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QuoteNioclas O Braonain
Uachtaran CLCG
Croke Park
DUBLIN

7 February 2007

Dear Nickey

I am writing, as requested by the Tyrone County Committee, to put to you as Uachtaran, to An Coiste Bainisti  and to Central Council a summary of a discussion that was held at our monthly County Committee meeting last night.

That discussion concerned the GAA's evident moves towards "recognition" of the Gaelic Players' Association (GPA). Our County Committee is clear that no such "recognition" should be granted.

The main reasons for our clear and unequivocal stance are as follows:

1. Just who are the GPA and who do they represent? Just as importantly, who do they not represent? Last year this group made what we felt was an open attack on the Association by acting to delay an entire National Football League programme: the last time a similar exercise was attempted on the GAA was August 1918. In the same way we believe they have hijacked our official All-Stars scheme. This is not a group that the GAA should be giving recognition to.

2. The GPA already has the same representation at Central Council as our entire County, or indeed any other County or unit of the Association. Despite the reservations listed above, they already enjoy a privileged position. This gesture is generous recognition.

3. What exactly is the purpose of "recognition"? In our eyes it can only be for one of two reasons — (a) to give them a preferential status, or (b) to negotiate with them. As a County Committee we are opposed to both of these. The GAA is about equality for all its people, not preference for a tiny, tiny number. That's one of the things that makes us different: no matter how many people want to make the comparisons, we are simply not (and hopefully never will be) like other sports. And we have already well-established channels in place for negotiation and discussion. We have a Club-County-Province-National structure that's the envy of many. This letter is an example of that: grave concerns expressed by Tyrone Club delegates last night can be brought to the highest level of the GAA within hours.

4. If "recognition" is granted to the GPA, which self-appointed group will be next to seek a similar status? "Non-GPA" players? Managers? Referees? Supporters? County Chairs? Secretaries? Coaches? Physios? Fund-raisers? The list is endless. And if the principle of recognition is established for one group, how can it be denied to others?

5. If the GPA has "recognition", where then do County Committees stand in terms of a core part of their GAA business, their organisation of County teams? An officially-sanctioned route for by-passing County Committees will be in place, leaving them in the intolerable position of having the responsibility for something whilst the power to deal with it lies elsewhere.

I want to make it clear that in Tyrone we believe absolutely in looking after our players. We always have done and I think our track record in that area is as good as anybody's and maybe better than many. We are very proud of our players; respect what they do; resource them very, very well; and rejoice in the honour they have brought our County and its people. We believe that's the GAA way of doing things. And it's one we're committed to. But we're also committed to looking after all parts of the GAA in our County.

The GAA's great strength is in the delicate yet wholly powerful balance it maintains across all parts of the Association. Disturb that balance even slightly and you fatally weaken the whole structure. In that sense, if there's one great issue that we should look seriously at as an Association, it's the question of Volunteer Welfare. Lose that one and we won't have anything left to worry about.

Can I make it clear again that we discussed this issue openly and freely at our County Committee meeting last night. There was unanimous agreement with these sentiments. Because of that I would like you to share this letter with your colleagues on Management and table / circulate it at the next meeting of the Ard Comhairle.

Thank you again for your leadership across all our work.

Is mise,

P. O Dorchai

Cathaoirleach

Coiste Thir Eoghain

Sourced Tyronegaa.ie: http://www.tyronegaa.ie/countyboard/news/story.jsp?newsid=293 (http://www.tyronegaa.ie/countyboard/news/story.jsp?newsid=293)

See this off hoganstand


Tyrone County Board Chairman Pat Darcy has sent a letter to Croke Park outlining the county's objection to the GAA giving any recognition to the Gaelic Player's Association.

The issue of the GPA came up at the monthly meeting of the Tyrone County Committee and according to the letter dated 7 February; there was 'unanimous agreement' at the sentiments.

The GPA have been lobbying hard for official recognition over the last number of years and recent comments from GAA President Nickey Brennan have indicated that there could be an agreement between the two bodies over players grants issued by the government.

The O'Neill County Chairman has argued that it is vital that no individual body within the GAA, be it players, referees, officials or supporters should receive preferential status and that giving recognition to the GPA could 'fatally weaken the whole structure' of the GAA.

I wholeheartedly concur. Well said Tyrone. Once again you are a leading light among all counties in the GAA. Lets hope you are heeded.

Well said Tyrone. I'm not sure if this letter can achieve anything or has any official status and I'm not sure what sanction is required for a decision to 'recognise' the GPA. But I too would totally oppose the recognition of the GPA for any official purpose or their acceptance as players' representatives. As long as they confine themselves to representing only the 'elite' players, they represent the antithesis of the GAA ethos and its tradition of democracy.

The players are the most important group in the organisation. The players' representatives should be recognised and should have a seat on central council, should be consulted on all substantive matters, should be able to lobby for players' conditions and generally should have a much higher profile in the GAA's hierarchy.

But the GPA are NOT the players' representatives. They are the representatives of a self-appointed elite and their agenda is nothing less than the destruction of the amateur ethos and egalitarian structure of the GAA.

While Tyrone are probably right to have a go at the GPA, their position is weakened by their treatment of Brian McGuigan when he was injured and out of work. I'm sure the GPA will be quick to draw the parallel and claim Tyrone have an anti-player agenda.

this GPA is simply a further erosion of GAA values.  Its time to go back to basics..

Quote from: Hardy on February 15, 2007, 04:38:29 PM
But the GPA are NOT the players' representatives. They are the representatives of a self-appointed elite and their agenda is nothing less than the destruction of the amateur ethos and egalitarian structure of the GAA.

100% in agreement Hardy.

(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1121/krustysmoking5rp.jpg)

Quote from: Krusty the Klown
"I Heartily Endorse This Event or Product."

Also in 100% agreement with Hardy

I propose that we start a new player's organization, the GCPA, the Gaelic Club Players Association.
Sole objective is to force the county boards to give a clear, organised and regular playing season for the club players. If that happened then we could blow the GPA out of the water and the GAA would have to listen to the players as you could organise block voting on key issues, i.e. we would have real power.

Enough of this County is everything clubs are noting BS

Let's do it

It's difficult to disagree with the sentiments expressed in that letter; it becoming more and more evident that the GPA's aim is undoubtedly to look after the interests of the elite, and as such it indeed represents the antithesis of everything the GAA's about (as previously stated here).

Not sure if the treatment that Brian Mc Guigan was, or was not, in receipt of was anything like as bad as it was rather sensationally made out to be at the time in the press. Though I agree more could have been done.

If 'the GAA is about equality for all its' people',why did I, as a member of the GAA in Tyrone, not get the opportunity to contribute to this debate?Obviously some are'more equal than others'! I assume that Mr Darcy includes hurlers among 'our players', in that case his claim to have as good a 'track record in that area as anybody's' is ludicrous.

The GAA is not just about county players. It is a choice you make to play for your county and a privilege. Some are lucky enough to have been given the opinion to make that choice. If you don't want to play for your county - don't do it. There are loads of lads queuing up to.

The GAA is build on people, men and women, working to preserve our heritage and to give young people a healthily alternative to play stations, drink and a life based on selfishness. We give them a healthy option, teach them team play, sportsmanship and give them confidence in who they are and where they have come from.  Focusing on the elite players will destroy something that I believe is unique in modern sport.

The man who plays full forward for the county team is equal in any club to the lad who coaches the u14s, to the committee man, the grounds man, the referee, the lady who makes the sandwiches and the Minor hurler who trains all year but isn't good enough and only plays the last 10 minutes of every match. That's the sort or organisation we are. Long may it continue?

Maybe the time may come where TV dictates that we should split into 2 different association? One of elite athletes who will appear on Setanta on Saturday nights and another of the rest. The rump. The plain people of Ireland at sport. I know where I will be.  Coaching the u14s on Sunday morning or refereeing a minor match down the country. Not just because I'm not good enough to play at Croke Park, but because that's what I believe it's all about.

Quote from: bigpaul on February 15, 2007, 09:30:59 PM
If 'the GAA is about equality for all its' people',why did I, as a member of the GAA in Tyrone, not get the opportunity to contribute to this debate?Obviously some are'more equal than others'! I assume that Mr Darcy includes hurlers among 'our players', in that case his claim to have as good a 'track record in that area as anybody's' is ludicrous.

(a) Have you spoken to your club representative on the county board, (b) please tell us about the treatment of county hurling teams in Tyrone and what differences are made between them and the footballers.

Quote from: CSC on February 15, 2007, 07:23:45 PM
I propose that we start a new player's organization, the GCPA, the Gaelic Club Players Association.
Sole objective is to force the county boards to give a clear, organised and regular playing season for the club players. If that happened then we could blow the GPA out of the water and the GAA would have to listen to the players as you could organise block voting on key issues, i.e. we would have real power.

Enough of this County is everything clubs are noting BS

Let's do it

Now that is actually a great idea.  Seriously, you can be chairman, i'll be ceo, we'll take €100 from each player and pay ourselves nice salaries - my position would need about 200K, yours being more titular would get about 100K!!

QuoteIf 'the GAA is about equality for all its' people',why did I, as a member of the GAA in Tyrone, not get the opportunity to contribute to this debate?Obviously some are'more equal than others'! I assume that Mr Darcy includes hurlers among 'our players', in that case his claim to have as good a 'track record in that area as anybody's' is ludicrous.

You did. I am sure your Club had an AGM recently. At that AGM your Club would've appointed a County board representative who is the eyes, ears and mouth for your Club at County level.

Now that you have seen the opinion of Pat Darcy, who has spoken for the County that democratically elected him, you still have a voice.

Go to your next Club meeting.
Raise a motion of no confidence in your County chairman.
If your Club passes the motion, your Club representative will take it to the next County meeting.
If the motion of no confidence fails, the democracy in the County suggests that most agree with the stance of the chair.

QuoteThe GAA is build on people, men and women, working to preserve our heritage and to give young people a healthily alternative to play stations, drink and a life based on selfishness.

When I first read that I thought we were giving an alternative to the stations!

Quote from: realredhandfan on February 15, 2007, 04:51:15 PM
this GPA is simply a further erosion of GAA values.  Its time to go back to basics..

And basics would mean ?
Rule 42 ?
Rule 21 ?
Screwing over the players?

Quote from: Hardy on February 15, 2007, 04:38:29 PM
their agenda is nothing less than the destruction of the amateur ethos and egalitarian structure of the GAA.

That is an opinion based on assumption and chinese whispers.

That letter is an embarrassment to all concerned and will be the hilarious subject matter of humorous emails in 5 years time.

The players are as entitled to a voice as anyone else and as with any union, they are entitled to maximise their influence as a group.

anyone who believes the gpa don't represent county footballers has their head in the sand.

QuoteThe players are as entitled to a voice as anyone else and as with any union, they are entitled to maximise their influence as a group.

They do. The vote at the AGMs like the rest of us.

In case you are unaware, the EU still allows for like minded "workers" (ie those who bring in the revenue) to form a union for their own purposes. what next? ban the postman's union because they've negotiated better work conditions than your "outsiders looking in" union?

Quotethe EU still allows for like minded "workers" (ie those who bring in the revenue)

Workers! The players do a fantastic job, but they cannot be clasified any more as workers as you or I. I am not going to get into a 'the man who coaches the U10s rant', but the players might be the focal point of the game, but they are not the foundations. The revenue only comes in because people build the forum to let them display their wares.

Anyhow..what's money got to do with it?

so players shouldn't be allowed a union?

so revenue shouldn't be an issue for any part of the association?

If thats the case, why don't the GAA let everyone in free to every match, be it your club, mine or croke park?

Quote from: Uladh on February 15, 2007, 10:48:08 PM
The players are as entitled to a voice as anyone else and as with any union, they are entitled to maximise their influence as a group.

anyone who believes the gpa don't represent county footballers has their head in the sand.

I'm pretty pro pay for play and players rights etc Uladh, but I don't think that county footballers are this elite group totally disparate from club footballers - i think that much of what the gpa do is embarrassing, confrontational and counterproductive.  They have a massive image problem, look at the comments on here, as you can see from another thread, there are quite a few ex-county (maybe current) players who post here, you are one of the few who ever stand up for them.

