What aspects of the State in the North are annoying to nationalists?
What aspects of the South are attractive ?
What aspects of the south are not attractive ?
Quote from: seafoid on August 20, 2024, 09:59:59 AMWhat aspects of the south are not attractive ?
Southerners.
Love the Cork accent, especially the cailíní when they talk. A great accent.
Great people in the south. 99%, like anywhere. Friendly, good craic and helpful.
Quote from: marty34 on August 20, 2024, 11:28:54 AMLove the Cork accent, especially the cailíní when they talk. A great accent.
Great people in the south. 99%, like anywhere. Friendly, good craic and helpful.
Can't think of the Cork accent without thinking of this
Quote from: seafoid on August 20, 2024, 09:59:59 AMWhat aspects of the State in the North are annoying to nationalists?
What aspects of the South are attractive ?
What aspects of the south are not attractive ?
What's the south when Donegal happens to be more north than any county on this island?
Free
There's an awful lot of arselicking of the British monarchy from free staters, disturbing so it is
Quote from: Brendan on August 20, 2024, 06:13:15 PMThere's an awful lot of arselicking of the British monarchy from free staters, disturbing so it is
I'd argue there are alot more northerners that are Royalists than southerners.
Attractive - more business friendly, less of a civil service heavy, public sector overburdened failure of a state than the north. Wages are higher, society is more outward looking and less insular. Also less sectarian. People are less entitled when it comes to healthcare. There is nowhere near the same culture of expecting everything for free all of the time.
Unattractive - nobody seems to know what potato bread is. Their attitude at times towards the north, their digs about being less Irish etc.
Always loved crossing the border. The south felt more free and less uptight than the north. (My mates used to do this strange thing of taking their seatbelts off as soon as they got into the south because they knew it wasn't going to be enforced because there would be no checkpoints. I doubt if they'd do it now.) You could fly your own flag without worrying what the RUC was going to think of it. You could go out and do stuff on a Sunday without certain people looking at you with disapproval for not wearing a suit or sitting in a church all morning or afternoon. You could fly your GAA flag from the car without worrying about getting bricked if you passed through the likes of Portadown.
I also prefer to listen to southerners talking. I find it a bit jarring to hear my own accent on TV, but that's probably similar to how people don't like to hear their own voice played back in a recording because it sounds different from how they hear themselves in normal speech.
This is a small detail but in the late 1980s I seem to remember the public payphones in the south were push-button tone phones, while in the north is was still analogue rotary phones. For me that was one of the first signs that something was happening in the south's economy.
Prior to the 1990s we'd resign ourselves to a pothole-infested road starting at the border, but now it's reversed with better roads and infrastructure in the south. You fly out of Dublin airport and you get the feel of being in a cosmopolitan, decent sized, European city. You don't get that feeling when flying out of Aldergrove which feels like a small regional airport.
In short, as a northerner I've always been fond of the south and always had a great time when visiting, but these days I admire it for how far it's come in such a short period of time.
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 20, 2024, 06:49:50 PMQuote from: Brendan on August 20, 2024, 06:13:15 PMThere's an awful lot of arselicking of the British monarchy from free staters, disturbing so it is
I'd argue there are alot more northerners that are Royalists than southerners.
Only by the Northerners who class themselves as British, sickens me seeing the Union Flag rolled out in Galway, Dublin etc to welcome Charlie Windsor, if it was in some sort of official capacity I wouldn't mind but the ordinary folk in the street waving them is too far
Dare I bring up the dreaded 'T' word.....Tayto?
In my experience, there seems to be a serious amount of children in the south with British royalty type first names. Lots of Georges, Williams, Harrys , Henrys etc.
You wouldn't tend to see that as much with northern Catholics , and you would tend to see more Irish names as well
Quote from: AustinPowers on August 20, 2024, 09:49:43 PMIn my experience, there seems to be a serious amount of children in the south with British royalty type first names. Lots of Georges, Williams, Harrys , Henrys etc.
You wouldn't tend to see that as much with northern Catholics , and you would tend to see more Irish names as well
That's a fair point. The amount of William's, George's and Billy's is shocking.
Less litter in the south. Much more pride in their communities. In the north half (or all) your town or village might wrap themselves in the butchers apron half the year, so it's hard to generate that sense of civic pride.
Quote from: AustinPowers on August 20, 2024, 09:49:43 PMIn my experience, there seems to be a serious amount of children in the south with British royalty type first names. Lots of Georges, Williams, Harrys , Henrys etc.
You wouldn't tend to see that as much with northern Catholics , and you would tend to see more Irish names as well
Is there any evidence of that whatsoever ffs. What exact "experience" would you have then? In my ten years living in Dublin, I can safely say the number of Georges, Williams and Henrys I encountered in college, work and socially could be counted on one hand.
There are Harrys galore all over the Catholic north ffs, and have been for generations, which, despite your ridiculous and thinly veiled insinuations, is nothing to do with Jimmy Hewett's boy.
Think you need to re-read the first three words of his post there Gallsman.
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 20, 2024, 06:56:40 PMUnattractive - nobody seems to know what potato bread is.
Loathe as I am to wade into a controversial topic like "The Fry", certainly in west of Ireland no fry ever had potato bread or soda farls. What is all that about? The Ulster Fry to certain people seems to be the sine qua non of the fry with this extra thing. I don't know. Think I'd rather have an extra rasher on the plate. For fried potato pancake stick with the auld Boxty.
https://visual.cso.ie/?body=entity/babynames
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/life/northern-irelands-most-popular-baby-names-revealed/a1667276353.html
Very similar in the respect of anglicised names!
Really? Of those names, I've only ever heard of a William, oncel in my Proddy primary school.
Quote from: Snapchap on August 20, 2024, 11:34:28 PMThink you need to re-read the first three words of his post there Gallsman.
No I'm grand, thanks. I'm questioning his "experience" and calling bullshit on it.
Quote from: gallsman on August 21, 2024, 06:08:59 AMQuote from: Snapchap on August 20, 2024, 11:34:28 PMThink you need to re-read the first three words of his post there Gallsman.
No I'm grand, thanks. I'm questioning his "experience" and calling bullshit on it.
My apologies.
Ok could everyone except gallsman desist from discussing their personal opinions based on their own experiences on this discussion forum please? Only his experiences can actually have been experienced. Thank you all for your co-operation.
Quote from: weareros on August 20, 2024, 11:50:40 PMQuote from: RedHand88 on August 20, 2024, 06:56:40 PMUnattractive - nobody seems to know what potato bread is.
Loathe as I am to wade into a controversial topic like "The Fry", certainly in west of Ireland no fry ever had potato bread or soda farls. What is all that about? The Ulster Fry to certain people seems to be the sine qua non of the fry with this extra thing. I don't know. Think I'd rather have an extra rasher on the plate. For fried potato pancake stick with the auld Boxty.
Have to disagree, boxty just not the same
Boxty and spudcakes both grand.
But I wouldn't fancy them every day of the week.
Quote from: gallsman on August 21, 2024, 06:08:59 AMQuote from: Snapchap on August 20, 2024, 11:34:28 PMThink you need to re-read the first three words of his post there Gallsman.
No I'm grand, thanks. I'm questioning his "experience" and calling bullshit on it.
Jesus is there anything more annoying than that. If its his experience then it's his experience. It's probably a tiny sample size and not accurate in terms of the wider population but that doesn't mean he's made it up ffs
Quote from: Armagh18 on August 21, 2024, 09:07:27 AMQuote from: gallsman on August 21, 2024, 06:08:59 AMQuote from: Snapchap on August 20, 2024, 11:34:28 PMThink you need to re-read the first three words of his post there Gallsman.
No I'm grand, thanks. I'm questioning his "experience" and calling bullshit on it.
Jesus is there anything more annoying than that. If its his experience then it's his experience. It's probably a tiny sample size and not accurate in terms of the wider population but that doesn't mean he's made it up ffs
Methinks Gallsman doesn't like the subject matter of the post and tries to deflect.
Bit paranoid.
;D ;D ;D ;D
Incredible stuff. Paranoid about what?! The mass hordes of secret British loyalists in the South because of the names they (don't) have?!
I thought we were supposed to be North men South men comrades all. Nationalists for so long were not seen as equals in the North and now it seems like we are not seen as equals with the rest of the people on this island. Very disappointing thread.
Quote from: Brendan on August 20, 2024, 06:13:15 PMThere's an awful lot of arselicking of the British monarchy from free staters, disturbing so it is
All international celebs get fawned over - Hollywood actors, music stars, world leaders, often to an embarrassing level.
Charles, Camilla, William, Kate Middleton, Meghan, et al. are seen as Hello magazine A-listers and not the puppet masters and string pullers of an occupation.
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 21, 2024, 11:37:46 AMQuote from: Brendan on August 20, 2024, 06:13:15 PMThere's an awful lot of arselicking of the British monarchy from free staters, disturbing so it is
All international celebs get fawned over - Hollywood actors, music stars, world leaders, often to an embarrassing level.
Charles, Camilla, William, Kate Middleton, Meghan, et al. are seen as Hello magazine A-listers and not the puppet masters and string pullers of an occupation.
They're symbolic of the occupation though
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 21, 2024, 09:43:41 AMI thought we were supposed to be North men South men comrades all. Nationalists for so long were not seen as equals in the North and now it seems like we are not seen as equals with the rest of the people on this island. Very disappointing thread.
