Did anyone else see the Spotlight programme last night? Would make you sick thinking about the intimidation that several catholic families have endured in the past 10 years in this village. One now former resident had CCTV and they showed footage of his house being attacked by arsonists as his wife and child slept upstairs, but for the grace of god they managed to escape.
I have to say the thugs at the end did more to highlight the obvious sectarianism that exists in the village more than any TV programme could ever do.
The Spotlight reporter was interviewing Paul Butler (local MLA for the constituency) and a few 'heavies' started to loiter and shout abuse at the group. Next thing a load of scum bags in a black Astra drove right up bseide the reporter and did their best to knock them down!! One Johnny Adair lookalike - who was their spokesperson though I am certain unelected - (with Linfield hat and coat, lucky Tony is in Liverpool lads) took it on himself to spit at the camera, it was disgusting appalling behaviour and to be honest showed this shower of lowlife in the best possible light in my opinion.
As someome who comes from what can be described as a strongly nationalist working class area I can safely say that my community would not behave like that if people from another 'persuasion' moved in, in fact where I live has several ethnic groups now and they live free from intimidation.
The main point of the programme was to show sectarianism still is very much prevalent in the 6 counties and there is no doubt it exists on both sides, but believe me folks you would not believe the hate and vitriol that Spotlight showed last night from this group of thugs.
I watched it and I have to say that the Catholics that have moved to a place like that obviously don't understand the mindset of some of these loyalist places.
They appear to have moved from West Belfast where everybody is nationalist and they were probably naive in where they chose to go.
I grew up close to Ballymena and there are a lot of loylaist villages in North Antrim where Catholics are not welcome and they would be chased out of there.
My God, it's almost as if some Protestant children were brought up to hate Catholics just as erm, German children were taught to hate Jews under the Nazis.
Quoteglens73
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Re: Welcome to Stoneyford
« Reply #1 on: Today at 11:17:22 AM »
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I watched it and I have to say that the Catholics that have moved to a place like that obviously don't understand the mindset of some of these loyalist places.
They appear to have moved from West Belfast where everybody is nationalist and they were probably naive in where they chose to go.
I grew up close to Ballymena and there are a lot of loylaist villages in North Antrim where Catholics are not welcome and they would be chased out of there.
Aye your absolutely right Glensman, stupid f**k*n taigs.
Quote from: guy crouchback on April 09, 2008, 11:22:12 AM
Quoteglens73
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Re: Welcome to Stoneyford
« Reply #1 on: Today at 11:17:22 AM »
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I watched it and I have to say that the Catholics that have moved to a place like that obviously don't understand the mindset of some of these loyalist places.
They appear to have moved from West Belfast where everybody is nationalist and they were probably naive in where they chose to go.
I grew up close to Ballymena and there are a lot of loylaist villages in North Antrim where Catholics are not welcome and they would be chased out of there.
Aye your absolutely right Glensman, stupid f**k*n taigs.
I am not saying they were stupid just that they were naive of the reality that exists in places like that.
There is unbelievable bigotry in and around Ballymena and many other places in Antrim, if a lot of loyalists in these places had their way Catholics wouldn't breathe the same air as them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/tv/programmes/spotlight/index.shtml
would this be the right program? seems like the right topic but dated march 11th
Yeah that's the one alright... if you get a chance to watch it on iplayer you should... it will definitely open your eyes to a few things!
Quote from: thejuice on April 09, 2008, 11:28:55 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/tv/programmes/spotlight/index.shtml
would this be the right program? seems like the right topic but dated march 11th
That's the one, broadcast must have been delayed for some reason.
Maybe to ensure all the Catholics featured on the show had moved out by the time it was broadcast.
Showed them up for the cavemen scum that they really are. The IQ levels would not be too high!
Christ thats brutal, what sort of scum bags are they. Burning houses, kicking in doors, burning halls, throwing stones at kids, intimidation of teenagers because of their clothing, threatening to abduct kids, what sort of a degenerate individual carrys on like that. People really have a long way to go up North still. Some clearly arent interested in mixing.
As for the lads at the end, well what can you say. I can imagine that many in that community would have a certain problem with a former IRA man and convicted murderer being interviewed even if he is an elected MLA but those knackers are nothing short of thugs.
On the other hand I think I know that guy who was coaching that American Football team. He's only known to me as Yank, first time I heard his real name. I played in the IAFL and its generally sectarian free, as he said people from both communities play.
Where is Stonyford?
Kind of between Crumlin and Dundrod, it's about 10 minutes away from West Belfast
It 10 years it will have changed beyond recognition.
There was a comment on Slugger O'Toole, which slightly worried me,
QuoteWhy is there a need to force Catholics into Protestant houses?
an area which is predominately Protestant has no need to be 'equalised', why can't it be left alone?
Reminded me of 50's America,
dont want any n****rs in my neighbourhood attitude.
However on said website there was comments alluding to similar attacks on the Prodestant communities in Rasharkin and Dunloy............
As far as I know there is no protestant community in Dunloy. There is an orange hall and a church but those who attend both come from outlying areas, farms etc not actually from the village. Believe me Davy Tweed never lived in Dunloy. As for Rasharkin the only major attack i remember in Rasharkin was about 10-15 years ago when about 50 loyalists from Ballymoney swamped an estate in the middle of the night and started smashing windows, cars, people, generally anything they could get there hands on.
It's quite obvious that the thugs at the end could threaten and cause violence with impunity just like many others throughout the 6 counties. The cops will shrug their shoulders saying "we know who they are but what can we do?" So long as they arent actually committing murder the PSNI are happy to keep things at an acceptable level of violence short of killing.
As in Castle Street 2 weeks ago the cops could easily of apprehended the culprits but preferred to disperse them off home from outside Jurys hotel.
I'm sure this wont go down well with some posters, and I know theres people like this on both sides before ye piss yer cacks, but it seems to me that the levels of sectarian violence and downright bigotry seems to be much higher from the unionist community these days.
Of course I dont have facts of figures to back this up (before Sammy asks), its just a general observation.
Maybe its just me.
In what section of the community does racism raise its head up the most?
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on April 10, 2008, 01:55:35 PM
In what section of the community does racism raise its head up the most?
