my question stems from a great nights craic with a pensioner, an excellent pint and a good turf fire. he told me that when he was young he played mid-field for his club and never took it too seriously and frequently turned up with a few scoops on him but he was blessed with skill and always got on, and infact was asked on several occasions to try out for the orchard but never bothered. there were other guys there who werent very good footballers but trained like hell. now he says he regrets not taking it more seriously as hes remembered as a good nights craic and the lads who tried like hell are remembered as great footballers. i met one of his neighbours at a match and ran the story past him i was told he had one of the best pair of hands he ever seen. a sad story really but probably echoed in in every pub in ireland. which brings me to the question who in modern day football is over-rated and punches above their weight in reputation stakes and who do you think was brilliant but never grabbed the headlines?
in armagh houlie-- over-rated andy mccann-- under--rated. some reasons for your choices are always useful
Most over rated of them all......Kevin Mc Gourty - good club footballer, average intercounty player, high profile does not translate into high quality....
Quotein armagh houlie-- over-rated andy mccann-- under--rated. some reasons for your choices are always useful
But you don't give us reasons for yours? :-\
Conor Mortimer - most over rated in Ireland, by himself more than anyone else as well...
Damien Freeman from Monaghan is as good a half back as there is in the country, and has been for three years. Hugely underrated
In Cavan, Damien Reilly was under rated as was Gerry Sheridan. Jason over rated
Quote from: Handball Ace on February 19, 2007, 10:26:36 PM
Damien Freeman from Monaghan is as good a half back as there is in the country, and has been for three years. Hugely underrated
Not true I'm afraid. A quality footballer no doubt but he's not a half back. He used to be a forward but was moved to the half back a few years ago. The general consenus though was that he was too fond of going forward and was a bit of a loose marker. This year he has been moved back into the forwards where I think he belongs.
Again, a super footballer - just not a half back.
i have to say id have had owen mulligan in the over-rated section but lately hes shown some guts and that he doesnt need wee peter to hand him the ball. so for now hes neither over nor under-rated. actually the blond bomber is starting to grow on me.
the most over rated member of the tyrone set up at the minute is the unshaven one himself he makes me laugh as he puts on the furrowed brow and wonders which one of his equally talented charges he'll play next, even steve stauntan could get a win outa tyrone at the minute
Jaysus theres no end to the humor coming outta the orchard these days, to think its only Feb too :D
Jesus lawnseed, whatever you do don't question anything to do with tyrone. they can do no wrong, even when they're wrong its the rules thats wrong, don't you know. you'll look very silly later in the year when they win both the circket and rugby world cup to add to the premiership and the mckenna cup... which they'll win on the 9th appeal to the us supreme court.
Most over rated- Stephen Kernan, because he's shite, Most under-rated- Shane Ryan for the fact that he can play in almost any posistion.
Agree with the Kevin Mc Gourty statement, decent club player and a basic at best county player. Peter Donnelly from my own Tyrone - I dunno if you'd call him over-rated, as few actually rate him. But hes been laying about the Tyrone panel for a while and to be honest hes clean useless. Tomas Quinn of Dublin has to be there too, a free/penalty taker who regularly misses.
over rated: Ciaran Whelan
Under rated: Shane Ryan
Given that Whelo seems not to be rated by anyone outside of Dublin, it does perplex me somewhat how he manages to show up so often on over-rated lists!
Personally I think Dublin have two players who are under-rated nationally, our corner backs Griffin and Henry.
I believe Brogan, Cullen and Cluxton get the most praise of all Dublin players nationally. I think Brogan lived up to it in the last two years and is now rightfully regarded as one of the best forwards in the country IMO, similarly Cluxton one of the best keepers around undoubtedly and Cullen will hopefully live up to his billing over the next few years - probably a little bit to do to justify his press, but thats because he's expected to come though (of course easier said than done).
Over-rated; Sean Og O'Hailpin
Under-rated; Kevin Broderick
would it be a good suggestion to only under & over rate players from within your own county?
anyway within my own county over-rated in my view are donnelly & penrose
under-rated are enda mcginley & carlin
Quote from: mouview on February 20, 2007, 11:37:22 AM
Over-rated; Sean Og O'Hailpin
Under-rated; Kevin Broderick
Are you mental, Sean Og is over rated?? Have you ever seen a player getting the better of him? Eoin Kelly maybe once for Waterford,Dan Shanahan destroyed Tipp last year and was expected to do something similar against Cork, he never got a ball off O'Hailpin...
Syd, they actually broke even, (I know, they were in front of me in the first half. And Big Dan is no world beater himself anyway). Sean Og gave away a point that day with a loose sideline cut. Daragh Coen destroyed him at U-21 level when O'Hailpin was full-back for Cork. Jamsie O'Connor could always get the better of him when Clare were in the ascendancy. He had a poor season last year if you look back on it, not even nominated for an All-Star. My point remains, for all the ballyhoo about him, he remains an excellent athlete but an extremely moderate hurler.
