Has the McKenna Cup been shelved during 2025?
A real shame if it has.
Yes
With the shelving of the McKenna Cup for 2025 Derry's chances of three in a row are gone! I presume Counties will play plenty of challenge matches to compensate. Thus the players welfare argument goes out the window if teams are going to play the same amount of games whether it is in the McKenna Cup or otherwise.
Quote from: Derry Optimist on September 08, 2024, 03:56:49 PMWith the shelving of the McKenna Cup for 2025 Derry's chances of three in a row are gone! I presume Counties will play plenty of challenge matches to compensate. Thus the players welfare argument goes out the window if teams are going to play the same amount of games whether it is in the McKenna Cup or otherwise.
Sure they were doing that anyway.
The welfare argument is bullshit. With modern sports science etc players loads are being managed to the minute.
Seems another pointless boneheaded decision that will not change the amount of training nor games played as teams look to prepare for the leagues. Also hard to beat the McKenna Cup in January when people are looking excuses to get out of the house to do something in the depths of a post Christmas funk.
Idiots.
Advantages I've heard...
Counties can plan their schedule themselves, including making plans around 3rd level.
Counties can host games and take a gate*
* this is the big one.
Quote from: bennydorano on September 08, 2024, 04:46:18 PMSeems another pointless boneheaded decision that will not change the amount of training nor games played as teams look to prepare for the leagues. Also hard to beat the McKenna Cup in January when people are looking excuses to get out of the house to do something in the depths of a post Christmas funk.
Idiots.
Any team will half a dozen new panel members and will want to see them in a real game. And it is not a coincidence that the record McKenna cup attendance of 19,631 came on a sunny January day after one team involved had won an All Ireland, when the other might have. Apart from anything else, why forgo the revenue?
I don't get this at all. At best it is a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
Quote from: DuffleKing on September 08, 2024, 04:50:46 PMAdvantages I've heard...
Counties can plan their schedule themselves, including making plans around 3rd level.
Counties can host games and take a gate*
* this is the big one.
Of course you could have a well attended game in the Athletic grounds and play the Seven Nation Army, Freed from Desire, and G for Geezer on the tannoy, but which other team would want to come along?
Well let's say...
Armagh v Dublin
Armagh v Tyrone
Armagh v Mayo
Quote from: DuffleKing on September 08, 2024, 04:50:46 PMAdvantages I've heard...
Counties can plan their schedule themselves, including making plans around 3rd level.
Counties can host games and take a gate*
* this is the big one.
Friendlies tend to be cloak & dagger affairs in GAA pre season, with a need to know basis for locations! Will take a big mindset change to start with pay-in challenge games.
That is definitely the plan though, as you say, it'll take a bit of work.
I guess if counties set out say 3 games in January as their season prep series and market accordingly it could work.
Easier to sell Armagh v Dublin than Longford v Leitrim. I guess counties would be agreeing to split gates.
Quote from: DuffleKing on September 08, 2024, 06:38:47 PMThat is definitely the plan though, as you say, it'll take a bit of work.
I guess if counties set out say 3 games in January as their season prep series and market accordingly it could work.
Easier to sell Armagh v Dublin than Longford v Leitrim. I guess counties would be agreeing to split gates.
No big deal sure the McKenna cup was a nothing competition anyway. Didn't Armagh play a McKenna cup game one day (with the bones of a team and u20s) and a challenge match the next or did I misremember that??
Let's face it, the McKenna Cup was a series of pumped up challenge games
Will counties even want to arrange challenge games against teams they will play a few weeks time in the league. Will Counties even want to travel long distances that time of year. Will we just end up with load of challenges ulster teams meaning they might aswell have kept mckenna cup.As i think someone pointed out are a lot of challenge games behind closed doors and not promoted.
Jeepers I loved the McKenna Cup. Kept me going over Christmas.
As rubbish as the McKenna Cup cud be, someone did a lot of the organising for your County, that step will be removed and I'd say we're all in agreement that warm up games WILL be played to the same degree, so it's probably more hassle not to have it!
Think it was 2007 the last time I went to a McKenna Cup match. Watched Down C play Antrim B. It was mostly a box checking exercise to allow lads who'd trained over the winter to say they'd played county... before being released.
The McKenna Cup was rubbish, it always was, and - thankfully - never will be again.
Quote from: thewobbler on September 08, 2024, 11:03:47 PMThink it was 2007 the last time I went to a McKenna Cup match. Watched Down C play Antrim B. It was mostly a box checking exercise to allow lads who'd trained over the winter to say they'd played county... before being released.
The McKenna Cup was rubbish, it always was, and - thankfully - never will be again.
Quote from: thewobbler on September 08, 2024, 11:03:47 PMThink it was 2007 the last time I went to a McKenna Cup match. Watched Down C play Antrim B. It was mostly a box checking exercise to allow lads who'd trained over the winter to say they'd played county... before being released.
The McKenna Cup was rubbish, it always was, and - thankfully - never will be again.
I hindsight Down should maybe have taken the McKenna more seriously
Imo, it will be missed, if not by some supporters, by the county teams / management. I've enjoyed it over the years, comes at the time you've just recharged the batteries and are ready for another year of football. The games between Christmas and the NY when you've got cabin fever were always enjoyable
Was it not the County teams' players who wanted them abolished?,
Come January, you be's crying about nothing to go to. McKenna cup killed the first 2 weeks in the New year.
Expand league to 10 teams start it earlier.
The mckenna cup had a good wee format it it wasnt straight knockout but you had to win group to make sure y got through so there was a jeopardy with the context of the tournament the format was different from the ulster championship some of the other province pre season competitions had same format as the provincial championship which was pointless.
