http://www.facebook.com/pages/Gaza-TV-News/119275738102852
http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/Gaza_TVNews/2010/05/31/Gaza-TVs-phlog-3-Dead-30-Injured
SHOWER OF B*STARDS
WATCH THIS NOW.....
LIVE ATTACKS
http://www.livestream.com/insaniyardim
This is Israel's last move...
Their time is finally up.
Live on Turkish TV, Israel have attacked a Turkish ship in International waters.
3 people are dead, and 50 injured.
bbc news showing coverage from turkish tv now.
Isreali authorities yet to comment.
sky now showing the story. Confirming two dead.
they say that that turks have subsequently attacked the isreali consulate in istanbul
They have every right to attack it.
They should raze it to the ground, along with every other Israhelli embassy world wide.
Israel have started the begining of a quick end.
The world have seen you for what you really are.
COLD HEARTED, MURDERING b**tards
10 now dead.
I just can't believe it......
Can't believe the news you told us on radio ulster just now john. Lets hope the world take action against these feckers. Lets see what clegg does now.
Madness. Shit....fan.....about to.
Reports here that 16 are dead.......unbelievable.
This is a another clear sign that Israel believes that it answers to no one. It is an act of war and let's see how the world react.
BBC Middle East report.....
Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship
Page last updated at 7:15 GMT, Monday, 31 May 2010 8:15 UK
E-mail this to a friendPrintable version Turkish TV footage appeared to show Israeli troops on board
More than 10 people have been killed after Israeli commandos stormed a convoy of ships carrying aid to the Gaza Strip, the Israeli army says.
Armed forces boarded the vessels overnight, clashing with some of the 600 protesters on board.
The incident happened about 40 miles (64 km) out to sea, in international waters.
The ships are carrying 10,000 tonnes of aid to try to break a long-standing Israeli-led blockade.
Israel says when its soldiers boarded they were attacked by the activists with knives, one of whom grabbed a soldier's gun.
"The people on the boats were very, very violent toward the soldiers," Israeli military spokeswoman Lt Col Avital Leibovich was quoted by AFP news agency as saying.
Organisers of the flotilla said at least 30 people were wounded in the incident. Israel says four of its officers were injured.
Audrey Bomse, a spokesperson for the Free Gaza Movement, which is behind the convoy, told the BBC Israel's actions were disproportionate.
"We were not going to pose any violent resistance. The only resistance that there might be would be passive resistance such as physically blocking the steering room, or blocking the engine room downstairs, so that they couldn't get taken over. But that was just symbolic resistance."
Israel says it will tow the boats to its port in Ashdod, from where it says the passengers will be deported.
Condemnation
Israeli government minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer expressed his "sorrow over all the deaths".
Most of the people on board the boats were Turkish.
Turkey said it "strongly condemn[ed] these inhumane practices of Israel", AFP reported.
In Turkey, dozens of protesters tried to storm the Israeli consulate in the Istanbul, while the Israeli ambassador has been summoned to the Turkish foreign ministry.
Turkish TV pictures taken on board the Turkish ship leading the flotilla appeared to show Israeli soldiers fighting to control passengers.
The footage showed a number of people, apparently injured, lying on the ground. It is not clear whether the fighting is continuing.
Al-Jazeera TV reported from the same ship that Israeli navy forces had opened fire and boarded the vessel, wounding the captain.
The Al-Jazeera broadcast ended with a voice shouting in Hebrew, saying: "Everybody shut up!"
'Provocation'
The six-ship flotilla left international waters off the coast of Cyprus on Sunday and was expected to arrive in Gaza later on Monday.
Israel had said it would stop the boats, calling the campaign a "provocation intended to delegitimise Israel".
Israel and Egypt tightened a blockade of Gaza after the Islamist movement Hamas took power there in 2007.
Israel says it allows about 15,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid into Gaza every week.
But the United Nations says this is less than a quarter of what is needed.
20 now dead, among them 9 Turkish, and the head of the Islamic Movement in Israel.
It is so ubelievable, I don't know what to say right now.
I wrote this letter to Clegg the other day.
Please feel free to modify it and take the time to send him an e mail.
cleggn@parliament.uk
libdemleader@parliament.uk,
cleggn@hotmail.co.uk
nickclegg@sheffieldhallam.org.uk,
leader@libdems.org.uk
Or you can telephone Nick Clegg at the following numbers:
Contsituancey office, 0114 230 9002
House of Commons, 0207 219 2371
Dear Mr Clegg,
I am writing this letter to you and asking for you to show your support for the International
Flotilla of ships that are currently UNDER SERIOUS threat while sailing towards Gaza. 750 people in 9 ships, loaded with 15,000 Tonnes of humanitarian aid are due to dock in Gaza on Monday morning.
Right now Nick, they are surrounded by 3 Israeli war ships, and they are in EXTREME DANGER.
You need to act Nick, and act with a sence of urgency for the safety of not only your fellow country men and women, but for the other 750 unarmed humanitarians on board.
The people on board pose NO THREAT, and should be allowed to sail safely into Gaza without
incident. 28 of the passengers are British, so you have a moral obligation in regards to their safety.
Nick, may I take this chance to remind you of your statements concerning Gaza and the siege,
from your article in the Gaurdian last year:
"The legacy of Operation Cast Lead is a living nightmare for one and a half million Palestinians squeezed into one of the most overcrowded and wretched stretches of land on the planet. And as Israel and Egypt maintain a near total blockade against Gaza, the misery deepens by the day."
You then you went on to say
"And what has the British government and the international community done to lift the blockade? Next to nothing. Tough-sounding declarations are issued at regular intervals but little real pressure is applied. It is a scandal that the international community has sat on its hands in the face of this unfolding crisis."
Well Nick, you know what, you are now the British Government. So, what are you going to do?
Are you going to call for an immediate end to the siege, or are you going to do what the previous
Government did, which was nothing? This time, the buck stops with you Nick.
So Nick, as you can see, it is now your turn to step up to the plate and be counted.
Today, the EU called for an immediate end to the siege, and for the flotilla to be allowed a safe passage into Gaza.
Will you join this voice?
Will you say "Enough Is Enough"?
Awaiting your response
Unbelievable that this would happen.
I believe the Irish boat was not part of the 6 which where part of this which is a small mercy for those involved from here.
Israeli Deputy foreign Minister on Sky News right now. Now the propaganda starts.
Madness.
I fear it will change nothing. Conveniently for Israel Turkey is a Muslim Country. There will be the usuall huffing and puffing but it'll change nothing. I wonder how many Palestinians will now die without this aid. It will also disrupt futher aid. >:(
John,
Let me say I am very sorry to hear what happened to your colleagues. RIP.
I think we all know what is coming now, Israel will try and blacken the names of the dead, link them to "terrorist" organisiations and claim they were attacked first. The yanks will lap that up most likely. Its pathetic and evil what these scumbags are allowed to do and then to hear them claim some moral high ground is disgusting. Ireland should expel all Israeli diplomats from this country immediately. I wouldn't have them about the place no more than i'd allow Nazis about the place.
Israelis knew what they were at alright, sure who's going to give a fcuk about a handful of Turkish Muslims? So long as there was no EU or US citizens, they knew they could get away with indiscriminate murder.
This is how one "proud Jew" sees it.....
http://twitter.com/DebbieSchlussel
I await now the formation of an international coalition of the willing to be assembled by the US to effect regime change in a rogue state, possessing weapons of mass destruction, acting in defiance of international law and UN resolutions and working actively to destabilise the world's most volatile region.
My sentiments exactly Hardy, translated, anyone who thinks that this is going to change anything is seriously deluded, the israelis have (troops) Jews planted at the head of all the western governments and big banks so that they can do what they want when they want.
Speechless, have just heard about this, this morning - 15 dead, now is the time to act against the terrorists that are the Israeli state! >:(
Folks, do me a favour and call the BBC Nolan show.
They have just had an Israeli spokesman on telling lie after lie, and they wouldn't put me on to refute his unfounded claims.
08459 55 56 78
Shame on them......
I was on at 6 30 this morning, a time when no one was listening.....................
There's just no words for these bastards. Good luck to Turkey in their retaliation.
No doubt the rest of the world will just sit by as usual.
Quote from: RealSpiritof98 on May 31, 2010, 09:58:29 AM
My sentiments exactly Hardy, translated, anyone who thinks that this is going to change anything is seriously deluded, the israelis have (troops) Jews planted at the head of all the western governments and big banks so that they can do what they want when they want.
Wrong way around. The heads of all the western governments have a country planted in the middle of the only place on earth they can't control from their own respective countries.
Quote from: Ulick on May 31, 2010, 09:30:30 AM
Israelis knew what they were at alright, sure who's going to give a fcuk about a handful of Turkish Muslims? So long as there was no EU or US citizens, they knew they could get away with indiscriminate murder.
9 Irish citizens on board.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0531/mideast.html
Define Irony?
Mr Martin said his department was seeking to confirm the safety of nine Irish passport holders
Wouldnt matter if they were Irish ships the Irish government would still do f**k all. Cowards.
Dirty shower of bastards. Uncle Sam's hands drips with blood.
Stephen Nolan is on 5Live replacing Victoria Derbyshire.
Phone 1500 909693
Text 85058
Not that it matters but were the Ships in Isreali waters when they were boarded?
19 now reported dead. This is simply unbelievable, something has to be done. This is getting much better coverage on Al Jazeera on Sky (channel 514) than on the BBC.
Tidy that one up, as i put it together 2 days ago, and send it to all the e mails provided:
Dear TD,
as you are probably aware, 11 Irish citizens are currently on board 9 ships that are sailing towards Gaza with humanitarian supplies.
3 of these citizens are fellow TD's, and no doubt you will be as concerned for their safety, as you would for the other 750 passengers on board.
Israel has issued serious threats to these people and their safety is in grave danger. This is a matter of extreme urgency, and we are calling on you to add your voice to the millions of other voices worldwide who are taking these threats seriously.
I am calling on you to publicly show your support for not only the 11 Irish citizens on board, but for the 750 others travelling, along with 15,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid destined for the stricken region of Gaza.
Gaza has been under a brutal illegal siege for nearly 4 years now, and every day in Gaza, 1.7 million people go without the everyday necessities that you and I take for granted. How would you like to live in the worlds largest prison camp? How would you like to live under the fear of constant attacks? Can you sit idly by and allow this to continue?
In the past 10 years, Ireland's contribution to peace in the Middle East has been to allow US war planes to land and re fuel at Shannon Airport on their way to the killing fields in Iraq and Afghanistan. Is this the legacy you would like to leave for your children?
If you have any grasp of Irish history, you will understand what occupation and oppression is like. Therefore, instead of rewarding Israel with membership of the OECD, allowing them to go unpunished for stealing our passports, spending millions on their weapons, and turning a blind eye to their inhumane treatment of the Palestinians for over 60 years, I would expect you to stand up and be counted. What side are you really on? The side of the oppressor, or the side of the oppressed?
Recently, the Irish Foreign affairs minister travelled to Gaza for lunch. When he crossed into Gaza, he refused to meet members of the democratically elected Government. This refusal was taken as a sign of Ireland not recognising democracy. Is this what Ireland has now reduced itself to?
As these ships and brave passengers sail towards Gaza with humanitarian supplies, may I remind you of a story from 1847:
During the famine, a Choctaw Native American Tribe sent $710 to aid the starving Irish people. They did this at a time when the rest of the world stayed silent to our suffering. How would you feel if they had been stopped, denied a chance to deliver this aid, attacked, arrested and deported for this kind and generous act?
The time has come to take a stand, and say "Enough Is Enough". Your continued silence on the brutal treatment of the Palestinians shall be taken as a show of support for Israel and it's brutal actions.
Show some bravery, courage and guts please, and for the sake of humanity, stand up to Israel and say "End The Siege, Or Else"?
I await your reply, and as I have stated before, your silence is a show of support for the oppression of 1.7 million people in Gaza.
Awaiting your relply
taoiseach@taoiseach.gov.ie; bertie.ahern@oireachtas.ie; michael.ahern@oireachtas.ie; noel.ahern@oireachtas.ie; bernard.allen@oireachtas.ie; chris.andrews@oireachtas.ie; barry.andrews@oireachtas.ie; sean.ardagh@oireachtas.ie; bobby.aylward@oireachtas.ie; james.bannon@oireachtas.ie; sean.barrett@oireachtas.ie; joe.behan@oireachtas.ie; john.browne@oireachtas.ie; aine.brady@oireachtas.ie; cyprian.brady@oireachtas.ie; johnny.brady@oireachtas.ie; pat.breen@oireachtas.ie; thomas.p.broughan@oireachtas.ie; niall.blaney@oireachtas.ie; richard.bruton@oireachtas.ie; ulick.burke@oireachtas.ie; joan.burton@oireachtas.ie; catherine.byrne@oireachtas.ie; thomas.byrne@oireachtas.ie; niall.collins@oireachtas.ie; pat.carey@oireachtas.ie; joe.carey@oireachtas.ie; deirdre.clune@oireachtas.ie; dara.calleary@oireachtas.ie; margaret.conlon@oireachtas.ie; paul.connaughton@oireachtas.ie; sean.connick@oireachtas.ie; mary.coughlan@oireachtas.ie; michael.creed@oireachtas.ie; joe.costello@oireachtas.ie; simon.coveney@oireachtas.ie; brian.lenihan@oireachtas.ie; seymour.crawford@oireachtas.ie; noel.coonan@oireachtas.ie; john.cregan@oireachtas.ie; lucinda.creighton@oireachtas.ie; jimmy.devins@oireachtas.ie; mary.hanafin@oireachtas.ie; john.curran@oireachtas.ie; michael.darcy@oireachtas.ie;
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Quote from: Denn Forever on May 31, 2010, 10:48:47 AM
Not that it matters but were the Ships in Isreali waters when they were boarded?
The ships were in International waters. The Israeli line is that their soldiers acted in self defence, they were attacked with sharp objects.
Quote from: Denn Forever on May 31, 2010, 10:48:47 AM
Stephen Nolan is on 5Live replacing Victoria Derbyshire.
Phone 1500 909693
Text 85058
Not that it matters but were the Ships in Isreali waters when they were boarded?
They were reported to be in international waters. Israel have as much care for sea borders as they do for land borders.
Surely they have no right to board ships in international waters anyway?
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 31, 2010, 10:56:13 AM
Surely they have no right to board ships in international waters anyway?
They send assasins across international borders under false passports without a problem. I'd say they can do what they want in international water.
The lies and spin coming from the Israelis would remind you of the British reaction in the aftermath of Bloody Sunday.
Quote from: Zapatista on May 31, 2010, 11:00:05 AM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 31, 2010, 10:56:13 AM
Surely they have no right to board ships in international waters anyway?
They send assasins across international borders under false passports without a problem. I'd say they can do what they want in international water.
I know they do what they want but they're really not allowed to are they.
news reports that One Irish person injured
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/one-irish-citizen-reported-injured-on-gaza-aid-ships-459807.html
Following protest taking place in Ireland.
Belfast – City Hall, 4pm
Derry – Guildhall 5pm
Dublin – The Spire 6pm
Cork – Daunt Square 1.30pm
Seems Twitter is barring #flotilla from it's trending topics. Friends in high places...
Quote from: Ulick on May 31, 2010, 11:13:48 AM
Following protest taking place in Ireland.
Belfast – City Hall, 4pm
Derry – Guildhall 5pm
Dublin – The Spire 6pm
Cork – Daunt Square 1.30pm
Pity they couldn't have organised the Belfast rally for lunchtime or after work 5pm, could have maximised the numbers.
Some International reaction.....
Reaction from around the world to Israel's attack:
Statement from the Turkish foreign ministry
The interception on the convoy is unacceptable ... Israel will have to bear the consequences of its actions.
We strongly condemn it and await an immediate explanation.
By targeting innocent civilians, Israel has once again clearly displayed that does not value human lives and peaceful initiatives.
We forcefully condemn these inhumane activities by Israel.
The incident that occurred in open sea which is a gross breach of international law, could cause irrevocable consequences for our relations.
We wish to express our condolences to the bereaved families of the deceased, and swift recovery to the wounded.
Ismail Haniya, Hamas leader in Gaza
The government of Hamas call on Palestinians to carry out a total strike in Gaza and West Bank to show solidarity and protest the Israeli crimes.
We request emergency session for the UN Security Council, Arab League and Islamic Conference and we demand the Palestinian Authority to stop all forms of negotiations.
The government decided to grant those on board Freedom ships the medal of honour.
We appeal to the UN to withdraw from the Quartet.
The government has decided to name the May 31 "the freedom day". We demand the Arab League to carry out all decisions to stop the siege of Gaza.
We say to those heroes that the essence of your honourable blood has reached us before the aids you are carrying to us.
We salute everyone on board the Freedom ships.
Salam Fayad, Palestinian prime minister
Israel went beyond all that could be expected.
This [attack] is a transgression against all international covenants and norms and it must be confronted by all international forums.
Statement from the Palestinian presidency
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas condemns the crime perpetrated by the occupation authorities against international solidarity activists aboard the Freedom Flotilla.
The Palestinian leadership is closely following the developments and the President calls on the United Nations to confront Israel, which is disregarding all international laws and norms.
The attack on the Flotilla is an attack against humanity.
This incident will have grave consequences in the region and the world.
Statement from the Arab League
Secretary General Amr Moussa has called for an emergency meeting at the League's headquarters in Cairo on June 1.
The attack clearly shows Israel's aggressive nature and its disrespect to international and humanitarian rules and laws.
We call on the international community to take immediate steps against Israel, a rogue state that practices all forms of terrorism and piracy, and instigates tension and instability in the region and in the middle of the Mediterranean sea.
Saad Hariri, Lebanese prime minister
The Israeli attack on the aid convoy is a dangerous and crazy step that will exacerbate tensions in the region.
Lebanon firmly denounces this attack and calls on the international community, notably major powers ... to take action in order to end this continued violation of human rights and threat to international peace.
Spokesperson for EU's foreign policy chief
High Representative Catherine Ashton expresses her deep regret at the news of loss of life and violence and extends her sympathies to families of the dead and wounded.
On behalf of the European Union she demands a full enquiry about the circumstances in which this happened.
The continued policy of closure is unacceptable and politically counter-productive. She calls for an immediate, sustained and unconditional opening of the crossing for the flow of humanitarian aid, commercial goods and persons to and from Gaza.
Guido Westerwelle, German foreign minister
I am deeply concerned about the events last night in the waters off Gaza ... These are disconcerting initial reports.
The foreign ministry is now working to establish the full facts of what happened.
Diego Lopez Garrido, Spain's secretary of state for EU affairs
The Israeli storming of a flotilla of activist ships heading for Gaza is unacceptable and very serious event.
We have have summoned the Israeli ambassador [to Spain] to give us explanations and, of course, we will investigate and will start handling this matter immediately.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iranian president
[The attack was an] inhuman Zionist regime action against Gazans.
Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani, Emir of Qatar
The Israeli act of piracy against Arab and foreign activists who tried to break an non humanitarian unjust siege imposed on our fellow citizens in Gaza Strip, for no reason but they exercised their democratic right of choice.
The crimes purportrated this morning against the civilians supporting the Palestinians remind us of the unjust siege the open bleeding wound in the Strip; and all those who preach freedom, justice and democracy are required now to move and act to break this siege so the bloods of those free men do not go down the drains.
This is also message addressed to the Arab states who were brought to the moment of justice by those free men on board.
Micheal Martin, Irish foreign affairs minister
I am gravely concerned at the reports emerging of the storming of a Turkish ship this morning by Israeli commandos.
My department is seeking to establish the full facts of what has occurred and confirm the safety of the eight Irish nationals who sailed with the
Turkish-led flotilla.
The reports of up to 15 people killed and 50 injured, if confirmed, would constitute a totally unacceptable response by the Israeli military to what was a humanitarian mission attempting to deliver much needed supplies to the people of Gaza.
Statement from Britain's Stop The War Coalition
The action should see Israel condemned under international law.
Israel has repeatedly flouted law and public opinion worldwide in its treatment of the Palestinians.
The decision by Israel to attack the flotilla with such loss of human life shows it is arrogant and deadly intent in opposing any aid to the Palestinians.
Navi Pillay, UN high commissioner for human rights
I am shocked by reports that humanitarian aid was met with violence early this morning reportedly causing death and injury as the boat convoy approached the Gaza coast.
The blockade keeps undermining human rights on a daily basis.
The current situation falls far short of what is necessary for the population to lead normal and dignified lives.
I condemn once again the indiscriminate firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel.
NASTY ZIONISTS
Shocking but NOTHING will be done, Israel can do what it wants', all condemnation is welcome but won't change the way these bastards operate.
I'm honestly shocked and disgusted by this action. Don't know, why as Israel have form. This is way beyond anything before. f**king animals. I hope that the rest of the world's eyes are finally opened to the actions of these bastards and action is taken against them.
***** AFTER 1 PERSON WAS KILLED, A WHITE FLAG WAS RAISED. iSRAEL KILLED A FURTHER 19, AND COUNTING. ********
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB-Mk4bFz-U&feature=player_embedded#!
Hassan Ghani is a very good friend of mine, and he is one brave reporter.
Israel......................... Your time is now up. Get your coat
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/radioulster
I'm going on radio ulster NOW
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 31, 2010, 11:03:20 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on May 31, 2010, 11:00:05 AM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 31, 2010, 10:56:13 AM
Surely they have no right to board ships in international waters anyway?
They send assasins across international borders under false passports without a problem. I'd say they can do what they want in international water.
I know they do what they want but they're really not allowed to are they.
I think they can. There is nobody to police International waters. It's each to their own out there I think. That's why all the drug swaps and transfer of weapons are done out there. I wouldn't be surprised if these international waters are actually Palestinian waters occupied by Israel.
Dixie is giving it to them - go on dixie
Keep her going John. Don't let them spread their lies.
Shut your hole wendy
This is unreal stuff- That Israeli guy is blatantly lying
Quote from: Declan on May 31, 2010, 12:12:17 PM
This is unreal stuff- That Israeli guy is blatantly lying
I'm not even interested in hearing their excuses.
"they have a right to defend themselves" ???
Jesus H F*CKING Christ, who is this c*nt. Israel has a right to defend itself? Defend itself from what, humanitarian aid?
Now the spin is that they should have known that any attempt to gain access to Gaza would meet Israeli resistance - Jaysus
A complete ballbag, "I'm not taking anyone's side", what a p***k.
get that f**king p***k off it, George is he? no, here's george now
Robert was that last lunatic
Are there any other protests planned?
Not surprised but deeply saddened by these actions. I'm afraid it's time this rogue state was taken in hand. Of course that won't happen. It will be hilarious watching Martin and our other impotent politicians wringing their hands and crying about this. Hypocrites all.
who's the stoop?
just been watching the pictures fro the Turkish reporter on the ship, absolute disgrace what they have done. I have heard condemnation from some countries, has the US said anything yet?
giveherdixie, did you receive a reply from you letter to Nick Clegg?
I love people who ring up a radio station and start their comments with "I don't follow the Israel palestine debate that closely but..." and then proceed to talk shite.
Shocking stuff, Isreal obviously see themelves as untouchable and have no respect for human life of any nation.
I'd be surprised if nothing more is done but a public dressing down by all the major nations and a "pull the horns in till this blows over" dressing down behind closed doors.
Has the world ever been in such a high level since the end of WWII, the whole middle east is like a powder keg with ongoing conflict in Iraq and Afganiskan, Korea's could kick off at any stage it seems if one wrong move made by either side, africa seems to as far from been a develop continent as ever. Worrying times.
Did yous hear that, someone text in Israel are the lords people and the lord will return to Israel?
Someone else texted well done to Israel. Who are these wankers.
We need to take to the streets. If we believe what we are saying about our politicians and that they will do nothing then we must take action ourselves and force their hands.
Protest the Israeli Murders! Demos Today!
The Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign has called a protest for this evening at 6pm, assembling at the Spire on O'Connell Street, Dublin 1 which will then march to the Israeli Embassy in Ballsbridge. Speakers at the event will be Aengus O Snodaigh TD and Chris Andrews TD, both of whom were refused access to the flotilla by the Cypriot authorities after coming under severe pressure from Israel. The IPSC is calling on people in Ireland to show their outrage at this murderous attack against unarmed solidarity activists by coming out on the streets today.
http://www.ipsc.ie/
Not 10 minutes later and we're onto the light hearted section on talk back
Its just sound bites to media heads.
Quote from: theskull1 on May 31, 2010, 12:41:34 PM
Not 10 minutes later and we're onto the light hearted section on talk back
Its just sound bites to media heads.
Wendy Austin has destroyed Talkback.
You don't send Commando's onto boats and expect anything other than cold blooded murder. The self defence argument is an absolute nonsense.
All is right with the world - the US "deeply regrets"...
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/white-house-deeply-regrets-loss-of-life-on-gaza-flotilla-1.293299 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/white-house-deeply-regrets-loss-of-life-on-gaza-flotilla-1.293299)
Here are a few links for everyone to watch and listen to.
You can make up your own minds as to the truth
http://vodpod.com/watch/3739809-a-compilation-israel-attacks-freedom-flotilla-to-gaza-in-international-waters-10-videos
http://vodpod.com/watch/3739810-the-moment-of-the-attack-on-the-freedom-flotilla-in-international-waters
http://vodpod.com/watch/3738218-israel-attacks-freedom-flotilla-on-international-waters-killing-two-and-wounding-dozens
http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/Gaza_TVNews/2010/05/31/Gaza-TVs-phlog-George-Galloway-Speaks-Out
http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/Gaza_TVNews/
Quote from: give her dixie on May 31, 2010, 05:21:29 AM
They have every right to attack it.
They should raze it to the ground, along with every other Israhelli embassy world wide.
Israel have started the begining of a quick end.
The world have seen you for what you really are.
COLD HEARTED, MURDERING b**tards
HERE HERE. Dixie, any news on what people can do to protest/lend support??
(http://i2.bebo.com/024b/13/large/2006/12/08/21/2489386108a2785500277b515431747l.jpg)
Just got an e-mail there now saying to gather at the City Hall at 2pm, is there a bit of confusion about the time?
In other news:
Israel stations nuclear missile subs off Iran
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7140282.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7140282.ece)
George Galloway, speaking from Texas:
http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/Gaza_TVNews/2010/05/31/Gaza-TVs-phlog-George-Galloway-Speaks-Out
I am doing a UTV interview for the 6pm, and speaking at a rally at the City Hall at 4pm.
See you there if you can make it.
In our thousands, in our millions, we are all Palestinians.
F**k the oil leak, where's Obama now! The Israeli arrogance is frightening.
Human rights lawyers saying that Turkey should be claiming the right to lead an investigation performed under Turkish Law, as the vessel all this happened on was Turkish in international waters. This could mean UN Sec Council could call for all evidence and the names of all IDF troops involved. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Hopefully the World will stand up and take notice. Human rights have long being taken away from GAZA and Palestine. The Israelis are like the brits of 30 yrs ago and are shown them for what they really are. A shower of evil dictators. Really hope this backfires on them with action from the world.
it's a huge own goal for Israel. The PR was already bad after the attack on gaza in 2009.
There has been a serious drift to the right and with it a huge build up of hatred towards the Palestinians in Israel since the failure of the 2000 talks and it comes out in the open at times like this. The only answer is sanctions.
Someone said this is Israel's sharpeville. It will gain the attention of millions of people around the world. Things will never be the same again.
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2010, 03:07:16 PM
it's a huge own goal for Israel. The PR was already bad after the attack on gaza in 2009.
There has been a serious drift to the right and with it a huge build up of hatred towards the Palestinians in Israel since the failure of the 2000 talks and it comes out in the open at times like this. The only answer is sanctions.
Someone said this is Israel's sharpeville. It will gain the attention of millions of people around the world. Things will never be the same again.
I dont think they care!
Quote from: Ulick on May 31, 2010, 02:07:42 PM
In other news:
Israel stations nuclear missile subs off Iran
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7140282.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7140282.ece)
A perfectly rational deterrent strategy from a military point of view.
QuoteSomeone said this is Israel's sharpeville. It will gain the attention of millions of people around the world. Things will never be the same again
I'd like to agree with you but I won't hold my breath. As for negative PR the Israelis couldn't give 2 F***s what the rest of the world thinks of them. I'm waiting to see what our esteemed TD Mr Shatter says about this.
Quote from: Declan on May 31, 2010, 03:13:02 PM
QuoteSomeone said this is Israel's sharpeville. It will gain the attention of millions of people around the world. Things will never be the same again
I'd like to agree with you but I won't hold my breath. As for negative PR the Israelis couldn't give 2 F***s what the rest of the world thinks of them. I'm waiting to see what our esteemed TD Mr Shatter says about this.
That pathetic little worm will lay low and say nothing like he always does when even he can't defend Israels actions.
Let's face it we all know how this will pan out; international outrage for a short period, maybe even a sternly worded UN resolution, Israel promise an investigation which will report next year sometime conveniently scapegoating someone insignificant. Meanwhile Israel continues normal with their PR people pointing to retaliatory attacks as justification for their continuing brutalisation of Palestinians.
Quote from: Declan on May 31, 2010, 03:13:02 PM
QuoteSomeone said this is Israel's sharpeville. It will gain the attention of millions of people around the world. Things will never be the same again
I'd like to agree with you but I won't hold my breath. As for negative PR the Israelis couldn't give 2 F***s what the rest of the world thinks of them. I'm waiting to see what our esteemed TD Mr Shatter says about this.
Israel is like the moonies. It is a cult. Way out of line with what everyone else is thinking. It's getting worse with time. In the last 5 years there have been 2 wars, the 600 calorie a day Gaza diet, the Dubai assassination and now this. Sanctions are only a matter of time. the generation who put the Holocaust above Arab human rights will soon be dead. Israel is losing younger American Jews. All it can rely on is the nutcase Christian right. I wouldn't put money on Israel making it to 100.
Ive been watching various news channels for there reporting on this and the difference in the questioning of palestinian supporters is alot difference, BBC giving hardline questions seemingly in favour of israel, Sky the same stance with less agressive questioning, and then France24, Press TV questioning with a anti Israel connotation.
Having experienced Arab culture, sometimes watching the outcry for human rights, from likes of Syria, Iran etc... its sometimes hard to take, becuase of the way they give fck all human rights to women and children and foreigners. Ive worked in Qatar, Uae and been to beirut but whilst I support all those countries in this particular situation they are fair from innocent in terms of human rights.
Clearly the palestinains are the real victims when only a quarter of the aid needed to survive is allowed in by Israel. Construction supplies are illegal under Israeli control. There is talk that attack was planned and the assianations were targetted.
This world will not answer the call because no really cares enough as its our back garden, sure when human rights were a issue up North fck all Irish answered the call. Ulick probably has it right.
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2010, 04:15:38 PM
Quote from: Declan on May 31, 2010, 03:13:02 PM
QuoteSomeone said this is Israel's sharpeville. It will gain the attention of millions of people around the world. Things will never be the same again
I'd like to agree with you but I won't hold my breath. As for negative PR the Israelis couldn't give 2 F***s what the rest of the world thinks of them. I'm waiting to see what our esteemed TD Mr Shatter says about this.
Israel is like the moonies. It is a cult. Way out of line with what everyone else is thinking. It's getting worse with time. In the last 5 years there have been 2 wars, the 600 calorie a day Gaza diet, the Dubai assassination and now this. Sanctions are only a matter of time. the generation who put the Holocaust above Arab human rights will soon be dead. Israel is losing younger American Jews. All it can rely on is the nutcase Christian right. I wouldn't put money on Israel making it to 100.
Sanctions against Israel will never happen.
Maybe not from the West, but if the Turks who have an army worthy of the name start flexing its muscle in the region then we're into very dangerous territory.
All it'll need is the Turks to take the lead and it'll not take long for the likes of the Syrians etc to row in behind them then Barack will need to show where he truely stands on the issue. For all his talk the Israelis must still be very confident of having the support of Uncle Sam's army or they'd have thought long and hard over this one.
Quote from: J70 on May 31, 2010, 04:24:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2010, 04:15:38 PM
Quote from: Declan on May 31, 2010, 03:13:02 PM
QuoteSomeone said this is Israel's sharpeville. It will gain the attention of millions of people around the world. Things will never be the same again
I'd like to agree with you but I won't hold my breath. As for negative PR the Israelis couldn't give 2 F***s what the rest of the world thinks of them. I'm waiting to see what our esteemed TD Mr Shatter says about this.
Israel is like the moonies. It is a cult. Way out of line with what everyone else is thinking. It's getting worse with time. In the last 5 years there have been 2 wars, the 600 calorie a day Gaza diet, the Dubai assassination and now this. Sanctions are only a matter of time. the generation who put the Holocaust above Arab human rights will soon be dead. Israel is losing younger American Jews. All it can rely on is the nutcase Christian right. I wouldn't put money on Israel making it to 100.
Sanctions against Israel will never happen.
Sanctions are inevitable. There will never be a Palestinian state. Israel has built to ensure there can't be. Israel has a choice between giving the vote to the Palestinians or the alternative which is apartheid. Israel is now running a system of apartheid in the occupied territories. Liberal democracies won't touch it once the facade about peace runs out of road and the 2 state solution is seen for the dead letter it is. Israel is no more rational than north Korea. Alan Shatter and Alan Dershowitz and the rest of that generation will stand up for Israel no matter what but once they die there will be nobody to replace them. the hypocrisy of the world's only Jewish democracy running a system of apartheid will turn off more and more people to the point where action will become inevitable.
Avigdor lieberman is just the start. In time Netanyahu will come to be seen as a moderate and Sahron as a visionary. That is how bad things will get for Israel.
the other thing is that nobody wants to emigrate to Israel any more. why not? It's not the kind of place you want to rear your children.
Put all of the trends into a formula and run them for 20 years. Israel is finished.
Been watching the news here in the states and not a mention. Its a total disgrace what these scumbags have done to innocent people. Trying to email CNN at the minute.
CNN actually covering it now,
Fcuk that was quick. Must have been some email u sent them!
These Israeli Nazi bastards should be made international pariahs like the South African regime was ... sanctions brought down apartheid once, they can do so again
Quote from: red hander on May 31, 2010, 05:11:39 PM
These Israeli Nazi b**tards should be made international pariahs like the South African regime was ... sanctions brought down apartheid once, they can do so again
It would be great for something like that to happen again. It just needs something to kick start the campaign and grab people's attention across Ireland, akin to the Dunnes Stores picket in Dublin for the S. African boycott.
NATO Charter
Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Article 6 (1)
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
Dare say the Yanks and Brits will be backtracking on that agreement as quickly as they can.
As numbed as we are to Israel this is unfeckingbelievable.
They will create noise - " defending themselves etc " ...and ultimately sanction the commandos if that is what it takes to get away with it.
Normally Israel has a keen sense of Realpolitik, this suggests that they have become complacent. They have been particular allies of Turkey, yet they are treating the people on this ship in the same way as Palestinians.
The title of this thread says 20 people have been killed and now the news is reporting 9 people are dead - does anyone know the correct figure at this stage?
or maybe they want a war now. The west is an economic basket case.
Israel military sensor is blocking release of information on deaths.
I'm not sure if I'd blindly accept the simplistic notion that they are becoming complacent.
I wonder are they trying to crank up the tentions in the region? Could they be trying to provoke a military response from Iran for instance. Truth is I don't know enough to have a view on what they are up to.
Dixie, it's being reported on Al Jazeera that the MV Rachel Corrie is still proceeding toward Gaza - can you confirm?
The use of the word " activist " on news reports rather than " humanitarian" is pissing me off.
Israel has been beating the war drums for the past 18 months....just itching to have a go at any of the following.......
Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and in particular Iran, and just lately they attempted to drag Saudi Arabia into the equation.
It suits their agenda to have them against the entire Arab world, and if any attack on Israel happens then they can let loose, full in the knowledge that America will have to back them.
It is very sad that it has taken these deaths to really bring world attention to the treatment of the people of Gaza.
shocking, makes my blood boil that they would do this but not surprising, the laws that apply to the rest of us do not apply to the chosen race. state sponsored murder pure and simple and israel of course will take no responsibility. israel always has to play the zero sum game, there will be no just and equitable middle east solution unless israel is forced into one. may the dead rest in peace..
Quote from: armaghniac on May 31, 2010, 05:56:05 PM
Normally Israel has a keen sense of Realpolitik, this suggests that they have become complacent. They have been particular allies of Turkey, yet they are treating the people on this ship in the same way as Palestinians.
the foreign minister is to the right of Putin and it is the most extremist government in the last 10 years. Even under a lefty government they went to war in 2006 and 2009.
Mind you on researching the matter they actually killed 34 on an US navy ship in the past and that seems to have been forgotten.
The governments are going to do f**k all.
What can the ordinary people do to protest, help etc
And now Netanyahu says he 'regrets' the deaths? Like, I'm sorry for burping at dinner tonight. It's time those gung ho Eastern Europeans living in Palestine were brought to book. These fellahs on the ships were journalists, politicians, lawyers, not 'activists'. Anyhow, what does it matter - an illegal attack in international waters, a total act of war. And they think they will get away with it? Well, will they?
Down South - you do no favour to the people who died today with that kind of rubbish talk, in fact you undermine what they stand for. If I was you I'd delete it. We're all angry but lets stick to the facts as best we can.
Hello Mr Times
Down south . Please remove that post. You are discrediting a very important thread. If u feel strongly on the matter please start another thread
Post removed. It was not my intention to discredit this thread.
Quote from: Down South on May 31, 2010, 09:23:54 PM
Post removed. It was not my intention to discredit this thread.
Bloody disgraceful comment...
I deleted my post with it quoted, we shouldnt reduce ourselves to Israel's level or the nazis no matter how angry we are.
Check out ...
http://www.hedyepstein.com/abouthedy/
Quote from: bcarrier on May 31, 2010, 09:29:40 PM
Its not deleted yet DS.
Anyway what seanie said.
There was another one! He could do a bit more deleting!
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 31, 2010, 09:16:23 PM
Down south . Please remove that post. You are discrediting a very important thread. If u feel strongly on the matter please start another thread
he has removed the post, now will you and myles remove it in ye're quotes. ta
Done.
http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/irish-boat-the-mv-rachel-corrie-proceeding-to (http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/irish-boat-the-mv-rachel-corrie-proceeding-to)
Niamh Moloughney of the Free Gaza Movement has just sent the following message :
>> Ok just got word from Derek,
>> they have all agreed to take the Rachel Corrie to Gaza as intended,
>> she's 2 days away, it's a Malaysian & Irish partnership
>> on board we have Denis Halliday, Mairead Maguire, Derek & Jenny Graham, Fiona Thompson (film)
>> and Mathias Chang human rights lawyer, Malaysian MP & media - bios attached
>> The Malaysians are serious contenders- they are very close to their government & have FULL support.
>> We have 2 days to turn this outrage into a victory & get the Rachel Corrie into Gaza with the support of the world
>> and open this sea route.
>> Will get press release together when I finish work - hopefully can stay awake!
>> all the best,
>> Niamh
If the siege is over some good might come from this.
However Id be afraid letting the irish ship in is an exercise in damage limitation PR.
Despite the international outrage Israel and more significantly the US care nothing for the views of foreign nations. They work to their own agendas and sadly nothing else matters.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on May 31, 2010, 08:38:53 PM
Quote from: Down South on May 31, 2010, 08:31:37 PM
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on May 31, 2010, 08:27:53 PM
Anyhow, what does it matter - an illegal attack in international waters, a total act of war. And they think they will get away with it? Well, will they?
Who is actually going to do anything about it though? America wont, which means Britain couldn't, even if it wanted to. The French will make a few noises, but when it comes to real action they hide.
Send the Germans in to finish the job.
Is that a reference to the holocaust? If so, hang your head.
That is a microcosm of the attitude that prevails on this board with some posters when they talk about Israelis.
The yanks and indeed the rest of the world
HAVE TO lay the wood to Israel after this action, massive sanctions need to be imposed and however gave the go ahead needs to do some serious time, that said, I have no confidence that the worlds governments will do anything to hold them accountable other than a slap on the wrist.
Myles, your post containing Down South's comment is still visible.
Plenty of Israelis I have met are lovely people and many don't condone the actions of their govt/army.
Quote from: under the bar on May 31, 2010, 10:36:52 PM
Plenty of Israelis I have met are lovely people and many don't condone the actions of their govt/army.
Also seen on Sky's coverage of the protests in London a group of Orthodox/ Hassedic adding their condemnation of what happened to the Flotilla.
Heartening.
The speel from the Israeli spokespeople so reminds me of the British after Bloody Sunday. I fear there won't be a word about this in a week's time. Obama the great saviour has been some let down... useless cnut.
What would you do if you were Obama seeing as you know it all?
Quote from: longrunsthefox on May 31, 2010, 10:43:05 PM
The speel from the Israeli spokespeople so reminds me of the British after Bloody Sunday. I fear there won't be a word about this in a week's time. Obama the great saviour has been some let down... useless cnut.
Maybe the truth will come out in 38 years.
As for Obama, the world had great hope for him. Seems he is just another typical US President. Deeply disappointed.
I think Obama has his own problems with the BP oil spill.
Quote from: Minder on May 31, 2010, 10:45:45 PM
I think Obama has his own problems with the BP oil spill.
Every Government faces multiple problems everyday that needs their attention. Anyway, not too hard to release a Press Statement to condemn the Israelis.
Quote from: ziggysego on May 31, 2010, 10:49:38 PM
Quote from: Minder on May 31, 2010, 10:45:45 PM
I think Obama has his own problems with the BP oil spill.
Every Government faces multiple problems everyday that needs their attention. Anyway, not too hard to release a Press Statement to condemn the Israelis.
What difference would a press release penned by an aide make? It's just a cosmetic exercise.
What does anyone expect from Obama? The US president will always be a puppet of the power-brokers in the US most of whom are Jewish!
Quote from: Minder on May 31, 2010, 10:51:32 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on May 31, 2010, 10:49:38 PM
Quote from: Minder on May 31, 2010, 10:45:45 PM
I think Obama has his own problems with the BP oil spill.
Every Government faces multiple problems everyday that needs their attention. Anyway, not too hard to release a Press Statement to condemn the Israelis.
What difference would a press release penned by an aide make? It's just a cosmetic exercise.
For too long the US, for want of a better word, shown favour with Israel on these matters and other. The world needs to know where the US thinking is now.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 31, 2010, 10:44:26 PM
What would you do if you were Obama seeing as you know it all?
Condemn the murders and back a un resolution against Israel instead of vetoing them. Maybe stop selling weapons to Israel. Revolutionary I know....
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 31, 2010, 10:56:45 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 31, 2010, 10:44:26 PM
What would you do if you were Obama seeing as you know it all?
Condemn the murders and back a un resolution against Israel instead of vetoing them. Maybe stop selling weapons to Israel. Revolutionary I know....
What kind of resolution? Do you think he should take his own administration down to do the right thing or hang in there and try to change things? I don't know what my answer is. I'm hoping his not meeting Netanyahu is significant (I couldn't have seen the meeting being cancelled if it happened under GWB's watch) and that this incident will lead to his administrationfacing up to this issue for once and for all. I like the guy and hope I'm right. I just think we need to realise the difficulties he faces.
I realise that might look naive to many. I'm not naive, just hopeful that in time somethnig approaching the right thing can and will be done.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 31, 2010, 11:05:28 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 31, 2010, 10:56:45 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 31, 2010, 10:44:26 PM
What would you do if you were Obama seeing as you know it all?
Condemn the murders and back a un resolution against Israel instead of vetoing them. Maybe stop selling weapons to Israel. Revolutionary I know....
What kind of resolution? Do you think he should take his own administration down to do the right thing or hang in there and try to change things? I don't know what my answer is. I'm hoping his not meeting Netanyahu is significant (I couldn't have seen the meeting being cancelled if it happened under GWB's watch) and that this incident will lead to his administrationfacing up to this issue for once and for all. I like the guy and hope I'm right. I just think we need to realise the difficulties he faces.
I realise that might look naive to many. I'm not naive, just hopeful that in time somethnig approaching the right thing can and will be done.
Netanyahu cancelled the meeting, not Obama.
Quote from: ziggysego on May 31, 2010, 10:44:39 PM
Quote from: longrunsthefox on May 31, 2010, 10:43:05 PM
The speel from the Israeli spokespeople so reminds me of the British after Bloody Sunday. I fear there won't be a word about this in a week's time. Obama the great saviour has been some let down... useless cnut.
Maybe the truth will come out in 38 years.
As for Obama, the world had great hope for him. Seems he is just another typical US President. Deeply disappointed.
It was always going to be such ... a lot of wishful thinking by people who naively believed a black man in the white house would make a difference ... if he had really started to make a difference he would have been assassinated in no time
Quote from: ziggysego on May 31, 2010, 11:07:56 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 31, 2010, 11:05:28 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 31, 2010, 10:56:45 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 31, 2010, 10:44:26 PM
What would you do if you were Obama seeing as you know it all?
Condemn the murders and back a un resolution against Israel instead of vetoing them. Maybe stop selling weapons to Israel. Revolutionary I know....
What kind of resolution? Do you think he should take his own administration down to do the right thing or hang in there and try to change things? I don't know what my answer is. I'm hoping his not meeting Netanyahu is significant (I couldn't have seen the meeting being cancelled if it happened under GWB's watch) and that this incident will lead to his administrationfacing up to this issue for once and for all. I like the guy and hope I'm right. I just think we need to realise the difficulties he faces.
I realise that might look naive to many. I'm not naive, just hopeful that in time somethnig approaching the right thing can and will be done.
Netanyahu cancelled the meeting, not Obama.
You seem sure of that.
ff/lab and sf have condemned the attack but nothing from fg as far as i can see... any reason for that mr shatter?
Quote from: J70 on May 31, 2010, 04:24:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2010, 04:15:38 PM
Quote from: Declan on May 31, 2010, 03:13:02 PM
QuoteSomeone said this is Israel's sharpeville. It will gain the attention of millions of people around the world. Things will never be the same again
I'd like to agree with you but I won't hold my breath. As for negative PR the Israelis couldn't give 2 F***s what the rest of the world thinks of them. I'm waiting to see what our esteemed TD Mr Shatter says about this.
Israel is like the moonies. It is a cult. Way out of line with what everyone else is thinking. It's getting worse with time. In the last 5 years there have been 2 wars, the 600 calorie a day Gaza diet, the Dubai assassination and now this. Sanctions are only a matter of time. the generation who put the Holocaust above Arab human rights will soon be dead. Israel is losing younger American Jews. All it can rely on is the nutcase Christian right. I wouldn't put money on Israel making it to 100.
Sanctions against Israel will never happen.
Boycott is a sanction carried out by the people. Boycott all Israeli goods in particular lobby our TD's to stop buying Israeli weapons.
Quote from: under the bar on May 31, 2010, 10:53:41 PM
What does anyone expect from Obama? The US president will always be a puppet of the power-brokers in the US most of whom are Jewish!
I can't help but think that we have this the wrong way round. Israel is a puppet of the US and the West in general. Nobody could give a f**k about the Jewish right to their own State or the Zionist wackos. Israel is one big Embassy and Military Base slap bang in the middle of one of the wealthiest parts of the world. It is mantained to suit the west not to suit the Jews.
Quote from: Zapatista on May 31, 2010, 11:33:54 PM
Quote from: under the bar on May 31, 2010, 10:53:41 PM
What does anyone expect from Obama? The US president will always be a puppet of the power-brokers in the US most of whom are Jewish!
I can't help but think that we have this the wrong way round. Israel is a puppet of the US and the West in general. Nobody could give a f**k about the Jewish right to their own State or the Zionist wackos. Israel is one big Embassy and Military Base slap bang in the middle of one of the wealthiest parts of the world. It is mantained to suit the west not to suit the Jews.
That's the way I see it to. If there was nothing in it for the US & UK, they wouldn't give a f**k about Israel.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 31, 2010, 11:18:51 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on May 31, 2010, 11:07:56 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 31, 2010, 11:05:28 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 31, 2010, 10:56:45 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 31, 2010, 10:44:26 PM
What would you do if you were Obama seeing as you know it all?
Condemn the murders and back a un resolution against Israel instead of vetoing them. Maybe stop selling weapons to Israel. Revolutionary I know....
What kind of resolution? Do you think he should take his own administration down to do the right thing or hang in there and try to change things? I don't know what my answer is. I'm hoping his not meeting Netanyahu is significant (I couldn't have seen the meeting being cancelled if it happened under GWB's watch) and that this incident will lead to his administrationfacing up to this issue for once and for all. I like the guy and hope I'm right. I just think we need to realise the difficulties he faces.
I realise that might look naive to many. I'm not naive, just hopeful that in time somethnig approaching the right thing can and will be done.
Netanyahu cancelled the meeting, not Obama.
You seem sure of that.
He's right to be, he did.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 31, 2010, 11:05:28 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 31, 2010, 10:56:45 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 31, 2010, 10:44:26 PM
What would you do if you were Obama seeing as you know it all?
Condemn the murders and back a un resolution against Israel instead of vetoing them. Maybe stop selling weapons to Israel. Revolutionary I know....
What kind of resolution? Do you think he should take his own administration down to do the right thing or hang in there and try to change things? I don't know what my answer is. I'm hoping his not meeting Netanyahu is significant (I couldn't have seen the meeting being cancelled if it happened under GWB's watch) and that this incident will lead to his administrationfacing up to this issue for once and for all. I like the guy and hope I'm right. I just think we need to realise the difficulties he faces.
I realise that might look naive to many. I'm not naive, just hopeful that in time somethnig approaching the right thing can and will be done.
It's highly likely Obama won't be returned for a second term. He would be better just making all his decisions now. It would end his chances to be returned but he would achieve much more at that expence and let history judge him.
Quote from: Zapatista on May 31, 2010, 11:33:54 PM
Quote from: under the bar on May 31, 2010, 10:53:41 PM
What does anyone expect from Obama? The US president will always be a puppet of the power-brokers in the US most of whom are Jewish!
I can't help but think that we have this the wrong way round. Israel is a puppet of the US and the West in general. Nobody could give a f**k about the Jewish right to their own State or the Zionist wackos. Israel is one big Embassy and Military Base slap bang in the middle of one of the wealthiest parts of the world. It is mantained to suit the west not to suit the Jews.
The West being the sometime occupants of The White House, but not the current one.
Israel are trying to embarrass Obama and Hillary and are succeeding.
What happens next determines whether Obama passes or fails.
As an aside there seem to be lots of apparently unconnected events happening around the world at the same time. North Korea sinking a warship, India's internal strife, riots in Greece, economies on the brink worldwide etc. all added to the usual basket cases that are Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Israel.
Is a modern day Archduke Ferdinand lurking somewhere?
Vent your rightful indignations about this appalling act of Murder and Piracy, and then accept your impotency in the face of zionist and American power. Nothing meaningful will be done to hold those responsible accountable, the U.N. will issue a few pious platitudes, Western and Arab governments will add an Amen, and the whole incident will be put too bed quietly.
Quote from: muppet on June 01, 2010, 12:44:04 AM
Is a modern day Archduke Ferdinand lurking somewhere?
I'm trying to read between the lines as well muppet. Could be just paranoia. But I would not be surprised if long term strategists in these administrations are not looking at the other states natural resources and choreographing the situations that will bring about a conflict which would in their eyes provide them with justification to go in all guns blazing
Just after listening to dixie's piece on Talk Back earlier today. Fair John, you didn't let the Israeli representative away with any of his bullshit.
Couldn't believe some of the texts coming in though.
"I don't follow it on the news, but..."
"Well done Israel for standing up to terrorists"
and the most depressing was the fella that went off on a bible ranting about Christ returning to his people in Israel and anyone who condemns them will be judged at the gates of heaven. I mean... WFT, catch a grip!!!
Quote from: ziggysego on June 01, 2010, 01:12:18 AM
Just after listening to dixie's piece on Talk Back earlier today. Fair John, you didn't let the Israeli representative away with any of his bullshit.
Couldn't believe some of the texts coming in though.
"I don't follow it on the news, but..."
"Well done Israel for standing up to terrorists"
and the most depressing was the fella that went off on a bible ranting about Christ returning to his people in Israel and anyone who condemns them will be judged at the gates of heaven. I mean... WFT, catch a grip!!!
Read a book, or at least I started it, by a Jewish writer who travelled around the area talking to people from both sides of the divide. I had to stop reading as it wrecked my head. People were quoting Jacob, Job and Bill Clinton in the same sentences regarding local politics. They gave the writings of these Biblical prophets the same weighting in their arguments as Clinton and co.
It would be like us quoting Brian Lenihan, Niall of the Nine Hostages and Saint Patrick when discussing the Banking Crisis.
The Arabs interviewed didn't come across much better as everything discussed had to fit into their own Islamic ideology.
Day of disgrace for Israel
By URI AVNERY | ARAB NEWS
Published: May 31, 2010 22:51 Updated: May 31, 2010 22:51
This morning a crime was perpetrated in the middle of the sea, by order of the government of Israel and the IDF Command. A warlike attack against aid ships and deadly shooting at peace and humanitarian aid activists was carried out.
It is a crazy thing that only a government that crossed all red lines can do. "Only a crazy government that has lost all restraint and all connection to reality could do something like that — consider ships carrying humanitarian aid and peace activists from around the world as an enemy and send massive military force to international waters to attack them, shoot and kill.
"No one in the world will believe the lies and excuses which the government and army spokesmen come up with," said a Gush Shalom activist.
Gush Shalom activists together with activists of other organizations are to depart at 11:00 from Tel Aviv to protest in front of the prepared detention facility where the international peace activists will be brought.
Greta Berlin, the spokeswoman for the flotilla organizers located in Cyprus, told Gush Shalom activists that the Israeli commandos landed by helicopter on the boats and immediately opened fire.
This is a day of disgrace to the state of Israel, a day of anxiety in which we discover that our future was entrusted to a bunch of trigger-happy people without any responsibility. This day is a day of disgrace and madness and stupidity without limit, the day the Israeli government took care to blacken the name of the country in the world, adding convincing evidence of aggressiveness and brutality to Israel's already bad international image, discouraging and distancing the few remaining friends.