Uh, it's how northerners perceive southerners, not how southerners perceive northerners? Or you think there should be no distinction, or what?
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 21, 2024, 09:43:41 AMI thought we were supposed to be North men South men comrades all. Nationalists for so long were not seen as equals in the North and now it seems like we are not seen as equals with the rest of the people on this island. Very disappointing thread.
We are the same but partition is a fact. We done own how long it will last. There was a story during the PlOlympics about RTÉ being unable to broadcast in the North because of tv rights. Is access to RTÉ important? Does the Angekus have any resonance? Does 6 county teans winning all Irelands generate interest outside the 6 counties?
Rte access in Olympics was a big thing seafoid. The focus was on British athletes where we had to watch it and you couldn't see interviews with Irish athletes or even some of them competing.
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 21, 2024, 12:33:32 PMRte access in Olympics was a big thing seafoid. The focus was on British athletes where we had to watch it and you couldn't see interviews with Irish athletes or even some of them competing.
Very true there Tommy, and the time TV3/Virgin Media or whatever they were called at the time, had access to the AI championship games yet wasn't available in large parts of the North was a stain on the GAA.
Mr Burns better be careful with who wins the rights next time.
Quote from: burdizzo on August 21, 2024, 12:16:13 PMQuote from: 93-DY-SAM on August 21, 2024, 09:43:41 AMI thought we were supposed to be North men South men comrades all. Nationalists for so long were not seen as equals in the North and now it seems like we are not seen as equals with the rest of the people on this island. Very disappointing thread.
Uh, it's how northerners perceive southerners, not how southerners perceive northerners? Or you think there should be no distinction, or what?
In terms of mindset there should be no distinction. No different than anyone from Donegal to Cork or Louth to Wexford. But yes the island is partitioned and there are practical differences because of that such as the RTE thing.
Quote from: seafoid on August 20, 2024, 09:59:59 AMWhat aspects of the State in the North are annoying to nationalists?
What aspects of the South are attractive ?
What aspects of the south are not attractive ?
What aspects of the State in the North are annoying to nationalists?The use of "Ireland" to mean the 26 counties only. Nordies may not be part of the state but we're part of the nation.
What aspects of the South are attractive ?People are good craic and despite the myth, in my experience, are generally pretty well disposed to northerners. Good business environment, good roads and infrastructure (compared to the north).
What aspects of the south are not attractive ?FF and FG, the Healy Raes, what Dunphy called "Official Ireland"
Quote from: Pub Bore on August 21, 2024, 05:05:08 PMQuote from: seafoid on August 20, 2024, 09:59:59 AMWhat aspects of the State in the North are annoying to nationalists?
What aspects of the South are attractive ?
What aspects of the south are not attractive ?
What aspects of the State in the North are annoying to nationalists?
The use of "Ireland" to mean the 26 counties only. Nordies may not be part of the state but we're part of the nation.
What aspects of the South are attractive ?
People are good craic and despite the myth, in my experience, are generally pretty well disposed to northerners. Good business environment, good roads and infrastructure (compared to the north).
What aspects of the south are not attractive ?
FF and FG, the Healy Raes, what Dunphy called "Official Ireland"
That would be the biggest issue for a lot of people
I would tune into Newstalk sometimes to try to get some vibe on what's happening in the freestate.
Partly that and partly because I cannot listen to anything on Radio Ulster.
Things that have occurred to me over the years. None of which are necessarily true, but struck my mind.
The main one is that Newstalk (and therefore, I assume its listeners) are bizarrely overfascinated with American politics, to the point that Ireland might just be an offshoot of the US. I just don't that get that one myself. America is fundamentally broken. It's a model we should be avoiding.
The second one is that Newstalk (and therefore I assume its listeners) know very well that the two party political system is failing Ireland, to the point that urban Ireland doesn't really have an identity anymore. Pretty much any large Irish town could be swapped with any English town and nobody would notice. The housing crisis (and it is a crisis) will never resolve itself under these political structures, because the personal gains for politicians (from being multiple property owners, from subtle and less subtle bribes and kickbacks), are too entwined with keeping this ball a rolling. But Newstalk (and I assume its listeners) prefer this political situation over trying something different that might just be better.
I suppose what I'm heading towards here is that Ireland had a chance to forge its own identity in this world. To be unique. Maybe to be brilliant. But it seems so utterly influenced by its shitty neighbours left and right, that it is now just the same. Maybe with a healthier balance sheet at the moment, but just the same.
Us up north don't have the luxury of plotting our own course in the world. I doubt we'd do it much different if presented the chance either. But given the choice I'd live to see Ireland a country with a slower pace of life, and a greater focus on community and family. Being de facto slaves to money and material dreams; that wasn't Ireland's calling.
I'm meandering so I'll stop.
Good points wobbler
One thing I've noticed, as you said, is towns all looking the same. Not only in Ireland and Britain, but Europe and further afield. All you see is Starbucks, McDonald's, nandos, and countless other multinational munching shops.
The world has been commercialised to death by these f€ckers.
A year or two ago, there was a video going around where dozens of cars were queuing and tooting at a doughnut drive thru place at 3 or 4 in the morning. Quality and prices at independent cafes/fast food outlets might be so much better around the corner but people seem to flock to these cnuts.
I get this is only a small issue compared to housing and the likes , but it's worth mentioning
PS. Maybe some one can confirm this , but there is somewhere in Australia (Melbourne possibly), where they shun the likes of Starbucks, Nandos in favour of supporting the local outlets. It would be good to see more of that
Quote from: AustinPowers on August 21, 2024, 06:29:18 PMQuote from: Pub Bore on August 21, 2024, 05:05:08 PMQuote from: seafoid on August 20, 2024, 09:59:59 AMWhat aspects of the State in the North are annoying to nationalists?
What aspects of the South are attractive ?
What aspects of the south are not attractive ?
What aspects of the State in the North are annoying to nationalists?
The use of "Ireland" to mean the 26 counties only. Nordies may not be part of the state but we're part of the nation.
What aspects of the South are attractive ?
People are good craic and despite the myth, in my experience, are generally pretty well disposed to northerners. Good business environment, good roads and infrastructure (compared to the north).
What aspects of the south are not attractive ?
FF and FG, the Healy Raes, what Dunphy called "Official Ireland"
That would be the biggest issue for a lot of people
Quote from: AustinPowers on August 21, 2024, 06:29:18 PMQuote from: Pub Bore on August 21, 2024, 05:05:08 PMQuote from: seafoid on August 20, 2024, 09:59:59 AMWhat aspects of the State in the North are annoying to nationalists?
What aspects of the South are attractive ?
What aspects of the south are not attractive ?
What aspects of the State in the North are annoying to nationalists?
The use of "Ireland" to mean the 26 counties only. Nordies may not be part of the state but we're part of the nation.
What aspects of the South are attractive ?
People are good craic and despite the myth, in my experience, are generally pretty well disposed to northerners. Good business environment, good roads and infrastructure (compared to the north).
What aspects of the south are not attractive ?
FF and FG, the Healy Raes, what Dunphy called "Official Ireland"
That would be the biggest issue for a lot of people
Quote from: AustinPowers on August 21, 2024, 06:29:18 PMQuote from: Pub Bore on August 21, 2024, 05:05:08 PMQuote from: seafoid on August 20, 2024, 09:59:59 AMWhat aspects of the State in the North are annoying to nationalists?
What aspects of the South are attractive ?
What aspects of the south are not attractive ?
What aspects of the State in the North are annoying to nationalists?
The use of "Ireland" to mean the 26 counties only. Nordies may not be part of the state but we're part of the nation.
What aspects of the South are attractive ?
People are good craic and despite the myth, in my experience, are generally pretty well disposed to northerners. Good business environment, good roads and infrastructure (compared to the north).
What aspects of the south are not attractive ?
FF and FG, the Healy Raes, what Dunphy called "Official Ireland"
That would be the biggest issue for a lot of people
Who do ye want us to vote for?
Shinners presumably?
To kind of answer that one Ross.
I've never voted for Sinn Fein in my life. Not even tactically. I just don't like their approach to elections, scaremongering and tub thumping.
That said voting up here was always a charade and is now little more than a census by another name.
If my vote actually meant something beyond that - which it would if I moved a couple of miles down the road - I'd likely consider voting for them. Because they would seem to be less worse than what's there.
Both Sinn Fein and Ireland froze in the most recent elections, at least that's how I read it. The fear of change is very very real. I guess Irish people - or the majority of them anyhow - kind of like the English way of life, so long as they're not directly under English rule. Certainly there's tens of thousands of them couldn't wait to take on the role of unjust landlord.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 21, 2024, 06:57:23 PMI would tune into Newstalk sometimes to try to get some vibe on what's happening in the freestate.
Partly that and partly because I cannot listen to anything on Radio Ulster.
Things that have occurred to me over the years. None of which are necessarily true, but struck my mind.
The main one is that Newstalk (and therefore, I assume its listeners) are bizarrely overfascinated with American politics, to the point that Ireland might just be an offshoot of the US. I just don't that get that one myself. America is fundamentally broken. It's a model we should be avoiding.
The second one is that Newstalk (and therefore I assume its listeners) know very well that the two party political system is failing Ireland, to the point that urban Ireland doesn't really have an identity anymore. Pretty much any large Irish town could be swapped with any English town and nobody would notice. The housing crisis (and it is a crisis) will never resolve itself under these political structures, because the personal gains for politicians (from being multiple property owners, from subtle and less subtle bribes and kickbacks), are too entwined with keeping this ball a rolling. But Newstalk (and I assume its listeners) prefer this political situation over trying something different that might just be better.