I'd be surprised if it wasnt evenly split.
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 10, 2008, 01:44:31 PM
I'm sure this wont go down well with some posters, and I know theres people like this on both sides before ye piss yer cacks, but it seems to me that the levels of sectarian violence and downright bigotry seems to be much higher from the unionist community these days.
Of course I dont have facts of figures to back this up (before Sammy asks), its just a general observation.
Maybe its just me.
Of course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism. There is no such thing as unionist ideology and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity, the only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion. Clinging to and emphasising that difference, even though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church, gives them an identity. Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.
The only problem is that when you continually emphasise and promote the differences between groups of people in order to separate yourself, you will get people like the Stoneyford mob who actually believe they are great patriots and defenders of their community by behaving in such a way as they are maintain the identity by keeping the other religion out. Now don't get me wrong as there are many such idiots on the other side of the community but as our identity is not based on difference, thankfully the problem is not nearly so bad. The only thing is that there are so many people on the unionist side riding the gravy train of bigotry that it's hard to see when it will end.
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on April 10, 2008, 01:55:35 PM
In what section of the community does racism raise its head up the most?
Well I don't know of any Nationalist/Republican organisations or groupings with links to the BNP, C18 etc...
So draw your own conclusion
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 10, 2008, 01:44:31 PM
I'm sure this wont go down well with some posters, and I know theres people like this on both sides before ye piss yer cacks, but it seems to me that the levels of sectarian violence and downright bigotry seems to be much higher from the unionist community these days.
Of course I dont have facts of figures to back this up (before Sammy asks), its just a general observation.
Maybe its just me.
Class ;D
Jonny Adair was into the NF and UB40 , work that one out .
Quote from: downredblack on April 10, 2008, 02:35:13 PM
Jonny Adair was into the NF and UB40 , work that one out .
UB40 is either nostalgia - Unemployment Benefit Form 40 - or more likely, it's a line that goes something like Jamaican rude boy - ska - rocksteady - reggae - UB40. Skinheads grew out of mod and ska/reggae, then later punk, some taking up the politics of white nationalism. Hence why a lot of NF, old school skinheads, are into Jamaican music!
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 10, 2008, 01:44:31 PM
I'm sure this wont go down well with some posters, and I know theres people like this on both sides before ye piss yer cacks, but it seems to me that the levels of sectarian violence and downright bigotry seems to be much higher from the unionist community these days.
Of course I dont have facts of figures to back this up (before Sammy asks), its just a general observation.
Maybe its just me.
From a different perspective the rise in support for Sinn Fein could be viewed as an increase in bigotry within the nationalist community. How many other "politicians'"careers would survive carrying the coffin of someone who had just butchered 9 of his own constituents? In how many other countries would a convicted murderer be elected to an administrative body of any sort?
If you are that desperate to even things up that you need to suggest voting for Sinn Fein is bigotry, then my initial guess must be right!!
:D :D :D
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 10, 2008, 07:47:33 PM
If you are that desperate to even things up that you need to suggest voting for Sinn Fein is bigotry, then my initial guess must be right!!
Pitiful comment (on top of your previous pitiful comment).
There are sectarian thugs on both sides, they have been around for a very long time and will be for a long time to come, unfortunately. The fact that people vote for them only perpetuates the problem.
A few years down the line, when we're a few generations away from the Troubles and people vote, for people, based on their abilities and policies, rather than how much hate they spout things will start to change but not before then.
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 10, 2008, 07:47:33 PM
If you are that desperate to even things up that you need to suggest voting for Sinn Fein is bigotry, then my initial guess must be right!!
:D :D :D
Not desperate at all, nor am I trying to "even things up", because I can't for the life of me see how bigotry can be measured. It's a bit too complex for that.
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PMOf course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism. There is no such thing as unionist ideology and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity, the only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion. Clinging to and emphasising that difference, even though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church, gives them an identity. Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.
Brilliant, use sick sectarian bigottry to explain why Unionists are all sectarian bigots. You really couldn't make it up.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on April 10, 2008, 06:51:53 PMFrom a different perspective the rise in support for Sinn Fein could be viewed as an increase in bigotry within the nationalist community. How many other "politicians'"careers would survive carrying the coffin of someone who had just butchered 9 of his own constituents? In how many other countries would a convicted murderer be elected to an administrative body of any sort?
After most revolutionary wars, I'd say the total would be approaching 100%. As you say, perspective matters.
Quote from: SammyG on April 10, 2008, 08:06:13 PM
Brilliant, use sick sectarian bigottry to explain why Unionists are all sectarian bigots. You really couldn't make it up.
Sorry Sammy, is there something in my post you would like to challenge or refute?
Quote from: deiseach on April 10, 2008, 08:10:10 PM
Quote from: Solomon Kane on April 10, 2008, 06:51:53 PMFrom a different perspective the rise in support for Sinn Fein could be viewed as an increase in bigotry within the nationalist community. How many other "politicians'"careers would survive carrying the coffin of someone who had just butchered 9 of his own constituents? In how many other countries would a convicted murderer be elected to an administrative body of any sort?
After most revolutionary wars, I'd say the total would be approaching 100%. As you say, perspective matters.
And again, the "troubles" were not a war from everyone's perspective.
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PMOf course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism.
Complete horseshit
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
There is no such thing as unionist ideology
I've no idea what that even means. There are lots of Unionist identities but I don't think there's an ideology and am not sure why you'd think there should be.
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity,
Again total horseshit.
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
the only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion.
Who or what are 'the natives'? Is that a new version of 'building an Ireland of equals'?
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Clinging to and emphasising that difference,
What you mean like somebody who thinks being here for 4 or 500 years doesn't qualify you as a 'native'?
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
even though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church, gives them an identity.
You seem to be getting confused. Just because you think of everything in sectarian terms, don't trry and put us all in the same box.
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.
I presume this is either a pisstake or you've never actually listened to any of the shite that passes for broadcasting on Radio 6 counties (or even read any of the posts on this board).
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
The only problem is that when you continually emphasise and promote the differences between groups of people in order to separate yourself, you will get people like the Stoneyford mob who actually believe they are great patriots and defenders of their community by behaving in such a way as they are maintain the identity by keeping the other religion out.
