Folks,
I'm looking for help from current/past referees and those with a good knowledge of the rulebook (no Paddy Collins jibes please). I'd like to know what help is currently available in an interactive format to help referees with the rules of the game (if there's any at all), e.g. is there a DVD available with TV footage of what is and isn't a foul? Is there any animation of legal and illegal play currently out there? Is any of this stuff available online? I see that GAA.ie has some videos on its new site but these deal with the skills rather than demonstrate what is a foul and what isn't.
I should clarify that I'm nearing the end of an MA in Digital Media and wish to design an artifact to help referees (new and old) make consistent, correct decisions. I'm thinking of using 3D animation to illustrate what is a foul and what isn't. I'm thinking more along the lines of the greyer areas of the rules and not the likes of you can't hop the ball twice. The primary "grey area" I had in mind for example is the rolling ball, do you have to stick your toe underneath it, can you lift it straight off the ground, does anyone even know? What other "grey areas" would you like addressed?
Would this proposed application help prospective/current referees, players and the general public? (If the players and the general public have a better understanding of the rules hopefully it would lead to a reduction in the grief referees get). Would this idea be better implemented in another way? I'm sure there's questions I've forgotten to ask and points that need clarified so don't hold back.
Feel free to PM me if you don't wish to disclose your secret life as a referee etc., everything will be dealt with in the strictest confidence. I know a few here perform the role of the man in the middle and I would be very interested in hearing your views/opinions. Once approved (fingers crossed) I'll be getting a questionaire together so even if you'd only like to be included in that drop me a line and I'll send it out to you when ready.
Croí.
there is a referee's training DVD which is used in training courses - this covers all aspects of football and hurling including some video clips etc
it is hard to get a copy of though as it cannot be copied from one DVD to another
Is that the video showing O'Hara giving out to a referee? Most of them must have watched it so.
Not answering your question, but how did the whole rolling ball thing become a 'grey area'? There's no confusion at all in the rules. You can't pick the ball off the ground, whether it's moving ot not. Who first put out the nonsense that you can pick it up if it's rolling?
Quote from: Hardy on April 13, 2007, 07:49:21 AM
Not answering your question, but how did the whole rolling ball thing become a 'grey area'? There's no confusion at all in the rules. You can't pick the ball off the ground, whether it's moving ot not. Who first put out the nonsense that you can pick it up if it's rolling?
I think it was allowed some time ago but i could be wrong. U know the way they try differnt things in the league possibly it was something like that.
Quote from: Hardy on April 13, 2007, 07:49:21 AM
Not answering your question, but how did the whole rolling ball thing become a 'grey area'? There's no confusion at all in the rules. You can't pick the ball off the ground, whether it's moving ot not. Who first put out the nonsense that you can pick it up if it's rolling?
I think the mis-labelling of the ball bouncing along the ground as 'rolling' helped this.
ITs mystifying that you see players each championship season pick the ball clean off the ground in croke park.
Its not as if they havent been drilled into doing this their whole footballing lives since being a kid.
However I believe that each training session should include the basics for a couple of minutes at the start.
It certainly worked for the team I was involved with last year - the only time we were peanalised for lifting the ball off the ground was in the league final and incorectly against one of our midfielders.
I would not be too surprised if Meath players had a tendency to pick the ball off the ground. My reccolection of league/championship in the royalist county was the terrible refereeing that allowed people to kick the fingers off you when attempting to pick the ball up legitimately. You learned to perform the art very quickly!
back to the point
I know of no material, but somethign like this would be a great help to referees, and also to every young(or old) club player in football or hurling.
The GAA should commission some actors (Laois/tyrone?) to act out the rules of the game - and bring the GAA further into the high tech media age.
For God's sake, don't be helping this fellah - do ye want the Championship to end up in the High Court?
Glad he made the distinction between Refereees and people who have good knowledge of the rules.
That would make Hardy the first Meath man who played by the rules. ;)
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 13, 2007, 08:35:12 AM
I think the mis-labelling of the ball bouncing along the ground as 'rolling' helped this.
