Can't wait. I was very confident of a Cork win after Tipp beat Dublin, but as the game gets closer I'm getting less confident. I think Tipp have one very good game in them amd if it comes on Sunday they could beat us. What does everyone on here think?
50/50 Game which will take on a life of its own. HIgh scoring, puck of a ball in it in the end and anyone can win it.
Seeing Tipp and Cork playing in Croke Park will be odd.
The atmosphere there usually isn't a patch on Munster. The banter beforehand, the walk to the ground, the sense of history and tradition. That's all diluted in Dublin.
Tipp have finally tightened up in the backline and our forwards are motoring nicely.
We ran riot against Galway when the game was up for grabs and beat Dublin in 3rd gear which is why I'm optimistic about Sunday.
It will be an interesting one. Tipp's great weakness in my opinion is the ball wining of the half forward line, and the dodginess of Paudie Maher at full back. Against Dublin, Paudie was put on a man marking job on Keaney and when Conal went out the field from the start, that suited Paudie down to the ground. I think Daly should have told Keaney to go to the edge of the square. So I'm not sure if they really have sorted it out or not.
I don't know that Cork's half back line is a physically dominating line of the field, so the Tipp forwards might get a bit more joy there, but I don't think Tipp's backs will have seen the speed of the Cork forwards so far.
As I said, interesting, but I think Tipp still have to improve by a good bit in order to win this. Goals win games like this though, and maybe Tipp have more goals in them than cork. Any word on Pa Cronin? He'd be a huge loss for Cork, and I'd nearly go so far as to say the result might hinge on whether he's there or not.
Quote from: Premier Emperor on August 15, 2014, 09:40:27 AM
Seeing Tipp and Cork playing in Croke Park will be odd.
The atmosphere there usually isn't a patch on Munster. The banter beforehand, the walk to the ground, the sense of history and tradition. That's all diluted in Dublin.
Tipp have finally tightened up in the backline and our forwards are motoring nicely.
We ran riot against Galway when the game was up for grabs and beat Dublin in 3rd gear which is why I'm optimistic about Sunday.
Maybe so many years ago when Munster hurling was knockout. With backdoor now the atmosphere in MHC has gone down the tubes imo. There will be a great atmosphere in CP .
Fany Tipp to win this one easily and win the AI tbh.
Why/how 'easily' Canalman? I've seen nothing to suggest Tipp will win easily.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2014, 12:26:15 PM
Why/how 'easily' Canalman? I've seen nothing to suggest Tipp will win easily.
Think they have the wind in their sails after the qualifiers and Cork will find it slow to get to the pace of the game after their break. Tipp imo always have the hurlers and I think this year they have the attitude also .
JBM is a brilliant manager but whether that is enough for Cork I have my doubts.
May be proven wrong as usual.
Tipp always have hurlers, and some of their flicks and running can be devastating, but I think they probably have too many lads that like to stay out, get the flicked ball and score a beautiful point or goal. They don't have enough piano carriers to borrow a phrase from another thread. Bonner is vital to them of course, but Gearoid Ryan hasn't really imposed himself, nor has Noel McGrath. Callanan has had a good year, Corbett is still dangerous but flits in and out of games. Bubbles O'Dwyer may be their best forward actually at the moment.
Lads like Denis Maher are better at winning ball, but their usage can be questionable.
I think Tipp can win it, but I'd be nervous of Cork and their speed if I were Tipp.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 15, 2014, 12:26:15 PM
Why/how 'easily' Canalman? I've seen nothing to suggest Tipp will win easily.
I don't get this either, what is there to suggest on current form that Tipp will win easily.
They capitulated to an in your face Limerick, rallied by beating a well off the pace Offaly, seeing off Galway in the latter stages of the game when they'd lost a few of their main men to injury and accounted for what looked like a dis-interested Dublin well enough.
Now they have shown signs of improvement since their first day out in Munster, but in Cork they'll be facing a serious set of forwards will plenty of pace and ball winning ability, plus whilst theres still question marks against the Cork defence, they are indeed a better unit than they were this time last year, Joyce is better suited to the wing and there's no doubt that Ellis will have his work cut out in taking on bonner Maher, but for all the goings on against Dublin, Callinan was pretty subdued by Kelly, and only got a few points when he roamed out a bit, picking up a few scraps, he'll need to get closer to goals than that on Sunday and Cahalane will be stuck to him like shit to a blanket, ditto O'Neill on Lar, who has been playing well enough for Tipp.
