Congress today adopted the proposed changes to the hurling championship, can't see it making much of a difference TBH.
What are the changes ?
How can you make Galway and Antrim play off each year ? That's ridiculous - no incentive there for Antrim.
Basically Gal play Antrim every year, loser plays loser of Mun 1st rd game winner plays loser of Leinster 1st rd game. Also round robin has been removed in favour of straight knock out. Until they get rid of the Mun championship the system will never be acceptable.
it's really, really shite - where do they come up with this crap from? Why not make the winners of Ulster play in the Leinster and make Galway play there too - or more realistically get rid of the provincial system altogether - but seriously, this new system is total shite.
The new format is complete and utter nonsense! Smacks of the GAA being seen to do something when really they are doing nothing! Antrim and Galway should have been incuded in a rest of Ireland championship with Leinster. Plus per my reading what happens to one Leinster team?
Leinster have 6 teams, 1 will be a first round loser playing Galway, 2 will be semi final losers going into phase 3 - that's 3 teams! am I missing something?
The idea of Galway playing Antrim in the 1st Round every year is a complete nonsense and proves to me that this "new format" will not last very long, probably just 1 year. That is a good point about the 6 teams in the Leinster Championship. Westmeath are playing in the Leinster Championship, but they are not playing in the Liam McCarthy Cup, therefore they will not be in the draw with Antrim and Galway if they lose their Quarter Final game in Leinster. What will happen if they win their Quarter Final match and reach the Semi Final is another matter and one that was not addressed by the delegates last Saturday. You would then have 2 other losing Quarter Finalists from Leinster for the draw with Antrim, Galway and the losing Munster Quarter Finalists. As I say, this format is a stop gap measure.
Sounds like a bit of a disaster this new format and somewhat unfair.
Quote from: orangeman on September 30, 2007, 10:37:15 PM
How can you make Galway and Antrim play off each year ? That's ridiculous - no incentive there for Antrim.
dont worry, i have a feeling this will be for oe year only and we'll change again ... ???
As i said b4
..........Provincial winners gained no advantage over Provincal losers as to progression in AI competition.
..........The Semple gate affair, handled terribly. Amateur players deserve better.
..........Cork could have won an AI having lost two games.
..........Kilkenny have not played a Munster team.
.........Waterford played 5 championship games this year yet only met two teams.
.........No one outside of the Big 8 made the breakthrough.
.........Limerick are in the final having played no one outside of Munster.
.........Wexford got to a semi-final and distorted their standing.
.........League games proved to be a mess with Laois, Dublin, Antrim and Offaly getting hidings.
........The doubling up of replays of quarterfinals with Semifinals to get 45 euro for tickets where often the other game was the other code.
Kilkenny and Cork win AIs. We have 4/6 others who can pretend. And we have 24 others who are just so far off of the mark it is not funny. The Ring and Rickard Cups have tried to address the problem in weaker counties but this has been nearly impossible to grade and the finals just end up one sided. Yes we got some good games but, there seemed to be a case of rearranging the deck chairs to the Championship. You lose here you go into a league Basis, it just seems to be about giving you chances and chances to qualify for the quarters. then again when you have a championship with 8 teams i suppose you have to do that. So much for it being called an "ALL" Ireland title.
Provincial champioship is holding back a successful format. If GAA is so caught up with Provincial format, why is there not provincial Ring/Rickard titles? (Would be a handy Munster Hurling title for Kerry!)
Quote from: From the Bunker on October 01, 2007, 11:10:32 PM
Kilkenny and Cork win AIs. We have 4/6 others who can pretend. And we have 24 others who are just so far off of the mark it is not funny. The Ring and Rickard Cups have tried to address the problem in weaker counties but this has been nearly impossible to grade and the finals just end up one sided. Yes we got some good games but, there seemed to be a case of rearranging the deck chairs to the Championship. You lose here you go into a league Basis, it just seems to be about giving you chances and chances to qualify for the quarters. then again when you have a championship with 8 teams i suppose you have to do that. So much for it being called an "ALL" Ireland title.