QuoteIf thats the case, why don't the GAA let everyone in free to every match, be it your club, mine or croke park?

The money goes back into the food chain, to insure players, build the facilities of the tomorrow, and cover the cost of equipment etc etc.

Quoteso players shouldn't be allowed a union?

I can't say they shouldn't be allowed one, but shouldn't the coaches have one too? or what about the water carriers, the physios, the chairman, the PROs, the registrars, the grass cutters? What makes the players better or different than those group?

Quote from: Norf Tyrone on February 15, 2007, 10:23:46 PM

QuoteIf 'the GAA is about equality for all its' people',why did I, as a member of the GAA in Tyrone, not get the opportunity to contribute to this debate?Obviously some are'more equal than others'! I assume that Mr Darcy includes hurlers among 'our players', in that case his claim to have as good a 'track record in that area as anybody's' is ludicrous.

You did. I am sure your Club had an AGM recently. At that AGM your Club would've appointed a County board representative who is the eyes, ears and mouth for your Club at County level.

Now that you have seen the opinion of Pat Darcy, who has spoken for the County that democratically elected him, you still have a voice.

Go to your next Club meeting.
Raise a motion of no confidence in your County chairman.
If your Club passes the motion, your Club representative will take it to the next County meeting.
If the motion of no confidence fails, the democracy in the County suggests that most agree with the stance of the chair.

The GPA were n't raised as an issue at the AGM,nor were there any motions on the GPA discussed,yet the T. C. B. has gone on record with a policy on the matter! Not a demonstration of democracy by any standards that I recognise.I cannot be  considered to be on an equal footing to anyone who had the opportunity to  attend that meeting!The letter states that there was 'unaminous agreement' at the meeting,what does that mean ? Was there a vote taken on a specific motion,if so ,what was the wording of the motion? If not,did everyone speak?

On the matter of the Tyrone Hurlers,they felt the need to seek assistance from the GPA!

Quote from: Norf Tyrone on February 15, 2007, 11:15:16 PM

QuoteIf thats the case, why don't the GAA let everyone in free to every match, be it your club, mine or croke park?

The money goes back into the food chain, to insure players, build the facilities of the tomorrow, and cover the cost of equipment etc etc.

Quoteso players shouldn't be allowed a union?

I can't say they shouldn't be allowed one, but shouldn't the coaches have one too? or what about the water carriers, the physios, the chairman, the PROs, the registrars, the grass cutters? What makes the players better or different than those group?

have any of the other groups you mentioned felt so frustrated at the bad treatment they percieve they get that they felt their only option was to form a union?

croke park ballsed this up big time by not meeting players halfway 10 years ago. they created the millitancy by treating the players like dung.

Quote from: bigpaul on February 15, 2007, 11:29:24 PM

Quote from: Norf Tyrone on February 15, 2007, 10:23:46 PM

QuoteIf 'the GAA is about equality for all its' people',why did I, as a member of the GAA in Tyrone, not get the opportunity to contribute to this debate?Obviously some are'more equal than others'! I assume that Mr Darcy includes hurlers among 'our players', in that case his claim to have as good a 'track record in that area as anybody's' is ludicrous.

You did. I am sure your Club had an AGM recently. At that AGM your Club would've appointed a County board representative who is the eyes, ears and mouth for your Club at County level.

Now that you have seen the opinion of Pat Darcy, who has spoken for the County that democratically elected him, you still have a voice.

Go to your next Club meeting.
Raise a motion of no confidence in your County chairman.
If your Club passes the motion, your Club representative will take it to the next County meeting.
If the motion of no confidence fails, the democracy in the County suggests that most agree with the stance of the chair.

The GPA were n't raised as an issue at the AGM,nor were there any motions on the GPA discussed,yet the T. C. B. has gone on record with a policy on the matter! Not a demonstration of democracy by any standards that I recognise.I cannot be  considered to be on an equal footing to anyone who had the opportunity to  attend that meeting!The letter states that there was 'unaminous agreement' at the meeting,what does that mean ? Was there a vote taken on a specific motion,if so ,what was the wording of the motion? If not,did everyone speak?

On the matter of the Tyrone Hurlers,they felt the need to seek assistance from the GPA!

If you are a member of your local club (which I'm sure you are) surely you would have had a chance to put forward a motion at your AGM? If not, what's the reason why? I only speak on the case that in our own AGM, any member can put forward a motion to our club. Also, do you seriously expect any GAA member in Tyrone should have the right to attend a county board meeting? A venue that would potentially hold thousands would be needed to accommodate that! Every club in the county is represented at a county board meeting through their delegate, maybe you should speak to your own so they can tell you what went down at that meeting.

I remember the matter involving the county hurlers and the GPA getting involved, it was down to a monumental c**k-up in communication and a fairly anal referee which ended up being played on a pitch that not too long beforehand was considered good enough for the senior footballers to play a competitive match on. I'm sure the GPA would have only been delighted to help out as it was a chink of bright publicity that they could try and get their hands on so they could boast about it in their press releases. Joe Brolly summed it up right when he said that the GPA in general don't give a damn about hurlers from Mayo, and for that matter other counties who aren't competing in the McCarthy Cup.

QuoteThe GPA were n't raised as an issue at the AGM,nor were there any motions on the GPA discussed,yet the T. C. B. has gone on record with a policy on the matter! Not a demonstration of democracy by any standards that I recognise.I cannot be  considered to be on an equal footing to anyone who had the opportunity to  attend that meeting!The letter states that there was 'unaminous agreement' at the meeting,what does that mean ? Was there a vote taken on a specific motion,if so ,what was the wording of the motion? If not,did everyone speak?

Now the way I understand it, you might be in agreement with me here. The GPA are not recognised by Croke Park to date, but it looked as if they were to be given some form of recognition. The Tyrone County board realised this and made their feelings known. As you stated the issue re the GPA wasn't raised at any AGM (Club, County or National), so maybe the Tyrone board are ensuring that it goes no further withoudue discussion.

I didn't feel any need to propose a motion concerning the GPA, nor was there any mention of one being on the Clar for the County Convention.Therefore, the vast majority of GAA members in Tyrone were denied any opportunity to discuss a matter of policy!The  accusation that is most often levelled at the GPA is that of 'elitism',that was a pretty elite gathering when it was decided to formulate a policy without prior notice and go public with it!

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 15, 2007, 11:55:54 PM
I remember the matter involving the county hurlers and the GPA getting involved, it was down to a monumental c**k-up in communication and a fairly anal referee which ended up being played on a pitch that not too long beforehand was considered good enough for the senior footballers to play a competitive match on. I'm sure the GPA would have only been delighted to help out as it was a chink of bright publicity that they could try and get their hands on so they could boast about it in their press releases. Joe Brolly summed it up right when he said that the GPA in general don't give a damn about hurlers from Mayo, and for that matter other counties who aren't competing in the McCarthy Cup.

They went on record afterwards thanking the GPA for their involvement and Thomas Colton, I think it was, wrote to the Tyrone Times taking Kevin Hughes to task on the matter,saying that they were banging their heads against a brick wall until the GPA came on board.
As for Joe,he has never explained why he felt the need to attend the inaugural meeting,were there issues that needed to be addressed?If there were, what were they,have they since been addressed or was he just wrong in his assessment at that time?

Quote from: bigpaul on February 16, 2007, 12:05:54 AM
I didn't feel any need to propose a motion concerning the GPA

So, you couldn't be arsed then, even if you feel strongly now?

QuoteThe  accusation that is most often levelled at the GPA is that of 'elitism',that was a pretty elite gathering when it was decided to formulate a policy without prior notice and go public with it!

The "elite" gathering was one that apart from the executive committee members were all elected by ordinary club members in Tyrone to represent them. It may have been the case that a delegate may have raised the issue in question with a discussion and a show of hands taken on the matter that night. Again, ask your club delegate what went on and if he was actually part of the unanimous group.

And before you ask, no I usually wouldn't stand up for anyone from T***yreagh!

Quote from: bigpaul on February 16, 2007, 12:19:30 AM

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 15, 2007, 11:55:54 PM
I remember the matter involving the county hurlers and the GPA getting involved, it was down to a monumental c**k-up in communication and a fairly anal referee which ended up being played on a pitch that not too long beforehand was considered good enough for the senior footballers to play a competitive match on. I'm sure the GPA would have only been delighted to help out as it was a chink of bright publicity that they could try and get their hands on so they could boast about it in their press releases. Joe Brolly summed it up right when he said that the GPA in general don't give a damn about hurlers from Mayo, and for that matter other counties who aren't competing in the McCarthy Cup.

They went on record afterwards thanking the GPA for their involvement and Thomas Colton, I think it was, wrote to the Tyrone Times taking Kevin Hughes to task on the matter,saying that they were banging their heads against a brick wall until the GPA came on board.
As for Joe,he has never explained why he felt the need to attend the inaugural meeting,were there issues that needed to be addressed?If there were, what were they,have they since been addressed or was he just wrong in his assessment at that time?

It doesn't really argue my point in that the GPA were only too happy to help out with the Tyrone hurling squad for their own agenda more than anything else. Re: Joe Brolly, you'll need to ask him. I remember when the GPA was first founded there was a general public "alrightedness" to it, maybe Joe saw something he didn't like?

What's with the comment about not being arsed? There was no discussion on the matter,no indication that the T.C.B. were about to formulate a policy, and therefore no indication that I or any other member would need to take pre-emptive action to ensure our club delegate would be armed with a mandate when the policy was being formulated!

Is it not a case of that when the County Board are elected you are essentially giving them veto to act on your behalf.

Much as in the same way as when you elect a politician he doesn't come and check with you over every policy.

Quote from: bigpaul on February 16, 2007, 12:30:54 AM
What's with the comment about not being arsed? There was no discussion on the matter,no indication that the T.C.B. were about to formulate a policy, and therefore no indication that I or any other member would need to take pre-emptive action to ensure our club delegate would be armed with a mandate when the policy was being formulated!

I must admit the statement took me by surprise as I wasn't expecting anything about the GPA, though it's well known for quite some time what the stance of the Tyrone County Board is with regards to them. All I'm saying is that if you felt strongly that the GPA was beneficial to the county hurlers and that they could help do more for them, why not get this recognised by your club? I don't think you'll find the answers here on a discussion board I'm afraid.

KIDDO (Sludden?), Conway may have been there as a proxy on behalf of his club, or was he actually elected by his club, bearing in mind that most clubs hadn't elected their delagate at the county convention and the February meeting would have been the first meeting for new board members? However if he was there and speaking without a mandate, questions do need to be asked. I believe the minutes will be printed for the April meeting late next month which should answer this.

http://tyrone.servasport.com/countyboard/subcommittees/prmarketing/ (http://tyrone.servasport.com/countyboard/subcommittees/prmarketing/)

Does this help?

Conway on the night in question , was not present to give a pr and marketing report .

The whole point regarding the hurlers is that the GPA were a help,you are automatically presuming that they had an ulterior motive.I don't think any of us can suppose to know anyone's motives beyond their public pronouncements!
County Board representatives are elected to represent the interests of their members.When a matter arises that  involves the day to day running of the Board then it is only natural that they should vote in accordance with their club's wishes on the matter.The problem arises when a County Board meeting takes it on itself to formulate a new policy without delegates referring back to their club for direction on the matter.As I stated originally,Pat Darcy is making a mockery of the word 'equality' when he asserts that I am equal to anyone who attended that meeting!

Fionntamhnach,if the Tyrone County Board had sent a letter to Croke Park in support of the GPA,would you think that the procedures followed were acceptable?

Quote from: Uladh on February 15, 2007, 10:48:08 PM

Quote from: Hardy on February 15, 2007, 04:38:29 PM
their agenda is nothing less than the destruction of the amateur ethos and egalitarian structure of the GAA.

That is an opinion based on assumption and chinese whispers.