The only problem when you continually emphasise and promote difference is you end up with nobs who think that bombing and slaughtering their fellow men makes them great patriots and defenders of their community.
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Now don't get me wrong as there are many such idiots on the other side of the community but as our identity is not based on difference, thankfully the problem is not nearly so bad.
Truely pathetic.
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
The only thing is that there are so many people on the unionist side riding the gravy train of bigotry that it's hard to see when it will end.
Fcuk me a SF supporter talking about gravy trains (as per my previous post, you couldn't make it up).
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 08:27:39 PM
Sorry Sammy, is there something in my post you would like to challenge or refute?
Sorry I didn't have time earlier, full response now filed, enjoy.
Quote from: SammyG on April 10, 2008, 09:43:01 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 08:27:39 PM
Sorry Sammy, is there something in my post you would like to challenge or refute?
Sorry I didn't have time earlier, full response now filed, enjoy.
SammyG - Whether you like it or not Unionism IS built on sectarianism and bigotry - if you believe it is not - then tell us what are the founding stones of Unionism? equality?, freedom of speech and religion for all?
Unionism MUST remain steeped in sectarianism and bigotry against all things Irish - or else it dies, will the attitudes ever change?
its well past the time for the change in attitude - time Unionists stood up and said enough of the hatred within their own community - tell the bollox in the pub slabberin about fenians to grow up, or walk out - quit going to bars where this shit is peddled - you want to get rid of it from football games? stop going until these hoors are refused entry, take the money elsewhere and then something will be done - talking about how you don't agree with the C18 chants won't work - do something about it - don't laugh things off when in company and the jokes and bitterness start flying (i'm not saying you do)
Same goes for republican chants and songs in bars and wherever, that isn't Irish culture - let it go - nothing worse than 16 yr olds slabbering or singing and "up the Ra" chants - complete and utter disgrace
Ach Sammy don't be getting angry, a considered and reasoned rebuttal would have done. We've had this debate before and it's still my contention that unionism is defined by what it opposes not by putting forward principles that it supports. Republicanism, no matter how much it has been disgraced by the mistakes and blood of the troubles is still underpinned by the promotion of the principles of freedom, equality and importantly, freedom of consciousness within a secular state.
As for my comment on the 'gravy train of bigotry', what I'm trying to get at is that, it's in the interests of Irish republicans to break down barriers within our community, even if that is only to further the aim of national self determination. Whereas it's in the interests of unionist politicians and leaders to keep the sore of sectarian division running raw as the fear of the other side getting a foot up is what keeps them in their £60k a year jobs.
I agree with everything you say there as well Fishbat.
Quote from: Donagh on April 11, 2008, 12:18:06 AM
As for my comment on the 'gravy train of bigotry', what I'm trying to get at is that, it's in the interests of Irish republicans to break down barriers within our community, even if that is only to further the aim of national self determination. Whereas it's in the interests of unionist politicians and leaders to keep the sore of sectarian division running raw as the fear of the other side getting a foot up is what keeps them in their £60k a year jobs.
Look in the mirror Donagh, It might not be pretty, but look in the mirror.
Quote from: Donagh on April 11, 2008, 12:18:06 AM
Ach Sammy don't be getting angry, a considered and reasoned rebuttal would have done.
Not angry at all, I'd say pity was the main emotion. It's quite sad that an obviously reasonably clever and switched on bloke, can be so bound up with hatred that he can't see the wood for the trees.
Quote from: Donagh on April 11, 2008, 12:18:06 AM
We've had this debate before and it's still my contention that unionism is defined by what it opposes not by putting forward principles that it supports. Republicanism, no matter how much it has been disgraced by the mistakes and blood of the troubles is still underpinned by the promotion of the principles of freedom, equality and importantly, freedom of consciousness within a secular state.
Freedom and equality for all (as long as you're a Republican). As George Orwell (nearly) said 'all animals are equal but some Sinners are more equal than others'.
Quote from: Donagh on April 11, 2008, 12:18:06 AM
As for my comment on the 'gravy train of bigotry', what I'm trying to get at is that, it's in the interests of Irish republicans to break down barriers within our community, even if that is only to further the aim of national self determination. Whereas it's in the interests of unionist politicians and leaders to keep the sore of sectarian division running raw as the fear of the other side getting a foot up is what keeps them in their £60k a year jobs.
As I've already said I presume this is a pisstake. As you support a party that abandoned every principle it had ever held, in order to get it's nose in the trough, I'm not sure you should be accusing people of jumping on gravy trains.
Quote from: Fishbat on April 10, 2008, 11:02:06 PMSammyG - Whether you like it or not Unionism IS built on sectarianism and bigotry - if you believe it is not - then tell us what are the founding stones of Unionism? equality?, freedom of speech and religion for all?
Unionism MUST remain steeped in sectarianism and bigotry against all things Irish - or else it dies, will the attitudes ever change?
As usual you miss the point that Unionists are IRISH, how can we be bigotted against 'all things Irish', that would mean we were bigotted against ourselves.
Quote from: Donagh on April 11, 2008, 12:18:06 AM
its well past the time for the change in attitude - time Unionists stood up and said enough of the hatred within their own community
I have never said anything else and have worked with youth groups etc to try and move people away from paramilitary shite.
Quote from: Donagh on April 11, 2008, 12:18:06 AM
- tell the bollox in the pub slabberin about fenians to grow up, or walk out - quit going to bars where this shit is peddled - you want to get rid of it from football games? stop going until these hoors are refused entry, take the money elsewhere and then something will be done
I have no idea what that means, I wouldn't dream of drinking in a pub where that sort of shite was going on and if I did hear it I'd try and do something about it.
Quote from: Donagh on April 11, 2008, 12:18:06 AM
- talking about how you don't agree with the C18 chants won't work - do something about it - don't laugh things off when in company and the jokes and bitterness start flying (i'm not saying you do)
I have spent most of my adult life fighting against C18/NF/British Movement (sometimes physically) so I don't think I'll be taking any lessons, thanks all the same.