I think that must be it. I had never heard of this myth, by the way, until I started to frequent this board. It's my perception that it's mostly a Northern idea – I'm sure the first lads I heard talking about it were from up there.
QuoteITs mystifying that you see players each championship season pick the ball clean off the ground in croke park.
I would not be too surprised if Meath players had a tendency to pick the ball off the ground. My reccolection of league/championship in the royalist county was the terrible refereeing that allowed people to kick the fingers off you when attempting to pick the ball up legitimately. You learned to perform the art very quickly!
You can't beat good skill training!
Tommy Dowd had a way of collecting the ball by running out to meet it and, instead of waiting for a dunt in the arse when he bent down to pick it up, he'd go down full length on the ground, slide into it and pick it up clean, all in one movement and he nearly always got away with it – I don't know why.
This as a good idea lad. The rules relating to the tackle in football have always been a complete mystery to me.
You and Paddy Russell.
Quote from: Hardy on April 13, 2007, 09:51:53 AM
You and Paddy Russell.
He has more of an issue with a bouncing ball ;)
Quote from: Hardy on April 13, 2007, 07:49:21 AM
Not answering your question, but how did the whole rolling ball thing become a 'grey area'? There's no confusion at all in the rules. You can't pick the ball off the ground, whether it's moving ot not. Who first put out the nonsense that you can pick it up if it's rolling?
It's like the "two man tackle" myth some other eejit started. the number of times you hear it called out at a match is unreal.
it's a free if there' a foul, no matter if there are one or ten tacklers.
And the nomination from the Sligo delegation wille be ....................Michael Hughes ;D
the tackle in football is where an attempt is made to disposses a player of the ball when the tackling player's attempt is on the ball - not the man. the tackle has to be made with the open hand
problem solved
Quote from: neilthemac on April 12, 2007, 06:29:35 PM
there is a referee's training DVD which is used in training courses - this covers all aspects of football and hurling including some video clips etc
it is hard to get a copy of though as it cannot be copied from one DVD to another
Thanks neilthemac. I presume these video clips are of championship action that show what is a foul and what isn't. Has anyone else seen this DVD? Is there any animation on it, e.g. flash clips of players?
Quote from: Hardy on April 13, 2007, 07:49:21 AM
Not answering your question, but how did the whole rolling ball thing become a 'grey area'? There's no confusion at all in the rules. You can't pick the ball off the ground, whether it's moving ot not. Who first put out the nonsense that you can pick it up if it's rolling?
It can be clearly seen in Croke Park most days, Alan Brogan is a repeat offender who for some reason sticks out in my mind. He sticks both boots into the sod, shoulder width apart, and lifts the ball straight off the ground as it rolls into him. If people see it often enough go unpunished, they begin to believe it.
Some useful help here but need more specific examples. What are your gripes with the rules or rather the publics and referees interpretation of them. Uladhs case in point of the "two man tackle" is a good example. What other comments do you hear at matches
that you know to be factually incorrect gets on your nerves???
Not answering your question directly there Croí na hÉireann, but one rule that almost all referees ignore is the 13-metre minimum distance for free-kicks. It appears that it's not even something they're vaguely aware of when free-kicks are being taken, but if it's a rule, it should be enforced. Conversely, as mentioned, some of them enforce the non-existent 'two-man tackle' rule, entirely at their own indiscretion.
The new rule book itself is only just out in the last few months, so a dvd which matches this might be a time coming.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 13, 2007, 12:48:09 PM
Not answering your question directly there Croí na hÉireann, but one rule that almost all referees ignore is the 13-metre minimum distance for free-kicks. It appears that it's not even something they're vaguely aware of when free-kicks are being taken, but if it's a rule, it should be enforced. Conversely, as mentioned, some of them enforce the non-existent 'two-man tackle' rule, entirely at their own indiscretion.
just as a matter of interest, without looking it up, do you know the correct decision here?
QuoteTommy Dowd had a way of collecting the ball by running out to meet it and, instead of waiting for a dunt in the arse when he bent down to pick it up, he'd go down full length on the ground, slide into it and pick it up clean, all in one movement and he nearly always got away with it – I don't know why.