Uladh – it's not. It's based on the repeated calls from the GPA for elite players to be paid, while at the same time prefacing almost every statement with "we don't want pay for play". What was the infamous €127 a week (for county players only), if not pay for play? What was the GPA chairman talking about when he went inadvertently off message and used the 'p' word? What's professionalism and pay-for-play (for the elite few) if not the destruction of the amateur ethos and egalitarian structure of the GAA?

QuoteThe players are as entitled to a voice as anyone else and as with any union, they are entitled to maximise their influence as a group.

I agree (allowing a loose interpretation of the word 'union', as unions usually represent employees). But the GPA doesn't represent 'THE players'. It represents some of the players.

Quoteanyone who believes the gpa don't represent county footballers has their head in he sand.

Nobody believes that. That in fact is the problem The GPA represents ONLY county players (but not all county players).

The simple fact is that the GPA represents the grab-what-you-can mentality of a greedy few, who see themselves as possessing a powerful lever that they're prepared to use to prise an advantage for themselves, to the detriment of the organisation that practically all other members serve as volunteers. They've said themselves that they see the amount of money the GAA generates and have decided "we want some of that". They are the only group in the GAA who have decided to organise themselves to grab some of the organisation's money for themselves. Who is asking where that money will be diverted from? What programmes will be cut or scrapped? Which of the GAA's community activities will suffer because these greedy people (who are the ones who already benefit most from their membership of the GAA) want cash in their own back pockets?

The plain fact is that the GPA people represent the worst form of opportunism and gombeenism and are openly challenging the principles of the organisation they would happily destroy for the sake of an extra few bob for themselves.

The referees could just as easily decide that the games can't go on without them and start demanding 'pay for refereeing'. Likewise for all the other volunteers. But they'd be wrong. And, as has been said many times here, the GPA people are wrong in their estimate of their own power. Ultimately, their only weapon is withdrawal from county teams. Who will give a toss, other than themselves? That's the point at which they will see how useless their weapon is, as the throngs of lads who would die to play for their county queue up to take the places of those who have insulted them by excluding them from their elite club.

Thanks for putting so eloquently what I'm thinking Hardy on the couple of occasions you have posted on this thread. More power to you.

I heard Donal O'Neill (another - "there's nothing in it for me" merchant like Dessie) on Newstalk this morning on about how the grants for GAA players would"underpin the amateur ethos"!!! FFS you couldn't make it up.

I hope other county boards have the balls to come out in support of Tyrone.

 Firstlly I will declare as I have done before that I am not for 'pay for play', not for the reasons that Hardy so eloquently outlined above, but because the Gaa could never sustain it and the game as we know it would be destroyed.

That said if the Government and the GPA had agreed a grant scheme that would be zero cost to the Gaa and it offered the scope to tie the GPA into an agreement not looking for pay for play, why not go ahead? It would cost the Gaa nothing, the players would be happy and the government would be seen as the great arbitrators. Win win.

Except for the clubs of course. Speaking as a former club player I see this argument as hypocritical. If the GPA is seen as being greedy then you can't add the club player to the cause because you are guilty of the same crime.

If you are against pay in the Gaa fine, I can respect that but it should apply across the board. We have a number of players who are full time Gaa professionals at the moment and that is befoe we get onto managers. Attacking the players for being greedy without mentioning the managers who always seem to be in the hunt for a paid job is also hypocritical.

Consider the paid managers included, then.

My job involves me every day mediating between frictioned parties and i have to have the ability to see arguments from every angle. This applies particularly to the GPA as i believe strongly that GAA members consistently fail the "in your shoes" test with regard to county players.

Quote from: Hardy on February 16, 2007, 09:04:13 AM

Uladh – it's not. It's based on the repeated calls from the GPA for elite players to be paid, while at the same time prefacing almost every statement with "we don't want pay for play". What was the infamous €127 a week (for county players only), if not pay for play? What was the GPA chairman talking about when he went inadvertently off message and used the 'p' word? What's professionalism and pay-for-play (for the elite few) if not the destruction of the amateur ethos and egalitarian structure of the GAA?

The only occasion i can remember any of them calling for pay for play was the one you mentioned. can you document these "repeated calls?"

If you know the history of the GPA's development, you will know that it was the GAA who elevated intercounty players to "elite" status and while its obviously an anomoly, A county players union is the only feasible way for them to have started. the seperating criteria between club and county players dictates that. personally i think the GPA missed a trick by not just allowing club players to sign up as associate or second tier members, even if were just a token gesture.

Again Hardy, you make the point so well. The GAA is made up of 99% of people who share these same views and who understand the importance of holding onto them.

Yes muppet there are paid managers, there are misguided businessmen providing salaries to certain county players. The GAA should be addressing these issues and making more noise about how these activities are eroding the core ethos of the orginisation. It is also very naive of you to think that grant scheme would keep the GPA happy for long. It will set a legal precedent of players getting financially rewarded for representing their couinty and leave the door open for them to the gain even more in the future.  The fact that the GAA mightn't be paying for it is irrelevant. The grant scheme is pay for play.
You're also implying that you would be for "pay for play" IF the GAA could afford it? I'm assuming you're talking solely about the financial price rather than the cultural price. I find this an unbelieveable stance when you consider the points Hardy has just made.
And finally, if the GPA also represented club players then it would not be what it is today....i.e. a financially motivated orginisation concerned only in persuing the interests of an elite few. So the crime would not be commited if club players were involved.

Quote from: Uladh on February 16, 2007, 10:15:07 AM
personally i think the GPA missed a trick by not just allowing club players to sign up as associate or second tier members, even if were just a token gesture.

And if the GPA did allow it purely as a token gesture Uladh, how would it benefit the GPA? You're almost implying they could have USED the club players membership to bolster their perceived repectability amongst the GAA population to then use this position to fulfil their real agenda? ???

I think Sean and his Tyrone GPA cohorts are afraid of missing out on any potential windfall if the GPA were to believe Darcy's initial claims!

I think all and sundry can understand the existence of a Players' Union and the recent McGuigan issue (whether it's accurate or not) just magnifies the need for one. However, the GPA would need to repackage itself. Farrell's style of leadership and cloudy dialogue has left Joe Public rather suspicious of its ultimate aims and raison d'etre.

Exactly O'Neill. This grants thing for instance - do the membership not get to have a say about this? What exactly are we talking about? No-one seems to know. If there's nothing to hide then out with the details. Lets see how paying grants to elite players "underpins the amateur ethos" Donal.

I remember posting this response to this discussion a while back and in particular to Uladh's assertion that you can support county player "welfare" (my words) and be a hard working club worker.
The sentiments haven't changed and apologies Uladh for regurgitating it. It is not an attack on your beliefs (everyone is entitled to opionions) but was merely an opinion also.
It was also writen in response to the amazing statistic that only 1.2% of the GAA may benefit from such a fundamental change to the way the organisation operates. 

Uladh your current cv once stated that you were:

currently an underage manager
assistant on another underage team
assistant on a reserve team
full committee member
finance committee member
voluntary bar shifts
registrar.

and a piss poor player.


Having read this and examining the set up within my own club I am drawn towards a comparison between the current GPA saga and George Orwell's Animal Farm.

What you and the vast majority of our volunteers are potentially turning into are the old work horses, Boxer and Clover while the GPA, and in particular Mr Farrell, are turning into the pigs and in particular Napolean.

The GPA is quite good at convincing each other that collectivism is a good idea.
Orwell also supported this contention when he said, "Their (pigs) most faithful disciples were the two carthorses, Boxer and Clover.  Those two had great difficulty in thinking anything out for themselves, but having once accepted the pigs as their teachers, they absorbed everything that they were told, and passed it on to the other animals by simple arguments."

Dessie and his comrades are attempting to take over the farm and while they may argue they have the collective interests of their members at heart, I cannot but help recall the initial 7 commandments being abridged for the last time to simply read, "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."

And that is the whole crux of the matter. Are some people in the GAA more equal than others?
To say yes, in my opinion is so wrong and so dangerous.

Dessie Farrell would try and convince you otherwise but as Squealer the other pig enthusiastically pointed out, "Do not imagine, comrades, that leadership is a pleasure.   On the contrary, it is a deep and heavy responsibility.  No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal.  He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves.    But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"

I'll tell you where we will be. We will be in the situation whereby the U-14 player, the senior player, the youth manager, the man who cuts the crass, the lady who makes the tea, the 98.8% of us who keep the farm working will be looking in through the window of the farm house at the more equal 1.2% and thinking, "that can't be right"

And if the rest of us mere mortal animals, not blessed with the extra special skills and cunning of the pigs, look in through that window and do not like what we see are we going to be naïve enough to keep working.
I know what I will be doing.

And if this sounds hysterical then just remember that the importance of the proletariat is shown when Boxer suddenly falls and there is suddenly a drastic decrease in work productivity.  But still he is taken for granted by the pigs, who send him away in a glue truck. 
I listen to the demands and arguments put forward by Napoleon, sorry Farrell and while I agree that the farm may not be perfect and that the animals could be treated better, the underlying motive of the leaders of the revolt is greed and self-interest.

Yes, they may get a hearing because their aims and motives may sound reasonable and yes they may better the lot of their 1.2% of members but I will leave the last word to Orwell himself who writes

"Somehow it seemed as though the farm had grown richer without making the animals themselves any richer— except, of course, for the pigs and the dogs."

Oh, and another thing. I read with interest Sean Cavanagh's daming criticism of the Tyrone County board's stance and it led me to wonder, outside of their footballing contribution to the county, how much do these players put back into their own clubs.
And before anyone suggests that I am accusing Sean of doing nothing for the Moy, I am not because I genuinely don't know.
I would be interested though for some of our Moy posters to enlighten me.

In fact of the current Tyrone squad, it would be interesting to do a little research here and find out how many players are actively involved in any small or big way with promoting or working within their clubs (apart from playing of course).
Of the top of my head, I am aware of the good work that high profile players such as Ryan McMenamin, Brian Dooher and Stephen O'Neill do. But what about the rest?

Off on a further tangent, I hear Stephen O'Neill is now preaching from the pulpit. A Clonoe mass-goer told me he was hired to lecture the youth of the parish on clean-living.

Quote from: winghalfun on February 16, 2007, 11:27:11 AM
Oh, and another thing. I read with interest Sean Cavanagh's daming criticism of the Tyrone County board's stance and it led me to wonder, outside of their footballing contribution to the county, how much do these players put back into their own clubs.
And before anyone suggests that I am accusing Sean of doing nothing for the Moy, I am not because I genuinely don't know.
I would be interested though for some of our Moy posters to enlighten me.

In fact of the current Tyrone squad, it would be interesting to do a little research here and find out how many players are actively involved in any small or big way with promoting or working within their clubs (apart from playing of course).
Of the top of my head, I am aware of the good work that high profile players such as Ryan McMenamin, Brian Dooher and Stephen O'Neill do. But what about the rest?

Brian McGuigan plays a very active role in our club and gives as much time as physically possible. Never misses training or games (of any type including challenge) and trains one of the underage teams.

When the GPA was first formed there was a need. Players were not getting looked very well and I think the vast majority of us will agree that they needed better treatment. They are now alot better treated and I believe that most would say that with regards gear, medical treatment and meals after training most would be happy.
However over recent times the GPA has morphed into a completely different organisation. They continue to push for monetary reward for the players and while they dress it up as compensation or tax incentives or so on it certainly appears to the average joe public that they want complete pay for play. It always baffled me that the GPA have not demanded a shorter inter county season for their 'hard done by over trained players' - perhaps it is because if the season was shorter their argument for financially rewarding players would lose some of its clout.
It appears to me that there is a small percentage of players - mostly past players - who are driving the agenda of the GPA. I think that most of the inter county players are a little apathetic towards the whole thing.

On another point I find it difficult to comprehend the head the sand approach taken by some posters. They accuse the GPA of chipping away at the amatuer ethos but I would contend that they were not the first to take the chisel in hand. I wonder how many posters on here have sat in a committee room and agreed to the payment - above expenses - for a manager. If you have then I venture that you too have chipped away at the amatuer ethos.
Once the principal was conceded and poeple turned a blind eye to payment of managers it was the slippery slope. I would say that at least 75% of counties and clubs have paid a manager at some stage. The argument that players should not get paid because it cannot be sustained should not be used. Players should not be paid because we are amatuer. This should extend to managers and trainers who are making second incomes from the GAA.

