Hey guys, I had way too much time on my hands yesterday, so I came up with a wacky idea for a new GAA Championship & Shield competition.
Hope you like.
bit.ly/1JssvgU (http://bit.ly/1JssvgU)
The Longford v Dublin thread had pretty much turned into what this thread is about so good to start a proper separate discussion.
From reading what the president had to say yesterday, there seems to be a desire among players to retain the provincials, although it'll be interesting to see what the GPA report back on when they lobby their members.
Your proposal removes the provincials and also may lead to dead rubber games as groups are sorted out early. I also think the shield would generate little interest much like the Tommy Murphy of old.
I don't mean to be so negative, and it is beautifully presented but Rossfan's proposal is by far they best I've seen on this. I hope he doesn't mind me pasting it here:
FL every second weekend from 1st weekend in Feb for 5 rounds, last 2 rounds and Divisional Finals played on 3 successive weekends.( 2015 - 1/2, 15/2, 1/3, 15/3, 29/3, 12/4, 19/4 and Finals we 26/4. Club Leagues can at least progress in tandem with County games.
Keep the Provincial Championships but tighten the whole effin schedule up.
Then a new type of All Ireland championship -
8 Provincial Finalists go direct to Round 2. Prov Champs seeded and given a home draw
A new "Senior 3" Championship between the 5 lowest placed teams in League ( that don't make a Provincial Final). Winners go to Round 1 of AI Championship.
A new "Senior 2" between the 6 next lowest placed teams in NFL( that didn't make a Prov Final). Finalists of this competition go to Round 1 of the AI Championship.
A.I Championship Round 1 to consist of the 3 "weak" teams and the 13 other who didn't make the Prov Finals.
Round 2 between the Prov finalists and the 8 Round 2 winners with the 4 Prov Champions getting a home draw.
(Maybe the draws should be based on highest NFL team play the lowest etc to make sure there are no real dead rubbers in the NFL.??)
Quarter Finals to keep the Prov champions apart as now and Semis based on the old Provincial rota.
Extra time in all games and a proper logical scheduling (e.g AI Semis same weekend 1 Sat, 1 Sunday, Prov Championships run over 6 weekends) to enable Club championships to move in tandem with the Co fixtures.
NFL becomes more relevant
Keep the Tradition of the Prov Championships
Gives the weak and superweak Summer competitions thay can realistically aim to win.
Doesn't exclude them from the Sam race
Ensures that winning a Provincial will bring a bit of € from a home Championship game.
Doesn't lump Counties into a permanent tiered structure that they might never get out of.
No.
Doesn't address the issue of teams getting a beating.
Does away with the provincial championships - i still don't see a reason for this..
Teams are actually only gtd 3 championship games - The "Shield", like the Tommy Murphy Cup wont be valued
New York are history?
Looks good on paper but the logistics would be bad and unattractive for travelling supporters. Great thing about it is the back door is gone.
Not much good giving London Leitrim or Carlow the 3 games they'd be getting in those groups!
Shield would be totally meaningless
Dumping the Provincials is a non runner.
New York shouldn't be allowed in Senior Championship as they don't play in NFL.
Let them play in the Junior if they must.
Esmeralda I don't mind you highlighting my system at all - put cheque in post please ;D
If we are changing the provincials, then this is the format I like best, although I wouldn't bother having a Shield competition, as someone said it probably wouldn't be bothered with because it;s just a losers group.
It doesn't eliminate the trimmings, but the only way you can eliminate them, is to stop the poorest teams entering at all, and I don't agree with that.
It also gives the Division 4 teams a realistic chance of beating a Division 3 team (Tipperary v Waterford notwithstanding).
Quote from: Rossfan on June 04, 2015, 11:19:08 AM
Not much good giving London Leitrim or Carlow the 3 games they'd be getting in those groups!
Shield would be totally meaningless
Dumping the Provincials is a non runner.
New York shouldn't be allowed in Senior Championship as they don't play in NFL.
Let them play in the Junior if they must.
Esmeralda I don't mind you highlighting my system at all - put cheque in post please ;D
In all seriousness, would you not consider bringing your proposal somewhere it might get listened to? It ticks all the boxes as far as I can see.
I never thought of New York but I guess they still get their annual game in Connaught (or however you lot spell it) so it doesn't make any material difference.
Something needs to be considered here first - WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WE ARE TRYING TO SOLVE?
Is it the problem of good teams hammering weaker teams (e.g. Dublin V longford?)
