Have a few books by John Pilger, Richard Dawkins, Fisk, Hitchins etc.
Read some bits and pieces by Chomsky in waterstones and fancy getting some if his work next.
Anyone recommend which of his books is best to start with? Particularly interested in power of the media so maybe "understanding power" or "manufacturing consent"??
Also- all recommendations on any other books to do with media power/ bias would be gratefully received.......
Arent you the enlightened one....
I'd recommend Biggles Takes Charge by Captain W E Johns
Hegemony or survival is a good one about recent yankee colonialism
'Understanding Power' is brilliant, would definitely be the top of the list. 'Manufacturing Consent' is also excellent, if you're feeling lazy you can watch the documentary on google vids. Also recommended 'Failed States', 'Perilous Power', 'What We Say Goes'.
I'd also suggest checking out Howard Zinn and some of his stuff.
Im sure TO will have some good suggestions..
Was just thinking that myself, can't wait for this thread to get lively....
Add Norman Finkelstein to your list.
Quote from: ludermor on November 04, 2011, 11:00:01 AM
Im sure TO will have some good suggestions..
If TO does come on this thread, I hope he does make some suggestions. We know exactly the direction Chomsky is coming from and the suggestions of other posters would be for authors who would have similar leanings.
I'd like to know what other authors are out there who would come from the other direction i.e. the conservative Michael Moore, the conservative Noam Chomsky. Those are the suggestions I would like to see so we could compare and contrast.
Know your enemy.
QuoteI'd like to know what other authors are out there who would come from the other direction
How about this intellectual heavyweight?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Coulter#Bibliography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Coulter#Bibliography)
Or any thing by William Kristol?
Ann coulter is just a pathetic charicature at this stage, albeit one who knows her audience and what pushes their buttons. If you want a laugh, check out her Godless book, especially the evolution stuff!
Quote from: J70 on November 04, 2011, 12:43:13 PM
Ann coulter is just a pathetic charicature at this stage, albeit one who knows her audience and what pushes their buttons. If you want a laugh, check out her Godless book, especially the evolution stuff!
You'd still give her one though!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Ann_Coulter_2007_(Cut_image).jpg/220px-Ann_Coulter_2007_(Cut_image).jpg)
Not really... too much of the tranny look about her for my taste.
Quote from: J70 on November 04, 2011, 02:44:31 PM
Not really... too much of the tranny look about her for my taste.
Very elongated girl! Exceptionally long hands and fingers!!!!
If you are looking for something coming from the other direction I would advise you to avoid any recent stuff that gets anywhere near the top of the best seller charts. Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Hannity, Malkin or any of the other US right wingers just write name calling, button pushing garbage.
One book that I found fairly readable was Milton Friedman's "Free to Choose". It just addresses economic issues, no forign policy or social conservative stuff and even if you disagree with the message it is well written.
To compensate for your lack of elongation bcb1? :)
Gnome Chomsky.
(http://www.justsaygnome.net/uploads/2/6/1/3/2613300/772723_orig.jpg)
Thanks for the suggestions folks. Yes we occasionally read in Tyrone.... We just dint want to dispel the myths.
One book I read recently was Ian Rowland 'the full facts of cold reading'. If you enjoyed Derren Brown exposing how the fake psychics etc ply their trade this is the real deal. Probably the most authoritative book on the subject.
I read it and started watching those US TV programs where the (multi millionaire) spiritualised play to audiences of thousands. All thier techniques are crystal clear once you know what to look for.
Naomi Klein is another you might be interested in tm.
Aye - read No Logo a while ago and thought it was good. Might just look up her latest
As an owner of a book or two of John Pilger's works I was very interested/disappointed to read this article today, a tweet from Journo Oliver Kamm
I've written an assessment of the career of the late John Pilger. It's titled "John Pilger was a charlatan and a fraudster". Regrettably the facts do bear me out in this judgment. My thanks to @CapX for publishing it in full, for it is necessarily long.
https://capx.co/john-pilger-was-a-charlatan-and-a-fraudster/
Quote from: bennydorano on January 04, 2024, 01:57:56 PMAs an owner of a book or two of John Pilger's works I was very interested/disappointed to read this article today, a tweet from Journo Oliver Kamm
I've written an assessment of the career of the late John Pilger. It's titled "John Pilger was a charlatan and a fraudster". Regrettably the facts do bear me out in this judgment. My thanks to @CapX for publishing it in full, for it is necessarily long.
https://capx.co/john-pilger-was-a-charlatan-and-a-fraudster/
Pilger is like many others, they appear normal at the start. When they're championing right-on, left wing causes they get a free pass.
They eventually implode into anti-Western, anti-US, anti-NATO madness. They'll back any regime with the same goals.
A few months back, Pilger was praising a pro-Putin article by Chay Bowes. That's how far he had plummeted.
Quote from: bennydorano on January 04, 2024, 01:57:56 PMAs an owner of a book or two of John Pilger's works I was very interested/disappointed to read this article today, a tweet from Journo Oliver Kamm
I've written an assessment of the career of the late John Pilger. It's titled "John Pilger was a charlatan and a fraudster". Regrettably the facts do bear me out in this judgment. My thanks to @CapX for publishing it in full, for it is necessarily long.
https://capx.co/john-pilger-was-a-charlatan-and-a-fraudster/
That's a bit of a hit piece. Slagging off his grammar and writing style, and concluding that a source must have been made up by Pilger just because he (the author) couldn't track it down.
Not saying there's not truth to some of the criticisms (don't know enough about Pilger to say), but I'd be looking for other sources before taking this author's word.
Quote from: Dag Dog on January 04, 2024, 05:57:38 PMQuote from: bennydorano on January 04, 2024, 01:57:56 PMAs an owner of a book or two of John Pilger's works I was very interested/disappointed to read this article today, a tweet from Journo Oliver Kamm
I've written an assessment of the career of the late John Pilger. It's titled "John Pilger was a charlatan and a fraudster". Regrettably the facts do bear me out in this judgment. My thanks to @CapX for publishing it in full, for it is necessarily long.
https://capx.co/john-pilger-was-a-charlatan-and-a-fraudster/
Pilger is like many others, they appear normal at the start. When they're championing right-on, left wing causes they get a free pass.
They eventually implode into anti-Western, anti-US, anti-NATO madness. They'll back any regime with the same goals.
A few months back, Pilger was praising a pro-Putin article by Chay Bowes. That's how far he had plummeted.
Well maybe it is right to be Anti US, Anti NATO etc - if you hadn't noticed they seem to be the ones starting most wars and lying about them to us. Are they any better really than Putin?
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on January 05, 2024, 02:44:06 AMQuote from: bennydorano on January 04, 2024, 01:57:56 PMAs an owner of a book or two of John Pilger's works I was very interested/disappointed to read this article today, a tweet from Journo Oliver Kamm
I've written an assessment of the career of the late John Pilger. It's titled "John Pilger was a charlatan and a fraudster". Regrettably the facts do bear me out in this judgment. My thanks to @CapX for publishing it in full, for it is necessarily long.
https://capx.co/john-pilger-was-a-charlatan-and-a-fraudster/
That's a bit of a hit piece. Slagging off his grammar and writing style, and concluding that a source must have been made up by Pilger just because he (the author) couldn't track it down.
Not saying there's not truth to some of the criticisms (don't know enough about Pilger to say), but I'd be looking for other sources before taking this author's word.
Look who wrote this hit piece and who published it first.
Pilger wasn't perfect, no one is, but even some of the items this lad says he was incorrect in were factually correct.
I liked his stuff but always second source it.
The thing I noticed when Pilger died was there weren't many gushing tributes on twitter. John Simpson of C4 news gave a very cold factual one I found a bit odd tbh, Piers Morgan gave a good one (because he worked with him at the Mirror). But I was expecting a love in.
This one here is the first to actually stick their head above the parapet and say what they really think I reckon. Its an opinion piece, but every one has their blindspots & niaivities.