I agree with you RRHF, Ciaran Whelan is the most over rated player in the country. Hound, the media seem to pay alot of attention to him.
I also agree with you regarding Shane Ryan, Dublin lost that semi-final last year when he was moved from midfield and then taken off. Great player.
In my own county:
Over rated - Malachy Mackin, the fact that he continues to get a starting jersey baffles me.
Under rated - Martin O'Rourke - does some donkey work.
Sean Og is definitely not over rated, he is deadly. Although he was an average footballer!
QuoteNot true I'm afraid. A quality footballer no doubt but he's not a half back
I know he was a forward. I was in Croke Park in league quarter final in 98 against Down, that was hie Monaghan debut I think and he kicked the first three points - I know how good he is as a forward.
However, I think he really came into his own when Banty moved him to half back. Constantly bombing forward, guts, style, the whole package imho
So we are now talking about how he played in Under 21 matches? Very topical, he may have had a below par year last year but that is only due to the high standards he has set, not quite as below par as the tribesmen but sure thats for another day....
most under rated dara o se because there isnt a footballer to touch him in the country
over rated ciaran donaghy a one trick pony with a bad temperment
Hound IMHO CLuxton is very over-rated.
He has undoubtably the best kick-out in the game but after that I see little to shout about. He can be a good shot-stopper but he cost Dublin the goal against us last year which arguably ended Dublin's season. He is too quick off his line when an attacker still has a defender to beat.
He was also very lucky early in the game when Mortimer rounded him very easily but blasted over. This is probably painful viewing but look at 1 minute 9 seconds on this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbcEbvRk4BE)
To provide some balance I would add that Shane Ryan is a very underrated performer for the Dubs and moving him from midfield last year was a mistake particularly with Whelo having one of his dark days.
over rated - Joe Broly
under rated - Geoffrey McGonigle
Have to say i think Oisin mcConville is well underrated, or at least not appreciated. The last ten years he's been good for 4/5 pts at least a match but Armagh people always seem to be on his back.
Overrated? Probably Whelan. Too many let downs IMHO...
Syd, Syd, Syd, I don't know you from Adam, but I guess that you're a young person, quite easily influenced by what you read on the newspapers and by what you hear from M'O'M's commentaries on the radio. For all Sean Og's litany of greatness he didn't actually get an All-Star until 2003. If it weren't for the fact that he was a member of a very good Cork defensive unit, I seriously doubt if his 'standards' would be quite so high. Next time he's playing, watch him closely, and try not to be misled by the media instead, good lad.
As for the Tribesmen, under-rated - dunno, under-achievers - yes, definitely.
Quote from: mouview on February 20, 2007, 12:27:33 PM
. Next time he's playing, watch him closely, and try not to be misled by the media instead, good lad.
:D :D
in derry under rated kevin mcguckian(class act) over rated mark lynch
Own County:
Underrated: Joe McMahon (big time - especially by MH it seems), Enda McGinley, Mulligan (recently), Mellon (thought at times he can be brutal - big confidence player), Carlin, Marlowe, McCullogh
Overrated: Penrose, Cormac McGinley, Collie Holmes, Mulgrew (too much hype too young, not his fault though - and hopefully will justify in another year or two)
Other Counties:
Underrated: Enda mcNulty, Barry Owens (in the other 3 provinces), Lacey, Galvin
Overrated: Stephen Kernan, Mortimer(s), Joe Kernan, Enda Muldoon, Skinner Bradley, MF Russell
Quote from: drumanee on February 20, 2007, 12:46:39 PM
in derry under rated kevin mcguckian(class act) over rated mark lynch
I wont comment on Mark but if anything I think McGuckian is actually over rated.
He's good but I have seen him being beaten too often for him to be considered THAT good (YET) !
Quote from: mouview on February 20, 2007, 12:27:33 PM
Syd, Syd, Syd, I don't know you from Adam, but I guess that you're a young person, quite easily influenced by what you read on the newspapers and by what you hear from M'O'M's commentaries on the radio. For all Sean Og's litany of greatness he didn't actually get an All-Star until 2003. If it weren't for the fact that he was a member of a very good Cork defensive unit, I seriously doubt if his 'standards' would be quite so high. Next time he's playing, watch him closely, and try not to be misled by the media instead, good lad.
As for the Tribesmen, under-rated - dunno, under-achievers - yes, definitely.
You seem to be talking through your hole, i watched O'Hailpin play as a minor in Croke Park in 1994, i have played against him at U-21 County level and feel i can offer up a fairly decent opinion of him. What has he done to upset the Galway people so much? maybe if some of the Galway players actually achieved something they would get as high a profile.
Most underated player in Tyrone by a Long way is Mickey Mc Gee. Class act at corner back. Just take a look at the last ten minutes in 2005 All Ireland Final V Kerry. His may never be seen on the ball much but neither does his man. One of Tyrones key defenders who get very little if any mention.