Indeed, today a provocation took place off the coast of Gaza — but the provocateurs were not the peace activists invited by the Palestinians and seeking to reach Gaza. The provocation was carried out by Navy ships commandos at the bidding of the Israeli government, blocking the way of the aid boats and using deadly force.
It is time to lift the siege on the Gaza Strip, which causes severe suffering to its residents. Today the Israeli government ripped the mask of its face with its own hands and exposed the fact that Israel did not "disengage" from Gaza. Real disengagement from the area does not go together with blocking the access to it or sending soldiers to shoot and kill and wound those who try to get there.
The state of Israel promised in the Oslo Accords 17 years ago to enable and encourage the establishment of a deep water port in Gaza, through which Palestinians could import and export freely to develop their economy. It's time to realize this commitment and open the Port of Gaza.
Only after the Gaza port will be open to free and undisturbed movement, just like the Ashdod and Haifa ports, will Israel really have disengaged from the Gaza Strip. Until then, the world will continue — and rightly so — to consider the Gaza Strip under Israeli occupation and the State of Israel as responsible for the fate of the people living there.
— Uri Avnery is a former Knesset member and also an activist in the Gush Shalom movement.
Hedley - he did remove it but you, stew and Myles (the other one) have continued to quote it - hence his original post is alive within yours! Can I again ask that you all remove this piece from your posts as they bring this important thread into disrepute.
As citizens of our individual countries, we at times become extremely frustrated by the policies of our governments that we deem unjust. We oftentimes feel powerless to change them as more and more of the governments and the politicians who run them become increasingly subservient to global corporate and banking interests. There is, however, one powerful weapon that if utilized collectively can accomplish far greater positive change than marches, protests and demonstrations. The weapon is the boycott of well targeted products
http://home.pacbell.net/halnet/Boycott%20Israeli%20Products%20Campaign.htm
The Ireland-Israel commercial relationship dates back to the foundation of the State of Israel. In terms of bilateral trade, growth has been steadily increasing as the two economies have developed.
http://www.moital.gov.il/NR/exeres/11E76928-6E01-4067-A49A-91172862977C.htm
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=366251123289
Ireland has spent nearly €14m on Israeli weapons in the last five years, new figures show.
But despite the apparent use of fake Irish passports in a murder carried out by Israeli agents, the Government does not intend to exclude Israeli companies from taking part in tender competitions.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-bought-836414m-of-weapons-from-israel-2161819.html
Listening to a maratime law professor from UCL on the radio there
Basically said that there was the "san remo manual" which covers armed conflict in blockade situations. Stated that IF the blockade of Gaza was deemed to be legal then Israel trying to enforce the blockade by boarding ships in international waters would be legal deemed as well. If the blockade was illegal (it's illegal if the blockade has a significantly negative impact on the well being of the people inside the area) then the boarding of the ships would be deemed illegal as well
The reasonable force argument was separate to this but again "basically" even if the blockade was legal they alway had to ensure that they used reasonable force to enforce it. So it would all come down to the intent of the commandos once they boarded the ship. If they boarded the ship with the intentions of harming those on board without provication then that act would be deemed as unreasonable force used to enforce the blockade. If on the other hand after being attacked they acted in self defense, then that would be a separate issue in law.
http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/52d68d14de6160e0c12563da005fdb1b/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce!OpenDocument (http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/52d68d14de6160e0c12563da005fdb1b/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce!OpenDocument)
Isn't it amazing how the law has this all sown up >:(
Was watching the news last night and couldn't believe what I was seeing. Its a disgrace that they will get away with this, the problem is though, that they will. The soldiers were attacked as soon as they stepped onto the ship (shouldn't have been on it in the first place-international waters etc), it gives the Yanks a get out clause. The soldiers who boarded came under attack and were defending their lives, this can be justified by the fact that a soldier was clearly seen being thrown overboard. What happened after was plain wrong in every sense but because of the attack on the soldiers this will be brushed under the carpet.
Quote from: mikasas on June 01, 2010, 09:28:11 AM
Was watching the news last night and couldn't believe what I was seeing. Its a disgrace that they will get away with this, the problem is though, that they will. The soldiers were attacked as soon as they stepped onto the ship (shouldn't have been on it in the first place-international waters etc), it gives the Yanks a get out clause. The soldiers who boarded came under attack and were defending their lives, this can be justified by the fact that a soldier was clearly seen being thrown overboard. What happened after was plain wrong in every sense but because of the attack on the soldiers this will be brushed under the carpet.
I think he/she was thrown from an upper to a lower deck rather than into the sea.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 01, 2010, 08:52:25 AM
As citizens of our individual countries, we at times become extremely frustrated by the policies of our governments that we deem unjust. We oftentimes feel powerless to change them as more and more of the governments and the politicians who run them become increasingly subservient to global corporate and banking interests. There is, however, one powerful weapon that if utilized collectively can accomplish far greater positive change than marches, protests and demonstrations. The weapon is the boycott of well targeted products
http://home.pacbell.net/halnet/Boycott%20Israeli%20Products%20Campaign.htm
The Ireland-Israel commercial relationship dates back to the foundation of the State of Israel. In terms of bilateral trade, growth has been steadily increasing as the two economies have developed.
http://www.moital.gov.il/NR/exeres/11E76928-6E01-4067-A49A-91172862977C.htm
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=366251123289
Ireland has spent nearly €14m on Israeli weapons in the last five years, new figures show.
But despite the apparent use of fake Irish passports in a murder carried out by Israeli agents, the Government does not intend to exclude Israeli companies from taking part in tender competitions.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-bought-836414m-of-weapons-from-israel-2161819.html
The vast majority of those goods/labels are readily available in the ME, so if they are not going to boycott them.....
Regardless of the legal jargon this was wrong.
There will always be justification for Israeli actions by our leaders. They are corrupted. It's time for the people to act.
Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on June 01, 2010, 09:35:36 AM
The vast majority of those goods/labels are readily available in the ME, so if they are not going to boycott them.....
Take a lead FFS.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 01, 2010, 09:36:56 AM
Regardless of the legal jargon this was wrong.
There will always be justification for Israeli actions by our leaders. They are corrupted. It's time for the people to act.
Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on June 01, 2010, 09:35:36 AM
The vast majority of those goods/labels are readily available in the ME, so if they are not going to boycott them.....
Take a lead FFS.
You are missing my point.....the Arab/Muslim world should be boycotting them.
Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on June 01, 2010, 10:02:50 AM
You are missing my point.....the Arab/Muslim world should be boycotting them.
Why? This is a Human Rights issue not a religous one.
Quote from: muppet on June 01, 2010, 12:44:04 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on May 31, 2010, 11:33:54 PM
Quote from: under the bar on May 31, 2010, 10:53:41 PM
What does anyone expect from Obama? The US president will always be a puppet of the power-brokers in the US most of whom are Jewish!
I can't help but think that we have this the wrong way round. Israel is a puppet of the US and the West in general. Nobody could give a f**k about the Jewish right to their own State or the Zionist wackos. Israel is one big Embassy and Military Base slap bang in the middle of one of the wealthiest parts of the world. It is mantained to suit the west not to suit the Jews.
The West being the sometime occupants of The White House, but not the current one.
Israel are trying to embarrass Obama and Hillary and are succeeding.
What happens next determines whether Obama passes or fails.
As an aside there seem to be lots of apparently unconnected events happening around the world at the same time. North Korea sinking a warship, India's internal strife, riots in Greece, economies on the brink worldwide etc. all added to the usual basket cases that are Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Israel.
Is a modern day Archduke Ferdinand lurking somewhere?
I was thinking this (the bit in bold) myself. Good to hear it from someone else.
Excellent post and more than slightly worrying.
Pat Kenny covering this now on RTE Radio 1. Interviewing people on the Irish boat and talking to the families of those already detained.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 01, 2010, 10:07:25 AM
Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on June 01, 2010, 10:02:50 AM
You are missing my point.....the Arab/Muslim world should be boycotting them.
Why? This is a Human Rights issue not a religous one.
Thanks for clearing that up ::)
The fact that there is no boycott here is what puzzles me.
Quote from: Maiden1 on June 01, 2010, 10:43:46 AM
It doesn't make sense what the Israelis did here. They have an extremely well oiled propaganda machine and usually have a they started it argument before they go in all guns blazing, even if for all the thousands of rockets they claim are being fired at Israel none ever seem to hit a built up area (considering how much of Israel is a built up area). Do the Israelis have a bigger strategy or are they just saying now 'F&*k you all we will do what we want and we don't care about PR exercises or how it looks anymore'.
Well I think they did e.g. preventing the European parliamentarians from boarding the ships in Cyprus. Their propaganda machine has been pretty slick so far, preventing communications from those on board the ships to ensure only the Israeli story gets out, releasing the edited video footage (without timestamps), releasing the pictures of the weapons (even if they are mostly kitchen utensils) and then muddying the waters with the claims they offered to allow the aid through (without mentioning their restrictions) and that they were fired on first. All of that is more than enough to allow the Jewish lobby to keep the US on board.
I'm still wondering what our government is doing about the kidnap of Irish citizens and their abduction to Israel, a place they had no intention of going to. Why is the Irish ambassador to the UN not raising the kidnap of Irish citizens at the security council, and demanding international sanctions against the perpetrators?
The abuse of our passports by Israeli agents was an indirect compromising of the security of our citizens. The seizure of our citizens on the high seas is an act of piracy and is an order of magnitude more serious. We should reasonably expect our government to defend our right to travel without let or hindrance and to protect us against attack, kidnapping and abduction. What did I pay €80 for a passport for?
No other state has molested Irish citizens in this way. When Irish citizens are kidnapped by guerillas or terrorists in other countries, we have Department Of Foreign Affairs officials, consuls and ambassadors on the job immediately. Where are they now? At the very least, we should be doing what Turkey is doing and telling the Israelis that an Air Corps plane will be landing in Tel Aviv in five hours time and they had better produce our citizens.
Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on June 01, 2010, 10:33:49 AM
Thanks for clearing that up ::)
The fact that there is no boycott here is what puzzles me.
It's the same reason there is no boycott anywhere. We don't know or we don't care enough.
I hope I'm wrong but I'd like to think it's nothing to do with arms contracts:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-bought-836414m-of-weapons-from-israel-2161819.html (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-bought-836414m-of-weapons-from-israel-2161819.html)
That usually works the other way. The supplier is afraid of pissing off the customer.
Here's a different view ... Jeruselam Times, currently front page ::)
Our World: Ending Israel's losing streak
By CAROLINE B. GLICK
06/01/2010 08:12
A straight line runs from the anti-Israel UN resolution passed last Friday and the Hamas flotilla.
Talkbacks (5)
These words are being written before the dust has settled on Monday morning's naval commando raid on the Gaza-bound Turkish flotilla of terror supporters. The raid's full range of operational failures still cannot be known. Obviously the fact that the mission ended with at least six soldiers wounded and at least 10 Hamas supporters dead makes clear that there were significant failures in both the IDF's training for and execution of the mission.
The navy and other relevant bodies will no doubt study these failures. But they point to a larger strategic failure that has crippled the country's capacity to contend with the information war being waged against it. Until this failure is remedied, no after-action investigation, no enhanced training, no new electronic warfare doodad will make a significant impact on Israel's ability to contend with the next Hamas flotilla.
IN THE space of four days, the country has suffered two massive defeats. A straight line runs between the anti-Israel resolution passed last Friday at the UN's Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty Review Conference and the Hamas flotilla. And in both cases, officials voiced "surprise" at these defeats.
Given the months-long build-up to the NPT review conference, and the weeks-long build-up to the Turkish-Hamas flotilla, that surprise cannot be attributed to a lack of information. What it points to, rather, is a cognitive failure of our leaders to understand the nature of the war being waged against us. And it is this fundamental failure of cognition that has landed six soldiers in the hospital, the nation's international reputation in tatters and its spokesmen searching for a way to describe a reality they do not understand.
The reality is simple and stark. Israel is the target of a massive information war, unprecedented in scale and scope. This war is being waged primarily by a massive consortium of the international Left and the Arab and Islamic worlds. The staggering scale of the forces aligned against us is demonstrated by two things.
The Hamas abetting Free Gaza Web site published a list of some 222 organizations that endorsed the terror-supporting flotilla. The listed organizations from the four corners of the earth include Jewish anti-Israel groups as well as Christian, Islamic and nonreligious anti-Israel groups. It is hard to think of any cause other than Israel-bashing that could unite such disparate forces.
The second indicator of the scope of the war is far more devastating than the list of groups that endorsed the pro-Hamas flotilla. That indicator is the fact that at the UN on Friday, 189 governments came together as one to savage Israel. There is no other issue that commands such unanimity. The NPT reviewconference demonstrated that the only way the international community will agree on anything is if its members are agreeing that Israel has no right to defend itself. Theconference 's campaign against Israel shows that the 222 organizations supporting Hamas are a reflection of the will of the majority of the nations of the world.
This war is nothing new. It has been going on since the dawn of modern Zionism 150 years ago. In many ways, it is just the current iteration of the eternal war against the Jewish people.
The red-green alliance's aims are twofold. It seeks to delegitimize Israel's right to exist and it seeks to make it impossible for Israel to defend itself. If these aims are met, Israel's destruction will become an inevitability.
UNTIL US President Barack Obama took office, Israel's one steady asset in this war was the US. Until last year, the US consistently refused to join the red-green alliance because its leaders recognized that the alliance's campaign was part and parcel of its campaign against US superpower status. Indeed, some US leaders recognized that the alliance's animus toward Israel stemmed from the same source as its rejection of American exceptionalism.
Dismally, what the US's vote in favor of the NPT review conference's final anti-Israel (and by default pro-Iranian) resolution makes clear is that under Obama, the US is no longer Israel's reliable ally. Indeed, what the US's vote shows is that the Obama administration's ideological preferences place it on the side of the red-green alliance. No amount of backpedalling by the Obama administration can make up the damage caused by its act of belligerence.
If Israel's leaders were better informed, they would have recognized a number of things in the lead-up to the conference. They would have realized that Obama's anti-nuclear conference in April, his commitment to a nuclear-free world, as well as his general ambivalence – at best – to US global leadership rendered it all but inevitable that he would turn on Israel. The truth is that Egypt's call for the denuclearization of Israel jibes with Obama's own repeatedly statedviews both regarding Israel and the US's own nuclear arsenal. Armed with this basic understanding of Obama's inclinations, Israel should have taken for granted that the NPTconference would target it. Consequently, in months preceding the conference , it should have stated loudly and consistently that as currently constituted, the NPT serves as the chief enabler of nuclear proliferation rather than the central instrument for preventing nuclear proliferation. North Korea exploited its status as an NPT signatory to develop its nuclear arsenal. Today Iran exploits its status as an NPT signatory to develop nuclear weapons. Unless the NPT is fundamentally revised, it will continue to serve as the primary instrument for nuclear proliferation.
Had this been Israel's position, it would have been able to undercut US arguments in favor of signing onto the final resolution. So too, such a position would have prepared Israel to cogently explain its rejection of the final resolution.
And that is the thing of it. The red-green alliance's aim at the NPT conference was to discredit Israel's deterrent capacity while delegitimizing its right to take preemptive action against Iran. Now, due to Israel's failure to make its case against the NPT in the months leading up to theconference , as our enemies use the US-supported final resolution to claim that our opposition to Iran's nuclear weapons program is hypocritical, we lack a cognitive framework for responding.
The fact that the government still doesn't get the point is made clear by its response to the decision. Its denunciation of the resolution makes no mention of the fact that the NPT regime itself has become the chief enabler of nuclear proliferation. So too, disastrously, in a clear bid to pretend away Obama's treachery, Israel actually applauded him for emptily criticizing the resolution he voted for. This response compounds the damage and ensures that the assault will continue.
AS TO the flotilla, the challenge it presented was nothing new. Israel has been confronted by suicide protesters for a decade now. The fact that these pro-Hamas activists intended to commit suicide to discredit Israel on camera was made clear by the fact that the Turkish organizers namedthe lead ship Rachel Corrie.
So too, the fact that IDF forces boarding the ships would be met by trenchant, violent opposition was knowable simply by looking at Turkey's role in the operation. First of all, the Turkish government-supported NGO behind the operation is IHH. As the US government, the Turkish government in the 1990s, the Investigative Project on Terrorism and countless other sources have proven, IHH is a terrorist organization with direct links to al-Qaida and Hamas. Its members have been involved in terrorist warfare from Chechnya and Bosnia to Iraq and Israel. The notion that IHH organizers would behave like radical leftist anti-Israel demonstrators on university campuses is simply ridiculous.
Moreover, there is Turkey's behavior to consider. Since Obama took office, Turkey's gradual slide into the Iranian axis has sped up considerably. Turkey's leading role in the flotilla, and the Erdogan government's ostentatious embrace of IHH – which just a decade ago Turkey banned from earthquake relief efforts in light of its violent, jihadist mission – made clear that the Erdogan regime would use any violence on board the ships as a way to strike a strategic blow at Israel's international standing.
In view of all of this, it is clear that the information strategy for contending with the flotilla was ill-conceived. Rather than attack Turkey for its facilitation of terrorism, and openly prepare charge sheets against the flotilla's organizers, crew and passengers for their facilitation of terrorism in breach of both domestic law and international law, the information efforts were largely concentrated on irrelevancies. Officials detailed all the humanitarian assistance Israel has provided Hamas-controlled Gaza. They spoke of the navy's commitment to use nonlethal force to take over the ships.
And now, in the aftermath of the lethal takeover of the flotilla, Israel's leaders stammer. Rather than demand an apology from the Turkish government for its support for these terrorists, Defense Minister Ehud Barak called his Turkish counterpart to talk over what happened. Rather than demand restitution for the terrorist assault against IDF troops, Israel has defended its troops' training in nonviolent crowd control.
These efforts are worse than worthless; they
make Israel appear whiny rather than indignant. And more depressingly, they expose a dangerous lack of comprehension about what has just occurred, and a concomitant inability to prepare for what will most certainly follow.
Israel is the target of a massive information war. For it to win this war, it needs to counter its enemies' lies with the truth.
The NPT has been subverted by the very forces it was created to prevent from acquiring nuclear weapons.
Hamas is a genocidal terrorist organization ideologically indistinguishable from al-Qaida. International law requires all states and non-state actors to take active measures to defeat it.
Israel is the frontline of the free world. Its ability to defend itself and deter its foes is the single most important guarantee of international peace. A strong Israel is also the most potent and reliable guarantor of the US's continued ability to project its power in the Middle East.
This is the unvarnished truth. It is also the beginning of a successful campaign to defang the massive coalition of nuclear proliferation- and terrorism-abettors aligned against Israel. But until our leaders finally recognize the nature of the war being waged against our country, these basic facts will remain ignored as we move from one stunning defeat to the next.
Quote from: Hardy on June 01, 2010, 11:35:15 AM
That usually works the other way. The supplier is afraid of pissing off the customer.
Unless they've got a particularly good deal. 14 million would be peanuts to the Israelis but a substantial chunk out of the Irish Defence Force budget.
I'd say it's part of a trade deal.
One which might invovle passports
Quote from: Ulick on June 01, 2010, 11:51:56 AM
Quote from: Hardy on June 01, 2010, 11:35:15 AM
That usually works the other way. The supplier is afraid of pissing off the customer.
Unless they've got a particularly good deal. 14 million would be peanuts to the Israelis but a substantial chunk out of the Irish Defence Force budget.
It totals around 300million a year for the state.
Israelis celebrating attack on Turkish Aid Ship - in front of Turkish Embassy,Tel Aviv
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1275348204 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1275348204)
Quote from: Maiden1 on June 01, 2010, 10:43:46 AM
It doesn't make sense what the Israelis did here. They have an extremely well oiled propaganda machine and usually have a they started it argument before they go in all guns blazing, even if for all the thousands of rockets they claim are being fired at Israel none ever seem to hit a built up area (considering how much of Israel is a built up area). Do the Israelis have a bigger strategy or are they just saying now 'F&*k you all we will do what we want and we don't care about PR exercises or how it looks anymore'.
Israel had to stop those ships from getting to Gaza and unloading their cargos. It is a ghetto that is being maintained by Israel and they want it kept that way. It is the beginning of the end for the Israeli occupation if those shops are allowed in, so they were stopped.
from a realpolitik perspective this is going to backfire badly in the international community. Israel relies on the US almost completely and the article in the nytimes http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01policy.html?hpw (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01policy.html?hpw) is actually a reasonable reflection of the position in which Obama administration finds itself with regard to its own constituents. With Mitchell's initiative due to kick off so soon- Gaza is now back in the spotlight and a tough stance to defend.
From the Israeli internal political perspective, in order to court public opinion this was almost inevitable, a fact that seems to be "justifiable".
If you were interested in the pure political capital here what if you step back for a bit and ask did anyone involved in the planning of this expedition expect that this group would make it to gaza and successfully distribute supplies? What chance of success did they give it- and was this made clear to all onboard? If you were organizing this trip and this was your cause, was it better to succeed or fail in this fashion? Does the international outcry justify the lives lost and the others put at risk?
Israel's position on Gaza is disgraceful personally I wonder if there were better ways of drawing attention to tht fact...
Israel should be rightly condemned and sanctioned as a result of this disgraceful action.
However, some of the comments on this thread talking of Jewish conspiracies and power-brokerage in western economies and governments is an outright disgrace.
Quote from: heganboy on June 01, 2010, 01:15:14 PM
from a realpolitik perspective this is going to backfire badly in the international community. Israel relies on the US almost completely and the article in the nytimes http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01policy.html?hpw (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01policy.html?hpw) is actually a reasonable reflection of the position in which Obama administration finds itself with regard to its own constituents. With Mitchell's initiative due to kick off so soon- Gaza is now back in the spotlight and a tough stance to defend.
From the Israeli internal political perspective, in order to court public opinion this was almost inevitable, a fact that seems to be "justifiable".
If you were interested in the pure political capital here what if you step back for a bit and ask did anyone involved in the planning of this expedition expect that this group would make it to gaza and successfully distribute supplies? What chance of success did they give it- and was this made clear to all onboard? If you were organizing this trip and this was your cause, was it better to succeed or fail in this fashion? Does the international outcry justify the lives lost and the others put at risk?
Israel's position on Gaza is disgraceful personally I wonder if there were better ways of drawing attention to tht fact...
I just wonder if the 1.5 million Palestinians in the Gaza strip have the space to step back and consider the RealPolitik of the situation.
From listening to Mairead Maguire on the radio this morning they calculated a 1 in 5 chance of getting through and they were all aware of this. Success for them is about breaking the blockade and showing solidarity with the Palestinians in Gaza, not necessarily on the amount of aid they manage to get through.
Quote from: Zapatista on May 31, 2010, 11:33:54 PM
Quote from: under the bar on May 31, 2010, 10:53:41 PM
What does anyone expect from Obama? The US president will always be a puppet of the power-brokers in the US most of whom are Jewish!
I can't help but think that we have this the wrong way round. Israel is a puppet of the US and the West in general. Nobody could give a f**k about the Jewish right to their own State or the Zionist wackos. Israel is one big Embassy and Military Base slap bang in the middle of one of the wealthiest parts of the world. It is mantained to suit the west not to suit the Jews.
That is naive. No Israeli government would ever be the same sort of altar boy that the British Blair government seemed to be to the US Bush government. The Jewish superiority complex is just too powerful a factor to discount.
Second, no Israeli government would be inclined to gamble with the lives of Jewish Israeli citizens to the extent that you are suggesting.
Quote from: Ulick on June 01, 2010, 01:27:54 PM
Success for them is about breaking the blockade and showing solidarity with the Palestinians in Gaza.
actually success is having the blockade broken- doesn't matter how or by whom- which was kind of my point
if success was 1 in 5 what was people killed 4 in 5? who decides if those are appropriate risks?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/7660232/Frankie-Boyle-letter-about-BBC-in-full.html
Quote from: heganboy on June 01, 2010, 01:45:08 PM
Quote from: Ulick on June 01, 2010, 01:27:54 PM
Success for them is about breaking the blockade and showing solidarity with the Palestinians in Gaza.
actually success is having the blockade broken- doesn't matter how or by whom- which was kind of my point
if success was 1 in 5 what was people killed 4 in 5? who decides if those are appropriate risks?
No, 4 in 5 chance they wouldn't be allowed through. I don't think anyone believed the even the US-backed Israeli military would open up on unarmed non-Palestinians civilians - more fool them, eh?
Quote from: Main Street on June 01, 2010, 01:44:45 PM
That is naive. No Israeli government would ever be the same sort of altar boy that the British Blair government seemed to be to the US Bush government. The Jewish superiority complex is just too powerful a factor to discount.
Second, no Israeli government would be inclined to gamble with the lives of Jewish Israeli citizens to the extent that you are suggesting.
Really? All I've heard over the last 10 years is that Israels actions are endangering their people more and more. Israel would strike Iran at the drop of a hat if the US asked them to.
If it's a case that their is a huge Jewish lobby in the US backed by the right wing Christian Lobby and almost every other pressure group in the US then it strengthens my point. These are
US citizens (as opposed to Israeli Jews) with interests in Israel which they are protecting and would gamble the lives of every Arab, Jew and Christian in the middle East if they felt the need. We can look to the US and see Obama if we want but that isn't all that's there.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 01, 2010, 02:11:17 PM
Really? All I've heard over the last 10 years is that Israels actions are endangering their people more and more. Israel would strike Iran at the drop of a hat if the US asked them to.
Let them you mean.
Quote from: johnneycool on June 01, 2010, 02:25:45 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 01, 2010, 02:11:17 PM
Really? All I've heard over the last 10 years is that Israels actions are endangering their people more and more. Israel would strike Iran at the drop of a hat if the US asked them to.
Let them you mean.
Ooh swerve ball :D
Quote from: Capt Pat on June 01, 2010, 12:59:39 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on June 01, 2010, 10:43:46 AM
It doesn't make sense what the Israelis did here. They have an extremely well oiled propaganda machine and usually have a they started it argument before they go in all guns blazing, even if for all the thousands of rockets they claim are being fired at Israel none ever seem to hit a built up area (considering how much of Israel is a built up area). Do the Israelis have a bigger strategy or are they just saying now 'F&*k you all we will do what we want and we don't care about PR exercises or how it looks anymore'.
Israel had to stop those ships from getting to Gaza and unloading their cargos. It is a ghetto that is being maintained by Israel and they want it kept that way. It is the beginning of the end for the Israeli occupation if those shops are allowed in, so they were stopped.
Israel has backed itself into a corner over Gaza. The siege punishes the people rather than Hamas and is a failure. Israel can't back down because it has no plan B. When the siege eventually collapses Hamas win a massive PR boost along the lines of what happened when Hezbollah kicked Israel out of Lebanon in 2000. Ha'aretz wrote yesterday that the Israeli people support the punishment of the people of Gaza because of the hostage Shalit. It's like something out of WW2. Israel can only lose in this case. Apartheid is going nowhere.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 01, 2010, 02:11:17 PM
Really? All I've heard over the last 10 years is that Israels actions are endangering their people more and more.
Danger? most Israelis would differ in the interpretation of where danger lurks.
Israelis are aware of the 1.000 or so rockets fired recently enough by the Hezbullah into israeli civilian areas.
Some people want to blame Israel simply because they have acquired the requisite strength to defend itself. That type of reasoning does not impress me, nor does it impress Israelis. Most Israelis want peace. Most Israelis are tired of war. And that is why the dominant foreign policy issue in Israel for many years now has been to give up occupied land in the hope of better relations with their neighbors.
QuoteIsrael would strike Iran at the drop of a hat if the US asked them to
That utter bull. Are you serious?
What on earth leads to believe that nonsense?
You are really not in tune with the the Israeli government policy or mindset. Did you see Israel get involved in the Gulf wars?
You also need to brush up on Israel military strategy. They are not stupid, when it comes to battle they are one of the most effective military strategists on the planet and certainly rolling into declaring war against Iran would be regarded as extreme folly. The nuclear deterrent is deemed sufficient.
Israel military strategy is to avoid their own casualties, both military and citizen, always has been. However their military methods inflict disproportionate damage and are oft ruthless.
Quote from: Main Street on June 01, 2010, 03:36:30 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 01, 2010, 02:11:17 PM
Really? All I've heard over the last 10 years is that Israels actions are endangering their people more and more.
Danger? most Israelis would differ in the interpretation of where danger lurks.
Israelis are aware of the 1.000 or so rockets fired recently enough by the Hezbullah into israeli civilian areas.
Some people want to blame Israel simply because they have acquired the requisite strength to defend itself. That type of reasoning does not impress me, nor does it impress Israelis. Most Israelis want peace. Most Israelis are tired of war. And that is why the dominant foreign policy issue in Israel for many years now has been to give up occupied land in the hope of better relations with their neighbors.
QuoteIsrael would strike Iran at the drop of a hat if the US asked them to
That utter bull. Are you serious?
What on earth leads to believe that nonsense?
Perhaps their previous form? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera)
Quote from: Main Street on June 01, 2010, 03:36:30 PM
Most Israelis want peace. Most Israelis are tired of war. And that is why the dominant foreign policy issue in Israel for many years now has been to give up occupied land in the hope of better relations with their neighbors.
Why then do they keep electing even more hard-line governments every time they go to the polls?
Gaza aid flotilla activists talk of beatings, electric shocks
By Elena Becatoros, Kirsten Grieshaber, The Associated Press
Last Updated: June 1, 2010 8:40am
BERLIN — Pro-Palestinian activists returning to Europe said Israeli commandos used stun guns on passengers and beat them during the deadly raid on an aid flotilla that was trying to break Israel's blockade of Gaza. One woman said her aid ship "turned into a lake of blood."
Five Germans, six Greeks and several others — among them a Turkish woman and her 1-year-old baby — were released Tuesday, but Israel barred access to hundreds of other activists seized during the raid Monday that killed at least nine people and wounded dozens.
Israel sent commandos onto six ships carrying nearly 700 activists, and there have been conflicting accounts of what happened during the assault. Most of those killed were aboard the Turkish-flagged ship Mavi Marmara.
Norman Paech, a former member of Germany's Left Party who was aboard the Marmara, said the ship was surrounded by small Israeli assault boats about 4:30 a.m. Monday morning.
"Moments later, we heard detonations and then soldiers from helicopters above us dropped down on board," Paech said. "The soldiers were all masked, carrying big guns and were extremely brutal."
The Israeli government says its soldiers were defending themselves, and has released video showing soldiers in riot gear being struck by activists with sticks — and one soldier appears to have been shoved into the water. Israel says the activists were armed with metal rods, knives, slingshots and two pistols snatched from the troops.
When asked about the Israeli video, Paech said he only saw three activists resisting.
"They had no knives, no axes, only sticks that they used to defend themselves," Paech said at a news conference in Berlin at the Reichstag, where the lower house of parliament meets, after he and four other Germans returned Tuesday from Tel Aviv.
Still, he said, he could "not rule out" that others used weapons somewhere else on the boat.
Matthias Jochheim, a German doctor on board the Marmara, said he saw four dead activists who had been killed by gunshots.
"There were at least another 50 injured and an Egyptian doctor told me that he saw a fifth dead activist," said Jochheim, who helped attend to the wounded.
Turkey said four Turkish citizens were confirmed dead and another five dead were also believed to be Turks, although Israeli authorities were still trying to confirm their nationalities.
Jochheim said most victims, including the injured, seemed to be Turkish activists who had hired the Marmara and were on deck when Israeli soldiers boarded.
German Left Party lawmaker Inge Hoeger, who was also on the Marmara, condemned the raid as a "war crime."
"We felt like we were in the middle of a war, like we'd been kidnapped," said Hoeger. "What the Israelis did is a violation of international law."
Turkish activist Nilufer Cetin told reporters in Istanbul that she and her baby son were hiding in her cabin's bathroom on the Mavi Marmara when the Israeli soldiers rappelled onto the ship.
"The ship turned into a lake of blood," Cetin said.
"I was one of the first victims to be released because I had a child," she told reporters, but "they confiscated everything, our telephones, laptops are all gone."
She returned home after Israeli officials warned that jail would be too harsh for her baby. Her husband — the ship's engineer — was still being held by Israeli authorities.
"We were aware of the possible danger" in joining the trip, Cetin said. "But there are thousands of babies in Gaza. If we had reached Gaza, we would have played with them and taken them food."
Some 400 Turkish activists were on the six-ship flotilla, along with more than 30 Greeks and people from some 20 other nations including Germany, the U.S., France, Sweden and Russia.
"They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used," said Greek activist Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the ship Sfendoni.
Gielalis, who also returned home Tuesday, said the boat's captain was beaten for refusing to leave the wheel and a cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye by Israeli soldiers.
"Of course we weren't prepared for a situation of war," he told reporters.
German lawmaker Hoeger said the women aboard the Marmara were locked into a big room below deck during the raid — but it was not clear if Israeli soldiers or activists had locked them away.
"Later, the Israeli soldiers let us go outside, one by one," Hoeger recalled. "We were checked and our personal belongings were taken away. Then we were handcuffed with cable retainers and brought to the upper deck."
"They were obviously looking for weapons. They raided and slashed all the suitcases of all passengers and everything was all over the place," Hoeger said.
Aris Papadokostopoulos, who was aboard the ship Free Mediterranean that carried mainly Greek and Swedish activists, said the flotilla was about 80 miles (130 kilometres) off the coast of Gaza in international waters when the raid occurred.
"The Turkish ship was in front of us ... on which there was a terrible raid from the air and from the sea and from everywhere, with shooting," he said.
Aboard the other boats, he said, commandos beat activists, but nobody was gravely injured. He said no one resisted the Israeli soldiers who boarded the Free Mediterranean, which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building materials and medicine.
"Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks," he said.
Activists from Greece and Germany said the Israeli Army demanded that they sign deportation papers and those who refused were taken on buses to prisons in the Negev Desert.
Israeli officials say about 50 of the 679 activists aboard the flotilla were taken to Israel's international airport for deportation. The others, they said, have refused to identify themselves and will remain in detention in a prison in southern Israel.
Civil engineer Thanassis Petrogiannis said he had joined the flotilla to help rebuild destroyed Palestinian homes. He said while in Israeli custody, authorities had demanded he sign a paper written in Hebrew. He refused and was eventually given another document that he signed.
"Everyone who didn't sign is in jail," he said.
The German Foreign Office said it was still trying to track down six citizens and Greece was demanding that the other Greek citizens still in custody be repatriated as soon as possible.
Turkey was sending three ambulance planes to Israel to pick up 20 more Turkish activists who were wounded in the operation.
Israelis opened fire before boarding Gaza flotilla, say released activists
First eyewitness accounts of raid contradict version put out by Israeli officials
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire)
Quote from: Main Street on June 01, 2010, 03:36:30 PM
Danger? most Israelis would differ in the interpretation of where danger lurks.
Israelis are aware of the 1.000 or so rockets fired recently enough by the Hezbullah into israeli civilian areas.
Some people want to blame Israel simply because they have acquired the requisite strength to defend itself. That type of reasoning does not impress me, nor does it impress Israelis. Most Israelis want peace. Most Israelis are tired of war. And that is why the dominant foreign policy issue in Israel for many years now has been to give up occupied land in the hope of better relations with their neighbors.
I don't give a f**k who it is impressing. My problem is not with Israel defending themselevs but with actions like boarding a boat with humanitarian aid and civilians on board and shooting them dead. My problem is that in order to punish Hamas Israel are willing to kill the entire population of Gaza.
QuoteThat utter bull. Are you serious?
What on earth leads to believe that nonsense?
You are really not in tune with the the Israeli government policy or mindset. Did you see Israel get involved in the Gulf wars?
You also need to brush up on Israel military strategy. They are not stupid, when it comes to battle they are one of the most effective military strategists on the planet and certainly rolling into declaring war against Iran would be regarded as extreme folly. The nuclear deterrent is deemed sufficient.
Israel military strategy is to avoid their own casualties, both military and citizen, always has been. However their military methods inflict disproportionate damage and are oft ruthless.
No I'm not in tune with the mindset of the Israeli Government. As I have said before I believe Israel as a state to be a puppet of the West and the US in particular.
Israel in the Gulf war http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Gulf_War.html all at the request of the US.
The Nuclear deterrent was sufficient untill Iran started moving towards Nuclear capability. If Israel want to return to the Nuclear deterrent then the will obviously need to be certain Iran won't achieve it. How do you think they might go about that?
Israel avoid their own casulties as they are fighting people with hand held rocket devices and stones while they have the most modern equipment on the planwet at their disposal.
Some interesting posts here already but Skull and Seafoid's in particular caught my attention. I have been following the situation in the Middle East since 1975 when as young lad I saw the start of the Lebanese civil war on the TV at home. Ever since I have tried to keep up to date with what has been going on and have met and discussed the situation with many arabs. We get enough of the pro-fascist/zionist view in our "mainstream" media.
Ever since the fall of the Iron Curtain Israel has been forced more and more into the vanguard of American interests in the region. In the 6-day war in 1967 Israel, acting on information supplied by the Yanks attacked Egypt, Syrian and Jordan pulverising their forces, especially the air forces. the arab countries were stunned and dishevelled afterwards. Sadat took over from Nasser and quietly started rebuilding with the help of the Soviets. When the 1973 October war started, the arab coalition was on the point of defeating Israel that it took the intercession of Nixon and Brezhnev to call off Sadat's troops as they were afraid of the void that might be left. Better the devil you know and all that there.
As the Cold War progressed it was in the US interests to keep Israel as their bulwark just as they did with Japan, and so it continues to today. Israel acts with total disregard for what others say as it is the puppet and the US is the puppetmaster. Don't fool yourselves into thinking this was a stand alone issue without any intervention on the part of the US. They more than likely were aware of what was going to happen. Think Google Earth!!!
As I have stated before, it is my belief that the US is trying to suffocate the rising influence of the Rus Fed and the Chinese on the global energy market. The US have dwindling resources and are in debt to the eyeballs to the Chinese which actually own America when you think about it. One only has to look at a map and draw a line along all of Russia's and China's borders to notice that practically every country on the other side is an ally of the US...except ONE. Iran, hence the alleged positioning of the nuclear sub near Iran. The oil rich countries of central Russia want to get their oil out but how? Through countries effectively controlled by the USA. And in China's case, it is now well known that China is a major supplier of foreign aid to some of the most corrupt regimes in Africa...and who is supplying the arms to oppose such regimes??? And so the Status quo remains.
One final thought...those of you with Foxtel. Consider how Murdoch is using your money. He isn't supporting the Palestinians that's for sure.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Gaza-TV-News/119275738102852?ref=ts
Folks, i'm so busy to post at present, however you can click on the link above, and you will find all the latest news.
Re post anything please on here.
************* BREAKING NEWS **************
GAZA PORT UNDER ATTACK, AND 3 DEAD IN AIRSTIKES IN NORTHERN GAZA
This doesn't seem to be getting any coverage anywhere!!
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=288655
Quote from: Aerlik on June 01, 2010, 04:17:03 PM
Some interesting posts here already but Skull and Seafoid's in particular caught my attention. I have been following the situation in the Middle East since 1975 when as young lad I saw the start of the Lebanese civil war on the TV at home. Ever since I have tried to keep up to date with what has been going on and have met and discussed the situation with many arabs. We get enough of the pro-fascist/zionist view in our "mainstream" media.
Ever since the fall of the Iron Curtain Israel has been forced more and more into the vanguard of American interests in the region. In the 6-day war in 1967 Israel, acting on information supplied by the Yanks attacked Egypt, Syrian and Jordan pulverising their forces, especially the air forces. the arab countries were stunned and dishevelled afterwards. Sadat took over from Nasser and quietly started rebuilding with the help of the Soviets. When the 1973 October war started, the arab coalition was on the point of defeating Israel that it took the intercession of Nixon and Brezhnev to call off Sadat's troops as they were afraid of the void that might be left. Better the devil you know and all that there.
As the Cold War progressed it was in the US interests to keep Israel as their bulwark just as they did with Japan, and so it continues to today. Israel acts with total disregard for what others say as it is the puppet and the US is the puppetmaster. Don't fool yourselves into thinking this was a stand alone issue without any intervention on the part of the US. They more than likely were aware of what was going to happen. Think Google Earth!!!
As I have stated before, it is my belief that the US is trying to suffocate the rising influence of the Rus Fed and the Chinese on the global energy market. The US have dwindling resources and are in debt to the eyeballs to the Chinese which actually own America when you think about it. One only has to look at a map and draw a line along all of Russia's and China's borders to notice that practically every country on the other side is an ally of the US...except ONE. Iran, hence the alleged positioning of the nuclear sub near Iran. The oil rich countries of central Russia want to get their oil out but how? Through countries effectively controlled by the USA. And in China's case, it is now well known that China is a major supplier of foreign aid to some of the most corrupt regimes in Africa...and who is supplying the arms to oppose such regimes??? And so the Status quo remains.
One final thought...those of you with Foxtel. Consider how Murdoch is using your money. He isn't supporting the Palestinians that's for sure.
Israel has been doing its own thing under US cover since 1967 but now is is danger of losing popular support in the US as the generation that produced Alan Dershowitz dies off and Israel's real face comes to be revealed to people who believe in the values of liberal democracy and don't buy the guff that Zionism is liberal, regardless of the Jerusalem gay pride parade.
The millitary industrial settler machine is unstoppable and is driving Israel into apartheid . It's like the hydra and it is going to take down the Jewish state since the system becomes more grotesque and cruel by the year. Ultimately there aren't enough Jews who want to live in Israel or palestinians who want to leave to make apartheid a success.
Moshe dayan said "treat them like dogs. those who want to can leave" and that is the policy Israel has been running since 1948. the palestinians were all supposed to have disappeared by now. They are now more numerous in I/P than Jews and the gap will only get wider. Israel is sponsored by the reducing secular Jewish population and they keep the whole show on the road. If those people decide to leave in large numbers a la the educated unionists in NI the game is up. There is no HM treasury to bankroll the country a la northern Ireland. The future for Israel looks very grim.
Quote from: Hardy on June 01, 2010, 11:30:00 AM
I'm still wondering what our government is doing about the kidnap of Irish citizens and their abduction to Israel, a place they had no intention of going to. Why is the Irish ambassador to the UN not raising the kidnap of Irish citizens at the security council, and demanding international sanctions against the perpetrators?
The abuse of our passports by Israeli agents was an indirect compromising of the security of our citizens. The seizure of our citizens on the high seas is an act of piracy and is an order of magnitude more serious. We should reasonably expect our government to defend our right to travel without let or hindrance and to protect us against attack, kidnapping and abduction. What did I pay €80 for a passport for?
No other state has molested Irish citizens in this way. When Irish citizens are kidnapped by guerillas or terrorists in other countries, we have Department Of Foreign Affairs officials, consuls and ambassadors on the job immediately. Where are they now? At the very least, we should be doing what Turkey is doing and telling the Israelis that an Air Corps plane will be landing in Tel Aviv in five hours time and they had better produce our citizens.
Compare Hillary Clinton's response to that torpedoed South Korean ship 10 days ago and what Israel did to those ships going to Gaza.
It's double standards all round.
I talked to a Jewish lady lately who said Barrack Obama is worse (if its possable) than George Bush regarding Israels ethnic cleansing of Palestine. She is part of a Jewish group called "not in our name". Has been to visit Palestine on more than two occasions and is well informed. Also she protested out side A.I.P.A.C functions who were major contributers to Obamas political campaign.
John Hurson your doing a fantastic job well done and I admire your courage.
How many are dead ??? numerous different sources still have the number at 9 here :o
Quote from: seafoid on June 01, 2010, 05:06:57 PM
Quote from: Aerlik on June 01, 2010, 04:17:03 PM
Some interesting posts here already but Skull and Seafoid's in particular caught my attention. I have been following the situation in the Middle East since 1975 when as young lad I saw the start of the Lebanese civil war on the TV at home. Ever since I have tried to keep up to date with what has been going on and have met and discussed the situation with many arabs. We get enough of the pro-fascist/zionist view in our "mainstream" media.
Ever since the fall of the Iron Curtain Israel has been forced more and more into the vanguard of American interests in the region. In the 6-day war in 1967 Israel, acting on information supplied by the Yanks attacked Egypt, Syrian and Jordan pulverising their forces, especially the air forces. the arab countries were stunned and dishevelled afterwards. Sadat took over from Nasser and quietly started rebuilding with the help of the Soviets. When the 1973 October war started, the arab coalition was on the point of defeating Israel that it took the intercession of Nixon and Brezhnev to call off Sadat's troops as they were afraid of the void that might be left. Better the devil you know and all that there.
As the Cold War progressed it was in the US interests to keep Israel as their bulwark just as they did with Japan, and so it continues to today. Israel acts with total disregard for what others say as it is the puppet and the US is the puppetmaster. Don't fool yourselves into thinking this was a stand alone issue without any intervention on the part of the US. They more than likely were aware of what was going to happen. Think Google Earth!!!
As I have stated before, it is my belief that the US is trying to suffocate the rising influence of the Rus Fed and the Chinese on the global energy market. The US have dwindling resources and are in debt to the eyeballs to the Chinese which actually own America when you think about it. One only has to look at a map and draw a line along all of Russia's and China's borders to notice that practically every country on the other side is an ally of the US...except ONE. Iran, hence the alleged positioning of the nuclear sub near Iran. The oil rich countries of central Russia want to get their oil out but how? Through countries effectively controlled by the USA. And in China's case, it is now well known that China is a major supplier of foreign aid to some of the most corrupt regimes in Africa...and who is supplying the arms to oppose such regimes??? And so the Status quo remains.
One final thought...those of you with Foxtel. Consider how Murdoch is using your money. He isn't supporting the Palestinians that's for sure.
Israel has been doing its own thing under US cover since 1967 but now is is danger of losing popular support in the US as the generation that produced Alan Dershowitz dies off and Israel's real face comes to be revealed to people who believe in the values of liberal democracy and don't buy the guff that Zionism is liberal, regardless of the Jerusalem gay pride parade.
The millitary industrial settler machine is unstoppable and is driving Israel into apartheid . It's like the hydra and it is going to take down the Jewish state since the system becomes more grotesque and cruel by the year. Ultimately there aren't enough Jews who want to live in Israel or palestinians who want to leave to make apartheid a success.
Moshe dayan said "treat them like dogs. those who want to can leave" and that is the policy Israel has been running since 1948. the palestinians were all supposed to have disappeared by now. They are now more numerous in I/P than Jews and the gap will only get wider. Israel is sponsored by the reducing secular Jewish population and they keep the whole show on the road. If those people decide to leave in large numbers a la the educated unionists in NI the game is up. There is no HM treasury to bankroll the country a la northern Ireland. The future for Israel looks very grim.
Unfortunately there is no sign of the US treasury ending support any time soon
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 01, 2010, 05:47:24 PM
How many are dead ??? numerous different sources still have the number at 9 here :o
I'm hearing there was no attack on GAZA's Port.
Gaza: investigate the raid, end the blockade
Israel's deadly raid of the Gaza humanitarian flotilla has sparked worldwide outrage. This time, we can't accept mere words from our leaders. It's time for action.
This petition will be delivered to the UN and world leaders when it reaches 200,000 signatures -- sign on to join the global call for truth, accountability, and justice for Gaza!
http://www.avaaz.org/en/gaza_flotilla_3/?vl
Quote from: Ulick on June 01, 2010, 03:54:15 PM
Israelis opened fire before boarding Gaza flotilla, say released activists
First eyewitness accounts of raid contradict version put out by Israeli officials
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire)
From that article...
Quote
Cetin is among a handful of Turkish activists to be released; more than 300 remain in Israeli custody.
I'm just in, haven't seen news all day but why are they holding these people and why are they being allowed to hold people???
Why is there not uproar that they are holding people hostage?
Quote from: pintsofguinness on June 01, 2010, 07:32:04 PM
Why is there not uproar that they are holding people hostage?
[/quote
Because they are the US's ally and they can do what they like and the Western media( owned by very rich tycoons) think the terrorist rogue murdering pirate state of Israel is wonderful.
Any chance some of ye could explain the thread title...some here have
Even quoted articles mentioning the nine deaths.
Where is the 20 figure coming from?
Isn't it mad that in this part of the world that Taig=Palestine Hun=Israel.
Mad.
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 01, 2010, 10:20:30 PM
Any chance some of ye could explain the thread title...some here have
Even quoted articles mentioning the nine deaths.
Where is the 20 figure coming from?
If you google around it seems like the death toll varies from 9-20 depending on what report you are reading.
Quote from: ONeill on June 01, 2010, 10:34:36 PM
Isn't it mad that in this part of the world that Taig=Palestine Hun=Israel.
Mad.
this cracks me up every time
QuoteIsn't it mad that in this part of the world that Taig=Palestine Hun=Israel.
Taig/Palestine=Oppressed, displaced people. Hun/Israel=Planter supported by British Government.
Not so mad from a green tinged point of view
The great irony is that unionists/loyalists would be horrified if jewish people moved into their area. It is also many loyalists who are the biggest fans of Hitler, Combat 18 and the National Front. Basically they are full of sh*te.
Tyrones own - the thread title is wrong because dixie who started the thread has only been on for a few minutes as per his previous post and has obviously not had a chance to change it yet. the title was orginally 3 when the thread began then 8 and now 20 (as was being reported at the time by Israeli sources because of the media blackout)
The exact figure is still not known for sure and i am sure dixie will correct it when he has time. The only reason the exact figure is not known is because Israel (like in the Gaza slaughter/war/whatever it achieved) they have a complete media blackout and the only information anyone can get is their story. This tactic was succussful last time and will probably be sucussful this time, as when it comes to an investigation they will either do it themselves (whitewash) or refuse to accept and call it bias and anti-semtic if an independent investigation finds against them.
The fact all you manage to comment only on the title of the thread when at least 9 (source bbc) unarmed innocent civilians were gunned downed speaks volumes on your character. No matter what went before this was a savage attack and without warrant.
I am unlucky that one of the 10 english speaking channels i get in Thailand is Fox. There reporting of this incident shows again why this network is a farce. From your previous posting it seems its where you get the bulk of your materials or from very liked minded people or media sources. They comment on why bring the aid, Israel let in aid -it fails to mention that is only a faction of what is needed. It says the Palestinians get the most aid per head, they don't mention that Israel has been withholding funds from the Palestinians or that Palestinians don't want aid they want control of their economy, borders, water, air etc. Also yesterday when i visited the website to see what the coverage was like, a link directly below the main article was "Gazaian enter Israel: 2 Killed" when i clicked the link, the article was nothing to do with incident (which i haven't found reported anywhere else) but about 2 more ships on their way, Rachel Corrie (an example of how whitewashed Israel Investigations can be). Today the link directly below it is about how some turkish charitys funds terrorists. Fox didn't have links to articles on previous America Massacres in Vietnam or killings of inoccent people in Iraq (even if only by friendly fire etc.), or christian fundamentists like Tim McVeigh after the Fort Hood Massarce. (what are they calling the killing of innocents now, its not called a massarce anyway)
That last paragraph was only an aside, it just pissed me off last night watching Fox. Before you say why do i watch it then. I watch it for the same reason i read Ian O'Doherty or Myers when i was in Ireland or read books about the Middle east from authors from different countries. It is because i want to see as many perspectives as i can and i make and chance my opinions on different issues depending on what information i have.
Quote from: ONeill on June 01, 2010, 10:34:36 PM
Isn't it mad that in this part of the world that Taig=Palestine Hun=Israel.
Mad.
If you go to Israel and fly into the airport in Lod you can see hills in the distance. That is where all the Taigs live. Israel took all the best land by the sea and shunted the Taigs into the hills. It was exactly the same during the plantation of Ulster. the taigs were shunted off the best land which was then given to the huns and the Taigs had to live in the hills.
there is one significant difference through. The Brits never herded Taigs into a concentration camp such as Gaza which is effectively a holding pen for all the Taig refugees south of Jaffa who were pushed out to make way for a land without a people for a people without a land . Even at their worst the Brits still had some decency.
Quote from: seafoid on June 02, 2010, 08:24:08 AM
Quote from: ONeill on June 01, 2010, 10:34:36 PM
Isn't it mad that in this part of the world that Taig=Palestine Hun=Israel.
Mad.
If you go to Israel and fly into the airport in Lod you can see hills in the distance. That is where all the Taigs live. Israel took all the best land by the sea and shunted the Taigs into the hills. It was exactly the same during the plantation of Ulster. the taigs were shunted off the best land which was then given to the huns and the Taigs had to live in the hills.
there is one significant difference through. The Brits never herded Taigs into a concentration camp such as Gaza which is effectively a holding pen for all the Taig refugees south of Jaffa who were pushed out to make way for a land without a people for a people without a land . Even at their worst the Brits still had some decency.
The Brits were the ones who partitioned Palestine in the fist place, much like they did in Irelland. The only difference is that after they partitioned Palestine they fucked off out of there.
Quote from: seafoid on June 02, 2010, 08:24:08 AM
Quote from: ONeill on June 01, 2010, 10:34:36 PM
Isn't it mad that in this part of the world that Taig=Palestine Hun=Israel.
Mad.
If you go to Israel and fly into the airport in Lod you can see hills in the distance. That is where all the Taigs live. Israel took all the best land by the sea and shunted the Taigs into the hills. It was exactly the same during the plantation of Ulster. the taigs were shunted off the best land which was then given to the huns and the Taigs had to live in the hills.
there is one significant difference through. The Brits never herded Taigs into a concentration camp such as Gaza which is effectively a holding pen for all the Taig refugees south of Jaffa who were pushed out to make way for a land without a people for a people without a land . Even at their worst the Brits still had some decency.
The Brits used concentration camps in South Africa against the Boers.
Quote from: Sean3 on June 02, 2010, 09:01:58 AM
The Brits used concentration camps in South Africa against the Boers.
And in Cyprus they used them against the Jews.
It all boils down to this: There is no law but Israeli law, no legitimacy but Israeli legitimacy and no truth but Israel's version of the truth.
In spite of the shock, pain and anger that was felt across the world in reaction to Israel's bloody dawn attack against the humanitarian aid flotilla heading to Gaza on Monday, which killed and injured scores of international activists, the Jewish state brushed aside condemnations and criticisms and appeared unrepentant and shameless.
