there has been a good series of letters on this topic in the irish times lately and todays one is worth a look (on the day sadly that news of another irishmans death in Afghanistan breaks)
Irishmen in British uniforms
Madam, - Tom Cooper (September 1st) forcefully expresses his disdain for Irishmen in British uniforms, whom he sees as conniving in a long history of British oppression. But the warp and weft of personal family tradition is never quite so cut and dried. As we say in our Protestant family, Irish history is a twisted rope. It can bind us together, hang us, or guide us.
Not long after the second World War, my late father-in-law, Tom Stoney, was a senior pupil at Harrow School. Winston Churchill, who was a former pupil there, was paying a visit and a group of prefects were lined up to be presented to him. When Churchill reached Tom, his housemaster introduced him: "This is Thomas Stoney, from Co Mayo in Ireland.".
Churchill harrumphed and disdainfully remarked: "The bloody Irish, what have they ever done for our wars?" Tom, only 17 years old, drew himself to his full height and retorted: "Thanks to your wars, sir, I have no male relatives; no father - he died in the last war, and no uncle, he died in the Great War." Jaws dropped, and the housemaster bustled Churchill down the line of other blushing prefects.
A little while later, Tom was summoned to the housemaster's study, expecting a beating or worse. He found Churchill, who shook him solemnly by the hand and asked forgiveness for his intemperate remarks.
Tom, a gentleman and a rebel of ascendancy stock, became a Church of Ireland clergyman, and never owned a British passport. He was an Irishman, and his old passport was green. In his years as a priest in the North he confronted loyalist thugs, removing their barricades with his own hands from across the streets of his parish, and loudly played songs of the IRA on his gramophone at the open window of his rectory study window whenever the Protestant marching bands passed by on July 12th.
He was a very fine shot who learned his marksmanship from a worker on the family estate, one Larry McGovern, a commander of the West Mayo brigade of the IRA. He also honoured the sacrifice of his father and uncle, both of whom he never knew.
In 1916, my own great- grandfather, also a Church of Ireland clergyman, was confounded when his son was refused a commission in an English regiment, the Durham Light Infantry, because he came from Wexford. He wrote to the War Office and we have a copy of the letter still. It begins: "At a time when Ireland is accused of not pulling its weight in the great struggle against German militarism, I find it incredible that my son, winner of the All Ireland schools' engineering medal, is refused a commission in an English regiment because of his nationality."
Within a year, Fred was killed at Ypres leading a platoon of the Royal Irish Rifles against a German machine-gun position. He was 20 years old.
One day I may have to explain to my sons about the divided loyalties they inherit as proud little (Anglo-) Irishmen. So I will invite them to respect the sacrifice of soldiers of the old IRA, like family friend Larry McGovern, who fought for Irish freedom, and remember their own forebears in the British forces who died to make that freedom worthwhile; for an Ireland in a Europe ruled by fascists, communists and militarists would have had no freedom worth the name.
I will also go on to say that I give thanks that they, and all others like them, are alive in an age and in a country where they need not take up arms for any cause, no matter the uniform, no matter the flag. As I have explained to British friends, had Ireland joined the Allied side in the second World War, the wounds of the 1920s Civil War would have opened again in Ireland with terrible consequences.
The policy of Irish neutrality established at that time, and the Christian path of peace which informs it, remain causes well worth living for, whether son of the Planter, or son of the Gael. - Yours, etc,
JULIAN ELLISON,
Ardagh,
Newport,
Co Mayo.
Enjoyed reading that Magickingdom. Thanks for putting that up.
Have they no army of their own to join?
Quote from: fred the red on September 05, 2008, 09:18:00 PM
Have they no army of their own to join?
Enjoyed the article, but that's a valid point.
I think the long history of Irishmen serving in the British forces for various reasons is one thing. It's something entirely different for a citizen of the Republic of Ireland to serve in those same forces today. To my mind there are few reasons for somone to choose to join the British forces ahead of the Irish defense forces other than some misguided idea of adventure, as nowadays the Irish army is well trained, and involved in Peace Keeping actions throughout the world, with a record second to none. Put another way, I'd rather feel proud of protecting the lives of those in Darfur, than feel responsible for the deaths of civilians in Iraq.
and a story in the Irish Times from yesterday.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0904/1220372098017.html
More people from Republic opting to join British army
DAN KEENAN
Thu, Sep 04, 2008
SIX IRISH people turned up yesterday at a British army centre in Fermanagh, pledged allegiance to Queen Elizabeth and walked away as recruits. Five of them are from the Republic, the other from Strabane.
Col Dick Rafferty, the head of recruitment responsible for bringing some 700 young people into the forces annually, stresses there is "nothing new" in people from the South joining the British army.
"There is less of a stigma in telling your friends and family that you've joined," he says. "Perhaps we are seeing old prejudices and preconceptions being put to one side or erased."
Andrew Warrington (22), from Co Mayo, is a former member of the Defence Forces but had to leave because of injury. Because the British army offered to readmit him to military life more quickly, he jumped at the chance. He says his family "are thrilled", while his friends "are grand with it".
He signed for the Royal Irish Regiment, and is down for eventual deployment in Afghanistan.
He admits: "It was kind of scary at first but now I realise it's a job and a good job. Your job takes you away to work on a mission. That's what you do, you go with the flow."
Anthony Kerins (16) leaves for the Army Foundation College in Harrogate on Sunday for more schooling and training.
He joined "to go places . . . to have a good job, to meet good people and get out into the world".
He will also join the Royal Irish Regiment, while others who signed up yesterday will join the Parachute Regiment, the Irish Guards or the Royal Engineers.
Sgt Gavin O'Neill from Tallaght is one of two recruitment officers in Enniskillen.
"My father is still a serving soldier in the Irish Army, and I applied to join shortly after doing my Leaving Cert but I was unsuccessful. The other options open were the French Foreign Legion or the British army, so I chose the British and I joined up."
What's all the publicity in aid of?
Are they trying to attract more Irish recruits as presumably a lot of English/Scottish and Welsh young men dont fancy getting killed in Iraq/Afghanistan or whatever next Country the Yanks want to fcuk up?
Anyway for the record none of my grandfathers or Great grandfathers or any of their brothers ever were in the Brit army.
And ye know what - I'm mighty proud of the fact. :)
Different people have different motives for joining, so we shouldn't automatically load our prejudices onto everyone, willy-nilly:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20080905...ce-6323e80.html
Soldier hoped for Afghan peace
Press Assoc. - A British Army soldier killed in Afghanistan had spoken of hopes of bringing peace to the war-torn country.
Ranger Justin Cupples, 29, a member of the 1st Battalion of The Royal Irish Regiment (RIR), was killed while on routine foot patrol in Sangin, Helmand Province, on Thursday.
He was fatally injured in a roadside bomb attack and, despite receiving first aid, died at the scene.
His death takes the number of British Army soldiers killed in Afghanistan to 117.
The Ranger, known as Cups to his comrades, was from Miami in the US but had moved back to his family home in Co Cavan in the Irish Republic, where he met and married his Lithuanian wife Vilma.