Most over rated - Ciaran McKeever
Most under ated - Martin O Rourke
Ciaran McKeever COULD become a great player, thankfully he seems more intend on simply being a thug on the pitch and securing a 'reputation' for himself (echoed at club level I believe).
Not that Big Joe will steer him away from all that........................
Tyroneman,
I dunno how you can say Colin Holmes is overrated? He's a ulility player and does a sound job when he comes on without being outstanding. Thats a utility players job & to be a versatile back-up for a variety of positions, which I think he does as well as might be expected.
Enda McGinley and Joe Mc Mahon definitely are under-rated. McMahon will come into his own as one of the best around eventually but McGinley gets little credit for his work. Dooher is under-rated in the scale of things too. His importance to the team in the role he plays is vast. McCullagh is another who is a class act and is only now getting the chance to really show it(well due to soccer and injuries).
I think Kieran Donaghey is over-rated, he has been about a few years and did nothing then suddenly hit a purple patch(fair play to him), but I cant see him doing the same this year.
Mark Lynch from Derry is a prime case of a player showing the effects of burnout. Since 2002 Minor All Ireland he has been play schools/club/county/uni football and hurling. Through this we have not seen the best of him yet. Big Geoffrey was definitely under-rated. Scoring machine in either code.
Darragh O'Se is not maybe under-rated, but I think that the man doesnt get the praise that he deserves. In the traditional mould of a midfielder, hes the best about and has been since Tohill went. The best fielder of a ball in the country.
Shane Ryan is overweight and i can say with hand on heart i can never remember im having a outstanding game. He has also got more runarounds that a roundabout.
Underated-- Agree with corn Martin o Rourke, A Mc Cann was, Mc Grane never got the recognition he deserved. Mike Frank Russell is a great footballer and so was Johnny Crawley. But then again Kerry can produce them. Anthony Lynch,
Over rated-- Pascal mc connell (bombscare) Whelan, Shane Ryan, Malachy Mackin,
I am sure each one of us could name 6 or seven but they would all be from bigger counties. This is an injustice to the smaller counties because they would have the majority of underated players. Players who could probably grace any team in Ireland.
Syd, now you're the one talking about U-21 matches. He lost the '94 final to a Galway side didn't he? To repeat myself, I saw him getting cleaned by Daragh Coen (himself hardly world-class) in the '96 AI semi-final on a wet evening in Ennis, he was FB that day. I'm not deriding him as a person, on the contrary I think he's an admirable sportsman and an excellent role model, just an average hurler. Neither am I speaking on behalf of anyone in Galway, so stay on-message a little bit, there's a good fellow.
Maybe if some of the Galway players showed the same discipline & commitment as Sean Og they wouldnt be as far away from Liam Mc Carthy as ever.....
Mouview you keep going on about Daragh Coen taking Sean Og to the cleaners (11 years ago I might add). Does one dodgy performance make you a bad or even average hurler?! Sure I hear Henry Shefflin had a bad runout at under-10 one year. He must be crap.
OVER-RATED: Alan Brogan, I think he's bit of a headless chicken. Everytime he gets the ball I think they should play the music from some really bad car chase scene in a black and white movie.
UNDER-RATED: Graham Geraghty, this man is one of the most naturally talented players of the last twenty years. The only reason that people do not appreciate his talents is because they are blinded by their unfounded hatred of the man
QuoteOVER-RATED: Alan Brogan,
::)
Archie, I am just providing counter-evidence (and one example) to a point made earlier that 'no-one ever took O'Hailpin to the cleaners' - read the posts man.
The majority of the dublin team. But this is mainly due to the attention of the media.
Quote from: mouview on February 20, 2007, 03:04:56 PM
Archie, I am just providing counter-evidence (and one example) to a point made earlier that 'no-one ever took O'Hailpin to the cleaners' - read the posts man.
I would have thought we were talking senior intercounty hurling here when this thread was started. But if anyone has any evidence of Sean Og getting cleaned out in an Under 10 blitz or at minor training for Na Piarsigh please let me know.
Under rated Sean cavanagh some folk would rather have Darragh O Se - you are welcome.
Over rated - Daragh O Se
In Antrim football, Michael McCann is very under rated. IMO best club footballer in Antrim, would walk onto any other county team.
Under-rated from my own county, think Eamon Maguire would be excellent surrounded by quality forwards, always involved, creating space, great link player and great workrate, but not a prolific scorer so doesn't get the credit
Owens would walk onto any county team, but I think the country knows that now.
A lot of Fermanagh people count Ryan McCluskey a better man marker, he always does a good job and is under-rated outside of Fermanagh
In cavan overrated would be Nicholas Walsh - article in star a few weeks ago had him as cavans star player .. Would prob b more rated outside of county that in it due to such media hype because of his stint in australia.
Underrated would be gerard pierson hopefully the county will see how good this man is this year. Was playing great stuff in 2005 until injuring his cruciate in challenge game against dublin and missed last year. only getting back to fitness now and showing well in league games.
