http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/dails-halloween-horror-show-upstaged-by-lord-of-the-rings-2397797.html
Now look at the mess we're in, and look at the mess this country is in. Next year the queen is talking about coming to Ireland for a state visit, and maybe we should say to the queen when she comes, 'you know, we have our own independence now, we'll hand you back the country and we'll apologise for the mess that we're after making of it'. Because at least when they were running the country they didn't put it into the mess and the hock that we're in now.
I agree with him, send over Wills and Harry to sort this mess out.
Actually never mind the Queen or giving us back to Britain, but we could get an international dreamteam to govern us. Anything would be better than what we have.
For starters how about:
Taoiseach: David Ike
Tainiste: Jessica Rabbit
Minister of Finance: George Dubya Bush
Minister of Health: Gazza
Quote from: muppet on October 28, 2010, 09:04:50 PM
Actually never mind the Queen or giving us back to Britain, but we could get an international dreamteam to govern us. Anything would be better than what we have.
For starters how about:
Taoiseach: David Ike
Tainiste: Jessica Rabbit
Minister of Finance: George Dubya Bush
Minister of Health: Gazza
were they not in the running for the Mayo managers job too.
Quote from: muppet on October 28, 2010, 09:04:50 PM
Actually never mind the Queen or giving us back to Britain, but we could get an international dreamteam to govern us. Anything would be better than what we have.
For starters how about:
Taoiseach: David Ike
Tainiste: Jessica Rabbit
Minister of Finance: George Dubya Bush
Minister of Health: Gazza
No Roy Keane?
At least he would know when to walk when the pressure got too much.
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 28, 2010, 09:32:13 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 28, 2010, 09:04:50 PM
Actually never mind the Queen or giving us back to Britain, but we could get an international dreamteam to govern us. Anything would be better than what we have.
For starters how about:
Taoiseach: David Ike
Tainiste: Jessica Rabbit
Minister of Finance: George Dubya Bush
Minister of Health: Gazza
No Roy Keane?
At least he would know when to walk when the pressure got too much.
2010 crisis and you want to go back to 2002. Kinda like the Civil war politics that we are stuck with.
Quote from: muppet on October 28, 2010, 09:35:23 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 28, 2010, 09:32:13 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 28, 2010, 09:04:50 PM
Actually never mind the Queen or giving us back to Britain, but we could get an international dreamteam to govern us. Anything would be better than what we have.
For starters how about:
Taoiseach: David Ike
Tainiste: Jessica Rabbit
Minister of Finance: George Dubya Bush
Minister of Health: Gazza
No Roy Keane?
At least he would know when to walk when the pressure got too much.
2010 crisis and you want to go back to 2002. Kinda like the Civil war politics that we are stuck with.
Everyone had more money in 2002 though.
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 28, 2010, 09:36:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 28, 2010, 09:35:23 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 28, 2010, 09:32:13 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 28, 2010, 09:04:50 PM
Actually never mind the Queen or giving us back to Britain, but we could get an international dreamteam to govern us. Anything would be better than what we have.
For starters how about:
Taoiseach: David Ike
Tainiste: Jessica Rabbit
Minister of Finance: George Dubya Bush
Minister of Health: Gazza
No Roy Keane?
At least he would know when to walk when the pressure got too much.
2010 crisis and you want to go back to 2002. Kinda like the Civil war politics that we are stuck with.
Everyone had more money in 2002 though.
By the time this lot are finished everyone in the Civil War will have had more money.
QuoteEveryone had more money in 2002 though.
We did, I even took me self off to Japan only to meet that Langer on the way home, tis all gone down hill since I tell you. At least I have completely gone off soccer since so thats good.
yeah the famine had nothing on this crisis
some people have had to stop taking a second foreign holiday
What a p***k.
He epitomises the reason why I can not bring myself to vote Fine Gael. Of all the brainless comparisons to make he picked the most brainless one. Indeed things were much better under british rule. Ring always strikes me as someone who opens his gob before his brain starts working. Where is mayogodhelpus to put up a defence for him?
(ps - I hate people who refer to the british monarch as the queen, as if there is no other queen in the world but the british one.)
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 28, 2010, 10:06:10 PM
He epitomises the reason why I can not bring myself to vote Fine Gael. Of all the brainless comparisons to make he picked the most brainless one.
Fine Gael have a habit of appearing completely out of touch with the Irish psyche on this issue, this comment reminds of be when Bruton was Taoiseach and he said that Prince Charles visiting wsa the best day of his life.
Now, I'm not a Republican by any stretch of the imagination but even I know that comments like this offend most Irish people on a certain level. We are, in the main, proud of our history of anti British agitaion (hypocritically so when it's compared to our distaste for the modern campaign waged by the Provos) but that's the way most Irish people are 'wired' for want of a better phrase
Gay Byrne made a similar comment back in the early 80s on The Late Late Show.
Said the country was "banjaxed" and that we should hand it back to the UK.
Michael Ring is two ends of a bollox so if he told me tomorrow was Friday I'd run off and check. A classic example of people electing the politican that they deserve.
Quote from: stephenite on October 28, 2010, 10:47:19 PM
We are, in the main, proud of our history of anti British agitaion (hypocritically so when it's compared to our distaste for the modern campaign waged by the Provos) but that's the way most Irish people are 'wired' for want of a better phrase
I disagree. I see no evidence to suggest that Ireland has an anti British agitation history. I think people are proud of selected elements of Irish history and just choose to ignore the shamefull parts. Kind of like CJH did the Country some service.
Quote from: Zapatista on October 28, 2010, 11:19:00 PM
Quote from: stephenite on October 28, 2010, 10:47:19 PM
We are, in the main, proud of our history of anti British agitaion (hypocritically so when it's compared to our distaste for the modern campaign waged by the Provos) but that's the way most Irish people are 'wired' for want of a better phrase
I disagree. I see no evidence to suggest that Ireland has an anti British agitation history. I think people are proud of selected elements of Irish history and just choose to ignore the shamefull parts. Kind of like CJH did the Country some service.
Which selected elements then?