Before his recent deployment to Afghanistan, he spoke publicly about his desire to take on the Taliban following the September 11 terrorist attacks on his homeland.
He was then in the US Navy and was on board the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt during the initial invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.
After leaving the navy and moving to Ireland to the family home in Virginia, Co Cavan, he decided to join the British Army, spurred by the belief he had some unfinished business with the Taliban.
"It was one of the things I regretted after September 11, not being able to go in there (to Afghanistan) and do the job that needed to be done, and obviously still needs doing," he said when interviewed before the Royal Irish's recent deployment to Helmand.
"I would be lying if I said I wasn't apprehensive at some level but I'm anxious to go at the same time. I think it's now about trying to restore order to Afghanistan and trying to make it into some sort of a country."
Meanwhile, whilst the Taliban is trying to bring the Middle Ages back to Afghanistan, NATO are trying to bring electricity:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7593901.stm
If the US hadnt have trained and funded these extremists against the Soviets, then alot of these unfortuante deaths could have been avoided.
Quote from: Evil Genius on September 05, 2008, 11:22:02 PM
Different people have different motives for joining, so we shouldn't automatically load our prejudices onto everyone, willy-nilly:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20080905...ce-6323e80.html
Soldier hoped for Afghan peace
Press Assoc. - A British Army soldier killed in Afghanistan had spoken of hopes of bringing peace to the war-torn country.
Ranger Justin Cupples, 29, a member of the 1st Battalion of The Royal Irish Regiment (RIR), was killed while on routine foot patrol in Sangin, Helmand Province, on Thursday.
He was fatally injured in a roadside bomb attack and, despite receiving first aid, died at the scene.
His death takes the number of British Army soldiers killed in Afghanistan to 117.
The Ranger, known as Cups to his comrades, was from Miami in the US but had moved back to his family home in Co Cavan in the Irish Republic, where he met and married his Lithuanian wife Vilma.
Before his recent deployment to Afghanistan, he spoke publicly about his desire to take on the Taliban following the September 11 terrorist attacks on his homeland.
He was then in the US Navy and was on board the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt during the initial invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.
After leaving the navy and moving to Ireland to the family home in Virginia, Co Cavan, he decided to join the British Army, spurred by the belief he had some unfinished business with the Taliban.
"It was one of the things I regretted after September 11, not being able to go in there (to Afghanistan) and do the job that needed to be done, and obviously still needs doing," he said when interviewed before the Royal Irish's recent deployment to Helmand.
"I would be lying if I said I wasn't apprehensive at some level but I'm anxious to go at the same time. I think it's now about trying to restore order to Afghanistan and trying to make it into some sort of a country."
Meanwhile, whilst the Taliban is trying to bring the Middle Ages back to Afghanistan, NATO are trying to bring electricity:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7593901.stm
So he went from the US Navy to the RIR, and his major regret was not seeing action in Afghanistan in the immediate aftermath of 911? Sorry EG but this guy's motivations seem to me to be baser than transforming Afghanisatan into a civil society. No harm to him like, but I'm sure his family are left with some regrets too.
people mightent like the idea of irish men and women joining the british army , and i am one of those people, but it is their right to join whatever army they want and persue their own career. cant understand what the media fuss is about though its not as if the irish are applying to the british army in their droves. are the media pushing some agenda?
Quote from: dodgy umpire on September 06, 2008, 12:19:55 AM
people mightent like the idea of irish men and women joining the british army , and i am one of those people, but it is their right to join whatever army they want and persue their own career. cant understand what the media fuss is about though its not as if the irish are applying to the british army in their droves. are the media pushing some agenda?
It's definitely their right. And it's not even a matter of me liking it or not, I would think the same of those joining the US armed forces for instance. As I alluded to above, the Irish Defense forces give lots of opportunities to learn trades and to see action as peace keepers protecting civilian populations in some of toughest trouble spots in the world. The main motivations for an Irish citizen to join the army of any other nation would be (a) they lived in that country (b) they couldn't get into the Irish forces or (c) they want to see offensive action.
As for all the publicity, I suppose there have been a number of death's over the last couple of years other than the one this week. One of the first British soldiers to die in Iraq was a Dublin man who had featured heavily in a documentary program just weeks before. Also it's something people feel more free to disclose now given the improvement in the circumstances up north. I have personally known a number of southerners who have served in the RIR, the Irish Guards and even the SAS, but at the time this was all kind of hush hush. To a man it has either been because the Irish Army refused them or they wanted to see action i.e. kill people and blow shit up. What also struck me as weird was most of them had negative experiences of discrimination because they were Irish, although I would have thought that was to be expected. After all it's no mistake that, after the Gurkas, regiments like the Irish Guards etc. are amongst the first deployed to new flash points. I just don't get it when Irish soldiers have served peace in countries like the Congo, Lebanon, Cyprus, Bosnia, East Timor, Liberia, Eritrea, and now Sudan - and those were only the major deployments. I mean I could understand those serving in other armies during times like WW2 especially, when Ireland was neutral, but now?
QuoteThe main motivations for an Irish citizen to join the army of any other nation would be (a) they lived in that country (b) they couldn't get into the Irish forces or (c) they want to see offensive action.
100%.
Blood thirsty pricks, they'll be at home in the British Army.
Good riddance to them.
It's hard to see any other motivation for it, since we have a perfectly good army at home that provides lots of opportunities for foreign adventures as well. The only difference seems to be the type of "adventure" involved.
Prompts the question - why don't we have British people applying to join the Irish army? Or do we? And would they get in? Does the European employment legislation cover armies?
I know quite a few guys who joined the British Army in the 1970's and 80's.
None would serve in the North. Rather be jailed than serve in the North. These would be guys descended from those who would mostly have been neutral in or some were pro british in the War of Independance.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on September 06, 2008, 12:25:52 PM
Blood thirsty pricks, they'll be at home in the British Army.
Good riddance to them.
Army life is a career of sorts.
Just as the reasons for joining the British Army are varied.
I wouldn't presume so much about their reasons or intentions.
Tom Barry joined the British Army for some adventure.
Mainstreet the only thing the Irish Army can't offer that the British can is blood so we can only assume that's what these boys are after.
When Tom Barry joined the british army there was no Irish alternative offering the same thing.
If all the Irish Army do is standing around guarding UN peace keepers I can only assume they never fire their weapons. I can see why people would want to join the Brits then. I'm sure people join the Brits for adventure rather than killing people. Remember people are shooting at them too!
Gallipoli - The Fureys
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=NA79kVLHZ5c
Quote from: Tony Baloney on September 06, 2008, 08:19:29 PM
I'm sure people join the Brits for adventure rather than killing people. Remember people are shooting at them too!
There'd be nobody shooting at them if they werent going round invading other peoples countries. >:(
Quote from: Rossfan on September 06, 2008, 10:09:04 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on September 06, 2008, 08:19:29 PM
I'm sure people join the Brits for adventure rather than killing people. Remember people are shooting at them too!
There'd be nobody shooting at them if they werent going round invading other peoples countries. >:(
You got to love the brits though, they invade countries and then when someone fights back they're outraged at the "terrorists"! If it wasn't so serious, it'd be funny!