Over rated - Johnny Corvan Armagh (always flopped when it mattered)
The grimley twins Armagh, decent hands but no vision or feet
Paddy Bradley Derry - (head too big and no team ethic)
Underrated - Philip Jordan, Sean Cavanagh, Tyrone, Paul Galvin Kerry (great engines, tough honest footballers that always deliver.
Continuing the theme,
Over-rated in Galway, sad to say;
Joe Bergin - good engine, honest player but very basic skills, kicking particularly poor
Nicky Joyce - when he's not on county panel it's "Bring back Nicky", when he's playing it's "Take him off to f*ck!"
Tony Og Regan - but do any supporters in Galway actually rate him that highly?
Under-rated
Perhaps Fergal Healy - suffers a bit in the physicality stakes but very skilful
Quote from: man in black on February 20, 2007, 04:44:15 PM
Underrated - Philip Jordan, Sean Cavanagh, Tyrone, Paul Galvin Kerry (great engines, tough honest footballers that always deliver.
Honest, you must be f**king joking me. The diving Jordan does is shocking
How is Jordan and Cavanagh under rated? sure how many all stars have they got? Jordans over rated if ya ask me, does far to much diving.
In antrim most over rated player is Kevin niblock, he is pure manure shouldnt even get on for st galls.
most under rated would be michael mc cann
Tipperary hurlers under-rated (outside Tipp) - Eamonn Corcoran & Paul Curran. Over-rated - Brendan Cummins (for the last year or two) and Lar Corbett.
Quote from: man in black on February 20, 2007, 04:44:15 PM
Over rated - Johnny Corvan Armagh (always flopped when it mattered)
Probably meant for the Harps contingent, and normally I wouldn't bother but......
Johnny Corvan's performances in the 1982 Ulster Final, the All Ireland Semi-final in 1982, the 1983 and 1985 National League Finals, the 1983 Railway Cup Final and the 1991 Armagh County Final, would tend to suggest otherwise! ;)
Forgot to add - when Charlie Nelligan appeared as the guest on
Know Your Sport, he was asked about the great forwards he came up against in his illustrious career. The boul' Johnny was the first name mentioned! ;D
To be fair though Man in Black, your opinion would count for as much as that of Charlie Nelligan in the minds of most GAA followers! :D
I won't argue the point of the Grimleys as it's just two diametrically opposed opinions on the one subject.
QuoteJordans over rated if ya ask me
Of course he is. That's why he has 2 all-stars. I take it you
arent on the all-star selection comittee then? Thought not.
Quote from: Over the Bar on February 20, 2007, 01:59:14 PM
Tyroneman,
I dunno how you can say Colin Holmes is overrated? He's a ulility player and does a sound job when he comes on without being outstanding. Thats a utility players job & to be a versatile back-up for a variety of positions, which I think he does as well as might be expected.
100% correct!
Underrated: N Murphy, K McMahon, T Griffin, O Moran, G Power, T Doyle, J Quane, J Doyle, M Fitzgerald, G Geraghty
Overrated: C Mortimer, J Bergin, SM Lockhart,
Overrated unless they've a good 07: C Cooper, S McDonnell, C Whelan, B Cullen,
Quote from: blanketattack on February 21, 2007, 01:50:04 AM
Underrated: N Murphy, K McMahon, T Griffin, O Moran, G Power, T Doyle, J Quane, J Doyle, M Fitzgerald, G Geraghty
Overrated: C Mortimer, J Bergin, SM Lockhart,
Overrated unless they've a good 07: C Cooper, S McDonnell, C Whelan, B Cullen,
How can you say Cooper is overrated unless he has a good 07?
Ach, I suppose you are right, he has done nothing so far in his career ::) ::)
Hurling:
Overrated:
Ger Farragher - scoring machine from dead balls. Not too sure about his contribution from general play.
Eugene Cloonan - again scoring machine but have yet to see him roast a really good full back.
O'Halpin - pure athlete and a clearance machine but doesn't have the stickwork. Henry or DJ in his day would have given him some torrid times.
Underrated:
Kevin Broderick: give hima few games under his belt and he'd be deadly. Skillful, tricky the whole works.
JJ Delaney: rated as very good but don't think he gets the credit he deserves. The AI final which Cork beat Kilkenny in the other year Ben O'Connor had been scoring for fun up till it. That day he barely even touched the ball and when he did couldn't get hitting it.
Football:
Overrated:
Stevie from Killeavy: very good but hasn't the feet on him of a top class forward. Not in the league of Gooch and a bit behind O'Neill too I'd say. Still love him on my team but a bit over hyped.
Tom O'Sullivan - this boy has all stars. I think he's very average.
As per everyone else - Whelan.
Brendan Devenney - suspect temperament.
Conor Mortimer - when the going get tough the tough get going. Enough said.
Underrated:
Brian Dooher - has allstars etc. but without this man I don't think Tyrone would have any All Irelands now never mind two. I do think without Canavan they'd now have an All Ireland by the way.