QuoteIt is also very naive of you to think that grant scheme would keep the GPA happy for long. It will set a legal precedent of players getting financially rewarded for representing their couinty and leave the door open for them to the gain even more in the future.  

Skull that is merely your opinion, not a fact so don't present it as absolute.

QuoteYou're also implying that you would be for "pay for play" IF the GAA could afford it? I'm assuming you're talking solely about the financial price rather than the cultural price. I find this an unbelieveable stance when you consider the points Hardy has just made.

I didn't imply the former, your middle assumption is wrong and therefore it is not so difficult to see why you find it unbelievable.

To say I am against pay for play because the Gaa couldn't afford it and it would destroy the game does not imply that I would be for it if they could afford it.  

Quote from: ONeill on February 16, 2007, 11:40:00 AM
me he was hired to lecture the youth of the parish on clean-living.

Hired!! Did this involve some financial reward?

Expect to see Winghalfun post in the Independent or the likes in the near future

Quote from: muppet on February 16, 2007, 12:01:18 PM

QuoteIt is also very naive of you to think that grant scheme would keep the GPA happy for long. It will set a legal precedent of players getting financially rewarded for representing their couinty and leave the door open for them to the gain even more in the future.  

Skull that is merely your opinion, not a fact so don't present it as absolute.

Well you cannot blame me for holding such an opinion muppet when the GPA is as clandestine as it is. I can only read between the lines. I don't think I'm far off the mark  

Quote from: muppet on February 16, 2007, 12:01:18 PM

QuoteYou're also implying that you would be for "pay for play" IF the GAA could afford it? I'm assuming you're talking solely about the financial price rather than the cultural price. I find this an unbelieveable stance when you consider the points Hardy has just made.

I didn't imply the former, your middle assumption is wrong and therefore it is not so difficult to see why you find it unbelievable.

To say I am against pay for play because the Gaa couldn't afford it and it would destroy the game does not imply that I would be for it if they could afford it.  

Would you mind clarifying it me me then? Hardy as you said yourself eloquently put forward the deep seated ethical reasoning as to why we should not be supporting "pay for play". You then stated.....

Quote from: muppet on February 16, 2007, 09:37:55 AM
Firstlly I will declare as I have done before that I am not for 'pay for play', not for the reasons that Hardy so eloquently outlined above, but because the Gaa could never sustain it and the game as we know it would be destroyed.

What other way am I meant to interpret what you have said when I take into consideration that your reason for not supporting pay for play doesn't line up with Hardy's view?

agreed , a post of supreme quality.

QuoteWell you cannot blame me for holding such an opinion muppet when the GPA is as clandestine as it is.

Skull we are all entitled to our opinions. Its this that I object to ' It will set a legal precedent of players getting financially rewarded ' . That is not a fact but merely opinion. I don't see how at all it will set a legal precedent seeing as the Gaa wouldn't be paying them. Like I said before the Gaa/Government can write whatever they want into the agreement which might end this sorry mess.

Skull the game would be destroyed because the counties with the most money would 'buy' the best players. In a few years we would end up with maybe 6-8 tops teams and a competiton where they would play each other all the time as demanded by those paying the bills, i.e. TV and sponsors. That is why I am against pay for play, it would destroy the game regardless of whether the Gaa can pay or not.

My problem is thus. If the members want an amateur association that is fine. Let's have a vote and if Amateurism is the outcome then we give the paid managers, paid players and paid officers 6 months to wean themselves of the money. All expenses should cease. At the moment we are a long way from being amateur and the romantic notions of our association in the posts above, while tear jerking, are just blinkered.

QuoteOf the top of my head, I am aware of the good work that high profile players such as Ryan McMenamin, Brian Dooher and Stephen O'Neill do. But what about the rest?

Are you serious? Do you think Sean Kavanagh is one of the finest footballers in the country by chance? I'd wager the man eats drinks and sleeps Gaa as do most county players. Considering the physical abuse they go through not to mention the verbal abuse from two-faced supporters, I wonder why they bother.

Quote from: bigpaul on February 16, 2007, 12:53:57 AM
Fionntamhnach,if the Tyrone County Board had sent a letter to Croke Park in support of the GPA,would you think that the procedures followed were acceptable?

If they were followed correctly, then yes. I have only ever been to one county meeting (and what a county meeting it was!) but there are matters that are brought up at the time and are then decided on if they don't require direct consultation with clubs set on in the regulations. It happens quite often. In your scenario, I wouldn't like it, but I'd recognise that it was a body made up from the membership in Tyrone that would sanction it. I wasn't terribly pleased to see the football leagues revert back to 3x16 but I accept that's democracy. It's a bitch, eh? But we can't pick and choose what we like, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

QuoteBut the GPA lashed back last night, saying "perhaps the letter was an attempt to divert attention from a number of on-going player welfare issues in their own county."

Maybe the GPA can expand on what these issues are? The Brian McGuigan case excluded, just what are they? Or is it a fancy soundbite?

I can safely say that as someone who was formerly involved in the Vocational Schools setup, anything that was needed from the county board was pretty much taken care of, though nothing over the top was asked for.

QuoteAre you serious? Do you think Sean Kavanagh is one of the finest footballers in the country by chance?

No, not by chance, but by a combination of a strong physical gene pool, god given talent, good coaching, encouragement, love of the game, a desire to win, and yes, discipline.
Being inch eye to a grasshopper, shortsighted and unable to take the lid of a can of Mr. Muscle, the strong physical gene pool and god given talent would probably precluded me from ever lining out in Croke Park.
Nonetheless, with some good coaching, encouragement, a love of the game and discipline I can but dream.

QuoteI'd wager the man eats drinks and sleeps Gaa as do most county players.

Granted, but within what parameters. The dream of the roar of the crowd on All-Ireland final day or the delight on the face of a 10 year old as he wins his first blitz medal.

QuoteConsidering the physical abuse they go through not to mention the verbal abuse from two-faced supporters, I wonder why they bother

The dream of that All-Ireland becoming a reality, a few sun kissed holidays abroad, personal adulation, expert physios, use of top facilities, a sports wardbrobe the envy of any asbo spiv and now maybe a few euro.

And by the way, the above is not directed at Sean personally but is a generalised response to the notion of the poor hard done by county player.

A very interesting thread - one that goes to the very heart of our ethos.

For the next few hours, what about a quick straw poll.

Who DESERVES the most respect.

A. The voluntary hard working club member, with a variety of roles ranging from juvenile coaching. fundraising, cutting the grass, sitting on the committee, providing transport to the matches, washing the kit etc, etc, etc.( Every club has this type)      or

B. The county panellist numbered somewhere from 1 - 32.

Sorry, but for me its a no brainer. The most important component will be Type A. Without him/her, there will be no Type B.

Look after players welfare Ok, but they must realise they are not, by any stretch, the most important component. Lets put it this way, the association will always cope without the "elite" - but they would not cope without the thousands of Type A across the land who rarely get as much as a decent thank you for their efforts.

QuoteBut the GPA lashed back last night, saying "perhaps the letter was an attempt to divert attention from a number of on-going player welfare issues in their own county."

Brian McGuigan was injured playing for Ardboe. Any insurance claims with regard to medical bills & loss of earnings will have been dealt with by the Ardboe Committee rather than the Tyrone County Board.

Brian is a member of the GPA and any failings with regard to the players welfare would reflect on them as much as the County Board.

Quote from: muppet on February 16, 2007, 01:34:05 PM

QuoteWell you cannot blame me for holding such an opinion muppet when the GPA is as clandestine as it is.

Skull we are all entitled to our opinions. Its this that I object to ' It will set a legal precedent of players getting financially rewarded ' . That is not a fact but merely opinion. I don't see how at all it will set a legal precedent seeing as the Gaa wouldn't be paying them. Like I said before the Gaa/Government can write whatever they want into the agreement which might end this sorry mess.

I have stated that the players would get financially rewarded for playing Gaelic Games. It doesn't matter whether the money is coming from the Government through a grants scheme or direct from the GAA, they are still getting paid....that would be a fact

Quote from: muppet on February 16, 2007, 01:34:05 PM
Skull the game would be destroyed because the counties with the most money would 'buy' the best players. In a few years we would end up with maybe 6-8 tops teams and a competiton where they would play each other all the time as demanded by those paying the bills, i.e. TV and sponsors. That is why I am against pay for play, it would destroy the game regardless of whether the Gaa can pay or not.

OK muppet fair enough, but I would have thought that we all should be trying to hold up the more nobler reasons before we would get down to that level in the argument of pay for play.

Quote from: muppet on February 16, 2007, 01:34:05 PM
My problem is thus. If the members want an amateur association that is fine. Let's have a vote and if Amateurism is the outcome then we give the paid managers, paid players and paid officers 6 months to wean themselves of the money. All expenses should cease. At the moment we are a long way from being amateur and the romantic notions of our association in the posts above, while tear jerking, are just blinkered.

I totally agree that the whole issue of payment across the board needs addressing, particularly managers and players. Harder to do though if it's not through official channels

Quote from: Windmill abu on February 16, 2007, 02:24:19 PM

QuoteBut the GPA lashed back last night, saying "perhaps the letter was an attempt to divert attention from a number of on-going player welfare issues in their own county."

Brian McGuigan was injured playing for Ardboe. Any insurance claims with regard to medical bills & loss of earnings will have been dealt with by the Ardboe Committee rather than the Tyrone County Board.

Brian is a member of the GPA and any failings with regard to the players welfare would reflect on them as much as the County Board.

Good point. Though considering his role for the county team, it surely would not have taken much for the county board to make sure that cover for such monies could be covered by them to a certain extent which could then be reclaimed through insurance, as most players can tell you it is frustrating to deal with.

Was there a dispute about players not being able to get allocated tickets for the NFL game in Croke Park with Dublin?
Also, what do you make of Farrells comments in IN: "In an amatuer association, such as we are, where there is no money splashing about, the real currency, if you like, is power".

Quote from: ExiledGael on February 16, 2007, 02:31:54 PM
Was there a dispute about players not being able to get allocated tickets for the NFL game in Croke Park with Dublin?

The county board have said that they are to investigate it. Apparently the sell-out of the match seemed to take whoever made the offer by surprise. I agree that more than 3 should have been reserved though.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 16, 2007, 01:58:15 PM

Quote from: bigpaul on February 16, 2007, 12:53:57 AM
Fionntamhnach,if the Tyrone County Board had sent a letter to Croke Park in support of the GPA,would you think that the procedures followed were acceptable?

If they were followed correctly, then yes. I have only ever been to one county meeting (and what a county meeting it was!) but there are matters that are brought up at the time and are then decided on if they don't require direct consultation with clubs set on in the regulations. It happens quite often. In your scenario, I wouldn't like it, but I'd recognise that it was a body made up from the membership in Tyrone that would sanction it. I wasn't terribly pleased to see the football leagues revert back to 3x16 but I accept that's democracy. It's a bitch, eh? But we can't pick and choose what we like, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Must have been some meeting though Fionntamhnach to have come up with such a comprehensive, detailed and articulate stance.

Quote from: never kickt a ball on February 16, 2007, 03:06:08 PM

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 16, 2007, 01:58:15 PM

Quote from: bigpaul on February 16, 2007, 12:53:57 AM
Fionntamhnach,if the Tyrone County Board had sent a letter to Croke Park in support of the GPA,would you think that the procedures followed were acceptable?

If they were followed correctly, then yes. I have only ever been to one county meeting (and what a county meeting it was!) but there are matters that are brought up at the time and are then decided on if they don't require direct consultation with clubs set on in the regulations. It happens quite often. In your scenario, I wouldn't like it, but I'd recognise that it was a body made up from the membership in Tyrone that would sanction it. I wasn't terribly pleased to see the football leagues revert back to 3x16 but I accept that's democracy. It's a bitch, eh? But we can't pick and choose what we like, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Must have been some meeting though Fionntamhnach to have come up with such a comprehensive, detailed and articulate stance.