Just re-reading my post it's possibly badly worded. By anti British agitation history I don't mean they were against those who agitated against the British but the opposite.
From Red Hugh O'Neill to Wolfe Tone and the 1798 Rebellion, from Daniel O'Connell to Parnell and all those in between and after - Irish people are proud of them, in the main. Most of it is based on the History curriculum in the Irish education system in fairness and not as a result of any in depth understading of the History itself
Quote from: stephenite on October 28, 2010, 11:40:18 PM
Which selected elements then?
Just re-reading my post it's possibly badly worded. By anti British agitation history I don't mean they were against those who agitated against the British but the opposite.
From Red Hugh O'Neill to Wolfe Tone and the 1798 Rebellion, from Daniel O'Connell to Parnell and all those in between and after - Irish people are proud of them, in the main. Most of it is based on the History curriculum in the Irish education system in fairness and not as a result of any in depth understading of the History itself
Those are selected elements. Each one of those came with little mentioned but powerfull Irish people who thwarted them in Britians favour. The Irish don't mention this history. Ireland has been decidedly more pro Britian than anti Britian throughout it's history including today.
It depresses me that this f**king chimp is actually taking part in what passes for the debate on our economic future.
The indepth of knowledge of our history by the general population notwithstanding, the original point still stands. Irish people perceive themselves and their history in a certain way and the comments from Fine Gael are completley at odds with this. The reaction to Brutons comments at the time made a lot of people very uncomfortable.
11,412 folk thought Ring was worth voting for in 2007.
http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172 (http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172)
The law of averages would say that a few Gaaboarders from the Mayo area voted fur Ring.
Own up!
My Dad was right, fcking telling me all those yrs that Fine Gael want british rule back.
He always tells me the story during the troubles that Fine Gael try to get some ruling passed through the Dail that the ruc and british come down south to arrest anyone they thought was IRA.
What a bunch of idiots, but worse evil vindicitve idiots.
Quote from: Orior on October 29, 2010, 12:55:56 AM
11,412 folk thought Ring was worth voting for in 2007.
http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172 (http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172)
The law of averages would say that a few Gaaboarders from the Mayo area voted fur Ring.
Own up!
Most certainly wasn't me - out of the country at that time and didn't vote.
You can be sure Mayogodhelpus was one of them. :o
Quote from: Orior on October 29, 2010, 12:55:56 AM
11,412 folk thought Ring was worth voting for in 2007.
http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172 (http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172)
The law of averages would say that a few Gaaboarders from the Mayo area voted fur Ring.
Own up!
Jaysus some crowd of candidates in that :D
Quote from: Orior on October 29, 2010, 12:55:56 AM
11,412 folk thought Ring was worth voting for in 2007.
http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172 (http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172)
The law of averages would say that a few Gaaboarders from the Mayo area voted fur Ring.
Own up!
I wouldn't waste the lead in a pencil giving Ring a mark....
FFS lads this is just Ring having a go at the way have run our economy and the misrule of our country, it is tongue in cheek ffs.
Fine Gael don't want the Brits back, trust me as die hard Fine Gaeler nothing would disgust me more than having them back.
I gave Micheal Ring my 4'th vote and will do the same again.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on October 29, 2010, 01:19:36 AM
My Dad was right, fcking telling me all those yrs that Fine Gael want british rule back.
He always tells me the story during the troubles that Fine Gael try to get some ruling passed through the Dail that the ruc and british come down south to arrest anyone they thought was IRA.
What a bunch of idiots, but worse evil vindicitve idiots.
Sligonian your dad is WRONG.
Quote from: stephenite on October 29, 2010, 01:29:19 AM
Quote from: Orior on October 29, 2010, 12:55:56 AM
11,412 folk thought Ring was worth voting for in 2007.
http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172 (http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172)
The law of averages would say that a few Gaaboarders from the Mayo area voted fur Ring.
Own up!
Most certainly wasn't me - out of the country at that time and didn't vote.
You can be sure Mayogodhelpus was one of them. :o
YES I WAS AND I WILL AGAIN (Number 4 that was).
His comments where obviously tongue in cheek. The amount of Fianna Failures, Labours and even a Sinn Fein mate of mine have joked about bringing the Brits back, no one actually wants it but we are so frustrated by this horshite government it has slipped many a lip.
I want to vote the Fianna Fail traitors out at all costs.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 02:44:47 AM
Quote from: stephenite on October 29, 2010, 01:29:19 AM
Quote from: Orior on October 29, 2010, 12:55:56 AM
11,412 folk thought Ring was worth voting for in 2007.
http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172 (http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=172)
The law of averages would say that a few Gaaboarders from the Mayo area voted fur Ring.
Own up!
Most certainly wasn't me - out of the country at that time and didn't vote.
You can be sure Mayogodhelpus was one of them. :o
YES I WAS AND I WILL AGAIN (Number 4 that was).
His comments where obviously tongue in cheek. The amount of Fianna Failures, Labours and even a Sinn Fein mate of mine have joked about bringing the Brits back, no one actually wants it but we are so frustrated by this horshite government it has slipped many a lip.
I want to vote the Fianna Fail traitors out at all costs.
It may have passed a joke if he had stopped with handing back to the british, but going on to say that they wouldn't leave the country in as bad a state is absolutley idiotic even by his standards (which are pretty high on the idiotometer).
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 02:44:47 AM
YES I WAS AND I WILL AGAIN (Number 4 that was).
His comments where obviously tongue in cheek. The amount of Fianna Failures, Labours and even a Sinn Fein mate of mine have joked about bringing the Brits back, no one actually wants it but we are so frustrated by this horshite government it has slipped many a lip.
I want to vote the Fianna Fail traitors out at all costs.
FG's very own Katie Price, Leo Varadkar, said the Bankers have done more harm to the economy than the IRA. Fair enough, I know Leo drops the IRA and the X Factor and other popular brands into his rants now and then but considering FGs stance on the IRA do you think that in Government they will be as srong in persuing these bankers as they have been the IRA in the past?