There's quite a lot being made of the fact Tipp didn't concede a goal vrs Dublin as some sort of improvement, but Dublin are not renowned for goal getting, whereas Cork are, so we'll see how that improvement works out.
Whilst I still think Tipp have a very good chance to win, but in my mind they'll need an awful lot to go right for them and Cork would have to be favourites to come out on top.
Cork are 10/11, Tipp are 11/10 with Powers, and that's sort of how I'd see it too. If Cronin is out, I'd nearly go evens the pair.
The more I think about, the more I can't see Tipp losing!
11/10 is a great price.
Quote from: Premier Emperor on August 15, 2014, 02:18:27 PM
The more I think about, the more I can't see Tipp losing!
11/10 is a great price.
If you were a Tipp man saying anything different I'd be very surprised :) It's like the old saying, " A Tipp man with an inferiority complex thinks he's only a bit better than everyone else". :D
Pa Cronin named in the team and if he's namednin the team I'd be 99% sure he's playing, JBM doesn't do "dummy teams".
Personally I'd prefer to see Paudie O'Sullivan start instead but you'd think Pa will cause more problems for Paudie Maher. Having said that I can't see Maher starting full back, probably James Barry will. I think Corks chances revolve around their ability to keep Bonner Maher quiet. This will be Mark Ellis' biggest challenge and if he can do it, I can only see a Cork win.
Looking forward to it anyway, should be a great game. Up the Rebels!
Since Cork beat Waterford in the replay I've fancied Cork to make the final. Cork for me to win tomorrow and to beat KK in the final which might be a bold prediction.
Ref helping to give Cork that bit of momentum. Tipp forwards don't look as if they have the belief to beat Cork
Too many poor wides by Cork so far, plenty left in them but they will have to work harder playing against the wind.
Quote from: theskull1 on August 17, 2014, 04:08:47 PM
Ref helping to give Cork that bit of momentum. Tipp forwards don't look as if they have the belief to beat Cork
I thought the ref was giving Cork a couple of handy ones
Tipp forwards starting to go into their shell. Hurling wall stuff at times. They need to step up.
Callanan and Corbett offering Tipp nothing, both them are exhibition game hurlers. Bonner Maher having his worst game in a Tipp jersey too. Nicky English feels Tipp should be well ahead but I'd be worried if I were a Tipp fan as Cork have more room for improvement and are only 2 points behind. If Cork find their form in the second half I expect them to pull away. I feel Tipp will need at least one more goal to win this.
Callinan is getting nudged before every ball that comes in and o'neill getting away with it...
Tipp haven't enough ball winners in their forward line.
Disappointing game so far.
Bought that free
I.e. Dived.
By the way Zulu, I think it's off the mark to say callanan offers nothing, he is a scorer.
Right on cue!
Well there's the second goal and Cork have been worse if anythikngin this half.
AZ, he did exactly what he does, exhibition stiff but if he added a bit of steel to his game then Tipp would be miles ahead already. He doesn't win enough of the 50:50 stuff but put hi in a bit of space and he looks like the best hurler in the country.
Very disappointing game though.
But that's what he offers. You said he offers nothing. Tipps problem is they probably have 4 seamie callanan and only 2 bonners. Their backs are immense and now that paudie is away from the edge of the square.
When Tipp get their tails up they are hard held. All those exhibition forwards do fierce damage in that scenario.
This lad coming on is a ball winner. I think he would help address that balance.
I think you're smart enough AZ to understand I didn't mean two inter county players like Corbett and Callanan offer absolutely nothing. But you would expect two big full forwards to win more of the 50:50 ball than these boys did in the first half.
I don't know with you sometimes. :)
Great performance by Tipp. Fair play to the manager - he got a lot of stick last year. It's a funny old game.
Callinan and Corbett will get nothing v the Kilkenny backs.
They cannot win enough dirty ball
I must say I didn't see that coming, fair play to Tipp. I hope they do the business in 3 weeks time. As seafoid said credit to the manager, there were people in Tipp calling for his head earlier on I believe.
Thought Cork were shocking, twas the worst preformance by an IC hurling side I've ever seen. That includes the teams that Kilkenny used to hammer. Tipp weren't even that good and tanked them.
Quote from: trileacman on August 17, 2014, 05:03:15 PM
Thought Cork were shocking, twas the worst preformance by an IC hurling side I've ever seen. That includes the teams that Kilkenny used to hammer. Tipp weren't even that good and tanked them.
Cork need to buck up underage because they are not the proposition they would have been in the past. Very flaky the last few years since the 06 changing of the guard.