Quote from: EmeraldOpal on September 09, 2024, 06:34:01 AMThe mckenna cup had a good wee format it it wasnt straight knockout but you had to win group to make sure y got through so there was a jeopardy with the context of the tournament the format was different from the ulster championship some of the other province pre season competitions had same format as the provincial championship which was pointless.
Yeah, decent competition. Managers and counties got what they want from it so it worked grand.
Teams will just organise friendlies now anyway so not sure what the purpose of the motion is.
Quote from: Saffrongael on September 08, 2024, 09:52:23 PMLet's face it, the McKenna Cup was a series of pumped up challenge games
Yes. That's the point
Quote from: thewobbler on September 08, 2024, 11:03:47 PMThink it was 2007 the last time I went to a McKenna Cup match. Watched Down C play Antrim B. It was mostly a box checking exercise to allow lads who'd trained over the winter to say they'd played county... before being released.
The McKenna Cup was rubbish, it always was, and - thankfully - never will be again.
Only gone for 2025. No one has said never. And just because you didn't like it, doesn't mean all others didn't either
I think this will impact the league. This competition was pretty competitive and ulster teams tended to start the league well. Be interesting to see if it makes a difference.
I like the mckenna cup. Usually the first chance to see new panel players and by the time Jan comes around, getting out to a competitive match is a tonic.
Nobody really cares about results, it's just good to see how teams are shaping up.
Really disappointed it's cancelled for 2025.
Quote from: screenexile on September 08, 2024, 09:42:30 PMQuote from: DuffleKing on September 08, 2024, 06:38:47 PMThat is definitely the plan though, as you say, it'll take a bit of work.
I guess if counties set out say 3 games in January as their season prep series and market accordingly it could work.
Easier to sell Armagh v Dublin than Longford v Leitrim. I guess counties would be agreeing to split gates.
No big deal sure the McKenna cup was a nothing competition anyway. Didn't Armagh play a McKenna cup game one day (with the bones of a team and u20s) and a challenge match the next or did I misremember that??
Yeah maybe was the same day actually. Donegal played our u20's and we played either Mayo or Dublin in a friendly.
Are the other pre season competitions 'taking a break'?
The statement said "pre season competitions suspended for a year"
So chips off shoulders chaps.
Does it also apply to hurley stuff??
Quote from: Saffrongael on September 08, 2024, 09:52:23 PMLet's face it, the McKenna Cup was a series of pumped up challenge games
Yeah but you knew when and where they were on so could watch them. It helped satisfy the early season appetite for games. This year would have been a big one too with Armagh being AI champs, Donegal coming off a good year. Tyrone and Derry with new mgmt. I'd imagine it would have drawn some decent crowds.
Well this put an end to the accusations of the Grab All Association, since thousands of punters want to hand over their cash but the GAA is not interested/
Tom Parsons saying the players wanted an end to pre season competitions and Jarlath B. agreed with that.
Player welfare and burn out among the reasons for getting rid of pre season competitions. Only the McKenna cup was taken somewhat serious over the last few years and elsewhere counties fielded 3rd strength teams or development teams while 1st choice panels was playing challenges elsewhere.
I think NFL will likely start mid Jan and finished in March giving every team a few weeks prep time before the provincial championship start.
Player welfare, well all that means, is more training instead of games.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on September 09, 2024, 10:19:57 PMPlayer welfare, well all that means, is more training instead of games.
If it means fewer opportunities for lads to have to play Sigerson and county on the same day or consecutive days, then there is a welfare angle.
Managers will though of course undo those advantages gained.
Quote from: thewobbler on September 09, 2024, 10:23:24 PMQuote from: Wildweasel74 on September 09, 2024, 10:19:57 PMPlayer welfare, well all that means, is more training instead of games.
If it means fewer opportunities for lads to have to play Sigerson and county on the same day or consecutive days, then there is a welfare angle.
Managers will though of course undo those advantages gained.
No harm, I never get the way we've been led by College football. Who actually cares about Sigerson? If a player wants to play it, let them at it. But it has moved from a weekend, to now over multiple weeks, where it competes with inter county and some All ireland club games. Again, if they want to, let them at it, but i don't get why others must try work around Sigerson to be very honest when the wider public does not care for it
Why Sigerson?
Well for many players it's the only chance they'll ever have of winning a grade 1 All Ireland.
Which means the standard is top class. Which means even players from Dublin and Kerry get it.
That's why.
Quote from: thewobbler on September 09, 2024, 10:23:24 PMQuote from: Wildweasel74 on September 09, 2024, 10:19:57 PMPlayer welfare, well all that means, is more training instead of games.
If it means fewer opportunities for lads to have to play Sigerson and county on the same day or consecutive days, then there is a welfare angle.
Managers will though of course undo those advantages gained.
So for the 4 or 5% of players impacted by playing Sigerson/Fitzgibbon and County on the same day just stop the other 95% from playing anything and spending more time training?
Just make a rule that if you're on a Colleges panel or scholarship that you're not allowed to play in these pumped up pre season friendlies, is that not the most obvious solution?
The loss in revenues for the Provincial councils and counties will have an impact somewhere.
Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2024, 08:50:22 AMWhy Sigerson?
Well for many players it's the only chance they'll ever have of winning a grade 1 All Ireland.
Which means the standard is top class. Which means even players from Dublin and Kerry get it.
That's why.
And let them at it. But most don't care. But we can't let that drive that vast bulk of other things going on.
Quote from: johnnycool on September 10, 2024, 08:52:57 AMQuote from: thewobbler on September 09, 2024, 10:23:24 PMQuote from: Wildweasel74 on September 09, 2024, 10:19:57 PMPlayer welfare, well all that means, is more training instead of games.