Quote from: Tony Baloney on September 06, 2008, 08:19:29 PM
If all the Irish Army do is standing around guarding UN peace keepers I can only assume they never fire their weapons.
Not true, our lads were involved in an altercation with rebels in Chad only weeks ago. The 'rebel season' is just kicking in over there now so expect some more action.
And Chad is a peace enforcing mission which is different to a peace keeping mission. Basically a soldier doesn't have to wait to be fired upon before he can discharge his weapon, as was the case in Lebanon.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on September 06, 2008, 02:25:04 PM
When Tom Barry joined the british army there was no Irish alternative offering the same thing.
Exactly. As was said earlier there has been a long history of Irishmen serving in the British forces for many varied reasons, some political, some economic, and no one is denying that. But with a modern day Irish army as an alternative you would have to question the practice.
QuoteIf all the Irish Army do is standing around guarding UN peace keepers I can only assume they never fire their weapons. I can see why people would want to join the Brits then.
There are a few thing wrong there. First off they are the peace keepers, they don't guard them. Second off ask the families of those who died serving peace in the Congo and Lebanon, to name but two, if all they did was stand guard. Also ask the people alive in those countries today because of their presence if all they did was stand guard.
Around an average of 2 Irish soldiers per year have died since the Army first were deployed abroad so there's obviously some action saw. A lot of these deaths were at the hands of the Baloobas who were a tribe from the Congo I think and who have since given their name to Slaughtneil, another crowd of nutters in Derry!
Quote from: Rav67 on September 06, 2008, 10:54:16 PM
A lot of these deaths were at the hands of the Baloobas who were a tribe from the Congo I think and who have since given their name to Slaughtneil, another crowd of nutters in Derry!
Also a colloquialism for being extremely drunk, at least in the midlands anyway!
The Niemba ambush had a profound effect on the country at the time and the soldiers involved were national heroes. Strangely, it doesn't seem to have survived in the national psyche as much as the enormity of it would have warranted. And indeed the word "baluba" entered the language as a kind of synonym for anything from cornerboy to bowsy.
Here is an account of the event from an interview with one of the two survivors, Private Joe Fitzpatrick (from http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/archive/index.php/t-1971.html):
On 8th November 1960 a Platoon of Irish UN Troops set out on what should have been a normal Patrol. Nine of them died at the hands of the Balubas. Two of the Platoon survived to tell the story of the ambush. They were Trooper Thomas Kenny and Private Joe Fitzpatrick.
I think I could give no more graphic description of the ambush than to quote in full, the interview which Private Fitzpatrick give when in hospital in Albertville. In the same ward in the bed beside Fitzpatrick lay the other survivor Thomas Kenny.
"We were on a routine patrol. It was normal to go down the road leading south from Niemba and find a roadblock that had to be cleared.
Balubas were always doing this and we used to curse them almost good-naturedly while, in the hot sun, pulling down their handiwork - usually heavy logs piled across the road.
But this time they had done a more thorough job. They had pulled to pieces a wooden bridge across a small river, and it was taking us a lot more time than usual to put it right.
We had noticed lately that the parties of Baluba we met were getting more sullen and hostile. We never had more trouble than an odd arrow shot our way and we had always managed to bring about a peaceful end to our meetings with them.
So we were not at all expecting what happened this time. There we were, working away at that bridge with our Platoon Commander, Lt. Kevin Gleeson, and Sergt. Gaynor supervising, when someone called out there were Balubas coming down the road behind us. I looked up and there were about a hundred of them carrying bows and arrows, spears, panga knives and clubs.
Lt.Gleeson told us to stop working and be on alert with our weapons. Even then we did not expect trouble. We thought it would be another parley and then they would go away.
Lt. Gleeson walked towards them alone, holding up his right arm in sign of peace. They called out "Jambo" which is an African word meaning "I greet you in peace"
I looked away for just a moment for some reason or other and heard a shout from the lads. Then I saw Lt.Gleeson staggering with an arrow in his shoulder. I heard him yell, "Take cover, lads get behind the trees.
We did just that and withdrew into the trees on each side of the road. Most of the boys took cover on the opposite side of the road that I did - that is really how my life was saved, because the major Baluba attack went that way.
The air was suddenly black with a shower of arrows, and the Buluba let out blood-curdling yells that sounded like a war cry and rushed down the road like madmen, jumping in the air and waving their weapons.
I don't know who give the order to shoot, but we seemed suddenly all to be shooting.
I saw Lt. Gleeson killed. He didn't really get off the road. He fired into the Baluba with his sub-machine gun, covering us, looking quickly back over his shoulder to make sure we had taken cover. Then he turned and ran for the trees himself.
But they overtook him and ran him down. Some had outflanked him and cut off his attempt to get to cover. A lot of them reached him at the same time and they were howling like animals. Our Officer went down under a hail of blows from knives and clubs.
I don't know what I was thinking at the time but I have plenty of time to think since and that sight was the most awful memory of it all. Lt. Gleeson was a wonderful man and we loved him- we all loved him.
From that moment it all became very confused. The fight spread out among the trees. I could not see most of it. But there was a terrible noise, shouts, shooting and screaming.
The Baluba seemed to be everywhere, crushing through the bushes and giving their sort of high pitched battle-cry.
I heard our lads yelling, too. I heard one of them swearing. I remember I recognised his voice and I called out his name.
I heard another Irish voice say! Oh my God! and it ended in a sort of sob.
I saw about 12 Baluba in a hand-to-hand fight with one of our lads, who was using his rifle like a club. I feared to shoot for hitting him. Then I realised he was going to be killed anyway if I did not shoot and I fired two long bursts and saw three Buluba fall.
The rest of the Baluba ran away and I went to the lad who was my friend. He was still alive but could not answer when I spoke to him. He had three arrows in his body and was terribly cut with knives or spear wounds.
I tried gently to pull the arrows out of him but they would not come away because they were barbed. I stayed with him till he died ten minutes later.
I could still hear the Baluba about me but there was no more shooting.
I started to move through the bush, knowing that if they found me they would kill me.
Suddenly there was a crashing to my right. I threw myself on the ground, rolled under a bush so that I was covered.
I heard Baluba voices almost right above me- I think they were so close I could have touched the speakers.
For one terrible moment I waited for the spear-thrust I felt sure must come. But then they moved away. They had not seen me.
I lay there without moving for three hours till it became dark. Ants and other insects crawled over me.
After it was dark I got up and moved towards the road but in such a way that I would miss the scene of the fight. I found the road and moved along it, keeping close to the trees. I felt ice cold and my teeth were chattering although I knew the night was sticky and warm. I wondered if I had malaria or fever, or something.
I walked cautiously with my gun at the ready. The night was pitch black and I could just see the pale blur of the road. I began to tremble violently.
I was jumping at every sound. I began to feel that I was being watched and followed. I stepped on a dry twig, which snapped, and my heart jumped at the sound. Suddenly I heard a distant singing. I came to a native village at the roadside where there was singing and shouting and I saw fires burning. They sounded terribly drunk. I felt certain that it was the people who had attacked us.