Yeah...Cork were brutal. Nothing looked right with them the whole game.
Corbett should probably be dropped though obviously not callinan.
Cork were brutal but I don't think they're as bad as that showing. Completely out of it at midfield despite the reckoning they would lord it.
They could easily have won an ai last year and haven't become a bad team overnight. Only about 3 or 4 players showed up.
Let's be honest, Cork came from no where last year. Looked Like JB was working a bit of magic but didn't happen today. But don't forget where Tipp were a couple of years ago. Obviously the new management has been key to getting them up again. Would Cork lose by the same margin next year? I doubt it. This is def a progressive Cork team but unfortunately Tipp had their homework done. Good management.
Thought Donal og a bit bitter.
Quote from: dowling on August 17, 2014, 10:44:41 PM
Let's be honest, Cork came from no where last year. Looked Like JB was working a bit of magic but didn't happen today. But don't forget where Tipp were a couple of years ago. Obviously the new management has been key to getting them up again. Would Cork lose by the same margin next year? I doubt it. This is def a progressive Cork team but unfortunately Tipp had their homework done. Good management.
Thought Donal og a bit bitter.
Cork lost the semifinal in 2012 so they had a bit of croke park experience.
With everything that has happened in Cork over the last few years it would be a big ask for Cork to be at the top table at the minute.
JB has no doubt taken them on but there is def work to be done.
Who did they beat in the quarter final that year?
Quote from: dowling on August 17, 2014, 10:44:41 PM
Let's be honest, Cork came from no where last year. Looked Like JB was working a bit of magic but didn't happen today. But don't forget where Tipp were a couple of years ago. Obviously the new management has been key to getting them up again. Would Cork lose by the same margin next year? I doubt it. This is def a progressive Cork team but unfortunately Tipp had their homework done. Good management.
Thought Donal og a bit bitter.
Donal was not bitter toward Tipp. More toward the set up in his own county. He compared the current structures in Cork to Dublin. This is a running theme at this stage.
I meant towards Cork. Sorry if that didn't come across.
Seemed to me he was using the TV to carry on his crusade of yesteryear.
He was critical but don't think he was too wrong either in terms of setup. Perhaps a bit harsh on aidan walsh though and maybe a wee dig on dual players too.
Looking back cork midfield were hammered and the likes of maher was hugely dominant. maybe some moves there would have helped.
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 17, 2014, 11:09:22 PM
He was critical but don't think he was too wrong either in terms of setup. Perhaps a bit harsh on aidan walsh though and maybe a wee dig on dual players too.
Looking back cork midfield were hammered and the likes of maher was hugely dominant. maybe some moves there would have helped.
Cork got it wrong on the line too.
Quote from: INDIANA on August 17, 2014, 11:10:34 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 17, 2014, 11:09:22 PM
He was critical but don't think he was too wrong either in terms of setup. Perhaps a bit harsh on aidan walsh though and maybe a wee dig on dual players too.
Looking back cork midfield were hammered and the likes of maher was hugely dominant. maybe some moves there would have helped.
Cork got it wrong on the line too.
Yeah sorry that was what i meant.
Midfield should have been changed and the hf line should have been shook up too.
Watching on sky plus-only seeing the rants now on the structures. Sounds bit like reillers who used to rant on here.
My point tommy
Yep i agree. Sorry one step behind on sky plus.
Hickey a good analyst.
Standard of analysis so much better in the hurling.
Glad to see you agreeing with me tommy
Surprised at the criticism of Callanan on here. I thought he was superb and one won a fair bit of 50/50 ball when he wasn't being fouled by O Neill. And he was the match winner again. Not sure what qualifies as an exhibition but it was he who dragged them back into it against Galway when they were 6 points down and on their way out. He took a couple of heavy knocks yesterday too, diving in for "dirty ball" so I don't get that criticism either. He has it all - lightning fast, brilliant skill and touch, powerful shot off either side and he's great in the air too.
Bonnar is a brilliant ball-winner and distributor but sometimes goes on impossible solo runs into traffic that always result in a turnover.
Reckon Tipperary are the real deal this year. They have discarded the wristbands, miraculous medals and roaring and fist clenching when they get a free and are the better for it imo.
A joy to watch when they are motoring. Forwardline virtually unmarkabe when they are song.
Have reduced Dublin and Cork to quivering stuttering hurlers in recent weeks and I cannot see them being troubled by Kilkenny.
Could win it very handily as I just don't think KK are the force they were some years ago.
