I heard a bit of speculation at the weekend about the possibility of Newry City reforming and joining the League of Ireland. I presume it is just something the supporters are looking in to, does anyone know if the FAI have been approached officially? Probably wouldnt be in the IFA's interest to see them follow Derry City down south.
Unless someone involved with Newry can unveil a master plan rooted in immersing the club in the culture of the city, then the LoI should run away from any application.
Going to a Newry match simply does not register as an event with the overwhelming majority of people in the area, and playing St Pats or Shamrock won't change this fact.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 11, 2012, 07:53:05 PMGoing to a Newry match simply does not register as an event with the overwhelming majority of people in the area, and playing St Pats or Shamrock won't change this fact.
St Pat's or Shamrock? The best they can hope for is Waterford! Beat Glentoran in the European Cup in 1970, so we did...
Could they get a rivalry going with Dundalk?
Wobbler,
Would interest not be doubled by Newry playing St Pats as opposed to playing Crusaders? Newry is afterall a nationalist city, and there is probably room for GAA and soccer. It would also help if they rebranded as Newry Celtic, or Grasshoppers, or Shanro Santos.
Quote from: Orior on November 11, 2012, 08:50:35 PM
Wobbler,
Would interest not be doubled by Newry playing St Pats as opposed to playing Crusaders? Newry is afterall a nationalist city, and there is probably room for GAA and soccer. It would also help if they rebranded as Newry Celtic, or Grasshoppers, or Shanro Santos.
How about Newry Sarsfields?
Orior, I'd say that if anything soccer is a more popular sport than Gaelic in Newry. Yes there's 4 GAA clubs in the city, but if you walk into any bar in the town on AI QF or SF day, you can guarantee that the main screen will have United or Celtic playing on it.
But nobody has much time for 'the town' apart from 2-300 hardy souls.
My own tuppence is that for as long as I can remember, until last season in the lower leagues, the team was made up in nearly every position by players from everywhere but Newry. I don't expect the team to be made up only of locals, but it always seemed as though a good local was at a disadvantage to an average one from elsewhere. It's not 'our' club so much as a plaything for some local business men who are badly advised.
So a team situated in one Association's jurisdiction (IFA) can just go bust - in Newry's case, to the tune of £500k - then just start up again under another Association (FAI), as though nothing had happened? That prompts the question as to why eg Rangers didn't think of that.
Anyhow, such a move goes totally against FIFA/UEFA's principles, which is why under their Rules, any club seeking to join another Association must first seek the permission of the Association they are leaving.
Further, there is no obligation on any Association to grant such permission, unless the applicant club may prove exceptional circumstances.
Three examples of such circumstances are:
1. The handful of Welsh clubs who were playing in the English League pyramid long before FIFA/UEFA mandated the present situation (other Welsh clubs newly applying to play in England, eg TNS, have since been routinely refused);
2. Liechtenstein clubs playing in the Swiss League, since they don't have enough to form their own League (also AS Monaco in the French League);
3. Derry City getting special dispensation to play in the LOI, due to civil disturbance etc.
None of the above applies to Newry, therefore if they wish to resurrect the club, they'll have to work their way back up the IFA League pyramid. And since the ground is tidy enough, and owned by the Supporters (not the shower who went bust), I'd guess that they could possibly even start at Intermediate level, which is only two promotions below where they were when they went under:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_football_league_system
doesnt darren odea play for a toronto team in the mls. i can understand lichtenstein teams playing in switzerland because it is too small to have its own league but surely canada is big enough to support a professional league. a lot of contradictions regarding uefa policy.
Quote from: ardtole on November 12, 2012, 09:39:46 PM
surely canada is big enough to support a professional league. a lot of contradictions regarding uefa policy.
Indeed.
A couple of years ago ....
Friday night, Mayobridge v Burren at Pairc Esler, 4,000 + in attendance, not a police car in sight.
Saturday afternoon following...
Newry Town v Cliftonville, attendance 360, police landrovers everywhere, two buses rowdy escorted into the ground as a local funeral took place
Tell you anything about the need or worth of Newry Town/City/United/Celtic/Dysfunctional???? playing anywhere?
Saddened by the plight of Newry City (the club that spawned the likes of Pat Jennings), in a town ironically which has always been a hot bed of junior football. Also saddened by the plight of nearby Dundalk FC, as I remember they were kingpins in the late 70s and early 80s, and the likes of Spurs, Celtic, PSV Eindhoven etc all came to Oriel Park in European Competition and none of them managed to win there.