For a moment I had a wild impulse to creep up on them and let them have it with every bullet left in my gun. Instead I moved back into the jungle on the opposite side of the road. I was getting terribly exhausted and several times fell over roots and things and collided with tree branches in the dark.
I could hear frightening sounds and rustlings of animals about me, but I was past caring. I stumbled and put my hand on the branch of a tree to steady myself and yelled out aloud in pain and fright. The branch seemed alive with crawling insects. Something had stung my hand.
I staggered a few more yards and sank to the ground. I felt dazed and my thoughts began to wander. I thought of my mother, and the coolness of Ireland, of the rain in the streets of Dublin and how peaceful it was there.
I wished so much that I could get out of this God-forsaken country of filth, sweat and heat and savages. I think I prayed it might be so. I think I dozed or fell into a stupor or something then because suddenly it was getting light.
Pulling myself to my feet I wandered slowly through the jungle again. Suddenly I heard the sound of a truck and heard Irish voices. I shouted and ran towards the lovely sound of it. I fell but got up and kept on going and came out on the road. It was a truck full of some of the boys from Albertville.
I fell into their arms"
PS A Patrol that later went out to search found all the missing bodies with the exception of Trooper Anthony Browne. An intensive search proved fruitless and he was officially posted "missing", presumed dead". It was not until a year later almost to the date that Trooper Brown's body was found.
[Added by Hardy]
The bodies recovered were found hanging in trees in a mutilated state.The circumstances in which Trooper Brown's body was found a year later suggest he died protecting a fallen comrade, though I don't understand why there weren't two missing bodies in that case.
Trooper Browne was posthumously awarded the Military Medal for Gallantry, with the citation: "He had a reasonable opportunity of escaping because he was not wounded but chose to remain with an injured comrade".
One of my Dad's friends served in the Congo. He still carries his tag on his key ring to remind him of his comrades, and how lucky he is to be alive at home in Ireland with his family.
I did a bit more reading on the story of Trooper Browne and the full story seems somewhat different (and also explains the fact that there wasn't a second body missing for a year). Strange and sad story, compounded by the taint of internal army news management.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/congo-massacre-survivor-army-must-tell-real-story-516794.html
By JEROME REILLY
Sunday November 05 2000
ONE of the two survivors of the Niemba massacre in the Congo in 1960 has broken his silence about what he believed was a mix-up in the aftermath of the greatest loss of life of Irish soldiers on UN peacekeeping duties.
In the week of the 40th anniversary of the massacre November 8 former trooper Thomas Kenny believes that the full truth has yet to emerge; the truth of what really happened when nine men were butchered after their 11-man patrol was attacked by Baluba tribesman. On November 22, 1960 the funeral of those who died some clubbed to death, others struck by poisoned arrows attracted one of the biggest crowds ever witnessed in Dublin since the deaths of Daniel O'Connell, Charles Stewart Parnell and Michael Collins.
In the wake of the Niemba Massacre, a legend grew up. It was the legend of 20-year-old trooper Anthony Browne, an unmarried soldier from Rialto, Dublin, who, it was claimed, had laid down his life to save that of his comrade, a married Private, Thomas Kenny from Ballyfermot. As a result Army top brass decided that Trooper Browne was to be the first recipient of the coveted Medal of Honour. But the legend fostered by the Army and deflecting from what was a military disaster was false.
Trooper Anthony Browne did not die at the scene of the Niemba massacre, nor did he die later on of wounds sustained there. Most importantly, as far as trooper Thomas Kenny is concerned, Trooper Browne did not give up his life so that Kenny could survive.
"I am not trying to denigrate the bravery of Anto Browne during that attack when it was every man for himself, I saw him firing and fighting with the best of them. But everyone believes he died to save me and that is not the truth," Mr Kenny told the Sunday Independent.
The former soldier, who is now in his mid-60s, says that he revealed all this in his initial statement to Army officers on his return from the Congo but that original statement was "lost" and another version of events gained credence. It is now accepted that Browne's body was not among those recovered at the scene in the days following the massacre, which took place near a crossing of the River Luweyeye. Those who died at the spot were: Lt Kevin Gleeson from Terenure; Sgt Hugh Gaynor, Leixlip; Cpl Peter Kelly, Templeogue; Cpl Liam Dougan, Cabra; Pte Matthew Farrell from Swords; Pte Thomas Fennel, Donnycarney; Pte Gerard Killeen, Rathmines and Pte Michael McGuinn from Carlow.
As well as Trooper Kenny there was another survivor, Pte Joseph Fitzpatrick. Neither man has been honoured, while the eight others who died along with Anthony Browne were posthumously awarded medals in 1998. The tragedy of Anthony Browne's death became known at official level two years after the massacre.
Following a chance conversation between an Irish army officer and a Belgian lawyer in the Congolese city of Elisabethville, the whereabouts of Browne's remains was established. The story that emerged was that the wounded Browne had wandered into the jungle after the incident at Niemba and got lost. He emerged several days later, hungry and thirsty, and begged some local Baluba tribeswomen for food and water. According to Belgian and Congolese sources, the women brought the Irish soldier something to eat and drink but they also brought along tribesmen who attacked Browne and killed him. Browne's remains were eventually located and identified almost two years after the massacre, several miles from Niemba. That discovery effectively demolished the official "myth" that Browne sacrificed his life to save Private Thomas Kenny. However, the Army, which had already awarded the Medal of Honour to Browne's parents in Dublin, did not change the official version of events.
Thomas Kenny told the Sunday Independent last week: "It is a terrible burden for everyone to think that the reason I am alive is because someone gave up his life to save me. It just isn't true and I want what really happened to become public knowledge rather than just among the Army, who have never came out and said what really happened."
In a recent letter to a former commanding officer, Mr Kenny sums up his dilemma: "You have the power to set the record straight before it is too late. I am begging for your compassion to lift this untrue burden from my shoulders and let me live out the rest of my life in dignity. I know someone had to be picked out as a hero but why should I have to be a scapegoat? I am not looking for any honours. I did nothing brave. All I did was survive with the help of God and the good training I got in the Army."
Quote from: Yes I Would on September 05, 2008, 11:42:04 PM
If the US hadnt have trained and funded these extremists against the Soviets, then alot of these unfortuante deaths could have been avoided.
So they should have just left Afghanistan to the Russians?
Do you have similar disdain for Spanish attempts to help us out 400 years ago? Or do you think they did it out of the goodness of their hearts and not in order to strengthen their position against the British?
Quote from: J70 on September 07, 2008, 03:26:46 PM
Quote from: Yes I Would on September 05, 2008, 11:42:04 PM
If the US hadnt have trained and funded these extremists against the Soviets, then alot of these unfortuante deaths could have been avoided.
So they should have just left Afghanistan to the Russians?
Do you have similar disdain for Spanish attempts to help us out 400 years ago? Or do you think they did it out of the goodness of their hearts and not in order to strengthen their position against the British?
