With the death of John Egan, who played on the best team (group of players) i ever seen, i decided to have a look on Youtube and get nostalgic. One thing i noticed from this clip is the quick and often use of the Hand-pass. Don't get me wrong the footpassing in the clip is top drawer (when used). You can see the emergence and influence of ball retention through the hand pass. Spillane and quite a few more talk of the lack of Kick passing in the modern game and how a Rugby league 15 could play Football, but with the rule that applied in the late '70's and early '80's maybe the RL side would have had a chance in their time.
Also note the amount of goals scored by the hand, how was it ever allowed!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWEU5gn8Q5k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWEU5gn8Q5k)
The handpassed goal was the daftest playing rule in the history of the GAA.
Zero skill required.
Quote from: Jinxy on April 09, 2012, 07:49:24 PM
The handpassed goal was the daftest playing rule in the history of the GAA.
Zero skill required.
Yeah, the only worse rule was the hand pass goal in Hurling. Jez, a ball that small, how da sh1te did they expect a goalkeeper to keep it out?
The handpassed point is nearly as bad as all scores in football should be kicked if you have control of the ball and the handpass option reduces the amount of goal attempts players make. It's the one rule I would definitely get rid of.
Quote from: Zulu on April 09, 2012, 07:58:46 PM
The handpassed point is nearly as bad as all scores in football should be kicked if you have control of the ball and the handpass option reduces the amount of goal attempts players make. It's the one rule I would definitely get rid of.
Yeah, always felt a hand pass point was a bit of a cheat score, but the volleyed score from hand ok!
Quote from: Jinxy on April 09, 2012, 07:49:24 PM
The handpassed goal was the daftest playing rule in the history of the GAA.
Zero skill required.
not as bad as the touchdown goal
Quote from: tyronefan on April 09, 2012, 08:22:59 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on April 09, 2012, 07:49:24 PM
The handpassed goal was the daftest playing rule in the history of the GAA.
Zero skill required.
not as bad as the touchdown goal
Hey, leave Joe Sheridan out of this! ;)
Quote from: Zulu on April 09, 2012, 07:58:46 PM
The handpassed point is nearly as bad as all scores in football should be kicked if you have control of the ball and the handpass option reduces the amount of goal attempts players make. It's the one rule I would definitely get rid of.
Handpassed points are illegal and should not be allowed.
It's meant to be fisted.
Our U21s had a point disallowed for not using the fist last Saturday.
What a pity all Refs don't implement this rule ( and all the rest !!!) as some of the "points " scored are no more than throws.
I agree Zulu, only kicked scores from possession , only deflected scores allowed by hand ( and of course no falling over line "goals" ;D)
Also a lack of Football in American football.
Quote from: Rossfan on April 09, 2012, 08:45:10 PM
Quote from: Zulu on April 09, 2012, 07:58:46 PM
The handpassed point is nearly as bad as all scores in football should be kicked if you have control of the ball and the handpass option reduces the amount of goal attempts players make. It's the one rule I would definitely get rid of.
Handpassed points are illegal and should not be allowed.
It's meant to be fisted.
Our U21s had a point disallowed for not using the fist last Saturday.
What a pity all Refs don't implement this rule ( and all the rest !!!) as some of the "points " scored are no more than throws.
I agree Zulu, only kicked scores from possession , only deflected scores allowed by hand ( and of course no falling over line "goals" ;D)
Yeah to add salt to the wound, most 'fisted' scores are 'handpassed' a clearly so on most occasions!! I think changing that rule alone would increase the number of goals scored quite noticeably and it would certainly increase the amount of goalmouth action. Anyway, we now have lads fisting points from 20m or more and it adds nothing to the spectacle.
Quote from: Zulu on April 09, 2012, 07:58:46 PM
The handpassed point is nearly as bad as all scores in football should be kicked if you have control of the ball and the handpass option reduces the amount of goal attempts players make. It's the one rule I would definitely get rid of.
I agree.
I hate to see a player steaming through and he resorts to fisting it over from 20 yards out.
I have no issue with fisted points. If you've managed to get the ball that close to goal and have procession you deserve the option, it helps mitigate against the crime-scene tape 'we ain't doin nothin to him, ref!' surround defence that's the real scourge of scoring and exciting football.
The fisted point is rarely used when players are surrounded, in fact 99% of the time it is used when a player could just as easily kick it. Allowing the option of fisting it over the bar reduces the skill level in the game, reduces goal attempts and reduces excitement levels. It adds nothing to the game and is rarely used because it's the only option available so it isn't a necessary rule.
I agree fully about the fisted point. I've never understood why it wasn't outlawed when the handpassed goal was, since it requires even less skill. I suppose it had to do with the fact that it got to the stage where a huge majority of goals were handpassed into the net whereas it never got that bad with points.