Is it the problem of unfair routes to All Ireland Q-final for teams in different provinces? (e.g. Ulster preliminary round Vs Kerry/Cork in provincial semi)
There are other issues too which need to be considered, e.g. fixtures/clubs, young player burnout, TV/marketing, etc.
The 'problem' needs to be agreed upon first, before there can be any hope of agreeing a solution.
At the moment, I don't really see much general consensus about what the problem is, other than that there is a problem!
Also, I sometimes wonder, are we always looking for a problem in Ireland! Last month defensive football was the worst plague ever to hit GAA and if we didn't do something about it it'd be the end of GAA in Ireland. Has that been forgotten about this month now that we have a new issue to discuss?
Perhaps we are being over-reactionary?
That's not to suggest that we don't need change - but lets be sure of what and why we want to change.
for football it should be just the way it was. 4 winners play off in the semi final and clubs can have more games without the fecking stand off with managers taking over the club fixtures all the time.... soooo many players losing out on regular games every week because closed dates for training weekends/ championship matches and then the qualifiers and more training days.... teams might put a bit more effort into staying in the championship rather always looking at the qualifier as a means to get further on in the championship.... its ran its course
Quote from: westbound on June 04, 2015, 11:29:53 AM
Something needs to be considered here first - WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WE ARE TRYING TO SOLVE?
Is it the problem of good teams hammering weaker teams (e.g. Dublin V longford?)
Is it the problem of unfair routes to All Ireland Q-final for teams in different provinces? (e.g. Ulster preliminary round Vs Kerry/Cork in provincial semi)
There are other issues too which need to be considered, e.g. fixtures/clubs, young player burnout, TV/marketing, etc.
The 'problem' needs to be agreed upon first, before there can be any hope of agreeing a solution.
At the moment, I don't really see much general consensus about what the problem is, other than that there is a problem!
Also, I sometimes wonder, are we always looking for a problem in Ireland! Last month defensive football was the worst plague ever to hit GAA and if we didn't do something about it it'd be the end of GAA in Ireland. Has that been forgotten about this month now that we have a new issue to discuss?
Perhaps we are being over-reactionary?
That's not to suggest that we don't need change - but lets be sure of what and why we want to change.
You're singing off my hymnsheet westbound :)
Tyrone v Cavan in Leitrim?!!
All teams should play equal number of H and A games. It's unfair otherwise. Just like the NFL.
Shield just like the Tommy Murphy cup. Nobody will play in it.
All of this stuff with the champions league formats is well and good but the issue is going to be finding dates/times and venues for all these games.
Davegaasportsdesk, how about posting potential dates for your fixtures for 2016?
How does it affect the other non senior football county competitions (minor/u21/sigerson/hurling) as well as club activity in all the counties.
QuoteSomething needs to be considered here first - WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WE ARE TRYING TO SOLVE?
Is it the problem of good teams hammering weaker teams (e.g. Dublin V longford?)
Is it the problem of unfair routes to All Ireland Q-final for teams in different provinces? (e.g. Ulster preliminary round Vs Kerry/Cork in provincial semi)
There are other issues too which need to be considered, e.g. fixtures/clubs, young player burnout, TV/marketing, etc.
The 'problem' needs to be agreed upon first, before there can be any hope of agreeing a solution.
At the moment, I don't really see much general consensus about what the problem is, other than that there is a problem!
Also, I sometimes wonder, are we always looking for a problem in Ireland! Last month defensive football was the worst plague ever to hit GAA and if we didn't do something about it it'd be the end of GAA in Ireland. Has that been forgotten about this month now that we have a new issue to discuss?
Perhaps we are being over-reactionary?
That's not to suggest that we don't need change - but lets be sure of what and why we want to change.
If you have a problem with the problem then take it to some no problem site.
had the argument been made that the current league structure has initiated and will only continue to exacerbate a gap in standards. The current format sees the best make each other stronger and effectively the weaker make each other weaker. The eight best teams in the country playing each other regularly and been able to expose new players to that level of football. Weaker counties becoming accustomed to lower standards of opposition, younger players from weaker counties who are competitive at college level then subconsciously lowering their standards as they adjust to division 3/4 football?
The previous format 1A, 1B and 2A, 2B gave a better chance for teams to compete against a broader range of abilities? Saw bigger teams visiting Carlow, Waterford etc and generating more interest/crowds than maybe having Antrim, London and Wicklow as the only home games a division 4 side may play in a year (Eg Fermanagh v Dublin 2016 league or Carlow v Kildare). Sure the best 8 don't constantly play each other but there is surely an advantage to the game/GAA as a whole in the short, medium and long term?
