http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/10-years-on-nally-still-prays-for-raider-he-killed-30693251.html
The book, Unless by Invitation, by West of Ireland journalist Crona Esler, examines in depth the case of farmer Padraig Nally who was jailed for shooting dead John 'Frog' Ward after Ward had tried to raid Nally's isolated homestead in Cross, Co Mayo, 10 years ago this month.
In a forensic examination of the legislation, the Defence and Dwelling Act, eventually passed into law by Alan Shatter in 2012, Ms Esler, Deputy Editor of the Western People, states that what is deemed "reasonable" force under the Act is "subjective and depends on the individual circumstances".
"A person who uses force against an intruder which results in the death of this person, still risks criminal prosecution if the force used is not deemed reasonable by the court or jury," Ms Esler writes.
Esler found that Nally has begun to come to terms with his experience. He felt sorry for John Ward's family and says prayers for the repose of his soul. He received 3,000 letters during his trial and when he returned home he often sat up at night and found he "was crying reading them, there was so much compassion among the people".
If someone breaks into your house you should not be prosecuted for executing them on the spot by whatever means at your disposal.
Quote from: haveaharp on October 26, 2014, 01:29:39 PM
If someone breaks into your house you should not be prosecuted for executing them on the spot by whatever means at your disposal.
Totally agree. Especially when the intruder is a gypo.
Quote from: BennyCake on October 26, 2014, 02:36:32 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on October 26, 2014, 01:29:39 PM
If someone breaks into your house you should not be prosecuted for executing them on the spot by whatever means at your disposal.
Totally agree. Especially when the intruder is a gypo.
Bigotry and racism alive and well. God help us all
Only in Ireland could you shoot someone in the back, reload shoot him again and literally get away with murder.
Quote from: Agent Orange on October 26, 2014, 08:01:03 PM
Only in Ireland could you shoot someone in the back, reload shoot him again and literally get away with murder.
or South Africa.... or California....Didn't recall anyone sayin that OJ was defending his property- yet he got away.
If anyone came into my house to rob me and put my family in danger...gyppo or not he would get both barrels if I had a gun. So what else would youse do gooders do? Shoo them out. Cop on.
Quote from: 5 Sams on October 26, 2014, 08:40:55 PM
If anyone came into my house to rob me and put my family in danger...gyppo or not he would get both barrels if I had a gun. So what else would youse do gooders do? Shoo them out. Cop on.
There is a big difference between self defence and murder, when Nally reloaded and shot Ward again he committed murder.
Quote from: Silver hill on October 26, 2014, 03:21:23 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 26, 2014, 02:36:32 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on October 26, 2014, 01:29:39 PM
If someone breaks into your house you should not be prosecuted for executing them on the spot by whatever means at your disposal.
Totally agree. Especially when the intruder is a gypo.
Bigotry and racism alive and well. God help us all
You obviously haven't encountered many gypos in your time.
Quote from: Agent Orange on October 26, 2014, 08:54:20 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on October 26, 2014, 08:40:55 PM
If anyone came into my house to rob me and put my family in danger...gyppo or not he would get both barrels if I had a gun. So what else would youse do gooders do? Shoo them out. Cop on.
There is a big difference between self defence and murder, when Nally reloaded and shot Ward again he committed murder.
The man was tortured by them fcukers by all accounts. An elderly bachelor living in fear. It's understandable to react in the way he did.
Quote from: BennyCake on October 26, 2014, 08:56:50 PM
Quote from: Silver hill on October 26, 2014, 03:21:23 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 26, 2014, 02:36:32 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on October 26, 2014, 01:29:39 PM
If someone breaks into your house you should not be prosecuted for executing them on the spot by whatever means at your disposal.
Totally agree. Especially when the intruder is a gypo.
Bigotry and racism alive and well. God help us all
You obviously haven't encountered many gypos in your time.
+1
Quote from: Agent Orange on October 26, 2014, 08:54:20 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on October 26, 2014, 08:40:55 PM
If anyone came into my house to rob me and put my family in danger...gyppo or not he would get both barrels if I had a gun. So what else would youse do gooders do? Shoo them out. Cop on.
There is a big difference between self defence and murder, when Nally reloaded and shot Ward again he committed murder.