I suppose what I'm heading towards here is that Ireland had a chance to forge its own identity in this world. To be unique. Maybe to be brilliant. But it seems so utterly influenced by its shitty neighbours left and right, that it is now just the same. Maybe with a healthier balance sheet at the moment, but just the same.
Us up north don't have the luxury of plotting our own course in the world. I doubt we'd do it much different if presented the chance either. But given the choice I'd live to see Ireland a country with a slower pace of life, and a greater focus on community and family. Being de facto slaves to money and material dreams; that wasn't Ireland's calling.
I'm meandering so I'll stop.
I have a microsoft account on my computer so I get Irish
celebrity news when I open a new tab.It is appalling. Class Z selebrities give their news. It's all arseways but it is linked to the economic system and it will change when the economic system changes. The Republic has 2 economies. One is the multinational one and the other is where most of the people live and work.
The Civil war was fought between FG types and nationalists who imagined a different type of country, including the North . Maybe we will get that next time. House prices have to collapse first.
Some shite on here. The days of Aran jumpers and pints of porter are long gone lads. More boys in the south drinking Heineken and watching Man United.
I remember when I worked in DUblin hearing a colleague say that the North was a separate country and I couldn't get my head around it . At the time the Troubles were in the news all the time.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 21, 2024, 10:12:28 PMSome shite on here. The days of Aran jumpers and pints of porter are long gone lads. More boys in the south drinking Heineken and watching Man United.
That sort of sums it up for me and not in a good way.
I'm creeping up on 50 years old. I'd say if I get to life expectancy, I might see a United Ireland.
My kids will definitely see it.
But it'll bring a civil uprising from the PUL community . Maybe even a short civil war. And f**k knows how long if integration processes and bargaining between soft unionists/nationalists and Dublin.
And I'm wondering if it'll be worth the effort. We will all end up under the one flag. But it won't be Ireland we end up with. It won't be the "Aran jumpers and pints of stout" ireland obviously. Not that I want that. But it just won't be any better for anyone. Apart from those who've been smart/greedy enough to jump on the property and interrelated wealth bandwagon that has come in from the US and Uk.
We will just be England under a different name.
Is it wrong to want something else?
No, I think it's good. We'd possibly disagree on exactly WHAT else (I'd have a more nativist approach!) but we do seen stuck in the middle of the Anglosphere - as you say, Britain to one side and the US to the other - sort of trying to pretend we're not there, yet unable to escape it. I always aspired to the nationalist goal of united Ireland, but am now also beginning to think - what's the point?
Quote from: seafoid on August 21, 2024, 10:28:37 PMI remember when I worked in DUblin hearing a colleague say that the North was a separate country and I couldn't get my head around it . At the time the Troubles were in the news all the time.
Time to trot out the Ian Rush quote. Does it need pointed out it is a different country? Theres more that unites us than divides us (or used to be) but it's always felt that way to me tbh. I don't expect to see a United Ireland, not sure my kids will either, I just don't see where the momentum comes from, genuine discussion about it (by people that matter) is paid lip service, shut down or kicked down the road at every turn. SF imploding in ROI won't help.
I think the people up North are more hardened and take less sh1t and I mean that from like being told what to do. Covid is a great example. Down south everyone adhered to the Government's rules whereas up North it was no way near as strict and a lot of people just refused to wear masks and stupid stuff like that. I mean that in a way that Northerners are far more likely to rebel against something than Southerners...(this doesn't mean I'm proud of this BTW).
Take the tents around Dublin canal for example...them tents wouldn't last 20 mins up here...again i'm not condoning anything here just stating what would more than likely happen, Northerners have obviously had a tougher upbringing due to the troubles and treated like second class citizens most of their lives and anything they ever achieved they had to work ten times harder for it than down South but things will and are changing as the new generation come along who have not experienced this "get to the back of the bus" sh1t from our neighbours up here. I suppose almost all of the racist attacks seems to come from the Unionist community who are a lot more racist than the nationalist community and these incidents currently on the news are all from the Unionist communities but I suppose they're still Northerners...
Being from the northern part of the country but living in the south, I know of a lot of things that are different. Good and bad.
Let's start with the bad in the south. Cost of living and yes we get paid more but not enough more to justify house prices and the massive VRT on cars. A 20k gbp vw Tourag in the North would cost well over 45k euro in the south. Houses prob 3 times difference in most areas.
I live in Dublin so I will speak for that area , people aren't as friendly. And a lot they tend to treat northerners as brits. Some even call the North the UK.(red rag to a bull) ;D
Bar Dublin city centre, oconnell st area., the south is a much cleaner place. When I'm home I notice the rubbish along country roads as if people still throw it out car windows. That doesn't happen in south.
The roads are better.
Politicians are cringe in south.
Bar staff are rubbish, 1 order at a time.
Rugby love in and the slagging off Gaelic football pisses me off.
I've been called a brit alot of times.
At a gaa match in Wicklow I was once called an orange bastard, im well used to it so i couldnt care less its a lack of education. I find the south ignored the troubles and they don't have a clue what went on or even care. Much like in England.
And a large % don't really want the North back. I'd fear a referendum would fail down here quicker than it would in the 6 counties.
All my opinion you may differ but I see both sides.
Most controversially I find Tandragee Tayto kicks the arse off freestayto. My kids agree and they're all Dubs.
And Guinness in Dublin is sh1t compared to the real Ireland outside the city limits.
There's much to admire about the 26 counties, far from perfect as is anywhere, but at least those you elect are the decision makers, that's not the case in the North.
I still think there's a lot more to be done in the South in terms of decentralising the economy away from the Greater Dublin area which is a big part of the housing crisis in that area and that's coming from someone who works for a company whose European offices are in Cork City.
As for the North, we're in the death spiral....
The Stormont assembly is a talking shop and it's structured in such a way any real changes that need to happen to the likes of Education and Health won't happen as it would need cross party support and that'll never happen.
It was set up that way to prevent the biggest tribe from dominating all the decisions as was the way for the majority of the place since it's inception, but in putting in these safeguards substantive change cannot happen.
UK Gov's don't give a shít and why would they. If only one of their leaders would have the balls to come out and say, "look it's almost inevitable that Northern Ireland will be re-integrated back into a single Irish entity" then we can get on with making plans for this place and improve everyone's lives.
Quote from: snoopdog on August 22, 2024, 10:16:37 AMBeing from the northern part of the country but living in the south, I know of a lot of things that are different. Good and bad.
Let's start with the bad in the south. Cost of living and yes we get paid more but not enough more to justify house prices and the massive VRT on cars. A 20k gbp vw Tourag in the North would cost well over 45k euro in the south. Houses prob 3 times difference in most areas.
I live in Dublin so I will speak for that area , people aren't as friendly. And a lot they tend to treat northerners as brits. Some even call the North the UK.(red rag to a bull) ;D
Bar Dublin city centre, oconnell st area., the south is a much cleaner place. When I'm home I notice the rubbish along country roads as if people still throw it out car windows. That doesn't happen in south.
The roads are better.
Politicians are cringe in south.
Bar staff are rubbish, 1 order at a time.
Rugby love in and the slagging off Gaelic football pisses me off.
I've been called a brit alot of times.
At a gaa match in Wicklow I was once called an orange bastard, im well used to it so i couldnt care less its a lack of education. I find the south ignored the troubles and they don't have a clue what went on or even care. Much like in England.
And a large % don't really want the North back. I'd fear a referendum would fail down here quicker than it would in the 6 counties.
All my opinion you may differ but I see both sides.
Most controversially I find Tandragee Tayto kicks the arse off freestayto. My kids agree and they're all Dubs.
And Guinness in Dublin is sh1t compared to the real Ireland outside the city limits.
They do. Pricks.
Quote from: illdecide on August 22, 2024, 09:43:26 AMI think the people up North are more hardened and take less sh1t and I mean that from like being told what to do. Covid is a great example. Down south everyone adhered to the Government's rules whereas up North it was no way near as strict and a lot of people just refused to wear masks and stupid stuff like that. I mean that in a way that Northerners are far more likely to rebel against something than Southerners...(this doesn't mean I'm proud of this BTW).
And of course all this individuality meant that more people died of Covid.
Quote from: snoopdog on August 22, 2024, 10:16:37 AMMost controversially I find Tandragee Tayto kicks the arse off freestayto. My kids agree and they're all Dubs.
Armagh > Meath.
Quote from: Truthsayer on August 22, 2024, 10:47:42 AMThat's it.. I know a number of people didn't heed that 'Covid nonsense' who are in the boneyard now... others who did who alas also died through Covid. Think id rather be the lily lívered still walking this earth after heeding medical experts and not social media conspiracy theorists.
The point is not that ignoring the advice will kill you, that is your business, although other members of your family might not agree. However, the problem with spreading Covid was that it could kill someone else that you don't know and whose life you are not entitled to make a decision about.
I didn't want to start a debate about Covid as I know it would be controversial I just wanted to state that people up North didn't and mostly don't do what they're told and will regularly break the rules a lot more than our Southern brothers. I was using Covid as an example...not if i agreed with it or not.