Not only that, but Israeli officials were quick to justify the massacre that its soldiers had perpetrated, alleging that the elite commando force was attacked, with sticks and knives, and even fired upon. One official said those on board were not peace activists and aid workers but sympathizers of Hamas and supporters of terrorism. The organizers of the aid-to-Gaza flotilla had expected all possible scenarios; to be forced to turn back from where they came, to be diverted to an Israeli port and even to be arrested and later deported. But no one imagined that a cold-blooded massacre was in store; that unarmed civilian opponents of the three-year Gaza siege will be gunned down while the entire world was watching.
The flotilla of six ships, carrying around 700 international activists, including European parliamentarians, and laden with 10,000 tons of essential aid and building material to the people of Gaza, was on its way to the stricken strip when it was intercepted by Israeli helicopters and navy ships in international waters.
Video clips sent almost immediately by those on board showed Israeli commandos being lowered from helicopters onto the largest vessel, Marmara, followed by scenes of dead and injured passengers lying on the ground. The rattle of gunfire could be heard in the background.
Nothing can justify this latest Israeli crime. The attack was deliberate, ordered by Israel's Defense Minister Ehud Barak and blessed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who was in Canada preparing for a visit to Washington on Tuesday to meet President Barack Obama.
Diplomatic nightmare
There were many quick and fiery reactions from world capitals, both public and official. From a PR point of view, it was a nightmare for Israeli diplomacy. But if Israel thought it can sustain few days of bashing by the international community before it could walk away, free of guilt and accountability, it was wrong.
Of all the angry reactions that poured from Arab, Muslim and foreign capitals, Turkey's was the most profound and sincere. After all, the Liberty Fleet mission was organized and supported mainly by Turkish humanitarian agencies and donors. The biggest ship in the flotilla carried a Turkish flag and many of the dead and injured were Turkish nationals.
Turkish-Israeli relations have been strained for months, and the government of Recep Tayyip Erdogan was quick to denounce the attack, accusing the Israeli government of violating international law and of committing an act of piracy.
'Act of state terrorism'
It called for an emergency meeting of the UN's General Assembly and said Israel must endure the consequences of its action. Erdogan, who interrupted a visit to South America and headed home, described the Israeli interception as an act of state terrorism. They were tough words coming from a man who does not beat around the bush when it comes to expressing his emotions, especially on the continuing plight of Gazans.
Even in Israel there were voices that debunked the official version and expressed doubts about the wisdom of the government's action and long-term strategy on Gaza. Bradley Burston, writing in Haaretz, said that "we are no longer defending Israel. We are now defending the siege, which is becoming Israel's Vietnam." He concluded by saying that instead of focusing on Iran, "Netanyahu must recognize that the world is now focused on Israel and the threat it poses to the people of Gaza."
The Arab reaction was confused and confusing. Qatar and Syria called for an emergency session of the Arab League at ministerial level, but between threatening to withdraw the Arab peace initiative and waiting to see where the White House will finally draw the line, nothing much was forthcoming.
President Obama finds himself once more trumped by Netanyahu, who always puts himself one step ahead of his American allies. Now he is exerting pressure again on the Obama administration. As the Security Council debated Turkey's draft statement, the US stepped in to water down its wording; a gesture toward Israel, which could always rely on the blind backing of Washington, no matter the crime.
It is a setback for peace efforts, but the tragic death of humanitarian activists rallying to support over 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza under siege should not be in vain. This is an opportunity to end this unlawful, criminal and unjustified blockade once and for all.
It is ironic that there are those, among the Arab countries, who would not be happy if the Gaza siege is lifted, but this is no longer about politics; Hamas, Israel and Palestinian power struggle. The humanitarian crisis in Gaza is unprecedented in modern history; it is a crime against humanity and an affront to international law and the Geneva Conventions. It must end and the time to end it is now.
On the other hand, Israel's disregard for international law must be brought to a just conclusion. The West, especially America, have justified Israeli atrocities and its fascist policies against the Palestinian people for too long. The time for reckoning has come and Israel's crime in the high seas should not go unpunished.
— Osama Al Sharif is a veteran journalist and a political commentator based in Jordan.
Posted by
OSAMA AL SHARIF | ARAB NEWS
Jun 1, 2010 22:55
Israel's ambassador to the US has compared the deadly raid on the Gaza aid flotilla with America's battles against the Germans in World War Two.
In an interview with Sky's American sister station Fox News, Michael Oren described the operation, in which at least nine people died, as "perfectly legal, perfectly humane - and very responsible".
"Israel has to make some hard choices sometimes," he stressed, "We live in a rough neighbourhood."
When questioned about the global condemnation of the violence and accusations of "state-sponsored piracy on the open seas", he denied there had been any breach of international law in raiding the ships.
"Israel acted in accord with international law," he said.
"Any state has the right to protect itself, certainly from a terrorist threat such as Hamas, including on the open seas.
"The US acted under similar international law when it fought the Germans and the Japanese in World War Two."
These folks would put Goebbels in the hapenny place when it comes to propoganda and spin and yes I deliberately used that comparison because the Israeli government like to use WW2 as a reference point to justify the existence of their state
What I just can't understand is how a Jewish nation, of all people, can do what they are doing. I really can't get my head around it.
I sincerely hope that other world government grow a set of balls and hold these a**holes to account some day soon.
There is a theory that because what happened to them they have become totally ruthless, and now the oppressors, like 'never again will anyone f** with us.' Agression is often borne of fear.
Israeli society is autistic. I had lunch with an Israeli on Monday and he started going on about Gaza and how the world hates the Jews and the only time they cared was after the war but that there was no sincerity in it and since then they don't care and they will leave Israel defenceless and so Israel has to do it all by itself like the little red hen and the world can go f**k itself. That was it in a nutshell. It's the zionist meme. You can read it on any website where Zionists write. Word for word. That is how people are educated to think in Israel. Palestinians are an inferior and a defeated people. gideon Levy said that Israelis are really nice people and would help an old lady across the road but that something switches when it comes to the Palestinians. there can be no recognition of them as equals. Otherwise the whole structure of Zionism is in danger of collapse.
You take the kids and conscript them in an army for 3 years where their job is to button down the population so that more settlements can be built. They whup the Palestinians so that Settlers can run around the west bank like they own the place. you can't do that to your kids and expect there to be no mental damage afterwards. The violence inherent in the occupation is corrupting Israeli society. It's unsustainable - you can't run a society on hatred for very long.
Zochrot is a very interesting charity supported by Trocaire which exists to educated Israelis about what happened in 1948. they have some class videos on youtube. they run seminars and visits to sites of destroyed Palestinian villages and do things like put up replica street signs from the days when the villages existed, as a form of remembering.
Israel officialdom can't tolerate the signs. Zionism is too fragile. That is why they lash out the way they do. They cannot acknowledge the right of the Palestinians to be there. They cannot acknowledge that Israel was founded as a settler colony which expelled the natives. They cannot acknowlege that the land did not belong to them or their forebears.
Looks like the Government have finally taken direct action.
http://www.fiannafail.ie/page/s/gaza?source=gazapetition&utm_source=fiannafail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=gazapetition
They are going to petition the Israelis. >:(
How about this Government do something worth while for a change. They can stick their petition up their arse.
I say they should storm the Embassy and kidnap the Israeli ambassador. They can then offer to swap the ambassador for Irish hostages held in Israel.
Israelis now trying to get "rid" of the aid workers as quickly as possible!
Send them home and hopefully things will calm down quickly!!
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0602/mideast.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10210949.stm
A brief summary of Israels behaviour in the past 6 months before the latest massacre taken from The Independent... Robert Fisks opinion piece is the main article on the link at the bottom for those who are interested.
Diplomatic storms
*Goldstone report, November 2009
Israel launched Operation Cast Lead in December 2008 with the declared aim of halting rocket fire from Gaza into Israel. More than 1,400 Palestinians were killed in the three-week conflict along with 13 Israelis. The South African jurist Richard Goldstone's report into the conflict found both Israel and the Hamas movement that controls the Strip guilty of war crimes, but focused more on Israel. Israel refused to co-operate with Goldstone and described his report as distorted and biased.
* The al-Mabhouh assassination, January-May 2010
Britain and Australia expelled Israeli diplomats after concluding that Israel had forged British and Australian passports used by assassins to kill a Hamas commander in Dubai. Israel has neither confirmed or denied a role in the killing of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in his hotel room in January. Britain said such misuse of British passports was "intolerable". Australia said it was not the behaviour of "a nation with whom we have had such a close, friendly and supportive relationship".
*Settlements row, March 2010
Israel announces plans, during visit by US Vice-President Joe Biden, to build 1,600 homes for Jews in an area of the West Bank annexed by Israel. The announcement triggers unusually harsh criticism from the United States. Washington said it damaged its efforts to revive the Middle East peace process. US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the project was an insult. Netanyahu said he was blindsided by planning bureaucrats and apologised to Biden. Today's meeting with Barack Obama at the White House, called off by Mr Netanyahu so he could return home to deal with the flotilla crisis, was supposed to be another part of the fence-mending between the two allies.
*Nuclear secrecy, May 2010
Israel, widely assumed to have the Middle East's only nuclear arsenal, has faced renewed calls to sign a global treaty barring the spread of atomic weapons. Signatories of the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) last week called for a conference in 2012 to discuss banning weapons of mass destruction throughout the Middle East. The declaration was adopted by all 189 parties to the NPT, including the US. It urged Israel to sign the NPT and put its nuclear facilities under UN safeguards.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-western-leaders-are-too-cowardly--to-help-save-lives-1987989.html
As Fisk points out what would be the political reaction if another middle eastern country gunned down unarmed europeans as has just happened?
and here is Tom Friedman's piece in the NY Times, a very american centric piece:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/opinion/02friedman.html?th&emc=th
When Friends Fall Out
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: June 1, 2010
As a friend of both Turkey and Israel, it has been agonizing to watch the disastrous clash between Israeli naval commandos and a flotilla of "humanitarian" activists seeking to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza. Personally, I think both Israel and Turkey have gotten out of balance lately, and it is America's job to help both get back to the center — urgently.
I've long had a soft spot for Turkey. I once even argued that if the European Union wouldn't admit Turkey, we should invite Turkey to join Nafta. Why? Because I think it really matters whether Turkey is a bridge or ditch between the Judeo-Christian West and the Arab and Muslim East. Turkey's role in balancing and interpreting East and West is one of the critical pivot points that helps keep the world stable.
I also happened to be in Istanbul when the street outside one of the synagogues that was suicide-bombed there on Nov. 15, 2003, was reopened. Two things struck me: First, the chief rabbi of Turkey appeared at the ceremony, hand in hand with the top Muslim cleric of Istanbul and the local mayor, while crowds threw red carnations on them. Second, Turkey's leader, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who comes from an Islamist party, paid a visit to the chief rabbi — the first time a Turkish prime minister had ever called on the chief rabbi in his office. Since then, I have seen Turkey play an important role mediating between Israel and Syria and voting just a month ago in favor of Israel joining the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development.
Therefore, it has been painful to hear the same Prime Minister Erdogan in recent years publicly lash out with ever-greater vehemence at Israel over its treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza. Many see this as Turkey looking to ingratiate itself with the Muslim world after having been rebuffed by the European Union. I have no problem with Turkey or humanitarian groups loudly criticizing Israel. But I have a big problem when people get so agitated by Israel's actions in Gaza but are unmoved by Syria's involvement in the murder of the prime minister of Lebanon, by the Iranian regime's killing of its own citizens demonstrating for the right to have their votes counted, by Muslim suicide bombers murdering nearly 100 Ahmadi Muslims in mosques in Pakistan on Friday and by pro-Hamas gunmen destroying a U.N.-sponsored summer camp in Gaza because it wouldn't force Islamic fundamentalism down the throats of children.
That concern for Gaza and Israel's blockade is so out balance with these other horrific cases in the region that it is not surprising Israelis dismiss it as motivated by hatred — not the advice of friends. Turkey has a unique role to play linking the East and West. If Turkey lurches too far East, it may become more popular on some Arab streets, but it would lose a lot of its strategic relevance and, more importantly, its historic role as a country that can be Muslim, modern, democratic — and with good relations with both Israel and the Arabs. Once this crisis passes, it needs to get back in balance.
Ditto Israel. There is no question that this flotilla was a setup. Israel's intelligence failed to fully appreciate who was on board, and Israel's leaders certainly failed to think more creatively about how to avoid the very violent confrontation that the blockade-busters wanted. At the same time, though, the Israeli partial blockade of Hamas and Gaza has been going on for some four years now. It is surely not all Israel's fault, given the refusal of Hamas to recognize Israel or prior peace agreements, and its own repeated missile attacks on Israel.
But I sure know this: It is overwhelmingly in Israel's interest to bring more diplomatic imagination and energy to ending this Gaza siege. How long is this going to go on? Are we going to have a whole new generation grow up in Gaza with Israel counting how many calories they each get? That surely can't be in Israel's interest. Israel has gotten so good at controlling the Palestinians that it could get comfortable with an arrangement that will not only erode its own moral fabric but increase its international isolation. It may be that Hamas will give Israel no other choice, but Israel could show a lot more initiative in determining if that is really so.
One of my oldest Israeli friends, Victor Friedman (no relation), an education professor from Zichron Yaacov, e-mailed me the following on Tuesday: "It's time we started using our wits. If we used even a tiny fraction of the brain-power and resources we put into 'defense' into finding a way forward in terms of living with the Palestinians, we would have solved the problem long ago. The strategic situation has never been more opportune — the Arabs are scared of the Iranians, the Saudi peace plan is still on the table, and the Palestinians are beginning to act rationally. But we lack the leadership to help us make a real change."
This is a critical moment. Two of America's best friends are out of balance and infuriatingly at each other's throats. We have got to move quickly to get them both back to the center before this spins out of control.
By American centric, I assume you mean the US wing of Israeli propaganda machine, heganboy:
the foltilla was a set-up
the blockade is not Israel's fault
...
Don't make me laugh...
How would we feel if Britain blockaded part or all of Northern Ireland during the troubles? I have no doubt some of us would naively cheer any rockets fired at Britain from within, no matter how disproportionate the response it drew. No doubt some of us would cheer if some 'activists' managed to break the blockade and blow up some 'targets' in Britain. Yes those some of us would be wrong, but it would be easy to empathise with them.
Turning a country/province, or whatever the Israeli spin doctors call it now, into a mass prison is a hideous act that will stick out in history like a sore thumb. Pointing to other perpetrators of hideous acts is not an argument, in fact it is an admission of guilt. Expecting the country that gave us Guantanamo, and invaded Iraq based on a lie, to sort it out seems optimistic at best.
Breaking the blockade was certainly a stunt designed to draw world attention but boy did Israel take the bait. I find it sickening when anyone tries to argue that they have the high moral ground. And this 'Hamas doesn't recognise Israel' argument doesn't wash either. There are far right Jewish groups who don't recognise Israel either but they don't live in blockaded territory.
Until the Good Friday Agreement, the Act of Union and the Irish Constitution were incompatible, making life difficult for dealings between the two Governments. Also one country was a serious military power while the other was in the middle ages militarily, and there were terrorists attacks frequently. There are a lot of similarities. If we are entitled to hate all things British (which I don't buy into myself) as a result of our history, then how are the Palestinians entitled to feel about Israel?
Quote from: Ulick on June 02, 2010, 01:40:26 PM
By American centric, I assume you mean the US wing of Israeli propaganda machine, heganboy:
the foltilla was a set-up
the blockade is not Israel's fault
...
Don't make me laugh...
The people you talk about here are American. They are not Israeli. This propaganda machine is an American one.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 02, 2010, 02:46:08 PM
The people you talk about here are American. They are not Israeli. This propaganda machine is an American one.
Well I've quite a few friends in Bolivia and Argentina who would disagree with you but we'll not split hairs on that. The reason I say Israeli is because Israel has been allowed to define the context of the debate. By working within that context, as this fella does, then to me he is simply coalescing with and propagating Israeli propaganda.
Quote from: Ulick on June 02, 2010, 03:00:32 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 02, 2010, 02:46:08 PM
The people you talk about here are American. They are not Israeli. This propaganda machine is an American one.
Well I've quite a few friends in Bolivia and Argentina who would disagree with you but we'll not split hairs on that. The reason I say Israeli is because Israel has been allowed to define the context of the debate. By working within that context, as this fella does, then to me he is simply coalescing with and propagating Israeli propaganda.
Fair enough I can't argue with that. I would be of the opinion that Americans (wether they are Jewish or not) towing the Israeli line are still American. Just as the many Irish who denied collusion are still Irish, they were just towing the British line. They are to blame for their actions as Irish.
Quote from: heganboy on June 02, 2010, 12:40:48 PM
and here is Tom Friedman's piece in the NY Times, a very american centric piece:
But I have a big problem when people get so agitated by Israel's actions in Gaza but are unmoved by Syria's involvement in the murder of the prime minister of Lebanon, by the Iranian regime's killing of its own citizens demonstrating for the right to have their votes counted, by Muslim suicide bombers murdering nearly 100 Ahmadi Muslims in mosques in Pakistan on Friday and by pro-Hamas gunmen destroying a U.N.-sponsored summer camp in Gaza because it wouldn't force Islamic fundamentalism down the throats of children.
That concern for Gaza and Israel's blockade is so out balance with these other horrific cases in the region that it is not surprising Israelis dismiss it as motivated by hatred — not the advice of friends.
This article falls down on this central axis. I have no doubt that Syrian government are corrupt, that Pakistan and Iraq are riven with sectarian violence or that Hamas are fundamentalist nutters that have to be dealt with. However are we truly to believe that Palestinian issues are not on the same scale? He seems to be trying to make small beans of the issue which is all wrong.
It's on a scale and longevity comparable to any other issue in the Middle East and critically is a contributor to issues far beyond Palestine.
So to my mind, it
is surprising that Israel would see concern for the Palestinian as motivated by hatred.
After that I can't lend much credence to the man's views.
/Jim.
Tom friedman is a moron. so the world is flat now is it.
Here is a very good article from the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz.www.haaretz.com
Strenger than Fiction / Israel's bunker mentality
Israel is stuck in the belief that it is right, and everybody else is wrong and hence incapable of admitting that its policy vis-à-vis the Palestinians has been disastrous.
By Carlo Strenger
There are two profound psychological blocks that do not allow Israel's leadership to get off its disastrous course, once again proven by the Gaza flotilla disaster: one is sheer fear, the other is self-righteousness.
Israel has real enemies like Iran and Hezbollah. Human psychology is such that fear often leads to freezing and hanging on to the same course of action, even if it proves disastrous time and again. As a result Israel doesn't listen to criticism - either from inside or from outside.
This inability to listen is reinforced by self-righteousness: Israel is stuck in the belief that it is right, and everybody else is wrong and hence incapable of admitting that Israeli policy vis-à-vis the Palestinians has been disastrous; that Israel should have engaged with the Arab League peace initiative years ago, and that a U turn needs to be made. Admitting that one has been wrong is always difficult; but Israel's need for self-righteousness makes it even more difficult.
Israel fails to see the difference between its friends that care, but criticize Israel for its wrongheadedness and those who hate Israel and want its demise. Time and again Europeans who care for Israel tell me 'we want to support you; we want Israel to be a thriving country. We are in favor of the Zionist dream. But please tell us: why is your government so intent to harm Israel? Why does it drive away its friends? Why can't it listen to our advice? Is there anything we can do or say that will reach the hearts and minds of your leaders?'
This exasperation has been expressed publicly by French philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy, one of Israel's staunchest friends, who has been taking on Israel's critics from the European extreme left with force and courage for years. He writes that the state of mind of Israel's leadership that says 'the world doesn't understand us' and 'damn if we do and damn if we don't, so we'll just do what we want' has reached the level of what he calls political autism.
When asked what could turn around Israel's leadership I am at a loss for an answer, because Israel doesn't even listen to critics from the inside. Some reacted to the Flotilla debacle emotionally. David Grossman wrote a moving piece in which he speaks of the shame he feels about Israel's actions. He expresses his pain about how far Israel has declined.
Others wrote in a more analytical vein. Amos Oz in a judicious op-ed in the New York Times speaks of the importance of realizing the limits of force; that Israel must start understanding that there is no way to defeat Hamas by military means, and that Israel can stop the current deterioration only by moving quickly towards a peace agreement with Fatah about a Palestinians state with East Jerusalem as its capital.
But Israel's leadership has gone into a bunker mentality. Like a city besieged in the times before telecommunications, nothing reaches its hearts and minds. To the extent they will even read Grossman, Oz, Levy and countless others, the reaction will be "all these pundits and intellectuals; what do they know about the world! We need to stick to our inner truth; we know what's right for Israel. We don't need the usual gibberish of intellectuals; soft-hearted, unrealistic people who don't have a clue about how the real world works."
It may be more surprising that Israel's leadership doesn't even listen to its own professional intelligence echelon. During the media frenzy of the last days a crucial headline has received close to no attention: Mossad chief Meir Dagan told the Knesset's Foreign Relations Committee that Israel is gradually turning from a strategic asset into a liability for the United States of America.
As it's a bit difficult to brush aside Dagan as a softheaded idealist, our policy makers will find another way not to listen. They will say, "this would never have happened under George W. Bush; this is only because the Obama administration is not friendly towards Israel. We simply need to wait for Obama to end this term; he won't get reelected."
Nothing could be further from the truth. I have heard warnings that Israel is becoming a strategic liability for the U.S. from Americans, including high ranking members of the George W. Bush administration, for years. The only difference is that during the Bush years, nobody in the administration would say this on record or for attribution.
I doubt the government will listen even to Dagan: Netanyahu is frozen; Moshe Ya'alon believes in Israel's eternal right to the Greater Israel; Eli Yishai has no clue about international relations; and Barak seems to have lost the ability to think clearly a long time ago.
I wish I could end on a note of optimism; I wish I could point out a psychological mechanism that will unblock Israel's leadership from fear and self-righteousness. But I share David Grossman's despair. All that is left for those of us who want to save Israel from itself - whether Israelis, Jews in the Diaspora or gentiles - is to continue the call to reason, even if we don't know if, when and how it will be heard.
Just saw that Henning Mankell (author of the Wallander detective novels, among others) was on the Swedish ship in the flotilla - he's been released today and is back in Sweden.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898073,00.html
All the latest news on the Flotilla to be found on this link:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Gaza-TV-News/119275738102852
Quote from: Zapatista on June 02, 2010, 11:07:39 AM
Looks like the Government have finally taken direct action.
http://www.fiannafail.ie/page/s/gaza?source=gazapetition&utm_source=fiannafail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=gazapetition
They are going to petition the Israelis. >:(
How about this Government do something worth while for a change. They can stick their petition up their arse.
I say they should storm the Embassy and kidnap the Israeli ambassador. They can then offer to swap the ambassador for Irish hostages held in Israel.
I say storm the embassy shooting and when he grabs the closest object to him to defend himself put a bullet in his head and claim we've a right to defend Ireland.
Quote from: give her dixie on June 02, 2010, 06:48:24 PM
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898073,00.html
"Rightist lawmaker Moshe Mutz Matalon (Yisrael Beitenu) told Zoabi, "Nice work. In one day you've managed to accomplish what the treacherous people around you have been trying to do for years.
Unfortunately, the (commando) fighters (who raided the aid flotilla) acted with too much restraint. They left only nine floating voters."
Taken from the link Dixie posted - f**king shocking!! And this said in their "democratic" parliament
Quote from:
I say they should storm the Embassy and kidnap the Israeli ambassador. They can then offer to swap the ambassador for Irish hostages held in Israel./b]
I say storm the embassy shooting and when he grabs the closest object to him to defend himself put a bullet in his head and claim we've a right to defend Ireland.
[/quote]
Eh I can see several issues with that pog. :o
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2010, 09:35:08 PM
Quote from:
I say they should storm the Embassy and kidnap the Israeli ambassador. They can then offer to swap the ambassador for Irish hostages held in Israel./b]
I say storm the embassy shooting and when he grabs the closest object to him to defend himself put a bullet in his head and claim we've a right to defend Ireland.
Eh I can see several issues with that pog. :o
[/quote]
You should be glad I'm not Taoiseach then!
Ah ok I mighten shoot him but I'd have him kidnapped and held hostage, maybe make him watch re runs of Dana on the late late show or something for a few days before putting him on a plane home.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on June 02, 2010, 09:41:44 PM
Quote from: stew on June 02, 2010, 09:35:08 PM
Quote from:
I say they should storm the Embassy and kidnap the Israeli ambassador. They can then offer to swap the ambassador for Irish hostages held in Israel./b]
I say storm the embassy shooting and when he grabs the closest object to him to defend himself put a bullet in his head and claim we've a right to defend Ireland.
Eh I can see several issues with that pog. :o
You should be glad I'm not Taoiseach then!
Ah ok I mighten shoot him but I'd have him kidnapped and held hostage, maybe make him watch re runs of Dana on the late late show or something for a few days before putting him on a plane home.
[/quote]
:D :D :D :D
Now thats the real pints we have come know know and love. Dana :D :D :D I think he would have rather ye put a bullet in his brain.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0602/breaking43.html
The Government has decided to delay publishing its response to the use of fake Irish passports in a recent secret service assassination, Minister for Foreign Affairs Michael Martin said today.
Mr Martin said he did not want the scandal to be clouded by massive international outrage over the storming of Gaza-bound aid ships and the killing of nine activists by Israeli military
What the f**k is this all about? The findings of this report should be released immediately. There will be no clouding of the issue. f**king cowards.
I want to know how these passports got into the hands of Israeli assassins and I want someone made accountable. If it came from the Israeli embassy they should be raided and arrested for war crimes. If there were any Irish involved they should be arrested and charged with treason.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 02, 2010, 11:37:17 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0602/breaking43.html
The Government has decided to delay publishing its response to the use of fake Irish passports in a recent secret service assassination, Minister for Foreign Affairs Michael Martin said today.
Mr Martin said he did not want the scandal to be clouded by massive international outrage over the storming of Gaza-bound aid ships and the killing of nine activists by Israeli military
What the f**k is this all about? The findings of this report should be released immediately. There will be no clouding of the issue. f**king cowards.
I want to know how these passports got into the hands of Israeli assassins and I want someone made accountable. If it came from the Israeli embassy they should be raided and arrested for war crimes. If there were any Irish involved they should be arrested and charged with treason.
What he means is, the whitewash won't wash in the current climate. Read animal farm.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0603/mideast.html
Irish citizen injured as activists deported
At least one Irish citizen deported from Israel was slightly injured in scuffles with Israeli security personnel at Tel Aviv airport late last night.
Reports are sketchy but it appears trouble broke out as the detainees were about to board a Turkish plane bound for Istanbul.
The flight departed shortly afterwards carrying three of the five Irish passport holders. One other, who has diabetes, was taken out earlier.
RTE shouldn't be using language like the detainees and the so-called 'Freedom Flotilla' .
They are hostages and it is called the Freedom Flotilla!
Any news on the MV Rachel Corrie?
Quote from: Down South on June 03, 2010, 09:21:17 AM
Any news on the MV Rachel Corrie?
Hit's the danger zone sometime tomorrow I think. The owner said he will try to run the blockade although this could be more to put pressure on our government than anything else.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 03, 2010, 09:26:46 AM
Quote from: Down South on June 03, 2010, 09:21:17 AM
Any news on the MV Rachel Corrie?
Hit's the danger zone sometime tomorrow I think. The owner said he will try to run the blockade although this could be more to put pressure on our government than anything else.
Don't worry, I'm sure they won't stand idly by.
I have recieved a PM asking me to change the thread title.
It seems people are believing the BIBC total of 9.
I will change the title whenever the Israeli's release the official number.
It is now 4 DAYS since the massacres, and still, they will not release details.
To the best of my knowledge, there is between 16-20 dead.
I have a whole lot to write about this massacre, and in the coming days, I will write in depth.
There are a lot of things that have happened, and unfortunatley due to the fact that not everyone has
been released, I cannot reveal details.
I will say this much though: What happened on Monday was a sadistic brutal callous controlled execution
of unarmed innocent humanitarians. Certain individuals were singled out, and well, you know the outcome.
The pirates had handbooks with the photo's and details of those on board who either needed to be executed,
or needed a beating.
My friends are now in Istanbul, and will be flying into London tonight. My colleague, Kevin Ovenden, issued the
following statement in Istanbul late last night:
""THE MASSACRE ON THE MAVI MARMARA MUST BE A TURNING POINT.
PASSENGERS FROM 32 COUNTRIES WERE MURDEROUSLY ATTACKED BY THE ISRAELI FORCES.
THIS IS THE SHARPEVILLE AND THE SOWETO OF THE MOVEMENT FOR PALESTINIAN SOLIDARITY.
PEOPLE OF THOSE COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD MUST NOW TELL THEIR GOVERNMENTS THAT WE ARE
NOT PREPARED TO CONTINUE TO ALLOW ISRAEL TO FLOUT INTERNATIONAL LAW.
THE INHUMAN SIEGE OF GAZA MUST END NOW!
THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS USED TERROR FOR POLITICAL ENDS. BUT WE ARE NOT AFRAID.
WE WHO SURVIVED THE MAVI MARMARA MASSACRE WILL REDOUBLE OUR EFFORTS TO BRING HUMANITARIAN
ASSISTANCE TO THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE AND END THIS SIEGE!""
Some video clips from hostages who have returned home:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Gaza-TV-News/119275738102852?v=wall&story_fbid=113065552070889#!/pages/Gaza-TV-News/119275738102852?v=wall&story_fbid=122095967827663
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW0CMlqEDdE
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10222131.stm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ9syFuKW7o
Make up your own mind on this example of arrogance
Quote from: give her dixie on June 03, 2010, 10:36:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ9syFuKW7o
Make up your own mind on this example of arrogance
To be fair dixie, any nutjob can upload their opinion on youtube. You wouldnt be long in finding extremist opinions of every hue online.
Yeah, you're right Whiskysteve, it is only one person.
Do the thousands in these video's constitute as 1 person?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdhKqGoMJms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbOw6ZFl6FE&feature=related
Quote from: give her dixie on June 03, 2010, 11:42:53 AM
Yeah, you're right Whiskysteve, it is only one person.
Do the thousands in these video's constitute as 1 person?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdhKqGoMJms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbOw6ZFl6FE&feature=related
horrible hateful bastards
Demonstation in London. I knew I'd seen it. About 4 and a half minutes in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcXhmSZP1w4
19 year old US citizen executed with 4 bullets to the head, and 1 in his chest on board the Flotilla:
A U.S. citizen who lived in Turkey is among the nine people killed when Israeli commandos stormed a Turkish aid ship heading for the Gaza Strip, officials said today. The victim was identified as Furkan Dogan, 19, a Turkish-American. A forensic report said he was shot at close range, with four bullets in his head and one in his chest, according to the Anatolian news agency.
Israeli forces are seen aboard one of six ships bound for Gaza in the Mediterranean Sea May 31,...
Dogan was a high school student studying social sciences in the town of Kayseri in central Turkey. He was born in the United States and moved to Turkey at the age of 2. He will be buried in his hometown tomorrow.
Dogan's body was returned to Turkey today along with eight others, all Turkish nationals, who were on board the Mavi Marmara.
Israeli PM Says Aid Ship Was 'Not a Love Boat'Clinton to Israel: Make 'Credible' Flotilla Probe.
The ship was sponsored by a Turkish charity, the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (IHH) and was carrying aid to Gaza in defiance of the Israeli blockade. The charity released the names of all nine dead. All are male and the ages range from 32 to 61.
The Mavi Marmara formed part of a flotilla that was organized by the Free Gaza movement and intended to break the three-year Israeli blockade on the embattled Palestinian enclave.
Israeli commandos rappelled onto the decks of the six ships Monday, but on the Mavi Marmara the passengers battled the soldiers with metal rods, wrested weapons from soldiers and, according to the Israeli military, fired on them. Nine people died and more than 30 were wounded, including several Israeli troops.
The activists on board the ship told a very different version of events from the one released by the Israeli military.
A Canadian on board, Farooq Burney, described watching an elderly man bleed to death. The head of a Turkish charity that organized the aid flotilla said an Indonesian doctor was shot in the stomach and a photographer was shot in the forehead.
Flotillas and the Wars of Public Opinion
By George Friedman
May 31, 2010
On Sunday, Israeli naval forces intercepted the ships of a Turkish nongovernmental organization (NGO) delivering humanitarian supplies to Gaza. Israel had demanded that the vessels not go directly to Gaza but instead dock in Israeli ports, where the supplies would be offloaded and delivered to Gaza. The Turkish NGO refused, insisting on going directly to Gaza. Gunfire ensued when Israeli naval personnel boarded one of the vessels, and a significant number of the passengers and crew on the ship were killed or wounded.
Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon charged that the mission was simply an attempt to provoke the Israelis. That was certainly the case. The mission was designed to demonstrate that the Israelis were unreasonable and brutal. The hope was that Israel would be provoked to extreme action, further alienating Israel from the global community and possibly driving a wedge between Israel and the United States. The operation's planners also hoped this would trigger a political crisis in Israel.
A logical Israeli response would have been avoiding falling into the provocation trap and suffering the political repercussions the Turkish NGO was trying to trigger. Instead, the Israelis decided to make a show of force. The Israelis appear to have reasoned that backing down would demonstrate weakness and encourage further flotillas to Gaza, unraveling the Israeli position vis-à-vis Hamas. In this thinking, a violent interception was a superior strategy to accommodation regardless of political consequences. Thus, the Israelis accepted the bait and were provoked.
The 'Exodus' Scenario
In the 1950s, an author named Leon Uris published a book called "Exodus." Later made into a major motion picture, Exodus told the story of a Zionist provocation against the British. In the wake of World War II, the British - who controlled Palestine, as it was then known - maintained limits on Jewish immigration there. Would-be immigrants captured trying to run the blockade were detained in camps in Cyprus. In the book and movie, Zionists planned a propaganda exercise involving a breakout of Jews - mostly children - from the camp, who would then board a ship renamed the Exodus. When the Royal Navy intercepted the ship, the passengers would mount a hunger strike. The goal was to portray the British as brutes finishing the work of the Nazis. The image of children potentially dying of hunger would force the British to permit the ship to go to Palestine, to reconsider British policy on immigration, and ultimately to decide to abandon Palestine and turn the matter over to the United Nations.
There was in fact a ship called Exodus, but the affair did not play out precisely as portrayed by Uris, who used an amalgam of incidents to display the propaganda war waged by the Jews. Those carrying out this war had two goals. The first was to create sympathy in Britain and throughout the world for Jews who, just a couple of years after German concentration camps, were now being held in British camps. Second, they sought to portray their struggle as being against the British. The British were portrayed as continuing Nazi policies toward the Jews in order to maintain their empire. The Jews were portrayed as anti-imperialists, fighting the British much as the Americans had.
It was a brilliant strategy. By focusing on Jewish victimhood and on the British, the Zionists defined the battle as being against the British, with the Arabs playing the role of people trying to create the second phase of the Holocaust. The British were portrayed as pro-Arab for economic and imperial reasons, indifferent at best to the survivors of the Holocaust. Rather than restraining the Arabs, the British were arming them. The goal was not to vilify the Arabs but to villify the British, and to position the Jews with other nationalist groups whether in India or Egypt rising against the British.
The precise truth or falsehood of this portrayal didn't particularly matter. For most of the world, the Palestine issue was poorly understood and not a matter of immediate concern. The Zionists intended to shape the perceptions of a global public with limited interest in or understanding of the issues, filling in the blanks with their own narrative. And they succeeded.
The success was rooted in a political reality. Where knowledge is limited, and the desire to learn the complex reality doesn't exist, public opinion can be shaped by whoever generates the most powerful symbols. And on a matter of only tangential interest, governments tend to follow their publics' wishes, however they originate. There is little to be gained for governments in resisting public opinion and much to be gained by giving in. By shaping the battlefield of public perception, it is thus possible to get governments to change positions.
In this way, the Zionists' ability to shape global public perceptions of what was happening in Palestine - to demonize the British and turn the question of Palestine into a Jewish-British issue - shaped the political decisions of a range of governments. It was not the truth or falsehood of the narrative that mattered. What mattered was the ability to identify the victim and victimizer such that global opinion caused both London and governments not directly involved in the issue to adopt political stances advantageous to the Zionists. It is in this context that we need to view the Turkish flotilla.
The Turkish Flotilla to Gaza
The Palestinians have long argued that they are the victims of Israel, an invention of British and American imperialism. Since 1967, they have focused not so much on the existence of the state of Israel (at least in messages geared toward the West) as on the oppression of Palestinians in the occupied territories. Since the split between Hamas and Fatah and the Gaza War, the focus has been on the plight of the citizens of Gaza, who have been portrayed as the dispossessed victims of Israeli violence.
The bid to shape global perceptions by portraying the Palestinians as victims of Israel was the first prong of a longtime two-part campaign. The second part of this campaign involved armed resistance against the Israelis. The way this resistance was carried out, from airplane hijackings to stone-throwing children to suicide bombers, interfered with the first part of the campaign, however. The Israelis could point to suicide bombings or the use of children against soldiers as symbols of Palestinian inhumanity. This in turn was used to justify conditions in Gaza. While the Palestinians had made significant inroads in placing Israel on the defensive in global public opinion, they thus consistently gave the Israelis the opportunity to turn the tables. And this is where the flotilla comes in.
The Turkish flotilla aimed to replicate the Exodus story or, more precisely, to define the global image of Israel in the same way the Zionists defined the image that they wanted to project. As with the Zionist portrayal of the situation in 1947, the Gaza situation is far more complicated than as portrayed by the Palestinians. The moral question is also far more ambiguous. But as in 1947, when the Zionist portrayal was not intended to be a scholarly analysis of the situation but a political weapon designed to define perceptions, the Turkish flotilla was not designed to carry out a moral inquest.
Instead, the flotilla was designed to achieve two ends. The first is to divide Israel and Western governments by shifting public opinion against Israel. The second is to create a political crisis inside Israel between those who feel that Israel's increasing isolation over the Gaza issue is dangerous versus those who think any weakening of resolve is dangerous.
The Geopolitical Fallout for Israel
It is vital that the Israelis succeed in portraying the flotilla as an extremist plot. Whether extremist or not, the plot has generated an image of Israel quite damaging to Israeli political interests. Israel is increasingly isolated internationally, with heavy pressure on its relationship with Europe and the United States.
In all of these countries, politicians are extremely sensitive to public opinion. It is difficult to imagine circumstances under which public opinion will see Israel as the victim. The general response in the Western public is likely to be that the Israelis probably should have allowed the ships to go to Gaza and offload rather than to precipitate bloodshed. Israel's enemies will fan these flames by arguing that the Israelis prefer bloodshed to reasonable accommodation. And as Western public opinion shifts against Israel, Western political leaders will track with this shift.
The incident also wrecks Israeli relations with Turkey, historically an Israeli ally in the Muslim world with longstanding military cooperation with Israel. The Turkish government undoubtedly has wanted to move away from this relationship, but it faced resistance within the Turkish military and among secularists. The new Israeli action makes a break with Israel easy, and indeed almost necessary for Ankara.
With roughly the population of Houston, Texas, Israel is just not large enough to withstand extended isolation, meaning this event has profound geopolitical implications.
Public opinion matters where issues are not of fundamental interest to a nation. Israel is not a fundamental interest to other nations. The ability to generate public antipathy to Israel can therefore reshape Israeli relations with countries critical to Israel. For example, a redefinition of U.S.-Israeli relations will have much less effect on the United States than on Israel. The Obama administration, already irritated by the Israelis, might now see a shift in U.S. public opinion that will open the way to a new U.S.-Israeli relationship disadvantageous to Israel.
The Israelis will argue that this is all unfair, as they were provoked. Like the British, they seem to think that the issue is whose logic is correct. But the issue actually is, whose logic will be heard? As with a tank battle or an airstrike, this sort of warfare has nothing to do with fairness. It has to do with controlling public perception and using that public perception to shape foreign policy around the world. In this case, the issue will be whether the deaths were necessary. The Israeli argument of provocation will have limited traction.
Internationally, there is little doubt that the incident will generate a firestorm. Certainly, Turkey will break cooperation with Israel. Opinion in Europe will likely harden. And public opinion in the United States - by far the most important in the equation - might shift to a "plague-on-both-your-houses" position.
While the international reaction is predictable, the interesting question is whether this evolution will cause a political crisis in Israel. Those in Israel who feel that international isolation is preferable to accommodation with the Palestinians are in control now. Many in the opposition see Israel's isolation as a strategic threat. Economically and militarily, they argue, Israel cannot survive in isolation. The current regime will respond that there will be no isolation. The flotilla aimed to generate what the government has said would not happen.
The tougher Israel is, the more the flotilla's narrative takes hold. As the Zionists knew in 1947 and the Palestinians are learning, controlling public opinion requires subtlety, a selective narrative and cynicism. As they also knew, losing the battle can be catastrophic. It cost Britain the Mandate and allowed Israel to survive. Israel's enemies are now turning the tables. This maneuver was far more effective than suicide bombings or the Intifada in challenging Israel's public perception and therefore its geopolitical position (though if the Palestinians return to some of their more distasteful tactics like suicide bombing, the Turkish strategy of portraying Israel as the instigator of violence will be undermined).
Israel is now in uncharted waters. It does not know how to respond. It is not clear that the Palestinians know how to take full advantage of the situation, either. But even so, this places the battle on a new field, far more fluid and uncontrollable than what went before. The next steps will involve calls for sanctions against Israel. The Israeli threats against Iran will be seen in a different context, and Israeli portrayal of Iran will hold less sway over the world.
And this will cause a political crisis in Israel. If this government survives, then Israel is locked into a course that gives it freedom of action but international isolation. If the government falls, then Israel enters a period of domestic uncertainty. In either case, the flotilla achieved its strategic mission. It got Israel to take violent action against it. In doing so, Israel ran into its own fist.
Lads/ladies
Did any of you hear the Israeli comments on prime time tonight on RTE1?
Israeli citizens interviewed in a market by RTE officials were asked as to what should be done to the Incoming ships,some said shoot those onboard,an other said the boats should be torpedo'ed.
:o
Allied that to an Israeli officials pathetic attempts to excuse the raid and the blockade of Gaza,
the mind-set of these people is staggering.
Folks, some facts so far:
1. One man was shot in the head from a bullet fired from a helicopter, before ANY pirate boarded the ship.
2. After this, a white flag was raised, and the killing spree just started.
3. The Pirates attempted to board, and each passenger had the RIGHT to defend themselves, and the ship, under International Law.
4. The pirates had handbooks detailing photo's and descriptions of certain passengers who needed SPECIAL treatment.
5. They sought out those people, and well, we all know what happened.
6. People were executed by shots to the head. Some got several shots.
7. Everyone was cable tied for 24 hours, and if they wanted to use the toilet, well, they had to piss in their pants.
8. They held a 1 year old child, pointed a gun at his head, and ordered the captain to sail to Israhell.
9. They REFUSED any medical aid to those who were injured, and many bled to death.
10. They dished out severe beatings to many people in custody.
11. 8 Turks are dead, 1 US citizen, 2 Sweedish, and 8 remain unaccounted for.
12. Every Non Turkish ship was sabotaged before they set sail.
13. Every politician who travelled to Cyprus to board were denied to leave.
14. Every country in the world condemned Israhell, EXCEPT the USA.
15. Every phone, computer, camera, and other personal item was siezed by Israhelli Pirates, and not returned.
16. Israhell want to go to war with Iran, and well, what better way to start it than to illegally attack the foltilla.
17. Atatcking the Turkish ship, is an act of declaring war on Turkey.
18. A US registered boat was attacked, (not for the 1st time), and the US fail to condemn it.
19 This is an act of declaring war on the US
20. A Greek boat was attacked, and that is the same as declaring war on Greece.
So, as you can see, these are gruesome facts, and they are horrific, to say the least.
So, what is the world leaders going to do?
Well, to be honest, nothing.
Why? Because Israhell have 300 Nuclear weapons, and they are not afraid of using them, given the right opportunity.
The world is not a very safe place right now, and to be honest, I am afraid because they will stop at nothing until they have world domination. They already have th eUS doing what they want, and everyone else will follow suit, out of fear.................................
Take a bow United States Of America, for arming a rogue state who don't give one flying f**k about humanity.......
(http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/gazachart.jpg)
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 04, 2010, 12:52:44 AM
Flotillas and the Wars of Public Opinion
By George Friedman
May 31, 2010
You can't with any seriousness compare Uris' Exodus with the Flotilla. Never mind the fact that the Exodus was Romantic Fiction the pre-dated Irael they were for completely different reasons.
The Exodus was one ship in many that sailed to Palestine in order to populate it with Jewish Planters and establish Israel.
The flotilla was/is a Mutli National Multi Religous aid effort for a people who are starving to death.
Considering this that article is bollocks.
The contribution of TUV candidate David Vance to the debate...
In a tweet posted yesterday he said:
"Hoping Israel deal with the MV Rachel Corrie – the Irish owned boat full of Hamas enablers. This time – no messing about." http://twitter.com/DVATW
Pig and grunt come to mind...
The real story from Mavi Marmara: They were shooting to kill
The Israeli massacre of unarmed campaigners aboard a ship carrying aid to Gaza is the "Sharpeville and Soweto of the Movement for Palestinian Solidarity," one of those who survived the bloodthirsty assault has said.
Speaking to the Star from Istanbul shortly after his release from an Israeli jail British campaigner Kevin Ovenden, who was aboard the Mavi Marmara - the boat that bore the brunt of a terrifying raid by gun-toting Israeli commandos - described the attack as a "murderous assault" and "an act of political terrorism."
Israeli security forces stormed the Mavi Marmara in international waters on Sunday night as it ferried 500 unarmed protesters towards Gaza.
The assault killed nine and injured dozens more, sparking worldwide condemnation.
Israel attempted to claim that its shock troops acted in self-defence after coming under attack, blaming the protesters for provoking the situation and being "terrorist supporters."
But Mr Ovenden told the Morning Star: "This was a peaceful humanitarian mission in international waters. The youngest person on board was not yet one, the oldest was 88 years old.
"We had no weapons on board. The Israelis are displaying knives taken from the kitchen. People did defend themselves with whatever was at hand.
"The attack started with percussion grenades and we feared they would use tear gas. The Israeli commandos attacked from all sides and began shooting almost immediately, initially with so-called rubber bullets but certainly within two or three minutes we heard the unmistakable sound of live rounds.
"A colleague from Viva Palestina, Nicci Enchmarch, was next to a Turkish man who was holding a camera. He was shot through the middle of the forehead. The exit wound blew away the back of his skull and she cradled him in her arms as he died."
At least four of those killed were shot through the head, he said.
Mr Ovenden praised the Turkish crew of the vessel as "truly heroic in their attempts to prevent further loss of life," saying they had taken two injured Israeli soldiers inside the ship to prevent them being hurt further in the panic and chaos.
Appeals to the Israeli forces telling them their soldiers were safe and that there were wounded people who needed assistance were ignored, he said.
"Where people had been sleeping was turned into a makeshift triage area. This turned into a makeshift mortuary. Despite repeated requests the Israeli forces refused to evacuate any of the injured for more than an hour.
"I saw severely injured people dragged like sacks of potatoes up the stairwells, their bodies banging against the steel."
Mr Ovenden was transported to BeerSheeva jail where he was held until his eventual release and extradition.
The brutality and degradation continued throughout their ordeal only improving slightly when the British consular official arrived at the prison.
Summing up the horrific events aboard the Mavi Marmara, he said: "This is the Sharpeville and Soweto of the movement for Palestinian solidarity and it must mark a turning point in world opinion and in the actions of governments around the world to end this immoral and illegal siege and the treatment the Israelis mete out to Palestinians.
"We experienced it for 48 hours but they have endured this for 62 years."
Despite the horrific ordeal Mr Ovenden said he would be prepared to make the trip again after the families of some of those murdered asked that their loss not be in vain.
I know the source may be biased but on Question Time last night one of the panelists claimed that some of the Turkish people on the boat wanted to be Martyred. Claimed this was told by the family members on Turkish TV. I hope this is not true.
Said panelist was Kelvin McKenzie, hate filled ****.
Quote from: deiseach on June 04, 2010, 09:05:51 AM
(http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/gazachart.jpg)
Surely black pepper throw into the eyes is going to be a much better weapon than a bunch of coriander aand hitting someone with a piece of frozen fish is going to be more painful than being whacked with a newspaper ??? ::)
Israel is simply shameless
Israel has confiscated some of the most important material for the investigation, namely the films, audio sections and photos taken by the passengers and journalists on board and the Mavi Marmara's security cameras. Since yesterday, Israel has been editing these films and using them for its own PR campaign.
Check this out also:
- Israeli soldier who killed six of passengers might receive medal of honour
- IDF Retracts claims about flotilla's Al Qaeda links.
(from the promised land blog)
Look at the people murdered- most them were fathers .
http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/06/putting-names-to-faces.html
The Gaza siege's days are numbered. Even if the US gives Israel cover on this occasion enough damage has been done to Israel's image in the court of world opinion.
Quote from: deiseach on June 04, 2010, 09:05:51 AM
(http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/gazachart.jpg)
Israel won't allow building materials into Gaza. 5000 people remain homeless following the Israeli assault on Gaza in 2009.
Israel doesn't allow non Jews to build in East Jerusalem. It doesn't allow Palestinians to build on the 60% of the West Bank it claims is state land that belongs to Israel for the exclusive use of Zionist Jews.
Israel has turned into a nightmare.
Take Action to hold Israel to account over the murder of international human rights activists and the hijacking of their aid flotilla
http://www.ipsc.ie/flotilla/index.html
1) Attend the protests taking place today around the country
2) Send a letter of protest to Irish TDs demanding the Irish Government take action aginst Israel (sample letter and email addresses below)
3) Call the Department of Foreign Affairs on (01) 4780822 and demand action.
4) Call the Israeli Embassy in Ireland and let them know how you feel about this outrageous attack - (01) 230 9400 / 087 61711218 (out of hours number), fax them on (01) 230 9446 or email them on info@dublin.mfa.gov.il - The more the better!
5) Support the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaign
6) Sign the contact.ie petition calling for the explusion of the Israeli Ambassador
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on June 04, 2010, 11:17:24 AM
Said panelist was Kelvin McKenzie, hate filled ****.
As much as McKenzie is a **** of the highest order, I just couldn't get my head around that Matthew Parris f**ker saying he had no interest in the issue as it was nothing to do with Britain.
Obviously never studied Britism imperialism at whatever private buggering school he went to.
Letter From Israel: The Flotilla in the Israeli Press
By RAN HA COHEN
Published: Jun 4, 2010 01:33 Updated: Jun 4, 2010 01:33
In Antiwar.com, Ran Ha Cohen takes a look at how the Israeli media covered the assault on the "Freedom Flotilla" in his Letter From Israel.
Not many atrocities can be less controversial than Israel's attack on the Turkish-based flotilla heading to Gaza on Sunday night. Like Somali pirates, Israel attacked the boats in international waters. Like the darkest regimes, Israeli forces opened fire on unarmed civilians who had not posed a threat to anybody, except to the siege that Israel imposes on Gaza. Condemnation of what the Turkish prime minister rightly termed "an act of state terrorism" has been global, except for the shameful mumbling of the American government (but what can you expect from the complicit?).
In any normal place, you would expect masses to take to the streets and protest. Indeed, precisely this happened all over the globe. Not in Israel. A few hundred people did demonstrate in Tel Aviv and in several other towns, but then again a few hundred gathered to throw eggs at the Turkish Embassy. On the internal front, the Israeli government has nothing to worry about.
How is this consensus achieved? How can you turn millions of fairly educated citizens into silent lambs, or worse, into supporters of their own state's terrorism? If we concentrate on the short term, leaving aside, for the sake of brevity, decades of indoctrination, one can spot a few themes in the Israeli propaganda, which emerged during the first hours after the incident.
Recurrent Themes
The first theme was "weapons." The peace activists were quickly portrayed by Israel as "armed." The details changed with the minute: some media channels claimed they snatched a gun from an Israeli soldier, others said an empty ammunition magazine was found on board, others simply repeated the words "armed" or "carrying weapons" without bothering to explain. The adjective "cold" disappeared from the Hebrew dictionary: every knife, stick, stool, or cushion turned their holders into dangerous killers — especially when facing Israel's elite soldiers, who entered the boat peacefully and bare-handed (except for their unmentioned pistols, revolvers, hand grenades, tear gas, shockers, noise bombs, smoke bombs, protective vests, etc., etc.).
Soon after, an Israeli military spokesperson came out with the most lunatic theme of all: "Lynching." The Israeli soldiers, so official Israel shamelessly claimed, had to save themselves from being lynched by the activists. This is a direct continuation of the previous theme: when unarmed demonstrators are turned into armed killers, when armed elite soldiers kidnapping a boat become benevolent guests, one can describe the former as "lynching" the latter.
One has to be quite insane to describe armed soldiers as being lynched by unarmed civilians; it's an insult not only to intelligence, but to the soldiers themselves. This is why an alternative theme was introduced: "Battle." The confrontation on the boat has been explicitly termed "a battle," as if the poor Israeli Army (vessels, helicopters, electronic thwarting, etc.) was facing a raging Turkish battalion. Obviously, all three themes — "weapons," "lynching," and "battle" — imply the Israeli soldiers were obliged to open fire; they were the victims of the ruthless attack of the Turkish grand armada.
A fourth theme was "trap" (or "ambush"). This, again, enables Israel to portray those who set the trap — the flotilla — as aggressors, while the Israeli Army was, quite unfortunately, a passive, innocent victim of the hostile conspiracy.
Let's see how Tuesday's Israeli newspapers recycled these propaganda themes.
Tabloid One
The right-wing daily Ma'ariv put its headline in the middle of a blurred photo supplied by the Israeli Army, worded "the harsh attack on the fighters: cudgels, axes, and a fighter thrown off the deck." So now we know who the real victims are. The headline read: "The Failure (nine demonstrators killed, global rage, mumbling government, and exchange of accusations at the top) — And The Heroism (in spite of the intelligence failure and the hard violence, the commando fighters managed to take over the ships)." Criticizing the government is instrumental only to uniting behind the army, and the soldiers who spilled civilian blood are not less than "heroes." At the bottom of the page there were two interchangeable pictures, one showing demonstrators tearing an Israeli flag, the other depicting police arresting a demonstrator next to a great fire. Titles, respectively or otherwise: "Turkey is boiling" and "The [Israeli-Arab] Section Runs Wild." Both subtitles mentioned "Palestinian and Hamas flags everywhere," "torn Israeli flags," "furious mob," "Molotov cocktails, fire, and injured policemen."