True but there's also a big difference between a one-off intruder and someone serially terrorising an old man. Hard and all as it may have been for the Wards, I have little sympathy with the man who died
Quote from: macdanger2 on October 26, 2014, 09:36:45 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on October 26, 2014, 08:54:20 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on October 26, 2014, 08:40:55 PM
If anyone came into my house to rob me and put my family in danger...gyppo or not he would get both barrels if I had a gun. So what else would youse do gooders do? Shoo them out. Cop on.
There is a big difference between self defence and murder, when Nally reloaded and shot Ward again he committed murder.
True but there's also a big difference between a one-off intruder and someone serially terrorising an old man. Hard and all as it may have been for the Wards, I have little sympathy with the man who died
I have no sympathy for the deceased, but Nally committed murder and was allowed to walk free because of public opinion.
Quote from: Agent Orange on October 26, 2014, 09:57:51 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on October 26, 2014, 09:36:45 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on October 26, 2014, 08:54:20 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on October 26, 2014, 08:40:55 PM
If anyone came into my house to rob me and put my family in danger...gyppo or not he would get both barrels if I had a gun. So what else would youse do gooders do? Shoo them out. Cop on.
There is a big difference between self defence and murder, when Nally reloaded and shot Ward again he committed murder.
True but there's also a big difference between a one-off intruder and someone serially terrorising an old man. Hard and all as it may have been for the Wards, I have little sympathy with the man who died
I have no sympathy for the deceased, but Nally committed murder and was allowed to walk free because of public opinion.
Where do you stand on the death of the innocent woman in last week's crash on the motorway slipway?
Traveller crime is the hidden war in Ireland today. Every daily paper, every weekly regional paper carries incidents or court case details involving 'extended family members'. Appeasement / kid handling is not the answer. Zero tolerance is called for.
Quote from: Agent Orange on October 26, 2014, 09:57:51 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on October 26, 2014, 09:36:45 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on October 26, 2014, 08:54:20 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on October 26, 2014, 08:40:55 PM
If anyone came into my house to rob me and put my family in danger...gyppo or not he would get both barrels if I had a gun. So what else would youse do gooders do? Shoo them out. Cop on.
There is a big difference between self defence and murder, when Nally reloaded and shot Ward again he committed murder.
True but there's also a big difference between a one-off intruder and someone serially terrorising an old man. Hard and all as it may have been for the Wards, I have little sympathy with the man who died
I have no sympathy for the deceased, but Nally committed murder and was allowed to walk free because of public opinion.
Murder perhaps but extremely aggravated circumstances and he was found not guilty by a jury of his peers rather than public opinion
A lot of people say they would pull the trigger. If placed in that situation, when you hear an intruder, I'm not sure how many people would actually pull the trigger and give an intruder both barrels. Saying you're going to do it and potentially take some one's life and actually doing it are 2 different things.
Quote from: hardstation on October 26, 2014, 09:27:59 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 26, 2014, 02:36:32 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on October 26, 2014, 01:29:39 PM
If someone breaks into your house you should not be prosecuted for executing them on the spot by whatever means at your disposal.
Totally agree. Especially when the intruder is a gypo.
So, if you rushed down stairs after hearing your back window go in, would you enquire whether the intruder was a gypo or not before blasting them to death with your rifle? Or when you have taken someone's life, would you be more content knowing that it was a gypo?
Some of you lads are mad or full of shite or both.
Firstly, I don't have a rifle. But I have a Hurley and would reach for it if needed.
Gypos are a scourge in this country. They had that man tortured. They do likewise all over the country, robbing, thieving, intimidating and doing whatever the fcuk they want. I have no sympathy for that Ward fella. None whatsoever. Nor would I for any other gypo who met his end in the same way.
Quote from: mouview on October 26, 2014, 10:14:23 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on October 26, 2014, 09:57:51 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on October 26, 2014, 09:36:45 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on October 26, 2014, 08:54:20 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on October 26, 2014, 08:40:55 PM
If anyone came into my house to rob me and put my family in danger...gyppo or not he would get both barrels if I had a gun. So what else would youse do gooders do? Shoo them out. Cop on.
There is a big difference between self defence and murder, when Nally reloaded and shot Ward again he committed murder.