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 02:43:12 AM
FFS lads this is just Ring having a go at the way have run our economy and the misrule of our country, it is tongue in cheek ffs.
Fine Gael don't want the Brits back, trust me as die hard Fine Gaeler nothing would disgust me more than having them back.
I gave Micheal Ring my 4'th vote and will do the same again.
Your opinion on what he said isn't worth Jack. If he said the exact opposite, that the Queen should apologise and flog Sandringham so she can personally offer reparations for 800 years of oppression of the Irish people by the Plantaganets and their descendants, you'd defend that too.
Quote from: Zapatista on October 29, 2010, 08:25:03 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 02:44:47 AM
YES I WAS AND I WILL AGAIN (Number 4 that was).
His comments where obviously tongue in cheek. The amount of Fianna Failures, Labours and even a Sinn Fein mate of mine have joked about bringing the Brits back, no one actually wants it but we are so frustrated by this horshite government it has slipped many a lip.
I want to vote the Fianna Fail traitors out at all costs.
FG's very own Katie Price, Leo Varadkar, said the Bankers have done more harm to the economy than the IRA. Fair enough, I know Leo drops the IRA and the X Factor and other popular brands into his rants now and then but considering FGs stance on the IRA do you think that in Government they will be as srong in persuing these bankers as they have been the IRA in the past?
Did he really say that - good god. The west brit is really coming out in them of late. Just reaffirms they are not an alternative to FF, just another shade of the same shite. Labour might be the best of the 3 large parties (and i'm not giving them a ringing endorsement by any means). FF need to be put out but not at the cost of putting their FG cousins there instead of them.
So what Mr Ring-piece is actually saying that he wouldn't even trust his own party to run the country any better either. Basically Irish people are incapable of ruling themselves according to him.
Well, while I regretfully admit that I would sooner eat my ballot card than vote for any of the current main parties but there seems to be f**k all alternatives that are any use.
I might have to just run the country myself someday.
Both him and lizzy can go f**k themselves by the way.
Lads, don't be taking Michael Ring seriously, very few in Mayo do.
He works hard at the local level constituency stuff - looking for medical cards, giving out about the state of the roads. And in fairness to him, he does good work as a voice for the elderly and carers etc.
But his input into FG policy on economic or sovereignty matters would be 0.00000% So what he said is just his usual bluster.
Please ignore.
Quote from: Tubberman on October 29, 2010, 12:27:44 PM
Lads, don't be taking Michael Ring seriously, very few in Mayo do.
He works hard at the local level constituency stuff - looking for medical cards, giving out about the state of the roads. And in fairness to him, he does good work as a voice for the elderly and carers etc.
But his input into FG policy on economic or sovereignty matters would be 0.00000% So what he said is just his usual bluster. Please ignore.
We should be worried if someone with no notion of National politics will be in the parlimentary party of the Governing party after the next election.
Quote from: Zapatista on October 29, 2010, 12:30:35 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on October 29, 2010, 12:27:44 PM
Lads, don't be taking Michael Ring seriously, very few in Mayo do.
He works hard at the local level constituency stuff - looking for medical cards, giving out about the state of the roads. And in fairness to him, he does good work as a voice for the elderly and carers etc.
But his input into FG policy on economic or sovereignty matters would be 0.00000% So what he said is just his usual bluster. Please ignore.
We should be worried if someone with no notion of National politics will be in the parlimentary party of the Governing party after the next election.
Indeed, he was one of the 1st boys sent out to defend Enda to the media when the heave came. He'll look for and will get a ministerial portfolio as a reward most likely.
Quote from: deiseach on October 29, 2010, 08:38:57 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 02:43:12 AM
FFS lads this is just Ring having a go at the way have run our economy and the misrule of our country, it is tongue in cheek ffs.
Fine Gael don't want the Brits back, trust me as die hard Fine Gaeler nothing would disgust me more than having them back.
I gave Micheal Ring my 4'th vote and will do the same again.
Your opinion on what he said isn't worth Jack. If he said the exact opposite, that the Queen should apologise and flog Sandringham so she can personally offer reparations for 800 years of oppression of the Irish people by the Plantaganets and their descendants, you'd defend that too.
Why is my opinion not worth Jack and yours is, give me a break.
Your second line is very funny coming from a Waterford man, I thought all you people down there where Normans anyways.
QuoteQuote from: Zapatista on Today at 12:30:35 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on Today at 12:27:44 PM
Lads, don't be taking Michael Ring seriously, very few in Mayo do.
He works hard at the local level constituency stuff - looking for medical cards, giving out about the state of the roads. And in fairness to him, he does good work as a voice for the elderly and carers etc.
But his input into FG policy on economic or sovereignty matters would be 0.00000% So what he said is just his usual bluster. Please ignore.
We should be worried if someone with no notion of National politics will be in the parliamentary party of the Governing party after the next election.
Indeed, he was one of the 1st boys sent out to defend Enda to the media when the heave came. He'll look for and will get a ministerial portfolio as a reward most likely.
that's the crux there, you's can say ''ach ignore him he's harmless' but he'll end up in the cabinet making key economic decisions!!!
Tell's me all I want to know about Fine Gael, bunch of partionists 'I'm alright Jack's' who left us in the north to rot
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 01:13:06 PM
Why is my opinion not worth Jack and yours is, give me a break.
Your second line is very funny coming from a Waterford man, I thought all you people down there where Normans anyways.
'You' don't have an opinion, you have Michael Ring's opinion.
Isn't Ring the man that spends most of his time trying to attending every funeral in Mayo in order to get elected, no wonder the country is in a mess with this kind of representation in government.
Quote from: deiseach on October 29, 2010, 01:49:11 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 01:13:06 PM
Why is my opinion not worth Jack and yours is, give me a break.
Your second line is very funny coming from a Waterford man, I thought all you people down there where Normans anyways.
'You' don't have an opinion, you have Michael Ring's opinion.
Hey I disagree strongly with his comment, but Ring always comes across to me as a bit of a wind-up-merchant, thats why I don't take this comment seriously.