Come on J70, you are not seriously suggesting that the yanks armed islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan to ensure that their soverign country was no over run by an alien country. Sure didn't there old buddies the brits invade Afghanistan (and Iraq) in the early part of the last century only to have their arses bet out of both places. I don't believe anyone was to bothered about Afghanistans rights then. The policy of our enemies enemy is our friend is a total and utter failed policy. It came full circle with Bin laden, it created a beast in Sadam who was bank rolled, armed and thought how to make and use chemical weapons by the US/Brits and Germans. But when he turned bad dictator and pointed his guns at Kuwait we were told he was a monster with weapons of mass destruction and Iraqs population must be defended. No one defended them when Sadam lauched a cyanide bomb on the kurds during the Iran and Iraq war, wiping out 1000's - in fact the yanks knew about it and did nothing - Sadam was their buddy ya see. I haven't even got on to Israel yet. In summary, anyone who joins the brits or Yanks army is brain dead and needs to do some serious looking at themselves. By doing so they are supporting armies that flaunt the geneva convention and are guilty of serious war crimes. I say shame on anyone who joins an army to kill for excitement.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 07, 2008, 08:50:11 PM
Quote from: J70 on September 07, 2008, 03:26:46 PM
Quote from: Yes I Would on September 05, 2008, 11:42:04 PM
If the US hadnt have trained and funded these extremists against the Soviets, then alot of these unfortuante deaths could have been avoided.
So they should have just left Afghanistan to the Russians?
Do you have similar disdain for Spanish attempts to help us out 400 years ago? Or do you think they did it out of the goodness of their hearts and not in order to strengthen their position against the British?
Come on J70, you are not seriously suggesting that the yanks armed islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan to ensure that their soverign country was no over run by an alien country. Sure didn't there old buddies the brits invade Afghanistan (and Iraq) in the early part of the last century only to have their arses bet out of both places. I don't believe anyone was to bothered about Afghanistans rights then. The policy of our enemies enemy is our friend is a total and utter failed policy. It came full circle with Bin laden, it created a beast in Sadam who was bank rolled, armed and thought how to make and use chemical weapons by the US/Brits and Germans. But when he turned bad dictator and pointed his guns at Kuwait we were told he was a monster with weapons of mass destruction and Iraqs population must be defended. No one defended them when Sadam lauched a cyanide bomb on the kurds during the Iran and Iraq war, wiping out 1000's - in fact the yanks knew about it and did nothing - Sadam was their buddy ya see. I haven't even got on to Israel yet. In summary, anyone who joins the brits or Yanks army is brain dead and needs to do some serious looking at themselves. By doing so they are supporting armies that flaunt the geneva convention and are guilty of serious war crimes. I say shame on anyone who joins an army to kill for excitement.
The US helped the Afghans against the Soviets in the same way as the Spanish tried to help us against the Brits i.e. out of self-interest in the context of a broader struggle between powerful nations, and a struggle in which we ourselves (like most other nations) are happy to choose sides to our own advantage, be it in accepting assistance against Britain or in lending our implicit or explicit support to America in the modern age in exchange for trade and protection. Not saying its necessarily a bad thing, its just the way of the world and you do what you can to get by in the shadow of more powerful nations.
I agree with you on the "enemy of my enemy" thing, and hopefully the US has learned from their past experiences. The rhetoric of the right a few years back seemed to suggest so, but I wouldn't count on anything. Memories fade quickly.
Quote from: Mentalman on September 06, 2008, 12:57:45 AM
I have personally known a number of southerners who have served in the RIR, the Irish Guards and even the SAS, but at the time this was all kind of hush hush. To a man it has either been because the Irish Army refused them or they wanted to see action i.e. kill people and blow shit up. What also struck me as weird was most of them had negative experiences of discrimination because they were Irish, although I would have thought that was to be expected.
Not trying to put you on the spot, but can you give me an idea or example of discrimination they faced ? WAs it just verbal been referred to as an Irish bastard etc or what ?? And did any of them regret joining the brits due to their experiences ??
Quote from: SuperMac on September 08, 2008, 01:04:28 PM
Quote from: Mentalman on September 06, 2008, 12:57:45 AM
I have personally known a number of southerners who have served in the RIR, the Irish Guards and even the SAS, but at the time this was all kind of hush hush. To a man it has either been because the Irish Army refused them or they wanted to see action i.e. kill people and blow shit up. What also struck me as weird was most of them had negative experiences of discrimination because they were Irish, although I would have thought that was to be expected.
Not trying to put you on the spot, but can you give me an idea or example of discrimination they faced ? WAs it just verbal been referred to as an Irish b**tard etc or what ?? And did any of them regret joining the brits due to their experiences ??
A lot of verbals, like I said I thought that would have been expected, especially during training. One guy I know, an experienced soldier, got in serious trouble when he retaliated one night, against two Royal Irish Rangers as it happened, so he totally regretted his time there. Came home and joined the Fire Services - obviously a bit of an adrenaline junky.
Are the Northern prods seen by you as 'irishmen in british uniforms'
if 'yes' then what is the big sudden shock?
if 'no' then are you saying that they are infact NOT as Irish as say someone from Dundalk?
One of the greatest Irishmen in history also took the kings/queen's shilling. Tom Crean. If you ever get the chance, go to the one man play about Tom Crean. Some man for one man.
Hardy's stories would suggest that screenexile had a very lucky escape indeed.
Quote from: Denn Forever on September 08, 2008, 01:31:33 PM
One of the greatest Irishmen in history also took the kings/queen's shilling. Tom Crean. If you ever get the chance, go to the one man play about Tom Crean. Some man for one man.
Brilliant play, the classic line being "That young officer said something, I tell you now, I never heard in all my years of service - 'I made a mistake!'". Crean's brother was reputedly shot by the IRA, as he was, or had been, a member of the RIC. But as stated earlier, those were different times, when an Irish alternative wasn't available.
Quote
Are the Northern prods seen by you as 'irishmen in british uniforms'
if 'yes' then what is the big sudden shock?
if 'no' then are you saying that they are infact NOT as Irish as say someone from Dundalk?
Not sure what you are getting at really. First off religion has nothing to do with it. I do count Northern Unionists as Irishmen, as I believe they are whether they like it or not by virtue of being born on the island of Ireland. I wouldn't expect them to necessarily join the Irish Army though, as their political allegiance is to the the British crown. As for as a big sudden shock, I don't think there is one. What this is about is lads who are citizens of the Republic of Ireland, with absolutely no dual loyalties, largely joining the British army for thrills, but then we are somehow supposed to feel sympathy, beyond that normally extended to anyone berived, when these characters meet their maker in service of a foreign government.
Cannot feel any sympathy for these lads, they sign up knowing the risks, you take the money you take the associated risks.
I however do feel for their families as they are the ones who really suffer.
I just find it difficult to understand why someone (Irishman) would want to join the British army.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 08, 2008, 10:44:56 PM
Cannot feel any sympathy for these lads, they sign up knowing the risks, you take the money you take the associated risks.
I however do feel for their families as they are the ones who really suffer.
I just find it difficult to understand why someone (Irishman) would want to join the British army.
could you not say the same for people who supports british soccer teams or work for british companies etc?
Quote from: Tankie on September 08, 2008, 11:24:32 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 08, 2008, 10:44:56 PM
Cannot feel any sympathy for these lads, they sign up knowing the risks, you take the money you take the associated risks.