There is a malaise in domestic soccer across the island of Ireland, (the odd one off performances in Europe periodically such as Shamrock Rovers last season notwithstanding) with all clubs beset by money woes and lack of real sustainable support, and I'm afraid clubs switching from one jurisdiction to another will not cure this. One or two clubs, like Cliftonville, occasionally benefit from the emergence of talent from their youth system, but inevitably the resurgence lasts only a season or so, as the same talent gets the opportunity to go across that water to full time football.
Needs to be a long hard look at domestic soccer right across the island, and as usal the best way forward for the game in general is to have one premier league across the island with 12 full time professional clubs, and a first,second and possibly third division, much like the current set up in Scotland, although the lower divisions here could possibly be regionalised.
Quote from: T Fearon on November 13, 2012, 11:54:35 AM
Saddened by the plight of Newry City (the club that spawned the likes of Pat Jennings), in a town ironically which has always been a hot bed of junior football. Also saddened by the plight of nearby Dundalk FC, as I remember they were kingpins in the late 70s and early 80s, and the likes of Spurs, Celtic, PSV Eindhoven etc all came to Oriel Park in European Competition and none of them managed to win there.
There is a malaise in domestic soccer across the island of Ireland, (the odd one off performances in Europe periodically such as Shamrock Rovers last season notwithstanding) with all clubs beset by money woes and lack of real sustainable support, and I'm afraid clubs switching from one jurisdiction to another will not cure this. One or two clubs, like Cliftonville, occasionally benefit from the emergence of talent from their youth system, but inevitably the resurgence lasts only a season or so, as the same talent gets the opportunity to go across that water to full time football.
Needs to be a long hard look at domestic soccer right across the island, and as usal the best way forward for the game in general is to have one premier league across the island with 12 full time professional clubs, and a first,second and possibly third division, much like the current set up in Scotland, although the lower divisions here could possibly be regionalised.
Good post Tony.
I'm just looking at this from the outside and it's none of my business, but if I'm allowed an observation, I don't think it matters how much they t**ker with the administration of the game in this country - 26, 32 or six counties. Soccer fans in Ireland seem to love their English premier league clubs more than they love the game of soccer. You could theorise till the fans come home about the psychology, sociology or codolgy behind that, but it remains a fact that the majority of Irish soccer fans will drive past the ground where their local team is playing on their way to the airport for a flight to Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow or London to watch what they really consider to be "their" team playing. As long as that remains the case, it matters little which league the likes of Newry City choose to adorn with their talents. They'll still be doing it in front of a small number of soccer fans, as opposed to Manchester United fans.
t i nker ::)
Quote from: Hardy on November 13, 2012, 12:15:20 PM
I'm just looking at this from the outside and it's none of my business, but if I'm allowed an observation, I don't think it matters how much they t**ker with the administration of the game in this country - 26, 32 or six counties. Soccer fans in Ireland seem to love their English premier league clubs more than they love the game of soccer. You could theorise till the fans come home about the psychology, sociology or codolgy behind that, but it remains a fact that the majority of Irish soccer fans will drive past the ground where their local team is playing on their way to the airport for a flight to Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow or London to watch what they really consider to be "their" team playing. As long as that remains the case, it matters little which league the likes of Newry City choose to adorn with their talents. They'll still be doing it in front of a small number of soccer fans, as opposed to Manchester United fans.
The vast majority of Irish soccer fans don't have a local team. There is no "their team" playing in the League of Ireland (barring the few who do live close to the LoI grounds). For example, near to me is the very big town of Swords. If you live there your local team is Swords Celtic or Swords Manor or Swords Rovers or Rivervalley Rangers. Bohs or the likes have absolutely no hold.
So unlike GAA there is no accident of birth that gives the LoI soccer clubs a natural supporter base.
They need other carrots to attract fans, and they don't really have any, so the English league wins far far more.
Outside of the Dublin clubs, the provincial fans would be local more or less, Sligo, Derry, Longford town, Monghan whan they were around.
Sligo have probaly the best support in the League.
Quote from: rodney trotter on November 13, 2012, 01:51:08 PM
Outside of the Dublin clubs, the provincial clubs would be local more or less, Sligo, Derry, Longford town, Monghan whan they were around.
Sligo have probaly the best support in the League.