Once again, note who's the aggressor and who's the victim in this story. None of Israel's newspapers, by the way, reported the demonstrations against the operation within Israel; at best, "riots" in Israeli-Arab towns were reported.
In addition, Ma'ariv gave six opinion and analysis columns, all starting on page 1. A whole spectrum of opinions. Journalist Ben Kaspit, under the hyper-critical title "Absolute Stupidity," opened his column with the following sentence: "First of all, let it be clear: We are on the right side in this story." The Israeli Daniel Pipes, demagogue Ben-Dror Yemini, scolded what he termed "A Leadership of Fools" for its "defeat in a battle against a ship of Hamasniks" — thus the activists were portrayed as Hamas terrorists and Israel's piratical invasion as a battle, in line with official propaganda. Ofer Shelach, a critical columnist, added a new aspect to the soldiers' victimhood: "From this day, the hands of the best unit in this army, whose combatants honestly join it in order to defend the state of Israel, are smeared with civilians' blood." That's as far as criticism goes. Beneath him, Alan Dershowitz urged "Do Not Rush to Pass Judgment," then immediately rushed to pass judgment that attacking the vessels outside Israel's territorial waters was a legitimate act. What can you expect from this discredited joker? Still, Dershowitz's imperative was polite compared to the two Israeli columnists beneath him, who directly commanded the readers to "Salute and Shut Up!": "The pictures will not persuade the hypocritical world, but they should persuade every Zionist Israeli, right or left, to thank the fighters...." At the bottom, journalist Shalom Yerushalmi made political calculations. "But what about the lynching?" you may ask. Don't worry: Ma'ariv's page 1 ended with a big headline at the very bottom: "Netanyahu: 'Israeli Soldiers Were Defending Themselves From a Lynching.'" All the propaganda themes are here.
Tabloid Two
The right-wing daily Yediot Achronot took a completely opposite line, as far as placing the "lynching" theme is concerned. Here it wasn't at the bottom, but at the very top of the page: "The Ambush: 'We Felt Like in a Lynching,' the Fighters Said." The big headline was a single word: "The Trap," theme number four. Within a big picture taken by Reuters (euphemistic wording for the kidnapping: "the marine commando boats escort one of the ships") three smaller pictures were printed: one worded "a soldier thrown off the deck," one worded "the weapons: knives and sticks," and a third one depicting a green cloth with Arabic inscription, upon which two dozen knives were scattered, some of them small kitchen knives; no wording, no credit. Ma'ariv had the same picture on page 8, with credit to "IDF spokesperson," who probably put the green cloth as a suggestive background.
Seven columnists made it to the front. Journalist Nahum Barnea said the "takeover" ended in "frustration": "Israel yesterday made an effort to prove that the people awaiting the commando on board were not human rights activists but violent thugs. I assume this is true. Still, the question is why Israel gave those thugs precisely what they wanted." Journalist Sima Kadmon paraphrased an Israeli cliché: "Where are the days when we were a bit less righteous but a bit wiser," implying the action was perfectly right but simply unwise. Extremely militaristic journalist Alex Fishman said the same differently: "the takeover was right and necessary, and will be right and necessary next time too." Analyst Sever Plotzker urged Defense Minister Ehud Barak to resign, not failing to name the true agent behind the maritime bloodbath: "the trap of Hamas provocation." Senior columnist and political adviser Eitan Haber opened on a good note: "one could have tried to solve this problem peacefully." Reading the rest of his article (page 8), one learns that he had been consulted in advance, but "I had no doubt that my suggestion as for how to deal with the flotilla of villains would be rejected." Haber's concern is in no way moral: he is just worried about Israel losing Turkey as an ally. Next, journalist Amnon Avramovitz explained that Netanyahu was repeatedly "unlucky," and, last but not least, right-wing columnist Hanoch Daum concluded: "It wasn't Israel that initiated the confrontation at sea, it wasn't Israel that attacked fighters with cold and warm weapons. And it's not Israel that should be held accountable. It's Hamas' fault. Instead of rejecting the world's ludicrous claims, we all start a session of self-accusation."
Quality Paper
How about Ha'aretz, Israel's liberal quality daily? The headline revealed the focus: "IDF's Failed Action Creates International Mess." Underneath it, four small pictures, one taken by the army — "throwing a soldier off the deck," the very same as in both tabloids (but decently smaller) — one by Reuters (same as in Yediot), one taken by the Israeli police, and one showing the defense minister with two uniformed generals. Quite unlike the tabloids, the word "lynch" here is neither at the top nor at the bottom, but in the small print in the center of the page: "Defense minister ... said yesterday the soldiers confronted extreme violence, and justified the decision to open fire in order to protect the fighters who, they said, were facing the risk of lynching." Four op-eds reached the front page of the Hebrew print edition: the editorial, columnists Ari Shavit and Amos Harel, and writer David Grossman. The former two can be found in English on the Internet; the latter two are missing as I write this. All of them were critical to some extent: the editorial demanded an investigation; Shavit drew an unoriginal historical analogy to the raid on the Exodus ship; Harel wrote that the army representatives had no real difficulty explaining the action to the Israeli public: given the "extreme violence" they met, the soldiers "had no other choice," being "exposed to injury and surrounded by a violent mass hitting them with sticks; under these circumstances, no wonder they fired live ammunition to defend themselves." What all three columns, though, highly regretted was the damage to Israel's image. Not a word about morality or legitimacy: it's Israel's image which is at stake. Because of this single flaw, the world might err to think that Israel is no longer the peace-seeking, law-abiding, sane, moderate, and benevolent country it actually is.
The one mild exception was David Grossman, who used the word "crime" for the crime, and even though he too recycled the "trap" metaphor, he did distinguish between the "small, fanatic Turkish organization" behind the flotilla and the "hundreds of activists for freedom and justice" on board. Grossman also equated the action carried out outside Israel's territorial water to an act of piracy. He saw the action in the broader context of Israel's "outrageous" siege on Gaza, and his final paragraph can summarize not only his, but my own column as well:
"More than anything else, this crazy operation is evidence for the place that Israel has reached. There is no point in elaborating. Whoever has eyes in his head sees and feels it. No doubt, within hours some swift minds would find a way to turn the (natural, justified) feelings of guilt of many Israelis into a vociferous accusation against the entire world. The shame, however, would be more difficult to come to terms with."
— Dr. Ran Ha Cohen is a university teacher in Israel, known for his strong criticism of Israel's policies. He grew up in Israel, but was born in the Netherlands.
How Israeli propaganda shaped U.S. media coverage of the flotilla attack
By Glenn Greenwald
It was clear from the moment news of the flotilla attack emerged that Israel was taking extreme steps to suppress all evidence about what happened other than its own official version. They detained all passengers on the ship and barred the media from speaking with them, thus, as The NYT put it, "refusing to permit journalists access to witnesses who might contradict Israel's version of events." They detained the journalists who were on the ship for days and seized their film, video and cameras. And worst of all, the IDF -- while still refusing to disclose the full, unedited, raw footage of the incident -- quickly released an extremely edited video of their commandos landing on the ship, which failed even to address, let alone refute, the claim of the passengers: that the Israelis were shooting at the ship before the commandos were on board.
This campaign of suppression and propaganda worked to shape American media coverage (as state propaganda campaigns virtually always work on the gullible, authority-revering American media). The edited IDF video was shown over and over on American television without question or challenge. Israeli officials and Israel-devoted commentators appeared all over television -- almost always unaccompanied by any Turkish, Palestinian or Muslim critics of the raid -- to spout the Israeli version without opposition. Israel-centric pundits in America claimed, based on the edited IDF video, that anyone was lying who even reported on the statements of the passengers that Israeli fired first. In sum, that the Israelis used force only after the passengers attacked the commandos became Unquestioned Truth in American discourse.
But now that the passengers and journalists have been released from Israeli detention and are speaking out, a much different story is emerging. As I noted yesterday, numerous witnesses and journalists are describing Israeli acts of aggression, including the shooting of live ammunition, before the commandos landed. The New York Times blogger Robert Mackey today commendably compiles that evidence -- I recommend it highly -- and he writes: "now that the accounts of activists and journalists who were detained by Israel after the raid are starting to be heard, it is clear that their stories and that of the Israeli military do not match in many ways." As Juan Cole says: "Many passengers have now confirmed that they were fired on even before the commandos had boots on the deck. Presumably it is this suppressive fire that killed or wounded some passengers and which provoked an angry reaction and an attack on the commandos."
Whether the Israelis fired at the passengers before or after landing on the ship matters little to the crux of what happened here. The initial act of aggression was the Israeli seizing of a ship in international waters which was doing nothing hostile; that action was taken to enforce a horrific, inhumane blockade and, more generally, a brutal, decades-long occupation; and whatever else is true, at least nine civilians were killed by the Israeli Navy, only the latest example of Israel (and the U.S.) using massive military force against civilians.
But this incident illustrates -- yet again -- the eagerness of the American media to "report" on events by doing nothing but mindlessly repeating official government claims. How many of the TV hosts who paraded Israeli officials in front of their audiences all week will put these witnesses on their shows to narrate their version of events? Devotees to Israel have already been convinced that this ship was full of Terrorists and Terrorist-lovers (meaning: anyone who opposes Israeli policy), so anything these passengers say (indeed, anyone who disputes the Israeli version of events) will be automatically dismissed as unreliable -- just as Muslim villagers who claim that the U.S. military kills civilians (rather than "militants") are, for that reason alone, deemed suspect, and just as individuals who denied reports about Iraqi WMDs before the war were deemed suspect for that reason alone. But for those who are not committed to defending Israel no matter what it does, these witnesses deserve to be heard every bit as much as Israeli officials.
Nobody's claims are entitled to an automatic assumption of truth, including these passengers. But as Mackey argues, all of this compellingly underscores the need for an independent -- not an Israeli-led -- investigation. Mackey quotes Israeli journalist and blogger Noam Sheifaz:
Israel has confiscated some of the most important material for the investigation, namely the films, audio and photos taken by the passengers [and] journalists on board and the Mavi Marmara's security cameras. Since yesterday, Israel has been editing these films and using them for its own PR campaign. In other words, Israel has already confiscated most of the evidence, held it from the world and tampered with it. No court in the world would [trust] it to be the one examining it.
Just as is true for the U.S. on so many occasions, Israel has made unmistakably clear that it is interested only in propagandizing and obfuscating. The very idea that they can be trusted to reveal what actually happened is ludicrous on its face.
* * * * *
One of the more disturbing -- though predictable -- developments this week is the effort to suggest that Furkan Dogan, the 19-year-old American killed by the Israelis with four bullets to the head and one to the chest, is not a "real citizen." That, of course, tracks the prior Joe-Lieberman-led proposal to strip Americans of their citizenship (now being replicated in Israel) and the Obama administration's targeting of Americans for due-process-free assassinations. We now have at least two classes of citizenship: "real citizens" and "not really citizens." John Cole says all that needs to be said about this disgusting suggestion.
And for those who haven't done so, see my post from yesterday on the role that rank tribalism plays in causing so many Americans to remain devoted to justifying whatever Israel does.
QuoteNobody's claims are entitled to an automatic assumption of truth, including these passengers.
I think the above is very important to remember when jumping in with the automatic conclusions .... Neither side is whiter than white in all of this.
The title is still firmly in place too i see, the number is still at nine, hows about you change it to nine
til the facts are in, not so sure dramatizing a story of this magnitude does anyone any favors and isn't needed IMO.
It's maximum impact with you at all times with these titles John I'll give you that :-\
This is from Stratfor, some of the smartest geo-political analysts I have come across.
By George Friedman
On Sunday, Israeli naval forces intercepted the ships of a Turkish nongovernmental organization (NGO) delivering humanitarian supplies to Gaza. Israel had demanded that the vessels not go directly to Gaza but instead dock in Israeli ports, where the supplies would be offloaded and delivered to Gaza. The Turkish NGO refused, insisting on going directly to Gaza. Gunfire ensued when Israeli naval personnel boarded one of the vessels, and a significant number of the passengers and crew on the ship were killed or wounded.
Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon charged that the mission was simply an attempt to provoke the Israelis. That was certainly the case. The mission was designed to demonstrate that the Israelis were unreasonable and brutal. The hope was that Israel would be provoked to extreme action, further alienating Israel from the global community and possibly driving a wedge between Israel and the United States. The operation's planners also hoped this would trigger a political crisis in Israel.
A logical Israeli response would have been avoiding falling into the provocation trap and suffering the political repercussions the Turkish NGO was trying to trigger. Instead, the Israelis decided to make a show of force. The Israelis appear to have reasoned that backing down would demonstrate weakness and encourage further flotillas to Gaza, unraveling the Israeli position vis-à-vis Hamas. In this thinking, a violent interception was a superior strategy to accommodation regardless of political consequences. Thus, the Israelis accepted the bait and were provoked.
The 'Exodus' Scenario
In the 1950s, an author named Leon Uris published a book called "Exodus." Later made into a major motion picture, Exodus told the story of a Zionist provocation against the British. In the wake of World War II, the British - who controlled Palestine, as it was then known - maintained limits on Jewish immigration there. Would-be immigrants captured trying to run the blockade were detained in camps in Cyprus. In the book and movie, Zionists planned a propaganda exercise involving a breakout of Jews - mostly children - from the camp, who would then board a ship renamed the Exodus. When the Royal Navy intercepted the ship, the passengers would mount a hunger strike. The goal was to portray the British as brutes finishing the work of the Nazis. The image of children potentially dying of hunger would force the British to permit the ship to go to Palestine, to reconsider British policy on immigration, and ultimately to decide to abandon Palestine and turn the matter over to the United Nations.
There was in fact a ship called Exodus, but the affair did not play out precisely as portrayed by Uris, who used an amalgam of incidents to display the propaganda war waged by the Jews. Those carrying out this war had two goals. The first was to create sympathy in Britain and throughout the world for Jews who, just a couple of years after German concentration camps, were now being held in British camps. Second, they sought to portray their struggle as being against the British. The British were portrayed as continuing Nazi policies toward the Jews in order to maintain their empire. The Jews were portrayed as anti-imperialists, fighting the British much as the Americans had.
It was a brilliant strategy. By focusing on Jewish victimhood and on the British, the Zionists defined the battle as being against the British, with the Arabs playing the role of people trying to create the second phase of the Holocaust. The British were portrayed as pro-Arab for economic and imperial reasons, indifferent at best to the survivors of the Holocaust. Rather than restraining the Arabs, the British were arming them. The goal was not to vilify the Arabs but to villify the British, and to position the Jews with other nationalist groups whether in India or Egypt rising against the British.
The precise truth or falsehood of this portrayal didn't particularly matter. For most of the world, the Palestine issue was poorly understood and not a matter of immediate concern. The Zionists intended to shape the perceptions of a global public with limited interest in or understanding of the issues, filling in the blanks with their own narrative. And they succeeded.
The success was rooted in a political reality. Where knowledge is limited, and the desire to learn the complex reality doesn't exist, public opinion can be shaped by whoever generates the most powerful symbols. And on a matter of only tangential interest, governments tend to follow their publics' wishes, however they originate. There is little to be gained for governments in resisting public opinion and much to be gained by giving in. By shaping the battlefield of public perception, it is thus possible to get governments to change positions.
In this way, the Zionists' ability to shape global public perceptions of what was happening in Palestine - to demonize the British and turn the question of Palestine into a Jewish-British issue - shaped the political decisions of a range of governments. It was not the truth or falsehood of the narrative that mattered. What mattered was the ability to identify the victim and victimizer such that global opinion caused both London and governments not directly involved in the issue to adopt political stances advantageous to the Zionists. It is in this context that we need to view the Turkish flotilla.
The Turkish Flotilla to Gaza
The Palestinians have long argued that they are the victims of Israel, an invention of British and American imperialism. Since 1967, they have focused not so much on the existence of the state of Israel (at least in messages geared toward the West) as on the oppression of Palestinians in the occupied territories. Since the split between Hamas and Fatah and the Gaza War, the focus has been on the plight of the citizens of Gaza, who have been portrayed as the dispossessed victims of Israeli violence.
The bid to shape global perceptions by portraying the Palestinians as victims of Israel was the first prong of a longtime two-part campaign. The second part of this campaign involved armed resistance against the Israelis. The way this resistance was carried out, from airplane hijackings to stone-throwing children to suicide bombers, interfered with the first part of the campaign, however. The Israelis could point to suicide bombings or the use of children against soldiers as symbols of Palestinian inhumanity. This in turn was used to justify conditions in Gaza. While the Palestinians had made significant inroads in placing Israel on the defensive in global public opinion, they thus consistently gave the Israelis the opportunity to turn the tables. And this is where the flotilla comes in.
The Turkish flotilla aimed to replicate the Exodus story or, more precisely, to define the global image of Israel in the same way the Zionists defined the image that they wanted to project. As with the Zionist portrayal of the situation in 1947, the Gaza situation is far more complicated than as portrayed by the Palestinians. The moral question is also far more ambiguous. But as in 1947, when the Zionist portrayal was not intended to be a scholarly analysis of the situation but a political weapon designed to define perceptions, the Turkish flotilla was not designed to carry out a moral inquest.
Instead, the flotilla was designed to achieve two ends. The first is to divide Israel and Western governments by shifting public opinion against Israel. The second is to create a political crisis inside Israel between those who feel that Israel's increasing isolation over the Gaza issue is dangerous versus those who think any weakening of resolve is dangerous.
The Geopolitical Fallout for Israel
It is vital that the Israelis succeed in portraying the flotilla as an extremist plot. Whether extremist or not, the plot has generated an image of Israel quite damaging to Israeli political interests. Israel is increasingly isolated internationally, with heavy pressure on its relationship with Europe and the United States.
In all of these countries, politicians are extremely sensitive to public opinion. It is difficult to imagine circumstances under which public opinion will see Israel as the victim. The general response in the Western public is likely to be that the Israelis probably should have allowed the ships to go to Gaza and offload rather than to precipitate bloodshed. Israel's enemies will fan these flames by arguing that the Israelis prefer bloodshed to reasonable accommodation. And as Western public opinion shifts against Israel, Western political leaders will track with this shift.
The incident also wrecks Israeli relations with Turkey, historically an Israeli ally in the Muslim world with longstanding military cooperation with Israel. The Turkish government undoubtedly has wanted to move away from this relationship, but it faced resistance within the Turkish military and among secularists. The new Israeli action makes a break with Israel easy, and indeed almost necessary for Ankara.
With roughly the population of Houston, Texas, Israel is just not large enough to withstand extended isolation, meaning this event has profound geopolitical implications.
Public opinion matters where issues are not of fundamental interest to a nation. Israel is not a fundamental interest to other nations. The ability to generate public antipathy to Israel can therefore reshape Israeli relations with countries critical to Israel. For example, a redefinition of U.S.-Israeli relations will have much less effect on the United States than on Israel. The Obama administration, already irritated by the Israelis, might now see a shift in U.S. public opinion that will open the way to a new U.S.-Israeli relationship disadvantageous to Israel.
The Israelis will argue that this is all unfair, as they were provoked. Like the British, they seem to think that the issue is whose logic is correct. But the issue actually is, whose logic will be heard? As with a tank battle or an airstrike, this sort of warfare has nothing to do with fairness. It has to do with controlling public perception and using that public perception to shape foreign policy around the world. In this case, the issue will be whether the deaths were necessary. The Israeli argument of provocation will have limited traction.
Internationally, there is little doubt that the incident will generate a firestorm. Certainly, Turkey will break cooperation with Israel. Opinion in Europe will likely harden. And public opinion in the United States - by far the most important in the equation - might shift to a "plague-on-both-your-houses" position.
While the international reaction is predictable, the interesting question is whether this evolution will cause a political crisis in Israel. Those in Israel who feel that international isolation is preferable to accommodation with the Palestinians are in control now. Many in the opposition see Israel's isolation as a strategic threat. Economically and militarily, they argue, Israel cannot survive in isolation. The current regime will respond that there will be no isolation. The flotilla aimed to generate what the government has said would not happen.
The tougher Israel is, the more the flotilla's narrative takes hold. As the Zionists knew in 1947 and the Palestinians are learning, controlling public opinion requires subtlety, a selective narrative and cynicism. As they also knew, losing the battle can be catastrophic. It cost Britain the Mandate and allowed Israel to survive. Israel's enemies are now turning the tables. This maneuver was far more effective than suicide bombings or the Intifada in challenging Israel's public perception and therefore its geopolitical position (though if the Palestinians return to some of their more distasteful tactics like suicide bombing, the Turkish strategy of portraying Israel as the instigator of violence will be undermined).
Israel is now in uncharted waters. It does not know how to respond. It is not clear that the Palestinians know how to take full advantage of the situation, either. But even so, this places the battle on a new field, far more fluid and uncontrollable than what went before. The next steps will involve calls for sanctions against Israel. The Israeli threats against Iran will be seen in a different context, and Israeli portrayal of Iran will hold less sway over the world.
And this will cause a political crisis in Israel. If this government survives, then Israel is locked into a course that gives it freedom of action but international isolation. If the government falls, then Israel enters a period of domestic uncertainty. In either case, the flotilla achieved its strategic mission. It got Israel to take violent action against it. In doing so, Israel ran into its own fist.
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 04, 2010, 06:02:11 PM
QuoteNobody's claims are entitled to an automatic assumption of truth, including these passengers.
I think the above is very important to remember when jumping in with the automatic conclusions .... Neither side is whiter than white in all of this.
The title is still firmly in place too i see, the number is still at nine, hows about you change it to nine
til the facts are in, not so sure dramatizing a story of this magnitude does anyone any favors and isn't needed IMO.
It's maximum impact with you at all times with these titles John I'll give you that :-\
TO, would you care to elaborate on how neither side is whiter than white?
Can you give us any examples of how unarmed humanitarians are in the wrong, having been illegally attacked in International waters?
Would you have an opinion of your own, or will you take the line of the US and Israhell, and be the only ones to fail to condemn the attack?
Let me ask you, and others this question.
Seeing as an unarmed US citizen was executed with 4 bullets to his head, and the US have failed to condemn it, what do you think the reaction would be if Iran had of been responsible for carrying out such an attack?
As for the thread title, it will stand until the true facts are out in the open.
If you read my above post of points, you will see that there are still people unaccounted for.
Oh, and by the way, Israhell are now going to award one of the elite commando's with a medal for bravery for killing the unarmed US citizen, and 5 others.
It's maximum impact with you at all times with these titles John I'll give you that :-\
[/quote]
Cant argue with that.
TO, would you care to elaborate on how neither side is whiter than white?
Ok you are now Mother Theresa, we get it.
Can you give us any examples of how unarmed humanitarians are in the wrong, having been illegally attacked in International waters?
According to the Israelis some were armed, I dont believe that but there you go. You also knew that you would elicit a response and that they would react badly to the flotilla and you got what you wanted, publicity, job done I would say.
Would you have an opinion of your own, or will you take the line of the US and Israhell, and be the only ones to fail to condemn the attack?
Your hatred of Israel is there for all to see, you do yourself no favours calling the country by a deragotary name, it shows you up to be a hater of the State which is fine and also the people which is not. The attack was illegal and I am disgusted by the response of the US and the UN, their actions are disgraceful.
Let me ask you, and others this question.
Seeing as an unarmed US citizen was executed with 4 bullets to his head, and the US have failed to condemn it, what do you think the reaction would be if Iran had of been responsible for carrying out such an attack?
The yanks would have condemned the attck and issues immediate sanctions on Iran.
As for the thread title, it will stand until the true facts are out in the open.
So the actual number is unclear but you like the nice round number of twenty as it suits your agenda.
If you read my above post of points, you will see that there are still people unaccounted for.
Oh, and by the way, Israhell are now going to award one of the elite commando's with a medal for bravery for killing the unarmed US citizen, and 5 others.
[/quote]
That is disgusting, sick sad, and wrond, and the Brits for one have been doing it for centuries.
So the true facts are not in but you are choosing to leave the original number up there of your choosing, no agenda there.
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 04, 2010, 06:02:11 PM
QuoteNobody's claims are entitled to an automatic assumption of truth, including these passengers.
I think the above is very important to remember when jumping in with the automatic conclusions .... Neither side is whiter than white in all of this.
The title is still firmly in place too i see, the number is still at nine, hows about you change it to nine
til the facts are in, not so sure dramatizing a story of this magnitude does anyone any favors and isn't needed IMO.
It's maximum impact with you at all times with these titles John I'll give you that :-\
Its a bit like bloody sunday. Sure neither side was without blame. I mean, those civil rights protesters were told the march was banned and they made a political statement by trying to provoke the british army. Apparently one of them fired first and sure what could the brits do only slaughter as many as they could. Yeh - I can see where you are coming from TO. Amazing how little people can learn. So whats the latest shite from Fox news? Don't tell me, the humanitarian "activists" had a weapon of mass destruction, made by Iranians and blessed by Osama Bin Laden.
Activism is going to be the new terrorism. Humanitarianism is just not dramatic or sinister enough for the 'News' mongers.
Title changed. Is that satisfactory?
You should have left the word murder in the title
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 04, 2010, 08:14:29 PM
You should have left the word murder in the title
I could not agree more, this was nothing but State Sanctioned Murder and it looks to me that they will get away with it, absolutely disgusting and the US and UN should be absolutely ashamed of themselves in the way they have handled this situation.
Obama is a disaster at this stage and I think McCain would have been much better equipped to deal with this situation.
According to our resident Fox News Reporters, we need to wait until the facts are out before we can say that. We can't be too dramatic now can we?
Maybe the following report will shed some light on what happened:
Istanbul, Turkey (CNN) -- Autopsy results by forensics experts in Istanbul revealed that all nine of the men killed by Israeli commandoes aboard the humanitarian convoy that had planned to dock in Gaza died of gunshot wounds.
The autopsy results give clues about how the violence unfolded after Israeli commandoes stormed the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara in the pre-dawn hours on Monday.
Five of the men died with bullet wounds to the head, said Dr. Haluk Ince, the director of Istanbul's Medical Examination Institute, said Friday.
One casualty, a 19-year-old dual national Turkish-American citizen named Furkan Dogan, was found to have bullet wounds in his head and multiple bullets in his body, Ince said.
According to the U.S. State department, Dogan was born in Troy, New York and had been living in Turkey. American diplomats have been extending consular services to the deceased's family.
In one case, Ince said, a gunshot victim had been shot at at extremely close range.
"From the analysis of the bullet distance on one of the bodies," Dr. Ince said, "the gun was fired between 2 and 14 centimeters' distance from the victim's head."
In one month, the forensic report will be submitted to an Istanbul prosecutor's office. There have already been petitions from families of Turkish activists this week, submitted to state prosecutors to sue the government of Israel on charges of murder.
The dead activists were treated like fallen heroes at a mass funeral held at Istanbul's Fatih Mosque on Thursday. Crowds gathered in a courtyard, below the domes of the centuries' old Ottoman mosque, in front of the coffins, which were wrapped in Turkish and Palestinian flags. In one case, a flag from the Palestinian movement Hamas lay over a casket.
"We will remember this, what Israel did," said a young Turkish volunteer named Muhamed Sahin, who was helping hold back the surging crowd. "Everybody has to learn what is going on in Gaza, on the ship, what Israel did."
Periodically, the crowd chanted "Israel, terrorist" and "Damn Israel."
The bodies of the 9 dead, as well as more then 460 surviving passengers from the convoy arrived at Istanbul airport before dawn on Thursday. They were treated to a hero's welcome, particularly Bulent Yildirim, the chairman of the Islamist, fiercely pro-Palestinian Turkish charity the Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH). IHH was one of the main groups organizing the blockade-busting flotilla.
In remarks to the press, Yildirim said his colleagues fought Israeli troops in self-defense aboard the Mavi Marmara. He added that in the early stages of the clashes, his activists captured several Israel commandoes, as well as their weapons, and took them below decks.
The Israeli troops were given water, Yildirim said. He insisted none of the activists fired the captured Israeli guns.
Israeli officials have accused the protesters of firing captured weapons during the battle at sea. The Israeli military has also shown images of a commando being beaten with a plastic chair, as well as photos of knives, metal poles, slingshots and marbles as evidence that the Mavi Marmara was a "ship of hatred" full of terrorist sympathizers rather then a "love boat" filled with peace-loving human rights activists.
"The defense of the boat was quite well organized," said Espen Goffeng, a 38-year-old activist from Norway who sailed aboard the Mavi Marmara. "There was a plan to keep soldiers off the boat."
Goffeng said passengers aboard the lead ship Mavi Marmara at first successfully repelled Israeli troops on boats. Then, he said, soldiers began their helicopters assault on the vessel.
"They started off with some kind of paintball bullets with glass in them that left terrible soft tissue wounds. And then rubber bullets. And then live ammunition afterwards. And that's when things started to get really dangerous," Goffeng added.
Despite the tears and sobbing at Istanbul's Fatih Mosque on Thursday, many of the people gathered for the activists' funeral called this week a "victory," because it brought international attention to Israel's 3-year blockade of Gaza.
Turkey, once Israel's closest Muslim ally in the Middle East, has accused Israel of committing an act of international piracy.
"From now on, Turkish-Israeli ties will never be the same," Turkish President Abdullah Gul said on Thursday. "The incident has left a deep and irreparable scar."
According to a spokesman for the Turkish Foreign Ministry, Ankara has issued 3 demands to Israel: apologize for the raid, organize an independent investigation, and lift the blockade of Gaza.
What's the latest on the Irish ship?
Click on the following link to see some photo's of the attacks on the ship:
They are not for the faint hearted, and if you are easily offended, please do not click.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=174757&id=582489254&ref=mf
Irish Ship, Rachel Corrie, is now roughly 100 miles from Gaza.
It is expected to reach Gaza by early morning.
It is very very tense righht now, and it is anyones guess as to what the outcome will be.
I will be posting immediatley any news comes in.
Quote from: give her dixie on June 04, 2010, 08:53:38 PM
Irish Ship, Rachel Corrie, is now roughly 100 miles from Gaza.
It is expected to reach Gaza by early morning.
It is very very tense righht now, and it is anyones guess as to what the outcome will be.
I will be posting immediatley any news comes in.
Please do. Good luck to them!
Quote from: give her dixie on June 04, 2010, 08:53:38 PM
Irish Ship, Rachel Corrie, is now roughly 100 miles from Gaza.
It is expected to reach Gaza by early morning.
It is very very tense righht now, and it is anyones guess as to what the outcome will be.
I will be posting immediatley any news comes in.
This has disaster written all over it, the Israelis see that the governments of the world are hand wringing and I fear they will make an example of the people on Rachel Corrie, I hope to feck I am wrong.
Quote from: stew on June 04, 2010, 09:10:04 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 04, 2010, 08:53:38 PM
Irish Ship, Rachel Corrie, is now roughly 100 miles from Gaza.
It is expected to reach Gaza by early morning.
It is very very tense righht now, and it is anyones guess as to what the outcome will be.
I will be posting immediatley any news comes in.
This has disaster written all over it, the Israelis see that the governments of the world are hand wringing and I fear they will make an example of the people on Rachel Corrie, I hope to feck I am wrong.
Plenty of that on here.
Quote from: stew on June 04, 2010, 08:36:51 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 04, 2010, 08:14:29 PM
You should have left the word murder in the title
I could not agree more, this was nothing but State Sanctioned Murder and it looks to me that they will get away with it, absolutely disgusting and the US and UN should be absolutely ashamed of themselves in the way they have handled this situation.
Obama is a disaster at this stage and I think McCain would have been much better equipped to deal with this situation.
McCain would be worse. He's addicted to Ziocaine. The thing about Obama is you never know what he is really up to. the health thing looked dead in the water and he pulled something out of the bag. It looked like Bibi ran rings around him and then when Biden got ignored in Israel he really shafted Bibi in Washington. He made him wait for an hour while he went for something to eat. That just doesn't happen in global diplomacy. This latest charade is very very bad news strategically for Israel. There is an awful lot of political capital that has just disappeared. Israel has lot a lot of casual support. Trade flows from lesser things. The BDS campaign couldn't have got a bigger boost this week. People are going to think twice about brand Israel.
Speaking from Istanbul, Dr Fintan Lane, of the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign (IPSC), spoke of his experiences on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla which was attacked by Israeli forces on Monday and his time in Israeli detention. He said he was assaulted in custody, while three other Irish received severe beatings and one – Isam Bin Ali – remains unaccounted for. Dr. Lane is due to return to Ireland tomorrow afternoon where he will address a press conference in the City Centre.
Meanwhile, the Irish ship the MV Rachel Corrie continues en route o Gaza and is currently 400 miles away and is expected to arrive on Saturday. Speaking from the aid carrying ship, Dennis Halliday said: "We want to emphasise that our aim is not provocation but getting our aid cargo into Gaza. We are calling on the UN to inspect the cargo and escort us into Gaza, and to send a UN representative to sail on board before they enter the exclusion zone. We all remain in good spirits, and we want to thank everyone all over the world for all their support." The boat is traveling at approximately 210 miles a day, and is being captain by Eric Harcis, a Scottish man from Orkney.
Tthe IPSC with the support of ICTU has called a mass demonstration at 2pm on Saturday against the killings and in support of the Rachel Corrie.
Speaking from a hotel room in Istanbul, Dr Lane gave an update on the status of the Irish passengers who had been kidnapped by Israel on Monday. Dr Lane said: "I am currently in a hotel with Fiachra O Luian, both of us arrived here late last night. Fiachra was beaten up at the airport and has to go into hospital today for tests. Al Mahdi Al Harati suffered a diabetes related seizure on the plane and this, coming on top of a severe attack he received on board the Mavi Marmara, meant he had to be brought to hospital in Ankara last night."
Dr Lane continued: "Ken O'Keefe, the Irish-American passenger, suffered a severe beating at the hands of security officials at Tel Aviv airport before boarding, and his injuries were so bad that he had to be hospitalised in Tel Aviv – the Israelis are claiming this delay in his repatriation is for 'technical reasons', yet another Israeli lie. Finally, a number of passengers are still unaccounted for, among them the Libyan-Irishman Isam Bin Ali, who was due to be deported at 10am yesterday. No one I've spoken to knows where these people are, it is very worrying."
Dr Lane also spoke about the Israeli attack and hijacking of his ship, and his time is captivity. He said: "When they boarded our boat, we resisted entirely peacefully. I sat on the floor and tried to reason with them, but the Israeli commandos physically attacked us. Fiachra was dragged around the ground and I had a gun pointed in my face by a screaming commando. His mania was so intense that I genuinely feared for my life. Others received beatings."
"When they finally took over our ship, and forced us to dock in Ashdod, we refused to disembark. We sat down, linked arms and said that we had been illegally kidnapped and brought against our will to Israel. We were all forcibly removed from the boat and brought to interrogation rooms in the port. At this point, I refused to hand over my passport, restating my position that I would not cooperate with my illegal detention and was under no obligation to do so. I was then physically assaulted, my arms were painfully twisted behind my back for prolonged periods and my passport taken."
"We were then transferred to the prison in Be'er Shevva – though were told we were in Tel Aviv by our captors – and held incommunicado until it was announced that we were all to be deported. It was only at that time that we finally met with the Irish Ambassador."
"In prison I was told about events on the Mavi Marmara, people being shot, left to bleed to death, beaten and bitten by dogs. By all accounts it sounded like it was hell on that boat."
Dr Lane will arrive back in Ireland tomorrow afternoon – he will be on a plane from Istanbul that leaves at 10.45am (local time) and is scheduled to arrived in Dublin at 1.20pm. When he arrives back in Ireland, there will be a welcoming committee at the airport, and Dr Lane will address a press conference in the City Centre later tomorrow. Full details of this welcoming committee and press conference will be circulated in a further press release
Dr Fintan Lane? Is that the same Fintan Lane who was involved in the IRSP way back when?
There will probably be more than 9 dead. A great week for Israeli PR.
QuoteIsrael delivers message to Rachel Corrie
Israel earlier proposed that the ship sail to the port of Ashdod, where it would 'ensure that no weapons and or war material were on board.'
Israel's Foreign Ministry Director General Yossi Gal said this 'clear message' had been delivered to the MV Rachel Corrie.
'If the ship decides to sail to the port of Ashdod in Israel then we will ensure its safe arrival and will not board it,' he said.
Pass on our best wishes if you are in contact with the Ship John. Let them know they have a lot of people thinking about them and Praying for them.
Rachel Corrie now 3 hours from Gaza
They are all sitting together, and everyone is calm and in good sprirts.
In light of events this week, I would say that it will be ok.
Israel tried to broker a deal with Ireland and get them to sail into Asdod port with an escort.
The crew told them no thanks, we are sailing to Gaza......
Listening to the Bill Maher show. He is an Israeli apologist Mr know it all himself. Fair play to two of the guests for giving Israel a good wrap. Maher kept changing direction when great arguments were presented. He really is anti Muslim.
Pray the Irish ship makes it to under siege Gaza. Thanks John for updates.
Just heard Israeli navy ship approaching the Rachel Corrie they have jammed their communication system.
http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/Gaza_TVNews/2010/06/05/Gaza-TVs-phlog-Rachel-Corrie-Ship-Now-Boarded-And-Under?displayMode=website
f**k Israel!!
Lets just hope for their safe return.
I think Robert Fisk got it right. Where politicians are too cowardly to act, activists take over. Politicians have once again and its getting all too common have failed the people they serve. :(
f**k them.
Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.
Folks, sorry about the earlier info.
That was the latest as I heard it, and folowing that, I fell asleep at my desk, and just woke up to find out that the ship is still sailing towards Gaza..........
They have rejected 4 calls to sail to Ashdod, and the IOF are now threatening to board.
Will keep you posted as I get more news.
PS I am speaking at a rally and demo at City Hall, Belfast today at 4pm.
If anyone is around, please come along.
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 09:28:07 AM
Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.
Yeah, it is pathetic to think that people would dare to help 1.7 million people who are suffering a slow Genocide.
They should know better.....
If you are that concerned for Sudan, and North Korea, why don't you do something?
I would support you if you were to do something other than talk about it......................
Rachel Corrie has been arrested by Israeli Navy, and is been towed to Asgdod Port as I type.
http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/Gaza_TVNews/2010/06/05/Gaza-TV-News-RACHEL-CORRIE-HAS-ARRESTED-BY-ISRAELI-NAVY?displayMode=website
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 09:34:08 AM
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 09:28:07 AM
Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.
Yeah, it is pathetic to think that people would dare to help 1.7 million people who are suffering a slow Genocide.
They should know better.....
If you are that concerned for Sudan, and North Korea, why don't you do something?
I would support you if you were to do something other than talk about it......................
So the population of Gaza is 1.7 million ?
Can you back up your claims of a genocide actually taking place ?
I send my few bob on to Concern every month plus let them claim tax back on it and leave it to them.
Incidentally, how would you propose Israel defend itself against Hamas ?
I hope they're safe. Sad news that Palestinians in need will suffer futher without this much needed aid.
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 09:28:07 AM
Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.
This sort of whataboutry is all too common in Ireland. Shame.
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 09:28:07 AM
Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.
Are you on the wind up? Undisputed shortages indeed in all of those countries and the western world perhaps could and certainly should do more about it.
I don't think people will argue that the flotilla organisers were looking for publicity - indeed it was a requisite in order to put pressure on Israel to end the blockade. The amount of aid by itself was a drop in the ocean compared to what is needed but it is the symbolic act of breaking the blockade which was important. I seriously doubt that anyone organising this thought that at least nine people would be shot dead, at worst they probably expected illegal detention and being roughed up. If they had just gone to the port and collaborated in the blockade then this would have been the ultimate sign of surrender and impotence against a government which has reintroduced the ugly spectre of apartheid to this world.
Far from pathetic, these people stood up for what they believe in and some of them were unfortunate enough to pay the ultimate price for their beliefs. These people deserve the ultimate respect - Israel has made martyrs of them.
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 10:14:30 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 09:34:08 AM
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 09:28:07 AM
Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.
Yeah, it is pathetic to think that people would dare to help 1.7 million people who are suffering a slow Genocide.
They should know better.....
If you are that concerned for Sudan, and North Korea, why don't you do something?
I would support you if you were to do something other than talk about it......................
So the population of Gaza is 1.7 million ?
Can you back up your claims of a genocide actually taking place ?
I send my few bob on to Concern every month plus let them claim tax back on it and leave it to them.
Incidentally, how would you propose Israel defend itself against Hamas ?
Aren't you a great lad sending your few bob to concern. I have a big gold star sticker here for you.
You are so ill informed it is scary. Even worse, obviously knowing nothing of the history of the middle east you still feel that you can come on here and write shite about it. Perhaps you are Ian O Doherty?
ISrael defend itself against Hamas. Let me give you a simple analogy (your a simple sort of guy I'd say). Israel was planted in this region and all those who happened to have left their homes on a certain night found that they could never go home again. Some that did find a way back found Israelis living in their homes. Naturally there was resistance to this - labelled terrorism by Israel and her friends. That wasn't enough for Israel who went on to steal land from others and plant their people there. We had a similar ethic cleansing in Ireland called the plantations - you may have heard about it. Israel is armed to the teeth and has nuclear bombs. Israel continues to steal palestinian land and any token resistance is met with shite about "we must defend ourselves". Israel is the aggressor here, it is simple to see. Unless of course you are stupid enough to swallow the Israel military and government press releases which are spin and lies 99% of the time. If you are that stupid then there is no point me trying to inform you.
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 10:14:30 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 09:34:08 AM
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 09:28:07 AM
Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.
Yeah, it is pathetic to think that people would dare to help 1.7 million people who are suffering a slow Genocide.
They should know better.....
If you are that concerned for Sudan, and North Korea, why don't you do something?
I would support you if you were to do something other than talk about it......................
So the population of Gaza is 1.7 million ?
Can you back up your claims of a genocide actually taking place ?
I send my few bob on to Concern every month plus let them claim tax back on it and leave it to them.
Incidentally, how would you propose Israel defend itself against Hamas ?
and you slag off those who put themselves in danger (and who die) trying to bring aid to people.
You're great.
Israel is he US. Any futher blood will be on Obama's hands.
Rachel Corrie is to dock shortly in Ashdod, after been denied entry into Gaza by the IOF.
Ireland, I guess it's time to back up your fighting talk...............................
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 12:06:12 PM
Rachel Corrie is to dock shortly in Ashdod, after been denied entry into Gaza by the IOF.
Ireland, I guess it's time to back up your fighting talk...............................
A stern talking to I should expect.
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 12:06:12 PM
Rachel Corrie is to dock shortly in Ashdod, after been denied entry into Gaza by the IOF.
Ireland, I guess it's time to back up your fighting talk...............................
Ireland will do next to nothing about this, our politicians will take it up the arse just like they do when the brits come a knocking.
When your politicians are worse than the drug dealers that infest your streets the people are fecked and that is the case in ireland, i have zero confidence that they will do much of anything about this situation and the fact thats Israel fecked about with Irish passports
Stew, last year I was at a wedding in Athlone.
I was sitting at a table with a prominent TD.
I asked him to give me one good reason why the Irish Govt. allowed US war planes to land in Ireland.
His answer was "Well, we have to protect US investment in Ireland"..................
That summed it all up for me.
The price of a job now is to have a role to play in the illegal wars, and do as Uncle Sam tells them.
That is why they will do feck all over this, and say strong words, with no bite.
We will await and see their next move.
Quote from: stew on June 05, 2010, 01:13:16 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 12:06:12 PM
Rachel Corrie is to dock shortly in Ashdod, after been denied entry into Gaza by the IOF.
Ireland, I guess it's time to back up your fighting talk...............................
Ireland will do next to nothing about this, our politicians will take it up the arse just like they do when the brits come a knocking.
When your politicians are worse than the drug dealers that infest your streets the people are fecked and that is the case in ireland, i have zero confidence that they will do much of anything about this situation and the fact thats Israel fecked about with Irish passports
What would you have Ireland do? Declare war on Israel? Send in the Irish navy (both boats, mind, no holding back)?
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2010, 02:12:03 PM
Quote from: stew on June 05, 2010, 01:13:16 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 12:06:12 PM
Rachel Corrie is to dock shortly in Ashdod, after been denied entry into Gaza by the IOF.
Ireland, I guess it's time to back up your fighting talk...............................
Ireland will do next to nothing about this, our politicians will take it up the arse just like they do when the brits come a knocking.
When your politicians are worse than the drug dealers that infest your streets the people are fecked and that is the case in ireland, i have zero confidence that they will do much of anything about this situation and the fact thats Israel fecked about with Irish passports
What would you have Ireland do? Declare war on Israel? Send in the Irish navy (both boats, mind, no holding back)?
Yes.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2010, 02:12:03 PM
Quote from: stew on June 05, 2010, 01:13:16 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 12:06:12 PM
Rachel Corrie is to dock shortly in Ashdod, after been denied entry into Gaza by the IOF.
Ireland, I guess it's time to back up your fighting talk...............................
Ireland will do next to nothing about this, our politicians will take it up the arse just like they do when the brits come a knocking.
When your politicians are worse than the drug dealers that infest your streets the people are fecked and that is the case in ireland, i have zero confidence that they will do much of anything about this situation and the fact thats Israel fecked about with Irish passports
What would you have Ireland do? Declare war on Israel? Send in the Irish navy (both boats, mind, no holding back)?
Its obvious there are only two options here:
1. Nothing
2. A declaration of war.
::)
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2010, 02:12:03 PM
Quote from: stew on June 05, 2010, 01:13:16 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 12:06:12 PM
Rachel Corrie is to dock shortly in Ashdod, after been denied entry into Gaza by the IOF.
Ireland, I guess it's time to back up your fighting talk...............................
Ireland will do next to nothing about this, our politicians will take it up the arse just like they do when the brits come a knocking.
When your politicians are worse than the drug dealers that infest your streets the people are fecked and that is the case in ireland, i have zero confidence that they will do much of anything about this situation and the fact thats Israel fecked about with Irish passports
What would you have Ireland do? Declare war on Israel? Send in the Irish navy (both boats, mind, no holding back)?
and yet another stupid comment, you're on fire today
Quote from: pintsofguinness on June 05, 2010, 02:29:37 PM
and yet another stupid comment, you're on fire today
A war might give the country a bit of a lift?
We would have to get our hands on some nukes which would be pretty cool.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 05, 2010, 02:33:35 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on June 05, 2010, 02:29:37 PM
and yet another stupid comment, you're on fire today
A war might give the country a bit of a lift?
We would have to get our hands on some nukes which would be pretty cool.
True, I've a boat at home, we could join in in the attack.
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on June 05, 2010, 02:22:04 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2010, 02:12:03 PM
Quote from: stew on June 05, 2010, 01:13:16 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 12:06:12 PM
Rachel Corrie is to dock shortly in Ashdod, after been denied entry into Gaza by the IOF.
Ireland, I guess it's time to back up your fighting talk...............................
Ireland will do next to nothing about this, our politicians will take it up the arse just like they do when the brits come a knocking.
When your politicians are worse than the drug dealers that infest your streets the people are fecked and that is the case in ireland, i have zero confidence that they will do much of anything about this situation and the fact thats Israel fecked about with Irish passports
What would you have Ireland do? Declare war on Israel? Send in the Irish navy (both boats, mind, no holding back)?
Its obvious there are only two options here:
1. Nothing
2. A declaration of war.
::)
What other options are there? I don't mean token gestures that'll make a few people feel better about themselves. I mean real options that would hurt Israel without at the same time hurting Ireland even more.
Take your time.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2010, 03:13:48 PM
What other options are there? I don't mean token gestures that'll make a few people feel better about themselves. I mean real options that would hurt Israel without at the same time hurting Ireland even more.
Take your time.
Petition the EU to sanction Israel.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 05, 2010, 03:38:03 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2010, 03:13:48 PM
What other options are there? I don't mean token gestures that'll make a few people feel better about themselves. I mean real options that would hurt Israel without at the same time hurting Ireland even more.
Take your time.
Petition the EU to sanction Israel.
Ouch. ::)
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2010, 03:53:33 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 05, 2010, 03:38:03 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2010, 03:13:48 PM
What other options are there? I don't mean token gestures that'll make a few people feel better about themselves. I mean real options that would hurt Israel without at the same time hurting Ireland even more.
Take your time.
Petition the EU to sanction Israel.
Ouch. ::)
War it is so.
If the member statres (of which Ireland is at the heart of :D ) sanction Israel instead of buying guns of them to fund their army it would stop.
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 09:31:33 AM
PS I am speaking at a rally and demo at City Hall, Belfast today at 4pm.
If anyone is around, please come along.
Called down, good turnout, fair play John
Quote from: Zapatista on June 05, 2010, 03:38:03 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2010, 03:13:48 PM
What other options are there? I don't mean token gestures that'll make a few people feel better about themselves. I mean real options that would hurt Israel without at the same time hurting Ireland even more.
Take your time.
Petition the EU to sanction Israel.
Kick their diplomats out of Ireland for starters, sever all ties with them until they allow much needed aid to reach the people in Gaza.
petition the worlds leaders and try and get hard, biting sanctions in place and tell the yanks that not one plane of theirs will land in Ireland unless they hold the fcukers accountable, thats what they could do.
Any more stupid question Myles?????
Quote from: stew on June 05, 2010, 08:38:37 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 05, 2010, 03:38:03 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2010, 03:13:48 PM
What other options are there? I don't mean token gestures that'll make a few people feel better about themselves. I mean real options that would hurt Israel without at the same time hurting Ireland even more.
Take your time.
Petition the EU to sanction Israel.
Kick their diplomats out of Ireland for starters, sever all ties with them until they allow much needed aid to reach the people in Gaza.
petition the worlds leaders and try and get hard, biting sanctions in place and tell the yanks that not one plane of theirs will land in Ireland unless they hold the fcukers accountable, thats what they could do.
Any more stupid question Myles?????
A. Would cause the Isreali's no loss of sleep at all. A noble action but hardly a deterent.
B. Punish the yanks for Isreali actions. Not a popular move with a nation that holds the key to our financial stability.
Quote from: stew on June 05, 2010, 08:38:37 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 05, 2010, 03:38:03 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2010, 03:13:48 PM
What other options are there? I don't mean token gestures that'll make a few people feel better about themselves. I mean real options that would hurt Israel without at the same time hurting Ireland even more.
Take your time.
Petition the EU to sanction Israel.
Kick their diplomats out of Ireland for starters, sever all ties with them until they allow much needed aid to reach the people in Gaza.
petition the worlds leaders and try and get hard, biting sanctions in place and tell the yanks that not one plane of theirs will land in Ireland unless they hold the fcukers accountable, thats what they could do.
Any more stupid question Myles?????
So, like I said, nothing that will hurt Israel or which won't hurt Ireland even more.
Any more stupid suggestions?
By DAVID T. DUMKE
Israeli arrogance at its best
'To a man with a big hammer, every problem looks like a nail'
It is hard not to conclude from this Israeli action, and also from other Israeli actions in recent years, that the Israeli leadership simply does not care any longer about what anybody thinks. It does not seem to care about what even the United States — its only real friend, even in the choppy era of Obama — thinks," Leon Wieseltier, The New Republic.
The quote above captures the essence of the latest in a long series of tragic events which have marked the endless Arab-Israeli conflict. As an American who has tracked regional issues closely over the past two decades, from inside and outside government, it is hard to foresee a promising path forward — or merely find a silver lining.
The elements of peace all remain on table. All parties know what the outcome of a peace process would be: a two-state solution, a return of the Golan Heights, and full diplomatic relations between the Arab world and Israel. Moreover, after an 8-year hiatus, the United States has a president committed to the peace process, sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, and mindful of Israel's security concerns.
Yet sadly, at a time when all parties suffer from exhaustion, are losing — economically, politically, or spiritually — ground, and should recognize the golden opportunity before them, we face a new round of self-inflicted setbacks which makes peace increasingly illusive.
To be certain, there is plenty of blame to go around. No party has acted in to its fullest in the interests of peace. Pettiness, recrimination, and domestic politics have surely played a negative role in the calculations of each party in contributing to today's acrimonious climate.
Yet Israel's actions this week set a standard for audaciousness. While the international community has long since concluded the humanitarian situation in Gaza is unacceptable, one can certainly debate the merits of the Gaza blockade — and the invasion which preceded it — on political grounds. But acting well outside the bounds of international norms, if not laws, as Israel has done since the Netanyahu government gained power, is a truly troubling development.
On its face, the attack on the flotilla seems illegal because Israel conducted it in international waters. This does not include additional considerations, like proportionality, the likely international reaction, and observing diplomatic tact as it relates to key partners such as Turkey, Egypt, and the United States.
The flotilla itself was obviously threatening to the Israeli government. It presented a complex political problem — the effectiveness of the blockade, the use of nonviolent resistance, and the increasing visibility of international activists to highlight Palestinian suffering.
But responding to the threat — deploying elite military forces to blunt what was, without questioning the motives of the flotilla, essentially a humanitarian mission — with blunt force only highlights Israeli weakness. Israel seems to have no solution except force. Or, as noted by prominent Israeli writer Amos Oz, "to a man with a big hammer, says the proverb, every problem looks like a nail."
Could Israel have failed to calculate the likely reaction of Turkey? Even without violence, storming Turkish-flagged ships in international water would surely sour relations. While relations with Ankara have steadily been souring of late, did Israel not consider, or care, that this act would further alienate the one Muslim nation which could be considered an ally? The lack of care seems particularly troubling to a nation which is increasingly isolated.
Of course, the incident also has implications on Egypt, the most populous Arab nation and the first to reach a peace agreement with Israel. Egypt's decision to seal the Gaza border already came at a price to Cairo — it remains a deeply unpopular decision within the Arab world and among the Egyptian public, and emboldens critics —Islamist and secular alike — of the Mubarak government.
Coming at a time when the US is already pressing Cairo to democratize, it would seem the most popular critique of the government in this, an election year, would be to attack Mubarak's pro-peace policy — which includes respecting the Gaza blockade until a Hamas-Fatah reconciliation process can be completed.