The meeting in question was in 2002.

Quote from: winghalfun on February 16, 2007, 02:18:00 PM

QuoteAre you serious? Do you think Sean Kavanagh is one of the finest footballers in the country by chance?

No, not by chance, but by a combination of a strong physical gene pool, god given talent, good coaching, encouragement, love of the game, a desire to win, and yes, discipline.
Being inch eye to a grasshopper, shortsighted and unable to take the lid of a can of Mr. Muscle, the strong physical gene pool and god given talent would probably precluded me from ever lining out in Croke Park.
Nonetheless, with some good coaching, encouragement, a love of the game and discipline I can but dream.

QuoteI'd wager the man eats drinks and sleeps Gaa as do most county players.

Granted, but within what parameters. The dream of the roar of the crowd on All-Ireland final day or the delight on the face of a 10 year old as he wins his first blitz medal.

QuoteConsidering the physical abuse they go through not to mention the verbal abuse from two-faced supporters, I wonder why they bother

The dream of that All-Ireland becoming a reality, a few sun kissed holidays abroad, personal adulation, expert physios, use of top facilities, a sports wardbrobe the envy of any asbo spiv and now maybe a few euro.

And by the way, the above is not directed at Sean personally but is a generalised response to the notion of the poor hard done by county player.

Romantic Ireland has been reborn and joined the GaaBoard.....and of course missed the point. I am amazed at some posters easy dismissal the efforts put in at the top level by players. The is no doubt that the clubs are the grassroots of the Gaa and that it's strengths include it's reach into every parish in the State. However if there was no end product like we currently have, no Canavans, Fitzeralds, McDonalds or McDonnells we would have little more than an adult community games.

Quotea few sun kissed holidays abroad, personal adulation, expert physios, use of top facilities, a sports wardbrobe the envy of any asbo spiv

I'd get that if I went on Big Brother and I'd get a lot more money with no talent whatsoever.

At the top end one of the main attractions of the game is the astonishing level of fitness and ability of most of the players. Don't take it for granted that there is a long production line of volunteers able to serve up the same fair, there isn't.

Skull are you a little numb?

   

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 16, 2007, 03:39:38 PM

Quote from: never kickt a ball on February 16, 2007, 03:06:08 PM

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 16, 2007, 01:58:15 PM

Quote from: bigpaul on February 16, 2007, 12:53:57 AM
Fionntamhnach,if the Tyrone County Board had sent a letter to Croke Park in support of the GPA,would you think that the procedures followed were acceptable?

If they were followed correctly, then yes. I have only ever been to one county meeting (and what a county meeting it was!) but there are matters that are brought up at the time and are then decided on if they don't require direct consultation with clubs set on in the regulations. It happens quite often. In your scenario, I wouldn't like it, but I'd recognise that it was a body made up from the membership in Tyrone that would sanction it. I wasn't terribly pleased to see the football leagues revert back to 3x16 but I accept that's democracy. It's a bitch, eh? But we can't pick and choose what we like, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Must have been some meeting though Fionntamhnach to have come up with such a comprehensive, detailed and articulate stance.

The meeting in question was in 2002.

Naw I'mon about the recent Tyrone County Board meeting:

QuoteI am writing, as requested by the Tyrone County Committee, to put to you as Uachtaran, to An Coiste Bainisti  and to Central Council a summary of a discussion that was held at our monthly County Committee meeting last night.
That discussion concerned the GAA's evident moves towards "recognition" of the Gaelic Players' Association (GPA). Our County Committee is clear that no such "recognition" should be granted.
The main reasons for our clear and unequivocal stance are as follows:

That must have been some meeting to have come up with such a comprehensive, detailed and articulate stance.

Quote from: muppet on February 16, 2007, 01:34:05 PM

QuoteWell you cannot blame me for holding such an opinion muppet when the GPA is as clandestine as it is.

Skull the game would be destroyed because the counties with the most money would 'buy' the best players.

Is this not what is 'allegedly' happening in Wicklow with all the transfer speculation.

QuoteIs this not what is 'allegedly' happening in Wicklow with all the transfer speculation.

Exactly. This thread is about defending an amateur association from the ( very real ) dangers of professionalism. But the Gaa is not amateur already. To win anything you at least have to know what game you are playing, staunch defense of an amateur ethos that has already been deflowered is fighting the wrong fight.

Quote from: muppet on February 16, 2007, 04:15:41 PM
Skull are you a little numb?

>:(1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10....aaaand relax ....I can only assume I must be winning the argument now that you've resorted to attacking my username

grow up you muppet :P

For the love of God Ziggy, correct that thread title.

Quote from: muppet on February 16, 2007, 04:15:41 PM
Romantic Ireland has been reborn and joined the GaaBoard.....and of course missed the point. I am amazed at some posters easy dismissal the efforts put in at the top level by players. The is no doubt that the clubs are the grassroots of the Gaa and that it's strengths include it's reach into every parish in the State. However if there was no end product like we currently have, no Canavans, Fitzeralds, McDonalds or McDonnells we would have little more than an adult community games.   

But people don't pay money or get involved in the GAA because of Canavan, Fitzgerald, McDonald or McDonnell. Jerry Seinfeld calls it "cheeriing for laundry" and he's right. If Canavan et al dropped out, even before Old Father Time did it for them, someone would come up to take their place. They might not be as good as those they replace - in fact, they must not be as good, else they would be in the team in the first place - but the laundry would remain the same. If that reduces All-Ireland final day to an adult community games, so be it.

QuoteIt will set a legal precedent of players getting financially rewarded for representing their couinty

Skull threre is no evidence to suggest it will set a legal precedent. You are implying that by giving them tax credits that it creates a legally binding situation whereby they must always be paid. That is not only not a fact, it is incorrect. As no agreement has yet been drafted no one can know what the terms or legal implications would be. Can you understand that it is not a fact nor is it likely to be unless the people who draft the agreement blunder hopelessly.


Deiseach we would be a far worse off association without our stars. Treating their union like the way the DUP treat Sinn Féin only hurts both and delays the inevitable. The demonisation of Dessie is typical of the way we sort out our conflicts ( see anti-opening backwoodsmen and pro-opening liberal bigots ) and irrelevent to the argument.

If the Gaa don't engage the GPA this situation will only get worse and I applaud Nicky Brennan's pragmatism on this issue. That does not mean I want him to accede to their demands. We have people here who trumpet the evil of the GPA's aspirations, even though they don't actually know what they are.

We have others who wax lyrical about the virgin purity of our amateur ethos. Certainly it is a noble ideal but it is cloud cuckoo land. If the Gaa want a truely amateur ethos then fair enough but suspend those making money from it. That includes Brolly and the other Dessie demonisers. But it especially includes the managers and high profile paid players.

well said deiseach, its people like you with a bit of sense that will keep the gaa alive in years to come, i doubt dessie farrell will. dessie makes playing for your county sound like a chore, it should be an honour. i know plenty of men who would buy their own kit if they thought they would get a game. thats a sharp contrast to dessie and his requests.

Quotethats a sharp contrast to dessie and his requests.

Alright behind the wire list Dessie's requests. Also please show how he makes playing for his county a chore. Do you know anything about his own career or the injuries he suffered?

Quote from: muppet on February 16, 2007, 06:14:58 PM
Deiseach we would be a far worse off association without our stars. Treating their union like the way the DUP treat Sinn Féin only hurts both and delays the inevitable. The demonisation of Dessie is typical of the way we sort out our conflicts ( see anti-opening backwoodsmen and pro-opening liberal bigots ) and irrelevent to the argument.

I think it's more a case that the stars would be far worse off without our association.

There's nothing "inevitable" about the GAA needing to engage with the GPA, no more than it was inevitable that the DUP had to deal with Sinn Féin. Saying it is inevitable does not make it so.

Incidentally, on the basis of the principles of free association, I have no problem with the GPA. But they are an interest group, and thus can only be said to represent their own membership. I do not believe their voices should be given extra weight just because of who they are.

Sean Cavanagh's views:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/sol/newsid_6360000/newsid_6368600/6368681.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm

QuoteSaying it is inevitable does not make it so.

Really well saying it is not inevitable does not make it not inevitable.  ::)

I'm disappointed in Cavanagh hearing that.  I thought he was a fairly astute fella up to now.  He could have at least worked out the jist of what was being said before he commented on it.

Quote from: muppet on February 16, 2007, 06:14:58 PM

QuoteIt will set a legal precedent of players getting financially rewarded for representing their couinty

Skull threre is no evidence to suggest it will set a legal precedent. You are implying that by giving them tax credits that it creates a legally binding situation whereby they must always be paid. That is not only not a fact, it is incorrect. As no agreement has yet been drafted no one can know what the terms or legal implications would be. Can you understand that it is not a fact nor is it likely to be unless the people who draft the agreement blunder hopelessly.

Muppet I suggest you read my words again. Pay specifc attention to the words financially rewarded. If they get tax breaks, there will be more money in their back pockets at the end of every week thanks to their involvement with a County team will there not?.  We can call it something else if you like, but I think the phrase "pay for play" is pretty apt.

I'll say it again. Cavanagh was attempting to distance the players from the County Boards statement in case it hinders them from benefitting from any GPA gains.

Have the GPA ever released how many are actually signed up members? Cavanagh claims that in 5 years of county football, he has only met one player who was not a member.

Sorry for answering my own question - from their site:

Over 1,500 members in 32 counties. - so on average 40-50 members per county

So what has the association achieved?

    * We have survived against the odds and matured into the most powerful, progressive and highest profile players? representative body in Ireland.
    * We have constructively highlighted the plight of inter county players to unprecedented levels, to the extent that the issue of player welfare is to the fore at county conventions on an annual basis.
    * We actively represent and advise players at local level on various issues in disputes with County Boards on an individual or team basis (close involvement with two teams? high profile withdrawal of services)
    * Our innovative recommendations on various matters including commercial activity, competitive structures, discipline, and suspensions have been presented on an ongoing basis to the GAA?s hierarchy.
    * Progressed the issue of player representation and official recognition of the GPA and it?s members.
    * We have had an Actuaries Report commissioned; the first independent scientific evaluation of the costs involved for inter-county players due to their substantial commitment to teams. The results were staggering. Depending on the duration of service, anywhere from ?100,000 to ?150,000 was estimated as the cost of a lengthy inter county career.
    * The GPA has campaigned aggressively for the introduction of government sports grants for Inter County GAA players. This ground braking initiative has been endorsed by the ISC and warmly received by Brian Cowen Minister for Finance. Progress is anticipated within the coming year.
    * We have campaigned successfully on a host of player welfare issues, with the following results:
          o Provision of a stipulated list of playing gear.
          o Provision of adequate meals after training and matches.
          o Increase in mileage rates for travel - as low as 10p in 1999 to 50 cent from January 1st 2004
          o Increase in the number of tickets to players
          o Introduction of two tickets for All Ireland Final for players who have participated in that year?s championship.
          o Provision of passes for players for National League and Club Matches.
    * The association has met the challenge of drug testing and pro-actively assisted players and the Irish Sports Council through an ongoing process of education and dramatic cultural change for the GAAs inter county players. (see www.eirpharm.ie for lists of banned products)
    * The initiation of the GPAs Hurling Redevelopment Initiative for Weaker Counties? in 2003 resulted in formal dialogue with the GAA?s Hurling Redevelopment Committee (HDC). Our policies, if adopted will enhance the profile of our national game amongst the weaker hurling counties.
    * The commercial landscape has changed dramatically, with the GPA leading the charge for rule amendments to facilitate commercial activity by individuals and team units, an area where we have been remarkably successful to date!
    * We have aggressively campaigned to open up the playing gear market and we are encouraged to see two new forces ? Azzurri and Gaelic Gear adding competitiveness, style and glamour to a previously monopolised marketplace.
    * The Players Awards totally surpass any other awards to date within the GAA with the GPA Hurler and Footballer of the Year receiving a brand new car.
    * The GPA?s Gala and Awards Night, with attendances of aprox. 1000, is now established as the best GAA night of the year, an immensely enjoyable occasion for all.