True but there's also a big difference between a one-off intruder and someone serially terrorising an old man. Hard and all as it may have been for the Wards, I have little sympathy with the man who died
I have no sympathy for the deceased, but Nally committed murder and was allowed to walk free because of public opinion.
Where do you stand on the death of the innocent woman in last week's crash on the motorway slipway?
Traveller crime is the hidden war in Ireland today. Every daily paper, every weekly regional paper carries incidents or court case details involving 'extended family members'. Appeasement / kid handling is not the answer. Zero tolerance is called for.
I'm not aware of any death due to a crash on a motorway or its relevance to this discussion.
We as a society seem to value our worldy goods more than we value life, a sad state of affairs and indicitive of modern Ireland.
Where do we start with zero tolerance? Travellers, motorists, criminals, police, courts, polticians, government?
How do we know someone breaking into the house is a traveller and should there be one course of action for travellers and some other action for others ?. Number 3 shells for travellers and something lighter for others ?.
This isn't making a lot of sense.
Quote from: hardstation on October 26, 2014, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 26, 2014, 11:17:39 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 26, 2014, 09:27:59 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 26, 2014, 02:36:32 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on October 26, 2014, 01:29:39 PM
If someone breaks into your house you should not be prosecuted for executing them on the spot by whatever means at your disposal.
Totally agree. Especially when the intruder is a gypo.
So, if you rushed down stairs after hearing your back window go in, would you enquire whether the intruder was a gypo or not before blasting them to death with your rifle? Or when you have taken someone's life, would you be more content knowing that it was a gypo?
Some of you lads are mad or full of shite or both.
Firstly, I don't have a rifle. But I have a Hurley and would reach for it if needed.
Gypos are a scourge in this country. They had that man tortured. They do likewise all over the country, robbing, thieving, intimidating and doing whatever the fcuk they want. I have no sympathy for that Ward fella. None whatsoever. Nor would I for any other gypo who met his end in the same way.
Is this your opinion for just gypos or anyone who creeps in through a back window?
Anyone crawling in my window will get the same treatment.
Quote from: BennyCake on October 26, 2014, 08:56:50 PM
Quote from: Silver hill on October 26, 2014, 03:21:23 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 26, 2014, 02:36:32 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on October 26, 2014, 01:29:39 PM
If someone breaks into your house you should not be prosecuted for executing them on the spot by whatever means at your disposal.
Totally agree. Especially when the intruder is a gypo.
Bigotry and racism alive and well. God help us all
You obviously haven't encountered many gypos in your time.
Your wan fecking racist cnut. May all the bad luck in the world be cast on you.
A
I stopped reading this thread after this post.
May you don't pass on any of your evil thoughts to anyone.
Quote from: sans pessimism on October 26, 2014, 08:15:28 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on October 26, 2014, 08:01:03 PM
Only in Ireland could you shoot someone in the back, reload shoot him again and literally get away with murder.
or South Africa.... or California....Didn't recall anyone sayin that OJ was defending his property- yet he got away.
South African story currently in the news - killed for a mobile phone :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-29781978
This case is unfortunately a 'difficult' case to base any laws or analysis of laws upon, as the old maxim goes Hard cases make bad law. Nally was tortured and that is a given, he reacted when he shot them but he then reloaded and followed Ward down the lane to deliver the fatal shot when Ward was escaping. That to me takes it out of the realms of defending your property and into the realms of murder. Also the fact that Ward was a Traveler adds a whole other layer to it. Would the reaction have been the same if it had been a hood shot as opposed to a 'gypo'? Somehow I don't think so. This case shows up a lot of the latent racism that is rife in Ireland and has always been there. It is the product of a 99% single identity, mono-cultural, conservative, slightly right of centre up bringing that the majority of the population have experienced. The case of Padraig Nally should be analysed on it's own merits and not as part of a back drop to a 'fear of gypos'. Travelers have a history of crime but if any of you sit in the courts during the day you'll find the majority of crimes are carried out by our own home made brand of scum. As someone who has many friends from the extended Traveler community I think it is important that we see the other side of it before we brand them all with the brush that many do.