To be honest I can't believe this topic is getting people wound up here. But then again its the bash FG they all ****** rants again. I would be far more concerned with the 4 ex-FF & 1 ex-FG T.D.'s/Councillors up in Dublin who have been arrested by the Gardaí, surely that should be the thing that concerns us most.
A lad makes a tongue in cheek comment and everyone is shocked, 5 public representatives are being charged by the Gardaí surely if we had our priorities right that is what we should be angry about (if they prove to be guilty). I understand we cannot comment too much on that until its gone to court and we understand the facts.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 02:19:06 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 29, 2010, 01:49:11 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 01:13:06 PM
Why is my opinion not worth Jack and yours is, give me a break.
Your second line is very funny coming from a Waterford man, I thought all you people down there where Normans anyways.
'You' don't have an opinion, you have Michael Ring's opinion.
Hey I disagree strongly with his comment, but Ring always comes across to me as a bit of a wind-up-merchant, thats why I don't take this comment seriously.
To be honest I can't believe this topic is getting people wound up here. But then again its the bash FG they all ****** rants again. I would be far more concerned with the 4 ex-FF & 1 ex-FG T.D.'s/Councillors up in Dublin who have been arrested by the Gardaí, surely that should be the thing that concerns us most.
A lad makes a tongue in cheek comment and everyone is shocked, 5 public representatives are being charged by the Gardaí surely if we had our priorities right that is what we should be angry about (if they prove to be guilty). I understand we cannot comment too much on that until its gone to court and we understand the facts.
Sure why bother discuss corruption in Dublin if there is a tsunami in indonesia?? Common, that a bollix way of looking at things. People are rightly commenting on this cos Mr Ring made a tool of himself in the dail with a totally inapropriate comparison. Its that simple. And by the way, i personally wouldn't "bash" FG if their members stopped talking shite like this.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 02:19:06 PM
Hey I disagree strongly with his comment, but Ring always comes across to me as a bit of a wind-up-merchant, thats why I don't take this comment seriously.
For the record I thought he was just being a smart arse but the fact that it's prob form for FG has me doubting that especially when you hear the reality TV star leo varadkar spouting similar crap.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 29, 2010, 03:08:49 PM
Sure why bother discuss corruption in Dublin if there is a tsunami in indonesia??
:D
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 02:19:06 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 29, 2010, 01:49:11 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 01:13:06 PM
Why is my opinion not worth Jack and yours is, give me a break.
Your second line is very funny coming from a Waterford man, I thought all you people down there where Normans anyways.
'You' don't have an opinion, you have Michael Ring's opinion.
Hey I disagree strongly with his comment, but Ring always comes across to me as a bit of a wind-up-merchant, thats why I don't take this comment seriously.
To be honest I can't believe this topic is getting people wound up here. But then again its the bash FG they all ****** rants again. I would be far more concerned with the 4 ex-FF & 1 ex-FG T.D.'s/Councillors up in Dublin who have been arrested by the Gardaí, surely that should be the thing that concerns us most.
A lad makes a tongue in cheek comment and everyone is shocked, 5 public representatives are being charged by the Gardaí surely if we had our priorities right that is what we should be angry about (if they prove to be guilty). I understand we cannot comment too much on that until its gone to court and we understand the facts.
What winds me up are the idiots in this country who vote for the same political party year in year out. After the shite FF have landed us in they'll still get at least 25% of the votes in the next election, no wonder we're up to our necks...
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on October 29, 2010, 03:46:22 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 02:19:06 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 29, 2010, 01:49:11 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 01:13:06 PM
Why is my opinion not worth Jack and yours is, give me a break.
Your second line is very funny coming from a Waterford man, I thought all you people down there where Normans anyways.
'You' don't have an opinion, you have Michael Ring's opinion.
Hey I disagree strongly with his comment, but Ring always comes across to me as a bit of a wind-up-merchant, thats why I don't take this comment seriously.
To be honest I can't believe this topic is getting people wound up here. But then again its the bash FG they all ****** rants again. I would be far more concerned with the 4 ex-FF & 1 ex-FG T.D.'s/Councillors up in Dublin who have been arrested by the Gardaí, surely that should be the thing that concerns us most.
A lad makes a tongue in cheek comment and everyone is shocked, 5 public representatives are being charged by the Gardaí surely if we had our priorities right that is what we should be angry about (if they prove to be guilty). I understand we cannot comment too much on that until its gone to court and we understand the facts.
What winds me up are the idiots in this country who vote for the same political party year in year out. After the shite FF have landed us in they'll still get at least 25% of the votes in the next election, no wonder we're up to our necks...
I generally switch between Fine Gael and Labour in the various elections, I may vote Independent from time to time too. I would have gave the Greens a vote (when I can) in the past, but never again. I would not have given Sinn Fein a vote in the past but I am now open to given them a low down vote but unlikely to do it at the moment. I would never have given the P.D.'s a vote even if I could.
I will never ever vote for Fianna Fail because I believe they are the worst enemies our Republic ever had. I have to say the only certainty is that I will never vote Fianna Fail.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 29, 2010, 09:53:47 AM
FF need to be put out but not at the cost of putting their FG cousins there instead of them.
Only way to get FF out is to put FG in :-\
So who's replacing Freddie Mercury and where are they playing?
Quote from: Rossfan on October 29, 2010, 05:47:43 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 29, 2010, 09:53:47 AM
FF need to be put out but not at the cost of putting their FG cousins there instead of them.
Only way to get FF out is to put FG in :-\
Correct and then ideally something new would emerge which we could use as a stick to wave over FG if their performance wasn't up to it, rather than vote FF back in again. It would be great if in 4-5 years our Civil War politics was over and we had Government rather than Croneyism, but I'm not holding my breath.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2010, 02:19:06 PM
Hey I disagree strongly with his comment, but Ring always comes across to me as a bit of a wind-up-merchant, thats why I don't take this comment seriously.
To be honest I can't believe this topic is getting people wound up here.