If it means fewer opportunities for lads to have to play Sigerson and county on the same day or consecutive days, then there is a welfare angle.
Managers will though of course undo those advantages gained.
So for the 4 or 5% of players impacted by playing Sigerson/Fitzgibbon and County on the same day just stop the other 95% from playing anything and spending more time training?
Just make a rule that if you're on a Colleges panel or scholarship that you're not allowed to play in these pumped up pre season friendlies, is that not the most obvious solution?
The loss in revenues for the Provincial councils and counties will have an impact somewhere.
It's more than 4-5%. McKenna Cup was were younger players were traditionally introduced to county football i.e. those of student age.
Anyhow senior county managers sicken my hole. They'll simultaneously not take the competition seriously, while demanding that all college age players make themselves available to their county (or else). They're the fundamental reason why top brass had to implement these measures.
——
Btw they tried such a rule a few years ago when the colleges were in the McKenna Cup. And half the managers in Ulster threw their toys out of the pram.
If teams can arrange 3 designated pre season friendly games open to public could that work and charge a very low admission price.
Why do counties need 3 pre season friendlies before taking part in a national league they've no interest in winning?
Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2024, 09:39:28 AMWhy do counties need 3 pre season friendlies before taking part in a national league they've no interest in winning?
I'll be out doing lots of challenge games before xmas never mind the McKenna cup, teams will prepare as they see fit, and who wants to be hammering and tongs at the pitch and gym for training with no match to look forward to?
Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2024, 09:39:28 AMWhy do counties need 3 pre season friendlies before taking part in a national league they've no interest in winning?
Have you ever managed a team? Surely you can see the benefits of the McKenna Cup? Maybe time to pick another sport
Quote from: JoG2 on September 10, 2024, 09:52:27 AMQuote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2024, 09:39:28 AMWhy do counties need 3 pre season friendlies before taking part in a national league they've no interest in winning?
Have you ever managed a team? Surely you can see the benefits of the McKenna Cup? Maybe time to pick another sport
To be honest, I don't think you're applying much logic here.
It's the kind of groupthink that permeates Gaelic Games, and is driven by managers (and players) who will blame everyone and everything but themselves when seasons do not go their way. It falls from the same tree whereby one year people will tell you a competitive Ulster Championship is the best preparation for a run at an AI title, and the following year will tell you that the competitiveness of the Ulster Championship takes its toll on northern counties as the season moves on. It's all all f**king nonsense sound bite shit that people latch onto rather than accept they were beaten fairly and squarely.
Whether or not there is a McKenna Cup will have no bearing on anyone's season. Half of the players in that competition were traditionally discarded by the halfway point of the league. Which, oddly enough, roughly the same point when half the teams forget about the league and start planning for a championship they cannot win. And that's when their real shape, style and personnel begin to unfold.
The current January has roughly the same impact on a team's current season, as a January from 5 years ago.
Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2024, 10:07:13 AMQuote from: JoG2 on September 10, 2024, 09:52:27 AMQuote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2024, 09:39:28 AMWhy do counties need 3 pre season friendlies before taking part in a national league they've no interest in winning?
Have you ever managed a team? Surely you can see the benefits of the McKenna Cup? Maybe time to pick another sport
To be honest, I don't think you're applying much logic here.
It's the kind of groupthink that permeates Gaelic Games, and is driven by managers (and players) who will blame everyone and everything but themselves when seasons do not go their way. It falls from the same tree whereby one year people will tell you a competitive Ulster Championship is the best preparation for a run at an AI title, and the following year will tell you that the competitiveness of the Ulster Championship takes its toll on northern counties as the season moves on. It's all all f**king nonsense sound bite shit that people latch onto rather than accept they were beaten fairly and squarely.
Whether or not there is a McKenna Cup will have no bearing on anyone's season. Half of the players in that competition were traditionally discarded by the halfway point of the league. Which, oddly enough, roughly the same point when half the teams forget about the league and start planning for a championship they cannot win. And that's when their real shape, style and personnel begin to unfold.
The current January has roughly the same impact on a team's current season, as a January from 5 years ago.
That's the key word here...so you'll naturally go the other way.
The McKenna Cup, 3rd in the pecking order, has its benefits. It's football games at the end of the day, in the longest month of the year. While you maybe want to suck the life out of it, for many supporters, it's a welcome release. For managers there's multiple benefits, and for many players, it's a chance to either show what you're about, or for an established player to regain some fitness for the league ahead.
Just have a look at the attendances for the finals, often mid week, often a good distance to travel.
That's it. Groupthink is not evil. Dare to think differently and you're not real GAA. Even when correlation and causation are rarely seen as far apart as McKenna Cup success and AI success.
I mean who can forget the importance of the McKenna Cup in Tyrone's preparations for 2021 AI success?
Or how going to Donegal and getting mullered by a team who didn't even know eligibility guidelines, then tamely exiting in a semi-final, each proved pivotal in Armagh's 2024 AI success?
For me the main thing is that it doesn't adjust the season farther. It is a groupthink as said above, and it's also a very easy whipping boy to show change while not making much at all. For some reason it was very easy to point to quasi challenge games and show they're the problem. If they are cancelled forever after next year, and January is still kept free for challenge matches behind closed doors, then I'll be annoyed but understand it.
But if they see a window and push League forward to mid January or something then that's a joke. We already play bulk of our games in Winter/Spring, and this will only push it more so. We'll end up losing a competition for the hardcore which is used as build up, only to fill the window with the actual real games and have a lot of teams playing essentially no games in good weather come June.
f**k but there are some cynical bastards on here.
Who actually cares if counties field a forth string side in January? Who cares if they've no ambition of winning the National league?
What does it matter if it has zero impact on a teams performance in the summer?