I don't think it mattered whether he was a traveler or not. If this was a settled person who plagued Pat Nally then people would still have no sympathy. Like the car crash the other night my immediate thoughts were it's a pity the 5 burglars weren't the ones who were killed. Society is safer with these fcukers off the street. The more permanent the better. I only read they were travellers yesterday. My opinion didn't change either way.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 27, 2014, 09:04:11 AM
This case is unfortunately a 'difficult' case to base any laws or analysis of laws upon, as the old maxim goes Hard cases make bad law. Nally was tortured and that is a given, he reacted when he shot them but he then reloaded and followed Ward down the lane to deliver the fatal shot when Ward was escaping. That to me takes it out of the realms of defending your property and into the realms of murder. Also the fact that Ward was a Traveler adds a whole other layer to it. Would the reaction have been the same if it had been a hood shot as opposed to a 'gypo'? Somehow I don't think so. This case shows up a lot of the latent racism that is rife in Ireland and has always been there. It is the product of a 99% single identity, mono-cultural, conservative, slightly right of centre up bringing that the majority of the population have experienced. The case of Padraig Nally should be analysed on it's own merits and not as part of a back drop to a 'fear of gypos'. Travelers have a history of crime but if any of you sit in the courts during the day you'll find the majority of crimes are carried out by our own home made brand of scum. As someone who has many friends from the extended Traveler community I think it is important that we see the other side of it before we brand them all with the brush that many do.
Good post.
I think Nally was in an impossible position. There was something primeval about the struggle between the 2 men- the farmer in his 60s and the assailant in his 40s. Nothing good could come out of it. And the law is often very poor in such cases.
He was convicted of manslaughter anyway although it was subsequently quashed.
http://bocktherobber.com/2006/12/padraig-nally/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_John_Ward
"Sentencing Nally to six years for the manslaughter conviction, Mr Justice Paul Carney said: "This is undoubtedly the most socially divisive case I have had to try. It is also the most difficult one in which I have had to impose sentence.".[9] The judge said he would take into consideration Nally's unblemished past, his low-risk of re-offending, his willingness to show remorse for his crime and the fact that the prosecution's case was based largely on testaments given by the farmer."
Let's remove the term traveler and replace it with bad f**ker. If you shot a bad f**ker who had been terrorizing you before you shot him- and you didn't kill him is there an argument that you have to go finish him off otherwise you're going to have it even worse than you did before - and your life will well be in danger after the first shooting? Is it still self defence, if you are concerned about the retaliation?
I would have the same concerns. You are allowed to use "reasonable force" (or some such term) to defend yourself. However, like you correctly say - in this case if Nally wounds this man and he escapes there's every likelihood that he returns in the near future looking for retribution. Barring 24hr surveillance there is absolutely feck all that the agents of the law can/will do to prevent this. It's a difficult one...
Solution (the humane one, anyway) - gypo island.
Quote from: Franko on October 27, 2014, 04:12:00 PM
I would have the same concerns. You are allowed to use "reasonable force" (or some such term) to defend yourself. However, like you correctly say - in this case if Nally wounds this man and he escapes there's every likelihood that he returns in the near future looking for retribution. Barring 24hr surveillance there is absolutely feck all that the agents of the law can/will do to prevent this. It's a difficult one...
In this particular case there was plenty they could have done. There were 4 bench warrants active at the time, including one for attacking a Garda with a slash hook.
Quote from: BennyCake on October 27, 2014, 07:50:00 PM
Solution (the humane one, anyway) - gypo island.
There were a good few travelers in my class in Primary school. To stop wasting time on picking teams we would sometimes play the travelers if there was enough of them to make a team.
One day we ran out for morning break and we asked what teams should we pick. One of the lads shouted "let's play the knackers against the human beings".
The fella that said it turned out to be the most successful person in our class. When asked what he wanted to be when he grew up he said he wanted to be a butcher. We wanted to be astronauts and doctors. The only one to realise his ambition.
Quote from: BennyCake on October 27, 2014, 07:50:00 PM
Solution (the humane one, anyway) - gypo island.
Yer wan horrible human being, ye nazi, fascist bastard of a person
You are labelling people. Never a good thing to do.
Quote from: theticklemister on October 27, 2014, 08:44:08 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 27, 2014, 07:50:00 PM
Solution (the humane one, anyway) - gypo island.