I think alot more of us up in the north are now looking at the south and seeing what the benefits of being in the EU are really like. The British will only fund this place to the bear minimum as there are no real returns to be gained. Casement park will be a good example of this, just watch how the politics play out on this one.
Take for example the farming industry, in the south they have well funded grant schemes running where as up here there are a 1 or 2 schemes running but the amount of red tape just doesn't make them worth while.
The sooner we get away from they claws of the British the better, its only then can this place flourish.
Quote from: illdecide on August 22, 2024, 11:06:54 AMI didn't want to start a debate about Covid as I know it would be controversial I just wanted to state that people up North didn't and mostly don't do what they're told and will regularly break the rules a lot more than our Southern brothers. I was using Covid as an example...not if i agreed with it or not.
You did say "wear masks and stupid stuff like that" ... anyway we'll move on and agree to disagree...
Quote from: Truthsayer on August 22, 2024, 11:16:56 AMQuote from: illdecide on August 22, 2024, 11:06:54 AMI didn't want to start a debate about Covid as I know it would be controversial I just wanted to state that people up North didn't and mostly don't do what they're told and will regularly break the rules a lot more than our Southern brothers. I was using Covid as an example...not if i agreed with it or not.
You did say "wear masks and stupid stuff like that" ... anyway we'll move on and agree to disagree...
Fair enough...didn't realise i'd typed that...sorry.
Quote from: illdecide on August 22, 2024, 11:31:44 AMQuote from: Truthsayer on August 22, 2024, 11:16:56 AMQuote from: illdecide on August 22, 2024, 11:06:54 AMI didn't want to start a debate about Covid as I know it would be controversial I just wanted to state that people up North didn't and mostly don't do what they're told and will regularly break the rules a lot more than our Southern brothers. I was using Covid as an example...not if i agreed with it or not.
You did say "wear masks and stupid stuff like that" ... anyway we'll move on and agree to disagree...
Fair enough...didn't realise i'd typed that...sorry.
Don't need to apologise to me. We'll soldier on : )
More people in the south don't know how to drive on Motorways.
Quote from: Minus15 on August 22, 2024, 01:34:10 PMMore people in the south don't know how to drive on Motorways.
Driving one motorways is the simplest form of driving, you could hardly fail not to know it. What you mean is that many selfish c***ts suit themselves whatever the effect on everyone else.
Quote from: armaghniac on August 22, 2024, 03:03:37 PMQuote from: Minus15 on August 22, 2024, 01:34:10 PMMore people in the south don't know how to drive on Motorways.
Driving one motorways is the simplest form of driving, you could hardly fail not to know it. What you mean is that many selfish c***ts suit themselves whatever the effect on everyone else.
Some genuinely don't know how to use the lanes.
I've seen people merging onto to motorway and veer straight across to the middle lane and sit there, even though there's nothing ahead of them on the inside lane.
Quote from: Tubberman on August 22, 2024, 05:11:21 PMQuote from: armaghniac on August 22, 2024, 03:03:37 PMQuote from: Minus15 on August 22, 2024, 01:34:10 PMMore people in the south don't know how to drive on Motorways.
Driving one motorways is the simplest form of driving, you could hardly fail not to know it. What you mean is that many selfish c***ts suit themselves whatever the effect on everyone else.
Some genuinely don't know how to use the lanes.
I've seen people merging onto to motorway and veer straight across to the middle lane and sit there, even though there's nothing ahead of them on the inside lane.
Again, you are taught to drive on the left, they just do that for their own convenience.
Quote from: Minus15 on August 22, 2024, 01:34:10 PMMore people in the south don't know how to drive on Motorways.
I quite liked the old N roads in the south where slower drivers would pull over to facilitate overtakes. Not the safest setup, but it seemed to promote a sense of cooperation among drivers.
Quote from: Minus15 on August 22, 2024, 01:34:10 PMMore people in the south don't know how to drive on Motorways.
Southerners 100% don't understand roundabouts. I think a lot of it is down the to the older generation being allowed to motor about for years without having passed their test.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 22, 2024, 06:11:41 PMQuote from: Minus15 on August 22, 2024, 01:34:10 PMMore people in the south don't know how to drive on Motorways.
I quite liked the old N roads in the south where slower drivers would pull over to facilitate overtakes. Not the safest setup, but it seemed to promote a sense of cooperation among drivers.
Does that not still happen? Most of my Free State driving is in Donegal so maybe its just them being behind the tomes as usual?
Quote from: Brendan on August 22, 2024, 08:28:31 PMQuote from: Eamonnca1 on August 22, 2024, 06:11:41 PMQuote from: Minus15 on August 22, 2024, 01:34:10 PMMore people in the south don't know how to drive on Motorways.
I quite liked the old N roads in the south where slower drivers would pull over to facilitate overtakes. Not the safest setup, but it seemed to promote a sense of cooperation among drivers.
Does that not still happen? Most of my Free State driving is in Donegal so maybe its just them being behind the tomes as usual?
Yeah, love that.
It still happens especially in wide roads in Donegal, say the main Derry to Letterkenny road. Although I'm always paranoid passing as I think they'll do a mad sverve out.
I think it's good manners but bit dodgy from the safety point of view.
Quote from: marty34 on August 22, 2024, 10:39:09 PMQuote from: Brendan on August 22, 2024, 08:28:31 PMQuote from: Eamonnca1 on August 22, 2024, 06:11:41 PMQuote from: Minus15 on August 22, 2024, 01:34:10 PMMore people in the south don't know how to drive on Motorways.
I quite liked the old N roads in the south where slower drivers would pull over to facilitate overtakes. Not the safest setup, but it seemed to promote a sense of cooperation among drivers.
Does that not still happen? Most of my Free State driving is in Donegal so maybe its just them being behind the tomes as usual?
Yeah, love that.
It still happens especially in wide roads in Donegal, say the main Derry to Letterkenny road. Although I'm always paranoid passing as I think they'll do a mad sverve out.
I think it's good manners but bit dodgy from the safety point of view.
Funny you mention that I had it on the Letterkenny to Derry road yesterday but ignored it, as you say I was wary of them pulling back out.
Quote from: marty34 on August 22, 2024, 10:39:09 PMQuote from: Brendan on August 22, 2024, 08:28:31 PMQuote from: Eamonnca1 on August 22, 2024, 06:11:41 PMQuote from: Minus15 on August 22, 2024, 01:34:10 PMMore people in the south don't know how to drive on Motorways.
I quite liked the old N roads in the south where slower drivers would pull over to facilitate overtakes. Not the safest setup, but it seemed to promote a sense of cooperation among drivers.
Does that not still happen? Most of my Free State driving is in Donegal so maybe its just them being behind the tomes as usual?
Yeah, love that.
It still happens especially in wide roads in Donegal, say the main Derry to Letterkenny road. Although I'm always paranoid passing as I think they'll do a mad sverve out.
I think it's good manners but bit dodgy from the safety point of view.
There are few single carriageway busy national primary roads left, routes to Galway, Limerick, Waterford etc have all been replaced by motorway.
I just need to nail the Tayto thing, Freestayto cheese & onion all the way, Nordietayto prawn cocktail and smokey bacon for other flavours.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0904/1468254-nhs-hse-northern-ireland/
I see the South as better infrastructure, better Health, more multi cultural, more laid back, more tolerant and much more wealthier.
I see the North as more bigotry/sectarian, more resilient, better footballer's & less diverse...Ohh & better Tayto
Quote from: illdecide on September 04, 2024, 03:05:15 PMI see the South as better infrastructure, better Health, more multi cultural, more laid back, more tolerant and much more wealthier.
I see the North as more bigotry/sectarian, more resilient, better footballer's & less diverse...Ohh & better Tayto
More tolerant??
These health care people know what they should do
https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0904/1468254-nhs-hse-northern-ireland/
There is a significant financial difference at that level of the profession too.
(Though the system in the north is completely fubared and it will start to have a fair difference on life expectancy etc over the next number of years)
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 05, 2024, 10:18:29 AMThere is a significant financial difference at that level of the profession too.
(Though the system in the north is completely fubared and it will start to have a fair difference on life expectancy etc over the next number of years)
There is a already a two year difference in life expectancy in favour of the South. Until 2005, it was the other way around and I think that some people still think that it would be the same way. Likewise, around 2005 the waiting lists in NI were under control,and they were worse in the 26 counties. Now the 26 county waiting lists are often unacceptable, but the ones in North as disastrous, but just get less publicity.
And if you were a nurse from the Philippines or somewhere, would working in Ballymena seem more appealing than Kilkenny?
The ones in the north have got publicity but not near enough. The system is very very broken up here. I would expect that life expectancy difference to grow. I don't see any kind of action or plan to address the health service. I don't know what they do tbh - it is that broken where do they even start.
Mad last paragraph.
If you were a nurse from the Philippines "or somewhere", would working in Carlow seem more appealing than working in Bangor?
Don't forget that if you happen to be a nurse from the Philippines, you can vouch for everywhere else from both there or "somewhere".
Quote from: thewobbler on September 05, 2024, 11:42:21 AMMad last paragraph.
If you were a nurse from the Philippines "or somewhere", would working in Carlow seem more appealing than working in Bangor?
Don't forget that if you happen to be a nurse from the Philippines, you can vouch for everywhere else from both there or "somewhere".
There is guy on SluggeroToole, a middle class Protestant in Bangor who has a Filipina wife,and he said that her friends were not at all impressed by the loyalist element. Word gets around.