    * Our recent development of the isotonic sports drink in conjunction with C&C Ireland is a landmark arrangement in the history of Irish sport. For the next ten years, for each bottle of Club Energise sold a percentage of profit goes directly to the GPA to fund our ongoing progress. Various projects including scholarships, club and youth development programmes, and our benevolent fund are benefiting from the proceeds of Club Energise. Club Energise has remunerated 115 players since August of 2003 through it?s marketing and scholarship initiative. This brand continues to grow with new products launched earlier this year.

    * The continuation of our scholarship scheme in 2005 in conjunction with Club Energise, brings the total number of recipients to 60 nationwide.
    * The GPA has successfully contested image rights violations for players whereby companies settled out of court for using our members? images without consent. We have progressed the issue of image rights to unprecedented levels in Ireland, hosting a seminar in conjunction with international image rights expert Nic Couchman (Couchman & Harrington Ltd) who has advised David Beckham and Wayne Rooney, amongst others.

    * The association has actively sought on behalf of, and successfully placed members within positions of professional employment.
    * In April 2005 the GPA announced the historical development of 67 ?Official Players GPA Funds? for each county squad in hurling and football.
    * Revamped website ? www.gaelicplayers.com
    * GPA has established our own texting service which provides members with up to the minute information. Members are not charged for this service.
    * The GPA works extensively with a number of charities and fund raising events in various capacities.
    * The GPA continues to provide players on a regular basis for under-age coaching at club level and Summer camps etc.
    * The GPA is to establish regional coaching seminars specific to physical conditioning in conjunction with Dr. Liam Hennessy for club and county trainers with a view to educating those key individuals with proper and effective programmes for all players.
    * The GPA commisssioned the UCD Centre for Sports Studies to conduct the first comprehensive survey of the views of senior inter county Gaelic footballers and hurlers and as a result a report was published which will have wide ranging inplications for future generations of players within the GAA.

 O'Neill I may be wrong but I interpreted Cavanagh's claim to refer only to Tyrone players.
( sorry )
Skull I give up. ::)

Sorry, that's what I meant.

(and it's Cavanagh)

Quote from: muppet on February 16, 2007, 07:42:07 PM

QuoteSaying it is inevitable does not make it so.

Really well saying it is not inevitable does not make it not inevitable.  ::)

Seeing as the status quo is that they are not recognised, the onus is on you to demonstrate why it is inevitable.

 It is merely my opinion that a sport's association at some stage will have to recognise it's elite players union, just like happened in Soccer, Snooker, F1 etc.

Fair enough muppet....I guess that means I win ;)

 It means you are either very stupid or else a troll.

Quote from: muppet on February 16, 2007, 08:34:56 PM
It is merely my opinion that a sport's association at some stage will have to recognise it's elite players union, just like happened in Soccer, Snooker, F1 etc.

Every other sport has a professional elite. With them, it's all about the money (with the exception of F1, where safety is the issue). While professionals can expect solidarity from non-members because any dispute impacts on their ability to earn a living, a GAA players union would have no such leverage. So what they can do to get the GAA to a position where they have to recognise them is a mystery to me.

QuoteSo what they can do to get the GAA to a position where they have to recognise them is a mystery to me.

Whether or not you agree with them they have raised some important issues and have forced the Gaa to deal with at least some of these issues. If Sean Cavanagh can honestly state that only one player in his time as a county player with Tyrone isn't in the GPA, then I think it will happen sooner than people think. They have more members than I thought.

Nicky Brennan seems intelligent enough to sort this out reasonably amicably. But the Tyrone CB have made it more difficult for him.

I have it on good authority that the Derry County Board are having a special meeting next week to discuss the issue, looks like the Tyrone County Board will some support on this one!

Quote from: never kickt a ball on February 16, 2007, 04:28:16 PM

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 16, 2007, 03:39:38 PM

Quote from: never kickt a ball on February 16, 2007, 03:06:08 PM

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 16, 2007, 01:58:15 PM

Quote from: bigpaul on February 16, 2007, 12:53:57 AM
Fionntamhnach,if the Tyrone County Board had sent a letter to Croke Park in support of the GPA,would you think that the procedures followed were acceptable?

If they were followed correctly, then yes. I have only ever been to one county meeting (and what a county meeting it was!) but there are matters that are brought up at the time and are then decided on if they don't require direct consultation with clubs set on in the regulations. It happens quite often. In your scenario, I wouldn't like it, but I'd recognise that it was a body made up from the membership in Tyrone that would sanction it. I wasn't terribly pleased to see the football leagues revert back to 3x16 but I accept that's democracy. It's a bitch, eh? But we can't pick and choose what we like, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Must have been some meeting though Fionntamhnach to have come up with such a comprehensive, detailed and articulate stance.

The meeting in question was in 2002.

Naw I'mon about the recent Tyrone County Board meeting:

QuoteI am writing, as requested by the Tyrone County Committee, to put to you as Uachtaran, to An Coiste Bainisti  and to Central Council a summary of a discussion that was held at our monthly County Committee meeting last night.
That discussion concerned the GAA's evident moves towards "recognition" of the Gaelic Players' Association (GPA). Our County Committee is clear that no such "recognition" should be granted.
The main reasons for our clear and unequivocal stance are as follows:

That must have been some meeting to have come up with such a comprehensive, detailed and articulate stance.

Ah right, got the wires crossed! It must have been a fairly in-depth discussion alright, but not that it couldn't have been said in a reasonable amount of time.

Quote from: Take Your Points on February 16, 2007, 11:26:09 PM
Is it just my connection but I thought the Cavanagh statement on the BBC was heavily edited to make it sound like a speech by cutting out any questions from an interviewer?

A very dangerous way to deal with interviews!  If it is edited it makes Cavanagh sound much different than in an interview format.

Yes, definitely edited. Fairly repetitive and unnnecessary I thought.

Aye but Sean was willing to repeat the same shite. Players are not as media naive as they used to be.

Did the Tyrone County Board give this letter to the GAA before the released it to the general public??? If not that is bad form.

If the county boards don't want the GPA to have a leg to stand on they should have been more proactive in ensuing  that the players etc were looked after. The GPA got most of its members etc due to the fact that the players weren't being looked after....

A lot of the complaints about the GPA seem to be when people have an OPINION that the GPA is looking for a pay for play situation - if memory serves me correct Dessie has come out and siad that they are not looking for that.......and the players themselves seem happy with it.......Do most people actually believe that the players really want pay for play????? Do they know any manager/player/administrator who gets money from teh GAA - if so do they object as streneously to these people getting money...

QuoteDid the Tyrone County Board give this letter to the GAA before the released it to the general public??? If not that is bad form.

Yes, that did seem mischievous.

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 16, 2007, 01:58:15 PM

Quote from: bigpaul on February 16, 2007, 12:53:57 AM
Fionntamhnach,if the Tyrone County Board had sent a letter to Croke Park in support of the GPA,would you think that the procedures followed were acceptable?

If they were followed correctly, then yes. I have only ever been to one county meeting (and what a county meeting it was!) but there are matters that are brought up at the time and are then decided on if they don't require direct consultation with clubs set on in the regulations. It happens quite often. In your scenario, I wouldn't like it, but I'd recognise that it was a body made up from the membership in Tyrone that would sanction it. I wasn't terribly pleased to see the football leagues revert back to 3x16 but I accept that's democracy. It's a bitch, eh? But we can't pick and choose what we like, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Fionntamhnach,the difference in the the example you have quoted and the topic we are discussing is a matter of policy! When the GAA as a whole, a County Board or a club decide to adopt a new policy it should be ratified at a general meeting!

Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on February 16, 2007, 11:44:17 PM
Did the Tyrone County Board give this letter to the GAA before the released it to the general public??? If not that is bad form.

Agreed. It was bull-in-the-china-shop diplomacy

Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on February 16, 2007, 11:44:17 PMIf the county boards don't want the GPA to have a leg to stand on they should have been more proactive in ensuing  that the players etc were looked after. The GPA got most of its members etc due to the fact that the players weren't being looked after....

A lot of the complaints about the GPA seem to be when people have an OPINION that the GPA is looking for a pay for play situation - if memory serves me correct Dessie has come out and siad that they are not looking for that.......and the players themselves seem happy with it.......Do most people actually believe that the players really want pay for play????? Do they know any manager/player/administrator who gets money from teh GAA - if so do they object as streneously to these people getting money...

I don't believe that the GPA are against pay-for-play. Perhaps they have rowed back from the €127 idea, but their primary aim (and I don't believe they should apologise for this) is to improve the lot of their members, so it makes sense for them to look for money. As for your point about the managers, I believe there are managers being paid and yes, yes, thrice yes, the GAA should crack down on it. The sooner the better.

Now just hold on a minute, theres currently about 40 odd Tyrone players on the Tyrone squad.  Who does their viewpoint represent.  Im not doubting it,  I just want to know its not only the top 5 or 10. 
Personally, i believe  this Tyrone squad should be kept happy otherwise we'll have to replace them with another squad and that would be in nobodys interests particulary Tyrones.

From the general inital reaction to the county boards letter the county players really are out on their own.  Personally What I dont like here is the emergence of the Tyrone wing of the GPA  asking for what amounts to a croke Park rebuttal of their county board, all on the promptingsof the GPA.  If the county players want to talk to the county board they could get a meeting tomorrow.  Why go to the press?  I think theres a few intellegent people who are being manipulated here.  Regardless of whether you agree with the GPA or not this is not good for anyone and could have been prevented.  Have the county board been brave or very stupid..  Time will tell for all concerned.   

Quote from: ONeill on February 16, 2007, 05:50:04 PM
For the love of God Ziggy, correct that thread title.

Can't really blame Ziggy when the Tyrone Gaa Website can't spell Tyrone right either:
http://www.tyronegaa.ie/countyboard/news/story.jsp?newsid=293

I noticed the error before I posted it. I'm not going to sit down and re-edit all references I post here. Too time consuming.

Quote from: ziggysego on February 17, 2007, 04:43:56 PM
I noticed the error before I posted it. I'm not going to sit down and re-edit all references I post here. Too time consuming.

No Ziggy You don't have to go through them all. Go to your first post and modify the subject and save it. Then the thread title will change. Anyway the Tyrone GAA website should at least spell Tyrone right. That's the point I was making. Were greencastle playing today?

Quote from: bigpaul on February 17, 2007, 12:14:18 AM

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on February 16, 2007, 01:58:15 PM

Quote from: bigpaul on February 16, 2007, 12:53:57 AM
Fionntamhnach,if the Tyrone County Board had sent a letter to Croke Park in support of the GPA,would you think that the procedures followed were acceptable?

If they were followed correctly, then yes. I have only ever been to one county meeting (and what a county meeting it was!) but there are matters that are brought up at the time and are then decided on if they don't require direct consultation with clubs set on in the regulations. It happens quite often. In your scenario, I wouldn't like it, but I'd recognise that it was a body made up from the membership in Tyrone that would sanction it. I wasn't terribly pleased to see the football leagues revert back to 3x16 but I accept that's democracy. It's a bitch, eh? But we can't pick and choose what we like, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Fionntamhnach,the difference in the the example you have quoted and the topic we are discussing is a matter of policy! When the GAA as a whole, a County Board or a club decide to adopt a new policy it should be ratified at a general meeting!

Maybe you know better about the guidelines set down? I only have a rough idea about the procedures, but I guess the county board felt that it was a matter that didn't require feedback from clubs.

I don't really have much more to say on it all except that Winghalfun's Animal Farm comparison is one that I would align with.

Quote from: ziggysego on February 17, 2007, 04:43:56 PM
I noticed the error before I posted it. I'm not going to sit down and re-edit all references I post here. Too time consuming.

The error?

Quote from: never kickt a ball on February 17, 2007, 05:06:37 PM

Quote from: ziggysego on February 17, 2007, 04:43:56 PM
I noticed the error before I posted it. I'm not going to sit down and re-edit all references I post here. Too time consuming.