Yer wan horrible human being, ye nazi, fascist b**tard of a person
A nazi AND a fascist bastard just for hating gypos?? ;D
Quote from: BennyCake on October 27, 2014, 10:23:47 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on October 27, 2014, 08:44:08 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 27, 2014, 07:50:00 PM
Solution (the humane one, anyway) - gypo island.
Yer wan horrible human being, ye nazi, fascist b**tard of a person
A nazi AND a fascist b**tard just for hating gypos?? ;D
well a racist anyway
An ignorant one at that
Quote from: BennyCake on October 27, 2014, 10:23:47 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on October 27, 2014, 08:44:08 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 27, 2014, 07:50:00 PM
Solution (the humane one, anyway) - gypo island.
Yer wan horrible human being, ye nazi, fascist b**tard of a person
A nazi AND a fascist b**tard just for hating gypos?? ;D
Why do you hate travellers so much? Sounds personal?
When did travellers become a race? At what point in time did they fulfil the criteria?
Some of ye do-gooders would want to cop yourselves on. Nally had no choice but to do what he did, fair play to him for doing it. Not only did he solve his own problem but he saved many others from having to suffer at the hands of that yolk and maybe made some others think twice before carrying on like that.
If that makes me "racist" or whatever then great, I'll embrace it. It would also make hundreds of thousands of other Irish people "racist".
Quote from: theticklemister on October 27, 2014, 08:51:16 PM
You are labelling people. Never a good thing to do.
Says the fella who called someone a nazi fascist bastard...
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 27, 2014, 11:49:14 PM
When did travellers become a race? At what point in time did they fulfil the criteria?
Some of ye do-gooders would want to cop yourselves on. Nally had no choice but to do what he did, fair play to him for doing it. Not only did he solve his own problem but he saved many others from having to suffer at the hands of that yolk and maybe made some others think twice before carrying on like that.
If that makes me "racist" or whatever then great, I'll embrace it. It would also make hundreds of thousands of other Irish people "racist".
+1
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 27, 2014, 11:52:29 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on October 27, 2014, 08:51:16 PM
You are labelling people. Never a good thing to do.
Says the fella who called someone a nazi fascist b**tard...
Exactly.
Quote from: Owenmoresider on October 28, 2014, 12:05:41 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 27, 2014, 11:49:14 PM
When did travellers become a race? At what point in time did they fulfil the criteria?
Some of ye do-gooders would want to cop yourselves on. Nally had no choice but to do what he did, fair play to him for doing it. Not only did he solve his own problem but he saved many others from having to suffer at the hands of that yolk and maybe made some others think twice before carrying on like that.
If that makes me "racist" or whatever then great, I'll embrace it. It would also make hundreds of thousands of other Irish people "racist".
+1
+2
Quote from: moysider on October 27, 2014, 10:50:51 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 27, 2014, 10:23:47 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on October 27, 2014, 08:44:08 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 27, 2014, 07:50:00 PM
Solution (the humane one, anyway) - gypo island.
Yer wan horrible human being, ye nazi, fascist b**tard of a person
A nazi AND a fascist b**tard just for hating gypos?? ;D
Why do you hate travellers so much? Sounds personal?
I don't hate travellers. I hate gypos.
Plenty of dealings with them. A bunch of scumbags, the lot of them.. They're all bred the same way.
Quote from: muppet on October 27, 2014, 07:52:46 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 27, 2014, 04:12:00 PM
I would have the same concerns. You are allowed to use "reasonable force" (or some such term) to defend yourself. However, like you correctly say - in this case if Nally wounds this man and he escapes there's every likelihood that he returns in the near future looking for retribution. Barring 24hr surveillance there is absolutely feck all that the agents of the law can/will do to prevent this. It's a difficult one...
In this particular case there was plenty they could have done. There were 4 bench warrants active at the time, including one for attacking a Garda with a slash hook.
How do you put faith in a system that allows someone to run free on 4 bench warrants, including one for attacking a garda with a slash hook (should be attempted murder)?
Quote from: BennyCake on October 28, 2014, 12:34:24 AM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on October 28, 2014, 12:05:41 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 27, 2014, 11:49:14 PM
When did travellers become a race? At what point in time did they fulfil the criteria?