Have a look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWEU5gn8Q5k) to see what an awful abomination the handpassed goal was. How anybody ever thought it was reasonable is hard to understand. (Not picking on Kerry - they just happened to be the pre-eminent team in this misguided era.)
Quote from: Hardy on April 10, 2012, 04:59:26 PM
I agree fully about the fisted point. I've never understood why it wasn't outlawed when the handpassed goal was, since it requires even less skill. I suppose it had to do with the fact that it got to the stage where a huge majority of goals were handpassed into the net whereas it never got that bad with points.
Have a look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWEU5gn8Q5k) to see what an awful abomination the handpassed goal was. How anybody ever thought it was reasonable is hard to understand. (Not picking on Kerry - they just happened to be the pre-eminent team in this misguided era.)
Same clip as the begining of the stream.
Quote from: From the Bunker on April 10, 2012, 06:00:08 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 10, 2012, 04:59:26 PM
I agree fully about the fisted point. I've never understood why it wasn't outlawed when the handpassed goal was, since it requires even less skill. I suppose it had to do with the fact that it got to the stage where a huge majority of goals were handpassed into the net whereas it never got that bad with points.
Have a look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWEU5gn8Q5k) to see what an awful abomination the handpassed goal was. How anybody ever thought it was reasonable is hard to understand. (Not picking on Kerry - they just happened to be the pre-eminent team in this misguided era.)
Same clip as the begining of the stream.
There are several signs of stupidity but I don't understand any of them.
Quote from: Hardy on April 10, 2012, 04:59:26 PM
I agree fully about the fisted point. I've never understood why it wasn't outlawed when the handpassed goal was, since it requires even less skill. I suppose it had to do with the fact that it got to the stage where a huge majority of goals were handpassed into the net whereas it never got that bad with points.
Have a look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWEU5gn8Q5k) to see what an awful abomination the handpassed goal was. How anybody ever thought it was reasonable is hard to understand. (Not picking on Kerry - they just happened to be the pre-eminent team in this misguided era.)
I made an almost identical post over 3 years ago. We've really come on since then!
Quote from: Hardy on April 10, 2012, 04:59:26 PM
I agree fully about the fisted point. I've never understood why it wasn't outlawed when the handpassed goal was, since it requires even less skill. I suppose it had to do with the fact that it got to the stage where a huge majority of goals were handpassed into the net whereas it never got that bad with points.
Have a look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWEU5gn8Q5k) to see what an awful abomination the handpassed goal was. How anybody ever thought it was reasonable is hard to understand. (Not picking on Kerry - they just happened to be the pre-eminent team in this misguided era.)
It actually was outlawed for a time but was re-intriduced for some reason. I disagree that it is not worthwhile. In tight situations it is sometimes impossible to get the ball to your foot and if you are able to fist it over then I don't see why not. It should however be a clear fist and not a semi throw.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 10, 2012, 10:30:36 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 10, 2012, 04:59:26 PM
I agree fully about the fisted point. I've never understood why it wasn't outlawed when the handpassed goal was, since it requires even less skill. I suppose it had to do with the fact that it got to the stage where a huge majority of goals were handpassed into the net whereas it never got that bad with points.
Have a look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWEU5gn8Q5k) to see what an awful abomination the handpassed goal was. How anybody ever thought it was reasonable is hard to understand. (Not picking on Kerry - they just happened to be the pre-eminent team in this misguided era.)
It actually was outlawed for a time but was re-intriduced for some reason. I disagree that it is not worthwhile. In tight situations it is sometimes impossible to get the ball to your foot and if you are able to fist it over then I don't see why not. It should however be a clear fist and not a semi throw.
But this so rarely happens that it isn't worth retaining when most players use it rather than the kick in kicking situations. Even in situations when you are bottled up drawing a boot on it is rarely impossible.
I think that fisted points should only be allowed from outside the large rectangle - this might eliminate the dubious "throws".
Gary Sice against Kildare in the 2nd half was a perfect example.
Great move from one end to the other.
He cuts through the Kildare defence at speed, bearing down on goal and he fists it over the bar from 20 yards out.
There was no good reason why he couldn't kick it over and it annoys me that he thought "Better safe than sorry" and went with the option that requires zero skill.
Such an anti-climax to a lovely move.
Just get rid of it altogether.
The whole thread is a complete over-reaction.
In an age where players still have to tap the ball up slow enough from the ground for less than eagle-eyed referees to see or or feel their wrath and the rule book allows for half a team to encircle a player like he's been kidnapped and brought to a born-again prayer meeting as long as one one dares touch him with their unclean hands I think we can put fisted points on the back-burner.