The only difference from what I can see is that kids straight away get to wear their new gear that they got at Christmas to a county match.
It gets people like me out of the house in January when I'm at a loose end.
Dare I say it the Ulster Council might even make a few quid.
Probably most importantly though, players who have never represented their county might get to do so in front of paying supporters. Their families might actually get to see them pull on the county colours in flesh in an official match and maybe even on tv.
I know the prestige and enjoyment has gone from representing your county nowadays but these games will go ahead regardless, only they'll be behind closed doors in places like Garvaghey, Darver, the Dub etc
Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2024, 10:42:50 AMThat's it. Groupthink is not evil. Dare to think differently and you're not real GAA. Even when correlation and causation are rarely seen as far apart as McKenna Cup success and AI success.
I mean who can forget the importance of the McKenna Cup in Tyrone's preparations for 2021 AI success?
Or how going to Donegal and getting mullered by a team who didn't even know eligibility guidelines, then tamely exiting in a semi-final, each proved pivotal in Armagh's 2024 AI success?
You've the AI in one hand and the McKenna in the other, that's a ridiculous starting point tbh and having a pop at the league to boot. A very negative outlook on the GAA calendar
Okay so.
Looks like the argument "for" is changing direction. Just a couple of hours ago it was in support of valuable warm-up competition (one that managers did not want).
Now it's focusing on the personal and emotional pow-wow of "what is poor old me meant to do in January? Doesn't anyone think of me?"
Continue to call me a cynic. I don't really care. But anyone who thinks that in demanding another month of county season - played in the worst of conditions, for the lowest of prizes in a competition that neither players nor management want - that they have some emotional upper hand in this debate, well to be honest you're halfway to the crazy house.
Quote from: general_lee on September 10, 2024, 11:42:24 AMf**k but there are some cynical bastards on here.
Who actually cares if counties field a forth string side in January? Who cares if they've no ambition of winning the National league?
What does it matter if it has zero impact on a teams performance in the summer?
The only difference from what I can see is that kids straight away get to wear their new gear that they got at Christmas to a county match.
It gets people like me out of the house in January when I'm at a loose end.
Dare I say it the Ulster Council might even make a few quid.
Probably most importantly though, players who have never represented their county might get to do so in front of paying supporters. Their families might actually get to see them pull on the county colours in flesh in an official match and maybe even on tv.
I know the prestige and enjoyment has gone from representing your county nowadays but these games will go ahead regardless, only they'll be behind closed doors in places like Garvaghey, Darver, the Dub etc
Yeah well said, agree with this
Quote from: JoG2 on September 10, 2024, 11:55:05 AMQuote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2024, 10:42:50 AMThat's it. Groupthink is not evil. Dare to think differently and you're not real GAA. Even when correlation and causation are rarely seen as far apart as McKenna Cup success and AI success.
I mean who can forget the importance of the McKenna Cup in Tyrone's preparations for 2021 AI success?
Or how going to Donegal and getting mullered by a team who didn't even know eligibility guidelines, then tamely exiting in a semi-final, each proved pivotal in Armagh's 2024 AI success?
You've the AI in one hand and the McKenna in the other, that's a ridiculous starting point tbh and having a pop at the league to boot. A very negative outlook on the GAA calendar
How is it ridiculous? And how is it fixing anything really?
Quote from: general_lee on September 10, 2024, 11:42:24 AMf**k but there are some cynical bastards on here.
Who actually cares if counties field a forth string side in January? Who cares if they've no ambition of winning the National league?
What does it matter if it has zero impact on a teams performance in the summer?
The only difference from what I can see is that kids straight away get to wear their new gear that they got at Christmas to a county match.
It gets people like me out of the house in January when I'm at a loose end.
Dare I say it the Ulster Council might even make a few quid.
Probably most importantly though, players who have never represented their county might get to do so in front of paying supporters. Their families might actually get to see them pull on the county colours in flesh in an official match and maybe even on tv.
I know the prestige and enjoyment has gone from representing your county nowadays but these games will go ahead regardless, only they'll be behind closed doors in places like Garvaghey, Darver, the Dub etc
Fully agree with this
Quote from: Dreadnought on September 10, 2024, 02:06:54 PMQuote from: JoG2 on September 10, 2024, 11:55:05 AMQuote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2024, 10:42:50 AMThat's it. Groupthink is not evil. Dare to think differently and you're not real GAA. Even when correlation and causation are rarely seen as far apart as McKenna Cup success and AI success.
I mean who can forget the importance of the McKenna Cup in Tyrone's preparations for 2021 AI success?
Or how going to Donegal and getting mullered by a team who didn't even know eligibility guidelines, then tamely exiting in a semi-final, each proved pivotal in Armagh's 2024 AI success?
You've the AI in one hand and the McKenna in the other, that's a ridiculous starting point tbh and having a pop at the league to boot. A very negative outlook on the GAA calendar
How is it ridiculous? And how is it fixing anything really?
Well, we'll have to see how 2025 pans out.
Counties won't be going into the 1st round of League without a few challenge games under their belt that's for sure, so what is it fixing? If the league starts mid Jan to allow for a break before the Anglo Celt, counties will be playing challenge matches throughout December. Div 1 teams will be desperate to stay in Div 1.Div 2 will want to survive / get promoted. Div 3 will desperately want to get into the top 2 leagues for the AI series.
All this doing is taking the crowds away from the games and giving the county secs alot more work
Is December not a closed shop?
Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2024, 10:07:13 AMQuote from: JoG2 on September 10, 2024, 09:52:27 AMQuote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2024, 09:39:28 AMWhy do counties need 3 pre season friendlies before taking part in a national league they've no interest in winning?