Quote from: Asal Mor on August 18, 2014, 12:22:35 PM
Surprised at the criticism of Callanan on here. I thought he was superb and one won a fair bit of 50/50 ball when he wasn't being fouled by O Neill. And he was the match winner again. Not sure what qualifies as an exhibition but it was he who dragged them back into it against Galway when they were 6 points down and on their way out. He took a couple of heavy knocks yesterday too, diving in for "dirty ball" so I don't get that criticism either. He has it all - lightning fast, brilliant skill and touch, powerful shot off either side and he's great in the air too.
Bonnar is a brilliant ball-winner and distributor but sometimes goes on impossible solo runs into traffic that always result in a turnover.
Asal, I like Callanan, I've always felt that he got a hard time of it from Tipp fans but he is what he is. If he can play loose and in front, he will win ball, but I don't think he will win many 50-50s against a tough full back if they are dropped in on top of him. Yesterday in the first half Tipp played their corner forwards out, and tried to isolate Callanan on O'Neill. I don't think it really worked, even the goal came from a mistake by O'Neill on a crossfield pass.
If Tipp hit high balls in between JJ and Seamie Callanan, I predict JJ will win at least 85% of them. Where they could get joy, and which would suit Callinan more in my view, is if they withdraw the forwards, and then hit diagonal ball in towards the corners for Callanan to take JJ on a run. That won't suit Delaney, and will suit Callanan down to the ground.
Quote from: Canalman on August 18, 2014, 12:34:03 PM
Reckon Tipperary are the real deal this year. They have discarded the wristbands, miraculous medals and roaring and fist clenching when they get a free and are the better for it imo.
A joy to watch when they are motoring. Forwardline virtually unmarkabe when they are song.
Have reduced Dublin and Cork to quivering stuttering hurlers in recent weeks and I cannot see them being troubled by Kilkenny.
Could win it very handily as I just don't think KK are the force they were some years ago.
Fair play Canalman, you called that right, although in my defence, when Cork were sweeping Tipp half forwards aside in the first half, their wides killed them.
I think tipp are playing very, very well from 1-9. However I still think they have huge problems in the forward line. When they cut loose they are great, but they just have far too many spells where they are swept aside. Bubbles Dwyer and Seamus Callanan are pure scorers, and well worth their place in any side in my view. However they are not great ball winners. Gearoid Ryan and Bonner Maher are supposed to fill that role, although Ryan played far deeper on Sunday. Lar Corbett is blowing hot and cold, often in the same game, and I just don't trust him to play well against Kilkenny. He may well do so, but I've seen nothing that says he will so far this year. Finally Noel McGrath is having a bad year. He's not winning ball, and he's not scoring. By my reckoning you have 2 ball winners, 2 scorers and 2 others that are doing neither really. The problem for Tipp is who do you bring in? If Niall O'Meara gets fit he's an option. Denis Maher is a ball winner, but he has some brain farts when it comes to distribution/shooting. Young Forde has a chance, but he is raw. Eoin Kelly is gone.
With Mickey Cahill, Conor O'Mahoney and Paul Curran all on the bench, Tipp have solid options for defence. They can look at Brendan Maher and Kieran Bergin for midfield if they struggle there, but it's hard to see what obvious improvements can be made on the forwards. I'd be inclined to fire Denis Maher into the half forward line, in place of Noel McGrath (who almost always swaps around with Bonner Maher).
Cork were septic yesterday. Their touch was abysmal. Lost count of the amount of times they miscontrolled the ball under no pressure and ended up getting dispossessed and obviously their shooting was just as bad especially in the first half. Rarely seen a team look so bad after a 5 week lay off. Whatever they did in the meantime they were a long long way from match sharpness yesterday. Tipp were good in fairness but think you have to take Cork's ineptness on the day into account. Would still fancy Kilkenny in the final. They actually beat a team who played very well in their semi-final.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 18, 2014, 12:45:04 PM
Asal, I like Callanan, I've always felt that he got a hard time of it from Tipp fans but he is what he is. If he can play loose and in front, he will win ball, but I don't think he will win many 50-50s against a tough full back if they are dropped in on top of him. Yesterday in the first half Tipp played their corner forwards out, and tried to isolate Callanan on O'Neill. I don't think it really worked, even the goal came from a mistake by O'Neill on a crossfield pass.
If Tipp hit high balls in between JJ and Seamie Callanan, I predict JJ will win at least 85% of them. Where they could get joy, and which would suit Callinan more in my view, is if they withdraw the forwards, and then hit diagonal ball in towards the corners for Callanan to take JJ on a run. That won't suit Delaney, and will suit Callanan down to the ground.