Letting players pick the ball up straight from the ground will speed the game up no end and stop alot of the sledging and frees that go hand-in-hand with players bending down and trying to tap a ball up with a half a dozen hoves two inches from their digits. Make crowd defence a foul.
Then you've got a game.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 10, 2012, 10:30:36 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 10, 2012, 04:59:26 PM
I agree fully about the fisted point. I've never understood why it wasn't outlawed when the handpassed goal was, since it requires even less skill. I suppose it had to do with the fact that it got to the stage where a huge majority of goals were handpassed into the net whereas it never got that bad with points.
Have a look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWEU5gn8Q5k) to see what an awful abomination the handpassed goal was. How anybody ever thought it was reasonable is hard to understand. (Not picking on Kerry - they just happened to be the pre-eminent team in this misguided era.)
It actually was outlawed for a time but was re-intriduced for some reason. I disagree that it is not worthwhile. In tight situations it is sometimes impossible to get the ball to your foot and if you are able to fist it over then I don't see why not. It should however be a clear fist and not a semi throw.
You should always use crowded situations when it's hard to get the ball to your foot as an opportunity to kick a shin or two - drop the ball, swing at it and miss. This discourages the occurrence of further crowded situations when you're involved.
How could you make "crowd defence" a foul? Tell people where they can and can't stand, in a fast-moving situation and also depending on where other people are standing? How many referees, assisted by stop-motion cameras would you need to make that work? It's not chess, it's a full-tilt, fast moving contact sport. Or it used to be until the "ban defending" lobby started up.
There are enough wrong-headed anti-defending rules, practices and interpretations in place already
- forwards getting frees for fouling defenders
- defenders getting yellow cards when forwards seem immune to them, often to the extent that as a game progresses you have three or four defenders who dare not tackle a forward at all
- 14-metre penalty for dissent penalising defenders usually with a score but forwards not at all
- defenders penalised for standing their ground and not moving out of the way to let a forward run past
- etc.
The legislators back in the early eighties (I think) saw that the handpassed goal was taking football down the road of Harlem Globetrotters style junk entertainment and did something about it. The misguided attempts of the last decade to "clean up" the game and eliminate physical contact so that we can all watch fancy forwards scoring fancy scores without being bothered by pesky defenders are taking it in the same direction but nobody seems to care or even notice.
QuoteLetting players pick the ball up straight from the ground will speed the game up no end and stop alot of the sledging and frees that go hand-in-hand with players bending down and trying to tap a ball up with a half a dozen hoves two inches from their digits. Make crowd defence a foul.
Then you've got a game.
No, please no. Would lead to the scambling for possession on the ground that you sometimes see in the AFL.
In a game that is a poor relation to hurling terms of skill levels, lets not remove skill.
Do people here think that the game needs speeding up?
I agree with everyone that the handpass goal is a bollix. I actually don't remember it but watching the video you can see that it is not much more than throwing the ball in the net. The keeper really has no chance.
However regarding the fisted point I disagree with most people. If an attacker runs into the square, then to get a penalty he really has to be held. If a defender slaps his hand across his legs then the referee will rarely give a penalty. But this action means the attacker really cannot kick the ball and so the defender wins without even making an attempt to tackle the ball. If you want to talk about skills then attacking skills should be balanced by defending skills and defending skills are based on tackling the ball not the man. You can not ask for more skills from an attacker without also asking to see correct rule applied defending to go with it.
The ability to fist over the bar allows an attacker to defeat the illegal block/slap across his legs by a defender. If a defender is doing the job according to the spirit of the game he would be tackling the ball and it wouldn't matter if the player tried to fist it over or kick it. Disallowing fisted points simply allows lazy defending to prevent attackers from scoring.
Definitely don't want to see the ball allowed to be picked off the ground. As Denn says, it would lead to madness on the deck, it would be like AFL or rugby, men piling on, crawling all over each other?? Not for me.. I don't really see anything wrong with men fisting over points, in certain occasions it just is the better option. Like when a forward is being crowded by defenders and he doesn't have room to get the ball to his foot, or when a forward is cutting in from the endline, tight angle, fisting over there is always the better option.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 11, 2012, 12:26:11 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on April 11, 2012, 09:48:59 AM
No, please no. Would lead to the scambling for possession on the ground that you sometimes see in the AFL.
Quote from: EagleLord on April 11, 2012, 10:06:19 AM
Definitely don't want to see the ball allowed to be picked off the ground. As Denn says, it would lead to madness on the deck, it would be like AFL or rugby, men piling on, crawling all over each other?? Not for me..