Quote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 08:02:03 AMQuote from: Dag Dog on January 04, 2024, 05:57:38 PMQuote from: bennydorano on January 04, 2024, 01:57:56 PMAs an owner of a book or two of John Pilger's works I was very interested/disappointed to read this article today, a tweet from Journo Oliver Kamm
I've written an assessment of the career of the late John Pilger. It's titled "John Pilger was a charlatan and a fraudster". Regrettably the facts do bear me out in this judgment. My thanks to @CapX for publishing it in full, for it is necessarily long.
https://capx.co/john-pilger-was-a-charlatan-and-a-fraudster/
Pilger is like many others, they appear normal at the start. When they're championing right-on, left wing causes they get a free pass.
They eventually implode into anti-Western, anti-US, anti-NATO madness. They'll back any regime with the same goals.
A few months back, Pilger was praising a pro-Putin article by Chay Bowes. That's how far he had plummeted.
Well maybe it is right to be Anti US, Anti NATO etc - if you hadn't noticed they seem to be the ones starting most wars and lying about them to us. Are they any better really than Putin?
Depends what "better" means. If the US sweeps into Mexico, captures 20% of it's territory, rapes, ethnic cleanses, captures Mexican children and sends them to be re-educated by USA parents, it would be "equal" to Putin at least.
Pilger clearly lost any moral compass when he started downplaying stuff like Srebrenica, purely because the enemy of his enemy was his friend.
But listen, alternative voice, fascinating views, thought provoking, doing your own research etc.
The idiots idea of a smart guy.
Quote from: bennydorano on January 05, 2024, 09:34:06 AMThe thing I noticed when Pilger died was there weren't many gushing tributes on twitter. John Simpson of C4 news gave a very cold factual one I found a bit odd tbh, Piers Morgan gave a good one (because he worked with him at the Mirror). But I was expecting a love in.
This one here is the first to actually stick their head above the parapet and say what they really think I reckon. Its an opinion piece, but every one has their blindspots & niaivities.
Some more clues here.
https://twitter.com/fergalrte/status/1741874308258099213
Better in comparison to the Iraq war, Syrian war, Gaza (I could go on). The USA (and NATO) are not the good guys. If you think they are I am afraid you are the victim of their concerted propaganda.
Quote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 09:40:09 AMBetter in comparison to the Iraq war, Syrian war, Gaza (I could go on). The USA (and NATO) are not the good guys. If you think they are I am afraid you are the victim of their concerted propaganda.
Better? Castrating and raping must be the better ones in your eyes.
Remind me how much Iraqi territory the USA managed to capture as their 51st state then?
No doubt you think that Assad and Putin are the good guys in Syria, because you do your own research, avoid the MSN.
Quote from: Dag Dog on January 05, 2024, 09:58:25 AMQuote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 09:40:09 AMBetter in comparison to the Iraq war, Syrian war, Gaza (I could go on). The USA (and NATO) are not the good guys. If you think they are I am afraid you are the victim of their concerted propaganda.
Better? Castrating and raping must be the better ones in your eyes.
Remind me how much Iraqi territory the USA managed to capture as their 51st state then?
No doubt you think that Assad and Putin are the good guys in Syria, because you do your own research, avoid the MSN.
I take your castrating/raping and I raise you Vietnam (raping and murder) and an illegal war started in Iraq with the lie of Weapons of Mass Destruction with 100's of thousands dead
Have a read of this Uncle Tom
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/15/war-on-terror-911-deaths-afghanistan-iraq/
4.5m deaths following 9/11 caused by the USA, 1m directly and 3.5m indirectly. I don't have figures on how many US soliders raped and castrated to hand but judging by what they were at in the guantanamo and abu ghraib I would be fairly confident their soldiers would be at pretty much the same horrors that the Russians are at.
The difference here is you think USA good, Russia Bad. I think USA Bad, Russia Bad. You need to open your eyes my friend.
Quote from: bennydorano on January 05, 2024, 09:34:06 AMThe thing I noticed when Pilger died was there weren't many gushing tributes on twitter. John Simpson of C4 news gave a very cold factual one I found a bit odd tbh, Piers Morgan gave a good one (because he worked with him at the Mirror). But I was expecting a love in.
This one here is the first to actually stick their head above the parapet and say what they really think I reckon. Its an opinion piece, but every one has their blindspots & niaivities.
Yes, but he waited till he was dead, libel laws and all that.
Quote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 10:25:25 AMQuote from: Dag Dog on January 05, 2024, 09:58:25 AMQuote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 09:40:09 AMBetter in comparison to the Iraq war, Syrian war, Gaza (I could go on). The USA (and NATO) are not the good guys. If you think they are I am afraid you are the victim of their concerted propaganda.
Better? Castrating and raping must be the better ones in your eyes.
Remind me how much Iraqi territory the USA managed to capture as their 51st state then?
No doubt you think that Assad and Putin are the good guys in Syria, because you do your own research, avoid the MSN.
I take your castrating/raping and I raise you Vietnam (raping and murder) and an illegal war started in Iraq with the lie of Weapons of Mass Destruction with 100's of thousands dead
Have a read of this Uncle Tom
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/15/war-on-terror-911-deaths-afghanistan-iraq/
4.5m deaths following 9/11 caused by the USA, 1m directly and 3.5m indirectly. I don't have figures on how many US soliders raped and castrated to hand but judging by what they were at in the guantanamo and abu ghraib I would be fairly confident their soldiers would be at pretty much the same horrors that the Russians are at.
The difference here is you think USA good, Russia Bad. I think USA Bad, Russia Bad. You need to open your eyes my friend.
And how does this make it right for Pilger to be a Putin stooge?
Quote from: Dag Dog on January 05, 2024, 11:20:10 AMQuote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 10:25:25 AMQuote from: Dag Dog on January 05, 2024, 09:58:25 AMQuote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 09:40:09 AMBetter in comparison to the Iraq war, Syrian war, Gaza (I could go on). The USA (and NATO) are not the good guys. If you think they are I am afraid you are the victim of their concerted propaganda.
Better? Castrating and raping must be the better ones in your eyes.
Remind me how much Iraqi territory the USA managed to capture as their 51st state then?
No doubt you think that Assad and Putin are the good guys in Syria, because you do your own research, avoid the MSN.
I take your castrating/raping and I raise you Vietnam (raping and murder) and an illegal war started in Iraq with the lie of Weapons of Mass Destruction with 100's of thousands dead
Have a read of this Uncle Tom
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/15/war-on-terror-911-deaths-afghanistan-iraq/
4.5m deaths following 9/11 caused by the USA, 1m directly and 3.5m indirectly. I don't have figures on how many US soliders raped and castrated to hand but judging by what they were at in the guantanamo and abu ghraib I would be fairly confident their soldiers would be at pretty much the same horrors that the Russians are at.
The difference here is you think USA good, Russia Bad. I think USA Bad, Russia Bad. You need to open your eyes my friend.
And how does this make it right for Pilger to be a Putin stooge?
I was defending his right to be Anti NATO and Anti US, you took umbrage with that. If being Anti US and Anti NATO make you a Putin Stooge than I suppose I must be a Putin Stooge too.
Makes me 'Putin Stooge' as well I guess. I didn't think that was a controversial position these days.
Quote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 11:48:22 AMQuote from: Dag Dog on January 05, 2024, 11:20:10 AMQuote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 10:25:25 AMQuote from: Dag Dog on January 05, 2024, 09:58:25 AMQuote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 09:40:09 AMBetter in comparison to the Iraq war, Syrian war, Gaza (I could go on). The USA (and NATO) are not the good guys. If you think they are I am afraid you are the victim of their concerted propaganda.
Better? Castrating and raping must be the better ones in your eyes.
Remind me how much Iraqi territory the USA managed to capture as their 51st state then?
No doubt you think that Assad and Putin are the good guys in Syria, because you do your own research, avoid the MSN.
I take your castrating/raping and I raise you Vietnam (raping and murder) and an illegal war started in Iraq with the lie of Weapons of Mass Destruction with 100's of thousands dead
Have a read of this Uncle Tom
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/15/war-on-terror-911-deaths-afghanistan-iraq/
4.5m deaths following 9/11 caused by the USA, 1m directly and 3.5m indirectly. I don't have figures on how many US soliders raped and castrated to hand but judging by what they were at in the guantanamo and abu ghraib I would be fairly confident their soldiers would be at pretty much the same horrors that the Russians are at.