Quote from: Hound on November 13, 2012, 01:44:07 PM
Quote from: Hardy on November 13, 2012, 12:15:20 PM
I'm just looking at this from the outside and it's none of my business, but if I'm allowed an observation, I don't think it matters how much they t**ker with the administration of the game in this country - 26, 32 or six counties. Soccer fans in Ireland seem to love their English premier league clubs more than they love the game of soccer. You could theorise till the fans come home about the psychology, sociology or codolgy behind that, but it remains a fact that the majority of Irish soccer fans will drive past the ground where their local team is playing on their way to the airport for a flight to Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow or London to watch what they really consider to be "their" team playing. As long as that remains the case, it matters little which league the likes of Newry City choose to adorn with their talents. They'll still be doing it in front of a small number of soccer fans, as opposed to Manchester United fans.
The vast majority of Irish soccer fans don't have a local team. There is no "their team" playing in the League of Ireland (barring the few who do live close to the LoI grounds). For example, near to me is the very big town of Swords. If you live there your local team is Swords Celtic or Swords Manor or Swords Rovers or Rivervalley Rangers. Bohs or the likes have absolutely no hold.
So unlike GAA there is no accident of birth that gives the LoI soccer clubs a natural supporter base.
They need other carrots to attract fans, and they don't really have any, so the English league wins far far more.
I suppose this is more or less what I was getting at earlier.
Newry is (was) a classic case of an organisation that happened to be located in Newry, rather than from Newry. While I wouldn't say there's been a deliberate policy of ignoring local players and youth structures, like most soccer clubs everything is about short term goals. They'll sign a guy from Scotland on £800 a week to gain a few points now, rather than spend that £800 a week building up a strong academy that'll help bring them local support and potentially recoup transfer revenue in the future.
There's no local pride in the club and I would say it's largely to do with this sort of policy.
There's no burning desire from youngsters to wear the shirt, as there's no history of youngsters and peers coming through to wear the shirt.
There's no parents and siblings going to watch matches, let alone cousins and mates.
I'd suggest soccer in Ireland as a whole needs to understand its place in the soccer food chain. If the clubs concentrated on coaching and producing talent in their local areas, they would be immediately financially more stable. The only downside is that the Cawoods Shield from 1983 might not have been won. Or is that a downside?
Quote from: Hound on November 13, 2012, 01:44:07 PM
The vast majority of Irish soccer fans don't have a local team. There is no "their team" playing in the League of Ireland (barring the few who do live close to the LoI grounds). For example, near to me is the very big town of Swords. If you live there your local team is Swords Celtic or Swords Manor or Swords Rovers or Rivervalley Rangers. Bohs or the likes have absolutely no hold.
So unlike GAA there is no accident of birth that gives the LoI soccer clubs a natural supporter base.
They need other carrots to attract fans, and they don't really have any, so the English league wins far far more.
And yet the League of Ireland used get great crowds back in the day. People in south Kilkenny had no problem following Waterford - yeah, I know, hard to believe but it's true. Personally I think the problem is the people who ran soccer in Ireland were way too complacent in face of increased competition from the game in England thanks to television. And now it's going to be impossible to get them back. I hadn't been to see the Blues in years when I brought my brother-in-law to the RSC a few years back to give him an insight into what it is like in the 99.99% of football clubs that haven't won five European Cups, and Christ it was grim. You turn up at the gate and get a hopeful grin from the turnstile operator - wow, a new face, hopefully he'll come back! And when you take your seat you feel like everyone is watching you for the same reasons. As it happens, I bumped into a old school friend who showed me the ropes and that's why I've kept going back. The eight Waterford games I went to this year make me an Ultra by Irish standards. But for the rest of us, the lack of atmosphere is overwhelming. No-one tries it out because there are no crowds, and there are no crowds because no-one tries it out. There isn't a solution beyond adjusting expectations and expenditure to suit the environment, and when you see suggestions like bringing in a club from across the border that no-one supports, you see that the FAI can't even do that.
Quote from: AQMP on November 13, 2012, 12:04:43 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on November 13, 2012, 11:54:35 AM
Saddened by the plight of Newry City (the club that spawned the likes of Pat Jennings), in a town ironically which has always been a hot bed of junior football. Also saddened by the plight of nearby Dundalk FC, as I remember they were kingpins in the late 70s and early 80s, and the likes of Spurs, Celtic, PSV Eindhoven etc all came to Oriel Park in European Competition and none of them managed to win there.
There is a malaise in domestic soccer across the island of Ireland, (the odd one off performances in Europe periodically such as Shamrock Rovers last season notwithstanding) with all clubs beset by money woes and lack of real sustainable support, and I'm afraid clubs switching from one jurisdiction to another will not cure this. One or two clubs, like Cliftonville, occasionally benefit from the emergence of talent from their youth system, but inevitably the resurgence lasts only a season or so, as the same talent gets the opportunity to go across that water to full time football.