Israel would also have been wise to note the recent rise in Turkey's regional popularity. Much of this is attributable to its increasing diplomatic activism, most notably its hostility, despite friendly relations, to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.
And then there is the United States. In recent months, Israelis have observed with growing alarm the apparent deterioration of relations between the Obama administration and Israeli government — highlighted with the embarrassment of Vice President Joseph Biden who was welcomed to Israel with the announcement of new, sensitive settlement construction in Jerusalem. At the time of the incident, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was en route to what was seen as a high stakes, fence-mending visit to President Obama.
Obama is supportive of Israel, yet has made it clear he values America's relations with the entirety of the Arab world and is concerned about the US regional position as it wages war in Iraq, Afghanistan, and on "terror." Obama's support of regional nonproliferation is aimed at Iran, yet he has recognized too that Israel must enter the NPT agreement in order to best isolate Tehran. On the peace process, he is growing increasingly impatient over what some of his advisors believe is Israeli provocation — supported by Netanyahu.
Lastly, did Israel consider the international consequences of the raid — which were easily foreseeable? Clearly, Israel has concluded that the international community is against it and thus has opted — as it did in Gaza, with the Goldstone report, and in the Dubai assassination of a Hamas operative — to ignore the established rules.
Again, in assessing the Arab-Israeli conflict no party is blameless. But when Israel opts out of international norms, ignores its most important partners, and chooses force to meet any threat — violent or nonviolent — it seems the peace process has become much more problematic.
By URI AVNERY | ARAB NEWS
Kill a Turk and rest
ON the high seas, outside territorial waters, the ship was stopped by the navy. The commandos stormed it. Hundreds of people on the deck resisted, the soldiers used force. Some of the passengers were killed, scores injured. The ship was brought into harbor, the passengers were taken off by force. The world saw them walking on the quay, men and women, young and old, all of them worn out, one after another, each being marched between two soldiers...
The ship was called "Exodus 1947." It left France in the hope of breaking the British blockade, which was imposed to prevent ships loaded with Holocaust survivors from reaching the shores of Palestine. If it had been allowed to reach the country, the illegal immigrants would have come ashore and the British would have sent them to detention camps in Cyprus, as they had done before. Nobody would have taken any notice of the episode for more than two days.
But the person in charge was Ernest Bevin, a Labour Party leader, an arrogant, rude and power-loving British minister. He was not about to let a bunch of Jews dictate to him. He decided to teach them a lesson the entire world would witness. "This is a provocation!" he exclaimed, and of course he was right. The main aim was indeed to create a provocation, in order to draw the eyes of the world to the British blockade.
What followed is well known: the episode dragged on and on, one stupidity led to another, the whole world sympathized with the passengers. But the British did not give in and paid the price. A heavy price.
Many believe that the "Exodus" incident was the turning point in the struggle for the creation of the State of Israel. Britain collapsed under the weight of international condemnation and decided to give up its mandate over Palestine. There were, of course, many more weighty reasons for this decision, but the "Exodus" proved to be the straw that broke the camel's back.
I AM not the only one who was reminded of this episode this week. Actually, it was almost impossible not to be reminded of it, especially for those of us who lived in Palestine at the time and witnessed it.
There are, of course, important differences. Then the passengers were Holocaust survivors, this time they were peace activists from all over the world. But then and now the world saw heavily armed soldiers brutally attack unarmed passengers, who resist with everything that comes to hand, sticks and bare hands. Then and now it happened on the high seas — 40 km from the shore then, 65 km now.
In retrospect, the British behavior throughout the affair seems incredibly stupid. But Bevin was no fool, and the British officers who commanded the action were not nincompoops. After all, they had just finished a World War II on the winning side.
If they behaved with complete folly from beginning to end, it was the result of arrogance, insensitivity and boundless contempt for world public opinion.
Ehud Barak is the Israeli Bevin. He is not a fool, either, nor are our top brass. But they are responsible for a chain of acts of folly, the disastrous implications of which are hard to assess. Former minister and present commentator Yossi Sarid called the ministerial "committee of seven," which decides on security matters, "seven idiots" — and I must protest. It is an insult to idiots.
The preparations for the flotilla went on for more than a year. Hundreds of e-mail messages went back and forth. I myself received many dozens. There was no secret. Everything was out in the open.
There was a lot of time for all our political and military institutions to prepare for the approach of the ships. The politician consulted. The soldiers trained. The diplomats reported. The intelligence people did their job.
Nothing helped. All the decisions were wrong from the first moment to this moment. And it's not yet the end.
The idea of a flotilla as a means to break the blockade borders on genius. It placed the Israeli government on the horns of a dilemma — the choice between several alternatives, all of them bad. Every general hopes to get his opponent into such a situation.
The alternatives were:
1. To let the flotilla reach Gaza without hindrance. The Cabinet secretary supported this option. That would have led to the end of the blockade, because after this flotilla more and larger ones would have come.
2. To stop the ships in territorial waters, inspect their cargo and make sure they were not carrying weapons or "terrorists," then let them continue on their way. That would have aroused some vague protests in the world but upheld the principle of a blockade.
3. To capture them on the high seas and bring them to Ashdod, risking a face-to-face battle with activists on board.
As our governments have always done, when faced with the choice between several bad alternatives, the Netanyahu government chose the worst.
Anyone who followed the preparations as reported in the media could have foreseen that they would lead to people being killed and injured. One does not storm a Turkish ship and expect cute little girls to present one with flowers. The Turks are not known as people who give in easily.
The orders given to the forces and made public included the three fateful words: "at any cost." Every soldier knows what these three terrible words mean. Moreover, on the list of objectives, the consideration for the passengers appeared only in third place, after safeguarding the safety of the soldiers and fulfilling the task.
If Benjamin Netanyahu, Ehud Barak, the Chief of Staff and the commander of the navy did not understand that this would lead to killing and wounding people, then it must be concluded — even by those who were reluctant to consider this until now — that they are grossly incompetent. They must be told, in the immortal words of Oliver Cromwell to Parliament: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"
This event points again to one of the most serious aspects of the situation: we live in a bubble, in a kind of mental ghetto, which cuts us off and prevents us from seeing another reality, the one perceived by the rest of the world. A psychiatrist might judge this to be the symptom of a severe mental problem.
The propaganda of the government and the army tells a simple story: our heroic soldiers, determined and sensitive, the elite of the elite, descended on the ship in order "to talk" and were attacked by a wild and violent crowd. Official spokesmen repeated again and again the word "lynching."
On the first day, almost all the Israeli media accepted this. After all, it is clear that we, the Jews, are the victims. Always. That applies to Jewish soldiers, too. True, we storm a foreign ship at sea, but turn at once into victims who have no choice but to defend ourselves against violent and incited anti-Semites.
It is impossible not to be reminded of the classic Jewish joke about the Jewish mother in Russia taking leave of her son, who has been called up to serve the Czar in the war against Turkey. "Don't overexert yourself'" she implores him, "Kill a Turk and rest. Kill another Turk and rest again..."
"But mother," the son interrupts, "What if the Turk kills me?"
"You?" exclaims the mother, "But why? What have you done to him?"
To any normal person, this may sound crazy. Heavily armed soldiers of an elite commando unit board a ship on the high seas in the middle of the night, from the sea and from the air — and they are the victims?
But there is a grain of truth there: they are the victims of arrogant and incompetent commanders, irresponsible politicians and the media fed by them. And, actually, of the Israeli public, since most of the people voted for this government or for the opposition, which is no different.
The "Exodus" affair was repeated, but with a switch of roles. Now we are the British.
Somewhere, a new Leon Uris is planning to write his next book, "Exodus 2010." A new Otto Preminger is planning a film that will become a blockbuster. A new Paul Newman will star in it — after all, there is no shortage of talented Turkish actors.
More than years ago, Thomas Jefferson declared that every nation must act with a "decent respect to the opinions of mankind." Israeli leaders have never accepted the wisdom of this maxim. They adhere to the dictum of David Ben-Gurion: "It is not important what the Gentiles say, it is important what the Jews do." Perhaps he assumed that the Jews would not act foolishly.
Making enemies of the Turks is more than foolish. For decades, Turkey has been our closest ally in the region, much more close than is generally known. Turkey could play, in the future, an important role as a mediator between Israel and the Arab-Muslim world, between Israel and Syria, and, yes, even between Israel and Iran. Perhaps we have succeeded now in uniting the Turkish people against us — and some say that this is the only matter on which the Turks are now united.
This is chapter 2 of "Cast Lead." Then we aroused most countries in the world against us, shocked our few friends and gladdened our enemies. Now we have done it again, and perhaps with even greater success. World public opinion is turning against us.
This is a slow process. It resembles the accumulation of water behind a dam. The water rises slowly, quietly, and the change is hardly noticeable. But when it reaches a critical level, the dam bursts and the disaster is upon us. We are steadily approaching this point.
"Kill a Turk and rest," the mother says in the joke. Our government does not even rest. It seems that they will not stop until they have made enemies of the last of our friends.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 06, 2010, 07:36:44 AM
Quote from: stew on June 05, 2010, 08:38:37 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 05, 2010, 03:38:03 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 05, 2010, 03:13:48 PM
What other options are there? I don't mean token gestures that'll make a few people feel better about themselves. I mean real options that would hurt Israel without at the same time hurting Ireland even more.
Take your time.
Petition the EU to sanction Israel.
Kick their diplomats out of Ireland for starters, sever all ties with them until they allow much needed aid to reach the people in Gaza.
petition the worlds leaders and try and get hard, biting sanctions in place and tell the yanks that not one plane of theirs will land in Ireland unless they hold the fcukers accountable, thats what they could do.
Any more stupid question Myles?????
So, like I said, nothing that will hurt Israel or which won't hurt Ireland even more.
Any more stupid suggestions?
Those were some nice constraints you put on there Myles as to what you consider "real options" for Ireland as an alternative to your fatuous suggestion of declaring war on Israel.
The fact is there is nothing Ireland can do which will directly hurt Israel. If Israel doesn't give a toss about angering Turkey there is not much Ireland can do that would concern them. However that does not mean that Ireland should do nothing and that there are no "real options".
Kicking out their diplomats and severing all ties as Stew suggested would be a good start. Sure Israel won't give a toss but it will turn up the pressure on them internationally if someone stood up and said we're not happy with what you are doing so get the f**k out of our country. As I understand it Israel wants to have a favourable relationship with the EU. It wouldn't look too good if it had no diplomatic relations with one of the member states.
Or Ireland could just continue to eat shit and say nothing as an aggressive nation forges its passports and hijacks its ships etc. etc.
Severing diplomatic ties would do little other than to inconvenience Irish tourists and business people travelling in the region. Israel doesn't give a flying fcuk about EU opinion - they also forged the passports of bigger EU nations than Ireland without caring too much for the consequences. Some of those detained on the flotilla were British, German, French and Swedish - all bigger players on the world stage than Ireland.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 05, 2010, 11:07:29 AM
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 10:14:30 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 09:34:08 AM
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 09:28:07 AM
Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.
Yeah, it is pathetic to think that people would dare to help 1.7 million people who are suffering a slow Genocide.
They should know better.....
If you are that concerned for Sudan, and North Korea, why don't you do something?
I would support you if you were to do something other than talk about it......................
So the population of Gaza is 1.7 million ?
Can you back up your claims of a genocide actually taking place ?
I send my few bob on to Concern every month plus let them claim tax back on it and leave it to them.
Incidentally, how would you propose Israel defend itself against Hamas ?
Aren't you a great lad sending your few bob to concern. I have a big gold star sticker here for you.
You are so ill informed it is scary. Even worse, obviously knowing nothing of the history of the middle east you still feel that you can come on here and write shite about it. Perhaps you are Ian O Doherty?
ISrael defend itself against Hamas. Let me give you a simple analogy (your a simple sort of guy I'd say). Israel was planted in this region and all those who happened to have left their homes on a certain night found that they could never go home again. Some that did find a way back found Israelis living in their homes. Naturally there was resistance to this - labelled terrorism by Israel and her friends. That wasn't enough for Israel who went on to steal land from others and plant their people there. We had a similar ethic cleansing in Ireland called the plantations - you may have heard about it. Israel is armed to the teeth and has nuclear bombs. Israel continues to steal palestinian land and any token resistance is met with shite about "we must defend ourselves". Israel is the aggressor here, it is simple to see. Unless of course you are stupid enough to swallow the Israel military and government press releases which are spin and lies 99% of the time. If you are that stupid then there is no point me trying to inform you.
Ah FFS, will you get off your high horse and don't be such a plank.
Can you address the question - how would you propose Israel defend itself in the region when you have Hamas who does not even recognise the right of the Israeli state to exist ?
And "give her dixie" ...... have you any facts to back up your claims of genocide ?
See The Pixies have cancelled a gig in Tel Aviv next week in protest at the apartheid regime's murder tactics ... more of the same needed
Quote from: red hander on June 06, 2010, 08:33:29 PM
See The Pixies have cancelled a gig in Tel Aviv next week in protest at the apartheid regime's murder tactics ... more of the same needed
I thought the idea was to punish them, not reward them.
Quote from: blast05 on June 06, 2010, 08:20:02 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 05, 2010, 11:07:29 AM
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 10:14:30 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 09:34:08 AM
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 09:28:07 AM
Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.
Yeah, it is pathetic to think that people would dare to help 1.7 million people who are suffering a slow Genocide.
They should know better.....
If you are that concerned for Sudan, and North Korea, why don't you do something?
I would support you if you were to do something other than talk about it......................
So the population of Gaza is 1.7 million ?
Can you back up your claims of a genocide actually taking place ?
I send my few bob on to Concern every month plus let them claim tax back on it and leave it to them.
Incidentally, how would you propose Israel defend itself against Hamas ?
Aren't you a great lad sending your few bob to concern. I have a big gold star sticker here for you.
You are so ill informed it is scary. Even worse, obviously knowing nothing of the history of the middle east you still feel that you can come on here and write shite about it. Perhaps you are Ian O Doherty?
ISrael defend itself against Hamas. Let me give you a simple analogy (your a simple sort of guy I'd say). Israel was planted in this region and all those who happened to have left their homes on a certain night found that they could never go home again. Some that did find a way back found Israelis living in their homes. Naturally there was resistance to this - labelled terrorism by Israel and her friends. That wasn't enough for Israel who went on to steal land from others and plant their people there. We had a similar ethic cleansing in Ireland called the plantations - you may have heard about it. Israel is armed to the teeth and has nuclear bombs. Israel continues to steal palestinian land and any token resistance is met with shite about "we must defend ourselves". Israel is the aggressor here, it is simple to see. Unless of course you are stupid enough to swallow the Israel military and government press releases which are spin and lies 99% of the time. If you are that stupid then there is no point me trying to inform you.
Ah FFS, will you get off your high horse and don't be such a plank.
Can you address the question - how would you propose Israel defend itself in the region when you have Hamas who does not even recognise the right of the Israeli state to exist ?
And "give her dixie" ...... have you any facts to back up your claims of genocide ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.[1]
While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
As you can see, under this defination, what is happening in Gaza would constitute Genocide.
Starving 1.7 million people, forcing them off their land, bombing and killing thme on a regular basis, etc,etc.
If you require any futher examples, have a read through some of my stories from Gaza, or read just about any human rights groups reports and findings.
Hope that clears that up for you
We could do without Sean Brady calling on Israel to lift the blockade. The man is totally tainted and in cuckoo land.
Quote from: blast05 on June 06, 2010, 08:20:02 PM
Ah FFS, will you get off your high horse and don't be such a plank.
Can you address the question - how would you propose Israel defend itself in the region when you have Hamas who does not even recognise the right of the Israeli state to exist ?
It's quite easy to defend yourself against Hamas' belief that Israel don't have the right to exist. You get reconition from Countries across the world and exist. Something that Israel have done and continue to do. Much like Northern Ireland exists despite the many who believe it has no right to exist.
Quote from: blast05 on June 06, 2010, 08:20:02 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 05, 2010, 11:07:29 AM
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 10:14:30 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 09:34:08 AM
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 09:28:07 AM
Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.
Yeah, it is pathetic to think that people would dare to help 1.7 million people who are suffering a slow Genocide.
They should know better.....
If you are that concerned for Sudan, and North Korea, why don't you do something?
I would support you if you were to do something other than talk about it......................
So the population of Gaza is 1.7 million ?
Can you back up your claims of a genocide actually taking place ?
I send my few bob on to Concern every month plus let them claim tax back on it and leave it to them.
Incidentally, how would you propose Israel defend itself against Hamas ?
Aren't you a great lad sending your few bob to concern. I have a big gold star sticker here for you.
You are so ill informed it is scary. Even worse, obviously knowing nothing of the history of the middle east you still feel that you can come on here and write shite about it. Perhaps you are Ian O Doherty?
ISrael defend itself against Hamas. Let me give you a simple analogy (your a simple sort of guy I'd say). Israel was planted in this region and all those who happened to have left their homes on a certain night found that they could never go home again. Some that did find a way back found Israelis living in their homes. Naturally there was resistance to this - labelled terrorism by Israel and her friends. That wasn't enough for Israel who went on to steal land from others and plant their people there. We had a similar ethic cleansing in Ireland called the plantations - you may have heard about it. Israel is armed to the teeth and has nuclear bombs. Israel continues to steal palestinian land and any token resistance is met with shite about "we must defend ourselves". Israel is the aggressor here, it is simple to see. Unless of course you are stupid enough to swallow the Israel military and government press releases which are spin and lies 99% of the time. If you are that stupid then there is no point me trying to inform you.
Ah FFS, will you get off your high horse and don't be such a plank.
Can you address the question - how would you propose Israel defend itself in the region when you have Hamas who does not even recognise the right of the Israeli state to exist ?
And "give her dixie" ...... have you any facts to back up your claims of genocide ?
I'm on a high horse because I bothered to understand the situation instead of believing what Fox and sky news tell me? I suppose I should be like you and just accept the lazy journalism that comes my way. My answer to your original question still stands but maybe you couldn't understand. The question is how do Palestinians in Gaza protect themselves from the Israeli army armed with the most powerful weapons in the world and them not even with a bag of cement? Ask the international community for help - tried that, waste of time. Negotiate with Israel - check back through all the agreements brokered and the breaking of them by Israel. Fire some token missiles - maybe not but what else can they do.
The should do what the Israeli's have been looking them to do for 62 years now.....
Pack up their stuff, hand over their houses and land, and join the millions of other
Palestinian refugee's worldwide.
Only then will the genocide stop......................
Well we could start by kicking out the Israeli ambassador and then boycott Israeli products in our shops and supermarkets.
Small gesture but would be reported around the world and may encourage other nations to follow suit, from small acorns grow big oak trees.
I for one have stopped buying Israeli produce.
Quote from: give her dixie on June 07, 2010, 12:00:10 AM
Quote from: blast05 on June 06, 2010, 08:20:02 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 05, 2010, 11:07:29 AM
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 10:14:30 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 05, 2010, 09:34:08 AM
Quote from: blast05 on June 05, 2010, 09:28:07 AM
Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.
Yeah, it is pathetic to think that people would dare to help 1.7 million people who are suffering a slow Genocide.
They should know better.....
If you are that concerned for Sudan, and North Korea, why don't you do something?
I would support you if you were to do something other than talk about it......................
So the population of Gaza is 1.7 million ?
Can you back up your claims of a genocide actually taking place ?
I send my few bob on to Concern every month plus let them claim tax back on it and leave it to them.
Incidentally, how would you propose Israel defend itself against Hamas ?
Aren't you a great lad sending your few bob to concern. I have a big gold star sticker here for you.
You are so ill informed it is scary. Even worse, obviously knowing nothing of the history of the middle east you still feel that you can come on here and write shite about it. Perhaps you are Ian O Doherty?
ISrael defend itself against Hamas. Let me give you a simple analogy (your a simple sort of guy I'd say). Israel was planted in this region and all those who happened to have left their homes on a certain night found that they could never go home again. Some that did find a way back found Israelis living in their homes. Naturally there was resistance to this - labelled terrorism by Israel and her friends. That wasn't enough for Israel who went on to steal land from others and plant their people there. We had a similar ethic cleansing in Ireland called the plantations - you may have heard about it. Israel is armed to the teeth and has nuclear bombs. Israel continues to steal palestinian land and any token resistance is met with shite about "we must defend ourselves". Israel is the aggressor here, it is simple to see. Unless of course you are stupid enough to swallow the Israel military and government press releases which are spin and lies 99% of the time. If you are that stupid then there is no point me trying to inform you.
Ah FFS, will you get off your high horse and don't be such a plank.
Can you address the question - how would you propose Israel defend itself in the region when you have Hamas who does not even recognise the right of the Israeli state to exist ?
And "give her dixie" ...... have you any facts to back up your claims of genocide ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.[1]
While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
As you can see, under this defination, what is happening in Gaza would constitute Genocide.
Starving 1.7 million people, forcing them off their land, bombing and killing thme on a regular basis, etc,etc.
If you require any futher examples, have a read through some of my stories from Gaza, or read just about any human rights groups reports and findings.
Hope that clears that up for you
A definition of genocide - gee thanks.... and you use this as the argument to back your opinion that genocide is taking place ? I don't see the facts. For me its simple ....... if there was even a hint of an argument that could be made to back up the opinion that genocide is taking place, then you would have those beacons of morality and good governance in Sudan and Pakistan (among many others) demanding that the UN Human Rights Council recognise this .... Sudan and Pakistan being the 2 members of the UN Human Rights Council that proposed the resolution to condemn Israel for the attack on the flotilla (the hypocrisy is incredible as it is from at least a dozen other countries of the 47 that make up the UN HRC buts that a seperate thread). Neither Sudan or Pakistan have looked for this to the best of my knowledge nor has anyone else (please correct me if i am wrong on this). and by the way, the population of Gaza is about 3 times lower than what you are suggesting.
Don't get me wrong on all this .... i empathise greatly with the people of Gaza but those bastards in Hamas are creating their problems. Why for example have they not yet allowed all the aid from the flotilla - which is sitting in trucks on the border - into Gaza ? Israelis of course are guilty of many crimes and to be honest i think none of us
really know what is going on cos its as much a war of propoganda as anything else (mylesthelasher seems to know everything definitively though)
I still haven't seen a suggestion of how Israel should defend itself as i think its reasonable to assume that there would be a greater amount of rockets fired if there were open borders into Gaza (of course i fully expect to be accused of the same crap as before of depending on Fox News for forming this opinion).... and Zaptista, i didn't ask for how they defend themselves against Hamas no recognising their right to exist.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 07, 2010, 11:30:28 AM
Well we could start by kicking out the Israeli ambassador and then boycott Israeli products in our shops and supermarkets.
Small gesture but would be reported around the world and may encourage other nations to follow suit, from small acorns grow big oak trees.
I for one have stopped buying Israeli produce.
Like what? I wouldn't think there is much isreali produce in irish markets? Maybe there is but I'm trying to think of possibles but nothing comes up. ???
Quote from: trileacman on June 07, 2010, 12:57:03 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 07, 2010, 11:30:28 AM
Well we could start by kicking out the Israeli ambassador and then boycott Israeli products in our shops and supermarkets.
Small gesture but would be reported around the world and may encourage other nations to follow suit, from small acorns grow big oak trees.
I for one have stopped buying Israeli produce.
Like what? I wouldn't think there is much isreali produce in irish markets? Maybe there is but I'm trying to think of possibles but nothing comes up. ???
And how would you know it was Isreali produce? Lots of supermarkets don't mark were they get their produce from or rebrand it from the country it was processed/packaged in.
GDA is a real hero I think, that will show em ::)
Quote from: thebigfella on June 07, 2010, 01:02:29 PM
Quote from: trileacman on June 07, 2010, 12:57:03 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 07, 2010, 11:30:28 AM
Well we could start by kicking out the Israeli ambassador and then boycott Israeli products in our shops and supermarkets.
Small gesture but would be reported around the world and may encourage other nations to follow suit, from small acorns grow big oak trees.
I for one have stopped buying Israeli produce.
Like what? I wouldn't think there is much isreali produce in irish markets? Maybe there is but I'm trying to think of possibles but nothing comes up. ???
And how would you know it was Isreali produce? Lots of supermarkets don't mark were they get their produce from or rebrand it from the country it was processed/packaged in.
GDA is a real hero I think, that will show em ::)
You sit on your hands then, and where did I say I was being a "real hero".
My actions although small are something, and if more people do like wise then the effects will have more impact, as for Israeli produce, you'll find that a fair bit of your fruit and veg section will have originated in Israel.
Never will another Israeli pastie bap touch my lips.
Quote from: Minder on June 07, 2010, 01:27:35 PM
Never will another Israeli pastie bap touch my lips.
Kosher pastie baps, now that's a novel idea.
Quote from: trileacman on June 07, 2010, 12:57:03 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 07, 2010, 11:30:28 AM
Well we could start by kicking out the Israeli ambassador and then boycott Israeli products in our shops and supermarkets.
Small gesture but would be reported around the world and may encourage other nations to follow suit, from small acorns grow big oak trees.
I for one have stopped buying Israeli produce.
Like what? I wouldn't think there is much isreali produce in irish markets? Maybe there is but I'm trying to think of possibles but nothing comes up. ???
"If you're not in the habit of checking the country of origin on fruit and vegetables to minimise food miles, you may not have noticed just how much Israeli produce is in our shops and supermarkets. At the moment, there are piles of new potatoes (though it's hard to see why anyone with a scrap of environmental awareness would buy these when our indigenous main crop spuds are still firm and abundant), and that's just for starters.
If you go out today and buy avocadoes, sweet potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, Medjoul dates, sharon fruit (persimmons), chillies, oranges, pomegranates, grapefruit or fresh herbs, it's extremely likely that they will be Israeli. Most of this produce carries country of origin labelling or is branded as Carmel, Bio-Top or Jaffa. In the herb category, there's room - intentional or otherwise - for confusion. Increasingly your dill, tarragon or basil may be labelled as 'West Bank'. This is not a Palestinian alternative to the Israeli option; it comes from Israeli settlements in Palestine's occupied territories.
Israel's agricultural exporting company, Carmel Agrexco, is one of the biggest suppliers of fresh produce to the UK. As the company puts it:
Israel's sunny climate enables Agrexco to tap the resources of its Carmel growers most of the annum. By lining up other complementary supply sources – such as fruit, vegetable and root crop growers located in countries in the Mediterranean basin, South America, and Africa – the Carmel label is available year-round
An expert in air-freighting with a base near Heathrow, Agrexco supplies the UK with everything from sweetcorn, rocket and radishes through to melons, strawberries and kumquats, so delivering the 'permanent global summertime' of horticultural produce that food retailers have educated consumers to expect."
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 07, 2010, 01:43:49 PM
Quote from: trileacman on June 07, 2010, 12:57:03 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 07, 2010, 11:30:28 AM
Well we could start by kicking out the Israeli ambassador and then boycott Israeli products in our shops and supermarkets.
Small gesture but would be reported around the world and may encourage other nations to follow suit, from small acorns grow big oak trees.
I for one have stopped buying Israeli produce.
Like what? I wouldn't think there is much isreali produce in irish markets? Maybe there is but I'm trying to think of possibles but nothing comes up. ???
"If you're not in the habit of checking the country of origin on fruit and vegetables to minimise food miles, you may not have noticed just how much Israeli produce is in our shops and supermarkets. At the moment, there are piles of new potatoes (though it's hard to see why anyone with a scrap of environmental awareness would buy these when our indigenous main crop spuds are still firm and abundant), and that's just for starters.
If you go out today and buy avocadoes, sweet potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, Medjoul dates, sharon fruit (persimmons), chillies, oranges, pomegranates, grapefruit or fresh herbs, it's extremely likely that they will be Israeli. Most of this produce carries country of origin labelling or is branded as Carmel, Bio-Top or Jaffa. In the herb category, there's room - intentional or otherwise - for confusion. Increasingly your dill, tarragon or basil may be labelled as 'West Bank'. This is not a Palestinian alternative to the Israeli option; it comes from Israeli settlements in Palestine's occupied territories.
Israel's agricultural exporting company, Carmel Agrexco, is one of the biggest suppliers of fresh produce to the UK. As the company puts it:
Israel's sunny climate enables Agrexco to tap the resources of its Carmel growers most of the annum. By lining up other complementary supply sources – such as fruit, vegetable and root crop growers located in countries in the Mediterranean basin, South America, and Africa – the Carmel label is available year-round
An expert in air-freighting with a base near Heathrow, Agrexco supplies the UK with everything from sweetcorn, rocket and radishes through to melons, strawberries and kumquats, so delivering the 'permanent global summertime' of horticultural produce that food retailers have educated consumers to expect."
So all I have to do to defeat the isreali's is not eat all this and scoff a few more big mac's and some cheesy chicken curry butties!! Sign me up! :D
Seriously though GDA I didnt know all this would be of isreali origin. must look it up next time I'm in the shops. Cant say I'll ne joining you on your dietary crusade though, haven't the time to check the labelling on every food item I lift.
It is a fact as GDA pointed out that a lot of our fruit and veg in Tesco/ASDA etc is Origin of Israel, shipped over here and packed by local suppliers.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 06, 2010, 09:35:48 PM
Quote from: red hander on June 06, 2010, 08:33:29 PM
See The Pixies have cancelled a gig in Tel Aviv next week in protest at the apartheid regime's murder tactics ... more of the same needed
I thought the idea was to punish them, not reward them.
You're absolutely right ... so when are you flying out to Tel Aviv, arsehole?
Quote from: red hander on June 07, 2010, 04:34:35 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 06, 2010, 09:35:48 PM
Quote from: red hander on June 06, 2010, 08:33:29 PM
See The Pixies have cancelled a gig in Tel Aviv next week in protest at the apartheid regime's murder tactics ... more of the same needed
I thought the idea was to punish them, not reward them.
You're absolutely right ... so when are you flying out to Tel Aviv, arsehole?
That made me spit my water out!! ;D :D :D :D :D
Quote from: red hander on June 07, 2010, 04:34:35 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 06, 2010, 09:35:48 PM
Quote from: red hander on June 06, 2010, 08:33:29 PM
See The Pixies have cancelled a gig in Tel Aviv next week in protest at the apartheid regime's murder tactics ... more of the same needed
I thought the idea was to punish them, not reward them.
You're absolutely right ... so when are you flying out to Tel Aviv, arsehole?
:D :D :D
Quote from: pintsofguinness on June 02, 2010, 07:23:07 PM
I say storm the embassy shooting and when he grabs the closest object to him to defend himself put a bullet in his head and claim we've a right to defend Ireland.
The ambassador would die laughing when he saw a Mr Blobby lookalike struggling to make it up the steps.
The obvious thing is to blockade the embassy. Also we need to knock all the buildings and include cement as part of the blockade so they can't rebuild it. Anyone who tries to give them supplies should be labelled activists and deported.
Quote from: Down South on June 07, 2010, 10:25:06 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on June 02, 2010, 07:23:07 PM
I say storm the embassy shooting and when he grabs the closest object to him to defend himself put a bullet in his head and claim we've a right to defend Ireland.
The ambassador would die laughing when he saw a Mr Blobby lookalike struggling to make it up the steps.
It's a wonder you haven't called him out for a fight with no witnesses :D :D :D :D :D
At least he would have the balls to defend himslef, not like a certain lardy arse from Silverbridge.
Quote from: Down South on June 07, 2010, 10:31:27 PM
At least he would have the balls to defend himslef, not like a certain lardy arse from Silverbridge.
I have no trouble defending myself.
Is that another empty threat?
threat ??? it's not a threat :D
Quote from: Down South on June 07, 2010, 10:37:12 PM
Is that another empty threat?
How is saying you can defend yourself a threat?
Quote from: muppet on June 07, 2010, 10:28:07 PM
The obvious thing is to blockade the embassy. Also we need to knock all the buildings and include cement as part of the blockade so they can't rebuild it. Anyone who tries to give them supplies should be labelled activists and deported.
That won't work without a moral-less superpower to stand over us and protect us from the half of the planet we piss off in the process.
Quote from: trileacman on June 07, 2010, 10:46:00 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 07, 2010, 10:28:07 PM
The obvious thing is to blockade the embassy. Also we need to knock all the buildings and include cement as part of the blockade so they can't rebuild it. Anyone who tries to give them supplies should be labelled activists and deported.
That won't work without a moral-less superpower to stand over us and protect us from the half of the planet we piss off in the process.
But Brian Cowen said there would be serious consequences. Surely he wasn't talking about Callely?
Quote from: muppet on June 07, 2010, 10:28:07 PM
The obvious thing is to blockade the embassy. Also we need to knock all the buildings and include cement as part of the blockade so they can't rebuild it. Anyone who tries to give them supplies should be labelled activists and deported.
Almost, I'd say anyone that even looks like they may have carried supplies in the previous say 1 month should be shot on the spot - anyone with a stoop or rough hands or dirt under their finger nails. You can't take chances. But we will need someone to communicate the truth to those ignorant enough out there that might question us. I nominate Ian O Doherty, he is too fat and lazy to do any research himself so we'll do it for him. If Ian is eating burgers or otherwise is too busy being hillarious and witty elsewhere then Blast05 will have to do.
Quote from: muppet on June 07, 2010, 10:49:25 PM
But Brian Cowen said there would be serious consequences. Surely he wasn't talking about Callely?
The serious consequences were that Ireland wouldn't give Israel any points at next year's Eurovision.
(http://arabnews.com/incoming/article62383.ece/BINARY/large/0607_cartoon.jpeg)
Quote from: give her dixie on June 07, 2010, 12:00:10 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.[1]
While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
As you can see, under this defination, what is happening in Gaza would constitute Genocide.
Starving 1.7 million people, forcing them off their land, bombing and killing thme on a regular basis, etc,etc.
If you require any futher examples, have a read through some of my stories from Gaza, or read just about any human rights groups reports and findings.
Hope that clears that up for you
The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.
The flotilla did not achieve its primary aim to break the blockade but to an extent it achieved the secondary aim, beyond expectations.
The IDF response to the flotilla was entirely counterproductive for Israel. The IDF committed murder in the 1st degree against those who had every right to attempt to protect themselves. The more measured response to the Rachel Corrie demonstrates everything that was wrong in attacking the earlier ships.
This is some bizzarre sh1t
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/05/gaza.flotilla.mock.video/index.html?hpt=T1~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/05/gaza.flotilla.mock.video/index.html?hpt=T1~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~)
They also put out this recording, and had to apologise for faking it........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxY7Q7CvQPQ&feature=player_embedded
Click here for a detailed report on their actions.....
http://blcnn.wordpress.com/2010/06/06/audio-idf-admits-doctoring-audio-of-raid-on-gaza-flotilla/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg
Is the lad with the red wig is supposed to be Irish?
Quote from: give her dixie on June 08, 2010, 09:42:18 PM
They also put out this recording, and had to apologise for faking it........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxY7Q7CvQPQ&feature=player_embedded
Click here for a detailed report on their actions.....
http://blcnn.wordpress.com/2010/06/06/audio-idf-admits-doctoring-audio-of-raid-on-gaza-flotilla/
Noticable how they ban comments on the video. Hoping to fool everyone who sees it into believing it.
The other side of the Gaza blockade
This is how Israel treat children in the name of a war against Hamas - scum is all they are.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-other-side-of-the-gaza-blockade-1992076.html
Taysir Al Burai is severely disabled. He requires round-the-clock medical care. If he were allowed to leave Gaza, he could make a full recovery. But Israel won't let him
By Catrina Stewart in Gaza City
Saturday, 5 June 2010SHARE PRINTEMAILTEXT SIZE NORMALLARGEEXTRA LARGE
CATRINA STEWART
Taysir Al Burai with his uncle, Yahia
Ramzi al Burai knows better than most what it means to be imprisoned. This week's botched commando raid on the flotilla of pro-Palestinian aid activists trying to reach Gaza has swung the global spotlight on the Israeli-imposed blockade as never before, but the Al Burai family have been living that reality for the past three years.
Their severely disabled son, Taysir, requires round-the-clock care. Neither Ramzi nor his wife can leave the five-year-old for longer than an hour. Part-asphyxiated during delivery, the boy suffers from an acute neurological disorder. He is unable to talk properly, suffers spasms and anti-convulsant medication has left him partially paralysed.
If his parents could only get him to Germany, or even just across the border to Israel, he would be able to get the specialist medical care that doctors say could lead to a full recovery. Ramzi has repeatedly appealed to the Israeli authorities to allow his son out of the tiny coastal enclave, but has been refused each time.
"My son is the one paying the price of this blockade, nobody else," his 37-year-old father said, sitting in a tiny flat in Gaza's Jabaliya refugee camp. "We can't do anything for him right now: we don't have the medicine."
Three years after Israel and Egypt virtually sealed their borders with Gaza in a bid to weaken the Islamist movement Hamas, the Palestinian residents of the Gaza Strip are deep in despair. Militarily, Israel can boast of success. Hamas, isolated by the siege and cowed by a devastating 22-day military offensive at the end of 2008 that killed 1,400 Palestinians, does not fire many rockets these days at Israel.
But there can be little doubt the civilian population, not Hamas, is suffering from the siege, which has brought a once-thriving economy to its knees.
Gazans are dying from vastly inferior healthcare while Israel denies entry to all but essential goods, forcing traders to smuggle provisions in through a network of tunnels along the Egyptian border, which has given rise to a parallel economy. A land and sea blockade means none but a fortunate few can leave.
At Gaza's al-Shifa hospital, doctors gaze morosely at a grey building that is only half-built. It was supposed to be the hospital's new wing, designed to boost capacity by 30 per cent, but construction was abandoned after the siege prevented any building materials from getting through.
That is perhaps the least of their problems. Doctors say they lack even the most basic equipment, such as sterilisers. Both of their CT scanners can be out of order for weeks at a time because it can take more than a month to obtain the spare parts. Many of the doctors have outdated skills, but cannot travel abroad for training.
"Health cannot be run only by pills and injections," says Mahmoud Daher, head of the World Health Organisation's office in Gaza. "You need a system surrounding this medication."
In a nearby ward, a 20-year-old Palestinian woman is fighting for her life. She suffered massive haemorrhaging after giving birth, and doctors say only an operation in Israel can save her. They have been waiting for Israeli clearance to transfer her for more than 24 hours. When asked what will happen if she is not moved soon, a doctor replies bluntly: "She will die."
Walking along the shorefront a short distance away from the hospital, one could imagine that Gaza City is like hundreds of other seaside towns. Children cartwheel in the surf and build sandcastles while their parents sit watching. Except, of course, Gaza is no ordinary place.
A Turkish flag flutters above a coastguard hut, taking prominence over the ubiquitous Palestinian standard. Gazans feel a deep sense of gratitude to the Turks, who along with hundreds of other peace activists made the failed attempt to breach the blockade with ships laden with humanitarian aid. Of the nine activists killed by Israeli commandoes four were Turkish.
Another ship, the Rachel Corrie, is steaming towards Gaza, but few expect it to get through. But the bloodshed has done what no tale of suffering could do: it has unleashed the wrath of the international community against Israel, and given Gazans a glimmer of hope that the siege is on its last legs.
This week, there have been signs of the blockade springing leaks. Egypt moved quickly to open its Rafah crossing, allowing students, patients and those with foreign passports to cross. In a single day this week, 793 Gazans were able to leave the Strip, and 548 came in, Interior Ministry figures show. Nearly 300 were refused permission to leave.
Although Israel has resolutely defended its policy, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu indicated this week he would seek "creative" solutions to ease the situation in Gaza. How far Israel will go is unclear, because it has long insisted there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
The economic collapse in Gaza is striking. A decade ago, annual per capita income in Gaza was $2,500, and some $400m of goods was exported to Israel annually. When Israel imposed the siege after Hamas seized power in 2007, per capita income fell to around $900. Last year, it was just $600, plunging most Gazans below the poverty line to survive on less than $2 a day.
By the most conservative estimates, unemployment runs at 45 per cent, and the UN Relief and Works and Agency says it gets some 40,000 applications for even the most menial jobs. About 80 per cent of the population is now dependent on UN food parcels, quarterly packages comprising rice, milk, flour, cooking oil, sugar and cans of meat. "We are not Darfur," says Palestinian economist Omar Shaban. "If you removed the siege, people could live as they do in the South of France. We have everything in our homes. But we deserve better lives."
Hundreds of Gazans have not been able to rebuild homes destroyed in the invasion as they cannot obtain the building materials, and children are forced to attend school in shifts. Farmers are unable to plough their lands and fishermen are restricted to a tiny area now empty of fish. And much of Gaza's sewage is pumped into the sea because sanitation facilities are poor.
The smuggling tunnels have brought some relief, but few can afford to buy the foodstuffs that line the shelves of Gazan grocery stores or the shipments of inferior Egyptian cement. But that lifeline could soon be gone: Egypt is building an underground steel wall that would sever the tunnels.
Although most Gazans know that Israel would instantly ease the blockade if Hamas released Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier captured in a cross-border raid four years ago, Hamas is basking in the reflected glory of the misjudged assault on the peace flotilla. "I blame Israel," says Hassan Hasuna, a Gaza shopkeeper whose profits have dried to a trickle. "I don't blame Hamas that much because they can't do anything."
On Gaza's shore, Samer, an English teacher, looks out to sea. He has long lost hope of anything different. "The only thing they don't blockade is the air we breathe," he says. "The sea is the last way for Palestinians to have fun."
Dixie, I'd not put anything past them, but the link you have posted has three videos. The first one with the offensive comments. The second one without them, and then a longer (full?) version including the offensive comments. So you're saying first and third are doctored?
I'm not questioning you, just asking clarification.
Thanks.
I believe they doctored the tapes.
If you read through the article, Max explains the sequence of events, and how
certain voices are added saying thing they didn't say from this trip.
They used recordings from previous trips, and mixed the into the recording.
If anyone believes they are been honest in any shape or form in their version of
events, then you are been taken for fool.
The PR they employed in the days following the attacks, led everyone into believing
that they were attacked. They are the victim. They are squeeky clean. They are nice people.
They managed to convince a few, but the world sat up and took notice.
Below is an eye witness account from a very good friend of mine, Ibrahim Musaji.
He was on the top deck when they were attacked.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/gloucestershire/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8726000/8726472.stm
Ah ffs...you're at it again dotting I's and crossing T's where
there possibly aren't any. If it's all as bad as you claim why the need to
to put tails on everything ??? We get it already...or atleast we did
If it's not in the titles, it's embedded in the post!
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 09, 2010, 05:34:49 AM
Ah ffs...you're at it again dotting I's and crossing T's where
there possibly aren't any. If it's all as bad as you claim why the need to
to put tails on everything ??? We get it already...or atleast we did
If it's not in the titles, it's embedded in the post!
What the f**k are you blathering about now. If you insist on writing garbage on here you might as well put it in a way that we can understand. Now, any chance you could remove the flag of the republic from your avitar. I asked you before, you know, since you have as much love for the concepts of a republic as the Queen of England.
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 09, 2010, 05:34:49 AM
Ah ffs...you're at it again dotting I's and crossing T's where
there possibly aren't any. If it's all as bad as you claim why the need to
to put tails on everything ??? We get it already...or atleast we did
If it's not in the titles, it's embedded in the post!
Alright already ;)
Quote from: Main Street on June 08, 2010, 09:27:37 PM
The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.
You mean the Iraeli State? Wiping out a State is no Genocide.
I have followed this thread with interest from the start and i am amnnoyed and saddened at a number of the pro Israeli State posts.These posts tend to trot out the now tired defence of defending our country against Hamas attacks. They also perpetuate the myth that the Palestinians want to eradicate the Israeli people.
I would like to add my own thoughts on this issue. The Palestinian people do not want to eradicate the Israeli people, they want to co-exist with the Israeli's in a fair and democratic state, where they are treated with equality. They want to eradicate the Israeli state and all that it stands for and create a more pluralist and egalitarian state, where all the children of the country will be cherished.
Why do i make these assertions, well in the mid 90's I studied for six months at the university of Patras, Greece. Palestinian students, were offered free university education by the Greek government, resulting in a large Palestinian student body, as well as a sizeable body of students from across the Arab world. During may discussions on the Palestinian issue, never once did anybody express a wish or desire to exterminate the Jewish people, they just wanted a better way of life for them and future generations. Now before people say that as University students they would be more enlightened in their views, remeber these people were getting free education because their situation was so dire, these were the ordinary people of Gaza and the West Bank. They just wanted to live in peace.
Another small point, a friend of mine, also out there studying, when saying cheers, would say hamas ( Greek for cheers is yamas) jokingly. Each time the Palestinians would have a look of shock and horror and openly rebuke him. They had very little time for this organisation.
Interestingly talking to these people and students from more hardline states such as Iran and Iraq and students from Jordan, the bulk of there anger was directed at not Israel but two other states, namely the USA and Britain, one for creating the Palestinian problem and the other for prolonging it.
Quote from: give her dixie on June 07, 2010, 12:00:10 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.[1]
[/quote]
Very interesting article on the politics of genocide.
http://www.monthlyreview.org/100501herman-peterson.php
Quote from: Zapatista on June 09, 2010, 09:04:13 AM
Quote from: Main Street on June 08, 2010, 09:27:37 PM
The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.
You mean the Iraeli State? Wiping out a State is no Genocide.
You could say re Hamas that their goal is to wipe out the State of israel
but in practical terms to them, the State of Israel and Jews are one entity.
Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah leader of Hezbollah "If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (NY Times, May 23, 2004, p. 15, section 2, column 1.) Nasrallah is one of the most admired men in the Muslim and Arab world.
Hashemi Rafsanjani, the former president of Iran, has threatened Israel with nuclear destruction, boasting that an attack would kill as many as five million Jews. Rafsanjani estimated that even if Israel retaliated by dropping its own nuclear bombs, Iran would probably lose only fifteen million people, which he said would be a small "sacrifice" from among the billion Muslims in the world.
The current President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who denies the Nazi Holocaust, but calls for a modern Holocaust that would "wipe Israel off the map."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0261250620080603 (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0261250620080603)
It is commonly accepted that Iran backs Hezbollah
Norman Finkelstein
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=15 (http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=15) - the last few lines
has said,
"looking back my chief regret is that I wasn't even more forceful in publicly defending Hezbollah against terrorist intimidation and attack."Noam Chomsky, who works closely with Finkelstein, has said of Finkelstein that he is "a person who can speak with more authority and insight on these topics [Israel and anti-Semitism] than anyone I can think of."
I am no unconditional supporter of Israel but I have an antipathy towards the nonsense that comes out of Finklestein and Chomsky about Israel and the liberator/defenders of the oppressed nonsense about Hezbollah and Hamas.
I accept the State of Israel's right to exist and has the inherent right to defend itself, including (within reason) preemptive strikes and nuclear deterrents.
Are there supporters of the Palestinians in the West who accept Israel's right to exist?
If so, how do they see the State of Israel existing?
The weak theoretical (but widely and blindly accepted) solution of the 2 states existing side by side, is dead in the water. Imo,the chances for peace are better with the 2 a single state with full citizenship and old land issues sorted. The Israeli constitution has not yet been written but it would appear that the secular argument is proving strongest.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 09, 2010, 09:04:13 AM
Quote from: Main Street on June 08, 2010, 09:27:37 PM
The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.
You mean the Iraeli State? Wiping out a State is no Genocide.
Main street touched on it above and I'll ask it again...what becomes of the people
of Israel if the
state is gone tomorrow ???
What is the current death toll from the flotilla murders????
Quote from: Main Street on June 09, 2010, 03:54:55 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 09, 2010, 09:04:13 AM
Quote from: Main Street on June 08, 2010, 09:27:37 PM
The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.
You mean the Iraeli State? Wiping out a State is no Genocide.
You could say re Hamas that their goal is to wipe out the State of israel
but in practical terms to them, the State of Israel and Jews are one entity.
Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah leader of Hezbollah "If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (NY Times, May 23, 2004, p. 15, section 2, column 1.) Nasrallah is one of the most admired men in the Muslim and Arab world.
Hashemi Rafsanjani, the former president of Iran, has threatened Israel with nuclear destruction, boasting that an attack would kill as many as five million Jews. Rafsanjani estimated that even if Israel retaliated by dropping its own nuclear bombs, Iran would probably lose only fifteen million people, which he said would be a small "sacrifice" from among the billion Muslims in the world.
The current President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who denies the Nazi Holocaust, but calls for a modern Holocaust that would "wipe Israel off the map."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0261250620080603 (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0261250620080603)
It is commonly accepted that Iran backs Hezbollah
Norman Finkelstein
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=15 (http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=15) - the last few lines
has said,
"looking back my chief regret is that I wasn't even more forceful in publicly defending Hezbollah against terrorist intimidation and attack."
Noam Chomsky, who works closely with Finkelstein, has said of Finkelstein that he is "a person who can speak with more authority and insight on these topics [Israel and anti-Semitism] than anyone I can think of."
I am no unconditional supporter of Israel but I have an antipathy towards the nonsense that comes out of Finklestein and Chomsky about Israel and the liberator/defenders of the oppressed nonsense about Hezbollah and Hamas.
I accept the State of Israel's right to exist and has the inherent right to defend itself, including (within reason) preemptive strikes and nuclear deterrents.
Are there supporters of the Palestinians in the West who accept Israel's right to exist?
If so, how do they see the State of Israel existing?
The weak theoretical (but widely and blindly accepted) solution of the 2 states existing side by side, is dead in the water. Imo,the chances for peace are better with the 2 a single state with full citizenship and old land issues sorted. The Israeli constitution has not yet been written but it would appear that the secular argument is proving strongest.
Let's just start with your first point....have you any sources to back up that assertion or is that just your opinion?
Quote from: stew on June 09, 2010, 06:29:45 PM
What is the current death toll from the flotilla murders????
Stew, 9 dead at present, and there are apparently 6 people still missing.
There have been eye witness reports of 4 Palestinians been thrown overboard, however, I havn't
had anyone I know confirm or deny this.
There is also the possibility that they could all be in a hospital somewhere, without any details been released.
There would be the current situation, according to most of my sources.
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 09, 2010, 05:52:37 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 09, 2010, 09:04:13 AM
Quote from: Main Street on June 08, 2010, 09:27:37 PM
The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.
You mean the Iraeli State? Wiping out a State is no Genocide.
Main street touched on it above and I'll ask it again...what becomes of the people
of Israel if the state is gone tomorrow ???
This thread is 27 pages long, and to date, all you have done is attack me, and as of now, you havn't given one single opinion on the attacks.
How about you telling us what you think for a change?
Was Israel right to attack, or wrong?
Were they right to kidnap and assault Irish Citizens, and kidnap their boat in International Waters?
Since you fly the Irish flag in your avatar, maybe you would have an opinion on this?
I'm sure there are a lot of people on here who would like to hear your opinion on this topic?
What about the 19 year old US citizen who was shot 4 times in the head at close range?
What about the fact that the US havn't condemned this murder, or the other 8 murders,
whenever every other country in the world have?
I'm of the honest belief that a better understanding or indeed answers to your seven questions here could be found in the answer to my question above
...if some of ye would step up to the plate
and answer it honestly that is.
And as for attacking you, I like a few others here would like you to put a lid on the hatred you have for Israel when putting forth your facts in this case...surely you understand that you sound no different than Netanyahu and his ilk when you come off this way.
Like I said before, if it's as bad as you make it out to be then I see no reason for propagandizing this disaster with exaggerations, simple facts would be fine as I think we're all old enough here to see it as it is without your ideals piled on top of it!!
Quote from: Main Street on June 09, 2010, 03:54:55 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 09, 2010, 09:04:13 AM
Quote from: Main Street on June 08, 2010, 09:27:37 PM
The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.
You mean the Iraeli State? Wiping out a State is no Genocide.
You could say re Hamas that their goal is to wipe out the State of israel
but in practical terms to them, the State of Israel and Jews are one entity.
Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah leader of Hezbollah "If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (NY Times, May 23, 2004, p. 15, section 2, column 1.) Nasrallah is one of the most admired men in the Muslim and Arab world.
Hashemi Rafsanjani, the former president of Iran, has threatened Israel with nuclear destruction, boasting that an attack would kill as many as five million Jews. Rafsanjani estimated that even if Israel retaliated by dropping its own nuclear bombs, Iran would probably lose only fifteen million people, which he said would be a small "sacrifice" from among the billion Muslims in the world.
The current President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who denies the Nazi Holocaust, but calls for a modern Holocaust that would "wipe Israel off the map."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0261250620080603 (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0261250620080603)
It is commonly accepted that Iran backs Hezbollah
Norman Finkelstein
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=15 (http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=15) - the last few lines
has said,
"looking back my chief regret is that I wasn't even more forceful in publicly defending Hezbollah against terrorist intimidation and attack."
Noam Chomsky, who works closely with Finkelstein, has said of Finkelstein that he is "a person who can speak with more authority and insight on these topics [Israel and anti-Semitism] than anyone I can think of."
I am no unconditional supporter of Israel but I have an antipathy towards the nonsense that comes out of Finklestein and Chomsky about Israel and the liberator/defenders of the oppressed nonsense about Hezbollah and Hamas.
I accept the State of Israel's right to exist and has the inherent right to defend itself, including (within reason) preemptive strikes and nuclear deterrents.
Are there supporters of the Palestinians in the West who accept Israel's right to exist?
If so, how do they see the State of Israel existing?
The weak theoretical (but widely and blindly accepted) solution of the 2 states existing side by side, is dead in the water. Imo,the chances for peace are better with the 2 a single state with full citizenship and old land issues sorted. The Israeli constitution has not yet been written but it would appear that the secular argument is proving strongest.
Well by law and agreements the state of Israel should revert to the 1967 borders. However, Israel never lives up to agreements and continues, even today, to expand its border by stealing land. They constantly rumble about palestinian state and at the same time bit by bit steal more. Have a look at the 67 border as agreed to define the palestinian state and look at where we are at today. You see, Israel is not interested in peace per say, it is interested in bring all the lost jewish people back to a homeland and they don't give 2 fucks who the trample over to achieve this.
Now I don't speak Iranian but there are a lot of scholars out there that claim Ahmadinejad was intentionally mis-translated with regard to his infamous speech about wiping out Israel. Supposedly he want to wipe out the current regime in Israel. I don't know about you but I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the same people that called humanitarian aid workers terrorists and murdered 9 of them would make up such a story.