In ladies football the ball can be picked up off the ground directly provided she is in a standing position, which means she must have at least one foot on the ground and no other part of her body touching the ground supporting her (e.g. knee, hand) when she lifts the ball. I think this was trialled in the NFL a few years ago.
Exactly. The idea that what we have already isn't 'madness on the deck' is, well, madness.
Anyone who thinks less delays like that won't help the game is living on a different planet to me - the more time a defence has to set themselves and drag most everyone back the more and more they resemble a team coached by Big Jim. Even taking out a single second delay in a pass makes a huge difference and would invariably lead to more chances and more scores.
Quote from: Denn Forever on April 11, 2012, 09:48:59 AM
QuoteLetting players pick the ball up straight from the ground will speed the game up no end and stop alot of the sledging and frees that go hand-in-hand with players bending down and trying to tap a ball up with a half a dozen hoves two inches from their digits. Make crowd defence a foul.
Then you've got a game.
No, please no. Would lead to the scambling for possession on the ground that you sometimes see in the AFL.
Do people here think that the game needs speeding up?
Players are running round like headless chickens but the ball movement has slowed down something shocking with the 40 handpasses every 20 metres sh1te that we have nowadays.
A kicked ball travels faster than any athletic runny handpasser.
As for eliminating the pick up - sure why not let players carry the ball as far as they like , allow throws and sur elet lads carry the ball over the goal line for a goal too ... all in the interest of speeding the game up y'see ::)
Ladies football has some aspects that are much better than the men's game e.g. Time keeping independent of the Ref, Sin Bin.
QuoteAnyone who thinks less delays like that won't help the game is living on a different planet to me
I know I've just highlighted one section of your post but I can't understand what delays you are talking about.
Can you still just hop the ball rather than solo in the ladies game?
It still looks wrong seeing the ball being picked up (Even iin the ladies game there can be a bunching up of a few players around the ball as they try to pick it up). There is no better sight than seeing a player pick up the ball in full flight (i.e following the ball) with a toe jab.
Sin bin works a treat in Ladies Football and wasn't given enough time in Senior Football and was not applied properly at the time. It would seriously cut out a lot of the cynicism in the game.
The lifting off the ground is fine as it is I think it doesn't need to be tinkered with. I still think that a mark from a kick out and all frees inside the 45 being taken off the ground would be a good thing and encourage the good skills in our game!!
The idea that just being allowed to pick the ball off the ground, using the rules that have been very successfully used in ladies football, would effect the skills of the game in any way is mind-boggling. All it means is no more stupid frees for picking the ball off the ground or flicks too quick for the ref to see. The player can get possession faster, he can pass the ball faster, he can create a chance faster.
Everyone was talking about how fisted points are some sort of scourge to goal chances and exciting football, yet the biggest scourge of exciting football is players messing around on the floor trying to control a ball properly and opposition players surrounding them.The slippery slope argument could be used to outlaw almost any change, I see absolutely no validity in it.
I have a real Problem with ladies football, is it the rules or the ladies
Apeing about trying to play a mans sport but without the moustaches.
By the way the only new rule I'd bring into gAelic football is that those with enough of an inferiority complex to insist on bringing in new rules from other sports, get a lifetime ban.
If we are honest with ourselves and by ourselves I include ronaldo, andy Carroll et all, soccer is shite, but we don't hear any of us calling for a solo and bounce to be brought in to make it more of a manly game
Quote from: rrhf on April 12, 2012, 10:29:42 PM
By the way the only new rule I'd bring into gAelic football is that those with enough of an inferiority complex to insist on bringing in new rules from other sports, get a lifetime ban.
You should never be so foolishly proud in life to think that you can't learn from others!
Such a crappy topic, how boring. Use would be good experts
Quote from: bustsummoves on April 13, 2012, 11:42:41 AM
Such a crappy topic, how boring. Use would be good experts
How does one use '...would be good experts?"
As a matter of interest - how legal are the following handpassess in this clip - http://youtu.be/tTMZFPzCZGU
1:01 Enda McGinley to Davy Harte
1:20 Ciaran Whelan's pass
and
2:30 Davy Harte's tackle
?
Whelan's is perfectly legal, McGinley's looks to be a throw and the tackle is a cowardly cheap shot, though I never noticed it before. Dooher was fouling in the same sequence of play as it happens.
Quote from: PAULD123 on April 13, 2012, 11:39:05 AM
Quote from: rrhf on April 12, 2012, 10:29:42 PM
By the way the only new rule I'd bring into gAelic football is that those with enough of an inferiority complex to insist on bringing in new rules from other sports, get a lifetime ban.
You should never be so foolishly proud in life to think that you can't learn from others!
I refute that on the basis that it is important to refute that