I however do feel for their families as they are the ones who really suffer.
I just find it difficult to understand why someone (Irishman) would want to join the British army.
could you not say the same for people who supports british soccer teams or work for british companies etc?
Ach now thats some leap
Quote from: maddog on September 09, 2008, 08:44:29 AM
Quote from: Tankie on September 08, 2008, 11:24:32 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 08, 2008, 10:44:56 PM
Cannot feel any sympathy for these lads, they sign up knowing the risks, you take the money you take the associated risks.
I however do feel for their families as they are the ones who really suffer.
I just find it difficult to understand why someone (Irishman) would want to join the British army.
could you not say the same for people who supports British soccer teams or work for British companies etc?
Ach now thats some leap
It really depends on what way you look at it, its all well and good to say that an Irish man should not be fighting in the British army or support the British establishment but then in the next breath say its OK to travel over a support their soccer teams and economy. There are many British businesses that are bad for ireland that i do not see people say boycott them or don't shop in Tesco. Personally I see Britain as a neighbour and a partner in the EU so i don't care what people get up to but people who think its wrong to fight in the British army but support everything else are just hypocrites.
Quote from: Tankie on September 09, 2008, 10:04:14 AM
Quote from: maddog on September 09, 2008, 08:44:29 AM
Quote from: Tankie on September 08, 2008, 11:24:32 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 08, 2008, 10:44:56 PM
Cannot feel any sympathy for these lads, they sign up knowing the risks, you take the money you take the associated risks.
I however do feel for their families as they are the ones who really suffer.
I just find it difficult to understand why someone (Irishman) would want to join the British army.
could you not say the same for people who supports British soccer teams or work for British companies etc?
Ach now thats some leap
It really depends on what way you look at it, its all well and good to say that an Irish man should not be fighting in the British army or support the British establishment but then in the next breath say its OK to travel over a support their soccer teams and economy. There are many British businesses that are bad for ireland that i do not see people say boycott them or don't shop in Tesco. Personally I see Britain as a neighbour and a partner in the EU so i don't care what people get up to but people who think its wrong to fight in the British army but support everything else are just hypocrites.
Ireland has always been closely linked with Britain in more ways that we would care to admit. However picking up a gun to fight for Lizzy is somewhat different to going over to watch Celtic for example. (personally i'd do neither)
Quote from: Mentalman on September 08, 2008, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on September 08, 2008, 01:31:33 PM
One of the greatest Irishmen in history also took the kings/queen's shilling. Tom Crean. If you ever get the chance, go to the one man play about Tom Crean. Some man for one man.
Brilliant play, the classic line being "That young officer said something, I tell you now, I never heard in all my years of service - 'I made a mistake!'". Crean's brother was reputedly shot by the IRA, as he was, or had been, a member of the RIC. But as stated earlier, those were different times, when an Irish alternative wasn't available.
Quote
Are the Northern prods seen by you as 'irishmen in british uniforms'
if 'yes' then what is the big sudden shock?
if 'no' then are you saying that they are infact NOT as Irish as say someone from Dundalk?
Not sure what you are getting at really. First off religion has nothing to do with it. I do count Northern Unionists as Irishmen, as I believe they are whether they like it or not by virtue of being born on the island of Ireland. I wouldn't expect them to necessarily join the Irish Army though, as their political allegiance is to the the British crown. As for as a big sudden shock, I don't think there is one. What this is about is lads who are citizens of the Republic of Ireland, with absolutely no dual loyalties, largely joining the British army for thrills, but then we are somehow supposed to feel sympathy, beyond that normally extended to anyone berived, when these characters meet their maker in service of a foreign government.
so they are irish, but not as irish as those with dual loyalties?
Quote from: maddog on September 09, 2008, 10:09:29 AM
Quote from: Tankie on September 09, 2008, 10:04:14 AM
Quote from: maddog on September 09, 2008, 08:44:29 AM
Quote from: Tankie on September 08, 2008, 11:24:32 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 08, 2008, 10:44:56 PM
Cannot feel any sympathy for these lads, they sign up knowing the risks, you take the money you take the associated risks.
I however do feel for their families as they are the ones who really suffer.
I just find it difficult to understand why someone (Irishman) would want to join the British army.
could you not say the same for people who supports British soccer teams or work for British companies etc?
Ach now thats some leap
It really depends on what way you look at it, its all well and good to say that an Irish man should not be fighting in the British army or support the British establishment but then in the next breath say its OK to travel over a support their soccer teams and economy. There are many British businesses that are bad for ireland that i do not see people say boycott them or don't shop in Tesco. Personally I see Britain as a neighbour and a partner in the EU so i don't care what people get up to but people who think its wrong to fight in the British army but support everything else are just hypocrites.
Ireland has always been closely linked with Britain in more ways that we would care to admit. However picking up a gun to fight for Lizzy is somewhat different to going over to watch Celtic for example. (personally i'd do neither)
there is a longer history of irishmen fighting for britain than there is of an irishman traveling to watch a british soccer match. People just decide to choose what is ok in their view that suits their life and then take the view of one thing is different to another. i dont care what people get upto in regard to either but i think the point should be made that people are very selective about what is ok to support when it suits what they are doing!
Tankie I would make the same statement about an Irishman joining the French/German/Russian armies.
If someone is killed whilst fighting for a foreign nation I will not shed any tears.
As for your economic or culturial/sporting comparisons, well they are just ott, but I'm sure you knew that already.
Yea, I support Chelsea and I just love hotdogs, I must say this Georgian conflict is a real headache
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 09, 2008, 11:24:49 AM
Tankie I would make the same statement about an Irishman joining the French/German/Russian armies.
If someone is killed whilst fighting for a foreign nation I will not shed any tears.
As for your economic or culturial/sporting comparisons, well they are just ott, but I'm sure you knew that already.
i think you are being a bit harsh on people joining foreign armies. without the world armies defending freedom we would probably be all been run by germans or russians, its all well and good to say that people shouldnt join other armies but if Ireland was ever to be attached the first place the Government would go running to is the Brits and I dont think many would complain about them landing in Ireland to defend our fredom just because we do not have an army big enough to defend the country. You are taking a very old world view on joining foreign armies.
Quote from: Tankie on September 09, 2008, 11:38:27 AM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 09, 2008, 11:24:49 AM
Tankie I would make the same statement about an Irishman joining the French/German/Russian armies.
If someone is killed whilst fighting for a foreign nation I will not shed any tears.
As for your economic or culturial/sporting comparisons, well they are just ott, but I'm sure you knew that already.
i think you are being a bit harsh on people joining foreign armies. without the world armies defending freedom we would probably be all been run by germans or russians, its all well and good to say that people shouldnt join other armies but if Ireland was ever to be attached the first place the Government would go running to is the Brits and I dont think many would complain about them landing in Ireland to defend our fredom just because we do not have an army big enough to defend the country. You are taking a very old world view on joining foreign armies.