I agree that the first-half high ball tactics were a disaster for Tipp and if their backs hadn't been so dominant it would have cost them, but there's not really any full-forward who can win that kind of aimless ball against a clever full-back, who'll just obstruct him like Shane O' Neill did yesterday. I think Callanan has a bit of a rep for being flaky and soft and he has certainly underachieved until this year for the talent he has but I don't think he lacks bravery. He has the ability and the physical attributes to be the best forward in the game but I think Tipp have been very quick to bench him in past years.
I agree that Tipp have made him a scapegoat, but I've seen a fair bit of him this past few years and I definitely think he prefers the diagonal that he can run onto. He'll win the 60-40/70-30s but I don't think he wins his fair share of 50-50s. That said, I'd always have him on that team and I've said it for a while.
Tipps targeting of Callanan in the first half with the high ball in looked a very one dimensional tactic as the Cork backs swamped it every time and turned a lot of ball off it even when Callanan did (rarely) win possession. Very rarely was there a Tipp player first on the breaking ball. Callanan made hay when he dropped off O'Neill and had space to run at him/goal. In close quarters he didn't make that much good use of the ball although he made 2 superb catches and got wired in. I'd say he's lost the windy hurler tag now surely.
I think Corks performance level was so below par that it's made Tipp look much better than they are. How for instance would they have reacted if Cork had their shooting boots on in the first half? It's debatable. There's still a fragility about them that I think the cats can exploit. Gleesons puckouts and Tipps handling looked sublime it has to be said, but was enough pressure being applied to force mistakes? It's hard to know
Quote from: dowling on August 17, 2014, 10:54:46 PM
With everything that has happened in Cork over the last few years it would be a big ask for Cork to be at the top table at the minute.
JB has no doubt taken them on but there is def work to be done.
Who did they beat in the quarter final that year?
Waterford by a goal in Thurles.
They beat Kilkenny in Thurles (was a double header with Clare v Galway)
Kilkenny had knocked out Waterford earlier
He was talking about 2012 I think.
Cork had a complete off day on Sunday. It's easy to throw out the 5 week break and dual player issue when you lose but Kilkenny haven't had a problem with the long break and no-one was mentioning dual players problem after they won Munster. It was just a bad day for them that can't really be explained that much. It happens in sport sometimes.
Well who seen that one coming? (Other than Premier Emperor, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day)
Firstly well played Tipp and Eamon O'Shea who got it right more often than not on Sunday, ably assisted by one of the worst Cork performances seen in many's a day.
Yeah, they were nervous, made some silly decisions in the first half, but they were hurling far better than Cork, but to go in only a goal to the good at half time must have been a bit jittery with the normal train of thought being that Cork couldn't be as bad in the second half, but oh yes they were.
Firstly as already pointed out, both teams adopted the same tactic of trying to isolate the big man in a two man full forward line, Cork had the better target man in Cronin, but the ball in was terrible, especially the shot selection of Aidan Walsh, who gave the forwards sweet FA to work with and accounted for some poor wides. At the other end, Callanan wasn't so effective under the dropping ball but for the life of me Cork allowed Paudie Maher of all people a free reign and he was putting in dipping ball which the Tipp forwards were able to work with and in all fairness should have did more with in the first half and finally in the second half cut loose to run out easy victors.
It has to be said Owens gifted Cork some soft scores in the first half and made some strange decisions throughout but as the intensity of the game dropped off he got away with it.
Tipps dominance in their half backs in Bergin and Maher in particular was the platform to firstly take the pressure off their full back line and good use of the ball into the forwards ably assisted by Woodlock and Shane McGrath who were given the freedom of the park, I know the modern game is all about possession and stats, but surely there is still a place for man marking as all too often someone was putting the ball over the bar or passing with absolutely no one near them to apply pressure.
It would be very hard to believe that Kilkenny will retreat down the pitch so far as to allow their opponents total dominance of such a large part of the field, leaving whatever forwards left up there to forage against all the odds, but that's what it looked as if Cork had did.
As for Donal O'G's wee dig at all and sundry that evening on the Sunday game, picking out the dual players was unfair as a lot of the lads 100% dedicated to the hurling also had mares, so what was their excuse? At the same time if these lads are only giving 50% to hurling where are the other lads giving 100% to hurling, surely they'd be better, no?
The centre of excellence with two pitches and 5 full time coaches are valid points lost in a dig at Frank Murphys monument he all but came out and said.