No Ziggy You don't have to go through them all. Go to your first post and modify the subject and save it. Then the thread title will change. Anyway the Tyrone GAA website should at least spell Tyrone right. That's the point I was making. Were greencastle playing today?

No. Greencastle's playing tomorrow at 2pm.

As far as using a piece of literature as an anology, quotes can be used to back up just about any argument. If you go back to page one of this topic you will see that I used the 'more equal than others' quote to criticise the Tyrone County Board. All Christian religions can quote the Bible to prove that theirs' is the only true Faith. Anyone who believes that the GAA are an egalitarian organisation is living in cloud cuckoo land!
Any group of individuals  are entitled to form an association, either just to associate or to increase their influence through numbers, this is true for everyone, from the Womens' Institute to the ICTU.To criticise their very existence is not acceptable.
What I find surprising about the gaaboard is how players, who are consistently eulogised here, become misguided fools when going public with a pro GPA opinion. I find it amazing that it can be accepted at face value that the T.C.B. acted properly and above board, yet the level of support among the Tyrone playing panels, for a statement issued on their behalf, can be questioned when their hasn't been a single report of any dissenting voice.
It has been stated earlier that there was a need for a players' representative body in 1999, but that the need no longer exists. If one of the most cash rich county boards can't, won't or hasn't the gumption to give a cash strapped injured player an interest free loan to ensure that he isn't forced to return to work earlier than he should, the need clearly does exist!
It was also argued, that as Brian Mc Guigan was injured while playing for Ardboe, it wasn't the T.C.B.'s responsibility. Why then did they take responsibility for his treatment? Was it a case of, we want you fit to play for us again  but don't give a s**t what happens in the rest of your life?

Quote from: bigpaul on February 17, 2007, 11:03:11 PM
As far as using a piece of literature as an anology, quotes can be used to back up just about any argument. If you go back to page one of this topic you will see that I used the 'more equal than others' quote to criticise the Tyrone County Board.

Was that not Animal Farm, or Mowlawns?

Quote from: ONeill on February 17, 2007, 11:13:33 PM

Quote from: bigpaul on February 17, 2007, 11:03:11 PM
As far as using a piece of literature as an anology, quotes can be used to back up just about any argument. If you go back to page one of this topic you will see that I used the 'more equal than others' quote to criticise the Tyrone County Board.

Was that not Animal Farm, or Mowlawns?

???

QuotePersonally What I dont like here is the emergence of the Tyrone wing of the GPA  asking for what amounts to a croke Park rebuttal of their county board, all on the promptingsof the GPA.  If the county players want to talk to the county board they could get a meeting tomorrow.  Why go to the press?

RHF it was the Tyrone County Board who went to the press.

Part of me thinks it's all a clever stunt to distract from yesterday's meeting about using Croker for Rugby and Soccer next year. But if that were true it would mean Nicky Brennan & Co are very clever and the Tyrone County Board are very stupid, Cavanagh and co would be merely caught up in the fall-out.

Looks like the Tyrone county board have shot themselves in the foot with this one, giving a lesson in how to alienate  your football and hurling panels, the GAA hierarchy and the GPA in one fell swoop.  Will be interesting to see if they stand their ground over the next while or start to backtrack.

Saturday, 17 February 18:35 GMT
Harkin to quiz Tyrone welfare claims
Tyrone Central Council delegate Brendan Harkin has expressed surprise at the claim made on Friday in a joint-statement from Tyrone footballers and hurlers that "a number of welfare issues" exist in the county.
The players' statement followed an open letter from the county board calling on the GAA not to officially recognise the GPA. They claimed that the football squad had had "a number of welfare issues in recent weeks as have the hurling squad in seasons past".
Speaking at the Central Council meeting held on Saturday, Harkin stated that he was bemused at these suggestions and that he intended seeking clarification from GPA chief executive Dessie Farrell in the matter.
Meanwhile, Dessie Farrell stated at the meeting he hoped that matters would move on and expressed his satisfaction with the talks with the GAA currently in progress in relation to grants.
http://ie.setanta.com/portal/article/gaa?open&articleid=8d9af71b63c9c0ab8025728500661c06

Doesn't look like their back tracking Armamike. I'm wondering if Peter Canavan's recent article on the GPA has anything to do with this posturing by the Tyrone County Board.

Saturday, 17 February 18:35
Harkin to quiz Tyrone welfare claims
Tyrone Central Council delegate Brendan Harkin has expressed surprise at the claim made on Friday in a joint-statement from Tyrone footballers and hurlers that "a number of welfare issues" exist in the county.
The players' statement followed an open letter from the county board calling on the GAA not to officially recognise the GPA. They claimed that the football squad had had "a number of welfare issues in recent weeks as have the hurling squad in seasons past".
Speaking at the Central Council meeting held on Saturday, Harkin stated that he was bemused at these suggestions and that he intended seeking clarification from GPA chief executive Dessie Farrell in the matter.
Meanwhile, Dessie Farrell stated at the meeting he hoped that matters would move on and expressed his satisfaction with the talks with the GAA currently in progress in relation to grants.
http://ie.setanta.com/portal/article/gaa?open&articleid=8d9af71b63c9c0ab8025728500661c06

Doesn't look like their back tracking Armamike. I'm wondering if Peter Canavan's recent article on the GPA has anything to do with this posturing by the Tyrone County Board.

what does PC say in his article?

Quote from: Armamike on February 18, 2007, 11:48:09 PM
what does PC say in his article?

You'll find his article here Armamike:
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=71830

To put my own opinion on the board Im anti Donal O Neills agency and Im therefore anti GPA.  He has no right as far as Im concerned to formulate policy for Tyrone county players.  Ultimately his promotional agency has signed up so many county players.  How much money has he made on the back of endorsement etc.  would be a fair enough question to ask.  Dont forget hes not the first players agent.  Kevin Moran and Jayo in 95is one example.  Speaking as a Tyrone supporter I believe our county players should be managed in house within the rules of the GAA and if they fell they have a grievance then it is aired inhouse.  I dont approve of what Sean Cavanagh has done, however I certainly dont approve of what Pat Darcy has done either, as someone pointed out this was a letter for the press as much as Nickey Brennan.  The GAA need to pull the carpet from under the feet of Donal O Neill county by county.  Tyrone supporters give £250,000 per annum to their county teams through the club Tyrone mechanism.  This is not given so that 13 extra county board men can board the team bus to Dublin ahead of injured pannellists.... the hangers on need rooted out.  This is given to ensure we can give the best coaching, the best facilities, the best medical treatment and the best quality of life available to all our players within the rules of the GAAb whilst they committ to our county cause.  If Brian Mc Guigan was mistreated.  I want those that were in charge of his recovery never to have the opportunity to represent the county again at anything GAA as they have contributed to bringing our players and county into disrepute.  If Pat Darcy is defending the indefensible or covering up problems without resolving them, with all the supporters money and goodwill being pumped at them, I think its near time he considered his own position... and I am anti GPA.  Similarly if Sean Cavanagh had other alternatives open tro him and I dont now this,  he should have kept his mouth shut.  In my opinion The players who represent are sacrosanct, they are not indispensible, and we can get others to fill their places, but these guys want to do it, they have taken Tyrone to the top of the tree twice.  Our club Tyrone money is put in on the promise that these things will not happen.  On another matter Im against pay for play, but the GAAs decision to introduce pay per view for the elite of supporters is as unprincipled a stance as pay for play as far as Im concerned.  it is an absolute disgrace that they are removing the oxygen of publicity from our games at a time when they are strong and providing coverag only to an elite audience.  Take the case of a pensioner i know whi played for his county and wasnt fit to attend Tyrone V Dublin, he would have had to pay £150 for the privelage of seeing his own county play  because of the new greed of the GAA       

Quote from: realredhandfan on February 19, 2007, 10:03:10 AM
Take the case of a pensioner i know whi played for his county and wasnt fit to attend Tyrone V Dublin, he would have had to pay £150 for the privelage of seeing his own county play  because of the new greed of the GAA       

I obviously missed the news about subscription TV.  What was the news / announcement?

live coverage on Setanta at 13 per month.  the GAAs greatest showcase this year so far. 

 Anyone able to give more info on this Donal O'Neill character?

I suspect that given the Gaa's tardiness in tackling the whole GPA/Player welfare issue, the subequent vacuum will be full of all sorts of speculators. The Gaa need to tie up all loose ends in this area and the only way that can be done is to corner the GPA in a binding deal. That will close any gap between players and the Association and leave no room for agent wannabees.

I can appreciate the idealogy of traditionalists but I think a dose of realism is needed before this mushrooms out of control.

spotted a gap in the market more like

So the GPA was the brainchild of a "sports marketing consultant". How surprising. In the world of professional sport that these types have irredeemably corrupted, "sports marketing consultants" are more accurately known as "spivs".

Some of Dessie's inanities and self-contradictions would be amusing if they weren't so infuriating.

E.g., "after taking up my position with the GPA, I realised that a 'pay-for-play' agenda wasn't on", followed by  "then, we commissioned an actuary's report, to determine how much players were out of pocket ... the net result was a demand for €127 a week to compensate players".

Dessie, explain the difference between "pay-for-play" and "a demand for €127 a week to compensate players".  We still continually get the ritual "we don't want pay for play", yet practically every GPA statement refers to the amount of money generated in the GAA while players get nothing, demands for some of the money made from renting Croke Park, etc. etc.  Eventually it becomes clear that the "pay for play" phrase is just a device to throw you off. I think it translates as "we want some of the GAA's money for elite players, but we'll never agree to call it "pay for play". Oh right. So it's pay for being a (county) player. That's different, then.

It would be easy for all of us who are heavily involved to do a survey estimating how much money we'd be out over the years if we weren't involved in the GAA. It's total bullshit though because we CHOOSE to do it and enjoy it. If we didn't then we wouldn't. Same with county players. When you see things like "highlight the plight of county players" it really annoys me. You'd swear they were living in Darfur or something. Plight. Indeed.

And the GAA is dealing with the GPA. They have a rep on Central Council - what more do they deserve. That's a huge thing to have. I'd love it if my club could have one as well.

What wages are involved here particularly O neills

 Thanks for the informative posts TYP.

Seanie and Hardy while I respect your positions I dont think ignoring the GPA is going to make the problem go away. The more they are ignored the more powerful they seem to get. If Sean Cavanagh can state only that one Tyrone panalelist in his time as a senior player wasn't a GPA member then it seems fairly unanimous, at least in Tyrone.

Taking a hard line is going to end in tears. Better for the Gaa to cut a deal while they can still dictate the terms.

Muppet - likewise, I respect your opinions, as well as Uladh's, etc. - they're obviously sincerely held and rationally argued (... group hug, anybody  :)).

But I really don't see what we have to fear from the GPA or whether or not they go away. I think we will lose a lot more by kow-towing to them and conceding precedents to them than we will by ignoring them. As I said earlier, the GPA's only sanction  is to withraw their services to county teams (their 'labour', they'd probably call it). What happens when we say "OK. What's your next trick"?

 ( Where did my post go? Second one today, obviously you read it Hardy as you replied to it but I can't find it. )

QuoteAs I said earlier, the GPA's only sanction is to withraw their services to county teams (their 'labour', they'd probably call it). What happens when we say "OK. What's your next trick"?

Having been through a couple of strikes they are not to be taken lightly. They are incredibly divisive and open wounds that often never heal. Add in the passion and emotion that go with all things Gaa and player strike could be clamitous for the Association. It should be seen by all as the doomsday scenario. There is no shame in talking to opponents so they should get talking. The solution might be easier than each side thinks.