No offense from the bunker but god i hate the way people say that about the hurling all the time. Just becasue the top tier are the only ones capable of winning the thing dosent mean the others arent competing for it through promotion and slow and steady development. How many teams have a hope of winning the Rugby World Cup? or the Soccer version for that matter? That dosent mean countires don't compete, even if they haven't a snowballs chance of qualification, never mind winning the thing.
I just don't follow your Ring + Rackard provincial championship argument, are you being funny or trying to make a point?
I used to be for it but i'm starting to think an open draw isnt just going to solve everything and getting rid of Munster is a huge risk. I'd be much more in favor of the combined CUL [connacht-ulster-leinster] championship and retaining the Munster championship. Kilkenny cant maintain their current standard for ever and when they do finally slip a bit and other counties close the gap somewhat then you'd have two very competitive championships.
The problem with the open draw is you lose Munster which, whatever about the quality of some of the teams at the moment is very competitive+entertaining and despite not getting much of an advantage for winning it teams were still giving it everything and the public are flocking to see the games.
aswell as the CUL championship coming from Kilkenny Cats, Someone mentioned the idea that you link final league position to the championship by having the lower placed counties have to play in the preliim rounds of the Munster or Leisnter championships, and have higher placed counties get home advantage for the first round matches. Linking the league to the championship even in a small way might help boost the NHL.
I also read somewhere else someone suggest ditching the play offs from the league, thus freeing up time for ALL counties to have games on those weekends and then allowing for the 9 team NHL. Why have a league that only runs for five weekends and then have a 1/4 final, 1/2 final and final, it's a bit of a joke.
Just when we thought it wasn't possible for the powers that be to make an even greater "balls up" than ever they produce the new hurling championship format, what a joke.
To be honest can't see this lasting any more than a year and think it was more a knee jerk reaction to Cork almost beating Waterford having been beaten twice themselves earlier in the year and then Limerick beating Waterford after losing to them in the Munster Final.
Clearly the old structure had its faults but often the q-finals provided some of the best matches of the year and it was great to have double headers in Croker. With the new structure the winner of the Leinster Championship goes straight to the semi final so Kilkenny once again have a massive advantage over the Munster counties who will have beat the cr*p out of each other by that stage.
You have the prospect of Cork and Waterford meeting in the first round in Munster and the loser of that playing Galway while the losing finalist of the Leinster championship gets through to an All Ireland q final and Kilkenny waltz into the semis - not exactly a fair system but then again Ned Quinn the head of the HDC is a Kilkenny man.
I beleive part of the thinking behind this is to hand such a "raw deal" to the likes of Galway that they jump at the chance to enter Leinster in 2009 and we will then have a Leinster/connaught/Ulster championship and a Munster championship like Tayto says - this is the way forward as I reckon that by 2010 the Dubs if they keep everyone together will be knocking at the door for a Leinster victory and I don't think the potenial lift that will provide for hurling should be lost in the scramble to create an Open Draw.
Quote from: tayto on October 02, 2007, 12:51:16 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on October 01, 2007, 11:10:32 PM
Kilkenny and Cork win AIs. We have 4/6 others who can pretend. And we have 24 others who are just so far off of the mark it is not funny. The Ring and Rickard Cups have tried to address the problem in weaker counties but this has been nearly impossible to grade and the finals just end up one sided. Yes we got some good games but, there seemed to be a case of rearranging the deck chairs to the Championship. You lose here you go into a league Basis, it just seems to be about giving you chances and chances to qualify for the quarters. then again when you have a championship with 8 teams i suppose you have to do that. So much for it being called an "ALL" Ireland title.
No offense from the bunker but god i hate the way people say that about the hurling all the time. Just becasue the top tier are the only ones capable of winning the thing dosent mean the others arent competing for it through promotion and slow and steady development. How many teams have a hope of winning the Rugby World Cup? or the Soccer version for that matter? That dosent mean countires don't compete, even if they haven't a snowballs chance of qualification, never mind winning the thing.
I just don't follow your Ring + Rackard provincial championship argument, are you being funny or trying to make a point?