Sometimes Donal lets himself down, but he knew not to direct any criticism at JBM, that's a bridge too far for Donal O'G and only the openness of Seamus Hickey alluded to what he felt were fundamental mistakes made by Cork and their management which I think we all but knew they'd made.
As for Tipp heres hoping they really have a go at Kilkenny, don't go in too defensive minded as this is not the same Kilkenny team of two years ago and the invincibility has gone from them and give us a hum dinger of a final.
As a manager in the past I've used the tactic of bring an extra man into defence, it was done largely to give the team confidence and not get hammered by the bigger teams in the Antrim leagues, it worked well and while we didn't win too many games the lads did gain some self belief that they could for large periods of the games compete, against the teams of our ability we did go 15 on 15.
After a while we only used this for the first half and went 15 on 15 in the second half.
If this tactic was used on me by a 'lesser' team I would always push the extra man up on theirs (as long as I had confidence on my main defender marking their main man) but allowing the other team time to pick out passes to their 2 man ff line is crazy. Not too many tactics can be used in hurling like football, the speed of the delivery into the forwards or the ability to hit long cross field passes can cut out a lot of tactics (if done right) Kilkenny's only ever tactic I ever see them do is the roving HF line and FF line where they interchange with each other and on the opposition puck outs the wing half forwards go deep looking for it or the break ball. this usually allows a short puck out, which can be dangerous
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 19, 2014, 12:25:26 PM
As a manager in the past I've used the tactic of bring an extra man into defence, it was done largely to give the team confidence and not get hammered by the bigger teams in the Antrim leagues, it worked well and while we didn't win too many games the lads did gain some self belief that they could for large periods of the games compete, against the teams of our ability we did go 15 on 15.
After a while we only used this for the first half and went 15 on 15 in the second half.
If this tactic was used on me by a 'lesser' team I would always push the extra man up on theirs (as long as I had confidence on my main defender marking their main man) but allowing the other team time to pick out passes to their 2 man ff line is crazy. Not too many tactics can be used in hurling like football, the speed of the delivery into the forwards or the ability to hit long cross field passes can cut out a lot of tactics (if done right) Kilkenny's only ever tactic I ever see them do is the roving HF line and FF line where they interchange with each other and on the opposition puck outs the wing half forwards go deep looking for it or the break ball. this usually allows a short puck out, which can be dangerous
Aye, but you'd try to work it in such a way that the opponents free man is the worst hurler of the lot, normally a corner back, not feckin Paudi Maher standing on the 45 metre line, picking up lose ball and bringing it out without a challenge to midfield where he laid it on a plate for the forwards. Granted there are very few defenders about now who can't pick out a man with a pass but surely they'd be meeting a tackle before midfield.
Quote from: johnneycool on August 19, 2014, 12:32:02 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on August 19, 2014, 12:25:26 PM
As a manager in the past I've used the tactic of bring an extra man into defence, it was done largely to give the team confidence and not get hammered by the bigger teams in the Antrim leagues, it worked well and while we didn't win too many games the lads did gain some self belief that they could for large periods of the games compete, against the teams of our ability we did go 15 on 15.
After a while we only used this for the first half and went 15 on 15 in the second half.
If this tactic was used on me by a 'lesser' team I would always push the extra man up on theirs (as long as I had confidence on my main defender marking their main man) but allowing the other team time to pick out passes to their 2 man ff line is crazy. Not too many tactics can be used in hurling like football, the speed of the delivery into the forwards or the ability to hit long cross field passes can cut out a lot of tactics (if done right) Kilkenny's only ever tactic I ever see them do is the roving HF line and FF line where they interchange with each other and on the opposition puck outs the wing half forwards go deep looking for it or the break ball. this usually allows a short puck out, which can be dangerous
Aye, but you'd try to work it in such a way that the opponents free man is the worst hurler of the lot, normally a corner back, not feckin Paudi Maher standing on the 45 metre line, picking up lose ball and bringing it out without a challenge to midfield where he laid it on a plate for the forwards. Granted there are very few defenders about now who can't pick out a man with a pass but surely they'd be meeting a tackle before midfield.
Totally, any manager worth his salt would have seen what was going on! why wasn't it fixed by the Corks line, and in that regard this is were JBM came a cropper. in saying that Cork didn't seem at the races. that big gap seems to play into the team with momentum in hurling I think (even though Kilkenny won, I think Limerick were the better team)
Aidan Walsh to end his dual days at Inter - County, wonder what he will choose?