Maybe he wasn't serious. But the humour or sarcasm isn't exactly coming across in the news reports: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11652926
Mayo lads
Will you please do all in your power to ensure this gobshite does not get re-elected. I don't giveashite if he's a great man for the medical cards or can sort out the light outside Mrs. Murphy's home. His remit is, at best, a county councillor, no more than that. The fact that he's now championing IndaKinny means that Inda has promised him something come Fine Gael's triumphant return to power.
Lads, talk about a Hobson's choice come the next election. They are all unelectable. Where's yon TV mast guy in Donegal gone. Can he not go national. Feck it, free Sky Sports for all. I'll vote for that.
I may run in Dun Laoghaire as an Independent. I'll be up agin Gilmore, Mary Hannifin, Barry Andrews, Richard Boyd Barrett, Some Fine Gael dinosaur, Chemical Cuffe and a token Shinner.
Could GAAboard try and run a candidate in every constituency for the craic?
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 29, 2010, 11:40:22 PM
Mayo lads
Will you please do all in your power to ensure this gobshite does not get re-elected. I don't giveashite if he's a great man for the medical cards or can sort out the light outside Mrs. Murphy's home. His remit is, at best, a county councillor, no more than that. The fact that he's now championing IndaKinny means that Inda has promised him something come Fine Gael's triumphant return to power.
Lads, talk about a Hobson's choice come the next election. They are all unelectable. Where's yon TV mast guy in Donegal gone. Can he not go national. Feck it, free Sky Sports for all. I'll vote for that.
I may run in Dun Laoghaire as an Independent. I'll be up agin Gilmore, Mary Hannifin, Barry Andrews, Richard Boyd Barrett, Some Fine Gael dinosaur, Chemical Cuffe and a token Shinner.
Could GAAboard try and run a candidate in every constituency for the craic?
Shamrock shore, I'm not endorsing or doing the opposite but Micheal Ring will come second in Mayo after Enda Kenny. The Mayo lads, FG, FF, or other will probably concur.
He will come second ( and will push Kenny close for first) and that is depressing!
To give an example of what Ring is like, w=i was going for planning permission a few years ago. I got turned down initially so sent correspondence to the local polititions ( on all sides). the day the planning came through ( after a lot of shite!) Michael Ring rings my parents house and tells them 'I'm delighted to tell you that i got your son his planning permission'. That day the planning came in the post, i found out after that everyone that posts an interest in the planning process gets the planning decision so he did send a letter recommending me but so did all the other polititions but he was the only one to claim the credit for it! And to think that some people would buy his bullshit!
This is not to say he is a bad man ( far from it) but SS said it best he does not belong in the Dail but at Co Co level, of course there is a M Ring in almost every constitunity!
Quote from: ludermor on November 01, 2010, 10:22:43 AM
He will come second ( and will push Kenny close for first) and that is depressing!
To give an example of what Ring is like, w=i was going for planning permission a few years ago. I got turned down initially so sent correspondence to the local polititions ( on all sides). the day the planning came through ( after a lot of shite!) Michael Ring rings my parents house and tells them 'I'm delighted to tell you that i got your son his planning permission'. That day the planning came in the post, i found out after that everyone that posts an interest in the planning process gets the planning decision so he did send a letter recommending me but so did all the other polititions but he was the only one to claim the credit for it! And to think that some people would buy his bullshit!
This is not to say he is a bad man ( far from it) but SS said it best he does not belong in the Dail but at Co Co level, of course there is a M Ring in almost every constitunity!
Did the letter go out automatically or did he/they actually look at the submission and possible objectors? I'd hate to think there was blind support for plannig by politicans :-X
Im sure they was very careful analysis of the planning case!
And then the automatic letter was sent.
QuoteThis is not to say he is a bad man ( far from it) but SS said it best he does not belong in the Dail but at Co Co level, of course there is a M Ring in almost every constitunity!
Local government is so dispossed of any power in this country that a councillor with any ambition has to run for the Dáil. So Ring's true vocation should be at Co. Co. level, but if that was his position he would not be able to achieve any of the things he does for his constituents. So there lies the crux - Ring represents his constituents' local needs, but has no intention really of working in the national legislature.
Martin Ferris
Jackie Healy Rae
John O Donohue
And we are accussed of having gombeen polticians.
"We"?
Ring and JHR are the most obnoxiously unfit politicians to serve on the national stage but the sensible ones are not much better. Ireland has a crowd of politicians elected for the good days when money came down with the rain. The current challenges facing the country are beyond the capacity of its political class. The country was bet on neoliberalism at 2/1 on and the bet was lost. Irish Elites of all persuasions (with the honourable exceptions of a few sports teams) have failed- that cuts cross religions, politics, administration and business. A whole generation of business leaders for example has been effectively wiped out although many of the spoofers are still drawing big salaries. for nothing in return.
Quote from: seafoid on November 01, 2010, 05:02:21 PM
Ring and JHR are the most obnoxiously unfit politicians to serve on the national stage but the sensible ones are not much better. Ireland has a crowd of politicians elected for the good days when money came down with the rain. The current challenges facing the country are beyond the capacity of its political class. The country was bet on neoliberalism at 2/1 on and the bet was lost. Irish Elites of all persuasions (with the honourable exceptions of a few sports teams) have failed- that cuts cross religions, politics, administration and business. A whole generation of business leaders for example has been effectively wiped out although many of the spoofers are still drawing big salaries. for nothing in return.
The role of a T.D is to serve the needs of its constituents in the case of Michael Ring its Mayo and he does it very well. The role of the parliamentary party is to serve the needs of the country at large. Michale Ring nor Jackie Healy rae are part of the parliamentary party.
Quote from: Peter Solan the Great on November 01, 2010, 05:06:56 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 01, 2010, 05:02:21 PM
Ring and JHR are the most obnoxiously unfit politicians to serve on the national stage but the sensible ones are not much better. Ireland has a crowd of politicians elected for the good days when money came down with the rain. The current challenges facing the country are beyond the capacity of its political class. The country was bet on neoliberalism at 2/1 on and the bet was lost. Irish Elites of all persuasions (with the honourable exceptions of a few sports teams) have failed- that cuts cross religions, politics, administration and business. A whole generation of business leaders for example has been effectively wiped out although many of the spoofers are still drawing big salaries. for nothing in return.