Quote from: Donagh on April 11, 2008, 12:18:06 AM
Same goes for republican chants and songs in bars and wherever, that isn't Irish culture - let it go - nothing worse than 16 yr olds slabbering or singing and "up the Ra" chants - complete and utter disgrace
Indeed but sure bigottry is a one way street and singing Up the RA isn't bigottry.
Quote from: Chrisowc on April 11, 2008, 07:40:56 AM
Look in the mirror Donagh, It might not be pretty, but look in the mirror.
Sorry Chris, that's a bit cryptic for me. Perhaps if you have something to say you could be a little clearer?
Sammy as you have yet to challenge any of my assertions about unionism, I take it you agree?
Quote from: Donagh on April 11, 2008, 09:59:05 AM
Sammy as you have yet to challenge any of my assertions about unionism, I take it you agree?
See my previous 3 or 4 posts.
See my previous post.
Quote from: Donagh on April 11, 2008, 10:11:22 AM
See my previous post.
Sorry you've lost me. I answered your post twice (once with a one-liner and once with a bit of detail), you replied and I answered your reply, what did I miss?
Quote from: SammyG on April 11, 2008, 10:12:57 AM
Quote from: Donagh on April 11, 2008, 10:11:22 AM
See my previous post.
Sorry you've lost me. I answered your post twice (once with a one-liner and once with a bit of detail), you replied and I answered your reply, what did I miss?
You haven't addressed any of my points.
Quote from: Donagh on April 11, 2008, 10:49:13 AM
Quote from: SammyG on April 11, 2008, 10:12:57 AM
Quote from: Donagh on April 11, 2008, 10:11:22 AM
See my previous post.
Sorry you've lost me. I answered your post twice (once with a one-liner and once with a bit of detail), you replied and I answered your reply, what did I miss?
You haven't addressed any of my points.
Which points have I missed? I thought I'd addressed all of them but if you can tell me what, you think, I missed, I'll have another go.
Quote from: SammyG on April 10, 2008, 08:03:31 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 10, 2008, 07:47:33 PM
If you are that desperate to even things up that you need to suggest voting for Sinn Fein is bigotry, then my initial guess must be right!!
Pitiful comment (on top of your previous pitiful comment).
So a general observation, in which I clearly acknowledged there are problems on both sides, and which I said could well be wrong is pitiful?
As is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?
Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.
Or is the problem that my own observations, based on a combination of personal, eye witness and media reports arent what you wanted to hear?
Dont worry too much about it Sammy, as Solomon said, its not something you can measure, was just an observation.
Although if my observations said that there seemed to me ("seemed to me" being very important words here) that the Nationalist community was more bigoted that the Unionists, you would have kept your sly mouth shut wouldnt you ::)
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 11, 2008, 01:50:58 PMAs is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?
Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.
So you think voting for a mob of sectarian gangsters isn't a display of bigottry. Fcuk me I wouldn't like to think what you'd have to do to be called a bigot.
Quote from: SammyG on April 11, 2008, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 11, 2008, 01:50:58 PMAs is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?
Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.
So you think voting for a mob of sectarian gangsters isn't a display of bigottry. Fcuk me I wouldn't like to think what you'd have to do to be called a bigot.
So there we have it from Sammy G.
Vote Sinn Fein and you are a bigot.
Thus proving my initial observation!
Its come full circle!
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 11, 2008, 04:46:19 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 11, 2008, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 11, 2008, 01:50:58 PMAs is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?
Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.
So you think voting for a mob of sectarian gangsters isn't a display of bigottry. Fcuk me I wouldn't like to think what you'd have to do to be called a bigot.
So there we have it from Sammy G.
Vote Sinn Fein and you are a bigot.
Thus proving my initial observation!
Its come full circle!
How in the name of fcuk does me opposing sectarian bigottry, prove that all Unionists are sectarian bigots?
Quote from: SammyG on April 11, 2008, 04:48:36 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 11, 2008, 04:46:19 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 11, 2008, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 11, 2008, 01:50:58 PMAs is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?
Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.
So you think voting for a mob of sectarian gangsters isn't a display of bigottry. Fcuk me I wouldn't like to think what you'd have to do to be called a bigot.
So there we have it from Sammy G.
Vote Sinn Fein and you are a bigot.
Thus proving my initial observation!
Its come full circle!
How in the name of fcuk does me opposing sectarian bigottry, prove that all Unionists are sectarian bigots?
???
Why are you asking me?
I never suggested that.
Jaysus you are some man for talking the auld shite Sammy!
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 11, 2008, 05:19:08 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 11, 2008, 04:48:36 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 11, 2008, 04:46:19 PM
Quote from: SammyG on April 11, 2008, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 11, 2008, 01:50:58 PMAs is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?
Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.
So you think voting for a mob of sectarian gangsters isn't a display of bigottry. Fcuk me I wouldn't like to think what you'd have to do to be called a bigot.
So there we have it from Sammy G.
Vote Sinn Fein and you are a bigot.
Thus proving my initial observation!
Its come full circle!
How in the name of fcuk does me opposing sectarian bigottry, prove that all Unionists are sectarian bigots?
???
Why are you asking me?
I never suggested that.
Jaysus you are some man for talking the auld shite Sammy!
Sorry if I've missed what you're saying but you said I'd proved the original point (namely all Unionists are bigots) and I asked why? If that isn't what you meant then try again.
Quote from: SammyG on April 11, 2008, 05:31:55 PM
you said I'd proved the original point (namely all Unionists are bigots) and I asked why? If that isn't what you meant then try again.
Namely all Unionists are bigots indeed ::)
This is what I actually said.
"but it seems to me that the levels of sectarian violence and downright bigotry seems to be much higher from the unionist community these days"
Now if you got ALL UNIONISTS ARE BIGOTS from that, well I really despair.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on April 10, 2008, 08:35:54 PM
Quote from: deiseach on April 10, 2008, 08:10:10 PM
Quote from: Solomon Kane on April 10, 2008, 06:51:53 PMFrom a different perspective the rise in support for Sinn Fein could be viewed as an increase in bigotry within the nationalist community. How many other "politicians'"careers would survive carrying the coffin of someone who had just butchered 9 of his own constituents? In how many other countries would a convicted murderer be elected to an administrative body of any sort?
