What are the tax implications for a gaa player in the north who receives a grant from what is perceived by the inland revenue as a foreign government?
I would have thought that the fact it comes from a foreign government is irrelevant.
I would say that it would be taxable, as there are no eligible expenses to offset it. However, I know that one poster here (as i try to remember his handle) believes that for one reason or another, HMRC have been turing a blind eye in relation to GAA clubs and matters of taxation in recent years.
Whether this might be the straw that breaks the camel's back I don't know, or perhaps the GAA have received carte blanche from a higher authority, well who knows.
Officially, I think it would be taxable.
If I was a player I would be wary of this. If they did get an audit becuase of the grant receipt (everyone will know who receives them) who knows what other cash receipts they may find that the player hasn't been disclosing over the years. Oisin McConville even states in his book that he used the money he received for making appearances at awards nights to pay for his gambling obsession.
The players could find themselves on a very slippery slope.
Joe, I checked with a resident PAYE expert in our place who agreed that HMRC were basically ignoring it, but in my view now that it is public money, it will have to be fully traceable and the recipient fully accountable.
Certain players are definately wary of further investigation into their affairs.
mac Eoghain - that was the handle I was after. All I could think fo was your feckin real name ::)
Now this imho could make for a more interesting debate within the gpa especially in the north. There are stories and innuendo and all the rest about cash being handed over to players for any auld excuse. Now that hmrc will be very aware of the 150 odd (allowing for wee 6 players resident in mexico) who are paying tax in the north receiving a taxable income from a foreign country, will the players want their affairs put in the spotlight?
Surely the scrutiny would end up (allegedly) actually putting them out of pocket.
Caveat, I'm not on record as stating that there are many county players who receive large cash incentives to play for their county, nor those who asked for large cash considerations to continue to play rather than retire. I am also not stating that there are county players receiving freebies (benefit in kind mr tax man) from their employers because of the attention being drawn to the company. I am also not stating that county players are driving round in company cars of companies the don't work for (undeclared income mr taxman). I am also not asking for the source of deposits on houses that have been acquired by county players as I'm sure they were all from the players well thought out and legal savings plans. I would also like to point out that at no stage did I even hint at former county players offering to come back for another year if a very lucrative financial package was put in place for the year. Those type of allegations would previously have been absolutely unprovable, and I would distance myself from them completely. However it would just take one hmrc audit to make for a very uncomfortable position for any player who may have been involved in anything that I am not stating that they did.
Looks like the managers may have a pass as there would be no public verification of payment, maybe that's why there's no GMA, the auld fella's are a bit cuter...
Quote from: heganboy on December 11, 2007, 05:19:32 PM
Now this imho could make for a more interesting debate within the gpa especially in the north. There are stories and innuendo and all the rest about cash being handed over to players for any auld excuse. Now that hmrc will be very aware of the 150 odd (allowing for wee 6 players resident in mexico) who are paying tax in the north receiving a taxable income from a foreign country, will the players want their affairs put in the spotlight?
Surely the scrutiny would end up (allegedly) actually putting them out of pocket.
Caveat, I'm not on record as stating that there are many county players who receive large cash incentives to play for their county, nor those who asked for large cash considerations to continue to play rather than retire. I am also not stating that there are county players receiving freebies (benefit in kind mr tax man) from their employers because of the attention being drawn to the company. I am also not stating that county players are driving round in company cars of companies the don't work for (undeclared income mr taxman). I am also not asking for the source of deposits on houses that have been acquired by county players as I'm sure they were all from the players well thought out and legal savings plans. I would also like to point out that at no stage did I even hint at former county players offering to come back for another year if a very lucrative financial package was put in place for the year. Those type of allegations would previously have been absolutely unprovable, and I would distance myself from them completely. However it would just take one hmrc audit to make for a very uncomfortable position for any player who may have been involved in anything that I am not stating that they did.
Looks like the managers may have a pass as there would be no public verification of payment, maybe that's why there's no GMA, the auld fella's are a bit cuter...
:D :D :D :D :D Good post and an interesting thread Hegan, maybe all the same it would be better if the current shams were all out in the open, maybe the GPA's aims are to ensure that the Mayo hurlers (with the exception of Keith Higgins obviously) get access to that sponsored car, or maybe they've just really fcuked up many's a lucrative backhander.
Maybe dessie could ask big Ian for a grant from the assembly. I'd pay to watch that conversation...
QuoteI am also not stating that county players are driving round in company cars of companies the don't work for (undeclared income mr taxman). I am also not asking for the source of deposits on houses that have been acquired by county players as I'm sure they were all from the players well thought out and legal savings plans. I would also like to point out that at no stage did I even hint at former county players offering to come back for another year if a very lucrative financial package was put in place for the year. Those type of allegations would previously have been absolutely unprovable, and I would distance myself from them completely. However it would just take one hmrc audit to make for a very uncomfortable position for any player who may have been involved in anything that I am not stating that they did.
Armagh players wouldn't be at this sort of craic, any unusual income is from honest smuggling.