There's many an Irishman down the centuries joined foreign armies to fight the English, cos it was the only way they could get back at the enemy. Personally, I feel nothing but contempt for Irishmen who join the British army, especially considering their behaviour on the streets of the six counties
Quote from: red hander on September 09, 2008, 11:42:25 AM
Quote from: Tankie on September 09, 2008, 11:38:27 AM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 09, 2008, 11:24:49 AM
Tankie I would make the same statement about an Irishman joining the French/German/Russian armies.
If someone is killed whilst fighting for a foreign nation I will not shed any tears.
As for your economic or culturial/sporting comparisons, well they are just ott, but I'm sure you knew that already.
i think you are being a bit harsh on people joining foreign armies. without the world armies defending freedom we would probably be all been run by germans or russians, its all well and good to say that people shouldnt join other armies but if Ireland was ever to be attached the first place the Government would go running to is the Brits and I dont think many would complain about them landing in Ireland to defend our fredom just because we do not have an army big enough to defend the country. You are taking a very old world view on joining foreign armies.
There's many an Irishman down the centuries joined foreign armies to fight the English, cos it was the only way they could get back at the enemy. Personally, I feel nothing but contempt for Irishmen who join the British army, especially considering their behaviour on the streets of the six counties
you feel nothing but contempt for your fellow irishman??
says a lot about you.
Quote from: donalmac99 on September 09, 2008, 11:47:27 AM
you feel nothing but contempt for your fellow irishman??
says a lot about you.
While I dont agree with red handers point, your argument does not make any sense.
Should he not have contempt for any group or individual as they are fellow irishmen?
Should people not have contempt for the members of say an irish neo nazi group as they are fellow irishmen?
Quote from: nifan on September 09, 2008, 11:56:49 AM
Quote from: donalmac99 on September 09, 2008, 11:47:27 AM
you feel nothing but contempt for your fellow irishman??
says a lot about you.
While I dont agree with red handers point, your argument does not make any sense.
Should he not have contempt for any group or individual as they are fellow irishmen?
Should people not have contempt for the members of say an irish neo nazi group as they are fellow irishmen?
i would have contempt for them as Nazis...not irishmen
hope that helps
Quote from: nifan on September 09, 2008, 11:56:49 AM
Quote from: donalmac99 on September 09, 2008, 11:47:27 AM
you feel nothing but contempt for your fellow irishman??
says a lot about you.
While I dont agree with red handers point, your argument does not make any sense.
Should he not have contempt for any group or individual as they are fellow irishmen?
Should people not have contempt for the members of say an irish neo nazi group as they are fellow irishmen?
Nifan, welcome back, hope you had a good honeymoon.
There's really no point in trying to have a discussion with donaldmc, he is only here to wind up and mix, he's also fond of personal insults and threatening people (see the thinly vailed ref to Tonys employers on another thread), also be careful as anything you say may be libellous, but at the end of the day, he isn't arsed! ;)
Hope that helps. ;) ;D
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 09, 2008, 12:07:43 PM
Quote from: nifan on September 09, 2008, 11:56:49 AM
Quote from: donalmac99 on September 09, 2008, 11:47:27 AM
you feel nothing but contempt for your fellow irishman??
says a lot about you.
While I dont agree with red handers point, your argument does not make any sense.
Should he not have contempt for any group or individual as they are fellow irishmen?
Should people not have contempt for the members of say an irish neo nazi group as they are fellow irishmen?
Nifan, welcome back, hope you had a good honeymoon.
There's really no point in trying to have a discussion with donaldmc, he is only here to wind up and mix, he's also fond of personal insults and threatening people (see the thinly vailed ref to Tonys employers on another thread), also be careful as anything you say may be libellous, but at the end of the day, he isn't arsed! ;)
yet another attack on me and another false accusation
post reported
Quote from: donalmac99 on September 09, 2008, 12:08:58 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 09, 2008, 12:07:43 PM
Quote from: nifan on September 09, 2008, 11:56:49 AM
Quote from: donalmac99 on September 09, 2008, 11:47:27 AM
you feel nothing but contempt for your fellow irishman??
says a lot about you.
While I dont agree with red handers point, your argument does not make any sense.
Should he not have contempt for any group or individual as they are fellow irishmen?
Should people not have contempt for the members of say an irish neo nazi group as they are fellow irishmen?
Nifan, welcome back, hope you had a good honeymoon.
There's really no point in trying to have a discussion with donaldmc, he is only here to wind up and mix, he's also fond of personal insults and threatening people (see the thinly vailed ref to Tonys employers on another thread), also be careful as anything you say may be libellous, but at the end of the day, he isn't arsed! ;)
yet another attack on me and another false accusation
post reported
You will obviously not be satisfied until either you get someone banned or get banned yourself. ::)
Quote from: donalmac99 on September 09, 2008, 12:08:58 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 09, 2008, 12:07:43 PM
Quote from: nifan on September 09, 2008, 11:56:49 AM
Quote from: donalmac99 on September 09, 2008, 11:47:27 AM
you feel nothing but contempt for your fellow irishman??
says a lot about you.
While I dont agree with red handers point, your argument does not make any sense.
Should he not have contempt for any group or individual as they are fellow irishmen?
Should people not have contempt for the members of say an irish neo nazi group as they are fellow irishmen?
Nifan, welcome back, hope you had a good honeymoon.
There's really no point in trying to have a discussion with donaldmc, he is only here to wind up and mix, he's also fond of personal insults and threatening people (see the thinly vailed ref to Tonys employers on another thread), also be careful as anything you say may be libellous, but at the end of the day, he isn't arsed! ;)
yet another attack on me and another false accusation
post reported
Where is the false accusation?
dungal is giving anyone who comes on here for reasonable debate a bad name, even themmuns ;) (or someone who is 1/2 themmuns, like nifan. How did the honeymoon go? )
He reported someome :o
Quote from: donalmac99 on September 09, 2008, 11:47:27 AM
Quote from: red hander on September 09, 2008, 11:42:25 AM
Quote from: Tankie on September 09, 2008, 11:38:27 AM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 09, 2008, 11:24:49 AM
Tankie I would make the same statement about an Irishman joining the French/German/Russian armies.
If someone is killed whilst fighting for a foreign nation I will not shed any tears.
As for your economic or culturial/sporting comparisons, well they are just ott, but I'm sure you knew that already.
i think you are being a bit harsh on people joining foreign armies. without the world armies defending freedom we would probably be all been run by germans or russians, its all well and good to say that people shouldnt join other armies but if Ireland was ever to be attached the first place the Government would go running to is the Brits and I dont think many would complain about them landing in Ireland to defend our fredom just because we do not have an army big enough to defend the country. You are taking a very old world view on joining foreign armies.
There's many an Irishman down the centuries joined foreign armies to fight the English, cos it was the only way they could get back at the enemy. Personally, I feel nothing but contempt for Irishmen who join the British army, especially considering their behaviour on the streets of the six counties
you feel nothing but contempt for your fellow irishman??
says a lot about you.
No, I feel nothing but contempt for my fellow Irishmen who join the British army.
says a lot about your ability to understand basic english
Quote from: Tankie on September 09, 2008, 11:38:27 AM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 09, 2008, 11:24:49 AM
Tankie I would make the same statement about an Irishman joining the French/German/Russian armies.