Yeah I didn't understand why you had that question either ;D
There are two different issues there. 1 do you want to work in the NHS or HSE and 2 if you go to the north will you be subject to racism. Racism very prevalent everywhere these days it would seem but it does seem worse in the north. It also seems more prevalent in loyalist areas for whatever reason but I would say we have "our own" in places too.
Living into your 80's is overrated ;)
IT had a good article back in April of doctors moving to HSE for better pay and better work conditions. Behind a paid wall so posting below.
Health
'Northern Ireland is broken': how a 'toxic' culture and better pay is enticing North's doctors across the Border
Doctors in the North can earn two and a half times what they make with the NHS in the health service in the South
Dr Peter Maguire, from Newry, who works one or two days a week in St Luke's hospital in Rathgar, Dublin. Photograph: Dara Mac Dónaill
Seanín Graham's picture
Seanín Graham
Sun Apr 21 2024 - 06:00
When Peter Maguire works a shift at a hospital in Dublin, he earns as much in one day as he would in a week in Northern Ireland's NHS.
The anaesthetist quit his consultant's job in the North five years ago. A "toxic" NHS culture, Stormont's collapse and Brexit led to his decision. He began working part-time in the Republic.
"Best thing I ever did," he says of the move.
Maguire, who has 30 years' experience, is one of a growing number of senior doctors from the North who are working in locum and full-time posts in the South.
Oncologists, gynaecologists, radiologists and emergency department consultants are among those who have recently made the move, says a leading figure within the North's main doctors' union, the British Medical Association (BMA). Those taking up permanent positions can expect to more than double – and in some cases triple – their NHS salaries.
Some GPs, including those starting out in their careers, are also leaving. A workforce report published this week warned the profession was "struggling to the point of collapse" and demanded urgent action to prevent further departures.
"While the grass is not entirely greener in the Republic, if you speak to anyone there, it's probably not as frantic. They're not dealing with the fallout of the crumbling NHS," says Belfast GP Michael McKenna.
"Lots of junior GPs are making the move but we're also losing a lot of older consultants who are just fed up. The worrying thing is that half the GP trainees they're putting through in the North don't want to stay; they're training here and going back down South."
A GP starting out in the South would be earning "two-and-a-bit times" more than the same GP in the North, where the average salary is about £92,000 (€107,000), he says.
"We can't get anywhere near those salaries," says Alan Stout, co-chair of the BMA's GP committee.
"It's Enniskillen, it's Armagh ... it's those Border areas that doctors are leaving and [the money] makes it such an easy decision. It's no coincidence that those are the areas where we're struggling to recruit people".
Consultants in Northern Ireland have a starting salary of £88,000, which tops out at £118,00 for a 40-hour week. This compares with a baseline salary of €217,325-€261,051 in the South for a 37-hour week
Ireland is now third to Australia and New Zealand as the most popular destinations for UK doctors planning to practise elsewhere, according to the General Medical Council (GMC), the UK regulator for doctors.
For Northern doctors, who earn less than their British counterparts, the lure of enhanced pay packages in better staffed hospital departments is "super attractive", one senior medic said.
Consultants in Northern Ireland have a starting salary of £88,000 annually, which tops out at £118,00 for a 40-hour week. This compares with a baseline salary of €217,325 to €261,051 in the South for a 37-hour week under the Sláintecare contract introduced last year.
"Things are so much better and different in the South for consultants," says Maguire, who was based at Newry's Daisy Hill Hospital for 16 years.
"Only yesterday, I took the train down from Newry to Dublin and worked in St Luke's in Rathgar. I did my shift and came home and never found the work so satisfying in my life. It's what I trained to do, look after people.
"It's far better paid and there's far less bureaucracy."
Dr Peter Maguire at St Luke's hospital in Rathgar, Dublin. Photograph: Dara Mac Dónaill
After tax, he was earning around £4,500 a month from his NHS consultant job.
"I'm not comfortable talking about money but I was asked to go up to Letterkenny to cover for holidays last June and took home €9,600 for a week.
"Let's even park the money. When you can come home and say, 'Wasn't that a brilliant day's work?' I would never dream of returning to the NHS."
While no firm data exists on the number of medics from Northern Ireland working in the South, information provided to The Irish Times by the GMC is an indicator of what appears to be happening on the ground.
The regulator confirmed a spike in requests for a document that enables UK-based doctors to practise in the South; figures show the number of Certificate of Good Standing (CGS) applications rose from 507 in 2022 to 804 last year.
The GMC cautions that the requests "do not necessarily mean the doctor has definitely left the country – rather, it may show an intention". Of those who applied in 2023, 632 were still registered and licensed to practice in the UK.
Pay parity, staff shortages and the North's deteriorating health service – it has consistently recorded the highest NHS waiting lists over the past decade – are undoubtedly factors for those moving.
[ Striking junior doctors warn more medics will leave North's health service without pay riseOpens in new window ]
The impact of Brexit, Covid and a two-year political vacuum have also been felt, with junior doctors striking for the first time over pay last month.
Since Stormont's restoration in February, Northern Ireland's Health Minister Robin Swann has pledged to build the GP workforce and retain more experienced doctors.
But he has yet to stop the exodus.
Anne Carson is a consultant radiologist who left her NHS job after 25 years for locum work in Letterkenny and Portlaoise.
"I choose to go down South because as a senior radiologist walking into any NHS department in Northern Ireland, I would be flogged to death. That's the bottom line.
"There has been a complete reversal; it used to be the Southerners came up to work in the North and now it's very much the other way round because of terms and conditions and pay, and pressure of work."
Dr Anne Carson, consultant radiologist
However, Carson says it's "not all roses" for doctors in the South. "Southern consultants have their own issues and it can be very stressful for those in permanent jobs," she says.
"But Northern Ireland is broken. It's so broken I don't know what the answer is."
Asked if it was concerned about the movement south, the Department of Health confirmed that discussions were under way with consultants' representatives on pay issues.
The Northern Ireland health service continues to "actively recruit clinicians regionally, nationally and internationally", says a department spokesman.
"While a small number of medical staff may have chosen to take up work in the Republic of Ireland or other jurisdictions, it should also be acknowledged that our workforce across the health service continues to grow."
David Farren, chairman of the BMA consultants' committee in Northern Ireland, takes issue with the department's view, saying vacancy figures for consultants "tell a very different story" – there were 182 unfilled posts in September last year, an increase of 80 per cent since March 2017.
"Every consultant I chat to in a health trust in Northern Ireland is now telling me they know someone who is leaving to work in the South," says Farren, a consultant medical microbiologist at Antrim Area Hospital.
He has been inundated with calls from English colleagues asking "What it's like to live in Ireland?"
Dr David Farren: 'It wouldn't surprise me particularly if staff keep moving across the Border'
Some colleagues in Antrim have recently left for Dublin – and he says he was about to quit himself, but decided not to move for family reasons.
"We've lost a couple of radiologists, a couple of obstetrics and gynaecology consultants and there's a few people who have gone part-time, who are doing a few days a week in Antrim and a few in Dublin," he says.
Farren says he could earn double what he makes a week for a 37-hour week in the North "with no on-call". There are other benefits; he lives in Lisburn and has a 40-minute driving commute, but could be in Dublin in less than two hours on the train.
"I don't have to drive, I can work on the train or read a book or even do a crossword. Simple things like that," he says.
Northern doctors believe there could be more cross-Border health services, beyond cancer treatment and children's heart surgery that is already provided, if the trend continues.
"It wouldn't surprise me particularly if staff keep moving across the Border," says Farren.
Alan Stout believes "one of the biggest drivers towards an all-island health service" would be if "a large majority" of Northern Ireland's doctors end up working in the Republic.
"So if our doctors are in the South, we're going to end up having to share services anyway," he says.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 04, 2024, 05:56:27 PMQuote from: illdecide on September 04, 2024, 03:05:15 PMI see the South as better infrastructure, better Health, more multi cultural, more laid back, more tolerant and much more wealthier.
I see the North as more bigotry/sectarian, more resilient, better footballer's & less diverse...Ohh & better Tayto
More tolerant??
What I meant by that is the Mexicans are more willing to accept what the Government tells them whereas the Comanches up here don't really listen and do their own thing.
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 05, 2024, 11:55:01 AMYeah I didn't understand why you had that question either ;D
There are two different issues there. 1 do you want to work in the NHS or HSE and 2 if you go to the north will you be subject to racism. Racism very prevalent everywhere these days it would seem but it does seem worse in the north. It also seems more prevalent in loyalist areas for whatever reason but I would say we have "our own" in places too.
"our own" like this?
https://www.irishnews.com/news/northern-ireland/psni-to-meet-family-of-newry-care-home-worker-after-death-running-from-youths-BXJJVH4CPJHIZP6WYDIRO6M7HE/
Quote from: illdecide on September 05, 2024, 12:45:55 PMWhat I meant by that is the Mexicans are more willing to accept what the Government tells them whereas the Comanches up here don't really listen and do their own thing.
Not least because they elected the government.
We elect our Governments, ye lot get the Government England elects.
Being bolshie and into authority up there is a combination of 2 lots at semi war, the Apartheid State 1922 to 72 and thise awful aggressive accents*
*Fermanagh ok though, Sth Armagh and maybe South Down, not too bad.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 05, 2024, 12:52:10 PMWe elect our Governments, ye lot get the Government England elects.