From the past Brian McGilligan from Derry.
Damien Diver - great attacking half back. Was used as sub for Donegal for the last few years - don't understand why.
Shane Ryan - he was moved against Mayo amn't I right? Had he no been moved it'd have been a Dublin Kerry AI final.
Peadar Gardiner - very good half back.
QuoteOverrated: C Mortimer, J Bergin, SM Lockhart,
Overrated unless they've a good 07: C Cooper, S McDonnell, C Whelan, B Cullen
SM Lockhart is always chatted in such high regards. He may be a good man marker but his footballing ability is pretty average at best. For over-rated unless good in 07, not so sure about Cooper, had a bad 2006(ppl can throw up stats to counter this claim,but his contribution from play was limited) but has been great since 2002. Same with McDonnell, over-rated my hole. The man is class. Definitely agree with the 2 Dublin players, Cullen to the Dublin media is like Rooney/Gascoigne to the english. Far too much hype and based on what? As for Whelan, catches come good ball, but more frequently catches men with his elbow. Looks far too heavy as well.
Sean Og is a "clearance machine", what a fault in a back. He marked Henry in 2004 All Ireland Final & King Henry didnt do much. DJ may have given him a hard time unless it was in an All Ireland Final.....
A clearance machine on loose ball because of athleticism. However he'll not dispossess defenders a la JJ Delaney or the like. Don't get me wrong - brilliant. Just donesn't have the flicks and hooks the real skillful boys do.
I'd have Tommy Walsh, JJ Delaney, Ken McGrath or Tony Brown over him.
Still would love him for my county!
under rated historically (except maybe in Derry) Tony scullion was the best tightmarking Ulster back of the last 20 years.
Over rated historically: Kevin Mc Cabe Tyrone..
as a kildare man. on a national level Johnny Doyle is often forgotten about, he is overlooked coz we are crap at the mo.
over rated players the list are endless in kildare, great white hopes abound.
under
national level paul barden is shockin under rated, pure class. mcguigan as well, you see how important he is to tyrone when he is gone. times gone by o'cinneide who was more than a dead ball man. excellent vision too. anthony lynch too nearly forgot him.
over
yea mossy quinn, peadar andrews and goggins. how are they makin it still. peadar gardiner is a wing back who doesnt defend. sean cavanagh is a player still in search of his proper position too. dont think he is a proper midfielder.
Over rated - Derrys defence.Supposedly very good with players such as K Mc Cloy, K Mc Guckain, SM Lockhart etc.
They have been brutal and it is now a weak point of the team
Under rated - F Doherty.A class midfielder to match any of the best in Ireland
Quote from: full back on February 21, 2007, 08:24:48 AM
Quote from: blanketattack on February 21, 2007, 01:50:04 AM
Underrated: N Murphy, K McMahon, T Griffin, O Moran, G Power, T Doyle, J Quane, J Doyle, M Fitzgerald, G Geraghty
Overrated: C Mortimer, J Bergin, SM Lockhart,
Overrated unless they've a good 07: C Cooper, S McDonnell, C Whelan, B Cullen,
How can you say Cooper is overrated unless he has a good 07?
Ach, I suppose you are right, he has done nothing so far in his career ::) ::)
That's a strange one alright! Every player loses his form at some point, as Cooper did in the early part of last season. However, he's a young lad who had lost his auld fella very suddenly, so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. You don't lose the composure, accuracy and space-creating tricks that he possesses overnight.
Overrated -- Mossey Quinn (does feck all apart from swing his leg sometimes)
Underrated -- Conor Gormley (deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Moynihan, McGeeney etc)
Overweight: Clarke, the O'Rourkes, Hughes, Keaveney.
Underweight: Cooper, Ricey, Mark Harte.
under rated C mortimer
obviously no one here thinks hes any good so its hard to see how hws over rated . hes bee top scorer for mayo for about 5 years in which weve reached 2 all ireland finals the guy almost never misses free and get no credit for it and scoring is the name of the game
ergo
underrated
The main reason no-one rates Mortimer is because he's such a twat
He rates himself highly enough anyway
Under Rated: Conor Gormley (Agree he should be mentioned along with Moynihan and Mc Geeney) & Brian Mc Guigan (How he never got an all star in 05 I will never know!)