After most revolutionary wars, I'd say the total would be approaching 100%. As you say, perspective matters.
And again, the "troubles" were not a war from everyone's perspective.
Agreed.
Quote from: Donagh on April 09, 2008, 11:19:27 AM
My God, it's almost as if some Protestant children were brought up to hate Catholics just as erm, German children were taught to hate Jews under the Nazis.
Only if you're an idiot with little or no knowledge of the Third Reich.
The first 15 words of your sentence were accurate, but, as ever, they just didn't make sexy enough copy...
Quote from: SammyG on April 11, 2008, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 11, 2008, 01:50:58 PMAs is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?
Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.
So you think voting for a mob of sectarian gangsters isn't a display of bigottry. Fcuk me I wouldn't like to think what you'd have to do to be called a bigot.
Sammy even by your standards that is a steaming pile of dung statement!
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 10, 2008, 01:44:31 PM
I'm sure this wont go down well with some posters, and I know theres people like this on both sides before ye piss yer cacks, but it seems to me that the levels of sectarian violence and downright bigotry seems to be much higher from the unionist community these days.
Of course I dont have facts of figures to back this up (before Sammy asks), its just a general observation.
Maybe its just me.
Hmm. I have to say, and I know I'm only dealing with part of your point here, my experience on here and on Slugger from reading and indeed receiving the comments of a fair few (a minority, obviously) posters is that there's plenty of this sort of attitude:
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Of course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism. There is no such thing as unionist ideology and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity, the only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion. Clinging to and emphasising that difference, even though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church, gives them an identity. Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.
Sectarian attitudes are often rooted in stereotypes and preconceptions. Those of sectarian Protestants towards Catholics (note to Donagh, I'm using the 'religious' label here in an effort to avoid a debate with anyone who might challenge the meaning of the term 'sectarianism') no doubt involve certain stereotypes. It seems to me that anti-Protestant (or anti-unionist, if you prefer) sectarianism is also based on certain sterotypes - leading among them is the idea that the Prods are evil supremacist bigots.
A few eclectic (and I'll accept, completely anecdotal unless you've seen or remember the threads in question) - I said on one thread in here about favourite comedies that I disliked Only Fools and Horses and especially the Del Boy character - I was met with a comment that this wasn't surprising, and an allusion agreed to by another poster that I was some sort of dour humourless DUP supporter. To give another example, if I or any other 'unionist' poster debate NI history/politics with lynchbhoy, for example, we'll be met with the accusation that we're trotting out the 'oo/dup/loyalist' line that has been drilled into us all. Another example was a recent thread on Slugger on the meanings of Britishness and Irishness, one poster was questioning the meaning of Britishness in a none-too-subtle attempt to say 'you unionists don't really have an identity' - when she was told that going to Venice and asking the natives about their Italianness mightn't produce a form of answer like she wanted, she then made a comment along the lines that this reference to 'the natives' was racist and that this showed the underlying thoughts of unionists. In this way it's a bit like that "mask slipping" comments that are seen now and again on here in relation to myself and other posters.
Well put points MW.
Would you agree with Sammy's statement that people who vote Sinn Fein are Bigots?
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Of course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism.
That's extremely inaccurate. Some strands of unionism have been and are. To speak personally, my own unionism is based on support for the Union, the fact that I identify with the British state and people(s), and the fact that Northern Ireland is my country and Britishness is my nationality.
Quote
There is no such thing as unionist ideology
Wrong. Try reading for example Paul Bew's 'Ideology and the Irish Question'.
Quote
and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity,
Two points here. One - who does? If you pick out one strand of modern British identity, inevitably it won't 'fit in' with the rest. And two, multiculturalism (note before anyone tries - this is not associated with multiracialism) is a creed seems to have now been rejected by the establishment and indeed is identified with some of the major problems facing British society.
Quotethe only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion.
As ever one little phrase of yours provides a goldmine for challenging.
Firstly, there's that phrase 'the natives' again. (Look at what I said above, folks). An unsubtle effort to paint unionists as supremacist racial bigots, perhaps paint them in the light of a 20th-century white settler in Africa looking down on the Africans? Or do you not see unionists as 'native' to this place, even through they have roots here going back centuries?
Assuming you mean 'nationalists' when you say 'the natives', if you think there are absolutely no cultural differences among communities in Northern Ireland or across the island, then you're daft. And there sure are political differences - the words 'unionist' and 'nationalist' should be a clue...
Quote
Clinging to and emphasising that difference,
Seriously, you really think it's only unionists who do this? Nationalists never talk about 'the nationalist community', or 'the Catholic community', for example? Or indeed point out how much more sectarian themmuns are...?
Quoteeven though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church
You think most unionists have never been in a church? Really? Where do you get that from?
Quote
Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.
This is another one that seems to have been invented solely based on something concocted in your head. And again, I'm going to have to break it down into several parts, so rich it is for demolition:
1 - You quite regularly hear 'them' on the radio referring to republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists.
2 - You also regularly hear nationalists on the radio talking about Catholics and Protestants. (Indeed there have been planty of cases when the religious label has been inappropriately used by nationalist/republican politicians, e.g. the Shinners claiming that the UUP back in the day wanting a start to IRA decomissioning before Sinn Féin entered the Executive was simply them 'not wanting Catholics in government'.)
3 - Do you seriously believe the rest of the island of Ireland apart from unionists left religious labels back in the 18th century? Have you absolutely no knowledge of Irish history or politics.
4 - Using the label 'Blueshirts' while referring to leaving the 'nonsense' of religious labels back in the past is more than a little ironic. There are Protestants and Catholics in Ireland today. There haven't been Blueshirts for 70 years.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on April 13, 2008, 05:46:43 PM
Well put points MW.
Would you agree with Sammy's statement that people who vote Sinn Fein are Bigots?
Don't worry I was getting to that! No, I woudn't agree with that. I know honourable non-sectarian people who vote for SF. I detest the fact that the party supported a campaign of mass murder (and indeed many among it's leadership participated in said campaign) during the Troubles, and still celebrates some of the perpetrators, but I don't believe that voting for SF means that someone is a bigot.