Needs to be a long hard look at domestic soccer right across the island, and as usal the best way forward for the game in general is to have one premier league across the island with 12 full time professional clubs, and a first,second and possibly third division, much like the current set up in Scotland, although the lower divisions here could possibly be regionalised.
Good post Tony.
I agree (with both of you).
How about closing both Newry and Dundalk FC and Hughie Morgan starting one in Killean?
An All-Ireland league is not going to happen. You might as well talk about Roman Abramovich bankrolling every club in the country, both possibilities are as remote as each other.
Crude
360 people paying £5 in = £1800
11 Playing staff @150 per week = £1650
Managerial wage and other part time staff / groundsmen etc = £1000 per week
I know TV/advertising subsidises the whole thing but surely it couldnt be by that much.
Lights /telephone/ hot water.
The GAA club model just about keeping heads above water at the moment. Whilst soccor clubs continue to make losses by paying wages to boys who would probably play for them anyway then they are no serious competition to the GAA. Long may their lack of knowledge continue. Without Messi the game is shite anyway.
Is £5 a normal admission price for the Irish League?
Quote from: deiseach on November 13, 2012, 04:05:32 PM
Is £5 a normal admission price for the Irish League?
£10 this season
I live in Newry, and I don't think I have ever had a conversation about Newry City FC with anybody ever in my life! I think that sums up the connection that our local club has with the community. I have never even heard anyone speak about them never mind pay £10 to see them play.
With proper marketing and full time set ups,the likes of Linfield,Shamrock Rovers etc could produce a decent domestic product that would gain support on a sustainable basis.
The junior soccer scene is thriving North and South, so why cant this carry on into senior level.Clubs need to do an awful lot more to connect with their communities,though I don't buy the argument that people don't go because very few if any from their local communities appear in the teams.If that's the case why do they go to England and Scotland every weekend?
The game at senior level is poorly marketed with the FAI concentrating on youth development in the hope that it will provide senior internationalists in future, via English clubs, while The IFA couldn't run a raffle.
Ireland , North and South must be the only international sides in the world that don't feature any players from their domestic leagues on any sort of regular basis.
Folks there is no reason why the LOI couldn't be on a par with the European leagues of Denmark, Sweden, Belgium etc with the right emphasis on ground and academy development. A 10/12 team top tier league country wide is achievable but the FAI structures and incumbent blazers are the greatest impediment.
I've lost count of the amount of times I've had conversations on the subject. Its a bit like the bank bail out - everyone knows its a scam but no one is willing to take on the powers that be
There just isn't the interest in paying to watch local soccer any more.
Quote from: Declan on November 13, 2012, 10:21:51 PM
Folks there is no reason why the LOI couldn't be on a par with the European leagues of Denmark, Sweden, Belgium etc with the right emphasis on ground and academy development. A 10/12 team top tier league country wide is achievable but the FAI structures and incumbent blazers are the greatest impediment.
I've lost count of the amount of times I've had conversations on the subject. Its a bit like the bank bail out - everyone knows its a scam but no one is willing to take on the powers that be
Well actually there's two good reasons; Gaelic Games and rugby.
QuoteWell actually there's two good reasons; Gaelic Games and rugby.
No reason why they are barriers to a well run 10/12 team league. Look at the success of Connacht and Leinster in attracting decent crowds to mickey mouse rabo direct games - now I know their structures are different but there is a template for a succesful league just too many vested interests. There was about 750 people at the Leinster club QF in Mullingar at the weekend yet there was about 1000 people standing on hills in Ratoath looking at the Leinster Junior match against Castleknock.
There is an audience out there for a decent product notwithstanding the inherent lack of connection with the teams in a professional setup
Quote from: T Fearon on November 13, 2012, 08:04:24 PM
The junior soccer scene is thriving North and South, so why cant this carry on into senior level.Clubs need to do an awful lot more to connect with their communities,though I don't buy the argument that people don't go because very few if any from their local communities appear in the teams.If that's the case why do they go to England and Scotland every weekend?
In the North, junior soccer and senior leagues are played on a saturday afternoon mostly at the same time.
Those with an interest in local soccer would go see the junior team first, but if one or the other moved to the sunday then possibly you'd get better attendances at the senior leagues and that isn't going to happen any time soon.
Newry did play a lot of home games on a friday night though!!