Lads, I could get the head taken off me here but nonetheless - I don't see any problem with county players getting a small sum for the effort they put into the game. I know a friend of mine who plays for a "small" county. He rarely goes out and lives in the gymn. He might take a drink 5 or 6 times a year. He will probably never win a major title. While I understand many of your views with regard to the effort other ordinary members of the gaa put in, bare in mind that on any given night that person can go out and enjoy themselves and turn up at their trainin/coaching session the next day nursing a "small" hangover (i.e. it'll be alright so long as they can physically take the session which should of course be a given). Can the intercounty player do that? These guys have no lives. I know the rewards can be great but what if your playin for a weaker county? In some cases its not that eeasy either to walk away and say "I want a life" because there is alot of pressure on players of a certain ability to play and represent their county. I acknowledge though that there can be pressure on underage mentops too to stay coaching in a club because no one's willing to take over. My point is, if every manager at intercounty level, and 90% of club managers are gettin large sums for their troubles, then why begrudge the guys that are doing the most to promote these games and generate this money a tiny fraction of it? €127 a week doesn't have to evolve into "pay for play". There should still be lots of money left to feed into the grass-roots.

Quote from: muppet on February 19, 2007, 12:44:31 PM
You really dont fit in here do you? That is the most naive thing I've read here.

QuoteIt will set a legal precedent of players getting financially rewarded for representing their couinty and leave the door open for them to the gain even more in the future.  The fact that the GAA mightn't be paying for it is irrelevant.

The notion of legal precendent suggests the situation would be irreversible and as you stated could only lead to more money . That is absolute bullshit. If you left out 'legal precendent' you would have been left with: It will ..( see? )..players getting financially rewarded for representing their couinty and leave the door open for them to the gain even more in the future.  The fact that the GAA mightn't be paying for it is irrelevant. That could be taken as given by any credit system and would have been a completely pointless post.

I am not going to argue the toss with an oversensitive hypocritical fool. Have some balls and take it onto the public board.

I'd like the board opinion on one of the comments I made on an earlier post which muppet has taken great exception to.

QuoteIt will set a legal precedent of players getting financially rewarded for representing their couinty and leave the door open for them to the gain even more in the future.  The fact that the GAA mightn't be paying for it is irrelevant.

As you can see above myself and muppet have got into a spat over my use of the words legal precedent in one of my replys earlier in this thread. After attempting to explain why I used those specific words, muppet, instead of moving with the discussion decided to hurl a bit personal abuse. Itook exception to this and we've been going at ever since on the PM's. Muppet has suggested that I have some balls and take this back onto the board, so here I am. I've risen to his bait.


As I stated in an earlier post on this thread, my use of the word legal was in reference to the GAA and there current position on payment for playing. They currently do not allow payment to players even though illegal payments are taking place outside of their control. I explained that I did not intend for the word legal to be a reference to some sort of judicial process. I tried to communicate that to muppet but he has stuck to his guns  and defined the two words as a term i.e Legal Precedent - A judicial decision that may be used as a standard in subsequent similar cases. We haven't got much further than him trying to win this what I believe to be, very specific yet meaningless point whilst he believes that I am the one making meaningless points.
I'm saying that he is being pedeantic in the extreme and has totally ignored the important point I was trying to make which is that the GAA has never allowed payments to players before before and to allow this financial reward to players under a tax break system is effectively the GAA giving into the "pay for play".

I'd like some opinions please....???

Quote€127 a week doesn't have to evolve into "pay for play".

FFS you couldn't make it up. A great first post.

wispa - your point is  that those from the weaker counties should be paid for being weak.  ffs thats not near elitist enough.  if I play for Kilkenny footballers and get 127 euro per week playing 5 games a year.  How the hell is that fair for Ciaran Mc Geeny one of armaghs finest playing 12 games per year.  

Actuallly a new point-  if counties play 10 games per annum in national league and championship then that 127 per week amounts to over 600 euro per game.  If thats not great news for all involved then sure what is.  Also it would pay to be less successful as the mless game ye play the more your income per game percentage increase.  In other words the less you contribute to the GAA the more you'll earn.  Its so cunning a plan you could almost call it anti GAA.

 The €127 is being suggested as a tax credit. It is money they will have earned themselves but will pay less tax on. Our generous government give tax credits to people from Landlords to the needy JP McManus why not far more worthy receipients like our County players?

( ps if anyone bothered to read Skulls post he has tried to harass me for days with a barrage of PM's complaining over my asking was his Skull numb. He has demanded an apology. Given the gravity of the situation we need a respected moderator urgently before this develops into societal breakdown, any volunteers ( tax credits offered )? )

How many games they play is irrelevant. The idea behind the theory is that a footballer in Wicklow makes as many sacrifices as one in Armagh. While this may not have been the case 10 years ago it is rapidly becoming so. They train from October/November onwards till Mid-June at the earliest before they are knocked out of all intercounty competition. Take into account that increasingly they are asked to maintain weight programmes throughout the year and it is quite clear intercounty football is almost a 12 month commitment. Dessie Farrell's desire to reward all players equally eradicates the elitism criticised so readily by many posts here. The efforts made by all players up until after the first round of the c'ship will not vary to that great a deal, thus justifying equal standing for all. I think most players who go on to play for the most successful teams later on in the c'ship would acknowledge that these games bring their own rewards as regards titles, national recognition, personal recognition, etc.  And the point I was trynig to make Magpie was that a small amount of money towards the players does not necessarily mean the floodgates will open and professionalism will arrive and destroy our game.

Seems to me that it is the managers that are making our county players lives a misery. It is the managers that are asking players to train all year round, do the weight programs, the special diets. The GPA should be up in arms and fighting against managers. It is not county boards or the GAA HQ that asks players to start training in October, so if the GPA has an axe to grind then it should be the various county team managers. The GPA constantly give about about the amount of time and effort a county player has to put in, the lost wages and missing chances of promotion. Instead of focusing on comsentating the players, why not focus on the managers who ask their players to make them train excessively. If the GPA is genuinely interested in player welfare then call on managers to introduce more player friendly training. None of this nonsense of running round a beach at 6.30am. Thats what their real focus should be on. Will a few euro ease the burden on a player.

Managers seem to be the ones making money out of the whole thing and it is they who dictate the regimes that the GPA use as an arguement for their existence. Perhaps it is time to call them to task.

I see that the GAA introduced a ban on challenge games in December and January and a few intercounty managers weren't too happy about the whole thing. The GPA should applaud the GAA for this move but should also be calling on the GAA to introduce restrictions on pre season training or all expenses paid weekends away (cause this is when players earn overtime for their jobs)

Geez. I am glad I have not been inflicted with the ability to play football at any level as it sounds like a right bollix.

To be honest when you read about the pain and the suffering that the poor County players suffer why do they put thmselves through it?

Quote from: Norf Tyrone on February 19, 2007, 05:39:15 PM
Geez. I am glad I have not been inflicted with the ability to play football at any level as it sounds like a right bollix.

:D

Quote from: phpearse on February 19, 2007, 05:35:53 PM
Seems to me that it is the managers that are making our county players lives a misery. It is the managers that are asking players to train all year round, do the weight programs, the special diets. The GPA should be up in arms and fighting against managers. It is not county boards or the GAA HQ that asks players to start training in October, so if the GPA has an axe to grind then it should be the various county team managers. The GPA constantly give about about the amount of time and effort a county player has to put in, the lost wages and missing chances of promotion. Instead of focusing on comsentating the players, why not focus on the managers who ask their players to make them train excessively. If the GPA is genuinely interested in player welfare then call on managers to introduce more player friendly training. None of this nonsense of running round a beach at 6.30am. Thats what their real focus should be on. Will a few euro ease the burden on a player.

Managers seem to be the ones making money out of the whole thing and it is they who dictate the regimes that the GPA use as an arguement for their existence. Perhaps it is time to call them to task.

I see that the GAA introduced a ban on challenge games in December and January and a few intercounty managers weren't too happy about the whole thing. The GPA should applaud the GAA for this move but should also be calling on the GAA to introduce restrictions on pre season training or all expenses paid weekends away (cause this is when players earn overtime for their jobs)

You're only right. Maybe if managers had to hold down proper jobs like the players do they'd be less enthusiastic about having four (!) training sessions a week.

I think the points raised by phpearse is something which needs to be looked at. A freind of mine mentioned years ago that he thought the GAA should introduce a limit to the number of training sessions a team could have to ensure that there wasn't excessive pressure placed on what are amatuer players. Totally unworkable I know, but I could and still do understand where he was coming from. It's all getting a bit too professional at County level to the huge detriment of the club game. I do think that we need to redress that balance, but I am sceptical of the willingness to do such a thing as it would ultimately affect the books. Its obvious the GPA understand the level of greed within Croke Park and how it is in everybodies interest (everybody being Croke Park and the GPA) to have more and more intercounty matchs over the season

Whether some individual GPA members originally believed or still believe in 'pay for play' is academic. That 'boat has left the harbour',it has been made abundantly clear to everyone that it is not on the agenda, by both the Government and the GAA. The GPA has made it clear it is not their policy (if they were to go back on this point they would lose all credibility). Therfore, I feel it is really a waste of time to even discuss it. The GPA have realised that their best course is to pursue the sports grants option, GAA players certainly have a case when taken beside the help and concessions granted to particpants in other sports, in fact it is surprising that there weren't more questions raised by GAA members in this regard, if the organisation wasn't being shown equality in any other regard I feel there would have been. As regards players having personal representatives  or agents, if there are no contracts to be negotiated I can't see how this would impact on the GAA. The GAA accepted several years ago that players were permitted to earn money from activity related to their sporting activities, who they get to help or represent them in this is nobody's business but there own.

Tyrone parties in talks
20 February 2007
Tyrone county board officials and representatives of the players and team-management have met to thrash out their differences.
A row over chairman Pat Darcy's call on the GAA to ignore the GPA's request for official recognition saw the O'Neill County players take umbrage.A meeting between the two sides was held last night (Monday) with Mickey Harte and the football and hurling captains Brian Dooher and Barry Winters sitting down with the county chairman and treasurer.
http://www.hoganstand.com/Tyrone/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=73094

QuoteIts obvious the GPA understand the level of greed within Croke Park

Would you care to expand on this mind boggling statement? Greed in Croke Park? Taking in money to redevelop grounds, provide grants to clubs, reinvest in the association - the greedy hoors.

Im not against Tyrone hurlers, but Id love to know do they put in the same effort as the footballers or are they a gatherup.  Excuse my ignorance but I was once told that a club football team put in as much work as the county hurlers.

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 21, 2007, 12:44:09 PM

QuoteIts obvious the GPA understand the level of greed within Croke Park

Would you care to expand on this mind boggling statement? Greed in Croke Park? Taking in money to redevelop grounds, provide grants to clubs, reinvest in the association - the greedy hoors.

I am saying seanie that Croke Park, in the interests of raising revenue, are killing our games slowly but surely at a local level (Minor and Senior level). Money to better our facilities is one thing but money can't buy the following

Regular League Programmes in the summer months with full squads
Well attended games at these regular fixtures
Decent preparation time prior to championship games
Players getting the appropriate ammount of rest between traning sessions/matches

Local communities are walking away from local GAA activities because it doesn't offer decent enough competitions in the summer months. It's the core GAA people who keep things alive but we are getting more and more frustrated by those who seem to only be convinced something's a good idea if there is money to be made at it. All that glitters is not gold.

I agree to a fair extent with you but I'm optimistic that things will take a change for the better. The novelty has worn off with the qualifiers and once the furore over the new Tommy Murphy Cup thing dies down and people get used to it then the intercounty scene will be more predictable. Nickey Brennan has vowed to improve matters in this area and I've a good bit of faith in him.

Quote from: realredhandfan on February 21, 2007, 02:31:36 PM
Im not against Tyrone hurlers, but Id love to know do they put in the same effort as the footballers or are they a gatherup.  Excuse my ignorance but I was once told that a club football team put in as much work as the county hurlers.

Very elitist comment there realredhandfan! I was once told that the Pope had three wives! You'd maybe be better doing a little research on the subject before throwing out a post like that!

Interesting to hear Brian McGuigan on Off the Ball last night. Some treatment by the County Board alright. Should be proud of themselves alright

What was Mc Guigan saying on off the ball?

answer the question bigpaul and Ill stop making elitist comments.

I never pretended to know anything about hurling(at any level)! But your previous  post was a disgrace!!!!