Eg. A divisions = 4 teams from division 1 and four from division 2. B divisions = 4 from division 3 and 4 from division 4. Top two from each in quarter finals.
Further possibility - Top team in B promoted, 2nd in B plays off against 7th in A and 3rd in B plays off against 6th for promotion/ relegation - only a possibility. Myriad of options to give every team a further playoff type game to finish of league with a meaningful game and ensure all fixtures up to last league game will be relevant. Possibly play all playoffs in Croker over one "Magic Weekend" type event which could be marketed.
Also to use the most recent example, can anybody say Longford were prepared to the best possible standard heading into last weekends game. Not alone tactically, but throughout the year were they given the same environment to develop and improve skills etc throughout the year?
What about the possibility of some draft type system, broad outline as follows(appreciate the amateur game does not allow this to work perfectly), the winning management/backroom team from all ireland semi finalists 2015 are required by GAA in 2016 to assist/work in some capacity even consultancy with the bottom 4 teams in country from 2014 to create the opportunities for these teams to improve? Problems re info sharing etc but that is a rough stab at idea.
Steps like this may even help to ensure weaker counties can get their best players to make themselves available.
Don't want to get into it at the minute either but there should be some controls in place by Croke Park to vet out the chancers and journeymen currently doing the rounds as county managers and members of back room teams?
Should the GAA also not ensure that media are required to use relatively unknown players from smaller counties in these shoots/conferences that we see the household names regularly in, help create an attractive image of a been a Division 4 footballer, especially for kids in these counties and the 13-18 year olds who may decide to just go off and play soccer/rugby? Also reminds parents that the product exists in these counties.
Quote from: davegaasportsdesk on June 04, 2015, 10:51:40 AM
Hey guys, I had way too much time on my hands yesterday, so I came up with a wacky idea for a new GAA Championship & Shield competition.
Hope you like.
bit.ly/1JssvgU (http://bit.ly/1JssvgU)
I haven't read your idea, but my idea was better.
My stab at it, it's kind of a hybrid National League/Provincial Championship influenced by American Sports Divisional Structures with a separate AI series but qualification is merited and rewards Divisional winners.
Should all be done and dusted within 6 months.
(http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/endafinn/NFL_Champ1_zpsbewk7d9j.png)
(http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/endafinn/NFL_Champ2_zpsxpllbkxe.png)
(http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/endafinn/NFL_Champ3_zpsvchfdlg3.png)
Bullshit Dinny. Roscommon and Armagh in the All Ireland Final? Come of it.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 04, 2015, 01:55:27 PM
Bullshit Dinny. Roscommon and Armagh in the All Ireland Final? Come of it.
Just love that Bus, want it to get the day out it deserves.
Did anyone read Kevin McStay's article today?
He's been working on an alternative championship structure for the last couple of years (he carries it around with him in the dossier).
Haven't read it yet as I've a pain in my head with this stuff.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/kevin-mcstay-explains-his-format-for-rescuing-the-provincial-and-allireland-championships-31275692.html (http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/kevin-mcstay-explains-his-format-for-rescuing-the-provincial-and-allireland-championships-31275692.html)
McStay's proposal has a round robin which again I think will leave dead rubber games which nobody wants.
The strangest part about it though is that he's putting eight teams into a second tier competition which is knockout. So four teams get one championship game, one less than the current system. Am I reading that right.
Dinny, I can't make sense of yours at all. I think I have information overload like Jinxy.
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 04, 2015, 11:27:17 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 04, 2015, 11:19:08 AM
Not much good giving London Leitrim or Carlow the 3 games they'd be getting in those groups!
Shield would be totally meaningless
Dumping the Provincials is a non runner.
New York shouldn't be allowed in Senior Championship as they don't play in NFL.
Let them play in the Junior if they must.
Esmeralda I don't mind you highlighting my system at all - put cheque in post please ;D
In all seriousness, would you not consider bringing your proposal somewhere it might get listened to? It ticks all the boxes as far as I can see.
Have done so today ... b ut don't know if it will be taken on board.
To be fair to McStay, himself and Maher were driving forces behind new Championship format in Roscommon which so far is working very well.
Can't understand some of the solutions which are combining league & champ,.,,
the league is the best competition in the GAA - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I think we do have to compact the Championship to leaving Mid August/September/October for club championship time or earlier.
Keep provincial championships but tweak so that D3 & D4 teams play each other first in round robin format and only the winners of that gets to play D2/D1 teams. It may mean slight tweaks based on League promotion/relegation.
I like the cut of McStays and it seems to tick a lot of boxes.
Does he mention about the League or the McKenna Cup competitions though?