Have you ever managed a team? Surely you can see the benefits of the McKenna Cup? Maybe time to pick another sport
To be honest, I don't think you're applying much logic here.
It's the kind of groupthink that permeates Gaelic Games, and is driven by managers (and players) who will blame everyone and everything but themselves when seasons do not go their way. It falls from the same tree whereby one year people will tell you a competitive Ulster Championship is the best preparation for a run at an AI title, and the following year will tell you that the competitiveness of the Ulster Championship takes its toll on northern counties as the season moves on. It's all all f**king nonsense sound bite shit that people latch onto rather than accept they were beaten fairly and squarely.
Whether or not there is a McKenna Cup will have no bearing on anyone's season. Half of the players in that competition were traditionally discarded by the halfway point of the league. Which, oddly enough, roughly the same point when half the teams forget about the league and start planning for a championship they cannot win. And that's when their real shape, style and personnel begin to unfold.
The current January has roughly the same impact on a team's current season, as a January from 5 years ago.
Ok, logic here. You're managing, Down. You've your first league game against Monaghan , Sun 19th Jan. How do you prepare your team in say the 4 weeks leading up to the 1st league game?
Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2024, 12:57:07 PMOkay so.
Looks like the argument "for" is changing direction. Just a couple of hours ago it was in support of valuable warm-up competition (one that managers did not want).
Now it's focusing on the personal and emotional pow-wow of "what is poor old me meant to do in January? Doesn't anyone think of me?"
Continue to call me a cynic. I don't really care. But anyone who thinks that in demanding another month of county season - played in the worst of conditions, for the lowest of prizes in a competition that neither players nor management want - that they have some emotional upper hand in this debate, well to be honest you're halfway to the crazy house.
The crux of my argument is as follows:
Regardless of how pointless you think the McKenna Cup is; in 4 months time the managers you say don't want to have matches in January will be busy mulling their eyes over players you say don't want to play for their county in January, doing exactly that; against other counties whose players and managers also supposedly don't want to be there. With the only difference being that they've picked the opposition themselves and they're played behind closed doors.
McKenna cup very heavily used by ulster teams. It is IMO why teams in Ulster do better at the earlier stages in the leagues.
Leagues are not about winning yes - they're about getting promoted as high as you can and if division 1 staying there.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cx2g29w1wgro
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 10, 2024, 03:17:28 PMMcKenna cup very heavily used by ulster teams. It is IMO why teams in Ulster do better at the earlier stages in the leagues.
Leagues are not about winning yes - they're about getting promoted as high as you can and if division 1 staying there.
Jebus wept
Develop a winning culture 101 - don't worry about winning the league, mid table mediocrity will do, hang in the long grass for an ambush
Last 2 winners of Sam came from Division 2
division 1 more than the rest... The rest are about promotion if you can.
trial players as much as anything once the points are on the board. Who has really focused on winning the league?
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 12, 2024, 11:44:12 AMdivision 1 more than the rest... The rest are about promotion if you can.
trial players as much as anything once the points are on the board. Who has really focused on winning the league?
Derry.
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 12, 2024, 11:57:37 AMQuote from: imtommygunn on September 12, 2024, 11:44:12 AMdivision 1 more than the rest... The rest are about promotion if you can.
trial players as much as anything once the points are on the board. Who has really focused on winning the league?
Derry.
Dubs, Tyrone, Kerry, Cork all spent time focusing on it as part of the bigger picture, winning habit and all
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 12, 2024, 11:44:12 AMdivision 1 more than the rest... The rest are about promotion if you can.
trial players as much as anything once the points are on the board. Who has really focused on winning the league?
I could see how management might not field their strongest team (to the detriment of players in form).
But as soon as any player steps on the field I assume they are givng 100%.
Has anyone on the board played a club or county game and deliberately gave only 50%?
Theres definitely an element of it, even subconsciously you'll get that extra few % out of yourself knowing a game is more important than another.
Then you have lads peaking fitness wise for championship and maybe different gameplans being trialled out in less in league games.
Remember reading about how Armagh eased up in a lot of league games this year and began working on different systems/set plays/calls etc when the game was comfortable.
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 12, 2024, 09:52:27 PMTheres definitely an element of it, even subconsciously you'll get that extra few % out of yourself knowing a game is more important than another.
Then you have lads peaking fitness wise for championship and maybe different gameplans being trialled out in less in league games.
Remember reading about how Armagh eased up in a lot of league games this year and began working on different systems/set plays/calls etc when the game was comfortable.
And of course being in Div 2 they had the luxury to ease up, a luxury that may not be available in Div 1. Of course, with a more mature game plan they now might benefit more from a good test of it.
Quote from: armaghniac on September 12, 2024, 11:14:18 PMQuote from: Armagh18 on September 12, 2024, 09:52:27 PMTheres definitely an element of it, even subconsciously you'll get that extra few % out of yourself knowing a game is more important than another.
Then you have lads peaking fitness wise for championship and maybe different gameplans being trialled out in less in league games.
Remember reading about how Armagh eased up in a lot of league games this year and began working on different systems/set plays/calls etc when the game was comfortable.
And of course being in Div 2 they had the luxury to ease up, a luxury that may not be available in Div 1. Of course, with a more mature game plan they now might benefit more from a good test of it.
Argument to be made either way I suppose, Galway and Tyrone this year both had to throw some inexperienced lads in at the deep end and it'll probably stand to them in the long run.
See the inter-pro manager's giving off in today's Irish News about the withdrawal of the pre season tournaments - especially so as it would have been an ideal testing ground for the new rules. As I said a few times, the decision to stop them seemed particularly idiotic to me as the vast majority of teams will be running around like blue arsed flies arranging pre-season friendlies anyway.
