were only two points behind with a five or six minutes to go. If Devenney's shot had been a few inches further on and went over the bar instead of through Hearty's fingers, Donegal would have been only a point behind with two minutes left and all the momentum with them. Derry caught them late last year in similar circumstances, and as did Wexford this year. Armagh might dominate matches, but that doesn't mean they deserve to win them.
Its hard to know how to rate anyone outside the top few. All much of a muchness to me and thus the rankings outside of Tyrone, Kerry and maybe Dublin would be very fluid from year to year even with basically the same sets of players in all cases.
Tyrone /Kerry
Dublin/Cork/Wexford/Galway/Monaghan/Armagh
Derry/Fermanagh/Mayo/Down/Donegal/Westmeath/Kildare/Limerick/Meath
Other Tyrone and Kerry (who have won nothing), the next tier should include the provincial winners who achieved something and who subsequently did not have a further opportunity to show what they could do after a defeat. Wexford might get in there too for their performances and perhaps the League champions too.
Quote from: Main Street on September 23, 2008, 09:37:16 PM
This is the best thread ever on Gaaboard.
Monaghan 5th and nobody blinks an eye ???
FWIW this would be my view of the 12
1.Tyrone
2. Kerry
3. Cork
4. Galway
5. Dublin
6. Wexford
7. Armagh
8. Monaghan
9. Mayo
10. Kildare
11. Down
12. Fermanagh or Westmeath
kildare and down are not ahead of fermanagh. derry could be included ahead of either of them too.
QuoteI think that analysis of armagh is fairly lazy lads. armagh were far superior to wexford on that day but missed a glut of scoring chances and fell to a sucker punch goal.
That's similarly lazy analysis since Wexford totally dominated Armagh for the last 10mins. If the game had gone on longer Armagh would prob have lost by more as their legs were gone. In a similar note, how many times have Armagh been getting beaten in Championship game only to win by a sucker punch or late couple of points? And how many times have they come from behind to snatch an undeserved draw in recent years?
Wexford probably spared Armagh getting the hiding from Tyrone that they were well overdue.
Quote from: under the bar on September 24, 2008, 09:32:13 AM
QuoteI think that analysis of armagh is fairly lazy lads. armagh were far superior to wexford on that day but missed a glut of scoring chances and fell to a sucker punch goal.
That's similarly lazy analysis since Wexford totally dominated Armagh for the last 10mins. If the game had gone on longer Armagh would prob have lost by more as their legs were gone. In a similar note, how many times have Armagh been getting beaten in Championship game only to win by a sucker punch or late couple of points? And how many times have they come from behind to snatch an undeserved draw in recent years?
Wexford probably spared Armagh getting the hiding from Tyrone that they were well overdue.
last 10 mins, the game is 70 mins long.
u tell us when armagh snatched undeserved victories. they didnt deserve to win that day but u seem to have an issue with armagh.
Or took a hiding
Quote from: SidelineKick on September 24, 2008, 08:57:22 AM
Quote from: Main Street on September 23, 2008, 09:37:16 PM
This is the best thread ever on Gaaboard.
Monaghan 5th and nobody blinks an eye ???
FWIW this would be my view of the 12
1.Tyrone
2. Kerry
3. Cork
4. Galway
5. Dublin
6. Wexford
7. Armagh
8. Monaghan
9. Mayo
10. Kildare
11. Down
12. Fermanagh or Westmeath
kildare and down are not ahead of fermanagh. derry could be included ahead of either of them too.
Down did knock the All-Ireland champions out of Ulster, so i think we deserve some credit for that. And, although its a warm up competition we did beat Derry in the Final of the McKenna up (actually we completely trashed them)
What exactly do fermagh have that mean they deserve to be ahead of Down?
league final and ulster final? quite an achievment, they actually should have won both of them.
Quote from: Lazer on September 24, 2008, 01:22:41 PM
What exactly do fermagh have that mean they deserve to be ahead of Down?
This?
20 Apr 2008
Down 0-13 - 1-12 Fermanagh
or this?
Allianz National Football League Division 3
Team P W D L F A +/- Pts
1 Fermanagh 7 6 1 0 8-80 4-75 17 13
2 Wexford 7 5 2 0 9-80 4-71 24 12
3 Down 7 4 0 3 7-89 10-73 7 8
Quote from: Frank Casey on September 23, 2008, 10:29:43 PM
Quote from: ildanach on September 23, 2008, 10:14:25 PM
Having contested ?two all ireland finals in 04 and 06 a league final in 07 and a league semifinal in 06 and 05 you would imagine we would be higher all right.
sorry frank
contested took part in the parade in 2 all ireland finals in 04 and 06 :'(
Glad that topic stirred up a bit of debate amongst the GAA fraternity far and wide, many passionate and loyal views among them :P
I think its still fair to say that if the Ulster teams don't take it out of each other up north (like the way Tyrone only played Down this year ((and got beaten)) and went all the way) where the rest of the teams more or less beat each other; Monaghan played 3, Armagh played 4 games, Fermanagh played 4 games v Ulster teams, Down played 3 v Ulster teams, all went out to inferior teams apart from Monaghan, in my opinion (I know some won't like that and will feel that they deserved what they got cos they got beat) Derry put out by an Ulster team, Donegal put out by an Ulster team, Cavan should have beaten Kildare but were hit by a sucker punch with the last kick of the ball and only 1 team was involved in the Tommy Murphy Cup and Antrim won that!!!
ULADH ABU
Quote from: SidelineKick on September 24, 2008, 08:57:22 AM
kildare and down are not ahead of fermanagh. derry could be included ahead of either of them too.
Kildare 0-11, fermanagh 0-5
And, are Derry not national league champion?
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 24, 2008, 01:48:32 PM
Quote from: Lazer on September 24, 2008, 01:22:41 PM
What exactly do fermagh have that mean they deserve to be ahead of Down?
This?
20 Apr 2008
Down 0-13 - 1-12 Fermanagh
or this?
Allianz National Football League Division 3
Team P W D L F A +/- Pts
1 Fermanagh 7 6 1 0 8-80 4-75 17 13
2 Wexford 7 5 2 0 9-80 4-71 24 12
3 Down 7 4 0 3 7-89 10-73 7 8
Down beat the All-Ireland champions, nothing can take away from that fact!
Yeah Down did, sure Andy Murray recently beat Rafael Nadal so he must be the best tennis player in the world now!
Does anyone reckon Tyrone will win it next year? have Kerry come to the end of their amazing run over the last 5 years? Will we see any other team come to the fore apart from the usual suspects following Fermanagh and Wexford's good showing this season?