I remember the great Kevin O'Brien (of Wicklow) was brilliant at this, though in fairness I rarely saw him pick it clean off the ground.
Quote from: aontroim abu on April 13, 2007, 01:10:48 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 13, 2007, 12:48:09 PM
Not answering your question directly there Croí na hÉireann, but one rule that almost all referees ignore is the 13-metre minimum distance for free-kicks. It appears that it's not even something they're vaguely aware of when free-kicks are being taken, but if it's a rule, it should be enforced. Conversely, as mentioned, some of them enforce the non-existent 'two-man tackle' rule, entirely at their own indiscretion.
just as a matter of interest, without looking it up, do you know the correct decision here?
Not quite with you aontroim abu, decision in regard to what exactly? An X-man tackle is not an offence unless one or more of the tacklers commits an identifiable offence, i.e, closed fist tackle. In relation to the free-kicks, then unless the receiver is at least 13 metres away, that's a whistle.
apologies for not being clear, another refereeing fault, player too close to his own player when taking a free? what should be the outcome?
Quote from: aontroim abu on April 13, 2007, 01:30:34 PM
apologies for not being clear, another refereeing fault, player too close to his own player when taking a free? what should be the outcome?
I believe that would be a hopped ball?
Quote from: aontroim abu on April 13, 2007, 01:30:34 PM
apologies for not being clear, another refereeing fault, player too close to his own player when taking a free? what should be the outcome?
Think it's rule 4.11 A - free kick from where the foul occurred.
QuoteNot answering your question, but how did the whole rolling ball thing become a 'grey area'? There's no confusion at all in the rules. You can't pick the ball off the ground, whether it's moving ot not. Who first put out the nonsense that you can pick it up if it's rolling?
That drives me up the wall when yo are at a match, the player blatantly picks it straight from the ground and some eejit in fronm of you starts giving out to the ref, "it was rolling!"
Excellent answer windie, go to the top of the class
Quote from: aontroim abu on April 13, 2007, 01:53:56 PM
Excellent answer windie, go to the top of the class
Ty. I knew Gerry McClory's tests would come in useful !!
Quote from: aontroim abu on April 13, 2007, 01:53:56 PM
Excellent answer windie, go to the top of the class
Should have read the rules fully instead of watching the refs! ;)
;D
Just bringing this one back to the top lads. Anyone else out there with some gripes of the rules?
Another one that's open to interpretation seems to be the fist/hand pass, particularily when it's done at head level with the open hand pointed towards the sky.
There seems to be a kind of 2 handed throw which is being accepted as a hand pass, especially when the pass is almost directly horizontal
Can anyone confirm that there was a rule change brought in this year that states that no more that four players can surround a player with the ball?
Also needing confirmation that the handpass where the player is holding the ball at head height (like a waiter does with a tray) and pushes the ball away with the other open hand is within the rules?
no rule for four players tackling. you could have the entire team surround a player as long as they don't foul him
there has to be a definite striking action on the ball in a handpass - cannot be pushed or flicked
the one and only time i ever got sent off playing football was for telling a ref that there was no such rule in gaelic football as the 2 man tackle. after he blow a foul and shouted 2 man tackle.
Never mind the two man tackle,what about the two hands tackle
the ball can be handpassed by releasing it from the hand and striking it (even with the same hand) - as long as there is a clear striking motion by the hand - doesn't matter if its an open hand or a closed fist (except for scoring a point with the handpass which must be done with a closed fist...)
anything else?
One rule that seems to be consistently ignored is the 4 step rule though I noticed that the ref in the Cavan/Down game last Sunday did apply it. He would be the rare exception though.
the rule just states that there must be a clear striking action of the hand
doesn't matter if it is overhead or between the legs.
clear striking action!! i.e. no pushing of the ball
and you can't throw up the ball to hit it, cause that would be a throw...