Made no sense dropping them for Jan 25 with a probable raft of new rules coming in.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 15, 2024, 11:44:34 AMMade no sense dropping them for Jan 25 with a probable raft of new rules coming in.
And would teams have taken pre-season competitions serious if they weren't scrapped? managers in recent years picked only a few first choice players, Galway for example went further by fielding development panel in the FBD, didn't Donegal play their U20s in the McKenna cup one year?
Cavan have put in to congress to have them reinstated. Makes sense, the one year we have loads of new rules potentially, and no pre season games
No McKenna cup or other pre-season tournaments for 2025, needed 60% votes for it to return and was three votes short.
Jarly trying to be everything to all people, a needless fail and sizable loss of revenue in Ulster
Quote from: tiempo on October 26, 2024, 09:48:48 PMJarly trying to be everything to all people, a needless fail and sizable loss of revenue in Ulster
I imagine that Armagh would get a decent crowd anyway.
The Connacht council too have cut back owing to the loss of revenue.
It does not seem a well thought out decision, was there a 60% majority to abolish these in the first place?
Quote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2024, 09:51:54 PMQuote from: tiempo on October 26, 2024, 09:48:48 PMJarly trying to be everything to all people, a needless fail and sizable loss of revenue in Ulster
I imagine that Armagh would get a decent crowd anyway.
The Connacht council too have cut back owing to the loss of revenue.
It does not seem a well thought out decision, was there a 60% majority to abolish these in the first place?
Hmm ...good question
Quote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2024, 09:51:54 PMQuote from: tiempo on October 26, 2024, 09:48:48 PMJarly trying to be everything to all people, a needless fail and sizable loss of revenue in Ulster
I imagine that Armagh would get a decent crowd anyway.
The Connacht council too have cut back owing to the loss of revenue.
It does not seem a well thought out decision, was there a 60% majority to abolish these in the first place?
They had a bigger loss of revenue by moving FBD matches into the dome which can only hold 1500-2000. Last Mayo v Galway FBD games played outdoors had over 7000 in attendance.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 26, 2024, 10:18:28 PMQuote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2024, 09:51:54 PMQuote from: tiempo on October 26, 2024, 09:48:48 PMJarly trying to be everything to all people, a needless fail and sizable loss of revenue in Ulster
I imagine that Armagh would get a decent crowd anyway.
The Connacht council too have cut back owing to the loss of revenue.
It does not seem a well thought out decision, was there a 60% majority to abolish these in the first place?
They had a bigger loss of revenue by moving FBD matches into the dome which can only hold 1500-2000. Last Mayo v Galway FBD games played outdoors had over 7000 in attendance.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 26, 2024, 10:18:28 PMQuote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2024, 09:51:54 PMQuote from: tiempo on October 26, 2024, 09:48:48 PMJarly trying to be everything to all people, a needless fail and sizable loss of revenue in Ulster
I imagine that Armagh would get a decent crowd anyway.
The Connacht council too have cut back owing to the loss of revenue.
It does not seem a well thought out decision, was there a 60% majority to abolish these in the first place?
They had a bigger loss of revenue by moving FBD matches into the dome which can only hold 1500-2000. Last Mayo v Galway FBD games played outdoors had over 7000 in attendance.
The loss of the Mc Kenna will gave a big impact on the grants available to clubs for grounds improvements etc.
Quote from: Delgany 2nds on October 26, 2024, 11:02:55 PMQuote from: Cunny Funt on October 26, 2024, 10:18:28 PMQuote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2024, 09:51:54 PMQuote from: tiempo on October 26, 2024, 09:48:48 PMJarly trying to be everything to all people, a needless fail and sizable loss of revenue in Ulster
I imagine that Armagh would get a decent crowd anyway.
The Connacht council too have cut back owing to the loss of revenue.
It does not seem a well thought out decision, was there a 60% majority to abolish these in the first place?
They had a bigger loss of revenue by moving FBD matches into the dome which can only hold 1500-2000. Last Mayo v Galway FBD games played outdoors had over 7000 in attendance.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 26, 2024, 10:18:28 PMQuote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2024, 09:51:54 PMQuote from: tiempo on October 26, 2024, 09:48:48 PMJarly trying to be everything to all people, a needless fail and sizable loss of revenue in Ulster
I imagine that Armagh would get a decent crowd anyway.
The Connacht council too have cut back owing to the loss of revenue.
It does not seem a well thought out decision, was there a 60% majority to abolish these in the first place?
They had a bigger loss of revenue by moving FBD matches into the dome which can only hold 1500-2000. Last Mayo v Galway FBD games played outdoors had over 7000 in attendance.
The loss of the Mc Kenna will gave a big impact on the grants available to clubs for grounds improvements etc.
I'm not sure how the clubs will be able to provide facilities without that £50 handshake from Ulster.
Note, not £50k. £50. My figure might not be exact but nor is it far away.
Correct. Not exactly sure how the Ulster Council budget gets spent in any way that benefits either the constituent clubs or counties.
Quote from: DuffleKing on October 27, 2024, 03:10:15 PMCorrect. Not exactly sure how the Ulster Council budget gets spent in any way that benefits either the constituent clubs or counties.
Either way, that budget will now be tens of thousands less than before.
Quote from: DuffleKing on October 27, 2024, 03:10:15 PMCorrect. Not exactly sure how the Ulster Council budget gets spent in any way that benefits either the constituent clubs or counties.