Some of ye do-gooders would want to cop yourselves on. Nally had no choice but to do what he did, fair play to him for doing it. Not only did he solve his own problem but he saved many others from having to suffer at the hands of that yolk and maybe made some others think twice before carrying on like that.
If that makes me "racist" or whatever then great, I'll embrace it. It would also make hundreds of thousands of other Irish people "racist".
+1
+2
It just shows you the poor state of affairs our country is in if they think this is acceptable.
Yes, I put a label on him for his exact remarks. The said person put a label on a group of people which he doesn't know.
TTM are you a traveller?
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 27, 2014, 09:04:11 AM
This case is unfortunately a 'difficult' case to base any laws or analysis of laws upon, as the old maxim goes Hard cases make bad law. Nally was tortured and that is a given, he reacted when he shot them but he then reloaded and followed Ward down the lane to deliver the fatal shot when Ward was escaping. That to me takes it out of the realms of defending your property and into the realms of murder. Also the fact that Ward was a Traveler adds a whole other layer to it. Would the reaction have been the same if it had been a hood shot as opposed to a 'gypo'? Somehow I don't think so. This case shows up a lot of the latent racism that is rife in Ireland and has always been there. It is the product of a 99% single identity, mono-cultural, conservative, slightly right of centre up bringing that the majority of the population have experienced. The case of Padraig Nally should be analysed on it's own merits and not as part of a back drop to a 'fear of gypos'. Travelers have a history of crime but if any of you sit in the courts during the day you'll find the majority of crimes are carried out by our own home made brand of scum. As someone who has many friends from the extended Traveler community I think it is important that we see the other side of it before we brand them all with the brush that many do.
just to clarify the course of events in relation to nally's acquittal. he was initially charged with murder and tried in castlebar. the judge, justice Carney instructed the jury that they could not acquit him, the least severe option open to them was guilty of manslaughter. this was what happened and he went to jail.
this decision was challenged and overturned on the basis of that instruction to the jury. there was then a full retrial in Dublin. he was here acquitted of all charges on the basis of self defence. this was despite the fact that he shot, reloaded and shot again. the thinking behind this was that if Frog Ward got away, on the balance of probabilities he would have returned and killed nally, his son (wards) was nearby.
in my opinion this is a reasonable conclusion to come to, if Nally had not killed ward at that point then ward would have killed him, this is the decision the jury, who heard all the evidence came to, and not a local jury a Dublin jury.
Wasn't aware of this gc - that seems an entirely reasonable conclusion to reach.
Quote from: guy crouchback on October 28, 2014, 09:35:00 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 27, 2014, 09:04:11 AM
This case is unfortunately a 'difficult' case to base any laws or analysis of laws upon, as the old maxim goes Hard cases make bad law. Nally was tortured and that is a given, he reacted when he shot them but he then reloaded and followed Ward down the lane to deliver the fatal shot when Ward was escaping. That to me takes it out of the realms of defending your property and into the realms of murder. Also the fact that Ward was a Traveler adds a whole other layer to it. Would the reaction have been the same if it had been a hood shot as opposed to a 'gypo'? Somehow I don't think so. This case shows up a lot of the latent racism that is rife in Ireland and has always been there. It is the product of a 99% single identity, mono-cultural, conservative, slightly right of centre up bringing that the majority of the population have experienced. The case of Padraig Nally should be analysed on it's own merits and not as part of a back drop to a 'fear of gypos'. Travelers have a history of crime but if any of you sit in the courts during the day you'll find the majority of crimes are carried out by our own home made brand of scum. As someone who has many friends from the extended Traveler community I think it is important that we see the other side of it before we brand them all with the brush that many do.
just to clarify the course of events in relation to nally's acquittal. he was initially charged with murder and tried in castlebar. the judge, justice Carney instructed the jury that they could not acquit him, the least severe option open to them was guilty of manslaughter. this was what happened and he went to jail.
this decision was challenged and overturned on the basis of that instruction to the jury. there was then a full retrial in Dublin. he was here acquitted of all charges on the basis of self defence. this was despite the fact that he shot, reloaded and shot again. the thinking behind this was that if Frog Ward got away, on the balance of probabilities he would have returned and killed nally, his son (wards) was nearby.
in my opinion this is a reasonable conclusion to come to, if Nally had not killed ward at that point then ward would have killed him, this is the decision the jury, who heard all the evidence came to, and not a local jury a Dublin jury.