If someone is killed whilst fighting for a foreign nation I will not shed any tears.
As for your economic or culturial/sporting comparisons, well they are just ott, but I'm sure you knew that already.
i think you are being a bit harsh on people joining foreign armies. without the world armies defending freedom we would probably be all been run by germans or russians, its all well and good to say that people shouldnt join other armies but if Ireland was ever to be attached the first place the Government would go running to is the Brits and I dont think many would complain about them landing in Ireland to defend our fredom just because we do not have an army big enough to defend the country. You are taking a very old world view on joining foreign armies.
You must be off your head if you think the British army cares one rats arse about freedoms. Neither do the Yanks. All they care about is their own selfish interests. Sometimes that overlaps with the freedom of peoples in different parts of the world and when it does it becomes justification to the media. Most times it suppresses peoples freedoms but these people get labelled as terrorists, extremist and the media lap it up. The brits would not land here to defend our freedom unless there was something in it for them. Maybe if rain becomes a commodity we can expect a visit from these galant heros or God help us if the corrib gas field turns out to be massive. The british and yanks are responsible for genocide. After the gulf war the UN introduced sanctions (sponsored by our freedom loving heros in the US & UK) that resulted in the death of minimum 500,000 Iraqi children. I know they are only little brown people that live in the desert but still! I despise anyone who would join such a group of bastards for thrills, expecially someone from Ireland that should no better than most exactly what the brits are capable of. Same goes for the Yanks that use their military and secret service to try an topple democracys that won't play ball with them in South America.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 09, 2008, 02:57:21 PM
Quote from: Tankie on September 09, 2008, 11:38:27 AM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 09, 2008, 11:24:49 AM
Tankie I would make the same statement about an Irishman joining the French/German/Russian armies.
If someone is killed whilst fighting for a foreign nation I will not shed any tears.
As for your economic or culturial/sporting comparisons, well they are just ott, but I'm sure you knew that already.
i think you are being a bit harsh on people joining foreign armies. without the world armies defending freedom we would probably be all been run by germans or russians, its all well and good to say that people shouldnt join other armies but if Ireland was ever to be attached the first place the Government would go running to is the Brits and I dont think many would complain about them landing in Ireland to defend our fredom just because we do not have an army big enough to defend the country. You are taking a very old world view on joining foreign armies.
You must be off your head if you think the British army cares one rats arse about freedoms. Neither do the Yanks. All they care about is their own selfish interests. Sometimes that overlaps with the freedom of peoples in different parts of the world and when it does it becomes justification to the media. Most times it suppresses peoples freedoms but these people get labelled as terrorists, extremist and the media lap it up. The brits would not land here to defend our freedom unless there was something in it for them. Maybe if rain becomes a commodity we can expect a visit from these galant heros or God help us if the corrib gas field turns out to be massive. The british and yanks are responsible for genocide. After the gulf war the UN introduced sanctions (sponsored by our freedom loving heros in the US & UK) that resulted in the death of minimum 500,000 Iraqi children. I know they are only little brown people that live in the desert but still! I despise anyone who would join such a group of b**tards for thrills, expecially someone from Ireland that should no better than most exactly what the brits are capable of. Same goes for the Yanks that use their military and secret service to try an topple democracys that won't play ball with them in South America.
what has gone on in the past has nothing to do with my point that if we were being invaded and the brits offered to help i dont think their would be too many complaining. Anyway if we had an army to defend the country it wouldnt be an issue but we all know that someone else will save us.
Quote from: Tankie on September 09, 2008, 04:21:49 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 09, 2008, 02:57:21 PM
Quote from: Tankie on September 09, 2008, 11:38:27 AM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 09, 2008, 11:24:49 AM
Tankie I would make the same statement about an Irishman joining the French/German/Russian armies.
If someone is killed whilst fighting for a foreign nation I will not shed any tears.
As for your economic or culturial/sporting comparisons, well they are just ott, but I'm sure you knew that already.
i think you are being a bit harsh on people joining foreign armies. without the world armies defending freedom we would probably be all been run by germans or russians, its all well and good to say that people shouldnt join other armies but if Ireland was ever to be attached the first place the Government would go running to is the Brits and I dont think many would complain about them landing in Ireland to defend our fredom just because we do not have an army big enough to defend the country. You are taking a very old world view on joining foreign armies.
You must be off your head if you think the British army cares one rats arse about freedoms. Neither do the Yanks. All they care about is their own selfish interests. Sometimes that overlaps with the freedom of peoples in different parts of the world and when it does it becomes justification to the media. Most times it suppresses peoples freedoms but these people get labelled as terrorists, extremist and the media lap it up. The brits would not land here to defend our freedom unless there was something in it for them. Maybe if rain becomes a commodity we can expect a visit from these galant heros or God help us if the corrib gas field turns out to be massive. The british and yanks are responsible for genocide. After the gulf war the UN introduced sanctions (sponsored by our freedom loving heros in the US & UK) that resulted in the death of minimum 500,000 Iraqi children. I know they are only little brown people that live in the desert but still! I despise anyone who would join such a group of b**tards for thrills, expecially someone from Ireland that should no better than most exactly what the brits are capable of. Same goes for the Yanks that use their military and secret service to try an topple democracys that won't play ball with them in South America.
what has gone on in the past has nothing to do with my point that if we were being invaded and the brits offered to help i dont think their would be too many complaining. Anyway if we had an army to defend the country it wouldnt be an issue but we all know that someone else will save us.
In fairness if Ireland was invaded, the only reason the Brits would get involved is because they wouldn't want a hostile force sitting in an island less then 60 miles from them.
Its not that simple. Learn from the past. Brits invade to help poor Ireland, when will they leave? Did they not invade 100's of years ago to help Diarmuid mcMurrugh and when did they leave. Britain is not in the business of helping people or countries, only themselves.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on September 06, 2008, 12:25:52 PM
Blood thirsty pricks, they'll be at home in the British Army.
They`d be equally at home in Cullyhanna then ;)
Quote from: maddog on September 09, 2008, 08:44:29 AM
Quote from: Tankie on September 08, 2008, 11:24:32 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 08, 2008, 10:44:56 PM
Cannot feel any sympathy for these lads, they sign up knowing the risks, you take the money you take the associated risks.
I however do feel for their families as they are the ones who really suffer.
I just find it difficult to understand why someone (Irishman) would want to join the British army.
could you not say the same for people who supports british soccer teams or work for british companies etc?
Ach now thats some leap
What do you mean maddog? You wouldnt die or kill for the company you work for? You wouldn't take a bullet for the person sitting at the desk beside you? ???
This debate is running way way off track.
I see what you are saying Tankie, but supporting Liverpool is a long way off signing up to invade Iraq.
As for army's of big nations saving small ones from the yoke of tyranny, I point you to our own history.
As I said previously Irishmen, especially of a nationalist/republican background, serving in foreign armies is part of our history, particularly during the World Wars.
However in the modern era we have our own defense forces, of whom we should be very proud.
Those who choose to serve in the forces of other countries for reasons of adventure gain little sympathy with me.