Not really messing about Ring/Rackard Provincial Championships. The women football do it, and do it successfully, it creates local rivalry and a provincial title to be won. I agree with you on Munster and CUL competitions.
The new proposals will do nothing for Antrim or Galway but they do free up Sundays for club hurling. That's what the committee were asked to do AFAIK as well as removing the chance for a county to lose twice and still win the All Ireland. I agree that this will only last a year. Galway & Antrim will be squealing like stuck pigs this time next year.
Agree, part of me thinks they're trying to piss off Antrim and Galway enough to entice them into a CUL championship in the next year or two. Then again self serving interests in Leinster are against it to! ???
What about the current league, it makes no sense to me to have a league of five games then have a quater final, semi final and a final. Why not let everyone have eight games and be done with the play offs.
The Antrim proposals were far better imo.
There has to be a hidden agenda in having Galway and Antrim playing one another in the 1st Round every year. Fair play certainly does not come in to it. Last year the 8 counties in Division 4 of the National Football League were not allowed play in the qualifiers. That was grossly unfair and now Antrim are told that they will be playing Galway in the 1st Round every year. Martin Breheny has a good article on the treatment given to Antrim in to-day's Indo.
The betrayal of Antrim
Here is the article from the Indo:
(http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00160/antrimHurlers_160419t.jpg)
The Antrim players, pictured here in action during training at Casement Park earlier this year, have now been condemned to being knocked out of the championship by the same team - Galway - every year.
The betrayal of Antrim
By Martin Breheny
Wednesday October 03 2007
LAST Saturday was one of the darkest and starkest days in the history of hurling, dark in that those charged with nurturing the game betrayed one of their own, stark in the brutal manner it extinguished a light across Antrim.
Draw a line from Dublin to Galway and you will find south of which, it appears, nobody gives a damn about Antrim or their likes. That's the only conclusion to be reached from the disgraceful way Antrim are being treated by the latest changes to the championship format.
Antrim are quoted at 1,000/1 to win next year's All-Ireland title but, in reality, it's more like 100,000/1. In fact, Antrim have little chance of ever winning another game in the All-Ireland series under the new system.
Their pleas for fair play were ignored by Special Congress which instead voted to hire the biggest bouncers to ensure that Antrim are ejected from the All-Ireland party with maximum force every year.
Yet while Antrim, who with Laois and Dublin are regarded as the weakest three in the 12-strong race for the Liam McCarthy Cup, face All-Ireland desolation year after year, Kilkenny, the most potent force in the land, have had their passage smoothed.
Horse-racing handicaps the better horses to improve competition; the GAA lifts the load off the strong and lumps it onto the weak.
It is, as Antrim chairman John McSparran has said, an absolute travesty. And if it wasn't bad enough to be handed by far the worst deal of all, Antrim had to listen to patronising guff from other counties about no system being perfect.
From 2008 on, Antrim will play Galway in their first game every year. They will lose that and then play the quarter-final losers in Munster. Year after year, Antrim will be whipped in two games. There will be no provision for a situation where they get a game against one of the weaker sides in Leinster.
Galway will beat Antrim and then take on a losing Leinster quarter-finalists which is a much easier route. Galway opposed the new system too, but they're strong enough to overcome its inequality.
By way of comparison, let's examine the path to the All-Ireland semi-finals facing Antrim, ranked 11th at best, and Kilkenny, the undisputed No1.
Kilkenny can book a semi-final place by winning two games in a lop-sided Leinster championship where their main rivals are Wexford and Offaly, who at 66/1 and 200/1 respectively for the 2008 All-Ireland, are 8th and 9th favourites.
So while Kilkenny book their place in the All-Ireland semi-final with two relatively straight-forward wins, Antrim will start their adventure with a defeat by Galway. They then take on one of five strong Munster teams. Let's assume that they somehow managed to upset the odds and win.
They would then play a beaten semi-finalist from Leinster or Munster. Given Leinster's weakness (other than for Kilkenny), Antrim would most likely face Munster opposition and even if they won that, they would still only be in the All-Ireland quarter-final where they would face the losing finalists from Leinster or Munster.