Finally, I don't believe arabs of the middle east want to wipe out Israel, they want to have equal treatment. They have a nasty aggressive nuclear primed army and flout international law while the like of Iran is under constant threat from the Yanks for doing half of what Israel does. Arabs want fair play I would say.
Quote from: give her dixie on June 09, 2010, 08:01:58 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 09, 2010, 05:52:37 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 09, 2010, 09:04:13 AM
Quote from: Main Street on June 08, 2010, 09:27:37 PM
The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.
You mean the Iraeli State? Wiping out a State is no Genocide.
Main street touched on it above and I'll ask it again...what becomes of the people
of Israel if the state is gone tomorrow ???
This thread is 27 pages long, and to date, all you have done is attack me, and as of now, you havn't given one single opinion on the attacks.
How about you telling us what you think for a change?
Was Israel right to attack, or wrong?
Were they right to kidnap and assault Irish Citizens, and kidnap their boat in International Waters?
Since you fly the Irish flag in your avatar, maybe you would have an opinion on this?
I'm sure there are a lot of people on here who would like to hear your opinion on this topic?
What about the 19 year old US citizen who was shot 4 times in the head at close range?
What about the fact that the US havn't condemned this murder, or the other 8 murders,
whenever every other country in the world have?
Don't waste your time Dixie. You have done more than a useless waster like him could ever hope to do to help your fellow man, I know cos i met you and saw what you achieved for poor starving men, women and children. I wouldn't allow this little p***k to belittle anything you have done or anything you have seen. He hasn't even the balls to say what he thinks because he doesn't think, he just regurgitates what Fox news says. He should stick up his yankee flag and come out of the closet as he is no Irishman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT5823U5YLc
Footage of the 19 year old US citizen getting kicked , and then executed.
QuoteNow I don't speak Iranian but there are a lot of scholars out there that claim Ahmadinejad was intentionally mis-translated with regard to his infamous speech about wiping out Israel. Supposedly he want to wipe out the current regime in Israel. I don't know about you but I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the same people that called humanitarian aid workers terrorists and murdered 9 of them would make up such a story.
Oh Holy Feck.... and there maybe still some here that wonder why I have some serious questions
for the ideologues dressed as humanitarians we have amongst us :o
I suppose the holocaust rant was misinterpreted also ::)... you make me sick!!
Quote from: Main Street on June 09, 2010, 03:54:55 PM
You could say re Hamas that their goal is to wipe out the State of israel
but in practical terms to them, the State of Israel and Jews are one entity.
Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah leader of Hezbollah "If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (NY Times, May 23, 2004, p. 15, section 2, column 1.) Nasrallah is one of the most admired men in the Muslim and Arab world.
Hashemi Rafsanjani, the former president of Iran, has threatened Israel with nuclear destruction, boasting that an attack would kill as many as five million Jews. Rafsanjani estimated that even if Israel retaliated by dropping its own nuclear bombs, Iran would probably lose only fifteen million people, which he said would be a small "sacrifice" from among the billion Muslims in the world.
The current President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who denies the Nazi Holocaust, but calls for a modern Holocaust that would "wipe Israel off the map."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0261250620080603 (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0261250620080603)
It is commonly accepted that Iran backs Hezbollah
Norman Finkelstein
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=15 (http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=15) - the last few lines
has said,
"looking back my chief regret is that I wasn't even more forceful in publicly defending Hezbollah against terrorist intimidation and attack."
Noam Chomsky, who works closely with Finkelstein, has said of Finkelstein that he is "a person who can speak with more authority and insight on these topics [Israel and anti-Semitism] than anyone I can think of."
I am no unconditional supporter of Israel but I have an antipathy towards the nonsense that comes out of Finklestein and Chomsky about Israel and the liberator/defenders of the oppressed nonsense about Hezbollah and Hamas.
I accept the State of Israel's right to exist and has the inherent right to defend itself, including (within reason) preemptive strikes and nuclear deterrents.
Are there supporters of the Palestinians in the West who accept Israel's right to exist?
If so, how do they see the State of Israel existing?
The weak theoretical (but widely and blindly accepted) solution of the 2 states existing side by side, is dead in the water. Imo,the chances for peace are better with the 2 a single state with full citizenship and old land issues sorted. The Israeli constitution has not yet been written but it would appear that the secular argument is proving strongest.
I don't understand how you can quote something printed in English which was said in Arabic. Not only that but it is without any context.
Nasrallah is one of the most admired men in the Muslim and Arab world. - Says who, The NYT? The Muslim world is full of admired men and they don't all agree with eachother.
Why would a Country without Nuclear weapons threaten a Nucear attack on a Country armed to the teeth with them?
Wiping Israel off the map does not mean killing all Jews. It means an end to Israel as it was 70 years ago. Again said in Arabic part quoted in English. Setting the stage by describing Ahmaddinejad as a Holocaust denier doesn't mean he said what you quoted.
It was commonly accepted that Iraq had WMD too.
I support the right of Israel to exist as an ideal however I also support the right of Palestine to exist as a reality. I agree that a two State solution is very hard to see now. I believe that Israel has become nothing more than a Western army base on Palestinian land and therefore has no right to exist. It is compromised. I believe that the western world know that a two state solution will no longer work and so are backing Irael to wipeout Palestine so that one state will exist and it will be Israel the Western army base.
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 09, 2010, 05:52:37 PM
Main street touched on it above and I'll ask it again...what becomes of the people
of Israel if the state is gone tomorrow ???
They become Jewish Palestinians ???
Quotewhat becomes of the people
of Israel if the state is gone tomorrow
They become Palestinian as they were if they lived where they do now before 1947 or if they want they can return to where they came from (like that reporter in the US said), alot of Israeli's hold Dual passports as they were not born in the region or their parents weren't born in the region. This however now is no better than what the Israeli's did to the displaced Palestinians (the people they deny the right of return too). But this is moot as Israel is here to stay. The two state solution is the only viable option, no matter how hard it is to achieve.
I am not sure what Ahmadinejad said, maybe it was lost in translation maybe he meant what he said. Either way it is moot. People say alot of stuff you shouldn't hold them to in the heat of the moment.
Here is a quote from Sharon
Quote"I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him."
Everybody has to move; run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours. Everything we don't grab will go to them." (this was just after the Olso Peace deal.
Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us, to pull the rug from underneath the feet of the Diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and there, I don't care
And then to quote Benjamin Netanyahu
QuoteSharon gave and gave and gave, the Palestinians got and got and got, and my question is, what did we get? Nothing and nothing and nothing,"
Hamas started because the Israelis want to fracture the PLO. Hamas grew because the PLO moved its base out of the occupied terrority to Beirut in the 80's. Hamas grew because it claimed its resistence forced the Israelis to withdraw from Gaza (2005). Why Israel didn't work with the Palestinians instead of a unilateral move is beyond me. It Length weight to the Hamas Claim. Hamas Political wing Won elections IN 2006. They offered Israel a 10-year "hudna," or truce, as implicit proof of recognition of Israel if it withdrew from all lands it seized in the 1967 Middle East War in 2008. The world turned its back on Hamas. Be very grateful Sinn Fein and the IRA were treated differently or we might not be were we are today. T
The blockade continues to strengthen support for Hamas. Hamas are the only people standing up for the people of Gaza. The people of Gaza will no be dicatated to by the Israelis. Collectively punishing the people of Gaza is not Defeating Hamas.
Have a look at the maps to see how much land the Israelis have stolen - http://palestinethinktank.com/2006/05/10/the-shrinking-map-of-palestine/ (http://palestinethinktank.com/2006/05/10/the-shrinking-map-of-palestine/)
Quote from: Zapatista on June 10, 2010, 12:17:21 AM
Why would a Country without Nuclear weapons (Iran) threaten a Nucear attack on a Country armed to the teeth with them?
a. because they have nuclear weapons
b. they actively aspire towards having nuclear weapons
c. the Iranian leader is a raving lunatic
I suspect a mix of b and c.
Do you doubt that this was said by the Iranian president? The motives are rooted in dogma.
On the sanctions.
It does not help the situation when the Iranian president (Ahmadinejad) is a raving lunatic, actively supports Hezbollah and has publically threatened Israel with annihilation, but further sanctions against Iran and its proud people are both immoral and irrational.
Economic sanctions have become the main part of US foreign policy. They say there are about 200 nations/ half the population of the world - are currently under economic sanction by the US.
Aside from the dubious value of achieving objectives through sanctions, what we do know is that they hit the ordinary people. About the only people that sanctions rarely inconvenience are the politicians in both nations. Both sets of
politicians generally make quick and easy capital out of sanctions
Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2010, 01:43:17 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 10, 2010, 12:17:21 AM
Why would a Country without Nuclear weapons (Iran) threaten a Nucear attack on a Country armed to the teeth with them?
a. because they have nuclear weapons
b. they actively aspire towards having nuclear weapons
c. the Iranian leader is a raving lunatic
a. No they don't
b. We don't know that (remember Iraq?) To be fair he probably is though.
c. Not relevent.
Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2010, 01:43:17 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 10, 2010, 12:17:21 AM
Why would a Country without Nuclear weapons (Iran) threaten a Nucear attack on a Country armed to the teeth with them?
a. because they have nuclear weapons
b. they actively aspire towards having nuclear weapons
c. the Iranian leader is a raving lunatic
I suspect a mix of b and c.
Do you doubt that this was said by the Iranian president? The motives are rooted in dogma.
To imply that Iran is run by morons is racist. the elite in Iran are motivated by the same things as the elite in Ireland- money. Was
the stewardship of Ireland between 2000 and 2008 rational ? Just wondering. Israel would have everyone believe that Iran can't be trusted with nuclear weapons because there is something inherently unstable about the shia brain. this is pure racism. In reality Iranian nukes would neutralise Israel's first mover advantage in the area of nuclear weapons. that is the only issue. Why should Israel have the right to nuclear weapons and to run torture centres and continue to dispossess Palestinians of their land ?
Quote from: seafoid on June 10, 2010, 02:08:15 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2010, 01:43:17 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 10, 2010, 12:17:21 AM
Why would a Country without Nuclear weapons (Iran) threaten a Nucear attack on a Country armed to the teeth with them?
a. because they have nuclear weapons
b. they actively aspire towards having nuclear weapons
c. the Iranian leader is a raving lunatic
I suspect a mix of b and c.
Do you doubt that this was said by the Iranian president? The motives are rooted in dogma.
To imply that Iran is run by morons is racist. the elite in Iran are motivated by the same things as the elite in Ireland- money. Was
the stewardship of Ireland between 2000 and 2008 rational ? Just wondering. Israel would have everyone believe that Iran can't be trusted with nuclear weapons because there is something inherently unstable about the shia brain. this is pure racism. In reality Iranian nukes would neutralise Israel's first mover advantage in the area of nuclear weapons. that is the only issue. Why should Israel have the right to nuclear weapons and to run torture centres and continue to dispossess Palestinians of their land ?
Read a bit more carefully, I wrote that
"the Iranian leader is a raving lunatic"
If you want to debate that statement, then please do so without throwing irrational insults.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 10, 2010, 01:57:22 PM
c. Not relevent.
Not relevant that the Iranian leader is a lunatic, has claimed the Allah given right to annihilate Israel and actively supported Hezbollah to carry out Hezbollah's Allah given right to wipe israel of the map?
I think you need to brush up on the whole theatre of rabid politics/war in the middle east before you throw every Israel security concern into the dustbin.
Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2010, 02:19:16 PM
Read a bit more carefully, I wrote that
"the Iranian leader is a raving lunatic"
If you want to debate that statement, then please do so without throwing irrational insults.
You say someone you know nothing about, other than news fed from his enemies, is a raving lunatic. Then you complain about irrational insults.
Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2010, 02:19:16 PM
Not relevant that the Iranian leader is a lunatic, has claimed the Allah given right to annihilate Israel and actively supported Hezbollah to carry out Hezbollah's Allah given right to wipe israel of the map?
I think you need to brush up on the whole theatre of rabid politics/war in the middle east before you throw every Israel security concern into the dustbin.
No it's not relevent. You do not know if he is a lunatic and even if he was it only serves to contradict you. How can a lunatic with no Nuclear weapons threaten Israel and plan to wipe it off the map (as in the entire country and it's inhabitants) be taken seriously? I heard GW Bush claimed God told him to invade Iraq? Did T Blair not tell us that Iraq could wipe out Britain in 45 mins with weapons of Mass Destruction.
I don't need to brush up on anything. All I am doing is questioning were all this came from rather than accept the word of Iranian enemies.
If you can read Arabic and get an original copy of the speech were he said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map and translate it for me in context i will be far more convinced that it's true than the unknown sources I have now.
Who cares if he supports Hezbollah. Hezbollah has a right to rid their land of an Occupying Israel. Perhaps we should support them too?
(http://www.blackcommentator.com/367/367_images/367_cartoon_prevent_holocaust_bomb_iran_latuff_small.jpg)
(http://gerontios48.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/israel_pressures_us_on_iran_by_latuff2-500x5651.jpg)
(http://dontbombiran.info/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/playitagain2.jpg)
(http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2009/08/07/1239127815israeli_nukes_cartoon_DWBRR_19672.jpg)
Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2010, 02:19:16 PM
Not relevant that the Iranian leader is a lunatic, has claimed the Allah given right to annihilate Israel and actively supported Hezbollah to carry out Hezbollah's Allah given right to wipe israel of the map?
I think you need to brush up on the whole theatre of rabid politics/war in the middle east before you throw every Israel security concern into the dustbin.
[/quote]
I have been following Israeli hasbara for more than a decade following some time watching the occupation up at close hand. There is nothing rabid about the Middle East. It is all about injustice. Israeli Jews have a standard of living that is 10 times higher than that of Palestinians. They run a Jim Crow system of apartheid and their hasbara propaganda is a key part of this. You obviously are a very diligent swallower. Israel needs people like you.
On what basis can you infer that the leader of Iran is a raving lunatic? his country is bordered to the west by Iraq, a country occupied by the US and the the east by Iran, a country occupied by the US. Nuclear weapons are the only guarantee against invasion by the US.
Iran has never claimed to want to wipe Israel off the map. That is pure Israeli fiction. Ahmadin-ajad has said that the Zionist regime will disappear. I can't see it surviving the next 50 years either. The world won't tolerate apartheid run by Israel.
Hezbollah has never launched a war against Israel . If Israel hadn't attacked Lebanon in 1982 and killed over 17,000 people there would have been no Hezbollah. Without Hezbollah Israel would never have left south Lebanon.
List of countries Israel have attacked:
1. Palestine
2. Egypt
3. Jordan
4. Syria
5. Lebannon
6. Turkey
7. Iraq (by getting the US/UK to do the attacking)
8. USA (due to Challenger 1 been registered in the USA, and attacking USS Liberty. Both in International Waters)
9. Greece (due to one of the boats been registered there)
List of countries Iran have attacked in past 300 years?
NONE
Now, who are the lunatics?
Who have 300 undeclared nuclear weapons?
Who has threatened to use them?
Who has a history of attacking other countries?
Who steals other peoples land?
Who steals other countries passports?
Who carries state murders in other countries?
Who controls a mass concentration camp?
Who has given us mass graves?
Who has murdered with weapons of mass destruction?
Who pumps out Hasbara for eejits to believe?
Folks, if anyone can make it to the gates of Stormont this evening at 7pm,
there will be a protest against the Israeli Ambassador to Ireland Zion Evrony.
This is the same Ambassador who REFUSED to meet with the Irish Govt last week.
The Right Honourable Jeffrey Donaldson MP MLA
invites you to a celebration of Israel's 62nd Anniversary
The GREAT HALL, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS,
THURSDAY 10 JUNE 2010 8.00PM
SPECIAL GUESTS INCLUDE: -
His Excellency Mr Zion Evrony: Israel Ambassador to Ireland
Michael Utterback: Spokesperson for the International Christian Embassy
Sergui Pop0v : ICEJ Representative and Professional Violinist – Finland
MARIE GOUGH (guitar) and SORCHA ROSSITER (Keyboard)
SHALOM DANCE TEAM
Refreshments will be served from 7.30PM and a Buffet Supper will be served after the evening programme.
Donations to help cover expenses would be appreciated.
Cheques should be made payable to ICEJ and forwarded (along with names of those attending and car registration number) to :
ICEJ, 38 Lough Moss Park, Carryduff, Belfast BT8 8PD (RSVP before 31 May 2010)
PLEASE NOTE SPACE IS LIMITED AND ATTENDANCE CANNOT BE GUARANTEED.
Below is a bit on the ICEJ....................
Diplomacy of Love
The International Christian Embassy Jerusalem was founded in 1980 by Christians from around the world as an act of solidarity with the Jewish people's 3,000-year-old claim and connection to Jerusalem. Today the Christian Embassy represents millions of believers from over 125 countries who share a love and concern for Israel and the Jewish people. Thus the ICEJ is considered the world's largest Christian Zionist organization, with active representation in nearly 80 nations. Some 50 full-time staff serve in our Jerusalem headquarters coming from over a dozen countries and speaking many different languages. We invite you to consider us as your Embassy in Jerusalem.
Work and Witness
The Embassy's work and witness is founded on the mandate of Isaiah 40:1, "Comfort, comfort my people..." For more than 25 years the ICEJ has been reaching out in practical ways to the people of Israel, while seeking to inform, educate and inspire Christians round the world to stand against the rising tide of hostility and anti-Semitism directed against the Jewish State. Our Ministry spans four distinct areas, to Comfort Israel, Educate the Church, Celebrate God's faithfulness, and Confront anti-Semitism.
Israel is pretty desperate if it relies on the ICEJ. Far right christian fundis with very little christianity.
Quote from: seafoid on June 10, 2010, 04:16:36 PM
Israel is pretty desperate if it relies on the ICEJ. Far right christian fundis with very little christianity.
This is exactly what I meant earlierin the thread were it was claimed that the huge Jewish Lobby in America dictates their policy towards Israel. The huge Christian Majority in America support Israel too. This makes it a broad American support and placing the blame at the feet of the Jewish lobby is spin to guilt the world into supporting them too.
Isiaih 40
1 Comfort, comfort my people,
says your God
Dat is a funny looking mandate for anything although I hear Jeffrey likes his mandates.
Isiaih also said:
"Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Christains believe this prophesised the arrivall of the Messiah but it cudn't have becuase his name woz Jesus not Immanuel.
Funny how the Zionists shelter under the convenient umbrella of Judaism when seeking help and succour from Christians. At school our religious class was told that the Christian, Jewish and Muslim God was one and the same, united through Abraham. When I asked a Jew this I was told it was shite and that Christianity was gravely looked down upon by Judaism, and nothing to do with the treatment of Jews by Christians down the centuries but that it is written in the Talmud.
Anyone here remember Paisley in the late 70s and early 80s ranting and raving about the "Ulster Protestants" being one of the lost tribes of Israel?
Methinks the cornered rat analogy is not far off the mark, and that is not an inference to Goebbels, in case anyone chooses to think otherwise. I never have nor ever will deny the Holocaust.
John, if you haven't already done so, could you please post the link of the rabbi condemning the Zionists which appears on Facebook? It makes interesting viewing, and might cause one or two of the pro-Zionist/USA intelligentsia (tongue firmely in cheek, I might add) to reconsider.
There are loads of links to Rabbi's condemning Zionism.
On the previous 2 convoys, a couple of Rabbi's took part, and were warmly welcomed
by not only those on the convoy, but in Gaza itself.
Here are a few links for Rabbi's against Zionism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glBoTJZFraM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82g8BsxgeD0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWRX_OFOV08
There has been unrest in this region for thousands of years. Samson pulled the pillars down (allegedly)around the Philistines in Gaza. Jews and Arabs have been disputing territory and killing each other from long before the Americans or British got involved. Yet read this thread and you'd think the trouble all started with a flotilla of boats or with the blockade of the Gaza strip. It's like someone deciding that the Irish troubles started in 1969.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 10, 2010, 08:11:47 PM
There has been unrest in this region for thousands of years. Samson pulled the pillars down (allegedly)around the Philistines in Gaza. Jews and Arabs have been disputing territory and killing each other from long before the Americans or British got involved. Yet read this thread and you'd think the trouble all started with a flotilla of boats or with the blockade of the Gaza strip. It's like someone deciding that the Irish troubles started in 1969.
Samson didn't have nukes or F16s.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 10, 2010, 08:11:47 PM
There has been unrest in this region for thousands of years. Samson pulled the pillars down (allegedly)around the Philistines in Gaza. Jews and Arabs have been disputing territory and killing each other from long before the Americans or British got involved. Yet read this thread and you'd think the trouble all started with a flotilla of boats or with the blockade of the Gaza strip. It's like someone deciding that the Irish troubles started in 1969.
Yeah that is strange alright, people commenting on what is actually happening now as opposed to 3,000 years ago. ::)
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 10, 2010, 08:11:47 PM
There has been unrest in this region for thousands of years. Samson pulled the pillars down (allegedly)around the Philistines in Gaza. Jews and Arabs have been disputing territory and killing each other from long before the Americans or British got involved. Yet read this thread and you'd think the trouble all started with a flotilla of boats or with the blockade of the Gaza strip. It's like someone deciding that the Irish troubles started in 1969.
The Arabs and the few Jews that lived there lived in relative peace with the Brits as their common enemy. It wasn't untill Zionism got popular (within Judaism and elsewhere) after WWII that the trouble started.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 10, 2010, 08:11:47 PM
It's like someone deciding that the Irish troubles started in 1969.
Aye, the
Irish Troubles. Why don't we take the onus off the chief protagonist again! And when we're at it let's confirm that it was an
Irish Potato Famine, and not the British Government-sponsored genocide that it actually was.
Muslims, Jews and Christians have lived in relative peace in the region for many centuries. My mate's mother was babysat by her Jewish neighbours when she was a wane; Muslims, Jews and Christians even intermarried in the region too. As muppet quite rightly said, there's a helluva difference between a bow and arrow and a nuke.
Go read your history books, lads. There has never been peace in that region. It has been fought over and ruled and fought over again by the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Roman and Byzantine Empires, the Islamic and Christian crusaders, the Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire. Can't blame it all on the big bad Yanks. And do you really think Ireland was a land of peace and harmony before the arrival of the big bad Brits?
It's like history through the eyes of 4 year old on here sometimes.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 11, 2010, 07:33:34 AM
Go read your history books, lads. There has never been peace in that region. It has been fought over and ruled and fought over again by the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Roman and Byzantine Empires, the Islamic and Christian crusaders, the Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire. Can't blame it all on the big bad Yanks. And do you really think Ireland was a land of peace and harmony before the arrival of the big bad Brits?
It's like history through the eyes of 4 year old on here sometimes.
That's a few times now I've been asked to read some books. There's no request as rediculous when it comes to isues like this. Perhaps we read different books ???
There is nothing unique about historical conflict in the region that lends wieght to todays conflict. You can't ignore the international aspect to to todays conflict and blame it on the water in Palestine.
EXCLUSIVE: New Video Smuggled Out from Mavi Marmara of Israel's Deadly Assault on Gaza Aid Flotilla
In a Democracy Now! exclusive, we bring you a sneak preview of previously unseen raw footage from the Mavi Marmara that will be formally released at a press conference at the United Nations later in the day. The footage shows the mood and the activities onboard the Mavi Marmara in the time leading up to the attack, and the immediate reaction of the passengers during the attack. We are joined by filmmaker and activist Iara Lee, one of the few Americans on the Mavi Marmara ship. Her equipment was confiscated, but she managed to smuggle out an hour's worth of footage. [includes rush transcript]
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/10/exclusive_journalist_smuggles_out_video_of
Click on the following link to watch 15 minutes of footage that had been filmed onboard the Mavi Mamara,
and then smuggled out.
http://vimeo.com/12429821
Well, it seems we posted at the same time......................
The 1st link is the interview, and some footage, and the 2nd link is 15 minutes of raw footage.
Both good links to watch in order to get a sense of what really happened.
QuoteAye, the Irish Troubles. Why don't we take the onus off the chief protagonist again! And when we're at it let's confirm that it was an Irish Potato Famine, and not the British Government-sponsored genocide that it actually was.
Well pointed out. To simply say there was a Famine in Ireland is rubbish. There was mountains of food exported from every county to the UK by the landlords.
Quote from: under the bar on June 11, 2010, 01:04:59 PM
QuoteAye, the Irish Troubles. Why don't we take the onus off the chief protagonist again! And when we're at it let's confirm that it was an Irish Potato Famine, and not the British Government-sponsored genocide that it actually was.
Well pointed out. To simply say there was a Famine in Ireland is rubbish. There was mountains of food exported from every county to the UK by the landlords.
Not them again?
Quote from: under the bar on June 11, 2010, 01:04:59 PM
QuoteAye, the Irish Troubles. Why don't we take the onus off the chief protagonist again! And when we're at it let's confirm that it was an Irish Potato Famine, and not the British Government-sponsored genocide that it actually was.
Well pointed out. To simply say there was a Famine in Ireland is rubbish. There was mountains of food exported from every county to the UK by the landlords.
Grain exports and imports 1844-48 (in thousands of tons)
Exports Imports Net Export
------- ------- ----------
1844 424 30 +394
1845 513 28 +485
1846 284 197 +87
1847 146 889 -743
1848 314 439 -125
It wasn't all one way traffic.
On a side note, the famine didn't stop guiness exporting over a quarter of a million gallons and this was back in the day when beer was viewed as liquid bread, i find it strange that this didn't seem to damage the image of guiness as irelands national drink, just imagine how many people could have been fed on the barley it took to make it. Also the family were part of the ruling protestant elite and pro-union, irish people are famously good at holding a grudge its amazing they didn't seem to hold it against guinness.
Quote from: give her dixie on June 10, 2010, 04:04:49 PM
The Right Honourable Jeffrey Donaldson MP MLA
invites you to a celebration of Israel's 62nd Anniversary
The GREAT HALL, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS,
THURSDAY 10 JUNE 2010 8.00PM
SPECIAL GUESTS INCLUDE: -
His Excellency Mr Zion Evrony: Israel Ambassador to Ireland
Michael Utterback: Spokesperson for the International Christian Embassy
Sergui Pop0v : ICEJ Representative and Professional Violinist – Finland
MARIE GOUGH (guitar) and SORCHA ROSSITER (Keyboard)
SHALOM DANCE TEAM
Am absolutely appalled, disgusted and quite frankly embarassed about this. A party thrown in their honor?
They kill ten people, and while the majority of the western world condems the act, a NI MLA throws them a party.
Oh wait hang on, because I am not "understanding" why they committed this act, does that mean that I am anti-semitic too?
Quote from: under the bar on June 11, 2010, 01:04:59 PM
QuoteAye, the Irish Troubles. Why don't we take the onus off the chief protagonist again! And when we're at it let's confirm that it was an Irish Potato Famine, and not the British Government-sponsored genocide that it actually was.
Well pointed out. To simply say there was a Famine in Ireland is rubbish. There was mountains of food exported from every county to the UK by the landlords.
"They are going. They are going with a vengeance. Soon a Celt will be as rare in Ireland as a Red Indian on the streets of Manhattan. Law has ridden through, it has been taught with bayonets, and interpreted with ruin. Townships levelled to the ground, straggling columns of exiles, workhouses multiplied, and still crowded, express the determination of the Legislature to rescue Ireland from its slovenly old barbarism, and to plant there the institutions of this more civilised land."
Extract from the London Times 1847
Quote from: muppet on June 10, 2010, 10:31:52 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 10, 2010, 08:11:47 PMok
There has been unrest in this region for thousands of years. Samson pulled the pillars down (allegedly)around the Philistines in Gaza. Jews and Arabs have been disputing territory and killing each other from long before the Americans or British got involved. Yet read this thread and you'd think the trouble all started with a flotilla of boats or with the blockade of the Gaza strip. It's like someone deciding that the Irish troubles started in 1969.
Samson didn't have nukes or F16s.
Yes and that was the exact point he was making,
They were still at it, right?
Thanks for unintentionally clearing that up
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 10, 2010, 10:31:52 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 10, 2010, 08:11:47 PMok
There has been unrest in this region for thousands of years. Samson pulled the pillars down (allegedly)around the Philistines in Gaza. Jews and Arabs have been disputing territory and killing each other from long before the Americans or British got involved. Yet read this thread and you'd think the trouble all started with a flotilla of boats or with the blockade of the Gaza strip. It's like someone deciding that the Irish troubles started in 1969.
Samson didn't have nukes or F16s.
Yes and that was the exact point he was making,
They were still at it, right?
Thanks for unintentionally clearing that up
Wrong.
Wrong.
And...wait for it....wrong.
As usual.
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 10, 2010, 10:31:52 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 10, 2010, 08:11:47 PMok
There has been unrest in this region for thousands of years. Samson pulled the pillars down (allegedly)around the Philistines in Gaza. Jews and Arabs have been disputing territory and killing each other from long before the Americans or British got involved. Yet read this thread and you'd think the trouble all started with a flotilla of boats or with the blockade of the Gaza strip. It's like someone deciding that the Irish troubles started in 1969.
Samson didn't have nukes or F16s.
Yes and that was the exact point he was making,
They were still at it, right?
Thanks for unintentionally clearing that up
29 pages and still nothing to say...
Quote from: give her dixie on June 09, 2010, 09:05:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT5823U5YLc
Footage of the 19 year old US citizen getting kicked , and then executed.
Trying to remember here if you were as quick to post
the You Tube link to the 17 Yr old student shot dead
during the elections in Iran by Amidinejad's Hench men.
No you see Your humanitarian ::) efforts only seem to come
in to play when it complies with the agenda of putting the boot
in to the US at every opportunity!
Myles hit the Nail on the head with the fact that the middle East
Has been a hotbed of hatred long long before the US even existed
but true to form, drag his point all over the place rather than confront it :-X
Quote from: muppet on June 11, 2010, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 10, 2010, 10:31:52 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 10, 2010, 08:11:47 PMok
There has been unrest in this region for thousands of years. Samson pulled the pillars down (allegedly)around the Philistines in Gaza. Jews and Arabs have been disputing territory and killing each other from long before the Americans or British got involved. Yet read this thread and you'd think the trouble all started with a flotilla of boats or with the blockade of the Gaza strip. It's like someone deciding that the Irish troubles started in 1969.
Samson didn't have nukes or F16s.
Yes and that was the exact point he was making,
They were still at it, right?
Thanks for unintentionally clearing that up
Wrong.
Wrong.
And...wait for it....wrong.
As usual.
Not much more than I expected out of you but how exactly
is it wrong?
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 03:50:42 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 09, 2010, 09:05:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT5823U5YLc
Footage of the 19 year old US citizen getting kicked , and then executed.
Trying to remember here if you were as quick to post
the You Tube link to the 17 Yr old student shot dead
during the elections in Iran by Amidinejad's Hench men.
No you see Your humanitarian ::) efforts only seem to come
in to play when it complies with the agenda of putting the boot
in to the US at every opportunity!
Myles hit the Nail on the head with the fact that the middle East
Has been a hotbed of hatred long long before the US even existed
but true to form, drag his point all over the place rather than confront it :-X
If it has been a hotbed of conflict, why the need for the US to arm one side to a level centuries ahead of the other? Why didn't they simply leave it as it was? I have little doubt that if Israel was the abused underdog most of the posters here, including me, would be rooting for them.
As for humanitarian agendas, is it not better to feed those suffering in poverty and deprivation who have no one to stand up for them, rather than the rich who are well able to look after themselves?
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 03:58:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 11, 2010, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 10, 2010, 10:31:52 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 10, 2010, 08:11:47 PMok
There has been unrest in this region for thousands of years. Samson pulled the pillars down (allegedly)around the Philistines in Gaza. Jews and Arabs have been disputing territory and killing each other from long before the Americans or British got involved. Yet read this thread and you'd think the trouble all started with a flotilla of boats or with the blockade of the Gaza strip. It's like someone deciding that the Irish troubles started in 1969.
Samson didn't have nukes or F16s.
Yes and that was the exact point he was making,
They were still at it, right?
Thanks for unintentionally clearing that up
Wrong.
Wrong.
And...wait for it....wrong.
As usual.
Not much more than I expected out of you but how exactly
is it wrong?
30 pages and still nothing to say....
Very simple realy, they needed an ally in the region and found it in Israel and needless to say they'll do what they can to keep them from being wiped off
the face of the earth.
As for humanitarian efforts....there's strife and oppression the world over but most
gets little airtime on here because it doesn't fit the agenda of blaming
the US for all the world's woes.
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 04:31:35 PM
Very simple realy, they needed an ally in the region and found it in Israel and needless to say they'll do what they can to keep them from being wiped off
the face of the earth.
As for humanitarian efforts....there's strife and oppression the world over but most
gets little airtime on here because it doesn't fit the agenda of blaming
the US for all the world's woes.
Ireland doesn't have an 'ally in the region' but then we don't get 'blamed for all of the world's woes'. That could only happen if we stuck our noses and our nukes into 'all of world'. Goes with the territory.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 11, 2010, 08:13:21 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 11, 2010, 07:33:34 AM
Go read your history books, lads. There has never been peace in that region. It has been fought over and ruled and fought over again by the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Roman and Byzantine Empires, the Islamic and Christian crusaders, the Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire. Can't blame it all on the big bad Yanks. And do you really think Ireland was a land of peace and harmony before the arrival of the big bad Brits?
It's like history through the eyes of 4 year old on here sometimes.
That's a few times now I've been asked to read some books. There's no request as rediculous when it comes to isues like this. Perhaps we read different books ???
There is nothing unique about historical conflict in the region that lends wieght to todays conflict. You can't ignore the international aspect to to todays conflict and blame it on the water in Palestine.
Neither can you blame today's conflict on the Americans and British, while ignoring the fact that the same issues were being fought over thousands of years ago. I'm not saying that today's superpowers haven't exacerbated the problems, but it's simplistic to think that if the Americans would only back off, the people of the area would settle down and live as good neighbours. The same reasoning holds that if the British govt would just announce its intention to quit the north, there'd be a huge party and we'd have a 32 county state in the morning.
Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?
Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.
[Mod edit - Unnecessary]
Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way ???
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not :-\
All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 06:05:11 PM
Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?
Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.
Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way ???
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not :-\
All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!
You whinge about people blaming the US for the world's woes yet ignore a simple comparison.
Ireland - no bases all over the world and no dodgy allies to defend.
USA - many bases all over the world and many dodgy allies to defend including Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden at one stage.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 11, 2010, 06:00:00 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 11, 2010, 08:13:21 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 11, 2010, 07:33:34 AM
Go read your history books, lads. There has never been peace in that region. It has been fought over and ruled and fought over again by the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Roman and Byzantine Empires, the Islamic and Christian crusaders, the Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire. Can't blame it all on the big bad Yanks. And do you really think Ireland was a land of peace and harmony before the arrival of the big bad Brits?
It's like history through the eyes of 4 year old on here sometimes.
That's a few times now I've been asked to read some books. There's no request as rediculous when it comes to isues like this. Perhaps we read different books ???
There is nothing unique about historical conflict in the region that lends wieght to todays conflict. You can't ignore the international aspect to to todays conflict and blame it on the water in Palestine.
Neither can you blame today's conflict on the Americans and British, while ignoring the fact that the same issues were being fought over thousands of years ago. I'm not saying that today's superpowers haven't exacerbated the problems, but it's simplistic to think that if the Americans would only back off, the people of the area would settle down and live as good neighbours. The same reasoning holds that if the British govt would just announce its intention to quit the north, there'd be a huge party and we'd have a 32 county state in the morning.
The fact that the people were fighting in this region, like in every corner of the planet, down through the ages is irrelevant, a problem exists in the region now.
Britain helped create the problem but is largely irrelevant now. It is the United States' unwavering support of the Israeli government that is the problem. The US could force Israel to make peace with its neighbours tomorrow if it wanted but it obviously isn't in the interests of those who decide on US foreign policy.
Quote from: muppet on June 11, 2010, 06:13:46 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 06:05:11 PM
Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?
Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.
Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way ???
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not :-\
All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!
You whinge about people blaming the US for the world's woes yet ignore a simple comparison.
Ireland - no bases all over the world and no dodgy allies to defend.
USA - many bases all over the world and many dodgy allies to defend including Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden at one stage.
**Shakes head** That square peg isn't going in to the round hole no matter how many times you bate it!
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 09:26:40 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 11, 2010, 06:13:46 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 06:05:11 PM
Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?
Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.
Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way ???
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not :-\
All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!
You whinge about people blaming the US for the world's woes yet ignore a simple comparison.
Ireland - no bases all over the world and no dodgy allies to defend.
USA - many bases all over the world and many dodgy allies to defend including Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden at one stage.
**Shakes head** That square peg isn't going in to the round hole no matter how many times you bate it!
You are the one who said the USA needed an ally in the region. Please explain why and how they chose which side to take given, as you pointed out, that there has always been conflict there? Please include Bin Laden and Hussein in your answer.
Quote from: muppet on June 11, 2010, 09:43:14 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 09:26:40 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 11, 2010, 06:13:46 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 06:05:11 PM
Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?
Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.
Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way ???
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not :-\
All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!
You whinge about people blaming the US for the world's woes yet ignore a simple comparison.
Ireland - no bases all over the world and no dodgy allies to defend.
USA - many bases all over the world and many dodgy allies to defend including Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden at one stage.
**Shakes head** That square peg isn't going in to the round hole no matter how many times you bate it!
You are the one who said the USA needed an ally in the region. Please explain why and how they chose which side to take given, as you pointed out, that there has always been conflict there? Please include Bin Laden and Hussein in your answer.
Why bother argue with this clown. He obviously hasn't the smarts to understand what is going on. The US has lots of allies in the region. They used to have the Shah in Iran who abused his power, kidnapped his opponents and made people disappear. A popular rising by the people led to an islamic state (which was a brutal wipe out of all the remnants of the shahs regime). Fearing the Islamic rising the US made friends with another brutal dictator in Sadam, armed him, helped him make chemical weapons and sold him weapons. Of course when Sadam lost the run of himself and decided to invade another US ally in undemocratic Kuwait and threatened yet another ally in undemocratic Saudi. They also have undemocratic Egypt too. The US will be buddies with anyone who will keep the oil flowing no matter how badly they trample on the people they supposedly represent.
Sorry for coming back to this so late, I was actually really concerned that I was making Tyrones Own sick.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/260107offthemap.htm
The "Wipe Israel Off The Map" Hoax
What Ahmadinejad really said and why this broken record is just another ad slogan for war
Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Friday, January 26, 2007
Barely a day goes by that one can avoid reading or hearing yet another Israeli, American or British warhawk regurgitate the broken record that Iran's President Ahmadinejad threatened to "wipe Israel off the map," framed in the ridiculous context that Israelis are being targeted for a second holocaust. This baseless rallying call for conflict holds about as much credibility as Dick Cheney's assertion that Saddam Hussein was planning to light up American skies with mushroom clouds.
Today it's the turn of would-be future British Prime Minister David Cameron, leader of the Conservative Party, who repeated the "wipe Israel off he map" fraud in a speech at the World Economic Forum in Davos, using it to qualify his refusal to rule out a military strike on Iran under a Tory government.
Did Ahmadinejad really threaten to "wipe Israel off the map" or is this phrase just another jingoistic brand slogan for selling the next war in the Middle East?
The devil is in the detail, wiping Israel off the map suggests a physical genocidal assault, a literal population relocation or elimination akin to what the Nazis did. According to numerous different translations, Ahmadinejad never used the word "map," instead his statement was in the context of time and applied to the Zionist regime occupying Jerusalem. Ahmadinejad was expressing his future hope that the Zionist regime in Israel would fall, not that Iran was going to physically annex the country and its population.
To claim Ahmadinejad has issued a rallying cry to ethnically cleanse Israel is akin to saying that Churchill wanted to murder all Germans when he stated his desire to crush the Nazis. This is about the demise of a corrupt occupying power, not the deaths of millions of innocent people.
The Guardian's Jonathan Steele cites four different translations, from professors to the BBC to the New York Times and even pro-Israel news outlets, in none of those translations is the word "map" used. The closest translation to what the Iranian President actually said is, "The regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time," or a narrow relative thereof. In no version is the word "map" used or a context of mass genocide or hostile military action even hinted at.
The acceptance of the word "map" seemingly originated with the New York Times, who later had to back away from this false translation. The BBC also wrongly used the word and, in comments to Steele, later accepted their mistake but refused to issue a retraction.
"The fact that he compared his desired option - the elimination of "the regime occupying Jerusalem" - with the fall of the Shah's regime in Iran makes it crystal clear that he is talking about regime change, not the end of Israel. As a schoolboy opponent of the Shah in the 1970's he surely did not favor Iran's removal from the page of time. He just wanted the Shah out," writes Steele.
"It's important to note that the "quote" in question was itself a quote, writes Arash Norouzi, "they are the words of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the father of the Islamic Revolution. Although he quoted Khomeini to affirm his own position on Zionism, the actual words belong to Khomeini and not Ahmadinejad. Thus, Ahmadinejad has essentially been credited (or blamed) for a quote that is not only unoriginal, but represents a viewpoint already in place well before he ever took office."
Professor Juan Cole concurs, arguing, "Now, some might say, "So he didn't say, 'wipe off the map,' he said 'erase from the page.' What's the difference? Anyway he's saying he wants to get rid of Israel. Ahmadinejad was not making a threat, he was quoting a saying of Khomeini and urging that pro-Palestinian activists in Iran not give up hope -- that the occupation of Jerusalem was no more a continued inevitability than had been the hegemony of the Shah's government. Whatever this quotation from a decades-old speech of Khomeini may have meant, Ahmadinejad did not say that 'Israel must be wiped off the map' with the implication that phrase has of Nazi-style extermination of a people. He said that the occupation regime over Jerusalem must be erased from the page of time."
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Let's consider for a moment that Ahmadinejad really does wish to initiate a nuclear war on Israel, is this feasible? It would be like Paris Hilton picking a fight with Mike Tyson. The CIA's own estimates put Iran five to ten years away from being able to produce one nuclear bomb even if they were in the planning stages now, which is highly unlikely given that international inspectors have found no evidence of such a program and CIA satellite imagery also shows no proof of nuclear arms. Contrast this to an Israeli arsenal of anything up to 200 launch ready nukes allied to the might of the U.S. which has nearly 6,000 active warheads not to mention so-called "mini-nukes."
While it can be reasonably argued that Iran is seeking a nuclear weapon at some point in the future, to then claim that this means Ahmadinejad wishes to enact a second holocaust is an unfathomable leap of logic. The real reason for any nation in that region trying to acquire a nuclear weapon is for self defense, because they are surrounded by other hostile powers that already have the bomb.
Returning to the "wipe Israel off the map hoax," loathe are we to forget another of the commercial jingles concocted for hoodwinking Americans into attacking a certain other Middle Eastern country - "he used weapons of mass destruction against his own people," referring of course to Saddam Hussein's alleged role in the Halabja massacre where Iraqi Kurds were gassed. In reality, as former CIA analyst Stephen Pelletiere has revealed, Halabja came as a result of a battlefield exchange between the Iranians and the Iraqis after the Kurds had sided with the Iranians and allowed them to enter the city. According to the DIA's own report at the time, the type of gas that killed the Kurds was not used by the Iraqis but was used by the Iranians. The incident was a tragedy of war, not a directed program of genocide at the behest of Saddam Hussein.
Whenever Bush administration officials and others used Halabja as a pretext for war, the mass media routinely failed to mention the DIA report, just as they have failed to provide any balance on the real meaning of Ahmadinejad's statement, despite the fact that it is completely distorted almost every day and used as a call to arms as well as a propagandistic ploy to convince western populations that dark skinned invaders are hell-bent on their wholesale destruction.
Also, see here for how propaganda works lads and maybe next time give a little thought to the agenda of those you decide to believe..
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm
Surely a horrible axis of evil like Iran would not tolerate a jew about the place given they want to wipe them from the map... Think again...
From a Sephardic Jew website (jews who originated in the iberian peninsula)
http://www.sephardicstudies.org/iran.html
TEHRAN - The Jewish women in the back rows of the synagogue wear long garments in the traditional Iranian style, but instead of chadors, their heads are covered with cheerful, flowered scarves. The boys in their skullcaps, with Hebrew prayer books tucked under their arms, scamper down the aisles to grab the best spots near the lush, turquoise Persian carpet of the altar. This is Friday night, Shabbat - Iranian style, and the synagogue in an affluent neighborhood of North Tehran is filled to capacity with more than 400 worshipers.
It is one of the many paradoxes of the Islamic Republic of Iran that this most virulent anti-Israeli country supports by far the largest Jewish population of any Muslim country.
While Jewish communities in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Morocco and Algeria have all but vanished, Iran is home to 25,000 - some here say 35,000 - Jews. The Jewish population is less than half the number that lived here before the Islamic revolution of 1979. But the Jews have tried to compensate for their diminishing numbers by adopting a new religious fervor.
''The funny thing is that before the Islamic revolution, you would see maybe 20 old men in the synagogue,'' whispers Nahit Eliyason, 48, as she climbs over four other women to find one of the few vacant seats. ''Now the place is full. You can barely find a seat.'' Parvis Yashaya, a film producer who heads Tehran's Jewish community, adds: ''We are smaller, but we are stronger in some ways.''
Tehran has 11 functioning synagogues, many of them with Hebrew schools. It has two kosher restaurants, and a Jewish hospital, an old-age home and a cemetery. There is a Jewish representative in the Iranian parliament. There is a Jewish library with 20,000 titles, its reading room decorated with a photograph of the Ayatollah Khomeini.
Khomeini protection
Iran's Jewish community is confronted by contradictions. Many of the prayers uttered in synagogue, for instance, refer to the desire to see Jerusalem again. Yet there is no postal service or telephone contact with Israel, and any Iranian who dares travel to Israel faces imprisonment and passport confiscation. ''We are Jews, not Zionists. We are a religious community, not a political one,'' Yashaya said.
Before the revolution, Jews were well-represented among Iran's business elite, holding key posts in the oil industry, banking and law, as well as in the traditional bazaar. The wave of anti-Israeli sentiment that swept Iran during the revolution, as well as large-scale confiscations of private wealth, sent thousands of the more affluent Jews fleeing to the United States or Israel. Those remaining lived in fear of pogroms, or massacres.
But Khomeini met with the Jewish community upon his return from exile in Paris and issued a ''fatwa'' decreeing that the Jews were to be protected. Similar edicts also protect Iran's tiny Christian minority.
Just as it radically transformed Muslim society, the revolution changed the Jews. Families that had been secular in the 1970s started keeping kosher and strictly observing rules against driving on Shabbat. They stopped going to restaurants, cafes and cinemas - many such establishments were closed down - and the synagogue perforce became the focal point of their social lives.
Jewish school in Shiraz
Iranian Jews say they socialize far less with Muslims now than before the revolution. As a whole, they occupy their own separate space within the rigid confines of the Islamic republic, a protected yet precarious niche.
Jewish women, like Muslim women, are required by law to keep their heads covered, although most eschew the chador for a simple scarf. But Jews, unlike Muslims, can keep small flasks of home-brewed wine or arrack to drink within the privacy of their homes - in theory, for religious purposes. Some Hebrew schools are coed, and men and women dance with each other at weddings, practices strictly forbidden for Muslims.
''Sometimes I think they are kinder to the Jews than they are to themselves. ... If we are gathered in a house, and the family is having a ceremony with wine or the music is playing too loud, if they find out we are Jews, they don't bother us so much,'' Eliyason said.
''Everywhere in the world there are people who don't like Jews. In England, they draw swastikas on Jewish graves. I don't think that Iran is more dangerous for Jews than other places.''
Some problems exist
Testimony from Jews who have left Iran suggests more serious problems than those cited by Jews inside the country. In written testimony to a congressional subcommittee in February 1996, an Iranian Jew complained of being imprisoned for two years on trumped-up charges of spying for Israel. He also said his arrest was preceded by harassment at work and pressure to convert to Islam. Inside Iran, Jews say that they frequently receive alarmed telephone calls and letters from relatives in the United States concerned about their well-being, but that they themselves do not feel physically endangered. Their major complaint is the inability to visit family in Israel, and what they say is inadequate funding for Hebrew schools, which are administered by the Iranian Ministry of Education.
Although many Jews hold jobs in government ministries or within state-owned firms, they say they are unlikely to rise to top positions. In addition, Iran's strict Islamic law, or ''sharia,'' contains many discriminatory provisions toward non-Muslims.
Jews 'part of Iran'
Still, Jewish leaders say their community has far stronger roots in Iran than other Middle East Jewish communities, which were virtually eradicated by massive immigration to Israel in the 1940s and 1950s. Esther, the biblical Jewish queen who saved her people from persecution in the fifth century B.C., is reputed to be buried in Hamadan, in western Iran. The grave of the Old Testament prophet Daniel lies in southwestern Iran.
''We are different from the Jews of the diaspora. You see the name 'Persia' in the Old Testament almost as often as the name 'Israel.' The Iranian Jews are very much part of Iran,'' said Gad Naim, 60, who runs the old-age home in Tehran. Iranian Jews trace their history to the reign of Persia's King Cyrus. As the Bible tells it, Cyrus conquered Babylonia in 539 B.C., liberated the Jews from captivity, and raised funds for the rebuilding of their destroyed temple in Jerusalem. The return of the Jews to Jerusalem at that time was accompanied by a large migration to the lands that were then Persia, and now Iran.
In Esfahan, an Iranian city fabled for its intricate Persian tile work, the first Persian Jews were settled under the reign of Cyrus. The ancient city was once known as Dar-Al-Yahud (''House of the Jews'' in Farsi), and as late as the 19th century it was the home of 100,000 Jews, according to Elias Haronian, head of Esfahan's Jewish community.
Today, the city is a repository of Jewish lore. It has a cemetery with Jewish graves 2,000 years old, stunning synagogues and Jewish mausoleums with tiles to rival those of the mosques - but a population of only 1,500 Jews.
What happened to the Jews?
Some converted centuries ago. Indeed, in Muslim villages surrounding Esfahan, a distinctive Jewish dialect of Farsi is spoken, and Muslims still follow certain Jewish rituals, such as lighting candles on Fridays. Others left for Tehran, or for California or New York. Some went to Israel.
''It is not that life is so difficult for us, but a minority is a minority... We are like a glass of water in the sea,'' Haronian said. Haronian, a petroleum engineer, worries less about persecution than about the faltering Iranian economy, the lack of job opportunities for his four children, and the shortage of suitable Jewish spouses. ''There are very few Jewish boys here. There are so few of us,'' said his 17-year-old daughter, Shirin. At Esfahan's Hebrew school, students confided that they are deeply torn between a love of their homeland and a desire to escape from the stifling isolation of Iran.
The decision to stay or go may rest largely on Mohammad Khatami, a relatively progressive cleric who won a landslide election May 23 as the next president of Iran. Although he is virulently anti-Israel in his public comments, Khatami was considered sympathetic to the Jews during his term as Iran's minister of culture and Islamic guidance. He paid a campaign visit to a social club for Jewish women in Tehran. ''We expect more freedom, an easier life, not just for Jews, for everybody,'' said Farangis Hassidim, an administrator of Tehran's Jewish hospital.
Not everyone in the Jewish community favors liberalization of Iranian society. Arizel Levihim, 20, a prospective Hebrew teacher, said Judaism has fared better within the confines of Iran's strictly religious society. ''I believe it is good for women to keep their head covered. I think it is good to restrict relations between boys and girls,'' Levihim said. ''I agree with the ideals of the Islamic republic. These are Jewish values too."
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 11, 2010, 06:00:00 PM
Neither can you blame today's conflict on the Americans and British, while ignoring the fact that the same issues were being fought over thousands of years ago. I'm not saying that today's superpowers haven't exacerbated the problems, but it's simplistic to think that if the Americans would only back off, the people of the area would settle down and live as good neighbours. The same reasoning holds that if the British govt would just announce its intention to quit the north, there'd be a huge party and we'd have a 32 county state in the morning.
You are either delusional or you haven't read any of my comments and are posting responces at random.
These Issues were not being fought over 1000s of years ago. Palestine, Israel, Iran the US etc didn't exist as states 1000s of years ago. Islam didn't exist 1000s of years ago. Oil (as we have become dependant on it) wasn't an issue Nuclear weapons did not exist. Zionism did not exist and the Holocaust hadn't happened. Unless you read otherwise in a book somewhere ::)
No one is asking the Americans to back off. They are being asked to exercise their influence to stop the genocide. They can't avoid their responsibility. The comment about the Brits and the north is just gibberish.
TO you obviously have a problem with Dixie.....maybe he spurned your advances at the Chestnut Lodge :D
Are you suggesting that by not being on the flotilla that he knew that people were going to be killed?
This is a pathetic attempt from a Sarah Palin cheerleader :-[
Why don't you get down to your local army recruitment office and sign up, come on over here and sort the whole thing out....after all you know it all ::)
Quote from: Zapatista on June 12, 2010, 07:18:38 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 11, 2010, 06:00:00 PM
Neither can you blame today's conflict on the Americans and British, while ignoring the fact that the same issues were being fought over thousands of years ago. I'm not saying that today's superpowers haven't exacerbated the problems, but it's simplistic to think that if the Americans would only back off, the people of the area would settle down and live as good neighbours. The same reasoning holds that if the British govt would just announce its intention to quit the north, there'd be a huge party and we'd have a 32 county state in the morning.
You are either delusional or you haven't read any of my comments and are posting responces at random.
These Issues were not being fought over 1000s of years ago. Palestine, Israel, Iran the US etc didn't exist as states 1000s of years ago. Islam didn't exist 1000s of years ago. Oil (as we have become dependant on it) wasn't an issue Nuclear weapons did not exist. Zionism did not exist and the Holocaust hadn't happened. Unless you read otherwise in a book somewhere ::)
No one is asking the Americans to back off. They are being asked to exercise their influence to stop the genocide. They can't avoid their responsibility. The comment about the Brits and the north is just gibberish.
The Jewish and Arab peoples existed and they fought over territory. What's changed? Names of states, different superpowers sticking their oar in to advance their own interests, better weaponry. So, fcuk all really.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 12, 2010, 10:45:05 AM
The Jewish and Arab peoples existed and they fought over territory. What's changed? Names of states, different superpowers sticking their oar in to advance their own interests, better weaponry. So, fcuk all really.