Over Rated: Raymond Mulgrew (So much hype for 1 so young and for me hasnt even shown glimpses of anything average never mind of any class!) & Davy Harte (He will be found out 1 day soon, in my opnion an average player)
A few others from past and present
under rated: Declan McCrossan (tyrone) -don't know much about this fella but looked class when ever I saw him play, bit loose maybe for a defender but class with the ball
Johnny doyle - one of the top five forwards in the country, if he played for the Dubs he'd be the new Messiah
Raymie Gallagher - as sweet a left peg as there was in the country when he was at his prime. Could fire over line balls at his leisure
Dermot McCabe - around 97/98/99, he was the top midfielder in the country by a mile. Fair enough, got an all star but also carried Cavan to an Ulster final which they narrowly lost to tyrone in '01 and a league final
Paddy Bradley - best forward in ireland imho (probably get shot down by the anti bradley brigade here)
neil Gallagher -every bit as good a fielder as O Se
Liam Doyle in hurling
Over rated: Nicholas Walsh definitely
David Brady - as one hack said "if he could turn around quick enough he'd ride himself"
Dessie Dolan
Sean Og O hAilpin
Quote from: Handball Ace on February 21, 2007, 11:30:46 PM
David Brady - as one hack said "if he could turn around quick enough he'd ride himself"
Quote
That's as maybe, but I wouldn't say he's over rated as a footballer, well obviously I wouldn't. But I think most people would have him ahead of McCabe in any team. Brady has played in quite a lot of big games, All Irelands etc. And if your one of the main midfielders, well teams don't tend to get to All Ireland finals with bad midfielders IMO
He wouldnt hold a candle to McCabe if they were both at their best in my opinion.
Plus, mayo 2003 (when they best an understandably weak tyrone, and then stumbled past star struck fermanagh before getting hammered) and 2005 (beat the pretty boys of Laois and Dublin, before getting destroyed) were the weakest team to make an All Ireland in living memory, so i doubt that holds water
Now, I'm not saying he's terrible or anything, we'd be gald to have him, what I'm saying is tjhat all the media posturing etc has led to him being perceived as a lot better than he is
Quote from: Handball Ace on February 22, 2007, 12:04:47 AM
Plus, mayo 2003 (when they best an understandably weak tyrone, and then stumbled past star struck fermanagh before getting hammered) and 2005 (beat the pretty boys of Laois and Dublin, before getting destroyed) were the weakest team to make an All Ireland in living memory, so i doubt that holds water
I suppose Fermanagh beat an understandly weak Armagh as well that day ???
You can only beat or be beaten by whats put in front of you
The fact that Brian McGuigan never got an all-star 2005 shows that he is under-rated, and even until tyrone lost him last year people never really appreciated how important he was to the side, he is the key player. Declan Mc Crossan is also under-rated. Hes only 27odd and pulled out of tyrone panel 2 years ago to 'build a house' just after he got married. He lives outside strabane and still plays away for Owen Roes. Not sure why there has never been talk of him coming back, maybe he just doesnt want to! Very stylish left footer!
QuoteYou can only beat or be beaten by whats put in front of you
True, but what point are you making?
My point was that Tyrone were weakened due to tragic circumstances, and that Fermanagh shot their bolt against an over cocky Armagh and having made more ground than other team in their history, they understandably buckled with an All Ireland in sight.
Had Tyrone been their usual forceful selves, or Armagh not taken Fermanagh for granted, Mayo wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell of being in that All Ireland final. They showed by their performance in the final that they weren't good enough for that level anyway, this is indisputable.
Fast forward two years and when Mayo again get mauled in an All Ireland, the question has to be asked again: how did they get here?
The answer is that they got a handy run again. By pure fluke, they didn't meet a genuine contender until the final (if you think Dublin or Laois were good enough to win an AI lst year then you are deluded).
Mayo are the luckiest team in Ireland. I'm not anti-Mayo or anything, I have a lot of friends from there and they're the soundest lads you could meet, but they're not good enough to win an AI, or to even put it up to one of the "Big Three", with the current side.
Quote from: nrico2006 on February 22, 2007, 08:54:32 AM
The fact that Brian McGuigan never got an all-star 2005 shows that he is under-rated, and even until tyrone lost him last year people never really appreciated how important he was to the side, he is the key player. Declan Mc Crossan is also under-rated. Hes only 27odd and pulled out of tyrone panel 2 years ago to 'build a house' just after he got married. He lives outside strabane and still plays away for Owen Roes. Not sure why there has never been talk of him coming back, maybe he just doesnt want to! Very stylish left footer!
The Moustache ;D. Definitatley not under rated. He was over rated for years
Quote from: Handball Ace on February 22, 2007, 10:33:56 AM
QuoteYou can only beat or be beaten by whats put in front of you
True, but what point are you making?
My point was that Tyrone were weakened due to tragic circumstances, and that Fermanagh shot their bolt against an over cocky Armagh and having made more ground than other team in their history, they understandably buckled with an All Ireland in sight.
Had Tyrone been their usual forceful selves, or Armagh not taken Fermanagh for granted, Mayo wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell of being in that All Ireland final. They showed by their performance in the final that they weren't good enough for that level anyway, this is indisputable.
Fast forward two years and when Mayo again get mauled in an All Ireland, the question has to be asked again: how did they get here?
The answer is that they got a handy run again. By pure fluke, they didn't meet a genuine contender until the final (if you think Dublin or Laois were good enough to win an AI lst year then you are deluded).