Ulster GAA provide infrastructure grants from £5- £10k to clubs for a range of projects. Not £50 and Not 100 000s either but not to be sniffed at
Must all be going to clubs I don't know.
https://ulster.gaa.ie/2024/02/record-number-of-ulster-gaa-clubs-awarded-development-funding/
Not huge money but nevertheless not buttons either.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 26, 2024, 11:29:34 PMQuote from: Delgany 2nds on October 26, 2024, 11:02:55 PMQuote from: Cunny Funt on October 26, 2024, 10:18:28 PMQuote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2024, 09:51:54 PMQuote from: tiempo on October 26, 2024, 09:48:48 PMJarly trying to be everything to all people, a needless fail and sizable loss of revenue in Ulster
I imagine that Armagh would get a decent crowd anyway.
The Connacht council too have cut back owing to the loss of revenue.
It does not seem a well thought out decision, was there a 60% majority to abolish these in the first place?
They had a bigger loss of revenue by moving FBD matches into the dome which can only hold 1500-2000. Last Mayo v Galway FBD games played outdoors had over 7000 in attendance.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 26, 2024, 10:18:28 PMQuote from: armaghniac on October 26, 2024, 09:51:54 PMQuote from: tiempo on October 26, 2024, 09:48:48 PMJarly trying to be everything to all people, a needless fail and sizable loss of revenue in Ulster
I imagine that Armagh would get a decent crowd anyway.
The Connacht council too have cut back owing to the loss of revenue.
It does not seem a well thought out decision, was there a 60% majority to abolish these in the first place?
They had a bigger loss of revenue by moving FBD matches into the dome which can only hold 1500-2000. Last Mayo v Galway FBD games played outdoors had over 7000 in attendance.
The loss of the Mc Kenna will gave a big impact on the grants available to clubs for grounds improvements etc.
I'm not sure how the clubs will be able to provide facilities without that £50 handshake from Ulster.
Note, not £50k. £50. My figure might not be exact but nor is it far away.
That is Croke Park money allocated by the Ulster Council - have another go.
Quote from: DuffleKing on October 27, 2024, 08:45:30 PMThat is Croke Park money allocated by the Ulster Council - have another go.
I made no mention of where the funding came from but rather that it wasn't the £50 handshake alluded to. These are the only infrastructure grants awarded by the Ulster Council.
As you said yourself - have another go.
Apologies by £50 was flippant.
It turns out the average grant is €3,891 or about £3,300.
Call me flippant again, I don't mind. Buy when clubs are budgeting for their 6 and 7 figure developments, that £3,300 doesn't really play a role in the decision making process.
Of course free money is nice. But the emotive suggestion previous was that no McKenna Cup will harm club's development plans. It won't. It won't even register.
Quote from: thewobbler on October 28, 2024, 10:56:36 AMApologies by £50 was flippant.
It turns out the average grant is €3,891 or about £3,300.
Call me flippant again, I don't mind. Buy when clubs are budgeting for their 6 and 7 figure developments, that £3,300 doesn't really play a role in the decision making process.
Of course free money is nice. But the emotive suggestion previous was that no McKenna Cup will harm club's development plans. It won't. It won't even register.
a club doing a large development will end up getting c€20-25k from Ulster Council
It's madness to scrap the likes of McKenna Cup only to all inter county challenge games at the same time, how does that protect player?
GPA badly led
Quote from: oakleafgael on October 28, 2024, 09:32:21 AMQuote from: DuffleKing on October 27, 2024, 08:45:30 PMThat is Croke Park money allocated by the Ulster Council - have another go.
I made no mention of where the funding came from but rather that it wasn't the £50 handshake alluded to. These are the only infrastructure grants awarded by the Ulster Council.
As you said yourself - have another go.
This money is not contingent upon McKenna Cup gate money - it's centrally provided funding.
I think the best way to look at it is, intercounty managers are now in a position where they can decide themselves how they think is the best way to prepare their team for the new season. Was it last season, Armagh were sending their youth teams to McKenna Cup games while their main panel was away playing challenge matches against clubs outside Ulster.
Ulster GAA secretary Brian McAvoy
Quote"The GPA issued a strong statement highlighting that November should be 'a zero contact' month. If even a fraction of the reports of inter-county collective training sessions taking place in November are true, then the December 7th date was flouted high and wide across the country,"
" What did the GPA say or do during this time to call this out? I'm not sure if they did or said anything. It seems as if they were true to their word and had 'zero contact' with their members on the issue during this time. It seems as if the argument of abandoning the pre-season competitions in order to save inter-county footballers from collective training in November was a fallacy."
There were no winners, "only losers", from the decision to suspend pre-season competitions.
"County players seemingly still trained in November, supporters missed out on pre-season competitions, inter-county football teams missed out on an opportunity to trial the new rules in a semi-competitive environment, fringe county players missed out on the opportunity to represent their county, referees on a development pathway missed out on the opportunity to officiate at a higher level, Provincial Councils lost out on a significant revenue source and had the unenviable task of explaining to sponsors how competitions could be removed at a whim.
"Ultimately, clubs and young people lost out due to a reduction in both grants and programme delivery due to the associated revenue loss. One can but hope that the pre-season competitions will be restored to their rightful place in 2026."
Quote from: SaffronSports on October 28, 2024, 04:06:36 PMI think the best way to look at it is, intercounty managers are now in a position where they can decide themselves how they think is the best way to prepare their team for the new season. Was it last season, Armagh were sending their youth teams to McKenna Cup games while their main panel was away playing challenge matches against clubs outside Ulster.
Think it was the Donegal game, we sent mostly u20's and a few wider panel lads, while the main squad went and played the Dubs.
Probably moreso annoying for supporters in that we won't get to see the new rules
Quote from: Captain Obvious on December 31, 2024, 07:01:36 PMUlster GAA secretary Brian McAvoy
Quote"The GPA issued a strong statement highlighting that November should be 'a zero contact' month. If even a fraction of the reports of inter-county collective training sessions taking place in November are true, then the December 7th date was flouted high and wide across the country,"
" What did the GPA say or do during this time to call this out? I'm not sure if they did or said anything. It seems as if they were true to their word and had 'zero contact' with their members on the issue during this time. It seems as if the argument of abandoning the pre-season competitions in order to save inter-county footballers from collective training in November was a fallacy."