The role of a T.D is to serve the needs of its constituents in the case of Michael Ring its Mayo and he does it very well. The role of the parliamentary party is to serve the needs of the country at large. Michale Ring nor Jackie Healy rae are part of the parliamentary party.
The modern world is all about competition, PSG. Do you think the Chinese politburo would elect a gobshite like JHR ? If you want local people like him to represent local people then the county councils need to be strengthened with devolved powers.
Would you put Jackie Healy Rae a great man for the planning permission on your county football team? Why not ?
Quote from: seafoid on November 01, 2010, 05:58:52 PM
Quote from: Peter Solan the Great on November 01, 2010, 05:06:56 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 01, 2010, 05:02:21 PM
Ring and JHR are the most obnoxiously unfit politicians to serve on the national stage but the sensible ones are not much better. Ireland has a crowd of politicians elected for the good days when money came down with the rain. The current challenges facing the country are beyond the capacity of its political class. The country was bet on neoliberalism at 2/1 on and the bet was lost. Irish Elites of all persuasions (with the honourable exceptions of a few sports teams) have failed- that cuts cross religions, politics, administration and business. A whole generation of business leaders for example has been effectively wiped out although many of the spoofers are still drawing big salaries. for nothing in return.
The role of a T.D is to serve the needs of its constituents in the case of Michael Ring its Mayo and he does it very well. The role of the parliamentary party is to serve the needs of the country at large. Michale Ring nor Jackie Healy rae are part of the parliamentary party.
The modern world is all about competition, PSG. Do you think the Chinese politburo would elect a gobshite like JHR ? If you want local people like him to represent local people then the county councils need to be strengthened with devolved powers.
Would you put Jackie Healy Rae a great man for the planning permission on your county football team? Why not ?
Well thats our system unfortunately. Giving Co Co devolved power would lead to nepotism and corruption on scales unseen even now in this country.
Quote from: Peter Solan the Great on November 01, 2010, 05:06:56 PM
The role of a T.D is to serve the needs of its constituents in the case of Michael Ring its Mayo westport and he does it very well. The role of the parliamentary party is to serve the needs of the country at large. Michale Ring nor Jackie Healy rae are part of the parliamentary party.
FYP
He has done f**k all north of newport except turn up at funerals.
Look at this stuff and tell me how there's any hope for this country as long as people are prepared to vote imbeciles, cretins and crooks like these into our legislature.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgmTvQ2nU88
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PYbIGmQFLY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDOUl1MMCFk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGDPhyo6b-4
Seems to me he was using some irony . One thing this downturn has led to is for most people to take another look at the quality of our polititans . I am more concerned about the abilities of thoes who sit around the cabinet table
Quote from: Hardy on November 01, 2010, 05:13:33 PM
Quote from: Peter Solan the Great on November 01, 2010, 05:03:39 PM
Quote from: Hardy on November 01, 2010, 04:51:46 PM
"We"?
As in Mayo.
Ah right - our gombeen chimp is not as bad as your gombeen chimp. Light the bonfires.
We
Do have gombeen politicians in Mayo. Just because the person pointing it out comes from somewhere else doesn't change that. However your list of the Kerry delegation to Kildare Street is as depressing as any county.
Quote from: muppet on November 01, 2010, 10:25:18 PM
Quote from: Hardy on November 01, 2010, 05:13:33 PM
Quote from: Peter Solan the Great on November 01, 2010, 05:03:39 PM
Quote from: Hardy on November 01, 2010, 04:51:46 PM
"We"?
As in Mayo.
Ah right - our gombeen chimp is not as bad as your gombeen chimp. Light the bonfires.
We Do have gombeen politicians in Mayo. Just because the person pointing it out comes from somewhere else doesn't change that. However your list of the Kerry delegation to Kildare Street is as depressing as any county.
On the pre motorway road from Dublin into Galway around Castlegar at one of the roundabouts a few years ago there was a sign about litter. It said "Galway deserves better" and every time I saw it I though "Galway deserves a better class of citizen".
The politicians elected reflect the people who vote. Sadly the current crowd are losing the country's economic sovereignty and have destroyed the financial credibility that was built up painstakingly by previous generations of politicians and civil servants. but people will still turn out and Vote FF and JHR and Michael Lowry in the next election
It is a bit too simplistic to say we get the politicians we deserve. Can anyone really say that many quality people went for election to the Dail and didn't get in? The people don't have much room for manoveruing. We have two main political parties who, more often than not, put forward local councillors with about as much class as a Ryan McMenamin insult and then Labour, SF, Greens etc are so weak nationally that many of their candidates in certain parts of the country are much worse. In Mayo in 2007 we elected John O'Mahony, Michael Ring, Beverley Flynn, Enda Kenny and Dara Calleary. Now, being completely honest, we should only be happy with the last two. But, with the honourable exception of Jerry Cowley, those five were the best that went to post. What do you do with that?
It is not the people who are to blame. It is the system and our legacy from the Civil War that means we have a majority of politicians who are two sides of the same coin, with no radical ideological differences. Bland versus blander. And what makes one stand above another? Being able to do you 'the twist' with a medical card or a college grant etc. And that, I'm afraid to say, is what the likes of Michael Ring does so well and why he is continuously elected.
Good article from Fintan O'Toole in the Irish times on Saturday.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/1030/1224282293839.html
Here's O'Toole's article - interesting piece, and well-researched as always.
Undermined on the one hand by Ministers and on the other by clientelism, the Irish parliament is probably the weakest in the democratic world. In an extract from his new book, FINTAN O'TOOLE sets out a programme to fix the country
IRISH PEOPLE believe they live in a parliamentary democracy. Until they grasp the rather obvious fact that they don't, they have no hope of creating a republican system of government.
The Irish parliament is probably the weakest in the democratic world. The Dáil does not make laws: it passes them. Legislation is almost never initiated by TDs. At best they get to debate the rights and wrongs of legislation proposed by government and perhaps to make some minor amendments. But even these privileges can be taken away whenever a government chooses to do so, usually at the end of a term, when it pushes through all its unfinished business.