Being bolshie and into authority up there is a combination of 2 lots at semi war, the Apartheid State 1922 to 72 and thise awful aggressive accents*
*Fermanagh ok though, Sth Armagh and maybe South Down, not too bad.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/English_dialects_in_Ulster_contrast.png/450px-English_dialects_in_Ulster_contrast.png)
Quote from: weareros on September 05, 2024, 12:43:21 PMIT had a good article back in April of doctors moving to HSE for better pay and better work conditions. Behind a paid wall so posting below.
Health
'Northern Ireland is broken': how a 'toxic' culture and better pay is enticing North's doctors across the Border
Doctors in the North can earn two and a half times what they make with the NHS in the health service in the South
Dr Peter Maguire, from Newry, who works one or two days a week in St Luke's hospital in Rathgar, Dublin. Photograph: Dara Mac Dónaill
Seanín Graham's picture
Seanín Graham
Sun Apr 21 2024 - 06:00
When Peter Maguire works a shift at a hospital in Dublin, he earns as much in one day as he would in a week in Northern Ireland's NHS.
The anaesthetist quit his consultant's job in the North five years ago. A "toxic" NHS culture, Stormont's collapse and Brexit led to his decision. He began working part-time in the Republic.
"Best thing I ever did," he says of the move.
Maguire, who has 30 years' experience, is one of a growing number of senior doctors from the North who are working in locum and full-time posts in the South.
Oncologists, gynaecologists, radiologists and emergency department consultants are among those who have recently made the move, says a leading figure within the North's main doctors' union, the British Medical Association (BMA). Those taking up permanent positions can expect to more than double – and in some cases triple – their NHS salaries.
Some GPs, including those starting out in their careers, are also leaving. A workforce report published this week warned the profession was "struggling to the point of collapse" and demanded urgent action to prevent further departures.
"While the grass is not entirely greener in the Republic, if you speak to anyone there, it's probably not as frantic. They're not dealing with the fallout of the crumbling NHS," says Belfast GP Michael McKenna.
"Lots of junior GPs are making the move but we're also losing a lot of older consultants who are just fed up. The worrying thing is that half the GP trainees they're putting through in the North don't want to stay; they're training here and going back down South."
A GP starting out in the South would be earning "two-and-a-bit times" more than the same GP in the North, where the average salary is about £92,000 (€107,000), he says.
"We can't get anywhere near those salaries," says Alan Stout, co-chair of the BMA's GP committee.
"It's Enniskillen, it's Armagh ... it's those Border areas that doctors are leaving and [the money] makes it such an easy decision. It's no coincidence that those are the areas where we're struggling to recruit people".
Consultants in Northern Ireland have a starting salary of £88,000, which tops out at £118,00 for a 40-hour week. This compares with a baseline salary of €217,325-€261,051 in the South for a 37-hour week
Ireland is now third to Australia and New Zealand as the most popular destinations for UK doctors planning to practise elsewhere, according to the General Medical Council (GMC), the UK regulator for doctors.
For Northern doctors, who earn less than their British counterparts, the lure of enhanced pay packages in better staffed hospital departments is "super attractive", one senior medic said.
Consultants in Northern Ireland have a starting salary of £88,000 annually, which tops out at £118,00 for a 40-hour week. This compares with a baseline salary of €217,325 to €261,051 in the South for a 37-hour week under the Sláintecare contract introduced last year.
"Things are so much better and different in the South for consultants," says Maguire, who was based at Newry's Daisy Hill Hospital for 16 years.
"Only yesterday, I took the train down from Newry to Dublin and worked in St Luke's in Rathgar. I did my shift and came home and never found the work so satisfying in my life. It's what I trained to do, look after people.
"It's far better paid and there's far less bureaucracy."
Dr Peter Maguire at St Luke's hospital in Rathgar, Dublin. Photograph: Dara Mac Dónaill
After tax, he was earning around £4,500 a month from his NHS consultant job.
"I'm not comfortable talking about money but I was asked to go up to Letterkenny to cover for holidays last June and took home €9,600 for a week.
"Let's even park the money. When you can come home and say, 'Wasn't that a brilliant day's work?' I would never dream of returning to the NHS."
While no firm data exists on the number of medics from Northern Ireland working in the South, information provided to The Irish Times by the GMC is an indicator of what appears to be happening on the ground.
The regulator confirmed a spike in requests for a document that enables UK-based doctors to practise in the South; figures show the number of Certificate of Good Standing (CGS) applications rose from 507 in 2022 to 804 last year.
The GMC cautions that the requests "do not necessarily mean the doctor has definitely left the country – rather, it may show an intention". Of those who applied in 2023, 632 were still registered and licensed to practice in the UK.
Pay parity, staff shortages and the North's deteriorating health service – it has consistently recorded the highest NHS waiting lists over the past decade – are undoubtedly factors for those moving.
[ Striking junior doctors warn more medics will leave North's health service without pay riseOpens in new window ]
The impact of Brexit, Covid and a two-year political vacuum have also been felt, with junior doctors striking for the first time over pay last month.
Since Stormont's restoration in February, Northern Ireland's Health Minister Robin Swann has pledged to build the GP workforce and retain more experienced doctors.
But he has yet to stop the exodus.
Anne Carson is a consultant radiologist who left her NHS job after 25 years for locum work in Letterkenny and Portlaoise.
"I choose to go down South because as a senior radiologist walking into any NHS department in Northern Ireland, I would be flogged to death. That's the bottom line.
"There has been a complete reversal; it used to be the Southerners came up to work in the North and now it's very much the other way round because of terms and conditions and pay, and pressure of work."
Dr Anne Carson, consultant radiologist
However, Carson says it's "not all roses" for doctors in the South. "Southern consultants have their own issues and it can be very stressful for those in permanent jobs," she says.
"But Northern Ireland is broken. It's so broken I don't know what the answer is."
Asked if it was concerned about the movement south, the Department of Health confirmed that discussions were under way with consultants' representatives on pay issues.
The Northern Ireland health service continues to "actively recruit clinicians regionally, nationally and internationally", says a department spokesman.
"While a small number of medical staff may have chosen to take up work in the Republic of Ireland or other jurisdictions, it should also be acknowledged that our workforce across the health service continues to grow."
David Farren, chairman of the BMA consultants' committee in Northern Ireland, takes issue with the department's view, saying vacancy figures for consultants "tell a very different story" – there were 182 unfilled posts in September last year, an increase of 80 per cent since March 2017.
"Every consultant I chat to in a health trust in Northern Ireland is now telling me they know someone who is leaving to work in the South," says Farren, a consultant medical microbiologist at Antrim Area Hospital.
He has been inundated with calls from English colleagues asking "What it's like to live in Ireland?"
Dr David Farren: 'It wouldn't surprise me particularly if staff keep moving across the Border'
Some colleagues in Antrim have recently left for Dublin – and he says he was about to quit himself, but decided not to move for family reasons.
"We've lost a couple of radiologists, a couple of obstetrics and gynaecology consultants and there's a few people who have gone part-time, who are doing a few days a week in Antrim and a few in Dublin," he says.
Farren says he could earn double what he makes a week for a 37-hour week in the North "with no on-call". There are other benefits; he lives in Lisburn and has a 40-minute driving commute, but could be in Dublin in less than two hours on the train.
"I don't have to drive, I can work on the train or read a book or even do a crossword. Simple things like that," he says.
Northern doctors believe there could be more cross-Border health services, beyond cancer treatment and children's heart surgery that is already provided, if the trend continues.
"It wouldn't surprise me particularly if staff keep moving across the Border," says Farren.
Alan Stout believes "one of the biggest drivers towards an all-island health service" would be if "a large majority" of Northern Ireland's doctors end up working in the Republic.
"So if our doctors are in the South, we're going to end up having to share services anyway," he says.
Quote from: weareros on September 05, 2024, 12:43:21 PMIT had a good article back in April of doctors moving to HSE for better pay and better work conditions. Behind a paid wall so posting below.
Health
'Northern Ireland is broken': how a 'toxic' culture and better pay is enticing North's doctors across the Border
Doctors in the North can earn two and a half times what they make with the NHS in the health service in the South
Dr Peter Maguire, from Newry, who works one or two days a week in St Luke's hospital in Rathgar, Dublin. Photograph: Dara Mac Dónaill
Seanín Graham's picture
Seanín Graham
Sun Apr 21 2024 - 06:00
When Peter Maguire works a shift at a hospital in Dublin, he earns as much in one day as he would in a week in Northern Ireland's NHS.
The anaesthetist quit his consultant's job in the North five years ago. A "toxic" NHS culture, Stormont's collapse and Brexit led to his decision. He began working part-time in the Republic.
"Best thing I ever did," he says of the move.
Maguire, who has 30 years' experience, is one of a growing number of senior doctors from the North who are working in locum and full-time posts in the South.
Oncologists, gynaecologists, radiologists and emergency department consultants are among those who have recently made the move, says a leading figure within the North's main doctors' union, the British Medical Association (BMA). Those taking up permanent positions can expect to more than double – and in some cases triple – their NHS salaries.
Some GPs, including those starting out in their careers, are also leaving. A workforce report published this week warned the profession was "struggling to the point of collapse" and demanded urgent action to prevent further departures.
"While the grass is not entirely greener in the Republic, if you speak to anyone there, it's probably not as frantic. They're not dealing with the fallout of the crumbling NHS," says Belfast GP Michael McKenna.