All they have to say is that their marriage was going through a bad patch and they moved into a rented house and the money was given to them by their friends in the GAA after a whip 'round as a "dig out". Works down here anyway, and if the Euro is not good enough for ye Alaskans it works in dollars too. ;)
it actually beggars belief that some bitter DUP pr*ck working for the Inland Revenue hasnt began an investigation into GAA individuals.
Lord God Kiddo - you really don't like Dom !!!!! That post is way way below the belt in my opinion. No need for that at all. >:( ??? >:(
I have been thinking about this.
It is absolutely inevitable that someone in the province will specifically ring up HMRC and ask them if they are ensuring that the GAA players are declaring their grant income. I think to suggest otherwise is a real case of putting their heads in the sand.
I would hope that Dessie is spending a few quid of the GPA's membership fees getting his Northern members a bit of tax advice.
What happens if the grant is taxable in the North, but not the South? Would Geezer be content with the fact that the Nordies are taking home less pay, sorry grant, and so he would want the rate increased?
This could well be a hornet's nest, and like Hegamboy I'm surprised that there hasn't been a decent discussion on this matter, never mind the fact that I haven't heard it mentioned in the press.
It was mentioned here:
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/grants-scheme--may-be-taxable-1241222.html?r=RSS
Quote
Saturday December 08 2007
THE country's top GAA stars could face a tax bill under the new grants scheme.
The €3.5m deal will fund an Annual Team Performance Scheme and an Annual Support Scheme for inter-county players. But the €1,400-€2,500 that players are likely to receive could be classed as income and subject to tax. The Revenue Commissioners, has said that "in general terms," grants issued to athletes were taxable.
But for some reason the GPA themselves haven't mentioned it. I also pointed out that in the initial statement by the GPA/Gov back 2/3 weeks ago now, it specificially stated that players would have to take care of the tax implications themselves. For any player in the south earning more than approx 35K, he'll get 53% of the total of the grant, but as some GPA members would say "it's a start".
Quote from: heganboy on December 11, 2007, 12:30:30 AM
What are the tax implications for a gaa player in the north who receives a grant from what is perceived by the inland revenue as a foreign government?
i work in the roi but i'm pretty sure the same applies in ni, for income tax purposes domicile and residency are the biggies for an individual with 'foreign' income. basically anyone in the north will be taxed on their worldwide income by the uk tax authorities and if the source of that income is from a country with a double taxation agreement (roi/uk have one) any tax paid at source can be reclaimed.
the thing is a non issue tho because the amount of money involved is so small. anyone in the north who receives the grant can claim expenses against it. just keep a record of your milage etc and make sure it adds up to your grant or more! any expenses already been paid by the gaa are not going to cover your expenses - in roi gaa pay (i think) 50c a mile - civil servants can claim 1.25 a mile so factor those exp in as well
Quote from: magickingdom on December 13, 2007, 09:10:29 PM
Quote from: heganboy on December 11, 2007, 12:30:30 AM
What are the tax implications for a gaa player in the north who receives a grant from what is perceived by the inland revenue as a foreign government?
i work in the roi but i'm pretty sure the same applies in ni, for income tax purposes domicile and residency are the biggies for an individual with 'foreign' income. basically anyone in the north will be taxed on their worldwide income by the uk tax authorities and if the source of that income is from a country with a double taxation agreement (roi/uk have one) any tax paid at source can be reclaimed.
the think is a non issue tho because the amount of money involved is so small. anyone in the north who receives the grant can claim expenses against it. just keep a record of your milage etc and make sure it adds up to your grant or more! any expenses already been paid by the gaa are not going to cover your expenses - in roi gaa pay (i think) 50c a mile - civil servants can claim 1.25 a mile so factor those exp in as well
Some may be able to deduct some expenses, the majority I doubt, remember it must be unrecompensed expenses and the expenses must be wholly and exclusively towards whatever they do that justifies the grant - in other words, gym membership, hydration drinks and all that stuff wouldn't be deductible as people need liquids to live, they choose gym memberships to improve health and so on. As Rois pointed out on another thread, the income of many players could be affected were the revenue to take a look at the situation. In my opinion, this move by the GPA could result in the opening of a whole can of worms for players - but then, imo that would be typical of the GPA on this matter, they've not really thought the whole thing through properly. They should have insisted the wording was changed in some way so as to ensure this wouldn't ever be an issue.
We may end up with a situation where the govt, give the players 3.5M but take in an additional 10M in taxes.
Bogball - Gym memberships/hydration drinks etc can be allowed depending on the circumstances as to why they are being used....as easily proved the return of 50c per mile is not a realistic reimbursement for expenses so any costs over the 50 cents will be allowable....
For example "sex workers" are entitled to claim for lotion, condoms, lubrication as being a valid expense with regards to their income.....
Any accountant who can't prove that a GAA player has expenses to cover the grant isn't much of an accountant...
I don't agree at all DFS, but hopefully it won't be tested. There are all sorts of test cases about that sort of thing, and they all lose.
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 13, 2007, 11:17:32 PM
Bogball - Gym memberships/hydration drinks etc can be allowed depending on the circumstances as to why they are being used....as easily proved the return of 50c per mile is not a realistic reimbursement for expenses so any costs over the 50 cents will be allowable....