The difference here is you think USA good, Russia Bad. I think USA Bad, Russia Bad. You need to open your eyes my friend.
And how does this make it right for Pilger to be a Putin stooge?
I was defending his right to be Anti NATO and Anti US, you took umbrage with that. If being Anti US and Anti NATO make you a Putin Stooge than I suppose I must be a Putin Stooge too.
He can hold whatever views he wants, but a journalist should be objective.
If he whitewashes genocide like Srebrenica because it was carried out by a group he favours, then that is dangerous.
I think the larger point is Pilger is accused of lying, making up facts, numerous other things to suit his anti NATO / western agenda . Alternative facts if you will. I'd lay a £ to 1p that most of those arguing here never read the linked article.
Being anti-US foreign policy doesn't make John Pilger a Putin stooge, excusing Putin's war crimes in Syria, Ukraine or wherever make him a Putin stooge or apologist would be a better word.
Guys like John Pilger and Noam Chomsky lost the plot somewhere along the way - everything has to fit into their anti-West viewpoint.
Quote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 08:02:03 AMQuote from: Dag Dog on January 04, 2024, 05:57:38 PMQuote from: bennydorano on January 04, 2024, 01:57:56 PMAs an owner of a book or two of John Pilger's works I was very interested/disappointed to read this article today, a tweet from Journo Oliver Kamm
I've written an assessment of the career of the late John Pilger. It's titled "John Pilger was a charlatan and a fraudster". Regrettably the facts do bear me out in this judgment. My thanks to @CapX for publishing it in full, for it is necessarily long.
https://capx.co/john-pilger-was-a-charlatan-and-a-fraudster/
Pilger is like many others, they appear normal at the start. When they're championing right-on, left wing causes they get a free pass.
They eventually implode into anti-Western, anti-US, anti-NATO madness. They'll back any regime with the same goals.
A few months back, Pilger was praising a pro-Putin article by Chay Bowes. That's how far he had plummeted.
Well maybe it is right to be Anti US, Anti NATO etc - if you hadn't noticed they seem to be the ones starting most wars and lying about them to us. Are they any better really than Putin?
It's all well and fine to scrutinise US Nato policy/actions, but apply the same level of scrutiny towards Russia/USSR. Pilger did not and instead avidly followed every Kremlin propoganda utterance to the last and spewed it out word for word in his articles and social media, just as the goody goody usefull idiot he turned out to be.
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 01:03:26 PMBeing anti-US foreign policy doesn't make John Pilger a Putin stooge, excusing Putin's war crimes in Syria, Ukraine or wherever make him a Putin stooge or apologist would be a better word.
Guys like John Pilger and Noam Chomsky lost the plot somewhere along the way - everything has to fit into their anti-West viewpoint.
John Waters, Gemma O'Doherty and Ewan MacKenna are similar.
Quote from: Dag Dog on January 05, 2024, 01:59:07 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 01:03:26 PMBeing anti-US foreign policy doesn't make John Pilger a Putin stooge, excusing Putin's war crimes in Syria, Ukraine or wherever make him a Putin stooge or apologist would be a better word.
Guys like John Pilger and Noam Chomsky lost the plot somewhere along the way - everything has to fit into their anti-West viewpoint.
John Waters, Gemma O'Doherty and Ewan MacKenna are similar.
Agreed - also just like BBC, ITV, RTE, Times, Indo etc do for the US and NATO. Sadly.
Quote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 02:06:13 PMQuote from: Dag Dog on January 05, 2024, 01:59:07 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 01:03:26 PMBeing anti-US foreign policy doesn't make John Pilger a Putin stooge, excusing Putin's war crimes in Syria, Ukraine or wherever make him a Putin stooge or apologist would be a better word.
Guys like John Pilger and Noam Chomsky lost the plot somewhere along the way - everything has to fit into their anti-West viewpoint.
John Waters, Gemma O'Doherty and Ewan MacKenna are similar.
Agreed - also just like BBC, ITV, RTE, Times, Indo etc do for the US and NATO. Sadly.
Itchy, if you lived in Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia, would you rather be a member of NATO or not a member of NATO? Bearing in mind you said, Putin bad.
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 02:10:36 PMQuote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 02:06:13 PMQuote from: Dag Dog on January 05, 2024, 01:59:07 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 01:03:26 PMBeing anti-US foreign policy doesn't make John Pilger a Putin stooge, excusing Putin's war crimes in Syria, Ukraine or wherever make him a Putin stooge or apologist would be a better word.
Guys like John Pilger and Noam Chomsky lost the plot somewhere along the way - everything has to fit into their anti-West viewpoint.
John Waters, Gemma O'Doherty and Ewan MacKenna are similar.
Agreed - also just like BBC, ITV, RTE, Times, Indo etc do for the US and NATO. Sadly.
Itchy, if you lived in Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia, would you rather be a member of NATO or not a member of NATO? Bearing in mind you said, Putin bad.
Not a member of NATO. I might like to be a member of the EU though. Again, that's from the outside looking in. Of those 3 countries I have only been to Lithuania a few times. You don't have to look too hard there to find US soldiers in the hotels in Lithuania - why is that?
Quote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 02:18:49 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 02:10:36 PMQuote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 02:06:13 PMQuote from: Dag Dog on January 05, 2024, 01:59:07 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 01:03:26 PMBeing anti-US foreign policy doesn't make John Pilger a Putin stooge, excusing Putin's war crimes in Syria, Ukraine or wherever make him a Putin stooge or apologist would be a better word.
Guys like John Pilger and Noam Chomsky lost the plot somewhere along the way - everything has to fit into their anti-West viewpoint.
John Waters, Gemma O'Doherty and Ewan MacKenna are similar.
Agreed - also just like BBC, ITV, RTE, Times, Indo etc do for the US and NATO. Sadly.
Itchy, if you lived in Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia, would you rather be a member of NATO or not a member of NATO? Bearing in mind you said, Putin bad.
Not a member of NATO. I might like to be a member of the EU though. Again, that's from the outside looking in. Of those 3 countries I have only been to Lithuania a few times. You don't have to look too hard there to find US soldiers in the hotels in Lithuania - why is that?
Ok, I asked the wrong question. Why do you think all the countries that were occupied by the Soviet Union/Soviet puppet regimes after WW2 wanted desperately to join NATO?
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 02:24:08 PMQuote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 02:18:49 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 02:10:36 PMQuote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 02:06:13 PMQuote from: Dag Dog on January 05, 2024, 01:59:07 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 01:03:26 PMBeing anti-US foreign policy doesn't make John Pilger a Putin stooge, excusing Putin's war crimes in Syria, Ukraine or wherever make him a Putin stooge or apologist would be a better word.
Guys like John Pilger and Noam Chomsky lost the plot somewhere along the way - everything has to fit into their anti-West viewpoint.
John Waters, Gemma O'Doherty and Ewan MacKenna are similar.
Agreed - also just like BBC, ITV, RTE, Times, Indo etc do for the US and NATO. Sadly.
Itchy, if you lived in Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia, would you rather be a member of NATO or not a member of NATO? Bearing in mind you said, Putin bad.
Not a member of NATO. I might like to be a member of the EU though. Again, that's from the outside looking in. Of those 3 countries I have only been to Lithuania a few times. You don't have to look too hard there to find US soldiers in the hotels in Lithuania - why is that?
Ok, I asked the wrong question. Why do you think all the countries that were occupied by the Soviet Union/Soviet puppet regimes after WW2 wanted desperately to join NATO?
Because the Yanks have convinced them they will be protected if they do. Reality is that they instead provoked Russia and the Yanks and Nato cant help them now. Now you may say that Russia was not provoked and that Ukraine or whoever should be allowed to join whatever they want. Fair enough. But the Yanks didnt like it when Cuba was aligned with Russia and to this day have a melt down if you mention Cuba to them. USA and Russia are mirror images of each other. That is my point. It is stupid to thing one is morally better than the other. They are both selfish, self-serving tyrants and are ruthless.
The Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.
Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia. Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?
As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.
Quote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 02:57:36 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 02:24:08 PMQuote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 02:18:49 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 02:10:36 PMQuote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 02:06:13 PMQuote from: Dag Dog on January 05, 2024, 01:59:07 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 01:03:26 PMBeing anti-US foreign policy doesn't make John Pilger a Putin stooge, excusing Putin's war crimes in Syria, Ukraine or wherever make him a Putin stooge or apologist would be a better word.
Guys like John Pilger and Noam Chomsky lost the plot somewhere along the way - everything has to fit into their anti-West viewpoint.
John Waters, Gemma O'Doherty and Ewan MacKenna are similar.
Agreed - also just like BBC, ITV, RTE, Times, Indo etc do for the US and NATO. Sadly.
Itchy, if you lived in Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia, would you rather be a member of NATO or not a member of NATO? Bearing in mind you said, Putin bad.
Not a member of NATO. I might like to be a member of the EU though. Again, that's from the outside looking in. Of those 3 countries I have only been to Lithuania a few times. You don't have to look too hard there to find US soldiers in the hotels in Lithuania - why is that?
Ok, I asked the wrong question. Why do you think all the countries that were occupied by the Soviet Union/Soviet puppet regimes after WW2 wanted desperately to join NATO?
Because the Yanks have convinced them they will be protected if they do. Reality is that they instead provoked Russia and the Yanks and Nato cant help them now. Now you may say that Russia was not provoked and that Ukraine or whoever should be allowed to join whatever they want. Fair enough. But the Yanks didnt like it when Cuba was aligned with Russia and to this day have a melt down if you mention Cuba to them. USA and Russia are mirror images of each other. That is my point. It is stupid to thing one is morally better than the other. They are both selfish, self-serving tyrants and are ruthless.
Russia and the US are not mirror images of each other. Russia is a place whose economy isn't much bigger than Spain that is trying to pretend that they are still a world power, the US is not perfect but it has a much more positive role in the world. People want to go to the US from Russia, not so many in the opposite direction.
European countries are right to join NATO and I doubt if the US will abandon them, unless that pr!ck Trump gets in.
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 03:23:55 PMThe Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.
Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia. Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?
As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.
The US were planning on installing nuclear weapons on their bases in Italy and Turkey
prior to the Soviets attempting to install them in Cuba.
Neither were in the Warsaw pact but they allowed the US to have nuclear bases close to Soviet borders.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 03:23:55 PMThe Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.
Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia. Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?
As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.
How do you know that?
If you think I'm excusing Russia you can't read
Quote from: johnnycool on January 05, 2024, 03:39:51 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 03:23:55 PMThe Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.
Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia. Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?
As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.
The US were planning on installing nuclear weapons on their bases in Italy and Turkey prior to the Soviets attempting to install them in Cuba.
Neither were in the Warsaw pact but they allowed the US to have nuclear bases close to Soviet borders.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
Quote from: johnnycool on January 05, 2024, 03:39:51 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 03:23:55 PMThe Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.
Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia. Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?
As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.
The US were planning on installing nuclear weapons on their bases in Italy and Turkey prior to the Soviets attempting to install them in Cuba.
Neither were in the Warsaw pact but they allowed the US to have nuclear bases close to Soviet borders.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
The US attitude towards Cuba is being used as another excuse for Russian aggression.
Quote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 03:57:05 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 03:23:55 PMThe Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.
Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia. Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?
As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.
How do you know that?
If you think I'm excusing Russia you can't read
It's quite clear you don't know much on the topic of which you speak. It look Lithuania 10 years to become a NATO member. It involved a lot of work and political manoeuvring and lobbying of existing NATO members on the part of the Lithuanians.
You excuse Russia implicitly. Have you ever said a bad thing about Russia in a sentence what didn't also mention the USA. Do you whitewash the crimes of Israel in the same way? Gaza bombed - Ah sure, everyone's at it, the Russians bombed Kyiv last week murdering dozens of civilians. That's what you and John Pilger and Noam Chomsky do for Russia. You even said they were 'provoked' - that's complete apologia.
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 05:25:03 PMQuote from: johnnycool on January 05, 2024, 03:39:51 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 03:23:55 PMThe Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.
Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia. Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?
As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.
The US were planning on installing nuclear weapons on their bases in Italy and Turkey prior to the Soviets attempting to install them in Cuba.
Neither were in the Warsaw pact but they allowed the US to have nuclear bases close to Soviet borders.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
Quote from: johnnycool on January 05, 2024, 03:39:51 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 03:23:55 PMThe Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.
Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia. Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?
As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.
The US were planning on installing nuclear weapons on their bases in Italy and Turkey prior to the Soviets attempting to install them in Cuba.
Neither were in the Warsaw pact but they allowed the US to have nuclear bases close to Soviet borders.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
The US attitude towards Cuba is being used as another excuse for Russian aggression.Quote from: Itchy on January 05, 2024, 03:57:05 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 05, 2024, 03:23:55 PMThe Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.
Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia. Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?
As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.
How do you know that?
If you think I'm excusing Russia you can't read
It's quite clear you don't know much on the topic of which you speak. It look Lithuania 10 years to become a NATO member. It involved a lot of work and political manoeuvring and lobbying of existing NATO members on the part of the Lithuanians.
You excuse Russia implicitly. Have you ever said a bad thing about Russia in a sentence what didn't also mention the USA. Do you whitewash the crimes of Israel in the same way? Gaza bombed - Ah sure, everyone's at it, the Russians bombed Kyiv last week murdering dozens of civilians. That's what you and John Pilger and Noam Chomsky do for Russia. You even said they were 'provoked' - that's complete apologia.
Go over on the Gaza thread and see what I say about Israel you utter clown. As for the rest of your gibberish, it's not worth responding to as even when I clearly say something you basically say I don't mean it.
I don't need to go to the Gaza thread to know that you don't attempt to excuse the Israelis actions by whatabouting someone else. Only Russia gets that service.
No need for the abuse, thank you.
@ThomasMullan,
The US attitude towards Cuba is being used as another excuse for Russian aggression.
The current US attitude towards Cuba is once again an utter disgrace from the US, but it all started with US aggression which the Soviets countered.
Now if the US start building "NATO" bases in Poland and the likes then yes, it's hardly a surprise that the Russians counter that in some way with the aggressive annexation of East Ukraine and Crimea which I don't condone.
Has the Ukraine Army a Nazi problem? Well yes they do, but lets not talk about that.
Quote from: johnnycool on January 08, 2024, 08:17:11 AM@ThomasMullan,
The US attitude towards Cuba is being used as another excuse for Russian aggression.
The current US attitude towards Cuba is once again an utter disgrace from the US, but it all started with US aggression which the Soviets countered.
Now if the US start building "NATO" bases in Poland and the likes then yes, it's hardly a surprise that the Russians counter that in some way with the aggressive annexation of East Ukraine and Crimea which I don't condone.
Has the Ukraine Army a Nazi problem? Well yes they do, but lets not talk about that.
Have the US attempted to install nuclear weapons in Poland? Until they do Cuba is a red herring.
In fact NATO is a complete Red Herring. Is Russia worried about an imminent invasion from Finland now that they are in NATO? No they are not. The only threat NATO poses to Russia is to counter their ability to bully, threaten and invade their neighbours, as in Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine. Which is why all the former soviet bloc countries, who know Russia best, wanted to join ASAP. It's very easy for us to criticise NATO, look at it from the point of view of a countries under threat from Russia.
And as for the 'Ukraine Army Nazi Problem', no let's talk about it. Tell me all about it please. Go.
And since Neo-Nazis are such a genuine concern for Russia, tell me all about Wagner and Rusich as well.
Russia also talks about the 'Nazi regime in Kiev (sic)'. They can't explain away the Jewish president of the Nazi regime though. Or the fact that in the Verkhovna Rada only 1/450 seats is occupied by a far right party. Compare that to France, for example, or any Western European country.
And take a look at what Russia actually is. It's a Mafia State that has now descended into open fascism.