That is reasonable to a point but surely the mindset of Nally should have been assessed and not Ward in determining what might happen. Did Nally know his sons were nearby? Did Ward threaten him that he was going to come back and kill him? How far away were his sons? How badly was he injured? I don't know the answers to these questions but they are very relevant in determining the mindset.
indeed. i don't know the answer to these questions either but i assume they were teased out during the trial before the jury.
Now hould on there Guy and BC, you are looking at the individual circumstances of what actually happened in an effort to see what decisions were made on the fateful night and in the Courts.
That is not in the spirit of this thread, only broad brush generalisations are acceptable, the more extreme the better.
Quote from: theticklemister on October 28, 2014, 09:15:46 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 28, 2014, 12:34:24 AM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on October 28, 2014, 12:05:41 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 27, 2014, 11:49:14 PM
When did travellers become a race? At what point in time did they fulfil the criteria?
Some of ye do-gooders would want to cop yourselves on. Nally had no choice but to do what he did, fair play to him for doing it. Not only did he solve his own problem but he saved many others from having to suffer at the hands of that yolk and maybe made some others think twice before carrying on like that.
If that makes me "racist" or whatever then great, I'll embrace it. It would also make hundreds of thousands of other Irish people "racist".
+1
+2
It just shows you the poor state of affairs our country is in if they think this is acceptable.
Yes, I put a label on him for his exact remarks. The said person put a label on a group of people which he doesn't know.
I know plenty of them. Myself and my family have had to contend with them on a daily basis: living beside them, education, places of recreation and employment. Some of the things we have witnessed and put up with is disgusting. The authorities don't want to know. They do what they like, when they like. They drive around robbing and thieving, they prey on vulnerable people, do half-arsed jobs for and rip them off with hundreds if not thousands of pounds. They are feckin menaces on the road, endangering countless lives, and the cops sit back and allow it. I've seen it myself. They are all brought up with the same cunning, sneaky, thieving attitude, every f**king one of them.
So don't sit ther and tell me I don't know gypos. Try living next door to a squad of them and I guarantee you'll change your attitude.
Quote from: BennyCake on October 28, 2014, 04:45:19 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on October 28, 2014, 09:15:46 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 28, 2014, 12:34:24 AM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on October 28, 2014, 12:05:41 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on October 27, 2014, 11:49:14 PM
When did travellers become a race? At what point in time did they fulfil the criteria?
Some of ye do-gooders would want to cop yourselves on. Nally had no choice but to do what he did, fair play to him for doing it. Not only did he solve his own problem but he saved many others from having to suffer at the hands of that yolk and maybe made some others think twice before carrying on like that.
If that makes me "racist" or whatever then great, I'll embrace it. It would also make hundreds of thousands of other Irish people "racist".
+1
+2
It just shows you the poor state of affairs our country is in if they think this is acceptable.
Yes, I put a label on him for his exact remarks. The said person put a label on a group of people which he doesn't know.
I know plenty of them. Myself and my family have had to contend with them on a daily basis: living beside them, education, places of recreation and employment. Some of the things we have witnessed and put up with is disgusting. The authorities don't want to know. They do what they like, when they like. They drive around robbing and thieving, they prey on vulnerable people, do half-arsed jobs for and rip them off with hundreds if not thousands of pounds. They are feckin menaces on the road, endangering countless lives, and the cops sit back and allow it. I've seen it myself. They are all brought up with the same cunning, sneaky, thieving attitude, every f**king one of them.
So don't sit ther and tell me I don't know gypos. Try living next door to a squad of them and I guarantee you'll change your attitude.
Everyone of them? Including the wee lad in a wheelchair who was severely paralysed who we had the honour of playing music at his first communion in Warrington?
This case had nothing to do with Ward being a traveller, the same would apply if he were non-traveller.
Some of the comments on here are well out of order - the same kind of thinking that was going on down in Waterfordyesterday when those Roma families were attacked.