For example "sex workers" are entitled to claim for lotion, condoms, lubrication as being a valid expense with regards to their income.....
Any accountant who can't prove that a GAA player has expenses to cover the grant isn't much of an accountant...
DFS, I wouldn't think there are too many intercounty players paying their own gym membership, at least not up here in the North already. And although I am no longer in practice I think that the maxmium mileage allowance for tax purposes in the North is only 40p per mile. I would assume that most intercounty players would be getting virtually that rate.
That's the thing about this "grants", there will be very little actual expenditure to be put against them, as they are really just a form of income (with a different title. The expenditure that they may be out of pockets are already being met by the county boards (in the majority of counties).
TYP, yes if they do turn out to be taxable then HMRC will be gaining at th expense of the Irish taxpayer.
Quote from: Bogball XV on December 13, 2007, 11:10:50 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on December 13, 2007, 09:10:29 PM
Quote from: heganboy on December 11, 2007, 12:30:30 AM
What are the tax implications for a gaa player in the north who receives a grant from what is perceived by the inland revenue as a foreign government?
i work in the roi but i'm pretty sure the same applies in ni, for income tax purposes domicile and residency are the biggies for an individual with 'foreign' income. basically anyone in the north will be taxed on their worldwide income by the uk tax authorities and if the source of that income is from a country with a double taxation agreement (roi/uk have one) any tax paid at source can be reclaimed.
the think is a non issue tho because the amount of money involved is so small. anyone in the north who receives the grant can claim expenses against it. just keep a record of your milage etc and make sure it adds up to your grant or more! any expenses already been paid by the gaa are not going to cover your expenses - in roi gaa pay (i think) 50c a mile - civil servants can claim 1.25 a mile so factor those exp in as well
Some may be able to deduct some expenses, the majority I doubt, remember it must be unrecompensed expenses and the expenses must be wholly and exclusively towards whatever they do that justifies the grant - in other words, gym membership, hydration drinks and all that stuff wouldn't be deductible as people need liquids to live, they choose gym memberships to improve health and so on. As Rois pointed out on another thread, the income of many players could be affected were the revenue to take a look at the situation. In my opinion, this move by the GPA could result in the opening of a whole can of worms for players - but then, imo that would be typical of the GPA on this matter, they've not really thought the whole thing through properly. They should have insisted the wording was changed in some way so as to ensure this wouldn't ever be an issue.
We may end up with a situation where the govt, give the players 3.5M but take in an additional 10M in taxes.
i'm sure all those exp would be allowed, also any boots/football gear paid for. it wont be hard to make up the expenses. personally i think the whole thing is bolix for the amount of money the players are going to get..
Quote from: magickingdom on December 14, 2007, 09:38:06 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on December 13, 2007, 11:10:50 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on December 13, 2007, 09:10:29 PM
Quote from: heganboy on December 11, 2007, 12:30:30 AM
What are the tax implications for a gaa player in the north who receives a grant from what is perceived by the inland revenue as a foreign government?
i work in the roi but i'm pretty sure the same applies in ni, for income tax purposes domicile and residency are the biggies for an individual with 'foreign' income. basically anyone in the north will be taxed on their worldwide income by the uk tax authorities and if the source of that income is from a country with a double taxation agreement (roi/uk have one) any tax paid at source can be reclaimed.
the think is a non issue tho because the amount of money involved is so small. anyone in the north who receives the grant can claim expenses against it. just keep a record of your milage etc and make sure it adds up to your grant or more! any expenses already been paid by the gaa are not going to cover your expenses - in roi gaa pay (i think) 50c a mile - civil servants can claim 1.25 a mile so factor those exp in as well
Some may be able to deduct some expenses, the majority I doubt, remember it must be unrecompensed expenses and the expenses must be wholly and exclusively towards whatever they do that justifies the grant - in other words, gym membership, hydration drinks and all that stuff wouldn't be deductible as people need liquids to live, they choose gym memberships to improve health and so on. As Rois pointed out on another thread, the income of many players could be affected were the revenue to take a look at the situation. In my opinion, this move by the GPA could result in the opening of a whole can of worms for players - but then, imo that would be typical of the GPA on this matter, they've not really thought the whole thing through properly. They should have insisted the wording was changed in some way so as to ensure this wouldn't ever be an issue.
We may end up with a situation where the govt, give the players 3.5M but take in an additional 10M in taxes.
i'm sure all those exp would be allowed, also any boots/football gear paid fot. it wont be hard to make up the expenses. personally i think the whole thing is bolix for the amount of money the players are going to get..
The point is magickingdom, they don't actually have to put their hands in their pocket for these things. They can hardly claim deductions for something the county board pays for.
i know what your saying bogball but milage exp for training is a simple solution. the gaa are only paying 50c in the roi that wouldnt run a bike. make up the milage to whatever figure suits (its going on wholesale!) deduct the gaa 50c and charge the rest against your grant of say £2000. if someone is training 2 or 3 times a week its very feasable to do this. the revenue wont be bothered with the amount of money involved, having said that if the gaa could neg with both gov to see if the payments could tax fee it would be preferrable but that unlikely..