Tankie logic about Putin and Nato goes like, the burglar broke into the house because the owner provoked them by wanting to install an alarm system. What did they expect the reaction to be? It's the owner and the alarm company's fault.
There was never going to be any burglaries, until they started putting security in.
Quote from: Dag Dog on January 09, 2024, 11:15:00 AMTankie logic about Putin and Nato goes like, the burglar broke into the house because the owner provoked them by wanting to install an alarm system. What did they expect the reaction to be? It's the owner and the alarm company's fault.
There was never going to be any burglaries, until they started putting security in.
Correct. The burglar overheard the owner saying they were getting new security installed so they thought they'd better move fast.
Though in this case the burglar actually intends to become a squatter, wreck the house as well as stealing all possessions, rape the owner's family, take a sh*t in every room and kidnap the owner's children. And tell them it's for their own good.
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 09, 2024, 01:31:58 PMQuote from: Dag Dog on January 09, 2024, 11:15:00 AMTankie logic about Putin and Nato goes like, the burglar broke into the house because the owner provoked them by wanting to install an alarm system. What did they expect the reaction to be? It's the owner and the alarm company's fault.
There was never going to be any burglaries, until they started putting security in.
Correct. The burglar overheard the owner saying they were getting new security installed so they thought they'd better move fast.
Though in this case the burglar actually intends to become a squatter, wreck the house as well as stealing all possessions, rape the owner's family, take a sh*t in every room and kidnap the owner's children. And tell them it's for their own good.
And the other neighbouring houses now installing home security measures are completely overreacting and only provoking a peaceful and friendly burglar.
Itchy,
To answer your question (which was deleted, presumably because of your bad language):
The US has a military presence in different countries for different reasons. In the case of Poland, Romania and Lithuania, it's because the democratically elected governments of those countries have requested a US military presence for security reasons. You will find that this is because of their friendly neighbour to the east, which has spent much of the last 30 years pulverising Moldova, Georgia, one of it's captive nations Ichkeria, and of course now Ukraine.
Perhaps you think that the Poles, Romanians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians et al have it all wrong? Perhaps you have gained some experience from living under Russian occupation yourself?
So your reasons for the US having over 700 military bases outside their own country is because they were invited to help those countries where the bases are installed and they did this out of the kindness of their heart?
I am asking you about the motives of America, not Russia by the way. I ask as you do seem to be the resident authority on this topic so educate me.
I know you're not asking me about the motives of Russia, that goes without saying, because like Chomsky and Pilger et al, you have an ideology that everything is the fault of the US and every narrative will be twisted to fit that worldview. If war broke out again tomorrow between Lilliput and Blefescu, you would think the US was behind it.
I also note that I asked you a question you about the Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians and Romanians which you completely ignored. Let's talk about their motives, do they even exist to you? Or do you just dismiss them as many of the anti-US commentators of today just dismiss the Ukrainians?
What motivates Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Romania to join NATO and request US/NATO forces on their territory?
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 10, 2024, 09:11:36 AMI know you're not asking me about the motives of Russia, that goes without saying, because like Chomsky and Pilger et al, you have an ideology that everything is the fault of the US and every narrative will be twisted to fit that worldview. If war broke out again tomorrow between Lilliput and Blefescu, you would think the US was behind it.
I also note that I asked you a question you about the Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians and Romanians which you completely ignored. Let's talk about their motives, do they even exist to you? Or do you just dismiss them as many of the anti-US commentators of today just dismiss the Ukrainians?
What motivates Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Romania to join NATO and request US/NATO forces on their territory?
This has panned out exactly how I had thought it would. You wont answer the question I asked and instead want to divert this to another conversation. Sorry, if you haven't the balls (please don't report me to mods again for using that word like a wee baby) to answer a question just say so sliver off to whereever you came from.
Quote from: Itchy on January 10, 2024, 11:18:10 AMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 10, 2024, 09:11:36 AMI know you're not asking me about the motives of Russia, that goes without saying, because like Chomsky and Pilger et al, you have an ideology that everything is the fault of the US and every narrative will be twisted to fit that worldview. If war broke out again tomorrow between Lilliput and Blefescu, you would think the US was behind it.
I also note that I asked you a question you about the Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians and Romanians which you completely ignored. Let's talk about their motives, do they even exist to you? Or do you just dismiss them as many of the anti-US commentators of today just dismiss the Ukrainians?
What motivates Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Romania to join NATO and request US/NATO forces on their territory?
This has panned out exactly how I had thought it would. You wont answer the question I asked and instead want to divert this to another conversation. Sorry, if you haven't the balls (please don't report me to mods again for using that word like a wee baby) to answer a question just say so sliver off to whereever you came from.
No need to throw the toys out of the pram. I didn't report you to anybody, the Mods must have deleted your foul post and also my first reply, presumably because it quoted your foul remarks.
The conversation has also gone exactly as I predicted with you scurrying away (again).
You run away because you (like your heroes Chomsky and Pilger) refuse to recognise that democratic countries have agency and have the right to choose alliances with other countries as they see fit. You completely ignore their concerns about Russia, seeing them only as stupid pawns in a nefarious American plot.
Your outlook on the world is that of an angry teenager with a Che Guevara poster on the wall. Moronic and simplistic.
The US have been no saints in the past with interventions in a number of countries eg Chile and removing Allende.
That said Russia is a dictatorship and their actions are more nefarious than most, internally never mind Ukraine. China also with their "softer" approach (excluding the Uighur's amongst others which are less soft) to colonising half the developed world with infrastructure investment which is putting the US on the back foot to the point where Trump, if likely elected, will withdraw the US from a lot of world affairs other than greasing the palms of those who helped him.
Geopolitics is a dirty game.
Quote from: blasmere on January 10, 2024, 01:37:04 PMThe US have been no saints in the past with interventions in a number of countries eg Chile and removing Allende.
That said Russia is a dictatorship and their actions are more nefarious than most, internally never mind Ukraine. China also with their "softer" approach (excluding the Uighur's amongst others which are less soft) to colonising half the developed world with infrastructure investment which is putting the US on the back foot to the point where Trump, if likely elected, will withdraw the US from a lot of world affairs other than greasing the palms of those who helped him.
Geopolitics is a dirty game.
And in the present
Quote from: Itchy on January 10, 2024, 01:43:24 PMQuote from: blasmere on January 10, 2024, 01:37:04 PMThe US have been no saints in the past with interventions in a number of countries eg Chile and removing Allende.
That said Russia is a dictatorship and their actions are more nefarious than most, internally never mind Ukraine. China also with their "softer" approach (excluding the Uighur's amongst others which are less soft) to colonising half the developed world with infrastructure investment which is putting the US on the back foot to the point where Trump, if likely elected, will withdraw the US from a lot of world affairs other than greasing the palms of those who helped him.
Geopolitics is a dirty game.
And in the present
Which no one is disputing. It's explaining away the crimes of the other bad actors in the world to the point of apologia that is the issue with the likes of Chomsky and Pilger (and yourself).
Another example of this phenomenon - take the aforementioned Uyghur in China and what the great left wing, socialist woman of the people Clare Daly had to say about the matter quite recently.
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 10, 2024, 03:21:19 PMQuote from: Itchy on January 10, 2024, 01:43:24 PMQuote from: blasmere on January 10, 2024, 01:37:04 PMThe US have been no saints in the past with interventions in a number of countries eg Chile and removing Allende.
That said Russia is a dictatorship and their actions are more nefarious than most, internally never mind Ukraine. China also with their "softer" approach (excluding the Uighur's amongst others which are less soft) to colonising half the developed world with infrastructure investment which is putting the US on the back foot to the point where Trump, if likely elected, will withdraw the US from a lot of world affairs other than greasing the palms of those who helped him.
Geopolitics is a dirty game.
And in the present
Which no one is disputing. It's explaining away the crimes of the other bad actors in the world to the point of apologia that is the issue with the likes of Chomsky and Pilger (and yourself).
Another example of this phenomenon - take the aforementioned Uyghur in China and what the great left wing, socialist woman of the people Clare Daly had to say about the matter quite recently.