Consider a single day's work: that of July 1st this year, the day after it was announced that Anglo Irish Bank is officially the biggest bank failure in the world. In this one day the Dáil "debated" and "scrutinised" the ratification of the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants; the report and final stages of the Central Bank Reform Bill; the report and final stages of the Planning and Development Bill; and the report and final stages of the Civil Partnership Bill.
This is, by any standards, an impressive range of work. The Stockholm Convention is a very important international environmental treaty. The Central Bank and Planning bills were the key government responses to the anarchy in banking and development that had destroyed the economy. The Civil Partnership Bill was a historic step towards full equality for gay and lesbian citizens. What kind of parliament could possibly deal with all of this momentous matter in a day? Answer: one made of rubber with a large wooden handle coming out its back and the word "Passed" carved backwards on its chest.
All of these crucial issues were debated the way that a juggernaut debates roadkill and scrutinised with the intensity that a dead man fixes on the inside of his coffin lid.
IT NEVER, EVER happens that a Minister resigns from office because of maladministration in the department that he or she theoretically heads. And yet in law (reinforced as recently as 1997) the Minister is the department. As the Ombudsman put it in 2001, legally "all acts of the Department and of its officials are the acts of the Minister". Why does the transparent pretence that the Minister is the flesh-and-blood incarnation of the department survive its own patent absurdity? Because it suits both Ministers and civil servants. It is the perfect shield against accountability. When there is a screw-up the senior civil servants point out that it is the Minister who should answer for it to the Dáil. And the Minister explains to the Dáil that he or she could not possibly have known what was happening in the bowels of the bureaucracy and that it would be absurd to blame the Minister for somebody else's c**k-up. Hence, in fact, nobody is answerable to anyone.
There is a long history of this dodging, but it reached its zenith in 2005 with the unravelling of a particularly egregious blunder. It emerged that the State had been charging elderly people for beds in public nursing homes even though it had no legal power to do so. About €2 billion had been taken unlawfully by the State from vulnerable citizens. Who was responsible? In 2003 the minister for health, Micheál Martin (along with his special advisors and junior ministers), was given a briefing document that disclosed the scandal, but he did nothing. Why? Because, he explained, he did not read the brief.
IF THE DÁIL does not legislate and cannot hold Ministers to account, what does it do? The one remaining recognisable function of a democratic parliament is to conduct inquiries on issues of public policy and the performance of state institutions.
The Dáil (sometimes jointly with the Senate) does this, but in a pitifully weak way. Its one success, the Public Accounts Committee investigation into the evasion of Dirt tax by the Irish banks, was followed by a legal dismantling of the powers that allowed that investigation to be conducted.
The Supreme Court ruled in 2002 that parliamentary committees could not make adverse findings against citizens. It ruled that the Dáil had "no explicit, implicit or inherent power to conduct an inquiry".
Any self-respecting parliament would have asked the people to change the Constitution to reverse this decision. The Dáil did nothing. The vast majority of TDs seemed largely indifferent to the ruling. They probably assumed that their voters didn't give a damn either. And they may have been right: Jim Mitchell, who chaired the successful Dirt inquiry, was rewarded by a grateful electorate with the loss of his seat in the 2002 election.
Our system, then, gives us a parliament that does not hold governments to account, does not create laws, does not have the power to conduct serious investigations and is not representative of the people in terms either of seeking to express their views or of being at all typical of them in class, age or gender. A parliamentary system that is unable to meet any one of these basic requirements is in need of radical reform. A system that fails to meet a single one of them needs to be demolished and entirely rebuilt.
CHANGE IN THE political system has to start with local democracy. But the creation of real local government opens the way to the creation of a real national parliament. It puts the parish pump back where it belongs: in the parish. That in turn forces the Oireachtas to clarify exactly what it is for.
For a start, with local issues handled at local level, the Dáil can be both smaller and more efficient. Exact numbers can be argued over, but it is hard to see why the Dáil needs more than 100 members.
This is especially so if the Senate is to be retained. In its current form, the Senate is an utterly indefensible institution. It bears no relation even to the "vocational" body that is envisaged in the Constitution, representing different professional and social groups. It is so discredited that no one seems to care that a constitutional amendment to reform it slightly by broadening the numbers of third-level educational institutions whose graduates could vote for Senators, passed by referendum in 1979, has not been implemented.
There is, nevertheless, a good case for having a second chamber that allows those other than professional politicians to contribute to the law-making process. Such a chamber should be made up partly of representatives of new local councils and partly of representatives of the social partners and civil-society groups. It should be used, quite consciously, to make politics more representative of the population by having a requirement for gender balance and by reserving places for youth groups and religious and ethnic minorities.
As for the Dáil itself, four sweeping changes are necessary. The first is in the electoral system. The single transferable vote (STV) is arguably the most sophisticated of voting systems and is relatively fair. The problem with the system, though, is that it creates intense competition within political parties. Larger parties will put up multiple candidates, especially in the larger constituencies. We know from bitter experience in Ireland that this contributes hugely to the maintenance of a clientelist culture.
One truism of Irish politics that is not mythical is that it is internal party rivalry that turns politicians into demented ward-heelers. In an Oireachtas survey, TDs themselves reported that for every extra candidate from their party in their constituency, TDs engage in higher proportions of constituency work. It is impossible to break this mentality without ditching the STV system, at least at national level.
For the Dáil the most viable alternative is probably what's called the additional member system (AMS). The basic idea is simple enough. About half the seats in parliament are elected in a straightforward first-past-the-post system in each constituency. But the citizen has a second vote for the other half. This is a national PR election for candidates on competing (usually party) lists.
Effectively, the national-list seats balance out the disproportional effect of the first-past-the-post vote. The one serious drawback of the system is that it works against independent candidates, who are effectively forced to form groups in order to complete under the list system. (On the other hand, small parties can do well under the system: in Scotland the Greens got 2 per cent of the vote in the 2010 Scottish parliament elections and the same proportion of seats: two.) But this is surely a price worth paying for the considerable benefits of greatly reducing clientelism and creating a new category of national politicians who are not dependent on constituency work.