Based on this year's draw, Antrim (assuming they lost to Galway in the first round) would probably have had to beat Clare, Cork or Tipperary, then Limerick or Waterford to qualify for the same stage of the championship as Kilkenny would reach by beating Offaly and Wexford.
The system is so disgracefully weighted against Antrim that you really do wonder how 55 of the 72 delegates voted in favour last Saturday.
Joint-managers, 'Sambo' McNaughton and Dominic McKinley, two of Antrim's proudest hurling men, had high hopes of steering the squad forward over the next few years but Saturday's decision took a wrecking ball to their ambitions.
Scandalously, Antrim got very little support from Ulster counties in their battle against injustice.
Worst of all, the majority of the hurling fraternity from Leinster/Munster voted to support the most inequitable championship system yet introduced.
Shame on all concerned.
Agree with the general gist of that but it's written slightly over the top way ey.
Could we not start with Antrim coming into Leinster? They're for it arent they?
I can sympathies with the county management here. Last years system of round robin games (whilst it suited Cork) also gave the weaker Counties a chance to develop over the three games and it was especially good to see Southern teams competing in Casement Park in the summer months. I think support would have grown in Antrim if this format was maintained This year guarantees no progress and from Sambo and Woodies perspective I can see why they would be livid.
On the other hand it provides an opportunity for the Div 1 club league. The middle order in Div 1 in Antrim was poor this year but St Johns/Ballycastle/Rossa & St Gall all have the potential to improve if the right efforts are made within those clubs. If Antrim provide a decent timetable of fixtures next year, I can see improvements in standards as well as an increase in interest levels, which it has to be said, have improved already this year due to a fairly well laid out league timetable this year
It's not often I agree with Breheny's bellyaching but this time I'm with him 100%.
Just what were they thinking of?
Surely they could have made the Galway/Antrim game a Qualifier of sorts e.g winner goes into Quarter Final,loser to first Round or else simply have an open draw -Galway/Antrim and Leinster and Munster first round losers?
Offaly got the NHL changed because they were going into Div 2 so I suppose Antrim will now go mad lobbying to get this changed.
Then we will have another short term solution which will annoy someone else etc etc. and the saga starts all over again....... >:(
stop yer crying uy soppy heures. if u want to be up there in the top,u gotta beat the top teams. wise up
Kelly claims hurling changes may be illegal
09 October 2007
Former GAA president Sean Kelly has suggested that the recent Special Congress decision to revise the hurling championship format may be open to a legal challenge.
Describing the changes as "extraordinary", Kelly added that they are possibly illegal, firstly because Special Congress overturned a decision of annual Congress without that decision ever being implemented and, secondly, because the vote was not representative of Congress.
Writing in his weekly newspaper column, he questions whether a decision of annual Congress can be overruled by a special meeting six months later and adds: "The most serious grounds for believing Special Congress last Saturday week was illegal is on the basis of representation.
"If Galway or Antrim (who were both opposed to the hurling championship changes) were to appeal the matter on those grounds, they would almost certainly win their case."
And on it rolls
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=84446
Quote from: From the Bunker on October 01, 2007, 11:10:32 PM
As i said b4
..........Provincial winners gained no advantage over Provincal losers as to progression in AI competition.
..........The Semple gate affair, handled terribly. Amateur players deserve better.
..........Cork could have won an AI having lost two games.
..........Kilkenny have not played a Munster team.
.........Waterford played 5 championship games this year yet only met two teams.
.........No one outside of the Big 8 made the breakthrough.
.........Limerick are in the final having played no one outside of Munster
.........League games proved to be a mess with Laois, Dublin, Antrim and Offaly getting hidings
.........Wexford got to a semi-final and distorted their standing.
........The doubling up of replays of quarterfinals with Semifinals to get 45 euro for tickets where often the other game was the other code.
Kilkenny and Cork win AIs. We have 4/6 others who can pretend. And we have 24 others who are just so far off of the mark it is not funny. The Ring and Rickard Cups have tried to address the problem in weaker counties but this has been nearly impossible to grade and the finals just end up one sided. Yes we got some good games but, there seemed to be a case of rearranging the deck chairs to the Championship. You lose here you go into a league Basis, it just seems to be about giving you chances and chances to qualify for the quarters. then again when you have a championship with 8 teams i suppose you have to do that. So much for it being called an "ALL" Ireland title.