Is that not what you are doing explaining away the crimes of the other bad actors in the world to the point of apologia?
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 03:43:45 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 10, 2024, 03:21:19 PMQuote from: Itchy on January 10, 2024, 01:43:24 PMQuote from: blasmere on January 10, 2024, 01:37:04 PMThe US have been no saints in the past with interventions in a number of countries eg Chile and removing Allende.
That said Russia is a dictatorship and their actions are more nefarious than most, internally never mind Ukraine. China also with their "softer" approach (excluding the Uighur's amongst others which are less soft) to colonising half the developed world with infrastructure investment which is putting the US on the back foot to the point where Trump, if likely elected, will withdraw the US from a lot of world affairs other than greasing the palms of those who helped him.
Geopolitics is a dirty game.
And in the present
Which no one is disputing. It's explaining away the crimes of the other bad actors in the world to the point of apologia that is the issue with the likes of Chomsky and Pilger (and yourself).
Another example of this phenomenon - take the aforementioned Uyghur in China and what the great left wing, socialist woman of the people Clare Daly had to say about the matter quite recently.
Is that not what you are doing explaining away the crimes of the other bad actors in the world to the point of apologia?
No. What I'm doing is looking at things from the point of view of Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Romania et al. NATO is needed for the security of Europe.
You won't, however, see me attempting to explain away the criminal invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, support of Israel and other things the US have done.
Itchy and the like, won't criticise Russia directly just in a catch all. A bit like a Unionist politician being asked to condemn Loyalist violence and coming out with the mealy-mouthed, 'I condemn all violence'. That's exactly what he does.
What Itchy actually said
"USA and Russia are mirror images of each other"
"They are both selfish, self-serving tyrants and are ruthless"
Do you want me to put each statement in separate posts or something?
Russia is bad
America is bad
Russia is no better than America
America is no better than Russia
Putin is a Tyrant
Biden is a Tyrant
How else would you like me to spell it out for you??
Is that not the same thing as Israel making out that Oct 7 happened in isolation and there is no context or history. You are setting the perimeter of what can be discussed.
Quote from: Itchy on January 10, 2024, 04:29:22 PMWhat Itchy actually said
"USA and Russia are mirror images of each other"
"They are both selfish, self-serving tyrants and are ruthless"
Do you want me to put each statement in separate posts or something?
Russia is bad
America is bad
Russia is no better than America
America is no better than Russia
Putin is a Tyrant
Biden is a Tyrant
How else would you like me to spell it out for you??
You've actually just proven my point. Have you ever criticised anything Russia has done in a post without referencing the US?
Oh wait, you condemn all violence. Got it.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 04:32:21 PMIs that not the same thing as Israel making out that Oct 7 happened in isolation and there is no context or history. You are setting the perimeter of what can be discussed.
No, discuss anything you like.
I'm simply stating the the 'US always bad' worldview doesn't stack up when they're actually a force for good in Europe empowering smaller, less powerful Eastern European countries' ability to stand up against revanchist, fascist Russia.
I would just like to put on record on this post that I criticise Russia. They are a Roque state. Their leader is a dictator, a thug and a tyrant. Their actions are abhorrent.
I am not mentioning any other country here only Russia.
I hope this satisfies Thomasmullan who would like all criticisms separated out into individual posts for some reason.
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 10, 2024, 04:48:28 PMQuote from: Itchy on January 10, 2024, 04:29:22 PMWhat Itchy actually said
"USA and Russia are mirror images of each other"
"They are both selfish, self-serving tyrants and are ruthless"
Do you want me to put each statement in separate posts or something?
Russia is bad
America is bad
Russia is no better than America
America is no better than Russia
Putin is a Tyrant
Biden is a Tyrant
How else would you like me to spell it out for you??
You've actually just proven my point. Have you ever criticised anything Russia has done in a post without referencing the US?
Oh wait, you condemn all violence. Got it.
I don't condemn all violence. I think Hamas should fire away for example.
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 10, 2024, 04:52:49 PMQuote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 04:32:21 PMIs that not the same thing as Israel making out that Oct 7 happened in isolation and there is no context or history. You are setting the perimeter of what can be discussed.
No, discuss anything you like.
I'm simply stating the the 'US always bad' worldview doesn't stack up when they're actually a force for good in Europe empowering smaller, less powerful Eastern European countries' ability to stand up against revanchist, fascist Russia.
The 'Nazis always bad' worldview doesnt stack up when they were actually a force for good in Europe for empowering Aryans. Context is important I think.
Quote from: Itchy on January 10, 2024, 05:01:06 PMI would just like to put on record on this post that I criticise Russia. They are a Roque state. Their leader is a dictator, a thug and a tyrant. Their actions are abhorrent.
I am not mentioning any other country here only Russia.
I hope this satisfies Thomasmullan who would like all criticisms separated out into individual posts for some reason.
Ok. Well said.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 05:08:55 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 10, 2024, 04:52:49 PMQuote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 04:32:21 PMIs that not the same thing as Israel making out that Oct 7 happened in isolation and there is no context or history. You are setting the perimeter of what can be discussed.
No, discuss anything you like.
I'm simply stating the the 'US always bad' worldview doesn't stack up when they're actually a force for good in Europe empowering smaller, less powerful Eastern European countries' ability to stand up against revanchist, fascist Russia.
The 'Nazis always bad' worldview doesnt stack up when they were actually a force for good in Europe for empowering Aryans. Context is important I think.
Probably the most ridiculous analogy I've ever read. Desperate stuff.
Perhaps you have some experience of living under Soviet occupation PHP? You think the Lithuanians and the Latvians have it all wrong? Hmm?
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 10, 2024, 05:19:58 PMQuote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 05:08:55 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 10, 2024, 04:52:49 PMQuote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 04:32:21 PMIs that not the same thing as Israel making out that Oct 7 happened in isolation and there is no context or history. You are setting the perimeter of what can be discussed.
No, discuss anything you like.
I'm simply stating the the 'US always bad' worldview doesn't stack up when they're actually a force for good in Europe empowering smaller, less powerful Eastern European countries' ability to stand up against revanchist, fascist Russia.
The 'Nazis always bad' worldview doesnt stack up when they were actually a force for good in Europe for empowering Aryans. Context is important I think.
Probably the most ridiculous analogy I've ever read. Desperate stuff.
Perhaps you have some experience of living under Soviet occupation PHP? You think the Lithuanians and the Latvians have it all wrong? Hmm?
what's wrong with the analogy, I focused one aspect ignoring all others similar to you?
I have a feeling you got a ban from here not so long ago. I've offered no opinion on Lithuanians or Latvians or their opinions so no clue why you have decide to introduce that into our exchange.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 05:42:06 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 10, 2024, 05:19:58 PMQuote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 05:08:55 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 10, 2024, 04:52:49 PMQuote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 04:32:21 PMIs that not the same thing as Israel making out that Oct 7 happened in isolation and there is no context or history. You are setting the perimeter of what can be discussed.
No, discuss anything you like.
I'm simply stating the the 'US always bad' worldview doesn't stack up when they're actually a force for good in Europe empowering smaller, less powerful Eastern European countries' ability to stand up against revanchist, fascist Russia.
The 'Nazis always bad' worldview doesnt stack up when they were actually a force for good in Europe for empowering Aryans. Context is important I think.
Probably the most ridiculous analogy I've ever read. Desperate stuff.
Perhaps you have some experience of living under Soviet occupation PHP? You think the Lithuanians and the Latvians have it all wrong? Hmm?
what's wrong with the analogy, I focused one aspect ignoring all others similar to you?
I have a feeling you got a ban from here not so long ago. I've offered no opinion on Lithuanians or Latvians or their opinions so no clue why you have decide to introduce that into our exchange.
It's entirely relevant given that you pulled your ridiculous Nazi analogy out of the hat when I mentioned the US/NATO defense of Eastern Europe (as requested by the sovereign governments of those countries) so it wasn't introduced into the exchange.
The US defending Lithuania is similar to Nazi Germany defending imaginary 'Aryans' in your bizarre analogy.
Maybe you'd rather just leave them to their fate with the Russians (again)?