Mayo are the luckiest team in Ireland. I'm not anti-Mayo or anything, I have a lot of friends from there and they're the soundest lads you could meet, but they're not good enough to win an AI, or to even put it up to one of the "Big Three", with the current side.
You make some fair points, and I'd agree that neither Dublin or Laois were good enough last season. However, if you take all competitions into account over the last 4-5 years (as some journo did a few months back ) I think, and I'm recalling from memory, so I could be wrong, that Mayo were the 3rd most consistent team in the country. Maybe someone else has that article saved somewhere and can confirm
Who are the current 'Big Three' in your view, I don't think Armagh fit into that category anymore. Kerry/Tyrone are the top two I'd say with a group of about 5 or 6 below them in the pecking order
QuotePlus, mayo 2003 (when they best an understandably weak tyrone, and then stumbled past star struck fermanagh before getting hammered) and 2005 (beat the pretty boys of Laois and Dublin, before getting destroyed) were the weakest team to make an All Ireland in living memory, so i doubt that holds water
Handball Ace I'd say you overrate your own memory given that it was 2004 and 2006.
Underrated - joe mcmahon, fergal doherty, alan molloy, paul mcgrane, anthony forde, anthony moyles, aaron hoey, barry cahill, johnny doyle, diarmaid kinsella, joe higgins, paul barden, diarmaid blake, brendan egan, wj padden, marc o'se, muiris gavin,
overrated - liam hinphy, kevin mcgourty, benny coulter, francie, seanie johnson, dick clerkin, phil jordan, con gormley, brendan devanny, paddy keenan, joe sheridan, alan brogan, the laois forward division, joe bergin, conor mortimer, kieran donaghy, steven lucey.
:o How can anyone say Conor Gormley or Phillip Jordan are over rated? Gormley for me is the best defender in Ulster. He can man mark, mark space, hit, score and intimidate. He was sadly missed last year for Tyrone and i think he may well have gotten voted Club player ofthe year the previous two years as well. Phillip Jordan, along with Thomas O Se has been the best half back in Ireland over this past four years and statistic prove that his man rarely has an impact on the game. Both him an Gormley complement other. IMO both men are in Tyrones top five most influential players.
Jordan could have bother holding his place this year if Dermy Carlin has anything to do with it.
"Phillip Jordan, along with Thomas O Se has been the best half back in Ireland over this past four years"
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but personally i prefer defenders who can actually mark their man and tackle... like tomas o'se.
Quote from: Uladh on February 22, 2007, 11:29:29 AM
Underrated - joe mcmahon, fergal doherty, alan molloy, paul mcgrane, anthony forde, anthony moyles, aaron hoey, barry cahill, johnny doyle, diarmaid kinsella, joe higgins, paul barden, diarmaid blake, brendan egan, wj padden, marc o'se, muiris gavin,
overrated - liam hinphy, kevin mcgourty, benny coulter, francie, seanie johnson, dick clerkin, phil jordan, con gormley, brendan devanny, paddy keenan, joe sheridan, alan brogan, the laois forward division, joe bergin, conor mortimer, kieran donaghy, steven lucey.
Would agree, bar one, Alan Brogan overated ? Dunno, one of the best forwards in the country. If we'd a transfer system he'd be first in my list for Mayo
Defintley wouldn't have Gormley in the overrated section. He seems to have returned from injury in super thug mode mind you.
Quoteoverrated - liam hinphy, kevin mcgourty, benny coulter, francie, seanie johnson, dick clerkin, phil jordan, con gormley, brendan devanny, paddy keenan, joe sheridan, alan brogan, the laois forward division, joe bergin, conor mortimer, kieran donaghy, steven lucey.
Agree with ur Under-rated players Uladh, but a few in the above section I dont. Liam Hinphey is definitely over-rated as such, but I didnt think many people actually rated him. He rarely kicks, the odd punt maybe, and plays a hand-passing game only really. Benny Coulter is not over-rated. He is quality. But I think people forget about the terrible side he plays in, which offer him little or no support.
Kevin Mc Gourty is a slabber really. Never achieved anything significant and is an average club player who rarely scores when he plays for Antrim. He is just handy spouting material for the Irish News when they have a page to fill, due to his location. Havent seen much of Joe Sheridan, and Devenney on his day is as good as there is about, no matter how big a p***k he is. Conor Gormley and Jordan are quality. Francie does his job in his way, not the most skillful but very effective. Donaghey is a one hit wonder, played well against the might of longford, then did well against armagh and mayo. See what he does this year, I think he will do very little. Mortimer is getting alot of stick, but the man is a quality player who gets the scores.
Alan Brogan looks good at times and terrible at other times. But has the potential. And seanie johnson has only really delivered a good inter-county performance against the might of down last summer.
Quote from: Handball Ace on February 21, 2007, 11:30:46 PM
Over rated: Nicholas Walsh definitely
David Brady - as one hack said "if he could turn around quick enough he'd ride himself"
Dessie Dolan
Sean Og O hAilpin
:o :o :o Ah fcuk it, I won't bother.