"Lots of junior GPs are making the move but we're also losing a lot of older consultants who are just fed up. The worrying thing is that half the GP trainees they're putting through in the North don't want to stay; they're training here and going back down South."
A GP starting out in the South would be earning "two-and-a-bit times" more than the same GP in the North, where the average salary is about £92,000 (€107,000), he says.
"We can't get anywhere near those salaries," says Alan Stout, co-chair of the BMA's GP committee.
"It's Enniskillen, it's Armagh ... it's those Border areas that doctors are leaving and [the money] makes it such an easy decision. It's no coincidence that those are the areas where we're struggling to recruit people".
Consultants in Northern Ireland have a starting salary of £88,000, which tops out at £118,00 for a 40-hour week. This compares with a baseline salary of €217,325-€261,051 in the South for a 37-hour week
Ireland is now third to Australia and New Zealand as the most popular destinations for UK doctors planning to practise elsewhere, according to the General Medical Council (GMC), the UK regulator for doctors.
For Northern doctors, who earn less than their British counterparts, the lure of enhanced pay packages in better staffed hospital departments is "super attractive", one senior medic said.
Consultants in Northern Ireland have a starting salary of £88,000 annually, which tops out at £118,00 for a 40-hour week. This compares with a baseline salary of €217,325 to €261,051 in the South for a 37-hour week under the Sláintecare contract introduced last year.
"Things are so much better and different in the South for consultants," says Maguire, who was based at Newry's Daisy Hill Hospital for 16 years.
"Only yesterday, I took the train down from Newry to Dublin and worked in St Luke's in Rathgar. I did my shift and came home and never found the work so satisfying in my life. It's what I trained to do, look after people.
"It's far better paid and there's far less bureaucracy."
Dr Peter Maguire at St Luke's hospital in Rathgar, Dublin. Photograph: Dara Mac Dónaill
After tax, he was earning around £4,500 a month from his NHS consultant job.
"I'm not comfortable talking about money but I was asked to go up to Letterkenny to cover for holidays last June and took home €9,600 for a week.
"Let's even park the money. When you can come home and say, 'Wasn't that a brilliant day's work?' I would never dream of returning to the NHS."
While no firm data exists on the number of medics from Northern Ireland working in the South, information provided to The Irish Times by the GMC is an indicator of what appears to be happening on the ground.
The regulator confirmed a spike in requests for a document that enables UK-based doctors to practise in the South; figures show the number of Certificate of Good Standing (CGS) applications rose from 507 in 2022 to 804 last year.
The GMC cautions that the requests "do not necessarily mean the doctor has definitely left the country – rather, it may show an intention". Of those who applied in 2023, 632 were still registered and licensed to practice in the UK.
Pay parity, staff shortages and the North's deteriorating health service – it has consistently recorded the highest NHS waiting lists over the past decade – are undoubtedly factors for those moving.
[ Striking junior doctors warn more medics will leave North's health service without pay riseOpens in new window ]
The impact of Brexit, Covid and a two-year political vacuum have also been felt, with junior doctors striking for the first time over pay last month.
Since Stormont's restoration in February, Northern Ireland's Health Minister Robin Swann has pledged to build the GP workforce and retain more experienced doctors.
But he has yet to stop the exodus.
Anne Carson is a consultant radiologist who left her NHS job after 25 years for locum work in Letterkenny and Portlaoise.
"I choose to go down South because as a senior radiologist walking into any NHS department in Northern Ireland, I would be flogged to death. That's the bottom line.
"There has been a complete reversal; it used to be the Southerners came up to work in the North and now it's very much the other way round because of terms and conditions and pay, and pressure of work."
Dr Anne Carson, consultant radiologist
However, Carson says it's "not all roses" for doctors in the South. "Southern consultants have their own issues and it can be very stressful for those in permanent jobs," she says.
"But Northern Ireland is broken. It's so broken I don't know what the answer is."
Asked if it was concerned about the movement south, the Department of Health confirmed that discussions were under way with consultants' representatives on pay issues.
The Northern Ireland health service continues to "actively recruit clinicians regionally, nationally and internationally", says a department spokesman.
"While a small number of medical staff may have chosen to take up work in the Republic of Ireland or other jurisdictions, it should also be acknowledged that our workforce across the health service continues to grow."
David Farren, chairman of the BMA consultants' committee in Northern Ireland, takes issue with the department's view, saying vacancy figures for consultants "tell a very different story" – there were 182 unfilled posts in September last year, an increase of 80 per cent since March 2017.
"Every consultant I chat to in a health trust in Northern Ireland is now telling me they know someone who is leaving to work in the South," says Farren, a consultant medical microbiologist at Antrim Area Hospital.
He has been inundated with calls from English colleagues asking "What it's like to live in Ireland?"
Dr David Farren: 'It wouldn't surprise me particularly if staff keep moving across the Border'
Some colleagues in Antrim have recently left for Dublin – and he says he was about to quit himself, but decided not to move for family reasons.
"We've lost a couple of radiologists, a couple of obstetrics and gynaecology consultants and there's a few people who have gone part-time, who are doing a few days a week in Antrim and a few in Dublin," he says.
Farren says he could earn double what he makes a week for a 37-hour week in the North "with no on-call". There are other benefits; he lives in Lisburn and has a 40-minute driving commute, but could be in Dublin in less than two hours on the train.
"I don't have to drive, I can work on the train or read a book or even do a crossword. Simple things like that," he says.
Northern doctors believe there could be more cross-Border health services, beyond cancer treatment and children's heart surgery that is already provided, if the trend continues.
"It wouldn't surprise me particularly if staff keep moving across the Border," says Farren.
Alan Stout believes "one of the biggest drivers towards an all-island health service" would be if "a large majority" of Northern Ireland's doctors end up working in the Republic.
"So if our doctors are in the South, we're going to end up having to share services anyway," he says.
The difference in wages is crazy.
The lad can sit on the train to Dublin and do the crossword.
I thought their main concern was patient safety and not more money ::)
Quote from: weareros on September 05, 2024, 12:43:21 PMIT had a good article back in April of doctors moving to HSE for better pay and better work conditions. Behind a paid wall so posting below.
Health
'Northern Ireland is broken': how a 'toxic' culture and better pay is enticing North's doctors across the Border
Doctors in the North can earn two and a half times what they make with the NHS in the health service in the South
Dr Peter Maguire, from Newry, who works one or two days a week in St Luke's hospital in Rathgar, Dublin. Photograph: Dara Mac Dónaill
Seanín Graham's picture
Seanín Graham
Sun Apr 21 2024 - 06:00
When Peter Maguire works a shift at a hospital in Dublin, he earns as much in one day as he would in a week in Northern Ireland's NHS.
The anaesthetist quit his consultant's job in the North five years ago. A "toxic" NHS culture, Stormont's collapse and Brexit led to his decision. He began working part-time in the Republic.
"Best thing I ever did," he says of the move.
Maguire, who has 30 years' experience, is one of a growing number of senior doctors from the North who are working in locum and full-time posts in the South.
Oncologists, gynaecologists, radiologists and emergency department consultants are among those who have recently made the move, says a leading figure within the North's main doctors' union, the British Medical Association (BMA). Those taking up permanent positions can expect to more than double – and in some cases triple – their NHS salaries.
Some GPs, including those starting out in their careers, are also leaving. A workforce report published this week warned the profession was "struggling to the point of collapse" and demanded urgent action to prevent further departures.
"While the grass is not entirely greener in the Republic, if you speak to anyone there, it's probably not as frantic. They're not dealing with the fallout of the crumbling NHS," says Belfast GP Michael McKenna.
"Lots of junior GPs are making the move but we're also losing a lot of older consultants who are just fed up. The worrying thing is that half the GP trainees they're putting through in the North don't want to stay; they're training here and going back down South."
A GP starting out in the South would be earning "two-and-a-bit times" more than the same GP in the North, where the average salary is about £92,000 (€107,000), he says.
"We can't get anywhere near those salaries," says Alan Stout, co-chair of the BMA's GP committee.
"It's Enniskillen, it's Armagh ... it's those Border areas that doctors are leaving and [the money] makes it such an easy decision. It's no coincidence that those are the areas where we're struggling to recruit people".
Consultants in Northern Ireland have a starting salary of £88,000, which tops out at £118,00 for a 40-hour week. This compares with a baseline salary of €217,325-€261,051 in the South for a 37-hour week
Ireland is now third to Australia and New Zealand as the most popular destinations for UK doctors planning to practise elsewhere, according to the General Medical Council (GMC), the UK regulator for doctors.
For Northern doctors, who earn less than their British counterparts, the lure of enhanced pay packages in better staffed hospital departments is "super attractive", one senior medic said.
Consultants in Northern Ireland have a starting salary of £88,000 annually, which tops out at £118,00 for a 40-hour week. This compares with a baseline salary of €217,325 to €261,051 in the South for a 37-hour week under the Sláintecare contract introduced last year.
"Things are so much better and different in the South for consultants," says Maguire, who was based at Newry's Daisy Hill Hospital for 16 years.
"Only yesterday, I took the train down from Newry to Dublin and worked in St Luke's in Rathgar. I did my shift and came home and never found the work so satisfying in my life. It's what I trained to do, look after people.
"It's far better paid and there's far less bureaucracy."
Dr Peter Maguire at St Luke's hospital in Rathgar, Dublin. Photograph: Dara Mac Dónaill
After tax, he was earning around £4,500 a month from his NHS consultant job.