At one stage in Cork's All-Ireland quarter-final defeat to Mayo over the August bank holiday weekend Aidan Walsh went to control a ball and almost felt his senses leave him.
As it hopped a strange thought struck him. 'Should I put my toe under it or will I just pick it up,' he asked himself.A spring and summer of juggling between two elite Cork teams had, in that moment, left him in a brief state of confusion. He knew the game was up.When Walsh was replaced in the second half of Cork's All-Ireland hurling semi-final defeat to Tipperary two weeks later the decision was already made. His dual career at inter-county level was over."When I came off the field and into the dug-out I put my head down and said, 'It's not worth it'," he recalled."Jimmy (Barry-Murphy) came over and shook hands and I said that I was sorry, that it hadn't been good enough. We had played so well in the Munster Championship but then not to perform against Tipperary wasn't acceptable and wasn't good enough.Disappointing"To put in such an effort all year and then let yourself down on the big day with 70,000 people there and huge support from Cork was very disappointing. My response to that was 'never again', I'm not putting myself in that position."He will make the decision on where to give allegiance over the next few weeks. When it is made it will be final. Walsh will be sticking with that team for the rest of his senior career, he feels.He's happy he did it, he enjoyed the year but he is also satisfied that it can't be a complete success."I suppose it was very difficult when it came to the All-Ireland series, especially when we won the Munster hurling championship and it was a massive high," he recalled."Then I had to go back to the football. I played the Sligo game, played the Mayo game and had two weeks to prepare for the Tipperary game."It's not enough to prepare for an All-Ireland semi-final and my performance showed that on the field."I was lethargic and tired and I just wasn't up to the pace of it. I'm not blaming that totally and saying it's the reason that I played badly, that I didn't get enough preparation. But it is certainly a factor. I see that when we lost a game the first fellas to be blamed or to be mentioned were the dual players. Obviously we were some bit at fault but not the total reason. I just thought we were always the ones mentioned."I knew going into it at the start of the year when I made the decision to do both that all these things would come against you but like that you are just trying to do everything you could to prepare yourself right and do everything you could to be ready for the game or ready for whatever game came your way."Looking back on it, the time wasn't enough and the build-up wasn't enough and that's just the way it was. I am glad I did it now and I can look back when I am finished and say I did it."With Lee Chin committing to hurling in Wexford, Davy Fitzgerald deciding that Podge and Sean Collins can't do both in Clare and now Walsh in the process of choosing one over the other, the concept of the dual player, particularly at such elite level, looks like it's over.Walsh doesn't see it as "impossible" but now knows the scale of the drawbacks."I would say it's impossible to play both codes at 100 per cent so you're not going to play at your full potential. That's not possible in today's game with the way it's gone."At the start of the year I knew that was going to be the case that I wasn't going to be 100 per cent at both of them."He is also conscious of the how other squad members might react."At the back of your mind you're thinking the other players in the squad are saying, 'How can this man do 50 per cent of the training and I do 100 per cent of the train and he's on before me'. So there's a bit of anger there."If I was in their position, I'd be the same if a fella is coming in for half the session and getting on the team."All those things were part of it too but it's impossible to play 100 per cent at both."You're lucky if you get 75 per cent. It's all a question of how much time you get before a game."This year, having drawn against Waterford the preparation for the football wasn't great because we had two games against them and then the Clare game."So that was four or five weeks of hurling and I only got a week before the Tipperary (football) game and then two weeks for the Kerry game. You're only there for half the time so obviously your preparation can't be great."He felt his absence from the training ground with the footballers most."When you are missing so much training, you are not at one with your 'keeper or not at one with your sense of kick-outs. Kick-outs are such a vital part of the game."We were very weak winning possession around the middle third this year."That came down to not having a partnership, me not being there enough with the other midfield partner, me not being there enough with the goalkeepers so we could work on signals or we could work on movement."So that really showed throughout the year and it cost us big time, especially in the Kerry game. That's where they really killed us."Walsh admits it won't be easy choosing between two "terrific" groups but the feeling is he may lean back to the footballers with whom he has been involved with since 2010, even if that means parting with Kanturk club-mates Anthony Nash and Lorcán McLoughlin. The absence of confirmation about the hurling manager is also weighing on his mind."Whoever you don't pick you are going to miss out on. I am with the footballers for the last five or six years and I am great friends with all of them."I'm with the hurling for one year and having Anthony and Lorcan in the panel as well, two clubmen, that's a very hard decision to make. My head will be wrecked now for the next few weeks."With my career now and the age I'm at, I'd say whatever one I pick could be the one. I can't really say but I'll try and stick with it for a few years and get the most out of myself and get to the best level you can get to."Walsh is currently training with the Ireland International Rules squad who will be without the three Carlton Blues AFL players - Zac Tuohy, Ciaran Sheehan and Ciaran Byrne - as the club want to immerse them in pre-season training. - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/walsh-ends-cork-dual-days-as-he-ponders-2015-allegiance-30644025.html#sthash.Jtmhxke7.dpuf
I'd say Davy will be feeling vindicated by Walsh's decision and assessment that the dual thing isn't feasible anymore.