One thing he could do is play the Junior championship as a round robin as well. Hardly seems fair or to their benefit that they would only play a knockout competition - one game possably. I'd also consider promoting the tow finalists, keep it at a healthy rate of turnover, rather than 1 up and 1 down.
Some good ideas but all bollix until the problem is defined properly as mentioned earlier.
Not to be too negative but there's a couple of elephants in the room that need to be addressed before changing the championship structure will make much odds, primarily the disparity in funding - not just the Dubs but all over, I'd wager the top 6 best funded counties are the most competitive in recent years. Difficult to even this out as you have different numbers to cater for, distances to travel, etc. The more sophisticated training methods become, the more it costs and it's difficult to even this out
The other is TV revenue - all these ideas around freeing up weekends for club players aren't going to happen unless the decision is made to take a hit on this. TV schedule demands big games every weekend
This is really easy, just follow NCAA basketball system
Each team gets ranked at the start of the year
Play the early season competitions , league, and provincial championships as is, and reassess the rankings every week.
Then play an All Ireland championship, with four equal brackets, knockout football, with the games based on on ranking, i.e 1 rank plays rank 8
Positives -
Every game counts as it affects ranking. So in effect, each team will have between 12 and 20 championship games each year instead of 2-10. Stop everybody complaining about the amount of training being done for 2 games.
Stop intercounty managers treating secondary competitions as experiments. Every game counts
Weaker counties get to play teams of their own standard in the league, but also get to play against the big teams in knockout football. This leads to a proper development structure and the potential of upsets (e.g. Longford - Derry 2014, Antrim Donegal 2009)
The traditional competitions which drive local rivalries are maintained, (e.g. Ulster Championship)
The provincial championship importance is elevated as major shift in rankings would occur depending on championship results
Have championship weekends, to condense the season, start the season later, play right through all the competitions until All Ireland. This would stop over training.
Quote from: macdanger2 on June 05, 2015, 01:49:46 AM
Some good ideas but all bollix until the problem is defined properly as mentioned earlier.
Not to be too negative but there's a couple of elephants in the room that need to be addressed before changing the championship structure will make much odds, primarily the disparity in funding - not just the Dubs but all over, I'd wager the top 6 best funded counties are the most competitive in recent years. Difficult to even this out as you have different numbers to cater for, distances to travel, etc. The more sophisticated training methods become, the more it costs and it's difficult to even this out
The other is TV revenue - all these ideas around freeing up weekends for club players aren't going to happen unless the decision is made to take a hit on this. TV schedule demands big games every weekend
All county squads should be filmed at the same level
We've all seen the different formats proposed over the years. The one thing I've heard recently is the Tommy Murphy cup with the winners getting back into championship. Excellent idea meaning this comp getting run off earlier so that the winners potentially get into all Ireland quarters or something. Could raise the profile of smaller teams and give them a proper goal.
Thus there's a route back to the all Ireland for Div 3/4 teams via the TM cup, a route back for Div 1/2 teams via the back door. Teams are playing teams at their level which should bring them on. Also reducing meaningless back door games such as Kerry v Waterford.
Yes, it's an extra set of games but I think this could condense the championship
QuoteSome good ideas but all bollix until the problem is defined properly as mentioned earlier.
Isn't part of the problem the unintended consequence of the back door, i.e. Longford go in at half time 7 or 8 down fully aware that the back door awaits them.
The whole thing is a bit overblown anyhow as even McStay is saying the remaining fixtures should not lead to hammerings.
Hon Wickla.
So Carlow or Waterford won't be playing Tyrone ?
QuoteSo Carlow or Waterford won't be playing Tyrone ?
I stand corrected. Yes, Tyrone could get a hammering off either of those.
Quote from: highorlow on June 05, 2015, 12:32:53 PM
QuoteSo Carlow or Waterford won't be playing Tyrone ?
I stand corrected. Yes, Tyrone could get a hammering off either of those.
;D
Sledging not allowed in Qualifiers obviously :)
What about keeping it as it is with the exception of league 3 & 4 teams (after eliminated from back door) put straight into a knockout competition with the winner getting 300.00k or some sort of financial gain and they'll soon put a bit of effort in (each player getting 5-10k for winning)
A similar package should also come in for All Ireland too so to stop better teams dropping into lower division to win the loot...
I now that prop wouldn't work as we'd find loop holes everywhere in that idea above but if someone could think of some sort of gain be it money or holiday for actually winning something as well as a trophy it would work if the players thought they'd get rewarded for winning...No matter what competition you enter there has to be something to gain from winning it surely :P (that's why we're all amateurs...)