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 05:36:20 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 10, 2008, 01:44:31 PM
I'm sure this wont go down well with some posters, and I know theres people like this on both sides before ye piss yer cacks, but it seems to me that the levels of sectarian violence and downright bigotry seems to be much higher from the unionist community these days.
Of course I dont have facts of figures to back this up (before Sammy asks), its just a general observation.
Maybe its just me.
Hmm. I have to say, and I know I'm only dealing with part of your point here, my experience on here and on Slugger from reading and indeed receiving the comments of a fair few (a minority, obviously) posters is that there's plenty of this sort of attitude:
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Of course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism. There is no such thing as unionist ideology and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity, the only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion. Clinging to and emphasising that difference, even though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church, gives them an identity. Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.
Sectarian attitudes are often rooted in stereotypes and preconceptions. Those of sectarian Protestants towards Catholics (note to Donagh, I'm using the 'religious' label here in an effort to avoid a debate with anyone who might challenge the meaning of the term 'sectarianism') no doubt involve certain stereotypes. It seems to me that anti-Protestant (or anti-unionist, if you prefer) sectarianism is also based on certain sterotypes - leading among them is the idea that the Prods are evil supremacist bigots.
A few eclectic (and I'll accept, completely anecdotal unless you've seen or remember the threads in question) - I said on one thread in here about favourite comedies that I disliked Only Fools and Horses and especially the Del Boy character - I was met with a comment that this wasn't surprising, and an allusion agreed to by another poster that I was some sort of dour humourless DUP supporter. To give another example, if I or any other 'unionist' poster debate NI history/politics with lynchbhoy, for example, we'll be met with the accusation that we're trotting out the 'oo/dup/loyalist' line that has been drilled into us all. Another example was a recent thread on Slugger on the meanings of Britishness and Irishness, one poster was questioning the meaning of Britishness in a none-too-subtle attempt to say 'you unionists don't really have an identity' - when she was told that going to Venice and asking the natives about their Italianness mightn't produce a form of answer like she wanted, she then made a comment along the lines that this reference to 'the natives' was racist and that this showed the underlying thoughts of unionists. In this way it's a bit like that "mask slipping" comments that are seen now and again on here in relation to myself and other posters.
In fairness, MW you didnt need to go into such depth to show that a) not all Unionists are bigoted, and b) there are people as bad on the other side, as I have already clarified that I also beleive this.
My point was that there seems to be more incidents involving sectarianism catching peoples attention coming from the Unionist community than from the Nationalist community. Thats all, I'm not saying its all from one side, as it clearly isnt, but more from one that the other.
Regarding you comments about the treatment you get on here, I would agree you get some stick. But given the huge amount of posters here, its a small minority who do this, and many others defend you occasionally when someone goes over the top.
On the contrary, given the much smaller numbers on OWC, the reaction I got during my stay (and no matter what may be suggested, I was polite at all times until my final post) over there was quite alarming. It was like I was waving a red "GAA" flag at a crowd of angry bulls. And not one of the decent posters over there spoke up against some of the abuse.
So the fact that there is sectarianism on both sides is irrelevant, as this is an undeniable fact.
Mine was just a personal observation, then again, maybe the media are deliberately trying to make the Unionist community look worse. The media can be very powerful and this is easily done.
Or maybe not, and my observation is true, its impossible to prove either way.
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Of course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism.
That's extremely inaccurate. Some strands of unionism have been and are. To speak personally, my own unionism is based on support for the Union, the fact that I identify with the British state and people(s), and the fact that Northern Ireland is my country and Britishness is my nationality.
Well it's can't be
extremely inaccurate if you admit in the next line that "Some strands of unionism have been and are" (based on sectarianism).
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
There is no such thing as unionist ideology
Wrong. Try reading for example Paul Bew's 'Ideology and the Irish Question'.
No thanks, perhaps you would like to outline his main points?
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity,
Two points here. One - who does? If you pick out one strand of modern British identity, inevitably it won't 'fit in' with the rest. And two, multiculturalism (note before anyone tries - this is not associated with multiracialism) is a creed seems to have now been rejected by the establishment and indeed is identified with some of the major problems facing British society.
Quotethe only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion.
As ever one little phrase of yours provides a goldmine for challenging.
Firstly, there's that phrase 'the natives' again. (Look at what I said above, folks). An unsubtle effort to paint unionists as supremacist racial bigots, perhaps paint them in the light of a 20th-century white settler in Africa looking down on the Africans? Or do you not see unionists as 'native' to this place, even through they have roots here going back centuries?
Assuming you mean 'nationalists' when you say 'the natives', if you think there are absolutely no cultural differences among communities in Northern Ireland or across the island, then you're daft. And there sure are political differences - the words 'unionist' and 'nationalist' should be a clue...
Okay I can see how that might have been misinterpreted, lets say that in lieu of some sort of unionist ideology I've never heard any unionist politician advocate (but I'll wait on your summary of Bew) the only way a Martian could separate a unionist from the natives is the Church they purport to go to on a Sunday.
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Clinging to and emphasising that difference,
Seriously, you really think it's only unionists who do this? Nationalists never talk about 'the nationalist community', or 'the Catholic community', for example? Or indeed point out how much more sectarian themmuns are...?
We're discussing the sectarianism that emanates from the unionist part of the community here. I don't think I ever said that sectarianism doesn't exists within nationalism.
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Quoteeven though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church
You think most unionists have never been in a church? Really? Where do you get that from?
Okay, let's say rarely ever darken the door of a church. I haven't checked it but I'm sure the Life and Times Survey will back that one up.
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.
This is another one that seems to have been invented solely based on something concocted in your head. And again, I'm going to have to break it down into several parts, so rich it is for demolition:
1 - You quite regularly hear 'them' on the radio referring to republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists.
2 - You also regularly hear nationalists on the radio talking about Catholics and Protestants. (Indeed there have been planty of cases when the religious label has been inappropriately used by nationalist/republican politicians, e.g. the Shinners claiming that the UUP back in the day wanting a start to IRA decomissioning before Sinn Féin entered the Executive was simply them 'not wanting Catholics in government'.)
3 - Do you seriously believe the rest of the island of Ireland apart from unionists left religious labels back in the 18th century? Have you absolutely no knowledge of Irish history or politics.