P.s. do you think the US did a good thing helping to broker the GFA in Ireland?
my analogy was to show you cherry picking something good doesn't give a full picture. Nothing more and nothing less, I even added that context is important to be clearer....
I am also not aware of any poster saying 'US always bad' but you are raging against these non existent posters with your rants, throwing out random questions...
My preference is for peace, and open dialogue and that conflict is avoided. I believe this would be possible if the powerful countries didn't put their self interests ahead of others.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 06:27:29 PMmy analogy was to show you cherry picking something good doesn't give a full picture. Nothing more and nothing less, I even added that context is important to be clearer....
I am also not aware of any poster saying 'US always bad' but you are raging against these non existent posters with your rants, throwing out random questions...
My preference is for peace, and open dialogue and that conflict is avoided. I believe this would be possible if the powerful countries didn't put their self interests ahead of others.
Eh no, all your daft analogy illustrates was that you think because a country does some bad in one region, it's impossible that it's doing some good in another.
Beautiful sentiments regarding peaceful aspirations, do you think they'd stop Russian tanks?
p.s. I just had a wee flick through your posts back to Feb 24th 2022 out of curiosity. It's exactly what I'd expect, ranting about Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq and the West, on the day Russia invaded Ukraine. Wonder what else I'll find there.
ive over 1000 posts since 2007 on here... knock yourself out.
my analogy just showed taking a narrow view is idiotic, for the 3rd time, nothing else you are reading into it.
my belief is what Russia is doing has been done by the US numerous times and I would prefer everyone is held to the same standards. I believe Russia believes it can do as it wants as the US was doing what it wanted for years without any repercussions. to be clear this comment does not mean 'US always bad'
If done correctly diplomacy can stop Russia tanks
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 07:07:06 PMive over 1000 posts since 2007 on here... knock yourself out.
my analogy just showed taking a narrow view is idiotic, for the 3rd time, nothing else you are reading into it.
my belief is what Russia is doing has been done by the US numerous times and I would prefer everyone is held to the same standards. I believe Russia believes it can do as it wants as the US was doing what it wanted for years without any repercussions. to be clear this comment does not mean 'US always bad'
If done correctly diplomacy can stop Russia tanks
I think you'll find that Russia needs no lessons from the US or anyone else when it comes to invasion, conquest and utter cruelty. Just a cursory glance at their history confirms this. They've been at it for centuries.
By diplomacy that stops Russian tanks, do you mean the diplomacy that produced the Budapest Memorandum in 1994 in which Russia is a signatory and a guarantor of Ukrainian sovereignty?
(The US not fulfilling their obligations to Ukraine here either in my opinion).
Or the diplomacy that produced the Russian-Ukrainian friendship treaty 1997?
Or the diplomacy that produced the peace agreement between Russia and Ichkeria? (The mysterious apartment bombings with those infamous bags of sugar used as an excuse to utterly destroy Ichkeria).
Agreements with Russia aren't worth the paper they're written on. And it's amazing you (and Wallace and Daly et al) think you know better than the countries that have suffered under them. They know Russian 'diplomacy' and that's why they want NATO boots on their soil.
I didn't say they needed lessons.
what is the answer if peace and diplomacy isn't? And I didn't suggest or say diplomacy is easy.
how are you enjoying reading my old posts...
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 07:53:33 PMI didn't say they needed lessons.
what is the answer if peace and diplomacy isn't? And I didn't suggest or say diplomacy is easy.
how are you enjoying reading my old posts...
No you didn't but the jist of your post was that they were copying the US, as if they hadn't already been at it for centuries. Oh look it's that recurring theme, it's the fault of the US again. Your worldview is seriously blinkered.
Diplomacy with Russia doesn't work, they see it as weakness to exploit. Make an agreement, exploit it, break it. They never respected Ukraine's right to be a free sovereign nation with its own destiny. They only understand military force. Ukraine needs to be given what it needs to force them out of their territory.
you have a habit of reading stuff into posts that isn't written and then making ill informed judgements.
I think a look in the mirror might show you someone with a blinkered view, some who takes any reference to the US foreign policy as support for Russia.
You have to laugh, the US is annoyed that Russia is using North Korean bombs against Ukraine but seems to have no issue with Israel using American made bombs and white Phosphor munitions (illegal to use in densely populated areas) against civilians in a genocide in Gaza. American hypocrisy knows no ends.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 08:32:37 PMyou have a habit of reading stuff into posts that isn't written and then making ill informed judgements.
I think a look in the mirror might show you someone with a blinkered view, some who takes any reference to the US foreign policy as support for Russia.
I'll make it clear for you. You said:
"I believe Russia believes it can do as it wants as the US was doing what it wanted for years without any repercussions."
I then said:
"I think you'll find that Russia needs no lessons from the US or anyone else when it comes to invasion, conquest and utter cruelty."
My response to what you said is accurate and appropriate. You can twist all you like by saying you didn't use the word 'lesson'. It's obvious you have the misguided belief that Russia saw US bad behaviour and thought we'll have a bit of that action. Whereas in the real world, they've already been at it. For centuries. Just ask Ukrainians, Syrians, Georgians, Moldovans, Ichkerians, Afghans, Lithuanians, Latvians, Poles, Romanians, Estonians, Finns, Crimean Tatars...and on and on. How far back do you want to go?
Do these people even exist to you? How did you come to 'believe' that this is a recent phenomenon using the US as a role model?
Quote from: Itchy on January 11, 2024, 08:13:43 AMYou have to laugh, the US is annoyed that Russia is using North Korean bombs against Ukraine but seems to have no issue with Israel using American made bombs and white Phosphor munitions (illegal to use in densely populated areas) against civilians in a genocide in Gaza. American hypocrisy knows no ends.
Are you outraged that the Israelis are using American made bombs Itchy?
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 09:35:07 AMQuote from: Itchy on January 11, 2024, 08:13:43 AMYou have to laugh, the US is annoyed that Russia is using North Korean bombs against Ukraine but seems to have no issue with Israel using American made bombs and white Phosphor munitions (illegal to use in densely populated areas) against civilians in a genocide in Gaza. American hypocrisy knows no ends.
Are you outraged that the Israelis are using American made bombs Itchy?
What are you on abut now? I was pointing out the hypocrisy of America, its quite obvious - its in the last sentence. I am wondering should I just start asking you random questions, you seem to get off on that.
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 09:33:42 AMQuote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 10, 2024, 08:32:37 PMyou have a habit of reading stuff into posts that isn't written and then making ill informed judgements.
I think a look in the mirror might show you someone with a blinkered view, some who takes any reference to the US foreign policy as support for Russia.
I'll make it clear for you. You said:
"I believe Russia believes it can do as it wants as the US was doing what it wanted for years without any repercussions."
I then said:
"I think you'll find that Russia needs no lessons from the US or anyone else when it comes to invasion, conquest and utter cruelty."
My response to what you said is accurate and appropriate. You can twist all you like by saying you didn't use the word 'lesson'. It's obvious you have the misguided belief that Russia saw US bad behaviour and thought we'll have a bit of that action. Whereas in the real world, they've already been at it. For centuries. Just ask Ukrainians, Syrians, Georgians, Moldovans, Ichkerians, Afghans, Lithuanians, Latvians, Poles, Romanians, Estonians, Finns, Crimean Tatars...and on and on. How far back do you want to go?
Do these people even exist to you? How did you come to 'believe' that this is a recent phenomenon using the US as a role model?
you have just gone and done it again, reading stuff into posts that isn't written and then making ill informed judgements. After been told you were doing it you have doubled down.
QuoteDo these people even exist?
what planet are you on? where have I claimed its a recent phenomenon? I never used the words 'role model'.
I never said the only reason or the sole reason or the main reason or they used the 'role model'. What I said doesn't support Russian actions or the actions the of the US.
"I believe Russia believes it can do as it wants .....as the US was doing what it wanted for years without any repercussions."
The use of the word 'as' in your sentence means that the former depends on that latter.
Whereas in the real world, Russia has always believed it can do as it wants and has always done what it wants.
You're the one doubling down in denial of what you wrote.