Provincial champioship is holding back a successful format. If GAA is so caught up with Provincial format, why is there not provincial Ring/Rickard titles? (Would be a handy Munster Hurling title for Kerry!)
Laois didn't get any hidings in their League,They won Div 2
Did Dublin not beat Limerick and draw with Kilkenny?
While we can all cry foul about the actions of the Leinster/Munster counties (who obviously don't give a rattlers about hurling outside their own domains) the biggest knife in the back came from those cnuts in Londondown who supported the proposals!! I can forgive them for falling over themselves to let the PSNI into the Association but for this, (to quote our first minister), "Never, never,never" :-\
McSparran taking to the courts for Antrim
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Tuesday, October 16, 2007
By Michael McGeary
The GAA in Antrim is set to mount a legal challenge to the controversial new hurling championship format.
Ironically they will proceed through the courts after taking advice from former GAA President Sean Kelly.
It was Kelly who questioned the legitimacy of the recent Special Congress to make a decision that will see Antrim play Galway each year in the All Ireland hurling championship.
You have to admire Antrim chairman Dr John McSparran for having the courage of his convictions to press ahead with the legal challenge.
A lesser individual would have talked the talked without ever walking the walk, but the North Antrim doctor feels there's far too much at stake.
Antrim has to stand up and fight and if that means going to the High Court so be it.
Under the new arrangement passed at the Special Congress Antrim would play Galway every year with the losers then playing one of the first round losers in Munster, hardly the ideal scenario.
"I have no hesitation in exploring all options in an attempt to overturn the decision taken by Special Congress in an attempt to create a more level playing field for both ourselves and Galway." said McSparran.
The management committee of the Antrim Board are now set to discuss the matter and McSparran said: "It's important we act in the best interests of our county hurling team.
"Whatever action that may be open to open to us we'll study it very closely in a bid to reverse the ludicrous decision taken at Special Congress.
"There are a number of hurling people in the south saying this decision was hard on Antrim.
"Yet they all voted for it. That's Pontious Pilate stuff."
The threat of a legal challenge is the last thing the GAA want to hear, especially given the fact that it's something they have been desperately trying to eradicate.
It's the last thing the sport wants, but at least they know now that Antrim and especially chairman John McSparran are deadly serious.
Genuine hurling people in Antrim believe they are now being isolated by the same people, who have patronised them for far too long.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/gaa/article3064579.ece
I've been mulling over this for some time now, hows this sound for a hurling championship format.
12 teams
open draw, possibly a seeded draw
teams at come up agianst each other play each other 3 times with the aggregate score of those games being the decider. Before you criticise it. There would be no easy game where you could accept defeat because every score counts. So each team will be gauranteed 3 hell for leather matches as each teams will be trying to rack up the scores in every game.
The eventual losers go home to lick their wounds for a year except the 2 highest scoring losers.
4 of the 6 winners face off in a knock out stage and then the remaining 2 teams play the highest scoring losers in another knock out stage.
Then on to the semi's and then the final.
Minimum total number of games: 25
Minimum games per team: 3
Maximum games per team: 6
The big + for this format is that every game is highly competitive, no second chance unless your one of the 2 high scoring losers and every one is garuanteed 3 games. The rivalries between teams will increase with every year aswell.
downside maybe if 2 uneven teams come up against each other. may make playing three games reduntant as fixtures but every format is going to have a similar problem. But if teams are seeded that might help the minnows stay away from the very top teams.ie: Kilkenny vs Laois/Dublin/Antrim can be avoided.
I think as a format it would work as every game would be played at 100%.
So what do you reckon, workable, need any tweaks. We can only help the minnows on so much you know.
Quote from: thejuice on October 20, 2007, 12:06:05 AM
I've been mulling over this for some time now, hows this sound for a hurling championship format.