4 - Using the label 'Blueshirts' while referring to leaving the 'nonsense' of religious labels back in the past is more than a little ironic. There are Protestants and Catholics in Ireland today. There haven't been Blueshirts for 70 years.
MW, by using the Sammy style of response of breaking every line down into constituent parts you have (as Sammy often does) spectacularly missed the point in a 'can't see the wood for the trees kind of way'. Is that deliberate? I have said that the sectarianism is more prevalent in the unionist section of the community because religion makes up a much greater part of their identity than it does for nationalists and/or republicans. Do you refute that, if so why? And can we not do the Sammy style, and just discuss the thing like grown ups, if nothing else it's a pain in the hole to respond to that approach.
Quote from: Donagh on April 14, 2008, 02:54:16 PMI have said that the sectarianism is more prevalent in the unionist section of the community because religion makes up a much greater part of their identity than it does for nationalists and/or republicans.
You never said anything of the sort and if you had said it, it would be very easy to refute as it's clearly nonsense. You state (correctly in my view) that most Unionists aren't regular church goers, and then in the same post argue that relegion makes up a great part of their identity. ::)
Quote from: SammyG on April 14, 2008, 03:01:31 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 14, 2008, 02:54:16 PMI have said that the sectarianism is more prevalent in the unionist section of the community because religion makes up a much greater part of their identity than it does for nationalists and/or republicans.
You never said anything of the sort and if you had said it, it would be very easy to refute as it's clearly nonsense. You state (correctly in my view) that most Unionists aren't regular church goers, and then in the same post argue that relegion makes up a great part of their identity. ::)
You're at it again Sammy ::). My reply was in the context of the question posed and should be read as such. As for unionists going to Church, not that I really care as it was a side point, but I'm sure the Life and Times survey would say they don't.
Quote from: Donagh on April 14, 2008, 03:12:51 PMYou're at it again Sammy ::).
If by it, you mean pointig out that you are not just talking shite but actually contradicting yourself, then yes, I'm at it.
Quote from: Donagh on April 14, 2008, 03:12:51 PMAs for unionists going to Church, not that I really care as it was a side point, but I'm sure the Life and Times survey would say they don't.
I've already agreed with you on that point, and pointed out that it completely contradicts your previous point.
Quote from: Donagh on April 14, 2008, 02:54:16 PM
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Of course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism.
That's extremely inaccurate. Some strands of unionism have been and are. To speak personally, my own unionism is based on support for the Union, the fact that I identify with the British state and people(s), and the fact that Northern Ireland is my country and Britishness is my nationality.
Well it's can't be extremely inaccurate if you admit in the next line that "Some strands of unionism have been and are" (based on sectarianism).
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
There is no such thing as unionist ideology
Wrong. Try reading for example Paul Bew's 'Ideology and the Irish Question'.
No thanks, perhaps you would like to outline his main points?
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity,
Two points here. One - who does? If you pick out one strand of modern British identity, inevitably it won't 'fit in' with the rest. And two, multiculturalism (note before anyone tries - this is not associated with multiracialism) is a creed seems to have now been rejected by the establishment and indeed is identified with some of the major problems facing British society.
Quotethe only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion.
As ever one little phrase of yours provides a goldmine for challenging.
Firstly, there's that phrase 'the natives' again. (Look at what I said above, folks). An unsubtle effort to paint unionists as supremacist racial bigots, perhaps paint them in the light of a 20th-century white settler in Africa looking down on the Africans? Or do you not see unionists as 'native' to this place, even through they have roots here going back centuries?
Assuming you mean 'nationalists' when you say 'the natives', if you think there are absolutely no cultural differences among communities in Northern Ireland or across the island, then you're daft. And there sure are political differences - the words 'unionist' and 'nationalist' should be a clue...
Okay I can see how that might have been misinterpreted, lets say that in lieu of some sort of unionist ideology I've never heard any unionist politician advocate (but I'll wait on your summary of Bew) the only way a Martian could separate a unionist from the natives is the Church they purport to go to on a Sunday.
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Clinging to and emphasising that difference,
Seriously, you really think it's only unionists who do this? Nationalists never talk about 'the nationalist community', or 'the Catholic community', for example? Or indeed point out how much more sectarian themmuns are...?
We're discussing the sectarianism that emanates from the unionist part of the community here. I don't think I ever said that sectarianism doesn't exists within nationalism.
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Quoteeven though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church
You think most unionists have never been in a church? Really? Where do you get that from?
Okay, let's say rarely ever darken the door of a church. I haven't checked it but I'm sure the Life and Times Survey will back that one up.
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.
This is another one that seems to have been invented solely based on something concocted in your head. And again, I'm going to have to break it down into several parts, so rich it is for demolition:
1 - You quite regularly hear 'them' on the radio referring to republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists.
2 - You also regularly hear nationalists on the radio talking about Catholics and Protestants. (Indeed there have been planty of cases when the religious label has been inappropriately used by nationalist/republican politicians, e.g. the Shinners claiming that the UUP back in the day wanting a start to IRA decomissioning before Sinn Féin entered the Executive was simply them 'not wanting Catholics in government'.)
3 - Do you seriously believe the rest of the island of Ireland apart from unionists left religious labels back in the 18th century? Have you absolutely no knowledge of Irish history or politics.
4 - Using the label 'Blueshirts' while referring to leaving the 'nonsense' of religious labels back in the past is more than a little ironic. There are Protestants and Catholics in Ireland today. There haven't been Blueshirts for 70 years.
MW, by using the Sammy style of response of breaking every line down into constituent parts you have (as Sammy often does) spectacularly missed the point in a 'can't see the wood for the trees kind of way'. Is that deliberate? I have said that the sectarianism is more prevalent in the unionist section of the community because religion makes up a much greater part of their identity than it does for nationalists and/or republicans. Do you refute that, if so why? And can we not do the Sammy style, and just discuss the thing like grown ups, if nothing else it's a pain in the hole to respond to that approach.
OK, I'll go for a 'holistic' reply if you want.
Your argument now seems to be that "sectarianism is more prevalent in the unionist section of the community because religion makes up a much greater part of their identity than it does for nationalists and/or republicans."