Quote from: Itchy on January 11, 2024, 10:27:23 AMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 09:35:07 AMQuote from: Itchy on January 11, 2024, 08:13:43 AMYou have to laugh, the US is annoyed that Russia is using North Korean bombs against Ukraine but seems to have no issue with Israel using American made bombs and white Phosphor munitions (illegal to use in densely populated areas) against civilians in a genocide in Gaza. American hypocrisy knows no ends.
Are you outraged that the Israelis are using American made bombs Itchy?
What are you on abut now? I was pointing out the hypocrisy of America, its quite obvious - its in the last sentence. I am wondering should I just start asking you random questions, you seem to get off on that.
Ask me anything you like.
It's just a pity that NK and Iran supplying weapons to Russia to murder Ukrainians and try to freeze them to death only crops up to use as a prop to highlight American hypocrisy.
The Americans are hypocrites by the way. No argument from me on that.
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 10:45:34 AM"I believe Russia believes it can do as it wants .....as the US was doing what it wanted for years without any repercussions."
The use of the word 'as' in your sentence means that the former depends on that latter.
Whereas in the real world, Russia has always believed it can do as it wants and has always done what it wants.
You're the one doubling down in denial of what you wrote.
I know what I wrote and the intend of writing it because I wrote It, despite telling you numerous times you have misinterpreted it you continue to tell me what I meant. You seem to just want an argument.
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 10:48:34 AMQuote from: Itchy on January 11, 2024, 10:27:23 AMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 09:35:07 AMQuote from: Itchy on January 11, 2024, 08:13:43 AMYou have to laugh, the US is annoyed that Russia is using North Korean bombs against Ukraine but seems to have no issue with Israel using American made bombs and white Phosphor munitions (illegal to use in densely populated areas) against civilians in a genocide in Gaza. American hypocrisy knows no ends.
Are you outraged that the Israelis are using American made bombs Itchy?
What are you on abut now? I was pointing out the hypocrisy of America, its quite obvious - its in the last sentence. I am wondering should I just start asking you random questions, you seem to get off on that.
Ask me anything you like.
It's just a pity that NK and Iran supplying weapons to Russia to murder Ukrainians and try to freeze them to death only crops up to use as a prop to highlight American hypocrisy.
The Americans are hypocrites by the way. No argument from me on that.
It crops up today because it is in the papers today. "No argument from me" except there is always an argument from you.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 11, 2024, 11:19:40 AMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 10:45:34 AM"I believe Russia believes it can do as it wants .....as the US was doing what it wanted for years without any repercussions."
The use of the word 'as' in your sentence means that the former depends on that latter.
Whereas in the real world, Russia has always believed it can do as it wants and has always done what it wants.
You're the one doubling down in denial of what you wrote.
I know what I wrote and the intend of writing it because I wrote It, despite telling you numerous times you have misinterpreted it you continue to tell me what I meant. You seem to just want an argument.
It's not my fault you are unable to articulate correctly what you mean.
I've already given a valid reason for my interpretation of what you meant, based on what you wrote.
Quote from: Itchy on January 11, 2024, 11:45:47 AMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 10:48:34 AMQuote from: Itchy on January 11, 2024, 10:27:23 AMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 09:35:07 AMQuote from: Itchy on January 11, 2024, 08:13:43 AMYou have to laugh, the US is annoyed that Russia is using North Korean bombs against Ukraine but seems to have no issue with Israel using American made bombs and white Phosphor munitions (illegal to use in densely populated areas) against civilians in a genocide in Gaza. American hypocrisy knows no ends.
Are you outraged that the Israelis are using American made bombs Itchy?
What are you on abut now? I was pointing out the hypocrisy of America, its quite obvious - its in the last sentence. I am wondering should I just start asking you random questions, you seem to get off on that.
Ask me anything you like.
It's just a pity that NK and Iran supplying weapons to Russia to murder Ukrainians and try to freeze them to death only crops up to use as a prop to highlight American hypocrisy.
The Americans are hypocrites by the way. No argument from me on that.
It crops up today because it is in the papers today. "No argument from me" except there is always an argument from you.
No, not on that and I hope SA are successful today in the ICC. (They won't be).
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 12:31:35 PMQuote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 11, 2024, 11:19:40 AMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 10:45:34 AM"I believe Russia believes it can do as it wants .....as the US was doing what it wanted for years without any repercussions."
The use of the word 'as' in your sentence means that the former depends on that latter.
Whereas in the real world, Russia has always believed it can do as it wants and has always done what it wants.
You're the one doubling down in denial of what you wrote.
I know what I wrote and the intend of writing it because I wrote It, despite telling you numerous times you have misinterpreted it you continue to tell me what I meant. You seem to just want an argument.
It's not my fault you are unable to articulate correctly what you mean.
I've already given a valid reason for my interpretation of what you meant, based on what you wrote.
Instead on consistently misinterpreting what I've said and then blaming my articulation and further then defending your misinterpreting by explaining yourself. Could you not ask me to clarify?
Instead you choose to ignore me and continued on rants. I could have chosen to explain my comment but I find your style of posting abhorrent.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 11, 2024, 01:36:45 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 12:31:35 PMQuote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 11, 2024, 11:19:40 AMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 10:45:34 AM"I believe Russia believes it can do as it wants .....as the US was doing what it wanted for years without any repercussions."
The use of the word 'as' in your sentence means that the former depends on that latter.
Whereas in the real world, Russia has always believed it can do as it wants and has always done what it wants.
You're the one doubling down in denial of what you wrote.
I know what I wrote and the intend of writing it because I wrote It, despite telling you numerous times you have misinterpreted it you continue to tell me what I meant. You seem to just want an argument.
It's not my fault you are unable to articulate correctly what you mean.
I've already given a valid reason for my interpretation of what you meant, based on what you wrote.
Instead on consistently misinterpreting what I've said and then blaming my articulation and further then defending your misinterpreting by explaining yourself. Could you not ask me to clarify?
Instead you choose to ignore me and continued on rants. I could have chosen to explain my comment but I find your style of posting abhorrent.
What you call 'clarify' is little more than attempting to backtrack and weasel out of what you said, when you were called out for it.
It's also telling that anyone who disagrees with you is apparently on a 'rant'.
I also find your style of debate abhorrent.
there is no debate here, its just you ranting at me (and others) and telling me that you understand something i wrote better than me...
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 11, 2024, 02:04:49 PMthere is no debate here, its just you ranting at me (and others) and telling me that you understand something i wrote better than me...
Expressing an alternative opinion to PHP, is apparently going on a 'rant'. You really don't take opinions that disagree with you very well do you.
Quote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 02:16:42 PMQuote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 11, 2024, 02:04:49 PMthere is no debate here, its just you ranting at me (and others) and telling me that you understand something i wrote better than me...
Expressing an alternative opinion to PHP, is apparently going on a 'rant'. You really don't take opinions that disagree with you very well do you.
What alternative opinions have i disagreed with? I have disagreed with the misrepresentation of what i said repeatedly by you, but that you ignore. That is all i have done.
All you have done is misinterpret my opinion and ranted. for example asking me if i think poles, tatars etc. exist!!!!
I am more sure you are the poster banned from here a few weeks back and I think I'll take the mods advice then and ignore.
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 11, 2024, 03:04:31 PMQuote from: ThomasMullan on January 11, 2024, 02:16:42 PMQuote from: PadraicHenryPearse on January 11, 2024, 02:04:49 PMthere is no debate here, its just you ranting at me (and others) and telling me that you understand something i wrote better than me...
Expressing an alternative opinion to PHP, is apparently going on a 'rant'. You really don't take opinions that disagree with you very well do you.
What alternative opinions have i disagreed with? I have disagree with misrepresentation of what i said repeatedly but that is ignored. That is all i have done.
All you have done is misinterpret my opinion and ranted. for example asking me if i think poles, tatars etc. exist!!!!
I am more sure you are the poster banned from here a few weeks back and I think I'll take the mods advice then and ignore.
No one is forcing you to talk to me.
Do you agree that the fears those countries have about Russia are real and genuine?