That's madness. Europe has been the same for 1000s of years. Does that mean we should pass no remarks if the Spanish blockade Portugal? YOu have no point to make.
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 06:05:11 PM
Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?
Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.
Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way ???
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not :-\
All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!
I dont understand how anyone that has an Irish flag as their avatar and days before a report on bloody sunday is published can come out with that nonsense.
And your comment on John is just a sc**bag comment, something like you'd get from 5ivetimes, I thought you were a lot better than that TO
Folks, all the best for now, as there is no way i'm going to participate one minute longer on this board as long as a sc**bag with an Irish flag, and the word Tyrone beside it continues to personally attack me.
The moderators are not interested in moderating, so what is the point in continuing.
Good luck all.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on June 12, 2010, 11:22:39 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 11, 2010, 06:05:11 PM
Comparing Ireland with the US now on the worlds stage... Really Muppet?
Now back to the crux of this thread and how it was never anything
other than a political stunt... Those ships were never getting through
and the powers that be who organized it knew full well the outcome.
Should these organizers maybe be tried for the deaths of those killed for intentionally
taking them into harms way ???
then again no, sure the evidence is there in terms of the videos of the soon to be Martyrs
welcoming their fate so maybe not :-\
All the heavily edited propaganda you tube videos can't cover the cracks in all of this
but no doubt you'll keep hammering away!!
I dont understand how anyone that has an Irish flag as their avatar and days before a report on bloody sunday is published can come out with that nonsense.
And your comment on John is just a sc**bag comment, something like you'd get from 5ivetimes, I thought you were a lot better than that TO
What does the Bloody Sunday report have to with Israel and Palestine. Oh, right. For Big Bad Israel read Big Bad Brits. For poor oppressed Palestinians, read poor oppressed Irish, 800 years of struggle, blah, blah blah. Your post sums up the level of this debate. Blinkered, simplistic nonsense.
I wasn't responding to you nor have I any interest in engaging with you. Thank you.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on June 12, 2010, 12:35:55 PM
I wasn't responding to you nor have I any interest in engaging with you. Thank you.
:D :D :D
I wanted to put this somewhere; here will do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC4N5wkp2Ug
Quote from: Hardy on June 12, 2010, 12:55:12 PM
I wanted to put this somewhere; here will do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC4N5wkp2Ug
:D :D
Quote from: give her dixie on June 12, 2010, 11:38:32 AM
Folks, all the best for now, as there is no way I'm going to participate one minute longer on this board as long as a sc**bag with an Irish flag, and the word Tyrone beside it continues to personally attack me.
The moderators are not interested in moderating, so what is the point in continuing.
Good luck all.
See ya !!! This thread had nothing at all to do with aid to Gaza and everything to do with channeling hate for Israel
and so while you efforts are hate based you can expect to be called on it.
And as for the Moderators not doing their job, please quote the rule that you believe they're over looking here
Now if I called you a scum**g you might then be on to something and have reason to whine about the Mods ::)
Quote from: Hardy on June 12, 2010, 12:55:12 PM
I wanted to put this somewhere; here will do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC4N5wkp2Ug
:D :D
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 12, 2010, 04:28:48 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 12, 2010, 11:38:32 AM
Folks, all the best for now, as there is no way I'm going to participate one minute longer on this board as long as a sc**bag with an Irish flag, and the word Tyrone beside it continues to personally attack me.
The moderators are not interested in moderating, so what is the point in continuing.
Good luck all.
See ya !!! This thread had nothing at all to do with aid to Gaza and everything to do with channeling hate for Israel
and so while you efforts are hate based you can expect to be called on it.
And as for the Moderators not doing their job, please quote the rule that you believe they're over looking here
Now if I called you a scum**g you might then be on to something and have reason to whine about the Mods ::)
You have proven to everybody on this board that you are a sc**bag with your comments in your previous post. There is no getting away from that.
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on June 12, 2010, 05:09:47 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 12, 2010, 04:28:48 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on June 12, 2010, 11:38:32 AM
Folks, all the best for now, as there is no way I'm going to participate one minute longer on this board as long as a sc**bag with an Irish flag, and the word Tyrone beside it continues to personally attack me.
The moderators are not interested in moderating, so what is the point in continuing.
Good luck all.
See ya !!! This thread had nothing at all to do with aid to Gaza and everything to do with channeling hate for Israel
and so while you efforts are hate based you can expect to be called on it.
And as for the Moderators not doing their job, please quote the rule that you believe they're over looking here
Now if I called you a scum**g you might then be on to something and have reason to whine about the Mods ::)
You have proven to everybody on this board that you are a sc**bag with your comments in your previous post. There is no getting away from that.
agree.
"Tyrones own" ?
Ditch the tricolour and the county username.
You're an embarassment to both.
Quote from: Malvinas on June 12, 2010, 06:23:12 PM
"Tyrones own" ?
Ditch the tricolour and the county username.
You're an embarassment to both.
Nothing but a brainless yank. Good for nothing only makin noise. Dixie is a better man than a runt like you will ever be. Now f**k off and do us all a f**king favour.
Quote from: give her dixie on June 12, 2010, 11:38:32 AM
Folks, all the best for now, as there is no way i'm going to participate one minute longer on this board as long as a sc**bag with an Irish flag, and the word Tyrone beside it continues to personally attack me.
The moderators are not interested in moderating, so what is the point in continuing.
Good luck all.
Ya bie ya, get back here and fight yer corner and don't let yon gabshite stop ya pursuing what ya believe in
Quote from: Malvinas on June 12, 2010, 06:23:12 PM
"Tyrones own" ?
Ditch the tricolour and the county username.
You're an embarassment to both.
Does everyone from Tyrone have to have the same viewpoint?
Ah Yes...when all else fails, insult after insult after insult for simply refusing to adhere to the sheep mentality
in following the resident Pied Piper.
And yet ye wonder why I question the reasoning behind the agenda from the time to time,
ruffle a few feathers and the real truth surfaces...face it lads ye are hardly advocates or
poster children for peace now are ye ::) charlatans the lot of ye!!
Curious question lads....Why did we not have flotillas of flotillas of Ships bearing humanitarian aid to break the US embargo on Cuba, which by the way is still going on. Are the Cubans not sexy enough
Quote from: Pangurban on June 13, 2010, 02:57:37 AM
Curious question lads....Why did we not have flotillas of flotillas of Ships bearing humanitarian aid to break the US embargo on Cuba, which by the way is still going on. Are the Cubans not sexy enough
Because all you have to do is go to Canada and then go to Cuba. Can't believe you are defending a lunatic like Tyrone's Own Pangur.
Certainly not defending Tyrones Own, i despise his views, merely questioning the psychology behind choices people make, as to which groups of people are deemed worthy of assistance. We have Medicins San Frontiers, but i am not sure we have Aid Sans Frontiers
Quote from: Malvinas on June 12, 2010, 06:23:12 PM
"Tyrones own" ?
Ditch the tricolour and the county username.
You're an embarassment to both.
Couldnt agree more. Get Tyrone out of your username but keep the rest because you are on your own ye p***k.
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 13, 2010, 12:12:30 AM
Ah Yes...when all else fails, insult after insult after insult for simply refusing to adhere to the sheep mentality
in following the resident Pied Piper.
And yet ye wonder why I question the reasoning behind the agenda from the time to time,
ruffle a few feathers and the real truth surfaces...face it lads ye are hardly advocates or
poster children for peace now are ye ::) charlatans the lot of ye!!
Typical of your nonsense.
You only received insults after your own insulting insinuations in your previous post. You know, the one the Mods have now edited ;)
Hilarious, by the way, that you of all people make a reference to sheep mentality :D
Quote from: Pangurban on June 13, 2010, 02:57:37 AM
Curious question lads....Why did we not have flotillas of flotillas of Ships bearing humanitarian aid to break the US embargo on Cuba, which by the way is still going on. Are the Cubans not sexy enough
The Blockade and the embargo are different. Cuba has a recognised Government who trade with many countries. They also have functioning domestic production in agriculture. The US embargo is not adhered to by all countries and in particular some surounding Cuba. In Gaza their is a blockade in which nothing enters or leaves without going through the Israelis. Not only that but they bombed the shit out of every resourse Gaza had and then blockaded.
Were are the mods of this f**king site?
The amount of abuse being handed out here is an absolute disgrace.
Quote from: stew on June 13, 2010, 03:28:29 PM
Were are the mods of this f**king site?
The amount of abuse being handed out here is an absolute disgrace.
Yes, Tyrone's Own should have been banned by now
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on June 13, 2010, 04:09:56 PM
Quote from: stew on June 13, 2010, 03:28:29 PM
Were are the mods of this f**king site?
The amount of abuse being handed out here is an absolute disgrace.
Yes, Tyrone's Own should have been banned by now
I should be banned?...if I
were to go there should be 10 or 12 coming with me :o
When everyone is against you, it means that you are absolutely wrong or.......... absolutely right !
- Albert Guinon
Nobody is right on this thread, absolutely nobody.
Quote from: stew on June 13, 2010, 05:28:36 PM
Nobody is right on this thread, absolutely nobody.
your right
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 13, 2010, 12:12:30 AM
Ah Yes...when all else fails, insult after insult after insult for simply refusing to adhere to the sheep mentality
in following the resident Pied Piper.
You might acknowledge that some of us have had a keen interest in the situation in the Middle East for as least as long as, and in some cases, longer than some on this board have been on this planet.
Dixie is no Pied Piper, just a man with the conviction to see glaring wrongs righted.
Being based in America does not help your cause. In a land where only a small percentage of the population possess a passport, you really should attempt to broaden your perspective.
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 13, 2010, 04:21:28 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on June 13, 2010, 04:09:56 PM
Quote from: stew on June 13, 2010, 03:28:29 PM
Were are the mods of this f**king site?
The amount of abuse being handed out here is an absolute disgrace.
Yes, Tyrone's Own should have been banned by now
I should be banned?...if I were to go there should be 10 or 12 coming with me :o
When everyone is against you, it means that you are absolutely wrong or.......... absolutely right !
- Albert Guinon
Or a bit of a c**k?
Quote from: Pangurban on June 13, 2010, 02:57:37 AM
Curious question lads....Why did we not have flotillas of flotillas of Ships bearing humanitarian aid to break the US embargo on Cuba, which by the way is still going on. Are the Cubans not sexy enough
With due respect that's probably one of the worst comparisons ever put on the board, which is saying something.
Jon Stewart and the attack on Helen Thomas
There is a reason Jon Stewart has such an intact comedy news throne.
He's well educated, always current, a sharp wit; he's funny, and he's the right religion.
I could care less what religion he or anyone else is, until it starts getting in the way of the human race, which it did in last week's program where he rips into veteran White House reporter Helen Thomas.
It takes comedy down a dreary road in my opinion, when people like Stewart speak in terms so ignorantly offensive to Palestinians, journalists, and all people with half a brain in on-air jobs. But all comedy aside, Stewart is heartless for attacking nine generations of American journalism and history, a person who knew presidents when Stewart was still a baby playing in his poop.
Helen Thomas, the only real voice in her league with the guts and fortitude to tell the truth about what Israel has become; a cruel gatekeeper for a whole population that owned the land Israel now comprises, only 60 years ago.
Jon Stewart obviously believes the line about the "Chosen People who can kill and pillage in the name of God". Israel's military operates like the Nazis' who oppressed them in the 1930s and 1940s and while it isn't socially acceptable to talk about it, it is still being increasingly discussed. The people of Gaza are sniped from Israeli towers, farmers are shot down in their fields. Families are slaughtered by Israel's military while having picnics on the beach.
Jon Stewart is cool with that, it creeps me out.
I have heard Jon Stewart go on about "Iran's nukes" when in fact there is not a shred of evidence that there is any plan there for nuclear weapons; it is against their philosophy and I defy any reader to show me a passage where Iran talks about wanting or planning to have nuclear arms. But Israel has hundreds, and every stinking one is illegal. They refuse to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty; illegal and dangerous, that's what Israel is.
So after 60 years, it is still OK, with Jon Stewart of the Daily Show, to act like the tragic plight of the Palestinian people is just fine, perfectly OK. Then he has the lack of class to go on and on and on about racism. He's Jewish, so as long as he leaves Arabs out; he's meeting personal goals, and Israeli goals.
He's obviously personally angry that Helen Thomas had the guts to tell a rabbi who asked her thoughts on Israel, "Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine" — that is what Helen Thomas said.
Stewart misses the fact that she had the confidence to trust the little racist rabbi; she was telling him the truth, with regard to how she sees it, from an inside perspective in the White House dating back to the earliest years of broadcasting.
Maybe she has a point Jon Stewart, but then you are "cool" with Israeli oppression and the murder of little kids, ooops, I meant "Israel's right to defend itself", and the slaughter in Gaza, oh there I go again, "Operation Cast Lead" (somehow that doesn't sound much better). Then of course it is no big deal to you that Israel uses weapons that are expressly illegal under the Geneva Convention. Jon Stewart is one of the smartest guys around, he has to know, why would he choose to ridicule an American hero for speaking out?
Palestinian kids have to be escorted to school to escape daily violence from "settlers" intent on harming them. Groups like the Christian Peacemakers Team literally has to escort the kids past the radical Jews to simply keep them safe.
Oh wait, that's right, they are "defending themselves" as they attack little boys and girls in the streets.
We reported recently that the settlers are now organizing terror cells, to train in techniques that allow them to more effectively kill Palestinians, and if you actually read the story, and look at the images, you will see little Israeli kids being trained to be terrorists against the indigenous population that these entitlement babies have to steal from.
Oh, and if a settler squats in one of these "settlement" homes for ten years, he gets it for free. Israeli settlers bent on harassing Palestinians look similar in an odd way, to LA gang members; and in a similar way they move in packs, never fighting alone, with no regard for women or children in casting their violence. They are the scourge of Israel's religious lunatic fringe
Stewart's reply to Helen Thomas' statement about how Israelis should give the country back to the Palestinians was predictable, and mostly only understood by fellow Jews...
He said, "Why did the Jews ever leave Germany and Poland?"
Which is a total implication that it is "dangerous" for Jewish people to live in Germany today, and not one Jewish or German friend in recent years has tried to push that story. There are neo-Nazis in the back alleys and all, but you get punished in Germany for displaying a swastika.
He compared her to a racist manifestation of the Sesame Street character, Elmo. Must've had the writers on overtime for that one, eh Jon? Here is the clip that is potentially world changing, which received little fanfare, next to the comment about Israel's occupation of Palestine. What I could do is show pictures of little children intentionally attacked by the Israeli military during their winter siege on Gaza, 2008/2009. Schools were targeted, hospitals were targeted. I will never relinquish an inch in this area, I only regret not being in Palestine right now to aid our brothers and sisters who are starving and under constant daily threat from Israeli "settlers" — friends of Stewart's who are all religious fanatical Zionists intent on clearing all Palestinians from the land, in the name of God of course.
Any real hope for a peaceful solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict seems far away, though the recent murders of unarmed peace activists aboard the Mavi Marmara in the Gaza Freedom Flotilla are bringing about an end to the blockade, along with the efforts of Egypt and Turkey.
Israel went too far and definitely lost some of their grip, thank goodness for that. US citizen Emily Henochowicz was shot directly in the face with a tear gas canister as she demonstrated against the Flotilla massacre.
Hey Stewart, what about Emily? Do you know who I'm talking about? Right, the Jewish American art student from New York who lost an eye last week when one of your cousins over in Israel shot her at point blank range with a tear gas gun. She didn't die, thank God, but she lost an eye and was really hurt badly.
Cool with you Jon Stewart?
No mention of her in the Helen Thomas piece, why not?
Some Jewish people, like Emily, are the best people in the world, like Muslims, and Christians, and Buddhists, but you don't have some damned right to stand in judgment of someone like Helen Thomas, you're totally a punk next to her and you will never be her, because you chose to be a joke maker instead of a serious journalist, whatever.
Israeli people write every day in comments and to my e-mail address, asking why I don't tell the other side of the story. My immediate answer is that there is only one truth; one group is suffering and one group is benefiting, and that group is clearly Israel.
But what is Israel? There is no easy answer, the best one is that it is not Israel, it is Palestine.
— Tim King is a former US Marine with twenty years of experience on the west coast as a television news producer, photojournalist, reporter and assignment editor. In addition to his role as a war correspondent, this Los Angeles native serves as Salem-News.com's Executive News Editor.
Posted by
TIM KING | ARAB NEWS
Jun 13, 2010 22:33
So now Israel are going to ask Trimble to investigate the whole shenanighans.
What a waste of fecking time.
Trimble is the perfect stooge for the Jews! after being literally kicked out of banbridge he was rescued by the Brits to the house of lords and has been in cold storage for just this mission. his joint Nobel peace prize with john Hume will be well talked about by the US and Brit media his join hands with bono etc in every soundbite. his other activities when he became known as the 'portadown prancer' will never see the light of day again. the fact that on the garvaghy rd the area he and his loyalist buddies laid siege to coincidently flys the Palestinian flag will only ever be aired here. yes its payback for David "we're in a spot of trouble David and you owe us bigtime" >:(
A report in todays Irish Times shows that Cavan/ Monaghan Fine Gael TD, Seymour Crayford, intends to speak at a pro-Israeli event on Thursday July 8th. Please contact Seymour and inform him that his actions are unacceptable. Contact him by E-mail seymour.crawford@oireachtas.ie or phone his constituency office 047 71911
International Committee of the Red Cross has released a report calling for Israel to end the blockade
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/13/israel.gaza.closure/index.html?hpt=T2~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/13/israel.gaza.closure/index.html?hpt=T2~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~)
Some of the report may be disputed, e.g. how much responsibility a civilian population has for the government they democratically elect. But what can not be disputed is the humanitarian principle of not carrying of war to a civilian population, a principle which existed since the end of WW2, even before the modern state of Israel was born.
The report is timely as Israel are desperate to justify the blockade, having just constituted an "independent" commission to probe
into the flotilla attack and seizure.
I couldn't believe it today when I heard Trimble was to oversee the Israeli Enquiry into Israelis murdering 9 humanitarians. The only name that comes to my mind is Widgery.
Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on June 14, 2010, 08:53:20 AM
Jon Stewart and the attack on Helen Thomas
There is a reason Jon Stewart has such an intact comedy news throne.
He's well educated, always current, a sharp wit; he's funny, and he's the right religion.
I could care less what religion he or anyone else is, until it starts getting in the way of the human race, which it did in last week's program where he rips into veteran White House reporter Helen Thomas.
It takes comedy down a dreary road in my opinion, when people like Stewart speak in terms so ignorantly offensive to Palestinians, journalists, and all people with half a brain in on-air jobs. But all comedy aside, Stewart is heartless for attacking nine generations of American journalism and history, a person who knew presidents when Stewart was still a baby playing in his poop.
Helen Thomas, the only real voice in her league with the guts and fortitude to tell the truth about what Israel has become; a cruel gatekeeper for a whole population that owned the land Israel now comprises, only 60 years ago.
Jon Stewart obviously believes the line about the "Chosen People who can kill and pillage in the name of God". Israel's military operates like the Nazis' who oppressed them in the 1930s and 1940s and while it isn't socially acceptable to talk about it, it is still being increasingly discussed. The people of Gaza are sniped from Israeli towers, farmers are shot down in their fields. Families are slaughtered by Israel's military while having picnics on the beach.
Jon Stewart is cool with that, it creeps me out.
I have heard Jon Stewart go on about "Iran's nukes" when in fact there is not a shred of evidence that there is any plan there for nuclear weapons; it is against their philosophy and I defy any reader to show me a passage where Iran talks about wanting or planning to have nuclear arms. But Israel has hundreds, and every stinking one is illegal. They refuse to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty; illegal and dangerous, that's what Israel is.
So after 60 years, it is still OK, with Jon Stewart of the Daily Show, to act like the tragic plight of the Palestinian people is just fine, perfectly OK. Then he has the lack of class to go on and on and on about racism. He's Jewish, so as long as he leaves Arabs out; he's meeting personal goals, and Israeli goals.
He's obviously personally angry that Helen Thomas had the guts to tell a rabbi who asked her thoughts on Israel, "Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine" — that is what Helen Thomas said.
Stewart misses the fact that she had the confidence to trust the little racist rabbi; she was telling him the truth, with regard to how she sees it, from an inside perspective in the White House dating back to the earliest years of broadcasting.
Maybe she has a point Jon Stewart, but then you are "cool" with Israeli oppression and the murder of little kids, ooops, I meant "Israel's right to defend itself", and the slaughter in Gaza, oh there I go again, "Operation Cast Lead" (somehow that doesn't sound much better). Then of course it is no big deal to you that Israel uses weapons that are expressly illegal under the Geneva Convention. Jon Stewart is one of the smartest guys around, he has to know, why would he choose to ridicule an American hero for speaking out?
Palestinian kids have to be escorted to school to escape daily violence from "settlers" intent on harming them. Groups like the Christian Peacemakers Team literally has to escort the kids past the radical Jews to simply keep them safe.
Oh wait, that's right, they are "defending themselves" as they attack little boys and girls in the streets.
We reported recently that the settlers are now organizing terror cells, to train in techniques that allow them to more effectively kill Palestinians, and if you actually read the story, and look at the images, you will see little Israeli kids being trained to be terrorists against the indigenous population that these entitlement babies have to steal from.
Oh, and if a settler squats in one of these "settlement" homes for ten years, he gets it for free. Israeli settlers bent on harassing Palestinians look similar in an odd way, to LA gang members; and in a similar way they move in packs, never fighting alone, with no regard for women or children in casting their violence. They are the scourge of Israel's religious lunatic fringe
Stewart's reply to Helen Thomas' statement about how Israelis should give the country back to the Palestinians was predictable, and mostly only understood by fellow Jews...
He said, "Why did the Jews ever leave Germany and Poland?"
Which is a total implication that it is "dangerous" for Jewish people to live in Germany today, and not one Jewish or German friend in recent years has tried to push that story. There are neo-Nazis in the back alleys and all, but you get punished in Germany for displaying a swastika.
He compared her to a racist manifestation of the Sesame Street character, Elmo. Must've had the writers on overtime for that one, eh Jon? Here is the clip that is potentially world changing, which received little fanfare, next to the comment about Israel's occupation of Palestine. What I could do is show pictures of little children intentionally attacked by the Israeli military during their winter siege on Gaza, 2008/2009. Schools were targeted, hospitals were targeted. I will never relinquish an inch in this area, I only regret not being in Palestine right now to aid our brothers and sisters who are starving and under constant daily threat from Israeli "settlers" — friends of Stewart's who are all religious fanatical Zionists intent on clearing all Palestinians from the land, in the name of God of course.
Any real hope for a peaceful solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict seems far away, though the recent murders of unarmed peace activists aboard the Mavi Marmara in the Gaza Freedom Flotilla are bringing about an end to the blockade, along with the efforts of Egypt and Turkey.
Israel went too far and definitely lost some of their grip, thank goodness for that. US citizen Emily Henochowicz was shot directly in the face with a tear gas canister as she demonstrated against the Flotilla massacre.
Hey Stewart, what about Emily? Do you know who I'm talking about? Right, the Jewish American art student from New York who lost an eye last week when one of your cousins over in Israel shot her at point blank range with a tear gas gun. She didn't die, thank God, but she lost an eye and was really hurt badly.
Cool with you Jon Stewart?
No mention of her in the Helen Thomas piece, why not?
Some Jewish people, like Emily, are the best people in the world, like Muslims, and Christians, and Buddhists, but you don't have some damned right to stand in judgment of someone like Helen Thomas, you're totally a punk next to her and you will never be her, because you chose to be a joke maker instead of a serious journalist, whatever.
Israeli people write every day in comments and to my e-mail address, asking why I don't tell the other side of the story. My immediate answer is that there is only one truth; one group is suffering and one group is benefiting, and that group is clearly Israel.
But what is Israel? There is no easy answer, the best one is that it is not Israel, it is Palestine.
— Tim King is a former US Marine with twenty years of experience on the west coast as a television news producer, photojournalist, reporter and assignment editor. In addition to his role as a war correspondent, this Los Angeles native serves as Salem-News.com's Executive News Editor.
Posted by
TIM KING | ARAB NEWS
Jun 13, 2010 22:33
I must check that program out. Funny article though, not to include any quotes from Stewart?
Quote from: Zapatista on June 15, 2010, 12:02:11 AM
A report in todays Irish Times shows that Cavan/ Monaghan Fine Gael TD, Seymour Crayford, intends to speak at a pro-Israeli event on Thursday July 8th. Please contact Seymour and inform him that his actions are unacceptable. Contact him by E-mail seymour.crawford@oireachtas.ie or phone his constituency office 047 71911
Does it surprise you what these FG tosspots would do - not me. Thats why no matter how much I'd like to vote FG to get rid of FF I just could not bring myself to vote for them. Crayford and Shatter are a pair of pricks.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 15, 2010, 07:57:53 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 15, 2010, 12:02:11 AM
A report in todays Irish Times shows that Cavan/ Monaghan Fine Gael TD, Seymour Crayford, intends to speak at a pro-Israeli event on Thursday July 8th. Please contact Seymour and inform him that his actions are unacceptable. Contact him by E-mail seymour.crawford@oireachtas.ie or phone his constituency office 047 71911
Does it surprise you what these FG tosspots would do - not me. Thats why no matter how much I'd like to vote FG to get rid of FF I just could not bring myself to vote for them. Crayford and Shatter are a pair of pricks.
I get ye and agree that FG are nut jobs but to be fair it is FF in Government and it is up to them to act. They have failed miserably in their approach to Israel. One is as bad as the other imho.
Quote from: Zapatista on June 15, 2010, 12:02:11 AM
A report in todays Irish Times shows that Cavan/ Monaghan Fine Gael TD, Seymour Crayford, intends to speak at a pro-Israeli event on Thursday July 8th. Please contact Seymour and inform him that his actions are unacceptable. Contact him by E-mail seymour.crawford@oireachtas.ie or phone his constituency office 047 71911
Why are his actions unacceptable? It's a free country. Do you really believe it would be serving any cause to try to silence free speech just because we disagree with the speaker? If you do, you scare the shit out of me.
Let him speak and address what he says. If you believe his views shouldn't be expressed, you should be prepared to say who should decide what can be said by whom.
Where did you stand on Section 31?
Fair enough, wrong choice of word. I should have said that it should be accepted lying down.
Quote from: give her dixie on June 12, 2010, 11:38:32 AM
Folks, all the best for now, as there is no way i'm going to participate one minute longer on this board as long as a sc**bag with an Irish flag, and the word Tyrone beside it continues to personally attack me.
The moderators are not interested in moderating, so what is the point in continuing.
Good luck all.
I would urge you to reconsider. I don't usually comment on these threads but I would follow some of them, particularly this one as I'm sure many others do. I applaud you for taking the time to pass on the important information you do on this board. And it's a great idea to use this forum as a means of getting across what's happening around Gazza. Of course there will be those with bitter minds or an ignorance of what's going on but in spite of these one or two hardcore opponents I've no doubt there are others who now have a greater appreciation of everything that has been going on. This forum isn't a world stage but getting across the message of the plight of the Palastinian people even through this medium is doing something that is helpful.
So again Dixie reconsider. Refrain from exchanges from those hardcore but keep the information coming and one light shining on Israel's activitie
Quote from: Hardy on June 15, 2010, 09:10:42 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on June 15, 2010, 12:02:11 AM
A report in todays Irish Times shows that Cavan/ Monaghan Fine Gael TD, Seymour Crayford, intends to speak at a pro-Israeli event on Thursday July 8th. Please contact Seymour and inform him that his actions are unacceptable. Contact him by E-mail seymour.crawford@oireachtas.ie or phone his constituency office 047 71911
Why are his actions unacceptable? It's a free country. Do you really believe it would be serving any cause to try to silence free speech just because we disagree with the speaker? If you do, you scare the shit out of me.
Let him speak and address what he says. If you believe his views shouldn't be expressed, you should be prepared to say who should decide what can be said by whom.
Where did you stand on Section 31?
Where did you stand on it Hardy
I thought it was stupid. Why do you ask?
I don't see what the problem is with members of Friends of Israel from meeting and giving their viewpoints. The lines are marked to their support for the rights of Israel to exist, to exist free from attack, the threat of attack and defend itself from both. Quite basic stuff unless you disagree with Israels' right to exist like some of israel's rabid neighbouring fanatic leaders.
Certainly lines would be crossed if the Friends of Israel was used as a platform to support Israels' blockade of Gazza,.
The horse has already bolted regards the justification for the continuation of the blockade. This "independent" commission appears to be composed of people with similar leanings. Not only that, the scope of the tribunal is probably within very strictly defined, legalistic parameters. In the end, they might only give their opinion as to whether the boarding and seizure of the flotilla ships was in accordance with maritime law, which is not at all the major concern of humanitarians.
Anybody any thoughts on the supposedly impending Blair-brokered agreement to row back on the blockade? Can the flotilla organisers claim the credit for this and will it be a fitting legacy for the people killed on it?
Will the pro-Hamas hardliners dismiss it as window dressing? (Silly question. Of course they will). Will Hamas find a way to subvert the initiative and get the full-blown version reinstated, as their propaganda machine will be spiked without it?
Will the pro-Israeli hardliners and the Israeli right try to foment an incident to subvert the initiative and get the full-blown version reinstated? Of course they will.
For the rational majority, those who want a settlement rather than a victory, is this a significant step?
Quote from: Hardy on June 15, 2010, 11:43:10 AM
I thought it was stupid. Why do you ask?
just curious,so it would only be stupid to ban Crayford from speaking at the pro-Isreali event
How do you draw that conclusion?
Quote from: Hardy on June 15, 2010, 12:21:39 PM
How do you draw that conclusion?
you thought section 31 was stupid :o
Yes. How do you draw from that your conclusion "so it would only be stupid to ban Crayford from speaking at the pro-Isreali event"?
Is Seymour born again along the lines of the rev Wlilliam McCrea? Is it something in the water up there?
I remember talking to a woman from Cavan once who told me that Barry's tea was for black protestants.
Quote from: Hardy on June 15, 2010, 12:51:28 PM
Yes. How do you draw from that your conclusion "so it would only be stupid to ban Crayford from speaking at the pro-Isreali event"?
I just think that section 31 and if Crayford was banned both to be disgraceful and a denial of freedom of speech which should not be tolerated in any democracy.I would say the people who introduced and enforced section 31were anything but stupid.I think they were politicians who would have been better suited to Nazi Germany or North Korea than a democratic Republic.
Nice to see Tommy Sands supporting the Palestinian victims of ethnic cleansing in East Jerusalem
A Special Protest Vigil in Sheikh Jarah
And a Concert by Irish Folk Singer
Tommy Sands
on Friday 18/6/10 at 16:00
Meeting point: Sheikh Jarah garden, Nablus Road street, near the American Colony hotel
Quote from: Main Street on June 15, 2010, 11:45:40 AM
I don't see what the problem is with members of Friends of Israel from meeting and giving their viewpoints. The lines are marked to their support for the rights of Israel to exist, to exist free from attack, the threat of attack and defend itself from both. Quite basic stuff unless you disagree with Israels' right to exist like some of israel's rabid neighbouring fanatic leaders.
Certainly lines would be crossed if the Friends of Israel was used as a platform to support Israels' blockade of Gazza,.
The horse has already bolted regards the justification for the continuation of the blockade. This "independent" commission appears to be composed of people with similar leanings. Not only that, the scope of the tribunal is probably within very strictly defined, legalistic parameters. In the end, they might only give their opinion as to whether the boarding and seizure of the flotilla ships was in accordance with maritime law, which is not at all the major concern of humanitarians.
What about the right to build settlements and Israeli only roads in occupied territory? Does Israel have the right to do this?
Quote from: Main Street on June 15, 2010, 11:45:40 AM
I don't see what the problem is with members of Friends of Israel from meeting and giving their viewpoints. The lines are marked to their support for the rights of Israel to exist, to exist free from attack, the threat of attack and defend itself from both. Quite basic stuff unless you disagree with Israels' right to exist like some of israel's rabid neighbouring fanatic leaders.
Certainly lines would be crossed if the Friends of Israel was used as a platform to support Israels' blockade of Gazza,.
The horse has already bolted regards the justification for the continuation of the blockade. This "independent" commission appears to be composed of people with similar leanings. Not only that, the scope of the tribunal is probably within very strictly defined, legalistic parameters. In the end, they might only give their opinion as to whether the boarding and seizure of the flotilla ships was in accordance with maritime law, which is not at all the major concern of humanitarians.
I posted a few articles on this the last time you brought it up and you never commented on them, the refuted the claim that Irans prime minister ever said he wanted to wipe Israel of the map. Do you still contend that he did or do you accept, like I do, that he was intentionally misquoted to stir anti Iranian hatred?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 15, 2010, 06:08:40 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 15, 2010, 11:45:40 AM
I don't see what the problem is with members of Friends of Israel from meeting and giving their viewpoints. The lines are marked to their support for the rights of Israel to exist, to exist free from attack, the threat of attack and defend itself from both. Quite basic stuff unless you disagree with Israels' right to exist like some of israel's rabid neighbouring fanatic leaders.
Certainly lines would be crossed if the Friends of Israel was used as a platform to support Israels' blockade of Gazza,.
The horse has already bolted regards the justification for the continuation of the blockade. This "independent" commission appears to be composed of people with similar leanings. Not only that, the scope of the tribunal is probably within very strictly defined, legalistic parameters. In the end, they might only give their opinion as to whether the boarding and seizure of the flotilla ships was in accordance with maritime law, which is not at all the major concern of humanitarians.
I posted a few articles on this the last time you brought it up and you never commented on them, the refuted the claim that Irans prime minister ever said he wanted to wipe Israel of the map. Do you still contend that he did or do you accept, like I do, that he was intentionally misquoted to stir anti Iranian hatred?
Did you reply to something I wrote?
I never wrote anything about the Iranian PM.
You posted some article some time ago that wasn't worth passing comment on.
It is entirely your prerogative if you wish to believe such stuff as gospel.
The comments by the Iranian president Ahmadinejad and ex president Rafsanjani are vouched for, and were even passed on by the Iranian state news agency.
Only the other day I heard an interview with another maniac, the Iranian Minister of Foreign Affairs, still moaning about Europe making the Islam world pay for its own crimes against Jews. And that the establishment of Israel was a conspiracy by the West against Islam.
Quite frankly these Iranian political leaders are demagogues and engage in demagoguery of the lowest sort against Jews.
Main Street, why is this state which only wants to exist, to exist free from attack, and the threat of attack from its neighbours building illegal settlements in occupied territory?
Quote from: Main Street on June 15, 2010, 09:00:08 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 15, 2010, 06:08:40 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 15, 2010, 11:45:40 AM
I don't see what the problem is with members of Friends of Israel from meeting and giving their viewpoints. The lines are marked to their support for the rights of Israel to exist, to exist free from attack, the threat of attack and defend itself from both. Quite basic stuff unless you disagree with Israels' right to exist like some of israel's rabid neighbouring fanatic leaders.
Certainly lines would be crossed if the Friends of Israel was used as a platform to support Israels' blockade of Gazza,.
The horse has already bolted regards the justification for the continuation of the blockade. This "independent" commission appears to be composed of people with similar leanings. Not only that, the scope of the tribunal is probably within very strictly defined, legalistic parameters. In the end, they might only give their opinion as to whether the boarding and seizure of the flotilla ships was in accordance with maritime law, which is not at all the major concern of humanitarians.
I posted a few articles on this the last time you brought it up and you never commented on them, the refuted the claim that Irans prime minister ever said he wanted to wipe Israel of the map. Do you still contend that he did or do you accept, like I do, that he was intentionally misquoted to stir anti Iranian hatred?
Did you reply to something I wrote?
I never wrote anything about the Iranian PM.
You posted some article some time ago that wasn't worth passing comment on.
It is entirely your prerogative if you wish to believe such stuff as gospel.
The comments by the Iranian president Ahmadinejad and ex president Rafsanjani are vouched for, and were even passed on by the Iranian state news agency.
Only the other day I heard an interview with another maniac, the Iranian Minister of Foreign Affairs, still moaning about Europe making the Islam world pay for its own crimes against Jews. And that the establishment of Israel was a conspiracy by the West against Islam.
Quite frankly these Iranian political leaders are demagogues and engage in demagoguery of the lowest sort against Jews.
Why was it not worth passing comment on? It gave a word by word translation of what the Iranian PM actually said, as opposed to the quotes provided by to us all by the US media. I'm not saying the country is an idealic place but it is certainly no worse than Israel. If you can provide me a link to an article that quotes the entire speech and show me where he said he wants Israel wiped of the map I will take that on board and maybe I will change my mind.
Finally some good news, well done to all those involved in the free Gaza movement and especially to those who died two weeks ago. At least your heroic actions have resulted in a small step forward for the people of Gaza
Israel cabinet votes to ease Gaza Strip blockade
Israel has announced it will ease the land blockade of the Gaza Strip and allow more civilian goods to enter the Palestinian territory.
The move comes amid growing international pressure to end the embargo.
An Israeli raid on an aid flotilla attempting to break the blockade last month was widely condemned.
Nine Turkish activists died in the commando raid on the flotilla in international waters.
The decision to ease the blockade, agreed by Israel's security cabinet after a two-day meeting, will see the expansion of the number of products Israel will allow into Gaza, including construction materials.
The international Middle East Envoy, Tony Blair, had indicated that Israeli leaders would agree to a partial lifting of the blockade.
Israel and Egypt tightened their blockade on Gaza after the Islamist Hamas movement took control of the Palestinian territory in 2007.
Israel says the aim of the blockade is to prevent war material entering Gaza while allowing the entry of humanitarian aid.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10338199.stm
Quote from: Main Street on June 15, 2010, 09:00:08 PM
And that the establishment of Israel was a conspiracy by the West against Islam.
Quite frankly these Iranian political leaders are demagogues and engage in demagoguery of the lowest sort against Jews.
[/quote]
Why was Israel established on the land of the Palestinians? Because it was cheaper than giving the Zionists land in Europe. where did the zionists come from ? Where were Shimon Peres or Golda Meir born? Not in the Middle East.
The establishment of Israel went against all justice .
Well folks, due to the messages of support, I have decided that I am returning to the board.
When I said I was not coming back, it was said following a meeting with survivors from the Flotilla.
I was in London, and met up some of my friends who were on board. Their stories are horrific,
and what they witnessed and endured can't really be put into words. Then, the following morning,
I read the absurd comments made against me personally, and just thought why should I bother.
However, following the messages of support both through the board, and from others who know me personally,
I have decided to return and contribute once again. I will ignore the couple of people who seem to have a personal
vendetta against me, and if we all ignore their nonsense, we can have better discussions.
Anyhow, as the dust is settling on what was a horrendous attack on unarmed humanitarians in International waters,
many things are starting to change. The world has finally got a glimpse of what the situation is like in Gaza, and how
once again Israel, with full support from the US, went out and murdered innocent people in cold blood.
Israel set out to attack this boat from the day it was announced they would sail. In fact, they went as far as to
build a replica ship so as to practice their assualt. Footage of the Mavi Marmara on the ocean is different
to the balck and white footage they sold to the world. Flags, and the Mavi Marmara name do not appear in
the footage shown to the world from an hour or so after the attacks. Voice recordings were made up,
and photo's showing weapons were 2 years old.
2 people were murdered before 1 soldier came on board. Many others injured. They then boarded the boat,
and singled out people for execution. The US citizen was also singled out, and we know what happened to him.
They had a laminated booklet with various names, photo's, and descriptions. They knew who they wanted.
The 3rd person to die was the man in charge of the press room. He knew all the working of the internet,
and the live feed going out. He recieved a bullet between his eyes at close range. My friend was standing
next to him when this happened.
They then went on a rampage throughout the ship, and picked their targets. In total, 8 Turkish men, and a
US citizen were murdered, with 30 bullets fired. All but 2 were from close range, and from behind.
48 others were shot, and one of them is a good friend of mine. He had a miraclous escape, as he was shot at close
in the back of his head, and the bullet came out through his mouth. I can assure you he was very lucky, and he has
the scars to prove it. At this stage, everyone seems accounted for, and there is no one missing, despite numerous reports of 6 people still missing.
Another Widgery report is on the cards with Trimble as one of the Observers. The same Trimble who set up a
friends Of Israel group 24 hours after the attacks on the Flotilla. We all know the outcome of this........
Over £3 million in personal belongings has also been stolen by Israel during the raid. They took every penny and
credit card from everyone. They took every single camera, phone, luggage, and everyone had to return home
with the clothes they stood up in. The same clothes they wore during the attacks.
Oh, and the Israeli Occupation Forces who stole their stuff have been using their credit cards through out Israel.
Very moral army all right.........
Anyhow, more flotilla's are planned for Gaa. There is a Lebannese one sailing this weekend to Gaza, followed by reports of an Iranian one in 2 weeks time. Then, there is a Jewish boat sailing in July, and then in September another major Flotilla from across the world is planned.
To coincide with the September Flotilla, Viva Palestina are also heading back with another land convoy.
I will be taking part once again, and helping organise this next convoy. It is going to be a massive convoy, with many many groups and individuals from all over the world signing up to take part. We expect over 300 vehicles loaded with aid to take part.
So, if any of you out there want to get involved, just give me a shout.
People will probably ask us why we are going seeing as Israel promised last week to "Ease" the siege. Well, if anyone thinks that this is going to happen, well pigs will fly before that happens. The siege isn't going to be eased, and it is a complete lifting of the siege that needs to happen. Anything short of this is unnacceptable. Enough is enough, and it has to go.
So, we will be taking in humanitarian aid that is banned. Construction material that is banned. Paper for schools that is banned. Footballs for kids, that are banned, and anything else that is banned.
I know this is not the solution to their problems, buy hey, if we can help one person, we help them all. So, I expect to hear a bit of shit from certain quarters about going again, and not helping others. My answer to those is that if they feel strongly enough about other causes, then let them go and help them out.
So, that is where things stand at present, and I will keep everyone informed as plans unfold.
The support I have got from the board from the 1st moment I said I was going to Gaza has been amazing. I hope
I have educated many as to the real situation on the ground is like. Maybe some of you who disagree with personally,
will at least acknowledge that there is a major crisis in Gaza. Plus, by the responses I get from everyone, I too have learned along the way.
John
Good to have you back Dixie.
Good to have you back John.
http://www.ihh.org.tr/uploads/2010/insaniyardim-filosu-ozet-raporu_en.pdf
Fopr anyone interested, this is a comprehensive report from IHH on the attack on the Mavi Marmara.
It has many photo's, eyewitness accounts, and hard facts.
I bet Trimble and co. wont dare to publish anything close to this........
Well worth a read, I promise....
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 15, 2010, 10:49:13 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 15, 2010, 09:00:08 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 15, 2010, 06:08:40 PM
Quote from: Main Street on June 15, 2010, 11:45:40 AM
I don't see what the problem is with members of Friends of Israel from meeting and giving their viewpoints. The lines are marked to their support for the rights of Israel to exist, to exist free from attack, the threat of attack and defend itself from both. Quite basic stuff unless you disagree with Israels' right to exist like some of israel's rabid neighbouring fanatic leaders.
Certainly lines would be crossed if the Friends of Israel was used as a platform to support Israels' blockade of Gazza,.
The horse has already bolted regards the justification for the continuation of the blockade. This "independent" commission appears to be composed of people with similar leanings. Not only that, the scope of the tribunal is probably within very strictly defined, legalistic parameters. In the end, they might only give their opinion as to whether the boarding and seizure of the flotilla ships was in accordance with maritime law, which is not at all the major concern of humanitarians.
I posted a few articles on this the last time you brought it up and you never commented on them, the refuted the claim that Irans prime minister ever said he wanted to wipe Israel of the map. Do you still contend that he did or do you accept, like I do, that he was intentionally misquoted to stir anti Iranian hatred?
Did you reply to something I wrote?
I never wrote anything about the Iranian PM.
You posted some article some time ago that wasn't worth passing comment on.
It is entirely your prerogative if you wish to believe such stuff as gospel.
The comments by the Iranian president Ahmadinejad and ex president Rafsanjani are vouched for, and were even passed on by the Iranian state news agency.
Only the other day I heard an interview with another maniac, the Iranian Minister of Foreign Affairs, still moaning about Europe making the Islam world pay for its own crimes against Jews. And that the establishment of Israel was a conspiracy by the West against Islam.
Quite frankly these Iranian political leaders are demagogues and engage in demagoguery of the lowest sort against Jews.
Why was it not worth passing comment on? It gave a word by word translation of what the Iranian PM actually said, as opposed to the quotes provided by to us all by the US media. I'm not saying the country is an idealic place but it is certainly no worse than Israel. If you can provide me a link to an article that quotes the entire speech and show me where he said he wants Israel wiped of the map I will take that on board and maybe I will change my mind.
Again Myles, I never referred once to the Iranian PM. I referred to the Iranian President, present and past.
The comment in the linked article you provided was not worth commentating on because quite simply it had no credibility on its own.There are no credits (or whatever they are called) and no links to such credits contained in the article. My grandmother could have written it.
The translation of the Iranian president's speech was provided by the Iranian state translation service to news agencies all over the world. Naturally words will get twisted sideways but the Iranian President has had plenty of opportunity to set the record straight, but he just continues with different shades of the insane rhetoric while some translators dance on the head of pins making differentiations between destruction of a state and destruction of a people. Okay he now says says he doesn't deny the Holocaust but he wants more research into it, as in was it a real event? ;D
As I have already said clearly, that economic blockade (of Iran) mainly serves the self serving rhetoric of politicians on both sides while people suffer and it just does not help this situation when the Iranian president is also a raving lunatic. If you want to discuss that elsewhere then fine.
This thread is supposed to be about the humanitarian ship which sought to peacefully breach the inhuman blockade by the Israeli State of Gaza, and 9 were killed/murdered on that mission.
It's official: Israel has gotten away with it -- again
It's been a month since the Israeli navy killed nine humanitarian aid workers. But it's like it never happened
When the Israeli Navy raided the Mavi Marmara, a Turkish ship that was part of an aid flotilla attempting to break the blockade of Gaza, and killed nine activists in international waters, the world took notice. Condemnations of the raid and calls for the end of the economically crippling 3-year-old Israeli blockade of Gaza rung out from across the world. Even the United States, Israel's strongest ally, pressured Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to ease the siege on Gaza, calling the situation there "unsustainable."
But that was then, and this is now. Over a month after the deadly raid, and after an overwhelming bipartisan majority in Congress signed onto an American-Israel Public Affairs Committee letter that expressed "strong support for Israel's right to defend itself," the Obama administration is letting Israel get away scot-free. Israel will continue with the status quo of occupation and blockade while the prospects for a Palestinian state continue to whither away.
Israel and the United States' loving embrace was on full display this week when Netanyahu came to the White House. Essentially a "kiss and make up" session meant for domestic political consumption in both countries, Obama repeatedly affirmed that "the bond between the United States and Israel is unbreakable." The president praised Netanyahu for making "real progress on the ground" in Gaza by allowing in more consumer goods and for being "willing to take risks for peace." Netanyahu, with Obama's backing, called for "direct talks" with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, and said that Israel wants peace as long as the West Bank "isn't overtaken by Iran's proxies and used as a launching ground for terrorist attacks."
Netanyahu will head home with a smile on his face, satisfied that he has been given full blessing to continue his destructive policies. As for the Palestinians? They will continue to be blockaded in Gaza, squeezed in East Jerusalem and faced with threats of expulsion, deportation and, for Palestinian citizens of Israel, calls to strip them of their citizenship.
Despite Obama's praise for Netanyahu's showing "restraint over the last several months" -- apparently a reference to the "settlement freeze" -- the dire situation on the ground for Palestinians remains the same. The meeting served as a reminder that in the thoroughly lopsided game of "peace talks" between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, people on the ground in the occupied territories don't gain a thing.
For the residents of Gaza, Israel's deliberate policy of "economic strangulation," as Sen. Charles Schumer, a staunch defender of Israel, revealingly put it, will continue. The "easing" of the blockade is now legitimized by the United States, who praised the allowing in of more consumer goods, but the naval blockade remains. The private delivery of construction materials into Gaza -- badly needed since three-fourths of the coastal strip's damaged infrastructure, sustained during the 2008-09 Israeli assault, remains that way -- is still prohibited and exports are still banned. The people of Gaza remain trapped in their open-air prison, most of them unable to enter and exit as they please.
The "settlement freeze" was never really a freeze, and construction on illegal settlements continues. Settlements in the occupied West Bank, which constitute 42 percent of the land, according to a new report by Israeli human rights group B'Tselem, will continue to encircle Palestinian towns and villages and eat up Palestinian land supposedly meant for their state.
East Jerusalem, illegally annexed by Israel following the 1967 war, remains a keg waiting to explode. A recently approved plan to demolish 22 homes in the Palestinian neighborhood of Silwan in East Jerusalem led to clashes between Israeli forces and Palestinian residents, and served as a reminder to the world that Israel has no intention of settling the conflict. Four Hamas lawmakers who are residents of East Jerusalem are facing the prospect of being deported, which the U.N. rapporteur on human rights in the territories called a possible war crime.
As for the "peace process," President Abbas is under intense pressure from the U.S. and Israel to enter into direct talks, instead of the indirect negotiations currently being conducted. But it's unclear what ordinary Palestinians on the ground would gain from those talks, and the legitimacy of the P.A.'s involvement is questionable, as it only governs the West Bank and Hamas remains in control of Gaza.
The steady drumbeat of land confiscation, settlement building and the blockade of Gaza will not be challenged by the Obama administration. Israeli impunity for violations of international law have won out again. The only hope for Palestinians remains in the growing international movement for boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel. If the Obama administration won't impose costs on Israel, that leaves the task up to global civil society.
(http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq119/codyford1981/DrPhil-YouNeedHelp.jpg)
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 09, 2010, 06:01:03 PM
(http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq119/codyford1981/DrPhil-YouNeedHelp.jpg)
Intellectual debate is alive and well it seems.
Arthur, have you not met TO before? :D
Published 08.07.10
An excellent meeting
Two statesmen met in Washington on Tuesday who are looking smaller and smaller, who are taking smaller and smaller steps.
By Gideon Levy
It really was an excellent meeting: The chance that a binational state will be established has improved as a result; relations between Israel and the United States are indeed "marvelous." Israel can continue with the whims of its occupation. The president of the United States proved Tuesday that perhaps there has been change, but not as far as we are concerned.
If there remained any vestiges of hope in the Middle East from Barack Obama, they have dissipated; if some people still expected Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to lead a courageous move, they now know they made a mistake (and misled others ).
The masked ball is at its peak: Preening each other, Obama and Netanyahu have proved that even their heavy layer of makeup can no longer hide the wrinkles. The worn-out, wizened old face of the longest "peace process" in history has been awarded another surprising and incomprehensible extention. It's on its way nowhere.
The "warm" and "sympathetic" reception, albeit a little forced, including the presidential dog, Bo, the meeting of the wives, with the U.S. president accompanying the Israeli prime minister to the car in an "unprecedented" way, as the press enthused, cannot obscure reality. The reality is that Israel has again managed to fool not only America, but even its most promising president in years.
It was enough to listen to the joint press conference to understand, or better yet, not understand, where we are headed. Will the freeze continue? Obama and Netanyahu squirmed, formulated and obfuscated, and no clear answer was forthcoming. If there was a time when people marveled at Henry Kissinger's "constructive ambiguity," now we have destructive ambiguity. Even when it came to the minimum move of a construction freeze, without which there is no proof of serious intent on Israel's part, the two leaders threw up a smoke screen. A cowardly yes-and-no by both.
More than anything, the meeting proved that the criminal waste of time will go on. A year and a half has passed since the two took office, and almost nothing has changed except lip service to the freeze. A few lifted roadblocks here, a little less blockade of Gaza there - all relatively marginal matters, a bogus substitute for a bold jump over the abyss, without which nothing will move.
When direct talks become a goal, without anyone having a clue what Israel's position is - a strange negotiation in which everyone knows what the Palestinians want and no one knows for sure what Israel wants - the wheel not only does not go forward, it goes backward. There are plenty of excuses and explanations: Obama has the congressional elections ahead of him, so he mustn't make Netanyahu angry.
After that, the footfalls of the presidential elections can be heard, and then he certainly must not anger the Jews. Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman is pressuring Netanyahu now; tomorrow it might be Likud MK Danny Danon, and after all, you can't expect Netanyahu to commit political suicide. And there you have it, his term in office is over, with no achievements. Good for you, Obama; bravo Netanyahu. You managed to make a mockery of each other, and together, of us all.
Netanyahu will be coming back to Israel over the weekend, adorned with false accomplishments. The settlers will mark a major achievement. Even if they don't not admit it - they are never satisfied, after all - they can rejoice secretly. Their project will continue to prosper. If they have doubled their numbers since the Oslo Accords, now they can triple them.
And then what? Here then is a question for Obama and Netanyahu: Where to? No playing for time can blur the question. Where are they headed? What will improve in another year? What will be more promising in another two years? The Syrian president is knocking at the door begging for peace with Israel, and the two leaders are ignoring him. Will he still be knocking in two years? The Arab League's initiative is still valid; terror has almost ceased. What will the situation be after they have finished compromising over the freeze in construction of balconies and ritual baths?
Two statesmen met in Washington on Tuesday who are looking smaller and smaller, who are taking smaller and smaller steps. They have decided not to decide, which in itself is a decision. When the chance of a two-state solution has long since entered injury time, they have decided on more extra time. Get ready for the binational state, or the next round of bloodletting.
so, did any of the aid make it through to the desired final destination ? ..or does anyone give a shite...
Quoteso, did any of the aid make it through to the desired final destination ? ..or does anyone give a shite...
The short answer is obviously not, sure when was the word last uttered?
This Flotilla really never was about Aid...I think most here have eventually come to terms with that,
except of course for the few cheerleaders that are still dancing to his same tired tune!
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 10, 2010, 07:32:26 AM
Quoteso, did any of the aid make it through to the desired final destination ? ..or does anyone give a shite...