The three things that annoy me most are the footblock they dont seem to blown by some refs whilst other enforce the rule strictly. The other rule I have always wondered about is are you allowed to solo the ball before taking a free, my reading of the rule book is that you arent but I have only seen one ref enforce this. Finally tackling the ball when the keeper has it, again I read this as being allowed but again every ref seems to penalise it.
Mind you we had a ref last year who booked for an off the ground, moved a free kick 30m and when asked why said because the man who fouled him was within 30metres when the free was taken and worst of all sent a man off straight red for repeated square balls. That ref annoyed me more than anything in the rule book
footblock by a goalie really annoys me. however, if the ball is already on the ground then a footblock is legal!
once the free is given and before the whistle is blown you can do anything you want with the ball. once the whistle is blown you obviously cannot solo the ball as another player must touch the ball after the freekick before the free taker can retake possession ... so it'll be a free against the freetaker
the keeper cannot be tackled inside the small square. after that its fair game. deck the cnut i say!
I dont quite agree with those last two points Neil. I dont think they can solo a ball unless play is stopped or its a 13m free as then they will have played it quickly.
In relation I maintain they can be tackled just not charged because the rule says.
When he is within the small rectangle, the goalkeeper may not be charged but he may be challenged for possession of the ball, and his puck, kick or pass may be blocked. Incidental contact with the goalkeeper while playing the ball is permitted.
Every ref seems to blow for it though and I agree in relation to the footblock
sorry, that is indeed a hurling rule. goalies in hurling may not be tackled inside the small square. in football they can be tackled (legally) anywhere
well, from a free the ball isn't technically allowed to be played until the whistle goes. so soloing before the whistle is the same as bouncing it I would have thought. however, if the whistle goes and you solo it then the free should be reversed
I thought the only time you had to wait for a whistle was for a 13m free or when play was stopped e.g. for a booking or an injury. Apart from that I thought you could take a free as quickly as you wanted.
Quote from: David McKeown on May 17, 2007, 10:53:07 AM
I thought the only time you had to wait for a whistle was for a 13m free or when play was stopped e.g. for a booking or an injury. Apart from that I thought you could take a free as quickly as you wanted.
No-you can't. You require the ref's permission to take a quick free, on all occasions.
Cheers Playwiththewind thats something I always wanted cleared up because I have seen some refs insist on the whistle and other refs say players dont have to wait if play isn't stopped.
Quote from: David McKeown on May 17, 2007, 02:22:19 PM
Cheers Playwiththewind thats something I always wanted cleared up because I have seen some refs insist on the whistle and other refs say players dont have to wait if play isn't stopped.
Rule 2.6 is the one you're looking for if you want chapter & verse.
See I never read that rule as requiring the whistle simply the referees consent.
Quote from: David McKeown on May 17, 2007, 04:53:12 PM
See I never read that rule as requiring the whistle simply the referees consent.
Throw in Rule 1.1 then, as well as 2.6.......the ball is in play once it has been thrown in or kicked after the referee has given a signal to start or restart play.
Probably need 2.2 as well, thanks for clearing that up something I always wondered about so its poor refereeing for the whistle not to go twice for every foul.
Quote from: David McKeown on May 18, 2007, 01:59:35 PM
Probably need 2.2 as well, thanks for clearing that up something I always wondered about so its poor refereeing for the whistle not to go twice for every foul.
Technically speaking, yes, but usually if a player takes a quick free, the referee will most often let it go, because blowing his whistle would only stop the play again - but that's what he's supposed to do, if he hasn't authorised the quick free in the first place. It often happens, but I'm certain that a refereeing assessor would make a negative comment on that in his report.
Ok One more question can the ball be tackled into the net i.e. a defender has it running across his own line but is fairly dispossed by a forward who legally slaps the ball out of his hands with an open hand. The ball does not touch the defender nor the attacker again wthout going into the net.
I disagree here becasue of rule 3.2
3.2 A score may be made by striking the ball in flight with the hand(s).
The ball is definately not in flight at this stage and thats the only reference I can see thats relevant to such a unique situation. Mind you it may be a case that it must be allowed because its not explicity forbidden in the rules.