The second essential change is one that is much easier to implement in this new electoral system: quotas for women. Quotas are at best a necessary evil. Women politicians who have been elected without them tend to resent the idea as potentially devaluing their own achievements; of the current 23 female TDs, 14 are against a quota for female candidates, eight are in favour and one is undecided. But there is absolutely no reason to believe that the grotesque imbalance in political life is going to change of its own accord.
The best way to create quotas is not through complex legislation but through financial penalties. Most of the money on which political parties run comes directly from the State. Under a list system it is far easier for those parties to ensure that their lists (drawn up by the national organisations) are gender- balanced. Parties should get all their current state money if they have a list that is 50 per cent women. They should be docked proportionally as their number of women on the list falls below 50 per cent. Below 30 per cent and they get nothing.
The third big change that has to be made is to give Dáil and Oireachtas committees real powers to conduct inquiries. It says much about the gutlessness of so many TDs that, having gained some respect by conducting its groundbreaking inquiry into the evasion of Dirt by the banks, the Dáil has acquiesced in the impossibility of conducting such an inquiry ever again.
What needs to be established, preferably in the Constitution, is that the Oireachtas has not merely the power but also the duty to conduct inquiries for the purposes of examining the uses to which public money is being put, of holding the government of the day accountable and of scrutinising the implementation of the laws it has passed. Such inquiries by Dáil or Oireachtas committees should have the same powers and privileges as tribunals of inquiry: to compel witnesses to attend, to demand the production of all documents a committee wishes to see and to publish its findings without the risk of being sued.
The fourth crucial change is to end the charade of ministerial "responsibility". The system whereby Ministers hide behind civil servants who hide behind Ministers and no one is personally responsible for anything is at the heart of the failure of accountability in the administrative and governmental systems.
We have to establish real transparency in the system of government, so that the name of the person who makes a decision is recorded and disclosed. Ministers should be accountable for three things: decisions they actually make, the way they follow up information they are given and the way they supervise the implementation of instructions they give to civil servants. (There are circumstances in which a Minister should be held accountable for not knowing something.) Named officials should be accountable for everything else. They should be able to defend themselves when questioned, if appropriate by pointing to a Minister's actions or wilful inaction. And they should take the rap when they themselves have screwed up.
THESE FOUR CHANGES will not of themselves create a parliamentary democracy where none has existed before in Ireland. If voters still want gombeen politics, stroke-pullers and local messengers, they will get them in any conceivable electoral system.
Equally, no parliament will ever transcend that culture unless it has a party system that offers voters real and serious alternatives. Those alternative ideas have to be carried into parliament by people who actually believe in them and are prepared to vote in accordance with those beliefs. Radical change does not guarantee the emergence of a functioning parliamentary democracy. But its absence guarantees the survival of a dysfunctional one.
Can we fix it? Yes we can 30 key steps to take
1 Establish a genuine system of local democracy. Introduce a property tax to fund it.
2 Transfer the useful functions of quangos to local councils.
3 Bring in legally binding national standards for planning and development and give the National Spatial Strategy statutory status.
4 Implement the Kenny report of 1974, allowing councils to purchase development land for its existing value plus 25 per cent.
5 Establish "deliberative democracy" experiments in every substantial community.
6 Severely limit the ability of governments to use the guillotine mechanism to pass legislation that has not been debated in parliament.
7 End the fiction that Ministers are responsible for everything that happens in their departments. Make them responsible for decisions they take and for information they ought to know. Make senior civil servants responsible for the decisions they take.
8 Restore the right of the Oireachtas to inquire into all activities involving the use of public money.
9 Make all appointments to state and public boards open to public competition and subject to Oireachtas scrutiny.
10 Reduce the size of the Dáil to 100 members.
11 Either make the Seanad representative of civil society, social partners and the new local councils within a short time frame or abolish it.
12 Change the Dáil electoral system to the additional-member system.
13 Introduce a gender quota of at least 30 per cent, to be enforced by reducing public payments to political parties by the degree to which they fail to introduce gender balance.
14 Hand primary schools over to local and democratic ownership and control.
15 Replace GDP as the primary measure of progress with a well-being index.
16 Radically curtail tax incentives for private pensions and stop putting money into the National Pension Reserve Fund. Use the money to increase the state pension for everyone to 40 per cent of pre-retirement income.
17 Switch spending from both social-welfare rent supplements and tax breaks for landlords to the provision of decent social housing.
18 Introduce a national system of social health insurance, abolishing the two-tier health system and radically reducing the size of the Health Service Executive.
19 Switch more health spending towards community and preventive services. Implement the primary-care strategy.
20 Charge university fees to those who can afford them. Increase grants for those who are currently excluded.
21 Expand adult and continuing education. Consider the idea of individual "education funds" attaching equally to each citizen.
22 Identify children at risk of failure from an early age and intervene immediately with personal and family supports.
23 Make the pay of those at the top a fixed percentage of that of those at the bottom.
24 Bring taxes up to average European levels. Reduce tax breaks to average EU levels, saving more than €5 billion.
25 Limit to three the number of directorships of public companies that any one individual can hold at the same time.
26 Give coherent legislative protection to bona-fide whistleblowers.
27 Restore the Freedom of Information Act to its former status.
28 Create a register of lobbyists and publish records of all meetings between lobbyists, ministers and public officials.
29 Review company law to end impunity for white-collar crime.
30 Ban all significant private donations to political parties and force all registered parties to publish full annual accounts.
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QuoteIt is a bit too simplistic to say we get the politicians we deserve.
I hear what you say, but the core problem in this country is lack of accountability - we vote them in, we are ultimately responsible. It's not enough to say there is no choice - do you think the Dáil would have the temerity to form a government in the event of an election turnout of less than 20%? Things will never change if the voters of Ireland don't decide to change - do you really think the gobshites we call our elected representatives want change, or will force change? If we don't make change happen, it won't. No point complaining about it.