There were no winners, "only losers", from the decision to suspend pre-season competitions.
"County players seemingly still trained in November, supporters missed out on pre-season competitions, inter-county football teams missed out on an opportunity to trial the new rules in a semi-competitive environment, fringe county players missed out on the opportunity to represent their county, referees on a development pathway missed out on the opportunity to officiate at a higher level, Provincial Councils lost out on a significant revenue source and had the unenviable task of explaining to sponsors how competitions could be removed at a whim.
"Ultimately, clubs and young people lost out due to a reduction in both grants and programme delivery due to the associated revenue loss. One can but hope that the pre-season competitions will be restored to their rightful place in 2026."
In truth all that gpa got from this was the lack of any control over fixtures. Every intercounty team will play as many, if not more matches this winter but there will be no organisation to any of it.
No idea what the GPA were thinking, but more importantly they should have been told to step back by the GAA, the tail should never wag the dog. Only a f**king idiot couldn't see the pre season comps were needed more than ever in January.
Quote from: bennydorano on December 31, 2024, 09:08:16 PMNo idea what the GPA were thinking, but more importantly they should have been told to step back by the GAA, the tail should never wag the dog. Only a f**king idiot couldn't see the pre season comps were needed more than ever in January.
Couldn't agree more. I don't know anyone with the exception of 1 poster in here who thinks it's a good idea. Every county will now have 2 or 3 January challenge matches arranged.
Quote from: JoG2 on December 31, 2024, 11:40:04 PMQuote from: bennydorano on December 31, 2024, 09:08:16 PMNo idea what the GPA were thinking, but more importantly they should have been told to step back by the GAA, the tail should never wag the dog. Only a f**king idiot couldn't see the pre season comps were needed more than ever in January.
Couldn't agree more. I don't know anyone with the exception of 1 poster in here who thinks it's a good idea. Every county will now have 2 or 3 January challenge matches arranged.
The only thing I can think of is , maybe if the Jan competitions went ahead, there was more chance of numbers complaining if the rules clearly weren't working.
Now, there's no Jan comps, straight to league , then straight to championship, little opportunity to pencil in an emergency CCCCCCCCCCCC meeting, so no chance any of them will be dropped .
They were really determined early on to get these rules passed. Reminded me a bit like the Tories and their legacy bill
Quote from: PMG1 on October 28, 2024, 11:07:26 AMQuote from: thewobbler on October 28, 2024, 10:56:36 AMApologies by £50 was flippant.
It turns out the average grant is €3,891 or about £3,300.
Call me flippant again, I don't mind. Buy when clubs are budgeting for their 6 and 7 figure developments, that £3,300 doesn't really play a role in the decision making process.
Of course free money is nice. But the emotive suggestion previous was that no McKenna Cup will harm club's development plans. It won't. It won't even register.
a club doing a large development will end up getting c€20-25k from Ulster Council
Since when?
We did a major development 6, 7 years ago and we'd to jump through some serious hoops, finances reviewed face to face with Ulster Council officials in Armagh, went over previous years finance etc etc before we would be given the green light.
At the end of that process one of our team asked what grants would be available from the very same Ulster Council and she was told there were none available!
We hadn't factored them into the plan anyway, so they didn't disappoint.
They have offered drainage grants which we've availed off since, but it's a pittance.
I think that the McKenna cup would have raised some money from people who were happy to pay the money in and wherever that was spent then it would have done some good. It would have allowed some kids are free games before the league. For instance, in Armagh there would be children who did make it to the AI final, who might not make it to Galway but could be brought along to a McKenna cup game.
However, had games been scheduled this weekend they might have had problems with the weather anyhow.
Got rid of the McKenna Cup and other cups to protect player burn out, and they all off playing friendlies now. Looks kinda stupid now.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 05, 2025, 12:31:06 AMGot rid of the McKenna Cup and other cups to protect player burn out, and they all off playing friendlies now. Looks kinda stupid now.
Stevie Wonder could see that coming.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 05, 2025, 12:31:06 AMGot rid of the McKenna Cup and other cups to protect player burn out, and they all off playing friendlies now. Looks kinda stupid now.
Yeah but now the onus is on the individual counties to protect player burn out rather than the provincial councils or HQ.
It's purely a box ticking exercise that serves no real purpose.
Seriously missed the McKenna Cup this year as it was always a great start to the year to get an early Jan county game or two.
Fault lies with GPA who advocated for this. If they'd brains ..
They have only vote at CC ;)
Hardly going to oppose apparent wish of the players as voiced by GPA... now running looking challenge games.. clowns
https://www.gaelicplayers.com/gpa-statement-on-pre-season-competitions-finances-being-prioritised-over-player-welfare/#:~:text=Welfare%20Supports-,GPA%20statement%20on%20pre%2Dseason%20competitions%3A%20Finances,being%20prioritised%20over%20Player%20Welfare&text=The%20Gaelic%20Players%20Association%20(GPA,as%20proposed%20by%20Cavan%20GAA.
Gimps
The GPA in particular, like Croke Park, has showed no balls in addressing authoritative fball managers who do what they want. Are players over trained, certainly, and they not see that, to later life. Why do players have to train in November,? They don't. Why get rid of pre league fixtures if counties are just going to arrange friendlies. Maybe players should bck the GPA or they just a paper tiger. Bring in heavy fines for counties flouting the rules. Too many managers think they can do what they want these days, as the repercussions are piss.