Totally different scenarios in Cork and Clare.
Quote from: Zulu on October 08, 2014, 08:54:23 AM
Totally different scenarios in Cork and Clare.
How so?
The Clare dual players were giving 75% of their time to hurling, Cork would have been more 50:50. Clare footballers and hurlers would rarely, if ever, both get to the latter stages of their championships, there is a good chance both of the Cork squads would do so most years. In saying that, I don't think you can or should play both sports at IC level but I don't think Davy has done what's best for Clare hurling by taking his stance. I'd say he thought lads would fall into line if he gave them an ultimatum but it back fired.
You're right about the Clare players giving most of their time to hurling Zulu, but Paudge was poor this year after being unbelievable last year( imo could have been given player of the year though he'd a poor AIF replay). I read that he only trained with the footballers once a week last year, which you would think wouldn't be a huge distraction. His level was way down from 2012, and I don't think he played wit the county footballers in '12 but I'm open to correction on that.
True, but I think that only stands up to scrutiny if the hurling only players maintained their standards and I don't think you can say that. It's up to every player to decide what he wants to do and up to every manager to decide if what a player is willing to commit is enough to warrant a squad number but I don't think Davy can argue he has done what's best for Clare hurling.
Quote from: Zulu on October 08, 2014, 02:25:48 PM
True, but I think that only stands up to scrutiny if the hurling only players maintained their standards and I don't think you can say that. It's up to every player to decide what he wants to do and up to every manager to decide if what a player is willing to commit is enough to warrant a squad number but I don't think Davy can argue he has done what's best for Clare hurling.
Yeah a lot of other lads had a huge drop off in form too. I'm not saying Davy is right or wrong but some really talented fellas seem to have struggled with the dual thing and it hasn't worked in the modern game. Alan Kerins managed it pretty well back around '01 I think, but the demands have gone way up since then and I can't think of any player who's done it successfully since. I'm sure Davy will argue he did do what's best for Clare hurling, and I wonder will Paudge have regrets down the line? It looks set to be a great era for Clare and imo Davy has been a great manager for many years. He's just had one bad year and people are writing him off.
Jeez I don't know about that Asal. Waterford weren't sad to see him go and I don't think he did a particularly notable job there. His record with LIT is impressive enough but he had a a fairly stacked deck there. For me, Podge giving 75% of his time to hurling is still good enough to make the Clare panel, especially when he could give 100% at the business end. Dropping a player of his quality from the panel 8 months before a serious ball is pucked is a debatable strategy IMO.
I thought he got decent results at Waterford without being outstanding. He did have a superstar squad at LIT in fairness and he was a liability for Clare this year. But he was great last year and stuck to a style of play he believed in, even when it was all going wrong.
Paudge is class, and you'd want him in there. I think the dual thing could be do-able too but if I was his father I'd be telling him to focus on his hurling, where he could become a legend.
As a manager, Davy has done a really good job pretty much anywhere he has been.
The problem for Davy is his handling of the media off the field, and his on-field antics do him no favours either.
I'm no big fan of Davy and would personally like to see dual players being accomodated, but this is extremely difficult to achieve in the modern game -and I can fully understand why Davy issued the boys with the football or hurling ultimatum.
Clare may struggle in a few positions, and while Podge is an outstanding hurler on his day Clare have an abundance of small/fast nippy forwards. Don't forget that Shane O'Donnell saw no championship action this year while Aaron cunningham only got a few minutes against Wexford and both of these are more than capable of claiming Podge's position.
Quote from: Roashter on October 08, 2014, 04:16:46 PM
Clare have an abundance of small/fast nippy forwards. Don't forget that Shane O'Donnell saw no championship action this year while Aaron cunningham only got a few minutes against Wexford and both of these are more than capable of claiming Podge's position.
That's very true. In Galway , we'd give anything for a fast, skillful player like Podge to compliment our lumbering giants, but they seem to be growing on trees right now in Clare.