12 teams
open draw, possibly a seeded draw
teams at come up agianst each other play each other 3 times with the aggregate score of those games being the decider. Before you criticise it. There would be no easy game where you could accept defeat because every score counts. So each team will be gauranteed 3 hell for leather matches as each teams will be trying to rack up the scores in every game.
The eventual losers go home to lick their wounds for a year except the 2 highest scoring losers.
4 of the 6 winners face off in a knock out stage and then the remaining 2 teams play the highest scoring losers in another knock out stage.
Then on to the semi's and then the final.
Minimum total number of games: 25
Minimum games per team: 3
Maximum games per team: 6
The big + for this format is that every game is highly competitive, no second chance unless your one of the 2 high scoring losers and every one is garuanteed 3 games. The rivalries between teams will increase with every year aswell.
downside maybe if 2 uneven teams come up against each other. may make playing three games reduntant as fixtures but every format is going to have a similar problem. But if teams are seeded that might help the minnows stay away from the very top teams.ie: Kilkenny vs Laois/Dublin/Antrim can be avoided.
I think as a format it would work as every game would be played at 100%.
So what do you reckon, workable, need any tweaks. We can only help the minnows on so much you know.
I like the idea but couldn't KK or the big guns qualify in their first match by blasting Loais/Dub/Offaly/Antrim with 40/50 points?
I have posted this before in another thread but I think it is on topic for this one as well.
My suggestion
Ulster championship played as a straight knockout. Winners go into Leinster Q/Fs. Rest of the teams go into Ring and Rackard Cup.
Connacht champions (Galway) go into Leinster Q/Fs.
Leinster championship (Dublin, Kilkenny, Laois, Offaly, Wexford, Galway and Ulster champions)
Winners advance to All Ireland semi final, others head to a knockout backdoor competition.
Munster championship (Clare, Cork, Limerick, Tipperary, Waterford)
Winners advance to All Ireland semi final, others head to a knockout backdoor competition.
Backdoor
Round 1 (teams that don't make provincial final, 5 Leinster and 3 Munster)
Round 2 (4 winners of backdoor round 1)
Round 3 (2 winners of backdoor round 2 and 2 beaten provincial finalists)
Semi finals
Munster winners v One backdoor team (winner of backdoor round 3)
Leinster winners v Other backdoor team (winner of backdoor round 3)
Just looking at the bookies odds shows what a balls up the new format is:
QuoteKilkenny 4 - 5
Tipperary 11 - 1
Offaly 250 - 1
Cork 7 - 2
Limerick 14 - 1
Dublin 500 - 1
Waterford 5 - 1
Clare 33 - 1
Antrim 1000 - 1
Galway 13 - 2
Wexford 66 - 1
Laois 1000 - 1
Each Way Odds 1/3 places 1,2
Kilkenny odds on to win - ridiculous (not the price, but the thinking behind the format).
Quote from: dec on October 23, 2007, 02:57:04 AM
I have posted this before in another thread but I think it is on topic for this one as well.
My suggestion
Ulster championship played as a straight knockout. Winners go into Leinster Q/Fs. Rest of the teams go into Ring and Rackard Cup.
Connacht champions (Galway) go into Leinster Q/Fs.
Leinster championship (Dublin, Kilkenny, Laois, Offaly, Wexford, Galway and Ulster champions)
Winners advance to All Ireland semi final, others head to a knockout backdoor competition.
Munster championship (Clare, Cork, Limerick, Tipperary, Waterford)
Winners advance to All Ireland semi final, others head to a knockout backdoor competition.
Backdoor
Round 1 (teams that don't make provincial final, 5 Leinster and 3 Munster)
Round 2 (4 winners of backdoor round 1)
Round 3 (2 winners of backdoor round 2 and 2 beaten provincial finalists)
Semi finals
Munster winners v One backdoor team (winner of backdoor round 3)
Leinster winners v Other backdoor team (winner of backdoor round 3)
That is spot on if you ask me. Makes so much sense. please send it to nicky B and the Galway and Antrim boards, I cant see why Glaway would have aproblem witht hat format. It reads so much easier then most formatts and that can only be a good thing.