"I'm not comfortable talking about money but I was asked to go up to Letterkenny to cover for holidays last June and took home €9,600 for a week.
"Let's even park the money. When you can come home and say, 'Wasn't that a brilliant day's work?' I would never dream of returning to the NHS."
While no firm data exists on the number of medics from Northern Ireland working in the South, information provided to The Irish Times by the GMC is an indicator of what appears to be happening on the ground.
The regulator confirmed a spike in requests for a document that enables UK-based doctors to practise in the South; figures show the number of Certificate of Good Standing (CGS) applications rose from 507 in 2022 to 804 last year.
The GMC cautions that the requests "do not necessarily mean the doctor has definitely left the country – rather, it may show an intention". Of those who applied in 2023, 632 were still registered and licensed to practice in the UK.
Pay parity, staff shortages and the North's deteriorating health service – it has consistently recorded the highest NHS waiting lists over the past decade – are undoubtedly factors for those moving.
[ Striking junior doctors warn more medics will leave North's health service without pay riseOpens in new window ]
The impact of Brexit, Covid and a two-year political vacuum have also been felt, with junior doctors striking for the first time over pay last month.
Since Stormont's restoration in February, Northern Ireland's Health Minister Robin Swann has pledged to build the GP workforce and retain more experienced doctors.
But he has yet to stop the exodus.
Anne Carson is a consultant radiologist who left her NHS job after 25 years for locum work in Letterkenny and Portlaoise.
"I choose to go down South because as a senior radiologist walking into any NHS department in Northern Ireland, I would be flogged to death. That's the bottom line.
"There has been a complete reversal; it used to be the Southerners came up to work in the North and now it's very much the other way round because of terms and conditions and pay, and pressure of work."
Dr Anne Carson, consultant radiologist
However, Carson says it's "not all roses" for doctors in the South. "Southern consultants have their own issues and it can be very stressful for those in permanent jobs," she says.
"But Northern Ireland is broken. It's so broken I don't know what the answer is."
Asked if it was concerned about the movement south, the Department of Health confirmed that discussions were under way with consultants' representatives on pay issues.
The Northern Ireland health service continues to "actively recruit clinicians regionally, nationally and internationally", says a department spokesman.
"While a small number of medical staff may have chosen to take up work in the Republic of Ireland or other jurisdictions, it should also be acknowledged that our workforce across the health service continues to grow."
David Farren, chairman of the BMA consultants' committee in Northern Ireland, takes issue with the department's view, saying vacancy figures for consultants "tell a very different story" – there were 182 unfilled posts in September last year, an increase of 80 per cent since March 2017.
"Every consultant I chat to in a health trust in Northern Ireland is now telling me they know someone who is leaving to work in the South," says Farren, a consultant medical microbiologist at Antrim Area Hospital.
He has been inundated with calls from English colleagues asking "What it's like to live in Ireland?"
Dr David Farren: 'It wouldn't surprise me particularly if staff keep moving across the Border'
Some colleagues in Antrim have recently left for Dublin – and he says he was about to quit himself, but decided not to move for family reasons.
"We've lost a couple of radiologists, a couple of obstetrics and gynaecology consultants and there's a few people who have gone part-time, who are doing a few days a week in Antrim and a few in Dublin," he says.
Farren says he could earn double what he makes a week for a 37-hour week in the North "with no on-call". There are other benefits; he lives in Lisburn and has a 40-minute driving commute, but could be in Dublin in less than two hours on the train.
"I don't have to drive, I can work on the train or read a book or even do a crossword. Simple things like that," he says.
Northern doctors believe there could be more cross-Border health services, beyond cancer treatment and children's heart surgery that is already provided, if the trend continues.
"It wouldn't surprise me particularly if staff keep moving across the Border," says Farren.
Alan Stout believes "one of the biggest drivers towards an all-island health service" would be if "a large majority" of Northern Ireland's doctors end up working in the Republic.
"So if our doctors are in the South, we're going to end up having to share services anyway," he says.
The health budget is a black hole. I think it's currently €23bn which is around €4000 per head. It could probably employ every single doctor in the North. And what consultants get paid is obscene. There is no management of budgets.
Quote from: seafoid on September 05, 2024, 08:42:17 PMThe health budget is a black hole. I think it's currently €23bn which is around €4000 per head. It could probably employ every single doctor in the North. And what consultants get paid is obscene. There is no management of budgets.
There is no concern for productivity.
But help is at hand
https://www.irishtimes.com/health/2024/09/01/former-ryanair-executive-to-be-appointed-to-hse-board/
Operations special....all half price, book before midnight.
Bed, toilet, food all extra of course plus you can buy a scratch card.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on September 05, 2024, 08:08:33 PMI thought their main concern was patient safety and not more money ::)
Well if you were offered almost twice your salary to move to a role an hour away on a train with a less frantic and better staffed hospital, would you refuse it?
Quote from: johnnycool on September 06, 2024, 09:00:05 AMQuote from: Tony Baloney on September 05, 2024, 08:08:33 PMI thought their main concern was patient safety and not more money ::)
Well if you were offered almost twice your salary to move to a role an hour away on a train with a less frantic and better staffed hospital, would you refuse it?
If you are working in a less frantic chaotic environment then patient safety would be better equipped
The extra doh helps though, couldn't be arsed reading it all but are they living in the North and travelling? How's the tax work for that?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 06, 2024, 09:34:02 AMQuote from: johnnycool on September 06, 2024, 09:00:05 AMQuote from: Tony Baloney on September 05, 2024, 08:08:33 PMI thought their main concern was patient safety and not more money ::)
Well if you were offered almost twice your salary to move to a role an hour away on a train with a less frantic and better staffed hospital, would you refuse it?
If you are working in a less frantic chaotic environment then patient safety would be better equipped
The extra doh helps though, couldn't be arsed reading it all but are they living in the North and travelling? How's the tax work for that?
One of the doctors noted the tax, since on their Freestate doctor salary you would pay a brave bit of tax. Having paid so much Irish tax you would not owe the UK anything.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 06, 2024, 09:34:02 AMQuote from: johnnycool on September 06, 2024, 09:00:05 AMQuote from: Tony Baloney on September 05, 2024, 08:08:33 PMI thought their main concern was patient safety and not more money ::)
Well if you were offered almost twice your salary to move to a role an hour away on a train with a less frantic and better staffed hospital, would you refuse it?
If you are working in a less frantic chaotic environment then patient safety would be better equipped
The extra doh helps though, couldn't be arsed reading it all but are they living in the North and travelling? How's the tax work for that?
I understand you pay Tax/PRSI/USC here.
You have to make a return to the Brit Revenue to see if you owe them anything.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 06, 2024, 03:24:50 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on September 06, 2024, 09:34:02 AMQuote from: johnnycool on September 06, 2024, 09:00:05 AMQuote from: Tony Baloney on September 05, 2024, 08:08:33 PMI thought their main concern was patient safety and not more money ::)
Well if you were offered almost twice your salary to move to a role an hour away on a train with a less frantic and better staffed hospital, would you refuse it?
If you are working in a less frantic chaotic environment then patient safety would be better equipped
The extra doh helps though, couldn't be arsed reading it all but are they living in the North and travelling? How's the tax work for that?
I understand you pay Tax/PRSI/USC here.
You have to make a return to the Brit Revenue to see if you owe them anything.
Reason I'm asking I know a old colleague of mine that worked for us in the north and south and ended up (unwittingly) with a hefty tax bill
What do people in the other jurisdiction think of the Angelus?
Quote from: seafoid on September 06, 2024, 06:02:15 PMWhat do people in the other jurisdiction think of the Angelus?
Dinner time.
Quote from: seafoid on September 06, 2024, 06:02:15 PMWhat do people in the other jurisdiction think of the Angelus?
It usually means it's time for the Simpsons on the other channel
Quote from: johnnycool on September 06, 2024, 09:00:05 AMQuote from: Tony Baloney on September 05, 2024, 08:08:33 PMI thought their main concern was patient safety and not more money ::)
Well if you were offered almost twice your salary to move to a role an hour away on a train with a less frantic and better staffed hospital, would you refuse it?
I would but I'd be clear that it was for the money instead of lying about it.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on September 07, 2024, 07:58:18 PMQuote from: johnnycool on September 06, 2024, 09:00:05 AMQuote from: Tony Baloney on September 05, 2024, 08:08:33 PMI thought their main concern was patient safety and not more money ::)
Well if you were offered almost twice your salary to move to a role an hour away on a train with a less frantic and better staffed hospital, would you refuse it?
I would but I'd be clear that it was for the money instead of lying about it.
One woman on the RTÉ programme said that she would work for the same money, as the Northern system was chaos.
Quote from: armaghniac on September 07, 2024, 09:24:21 PMQuote from: Tony Baloney on September 07, 2024, 07:58:18 PMQuote from: johnnycool on September 06, 2024, 09:00:05 AMQuote from: Tony Baloney on September 05, 2024, 08:08:33 PMI thought their main concern was patient safety and not more money ::)
Well if you were offered almost twice your salary to move to a role an hour away on a train with a less frantic and better staffed hospital, would you refuse it?
I would but I'd be clear that it was for the money instead of lying about it.
One woman on the RTÉ programme said that she would work for the same money, as the Northern system was chaos.
Hence why I included the two quotes from the article.
NI NHS is fucked