Under rated outside Westmeath: Damien Healy, Flan
Over rated inside Westmeath: Flan
Overrated: Mickey Walsh / B. Coulter
Underrated: Barry Breen / Gary Mason
QuoteWho are the current 'Big Three' in your view, I don't think Armagh fit into that category anymore
Tyrone, Kerry and Armagh in that order. I'm not a fan of any of the three teams but they know what i takes to win on the biggest stage of all, to grind out results... That's the most important quality of all imho
Can the same be said about Mayo, Laois, Dublin or whoever else? Definitely not.
The Dubs could make the breakthrough with a better manager and another top class forward. Mayo aren't
that far way either, as for the likes of Cork, Donegal, Laois etc - not in the same league.
It would be very dangerous to disregard Armagh just because some of their players are pushing on a bit.
I would put my house on the winners coming from Tyrone or Kerry providing both teams have their full side out. Armagh will still be there or thereabouts, very tough side who tend to grind out victories. But with age and injuries to Clarke and Mallon, they will fall short. Marsden is a good boost for Armagh, but how much will he bring with him. Mayo, Donegal, Dublin and Cork are THE only other possible all ireland winners.
alan brogan? overrated?
Not a chance, he is one of the best even if he plays with dublin.
Mayo being the luckiest, well in 2004 tyrone drew level with a goal but then mayo closed them down and scored 3 or 4 more nice points to win the game.
Tyrone may meet Mayo sometime soon again in the championship,i would like it to be this years semi or final just for the crack, we could see how the great tyrone do it this time.I hate sore losers but i really hate bad winners.
;D I have no love for either Mayo or Tyrone but get real will ya, Mickey Harte's men are a vastly superior team no matter what way you look at it
Even IF Mayo could match them in terms of quality, they're missing the one vital ingredient -Tyrone revel on the big day, Mayo implode
nrico2006 you said earlier 'Peter Donnelly from my own Tyrone - I dunno if you'd call him over-rated, as few actually rate him. But hes been laying about the Tyrone panel for a while and to be honest hes clean useless.'
You obviously havent been watching any of the sigerson games then, donnelly along with raymond mulgrew (another player quoted as over rated) have been immense for the poly! donnellys performance against DCU was awesome and he kept paddy keenan quiet all day and made a last minute block with his face when the poly were under pressure, inspirational! Mulgrews constant piss taking of Dublins Paul Casey was a joy to watch throughout the game!
That reminds me---most over rated...Paul Casey, how he makes the dublin team is beyond me, complete headless chicken!
reading through this cant believe gooch and stevie mac get a mention in the over-rated bit?????????
shane ryan is defo over-rated his run out in the aussie rules fiasco puts him in this catagory.
also "star2 Donaghy" the fact that a player has one good season and is nicknamed star says it all.
being from armagh you'd expect me to say oisin is under-rated all i know is we had him for a few training sessions last year and away from the hype and pressure of performing we got a glimpse of his skill and it is truely awsome repeat awsome i think he hit the big time too young and has developed a persona that puts people off.
Quote from: The Bottom Brick on February 22, 2007, 04:43:06 PM
;D I have no love for either Mayo or Tyrone but get real will ya, Mickey Harte's men are a vastly superior team no matter what way you look at it
Even IF Mayo could match them in terms of quality, they're missing the one vital ingredient -Tyrone revel on the big day, Mayo implode
No one denies Tyrone are in the top two with Kerry and any team that has won two of the last 4 titles is a serious outfit.
Looking at the relative merits of what
will happen if they meet you might benefit from looking at the recent history of this fixture in both the league and Championship. We have a very good record against this Tyrone team and while that would count for very little in our next meeting it counts for a lot more than this crap: "they're missing the one vital ingredient -Tyrone revel on the big day, Mayo implode"
Mayo have won 4 of their last 5 AI semi-finals since 1996. Whether teams underestimate us at that stage or whether we just know how to win semis I dont know. But I wouldn't be surprised to see us back in a final in September. That of course is where our problems start.
Hitzelsperger, you said
QuoteYou obviously havent been watching any of the sigerson games then, donnelly along with raymond mulgrew (another player quoted as over rated) have been immense for the poly! donnellys performance against DCU was awesome and he kept paddy keenan quiet all day and made a last minute block with his face when the poly were under pressure, inspirational! Mulgrews constant piss taking of Dublins Paul Casey was a joy to watch throughout the game!
I never said anything about Mulgrew, have been watching him for years and he was the main man in 2004 all ireland minor win. He has the potential to be a tyrone great. But as for Donnelly, I stand by what I said. Hes not up to the job, simple as that. Theres a big difference in playing sigerson and senior inter-county championship, and Peter Donnellys numerous weaknesses have been shown time and time again.
QuoteMayo have won 4 of their last 5 AI semi-finals since 1996
Congrats. They give out nice medals for winning semis don't they?