So I'll assume that you've now backed off daft hyperbolic claims such as "unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism" and "when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century". So we'll leave them be with the advice from me that you should advise over-egging your posts so much that it's difficult to see the pudding.
In my experience there is little difference between how unionists and nationalists use the 'religious' labels. Both will talk of Protestant and Catholics. Again in my experience, Protestants and Catholics (political and apolitical alike) are both aware of the part 'religion' plays in their self-identification. Indeed as you say religiosity may well be higher among Catholics. And another point is that Catholics are much more likely to attend faith schools - nothing wrong with the existence of faith schools of course (I'm agnostic and sceptical about the influence of religion at times but fairly libertarian and do think a 'religious' education can provide a decent moral grounding for a youngster) but this provides a strong part of someone's formation of identity.
As for how a Martian landing here would tell unionists apart from 'the natives'* (by which I'm going to assume you mean 'nationalists') - a starting point would be support for or opposition to the Union. Another might be choice of nationality - British or Irish, or indeed both. Ironically enough given your argument,
you seem to want to pick out religion as the 'only' difference.
By the way, simply saying 'there's no such thing as unionist ideology' doesn't cut the mustard. And neither am I going to sum up 'Ideogoly and the Irish Question' for you. I'd advise you to read it, and other books such as 'The Uncivil Wars: Ireland Today' (Padraig O'Malley). It helps if you're making your pronouncements from something of an informed standpoint. There various types of unionist ideology you're dismissing with just a wave of the hand. I could just as easily say 'there's no such thing as Irish nationalist ideology' but what meaning would that have?
*I'm going to ask you to quit using that term. I find it offensive - I'm just as 'native' as you are. I was born and brought up here, and my family's roots here go back centuries. You're either using it in a 'racist' way or in some sort of twisted attempt to insert a term that unionists don't use to promote the implication that people like me are akin to a white settler in 18th/20th century Africa and actually do think about 'natives'. We don't.
If I may comment on your own deabting style, this little vignette is a demonstration of why it's difficult to deabte with you:
Quote from: Donagh on April 10, 2008, 02:22:21 PM
the only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion. Clinging to and emphasising that difference, even though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church, gives them an identity. Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.
Quote from: MW on April 13, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Seriously, you really think it's only unionists who do this? Nationalists never talk about 'the nationalist community', or 'the Catholic community', for example? Or indeed point out how much more sectarian themmuns are...?
Quote
We're discussing the sectarianism that emanates from the unionist part of the community here. I don't think I ever said that sectarianism doesn't exists within nationalism.
You claim unionists, unlike 'the natives' and 'the rest of us', cling to relgious identity and the difference it provides. I point out that, contrary to your claim that they do not, actually nationalists also use religious and communitarian labels, the same ones that show that very difference. You then say we're discussing unionists.
Goalposts moving, much? You brought non-unionists into it to claim a contrast - when you found this claim being contradicated, you pull non-unionists out of it and say "we're" discussing unionists.
You need to make your mind up on there things otherwise we'll only end up debating at cross-purposes.
Somebody has fallen out with their handler...
Leading loyalist charged with raping 13-year-old girl
Thursday, 29 October 2009
Mark Harbinson, his head covered by his jacket, is escorted from the court by two police officers
Mark Harbinson, his head covered by his jacket, is escorted from the court by two police officers
Prominent loyalist Mark Harbinson has been remanded in custody after being charged with the rape of a 13-year-old girl.
Harbinson (42), from Sheepwalk Road in Stoneyford, faces five charges involving the young girl including possessing indecent photographs of children and sexual touching of a person under 16.
Appearing at Lisburn Magistrates Court yesterday, the court heard Harbinson's home was searched by police on October 23 and mobile phones were seized.
Harbinson was later arrested on October 26 in his vehicle. The young girl was also in the vehicle.
The court heard that eight mobiles were seized altogether during the two incidents.
After examination by police two indecent images were discovered on the mobile phones, the court was told.
During yesterday's hearing an investigating officer said he could connect Harbinson to the charges.
During interviews Harbinson had told police the reason he was with the girl was that he had become "paranoid" following police intervention and that he wanted to speak to the girl to tell her to get a new phone.
It is understood the defendant met the girl at Stoneyford Orange hall through his involvement with a band.
The officer said the investigation was "at a very early stage" but objected to an application for bail due to a number of concerns.
He told District Judge Rosie Watters this included a fear the defendant would attempt to contact the victim or abscond.
A defence solicitor told the court his client "vehemently" denied all the charges, adding that a number of conditions could be set, including a ban on the use of mobile phones, to allow bail.
Judge Watters, however, said that would be "impossible to police". Defence counsel also said he provided the main source of income for his wife and six-month-old son.
An application for bail, however, was denied with Judge Watters describing the charges as "very serious".
Harbinson was remanded in custody to reappear via videolink on the November 24.
Maybe thats the reason Gregory Campbell wants the death penalty brought back.
QuoteI find it offensive - I'm just as 'native' as you are. I was born and brought up here, and my family's roots here go back centuries.
Nationalists generally would not dispute your right to be thought of a native. But the planter community continue to refer to themselves as British, centuries after they arrived, identifying
themselves as not being normal Irish residents. They eschew normal Irish activities, such as the GAA, on the basis that these are Irish. If you identify with another place rather than the place you live in then you cannot be said to have strong roots here.
Quote from: armaghniac on October 29, 2009, 12:13:35 PM
QuoteI find it offensive - I'm just as 'native' as you are. I was born and brought up here, and my family's roots here go back centuries.
Nationalists generally would not dispute your right to be thought of a native. But the planter community continue to refer to themselves as British, centuries after they arrived, identifying themselves as not being normal Irish residents. They eschew normal Irish activities, such as the GAA, on the basis that these are Irish. If you identify with another place rather than the place you live in then you cannot be said to have strong roots here.
Like a lot of Irish Americans?
QuoteLike a lot of Irish Americans?
Irish-Americans of several generations are in no doubt that they are Americans, they don't avoid American sports, burn US flags on bonfires etc. On the contrary they are proud to be US citizens, wherever their heritage.
Stoneyford Co.Kilkenny is a nice village maybe they should all move there