The short answer is obviously not, sure when was the word last uttered?
This Flotilla really never was about Aid...I think most here have eventually come to terms with that,
except of course for the few cheerleaders that are still dancing to his same tired tune!
and what was it about?
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 10, 2010, 07:32:26 AM
Quoteso, did any of the aid make it through to the desired final destination ? ..or does anyone give a shite...
The short answer is obviously not, sure when was the word last uttered?
This Flotilla really never was about Aid...I think most here have eventually come to terms with that,
except of course for the few cheerleaders that are still dancing to his same tired tune!
Disingenious to say the least TO. Even if there were those aboard/involved in the organization, who knew how well the resulting action by the israelis would further any political agenda - there were and are plenty of people involved in the plight for gaza for very humanitarian reasons. They are to be commended. It isnt their fault that there are others whose over zealous agendas besmirch the humanitarian nature of their cause.
Quote from: Puckoon on July 10, 2010, 10:36:58 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 10, 2010, 07:32:26 AM
Quoteso, did any of the aid make it through to the desired final destination ? ..or does anyone give a shite...
The short answer is obviously not, sure when was the word last uttered?
This Flotilla really never was about Aid...I think most here have eventually come to terms with that,
except of course for the few cheerleaders that are still dancing to his same tired tune!
Disingenious to say the least TO. Even if there were those aboard/involved in the organization, who knew how well the resulting action by the israelis would further any political agenda - there were and are plenty of people involved in the plight for gaza for very humanitarian reasons. They are to be commended. It isnt their fault that there are others whose over zealous agendas besmirch the humanitarian nature of their cause.
and those people still didnt deserve to be shot!
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on July 10, 2010, 05:10:00 AM
so, did any of the aid make it through to the desired final destination ? ..or does anyone give a shite...
Attitudes like this were fairly common regarding Ireland during the famine.
People didn't get a shite about us, and well, we all know what happened.
However, one country did give a shite Mike, and it was Turkey. They came to our aid, and
just like the problems they faced in getting to Gaza with aid, the British denied them entry
to Ireland.
Thankfully there are people in this world who really care about humanity, and try to help
and make a difference. At the same time, there are those who don't give a shite.
The latter are the ones who really need the help.
Below is an article about Turkey sending the aid to Ireland during the famine:
Gratitude to the Ottomans
Abdullah AYMAZ
The Treaty of Lausanne, signed in 1923 between the allied powers and the Turks in the aftermath of World War I, still prevails on the Turkish agenda. While on the one hand, some celebrate this treaty, arguing that it Marks Turkish independence from the invading powers, others are critical about it as so much was given away, like Cyprus, the Aegean islands, Mosul, etc.
Yahya Kemal Beyatlý (d. 1958), a famous Turkish poet and a former ambassador, had an interesting memory from the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne, in which he participated as a reporter. He recounts that while all the plenipotentiaries of the allied powers (The British Empire, France, Italy, Japan, Greece, Romania, and the Serb- Croat-Slovene State) voted in unison in opposition to Turkey, the representative from Ireland was an exception; in each vote, he raised his hand in favor of Turkey's interests.
Beyatlý noticed this unusual person, and could not help asking him the reason. "I am obliged to do it. Not only I, but are all Irish men and women," said the Irish representative. "When we suffered from famine and disease, your Ottoman ancestors shipped loads of food and monetary donations. We have never forgotten the friendly hand extended to us in our difficult times. Your nation deserves to be supported on
every occasion."
Ireland was ridden with famine and disease between 1845 and 1849. Also known as the Great Hunger, this famine had lasting effects: at least one million people died due to famine-related diseases and more than one million Irish fled, mainly to the United States, England, Canada, and Australia. Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid sent five ships full of food supplies and funds as charity. However, the British administration did not give permission for these ships to enter the ports of Belfast or Dublin.
Taner Baytok, former Turkish ambassador to Ireland, recounts in his memoirs that these ships secretly discharged their load in Drogheda, a town approximately 70 miles north of Dublin. In May 2, 1995, commemorating this charity, the mayor of Drogheda, Alderman Frank Goddfrey, paid honor to Baytok and erected a plaque in the Westcourt Hotel, which was then the City Hall where Turkish seamen stayed.
Baytok says he first learned of this act of charity from an article by Thomas P. O'Neill published in The Threshold magazine in 1957. The Otoman sultan declared that he would donate £10,000, but on the orders of Queen Victoria the British Ambassador in Istanbul informed the Sultan that he shouldreduce this amount, for the Queen's donation was only £2,000. As noted in the letter of gratitude from the "noblemen, gentlemen, and inhabitants of Ireland," the amount donated by Sultan Abdülmecid was reduced by the Queen to one thousand pounds.
Ottoman efforts to provide food and lessen the pains of the Irish people, despite political obstacles and the long distance, certainly deserves to be appreciated.It is a case study that should be analyzed carefully, not only as historical evidence for the friendship between two nations, but also as a perfect example that differences of race, religion, or language should not prevent humanitarian aid.
This generous charity from a Muslim sultan to a Christian nation is also important, particularly in our time when Muslims are often unfairly accused of human rights violations. Likewise, the appreciative plaque and overall reaction of the Irish society in return for this charity deserves to be applauded. We hope that the Turkish-Irish friendship sets a model for peace among different nations.
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 10, 2010, 07:32:26 AM
Quoteso, did any of the aid make it through to the desired final destination ? ..or does anyone give a shite...
The short answer is obviously not, sure when was the word last uttered?
This Flotilla really never was about Aid...I think most here have eventually come to terms with that,
except of course for the few cheerleaders that are still dancing to his same tired tune!
The organisers of the flotilla made it very clear from day one that it was not only about aid but also breaking the
illegal blockade of Gaza.
Unless you can enlighten us all about some other agenda you are aware of?
Short clip folks from the last convoy that broke the siege on Gaza and delivered humanitarian aid in January.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REc4CIBzZpY&feature=related
Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 10, 2010, 10:10:15 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 10, 2010, 07:32:26 AM
Quoteso, did any of the aid make it through to the desired final destination ? ..or does anyone give a shite...
The short answer is obviously not, sure when was the word last uttered?
This Flotilla really never was about Aid...I think most here have eventually come to terms with that,
except of course for the few cheerleaders that are still dancing to his same tired tune!
and what was it about?
It was a political stunt plain and simple to bring light to the situation in the region; mission accomplished...right?
Mike Sheehy is indeed correct in highlighting the marked distancing from the real issue here in getting
aid into them
in favor of showing themselves up for what they are..hateful people more interested in spouting their propagandized hate for the West
than trying to capitalize and follow up on what could be deemed a victory of sorts minus the loss of life of course, which then brings back in to play
the numerous you tube videos of some of these
humanitarians staunchly welcoming their fate
prior to their attempt at ramming the blockade :o
One must wonder at and question some of this.... that is of course if you are paying any bit of attention and not blindly following ::)
I find it hard to understand how an irishman can harbour such a view. i should think that your opinion on the hunger strikes would be interesting.
Quote from: behind the wire on July 11, 2010, 01:00:52 AM
I find it hard to understand how an irishman can harbour such a view. i should think that your opinion on the hunger strikes would be interesting.
He's not an Irishman and he is not worth debating with.
Quote from: behind the wire on July 11, 2010, 01:00:52 AM
I find it hard to understand how an irishman can harbour such a view. i should think that your opinion on the hunger strikes would be interesting.
I never realised that being Irish required signing up to a certain agreed viewpoint on anything. I'm away to check my passport.
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 11, 2010, 12:14:11 AM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 10, 2010, 10:10:15 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 10, 2010, 07:32:26 AM
Quoteso, did any of the aid make it through to the desired final destination ? ..or does anyone give a shite...
The short answer is obviously not, sure when was the word last uttered?
This Flotilla really never was about Aid...I think most here have eventually come to terms with that,
except of course for the few cheerleaders that are still dancing to his same tired tune!
and what was it about?
It was a political stunt plain and simple to bring light to the situation in the region; mission accomplished...right?
Mike Sheehy is indeed correct in highlighting the marked distancing from the real issue here in getting aid into them
in favor of showing themselves up for what they are..hateful people more interested in spouting their propagandized hate for the West
than trying to capitalize and follow up on what could be deemed a victory of sorts minus the loss of life of course, which then brings back in to play
the numerous you tube videos of some of these humanitarians staunchly welcoming their fate prior to their attempt at ramming the blockade :o
One must wonder at and question some of this.... that is of course if you are paying any bit of attention and not blindly following ::)
Blindly following what? All I know is that troops were sent on to a boat in international waters and shot 9 people. I would think any human being would have issues with that particularly when this is suppose to be a democratic, modern country allied with the west. Whether or not it was a political stunt is completely irrelevant, political stunts happen every day it doesn't mean the people involved deserved to be shot!
There is no evidence of the victims spouting "propagandized hate for the West" but I wouldn't blame them if they were!
QuoteBlindly following what? All I know is that troops were sent on to a boat in international waters and shot 9 people. I would think any human being would have issues with that particularly when this is suppose to be a democratic, modern country allied with the west. Whether or not it was a political stunt is completely irrelevant, political stunts happen every day it doesn't mean the people involved deserved to be shot!
There is no evidence of the victims spouting "propagandized hate for the West" but I wouldn't blame them if they were!
Maybe you should give it another read over there Pints... especially on where you got that last line!
Quote from: Myles Na G. on July 11, 2010, 12:50:38 PM
Quote from: behind the wire on July 11, 2010, 01:00:52 AM
I find it hard to understand how an irishman can harbour such a view. i should think that your opinion on the hunger strikes would be interesting.
I never realised that being Irish required signing up to a certain agreed viewpoint on anything. I'm away to check my passport.
Just check the cover on the front of yours, the crown will be a dead give away. ;)
Interesting tagline at the bottom of your page TO:
"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
- Flannery O'Connor"
I couldn't agree more. The truth is that the organisers never denied that the convoy wasn't just about aid. In fact they were quite determined to stress that it was also about drawing attention to the suffering of the people of Gaza. I fail to see what is wrong with that and why you wish to gloss over the murders carried out on the ship.
Another ship has set sail for Gaza.
It will be interesting to see what happens to this one.
Lets hope they reach Gaza safely, without another US/Israeli attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6OkQ17M--Y&feature=autofb
Libyan ship 'will continue to Gaza'
Weeks after the deadly raid on a Turkish aid flotilla, a Libya-sponsored ship is heading with aid to Gaza
Organisers of a Libya-sponsored aid ship have said they will continue their attempt to break the naval blockade of the Gaza Strip, despite Israeli claims that the vessel would instead sail to Egypt.
Yousseuf Sawani, a director of the Gaddafi International Charity and Development Foundation, told Al Jazeera that there were no plans for the Al-Amal to dock at the port El-Arish.
"This is definitely a part of the campaign against the ship, a campaign of distortion, but we are definitely heading towards Gaza, because that is where aid should be heading to," he told Al Jazeera.
"This is a purely humane mission, it is neither provocative nor hostile," he said.
The ship set sail from Greece on Saturday, carrying 2,000 tonnes of humanitarian aid for the Gaza Strip, but the Israeli foreign ministry said that it had reached an agreement with Greece and Moldova to have the ship diverted to Egypt.
Israeli request
Israeli authorities also reportedly contacted Omar Suleiman, the Egyptian intelligence chief, to request that the ship be allowed to dock in El-Arish, close to the border with the Gaza Strip.
IN DEPTH
But Hossam Zaki, a spokesman for the Egyptian foreign ministry, said that he was not expecting the ship to travel to the Egyptian port.
"This ship is not headed Egypt. We did not get any official request from the Libyan side for the ship to dock in Egypt," he said.
"Its not about the Israelis' request. Its up to the will of the organisers of the ship.
"They said they are heading to Gaza, they did not approach us. The situation as far we are concerned is a ship heading to Gaza."
The boat was chartered by a charity headed by the son of Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan leader, and is carrying "a number of supporters who are keen on expressing solidarity with the Palestinian people in the plight amidst the siege imposed on Gaza".
'Very serious consequences'
The 92-metre ship, renamed Al-Amal which means "Hope" in Arabic, has a 12-man crew and is carrying at least nine passengers, a representative of Piraeus-based agents Alpha Shipping said.
The passengers were made up of six Libyans, a Moroccan, a Nigerian and an Algerian.
The Moldova-flagged cargo ship is carrying 2,000 tons of humanitarian aid for Gaza [AFP]
"Israel will not let the boat reach Gaza," Yossi Peled, an Israeli cabinet minister, said on Sunday.
Allowing boats to reach the Hamas-run Gaza Strip without being checked would have "very serious consequences" for Israel's security, he said.
The latest attempt to defy the Israeli blockade comes after the killings in May of eight Turks and a dual US-Turkish citizen when Israeli armed forces attacked a flotilla heading for Gaza.
Amid increasing international condemnation after the raid, Israel has begun easing the blockade on the Gaza Strip by allowing in some previously banned items, but still maintains a naval blockade, prevents the export of goods or people over land, and controls the territory's airspace.
Construction materials to repair extensive infrastructure damage suffered during Israel's war in Gaza in December 2008-January 2009 are also heavily restricted
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 11, 2010, 04:22:08 PM
Interesting tagline at the bottom of your page TO:
"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
- Flannery O'Connor"
I couldn't agree more. The truth is that the organisers never denied that the convoy wasn't just about aid. In fact they were quite determined to stress that it was also about drawing attention to the suffering of the people of Gaza. I fail to see what is wrong with that and why you wish to gloss over the murders carried out on the ship.
Not glossing over the murders Nally but I'm also not blinded to the fact that Dixey and his band seem much more comfortable spouting
hate than using this outcome as a spring board to build upon in aiding these people >:(
"Energy flows where attention goes" and all that ::)
edit* I see the tide seems to be turning back to aid...wonder why? do try to keep up John!
Spouting? Correct me if I'm wrong but John has been to Gaza and took substantial risk upon himself in order to help others in their time of suffering. Have you?? He is not spouting, he is taking action. And again, what might be wrong with attracting attention to the suffering in Gaza?
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 11, 2010, 04:59:59 PM
Spouting? Correct me if I'm wrong but John has been to Gaza and took substantial risk upon himself in order to help others in their time of suffering. Have you?? He is not spouting, he is taking action. And again, what might be wrong with attracting attention to the suffering in Gaza?
His efforts are clearly built on a foundation of hatred unfortunately,
evidenced by 80% of his posts on both this thread and the US politics one
along with the word aid being strangely absent in most of them this last while
kind of takes the shine off of it for me personally :-\
It's pathetic how opinions are fine and good here as long as they're inline with the masses
otherwise it's the childrens play ground..grow up lads!
And by the by...again, do we all need to do the facebook thing and post our every move here
when it comes to charity so we can feel good about ourselves, a get out of jail free card and heavens forbid, be looked up to... ???
KABUL, Afghanistan: A wave of attacks killed six US troops and at least a dozen civilians Saturday in Afghanistan's volatile south and east, as American reinforcements moving into Taleban-dominated areas face up to the fierce resistance they expected.
Increased US-led military operations in the southern province of Kandahar are aimed at trying to break the Taleban's grip where they are strongest by delivering security and government services to win over Afghan people.
The hope is that once the tide begins to turn, more control can be handed to Afghan forces without fear that the Taleban might again seize power, bring back its harsh interpretation of Islamic law and resume sheltering Al-Qaeda terrorist leaders. Then US troops could begin withdrawing in July 2011, in line with a timeline set by President Barack Obama.
Senior US military officers have warned, however, that the fight in the Taleban's spiritual birthplace would lead to a rise in casualties for troops. June was the deadliest month of the nearly 9-year-old war, and July has kept pace.
On Saturday, two of the US troops killed died in the south in separate roadside bombings. In Kandahar city, a remote-controlled bomb on a motorcycle exploded, setting cars ablaze and shattering windows at a popular shopping center. The provincial government said one passer-by was killed.
The other American service members died in the east: One as a result of small-arms fire, another by a roadside bomb, a third during an insurgent attack and the last in an accidental explosion. Their deaths raised to 23 the number of American troops killed so far this month. Last month, 103 international troops were killed, 60 of them Americans.
In the spring, as NATO began stepping up patrols in the south, Adm. Mike Mullen, head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, warned reporters again that such a rise casualties would be inevitable. "I think we've been very clear for months now that this was going to be a very difficult fight in the south, and tried to set expectations, as tragic as it is, for these losses," said Mullen, who is Obama's top military adviser.
Progress has indeed proved slow, and the Afghan government is struggling to build trust, with many authorities seen as corrupt or unprofessional. Violence has also escalated as the insurgents work to sabotage Afghan authorities and kill foreign forces, sometimes with dramatic terrorist attacks, but most days with a steady flow of roadside bombs and small attacks.
In Saturday's deadliest attack, eastern border province of Paktia, unidentified gunmen killed 11 Pakistanis who had crossed into Afghanistan to buy supplies, according to Rohullah Samon, spokesman for the provincial governor.
Samon said 11 Shia minority Muslim tribesmen died and three people, including a child, were wounded in the ambush of their minibus in Chamkani district.
Elsewhere in Paktia, Afghan and international forces also said a combined commando unit killed a Taleban operative and captured eight others in an overnight raid, though local villagers later staged a small protest, saying the men were innocent civilians.
Another, larger protest in the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif involved another night raid that killed two security guards near a market earlier in the week.
A crowd of more than 1,000 crowd chanted "Death to America! Long live Islam!" Protesters said the security guards were unjustly killed when combined Afghan and international forces landed by helicopter at the bazaar before dawn Wednesday.
NATO spokesman Col. Wayne Shanks said the two guards were shot when they raised their weapons at the commandos and refused orders to put them down. He said the raid succeeded in capturing a Taleban-allied operative who supplied bomb-making material.
The international coalition has been aggressively stepping up such raids, trying to break up Taleban leadership and operations capability in a renewed push as 30,000 more American troops arrive to try to turn around the war.
The coalition say commando units have captured more than 100 senior and midlevel Taleban figures since April and killed dozens more. But the success rate has not made much of a dent in insurgent attacks.
On Saturday, an explosion tore through a NATO convoy traveling in the eastern province of Khost, though no one was killed. The German army later said two of its soldiers were slightly wounded by a roadside bomb in the northern province of Kunduz — the second homemade explosive attack on German troops in the area that day.
NATO's International Security Assistance Force has been in Afghanistan since shortly after the fall of the Taleban in 2001, when US-backed forces toppled the regime that sheltered the Al-Qaeda terrorist leadership following the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States.
[Removed]
Today a report into the attacks on the Flotilla raid was released.
6 weeks ago, Israel told the world that they were totally justified in their actions.
However, the report today concludes that:
"Mistakes were made in the various decisions taken, including within relatively senior ranks, which contributed to the result not being as we would have wished,"
I wonder what result would they have liked to see?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7885696/Gaza-flotilla-raid-mistakes-made-at-relatively-senior-level.html
Mistakes were made at a "relatively senior" level during the planning and execution of Israel's raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla which left nine Turkish nationals dead, an internal military investigation has found.
"Mistakes were made in the various decisions taken, including within relatively senior ranks, which contributed to the result not being as we would have wished," retired general Giora Eiland said, presenting the results of the investigation.
"In this inquiry we found that there were some professional mistakes regarding both the intelligence and the decision-making process," said Gen Eiland, who chaired the panel tasked with examining how the operation unfolded and learning lessons from it.
The Eiland Committee began its work on June 7, exactly a week after the botched naval raid in international waters, which also left dozens injured and provoked an international outcry against Israel.
Gen Eiland had on Sunday presented the team's conclusions to Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi and other military top brass who were involved in the preparations and in the actual boarding of the flotilla.
A summary of the key findings was also presented to Defence Minister Ehud Barak, the military said in a statement.
This is the latest news just in regarding the Libyan cargo ship sailing towards Gaza.
CAIRO — An Israeli military vessel confronted a Libyan aid ship Tuesday trying to breach Israel's three-year-old Gaza blockade and ordered it to divert to an Egyptian port, the Israeli military and organizers said.
The Gadhafi International Charity and Development Foundation said the Moldovan-flagged Amalthea, which left Greece on Saturday carrying 2,000 tons of food and medical supplies, refused to alter its course for el-Arish in Egypt and insisted it will steam on for Gaza.
The foundation also said in a statement posted on its website that the Israeli naval vessel is shadowing the Libyan-commissioned aid ship.
The Israeli military confirmed that it has made contact with the Amalthea and said "the navy has begun preparing to stop the ship." It did not elaborate.
The latest challenge to Israel's blockade on the seaside strip comes more than a month after Israeli naval commandos boarded a flotilla of Gaza-bound ships, killing eight Turks and a Turkish-American on one of the vessels.
The raid focused international attention on the Israeli embargo on Gaza, which is ruled by the Islamist militant group Hamas, and forced Israel to ease the movement of goods through land crossings.
However, Israel's naval blockade on the territory, meant to keep weapons from reaching Hamas militants, remains in place.
Israeli's policy has been to offer aid ships sailing for Gaza the option of docking at an Israeli port, after which Israel would screen the goods aboard and transfer them into Gaza by land.
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev reiterated that offer Tuesday, inviting the activists aboard the Amalthea to sail to the Israeli port of Ashdod and unload there.
"We will guarantee delivery of all civilian cargo to the people of Gaza," Regev said. "There are no limitations whatsoever on food reaching the people of Gaza. The crossings are open."
Hedley - that last bit of the article you removed was bang on!
I dont think it was Hedley who removed it........
Anyhow, the latest on the Libyan boat is that it has changed course, and will now dock in Al Arish.
The Egyptians have agreed to unload and deliver the aid through the Rafah border.
This is good news, and lets hope all the aid gets in safely to Gaza in the next few days.
Egypt allows Libyan aid ship to dock in el-Arish
A Libyan aid ship originally headed to the blockaded Gaza Strip has requested and received permission to dock in Egypt instead, an Egyptian official said on Tuesday.
"Egypt has given permission to the Libyan ship to dock in el-Arish port instead of the port of Gaza," the official said, adding Egypt would allow the ship's medical cargo and passengers to pass into Gaza through the Rafah border. (Reuters)
Quote from: give her dixie on July 13, 2010, 09:36:30 PM
I dont think it was Hedley who removed it........
Anyhow, the latest on the Libyan boat is that it has changed course, and will now dock in Al Arish.
The Egyptians have agreed to unload and deliver the aid through the Rafah border.
This is good news, and lets hope all the aid gets in safely to Gaza in the next few days.
Egypt allows Libyan aid ship to dock in el-Arish
A Libyan aid ship originally headed to the blockaded Gaza Strip has requested and received permission to dock in Egypt instead, an Egyptian official said on Tuesday.
"Egypt has given permission to the Libyan ship to dock in el-Arish port instead of the port of Gaza," the official said, adding Egypt would allow the ship's medical cargo and passengers to pass into Gaza through the Rafah border. (Reuters)
Oh has poor old Tyrone Own being reporting people to the mods again. Tell it like it is FFS.....
Again.... ??? Pray tell what possible reasons I of all people
on this board would have to report anyone ::)
In fairness it was a fair yella bastard thing to post from behind
a keyboard but it is par for the course when they can get away with it!
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 13, 2010, 10:26:11 PM
Again.... ??? Pray tell what possible reasons I of all people
on this board would have to report anyone ::)
In fairness it was a fair yella b**tard thing to post from behind
a keyboard but it is par for the course when they can get away with it!
Pistols at dawn it is then :D
Latest on the Libyan ship sailing towards Gaza:
A Libyan Gaza-bound aid vessel stalled by Israeli navy has resumed its voyage as its organizers deny reports that the ship has shifted its course toward Egypt.
The Moldovan-flagged ship Amalthea carrying 2,000 tons of food aid and medicine to the long-besieged Gaza Strip briefly stopped moving on Wednesday as Israeli gunboats blocked its way.
An Egyptian official said the ship had been diverted to the Egyptian port of al-Arish amid Israeli threats to intercept any aid ship trying to break its years-long siege on Gaza.
"The ship has resumed its journey but the going is difficult," Yussef Sawan, head of the Tripoli-based Gaddafi Foundation, told AFP.
"Israeli naval boats are trying to block its course and divert it from the Gaza coast," he said, adding that the boat was "about three hours from Gaza."
Sawan earlier reported a malfunction in the vessel's engine but blamed the cargo ship's stop on the Israeli navy boats surrounding it.
"Eight Israeli warships are surrounding the Libyan aid ship for Gaza and preventing the continuation of its journey," he said, adding the warships were "threatening" the Amalthea which he said was still pushing it ways toward Gaza.
Sawan dismissed the Egyptian claim that the aid ship was due to arrive in al-Arish port. "The ship is still headed for Gaza and will not change course," he stressed
Quote from: give her dixie on July 14, 2010, 05:05:52 PM
Latest on the Libyan ship sailing towards Gaza:
Nice to see you back, give her Dixie. Nice to see more ships heading to Gaza too. The siege is unsustainable.
Here is a very good article on the Gaza situation written by an Israeli.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jul/15/eyeless-gaza/?pagination=false
Can we make any sense of Israel's policy toward Gaza? I think we can—a rather sinister sense—but only if we look beyond the mass of sometimes conflicting details that have emerged since the attack on the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla" on May 31. On the face of it, it's hard to understand how any government could have decided to do anything so obviously self-defeating. At the very least Israel has handed Hamas a major propaganda victory, one that should easily have been foreseen. On the other hand, there is surely something about the whole foolish, deadly episode that is emblematic of Israeli's current approach. Listen, first, to the public statements.
"Everything would have worked fine, but the passengers reacted inappropriately." Thus, a headline describing the reaction of the captain who led the Israeli naval commando team onto the Mavi Marmara—the Turkish ship that was attempting to bring humanitarian aid to Gaza as part of the flotilla—and who was wounded in the ensuing struggle. (He was said to be speaking from his hospital bed.) He is certainly not alone in taking this view of the incident. In his first public statement after the debacle, Defense Minister Ehud Barak also blamed the activists on board the Turkish ship for what happened; he later added, in a striking non sequitur, that in the Middle East you cannot afford to show weakness, though that is precisely what the Israeli attack had demonstrated. Spokesmen for both the army and the government repeatedly said that the soldiers were in danger of being lynched—as if they were innocent victims of an ambush rather than, in effect, state-sponsored pirates attacking a convoy carrying humanitarian aid in international waters. The Israeli genius for "designer victimhood," to borrow a phrase from the Indian political philosopher Jyotirmaya Sharma, is capable of surprising flashes of ingenuity.
Within a week, the activists on the Mavi Marmara who resisted the attack had been upgraded in Israeli public discourse to terrorists—an amazingly capacious category that sometimes seems to include anyone who refuses to toe the government line. Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman had applied the term to the flotilla activists indiscriminately, even before the boats set sail. But it's important to emphasize that the violence by some of the activists on the Turkish boat against the Israeli commandos contradicts the basic tenets that the Israeli peace movement has embraced for many years. Those of us who work in the occupied Palestinian territories have been attacked many times, sometimes savagely, by Israeli settlers, and sometimes by soldiers and police; we do not meet violence with violence.
Such was not the case on the Mavi Marmara. Perhaps there were, indeed, hostile Islamic fundamentalists aboard the ship, as the government claims. But this is hardly the point. These boats were carrying medicines, wheelchairs, cement, and other badly needed items, not weapons. Despite the contorted rationalizations put forward by government spokesmen, including Israel's ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, the decision to mount a military attack on the flotilla is, to put it simply, indefensible on moral grounds. Moreover, aside from the moral considerations, which—contrary to popular opinion in Israel—are crucial to any meaningful reckoning, the long-term damage to Israel's interests, especially its strategic ties to Turkey, is apparent for all to see.
It's also worth noting that at the critical meeting of Cabinet ministers who made the decision, the Cabinet secretary, Zwi Hauser, advocated that the boats simply be allowed through—as indeed has happened several times before, notably with the first Free Gaza sea convoy in August 2008, with the well-known Israeli peace activist Jeff Halper aboard.1 Hauser's voice went unheeded; the ministers unanimously voted for the mission.2 The unanimity is impressive; it suggests to me that Israel is governed by people who are not merely incompetent but who are only tenuously in touch with the real world. Even more frightening is the thought that large parts of the electorate have by now been affected by this delusional state.
It's hardly a secret that the blockade of Gaza is ineffective. The lively trade through tunnels dug between Gaza and Sinai supplies whatever people can pay for, including missiles and other weapons for the Hamas government and the other militant groups. But not everyone can pay. The impoverished population of Gaza (approximately 1.5 million people crammed together in one of the densest concentrations on earth) suffers from severe shortages of some items—in particular, basic building materials such as glass and cement3:—and, of course, from the results of the vast destruction the Israeli army left behind after Operation Cast Lead in December 2008–January 2009.4 The blockade is meant to isolate and punish—and, in the most optimistic Israeli scenario, to bring down—the Hamas government, and possibly to "persuade" Hamas to release the kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit; its main effect, however, has been to isolate and punish the blockaders.
Why, then, maintain the siege? And why turn a harmless convoy of activists into an existential threat, as the prime minister and other government spokesmen have repeatedly done? No doubt there are considerations of prestige and "honor," in the common Middle Eastern sense of wounded, hence fanatical and ultimately self-destructive, pride. But I think the blindness goes much deeper than this. We are observing unmistakable signs of "multiple systems failure," the direct result, in my view, of four decades of occupation. The very nature and future of Israel's society and political system are at stake, and the danger of collapse into a repressive regime run by the secret security forces is very great. Many of us would say that the line was crossed long ago.
It is important to understand the depth of the change that Israel has undergone since the present government came to power in the spring of 2009. Netanyahu heads a government composed largely of settlers and their hard-core supporters on the right. Their policy toward Palestine and Palestinians rests upon two foundations: first, the prolongation, indeed, further entrenchment, of the occupation, with the primary aim of absorbing more and more Palestinian land into Israel—a process we see advancing literally hour by hour and day by day in the West Bank. Second, there is the attempt to control the Palestinian civilian population by forcing them into fenced-off and discontinuous enclaves. Gaza is the biggest and most volatile of the latter, and it is the only one, so far, to have put a Hamas government in power; but if the political situation in the West Bank continues to worsen, or if the deadlock continues, it is likely that Gaza will not be the last such place.
Maintaining the occupation is, of course, incompatible with making peace, and indeed it should be clear by now to all that the present Israeli leadership has no interest in resolving the conflict. Quite the contrary: the ongoing proximity talks with the Palestinian Authority are no more than a diversion. I know of no one in Israel who takes them seriously, least of all the Netanyahu government. Gaza itself provides another helpful distraction. The very idea of peace based on mutuality, compromise, and at least minimal respect for the dignity of the other side is anathema to the men and women in the Cabinet who are making the decisions.
There is another critical facet to the shift that has taken place. Under conditions of escalating nationalist hysteria, Israeli dissent is harshly dealt with. Ezra Nawi, one of the heroes of Israeli nonviolent resistance to the occupation, is now in jail. (He was convicted of assaulting a policeman while protesting the demolition of houses in South Hebron, although there is excellent evidence, including video footage, showing Ezra acting in the classic mode of Gandhian-style nonviolent resistance on that day.) The determined protestors against the evictions of Palestinians from their homes in Sheikh Jarrah, in East Jerusalem, are constantly being arrested and rearrested (meanwhile, another two large Palestinian families there have received eviction notices); leaders of the Israeli Arab community, such as Knesset member Ahmad Tibi, have received death threats and are routinely harassed by the security forces.
The villages of Bil'in and Na'alin, where nonviolent protest against the route of the security fence was pioneered and has continued without interruption for over four years, are now a closed military zone, off limits to Israeli peace activists. More important still is the attempt to break the back of nonviolent grassroots protest in Palestine by arresting and sometimes prosecuting, on trumped-up charges, the leading activists in the villages to the south and west of Jerusalem; someone has clearly identified this mode of resistance as a serious threat to the occupation. At least some of the items on this list may be explained by the fact that internal security is now in the hands of the ultra-right party Yisrael Beitenu, which has given us Foreign Minister Lieberman (he also, of course, voted to attack the flotilla).
What happened on the open seas on May 31 was thus no technical mishap or simple operational failure, as many Israelis would like to believe; nor was it only a function of the obvious inability on the part of the decision-makers to distinguish illusory or trivial goals from genuine Israeli interests (turning back a convoy carrying wheelchairs was never one of the latter). Rather, it expresses in a profound way the narrow, mean-hearted vision of an atavistic nationalism coupled with a delight in the fantasy of unrestricted coercion.
By far the best solution to the problem of Hamas rule in Gaza would be to cut a deal with the moderate, responsible, and by now increasingly effective Palestinian leadership in Ramallah. Such an agreement, built on Israeli withdrawal to the Green Line and the evacuation of the settlements, would put an end to the overtly colonial enterprise on the West Bank, which is incompatible with basic democratic values and human rights. All careful studies show that a large majority of Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza would support such an agreement, which would in all probability undermine Hamas's attempts to retain power in Gaza or to expand its power to the West Bank.5 Instead, the Israeli right prefers to indulge in displays of impotent and self-righteous fury, as happened on the Mavi Marmara.
Israel's few remaining friends in the world clearly see that the blockade is counterproductive and must end. After his meeting with Mahmoud Abbas on June 9, President Obama suggested that the blockade should be lifted on everything except arms shipments. "The status quo that we have is...inherently unstable," he said. In one of his first statements as prime minister, David Cameron told the British Parliament, "Friends of Israel...should be saying to the Israelis that the blockade actually strengthens Hamas's grip on the economy and on Gaza and it's in their own interests to lift it and to allow these vital supplies to get through." But the Israeli government is no less clearly committed to continuing, thus compounding, its errors. Indeed, perhaps "errors" is too pale a word for the deep conceptual and spiritual malaise that shapes Israel's Palestinian policy today.
Time is running out, possibly has already run out, for a solution based on partition. Still, there are occasional flashes of something slightly new. On June 2, Moshe Arens, former minister of defense in three Likud governments and a prominent spokesman for the right (in my view, the extreme right), published a column in Haaretz arguing that an Israeli retreat from the West Bank and the evacuation of settlements are inconceivable; along with various figures on the left, such as Meron Benvenisti, the former deputy mayor of Jerusalem, he thinks that the so-called two-state solution is long dead, a chimera kept alive artificially by the leadership on both sides in order to paste over the disastrous reality on the ground. But Arens's surprising conclusion is that because the occupation is irreversible, the Palestinian population on the West Bank—some 1.5 million by his count, probably a little low—should be granted Israeli citizenship and integrated into the Israeli state. Note that Arens has intentionally left out the 1.5 million Palestinians languishing in Gaza.
There have also been recent reports of small groups of Israeli settlers in the territories who have come to the conclusion that the current situation cannot endure, and that new modes of coexistence are called for. There are, it appears, points where the far right and the far left of the Israeli spectrum might coincide; perhaps these are the points where change will begin. In the meantime, some ten thousand Israelis have demonstrated in Tel Aviv against the siege of Gaza, and the blockade continues in full force.
—June 16, 2010
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 13, 2010, 10:26:11 PM
Again.... ??? Pray tell what possible reasons I of all people
on this board would have to report anyone ::)
In fairness it was a fair yella b**tard thing to post from behind
a keyboard but it is par for the course when they can get away with it!
Oh I recall on a previous thread some posts that were nasty in your direction were deleted thereafter - maybe your fairy god mother reported it.
I was wondering what you thought of that 80 something year old Holocaust survivor that was on-board one of the flotilla ships. Was she one of these merchants of hate you were talking about earlier. I heard on Fox news she was a muslim in a previous life and that she was packing an Uzi. Did you hear that too. Wasn't one of those nobel peace prize winning bastards on the ship too - trouble makers. Sure they should have been executed too. Evil anti semitic scum the lot of them I say.
Pink floyd Reunite For Palestine
Over the weekend, Pink Floyd's David Gilmour and Roger Waters reunited to perform four songs at an English benefit that raised money for young Palestinian refugees, marking the first time the two played in public since 2005's Live 8 concert.
Gilmour and Waters have had an acrimonious relationship since they first split up in the '80s, but the co-organizer of the benefit, Bella Freud, tells Rolling Stone that the two were in high spirits at the show, which suggests the two might have finally buried the hatchet. "David arrived first and then Roger came on and I saw Roger give David a hug," she says. "It was really lovely."
While the reunion was unannounced, there were plenty of preparations going into the event. Gilmour and Waters geared up for their short set by sound checking "To Know Him Is to Love Him," "Comfortably Numb" and "Wish You Were Here."
Gilmour and Waters were originally planning to play three songs. But one attendee, British financier Arpad Busson, was so taken with the performance, he donated £50,000 to get them to play "Another Brick in the Wall, Pt. 2." "Some other people were also saying they'd give £200,000 for them to play one more song," Freud adds. "People were crying — really! I know it sounds corny, but it was magic. David and Roger — they looked so happy up there and they made something so beautiful happen."
Also playing at the event was Tom Jones
The Irish Times - Tuesday, July 20, 2010
Trimble suspends link to Israel group during inquiry
FORMER ULSTER Unionist leader David Trimble has suspended his membership of a pro-Israel group led by former Spanish prime minister José María Aznar until he finishes an inquiry into the storming of ships bound for Gaza by Israeli soldiers.
Lord Trimble was appointed as one of two foreign observers to a five-strong panel set up by Israel to investigate the incident in late May, which saw the deaths of nine Turkish activists.
The Friends of Israel Initiative, led by Mr Aznar, urges western nations to give a better hearing to the country. It launched its campaign in the Palace of Westminster yesterday.
Conservative MP Robert Halfont said he had "been struck as a newly elected MP that whenever Israel is talked about, there is almost an orgy of criticism from so many MPs".
Lord Trimble's place on the inquiry team, Mr Halfont said, had been questioned by some MPs who asked how he "could be independent when he was a Friend of Israel . . . I tabled an amendment, saying, one, Lord Trimble had won the Nobel Peace Prize; two, he knew more about terrorism than anyone else; and, three, it was perfectly possible to be a Friend of Israel and a friend of peace," Mr Halfont told the crowded launch.
Mr Aznar said the former UUP leader had "frozen" his membership of the new body – which will be launched on Capitol Hill in Washington shortly – until the Gaza inquiry is completed.
Acknowledging that supporters of the group will be "automatically stigmatized as Zionist conspirators", Mr Aznar said it was important "that someone stands up and says, 'Enough is enough'.
"We are not Israelis, and most of us are non-Jews," he said, adding that Israel was being subjected to "a soft war" that threatened to undermine the international legitimacy of the state.
The country's enemies hoped Israel could "be isolated and turned into a pariah state . . . At that point, anything is possible. If Israel goes down, we all go down," Mr Aznar told the meeting.
Quote from: give her dixie on July 20, 2010, 11:44:58 AM
Lord Trimble's place on the inquiry team, Mr Halfont said, had been questioned by some MPs who asked how he "could be independent when he was a Friend of Israel . . . I tabled an amendment, saying, one, Lord Trimble had won the Nobel Peace Prize; two, he knew more about terrorism than anyone else; and, three, it was perfectly possible to be a Friend of Israel and a friend of peace," Mr Halfont told the crowded launch.
Jesus Wept
Turkish group may re-send flotilla aid ships to bust Gaza siege
Head of group behind May aid flotilla says Israel, which impounded the vessels, painted and repaired bullet holes to 'hide all the proof.'
By Reuters
The group behind a flotilla of ships that sailed to Gaza in May despite an Israeli naval blockade and ended when Israeli forces stormed the ships and killed nine activists said on Saturday it may use the vessels for another run on the blockade.
The Mavi Marmara, aboard which Israel's deadly raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla resulted in the deaths of 9 Turkish activists, leaving Haifa on August 5, 2010
Israel released the three ships this week after sending the Turkish Foreign Ministry a message that said it expected Turkey to prevent the vessels, which arrived in the east Mediterranean port of Iskenderun earlier on Saturday, from attempting to reach Hamas-run Gaza again.
Huseyin Oruc, a board member at the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Aid (IHH), which owns the ships, told Reuters TV that if the blockade on Gaza continued, the boats may take part in another mission.
"If the problem is not solved, many flotillas ... will sail to Gaza. If necessary, these boats can also be used for this," Oruc said.
"We have purchased these three boats for Palestinian needs. If it is necessary, we can use easily use them. These boats are humanitarian boats," he added.
Before releasing the ships, Israel, which had impounded the vessels after the May 31 raid, had unsuccessfully sought a promise that they would not be sent to Gaza again.
The raid caused a deep rift in relations between Israel and Turkey, once its closest Muslim ally. Turkey demanded an apology, withdrew its ambassador and canceled joint military exercises with Israel.
Turkey also listed the return of the vessels as one of several conditions for normalizing relations.
The converted cruise liner Mavi Marmara, aboard which Israeli navy commandos clashed with Turkish activists and killed nine, and two cargo ships were accompanied by Turkish tugboats from Israel because their motors were not functioning.
The Mavi Marmara appeared to be freshly painted, though signs in Hebrew and Arabic script were still visible. Clothing and personal effects could be seen through the ship's windows, and what appeared to be a bullet hole near the captain's cabin was seen from the nearby shore.
Oruc said the boats had been painted to cover bullet holes and other evidence.
"Thousands of bullets hit the boat, and it was damaged everywhere. When they captured the boats, the Israelis hid all of this proof on the outside of the boat. They have been repaired and were painted," he said.
Local officials told reporters prosecutors would board the ships on Monday to investigate for evidence of what happened during the raid.
Israel has admitted to mistakes, but said its marines were justified in using lethal force because the Mavi Marmara's activists had attacked them with clubs, knives and guns.
It also has taken fence-mending measures, such as easing overland trade to Gaza and lifting a travel advisory to Turkey for Israeli tourists
Netanyahu to Gaza flotilla probe: IDF coordinated the deadly raid
PM tells Turkel Commission that he had put Defense Minister Barak in charge of the operation during his North American visit.
By Barak Ravid and Haaretz Service
On May 31, Israel Navy commandos boarded the six ships that made up the flotilla, which was primarily made up of activists from a Turkish organization, in an effort to prevent them from breaking through an Israeli marine blockade and reaching Gaza. The naval commandos who boarded the sixth ship - the Mavi Marmara - were met with violence and the nine were killed in the subsequent clashes.
The incident exacerbated tensions between Israel and Turkey, whose formerly friendly relations had been strained by a three-week Israel Defense Forces operation in the Gaza Strip in December 2008.
When asked by the head of the panel, retired chief justice Jacob Turkel, whether or not it was the IDF which decided the means by which to halt the flotilla, Netanyahu said, "Yes, that's standard procedure." He added that it is the role of politicians "to determine policy" while "it is up to the military to execute it."
"The IDF had always decided on the ways in which to enforce the blockade [on Gaza] and has done its job well," the prime minister said, saying that this was the "division of labor."
When asked by the commission how the decision on military action was received, Netanyahu said that that all of those involved "felt that the raid was a last resort, and the instructions were to conduct it with as little friction as possible."
"The IDF had looked into several options, as per my instructions, but also according to the instructions of the defense minister and the chief of staff," Netanyahu said.
When panel member Amos Horev's asked which options were considered, Netanyahu evaded the question, instead asking to discuss the matter behind closed doors.
When asked by former justice Turkel who Netanyahu had put in charge of the operation during his trip to the United States a few days prior to the flotilla's arrival, the PM named Defense Minister Ehud Barak.
"I want there to be one person," Netanyahu said, adding that Barak had been "that person, I had a very important meeting with [U.S. President Barack] Obama."
The prime minister also told the commission that the implications of a military operation was discussed during the May 26 meeting of senior cabinet members known as the Forum of Seven, but said that the discussion had centered more around the public relations fallout the operation might have.
"We didn't discuss the details of the operation, except for the media impact," Netanyahu said. He declined to answer several questions from panel members, saying he would only respond to them behind closed doors.
Regarding the information Israel had received prior to the flotilla's arrival, Netanyahu said that Israel had known that the convoy had been organized by the IHH, which was declared a terror organization more than a year prior by the defense minister.
According to the PM, It was obvious that the "flotilla organizers were interested with clashing with the IDF," adding that that was the information "that I had as well as that which every other member of the Forum of Seven had as well as any official who dealt with the matter."
Netanyahu's opening statement: Panel will find Israel had acted within the law
In opening remarks given prior to the panel's questioning, Netanyahu praised the mission set forth by the panel saying, "no country or army examines itself more thoroughly than Israel and the IDF."
He continued by reiterating what he saw as the importance of Israel's naval blockade of Gaza, saying that the measure was intended to stop shipments of arms from arriving at the Hamas-ruled Strip.
"Hamas has transformed the Gaza Strip into a terrorist enclave sponsored by Iran," Netanyahu said, describing the "thousands of rockets and missiles" Iran supplies as well as the "military training and funding" that Iran gives to Hamas.
Netanyahu said he hoped the panel would emphasize in its report Hamas's violations of international law: "inciting to genocide; systematically and intentionally firing on civilians; using civilians as human shields; and preventing visits by the Red Cross to kidnapped IDF soldier, Gilad Shalit."
Netanyahu added that the world was bent on considering the situation in Gaza as a humanitarian crisis, even though there had been photos published of Gaza market stalls filled "to the brim" with food. Food and medicine had all been allowed into Gaza, the Prime Minister noted.
"While we did prevent a humanitarian crisis, we did not succeed in preventing the image of a humanitarian crisis – an image that was entirely false," Netanyahu said.
The Karin A, a ship intercepted by Israel carrying Iranian weapons, was used as evidence by the Prime Minister to denote the danger of an "open sea lane to Gaza."
Netanyahu described efforts that the government made in the month before the flotilla left for Gaza.
"During the month of May, a continual diplomatic effort to this end was made by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs vis-a-vis many countries, including countries whose citizens were on-board or whose harbors could be used by the flotilla at any stage of its voyage – including Egypt, Greece, Cyprus, Ireland, Britain, the United Nations, and above all with Turkey," Netanyahu said.
Elaborating on the political contacts that were made, Netanyahu said that on May 14, his office contacted some of the "highest ranking" Turkish officials. The ensuing conversation was on preventing a violent confrontation, Netanyahu noted. He said that on May 27, four days before the raid, he personally appealed to a senior official in Egyptian government and requested that they work in conjunction with the government of Turkey.
"Nonetheless, it became clear that these political efforts would not stop the ship," Netanyahu said. "Given the lack of effective pressure by the Turkish government and the lack of any desire on the part of the flotilla organizers to redirect their ships to alternative ports, none of the diplomatic efforts were effective."
Netanyahu wrapped up his statement by saying the IDF soldiers had the right to defend themselves against the violent activists who, as seen in the videos released, attacked them with clubs, knives, and live weapons.
The Turkel comission's mandate
The panel investigating the raid on a the Turkish Gaza flotilla was recently granted greater authority after Turkel told the government the committee could not do its job without expanded investigative powers.
Until the change in the committee's mandate, the panel was only supposed to determine whether Israel's efforts to stop the flotilla from reaching Gaza accorded with international law, and whether the soldiers' use of force was proportionate.
It had no power to subpoena witnesses and could not draw personal conclusions against those involved in the raid.
However, following Turkel's demand to turn the panel into a full-fledged governmental inquiry committee with real teeth, the committee was granted the power to subpoena witnesses and documents, warn those who testify before it that the panel's findings could harm them, and hire outside experts in relevant fields.
The committee does not, however, have the authority to subpoena IDF soldiers.
Soldiers and officers instead testified before the internal army probe into the raid's operational aspects that was headed by Maj. Gen. (res.) Giora Eiland, who is scheduled to present his findings to the Turkel Committee
peter canavan was name dropping the famous john huron tonight on setanta ireland :P
mentioned the gazza gaa team and jerseys
http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html (http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html)
John Hurson's a Tyrone legend. A top class fella.
Quote from: spuds on August 10, 2010, 12:45:42 AM
peter canavan was name dropping the famous john huron tonight on setanta ireland :P
mentioned the gazza gaa team and jerseys
Maybe a Gaza GAA jersey could be produced to raise some funds. I don't know if you are online these times John but do you think it would be worth considering? I know I'd buy and proudly wear it
Jesus Nally why would the GAA want to get involved in this. Its a sports body. What is happening in Gaza is sad but with the powers involved, Ireland is small fish.
Well you know what I mean, not GAA jerseys but O'Neills designed jerseys. They have made such things in the past for various 'non-sporting' causes and have sold well. Ireland may be small fish, but does that mean that all ideas for helping the situation for Gazans, however trivial, should not be considered?
P.S. I don't for one minute think that Ireland will change things there, nor did I suggest so, but donating a feckin few pound will help some poor bugger who could do really be doing with help
Four Israelis, including a pregnant woman, have been killed by Palestinian gunmen in the West Bank on the eve of peace talks in Washington.
The two men and two women were ambushed while driving near the Jewish settlement Kiryat Arba near Hebron, which has been a flash point of violence in the past.
Israeli police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said: "Obviously it was terrorist attack."
The country's Channel Two television said they had been shot from a passing vehicle.
No-one has yet claimed responsibility but Hamas Islamists in the Gaza Strip have praised the shooting.
"Hamas praises the attack and regards it as a natural response to the crimes of the occupation," said Sami Abu-Zuhri, a Hamas spokesman in Gaza.
Militant groups have in the past staged attacks to sabotage peace efforts.
The Israeli and Palestinian leaders are due to meet President Barack Obama for dinner at the White House on Wednesday.
Formal talks are due to begin on Sept 2 - their first direct negotiations for nearly two years.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said protecting Israel's security interests will be his top priority in the negotiations.
Before leaving for Washington, Mr Netanyahu told his Likud Party he would seek "real arrangements on the ground" that ensure the security of Israelis.
"True peace is not a short break between wars, it's not a short break between terror attacks," he said.
"True peace is something that persists dozens of years, that stands well for generations."
President Barack Obama hopes to forge a peace agreement within one year.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Mr Netanyahu will meet separately with Mr Obama on Wednesday.
Then, joined by Jordan's King Abdullah and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, they will attend a White House dinner intended to set the stage for the launch of formal talks a day later at the State Department.
Jordan and Egypt are the only two Arab nations with peace deals with Israel.
More follows...
Dixey'll be along shortly with his spin...maybe they shot
Themselves by accident ::) ...filth!
Quote from: Tyrones own on August 31, 2010, 08:00:49 PM
Dixey'll be along shortly with his spin...maybe they shot
Themselves by accident ::) ...filth!
I agree TO - the people who did this (assuming the report is accurate) are filth. However, why can you and others of your ilk not say the same about the Israeli army when they blow up a school that they had just moved women and children into as they did on the last invasion of Gaza and was widely reported by the UN?
Post a link...i'd like to read that!
* an unbiased one ;)
Quote from: Tyrones own on August 31, 2010, 08:24:24 PM
Post a link...i'd like to read that!
* an unbiased one ;)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7814054.stm
And Irish head of the un in Gaza
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeVtXALZS_o
Did they not carry these reports in the us media? I wonder why not.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 31, 2010, 09:16:10 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on August 31, 2010, 08:24:24 PM
Post a link...i'd like to read that!
* an unbiased one ;)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7814054.stm
And Irish head of the un in Gaza
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeVtXALZS_o
Did they not carry these reports in the us media? I wonder why not.
Quite the comedian :D Well Fox didn't carry it anyway cause it never actually happened...and so they wisely didn't run with it
that's why they're the #1 cable news network in America ;)
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Did_Israel_Shell_a_UN_School_The_Truth_Exposed.asp
very quick to call them filth where was your shock at the lost of innocent life on the ship on the 29 pages previous to this.......typical, you brand everyone else as blinkered and only seeing one side...... ???
on your previous post, maybe if Israel hadn't had a media blackout on Gaza during that period more accurate reports could have come out first and maybe so many civilians wouldn't have been injured/killed regardless of where they were standing
Quote from: Tyrones own on September 01, 2010, 02:05:53 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 31, 2010, 09:16:10 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on August 31, 2010, 08:24:24 PM
Post a link...i'd like to read that!
* an unbiased one ;)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7814054.stm
And Irish head of the un in Gaza
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeVtXALZS_o
Did they not carry these reports in the us media? I wonder why not.
Quite the comedian :D Well Fox didn't carry it anyway cause it never actually happened...and so they wisely didn't run with it
that's why they're the #1 cable news network in America ;)
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Did_Israel_Shell_a_UN_School_The_Truth_Exposed.asp
So every major news agency in the west is wrong but "honestreporting.com" is right, have a look at every other story on that page. I'll simplfy for you Hamas/Palestinians = Bad, Israel = Good. You are totally deluded if you take that rubbish to be true. Did you listen to Ging describe how they warned of Israel from shelling as they were in constant radio contact. I suppose they didn't bomb the UN compound either? You have just shown what a completely biased fool you are TO in all your glory. You are no Irishman thats for sure
Funny you must have missed this bit during a follow up interview with Ging;
"We have provided the GPS co-ordinates of every single one of our locations," he told the BBC. "They are clearly marked with UN insignia, flags flying, lights shining on the flags at night. It's very clear that these are United Nations installations."
Later, in the Globe and Mail investigation, Ging:
acknowledged in an interview this week that all three Israeli mortar shells landed outside the school and that "no one was killed in the school."
"I told the Israelis that none of the shells landed in the school," he said.[/b]
So who is actually delusionally misinformed here in running with the story of the Evil Israeli's intentionally bombing a school... idiot!
QuoteYou are no Irishman thats for sure
This isn't the first time I've had this leveled at me...so go ahead and enlighten me as to what accurately defines
what it means to be an Irishman in your wee world.... ::) and while you're at it, fill me in on who the fcuk you think you are!
Shame on you myles - I'll have to explain it for you. You see because the shells landed outside the school compound its ok that they killed 40 odd people. Israel's military genius is so precise that the knew exactly where the shells would land and they surgically removed 40 odd terrorists who were standing around outside the school. You probably wouldn't understand how this was possible and it might look risky to have shells detonating so close to a school that people in the school compound get injured by the shrapnel but really this was a surgically targetted miliary exercise. ;D
Myles - there really is no point arguing with someone as deluded as our friend here but remember if this could happen to an Irish guy going over there, what hope is there for the millions who couldn't know any better.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3948049,00.html
Soldier admits to looting Turkish ship
Military Prosecution set to file indictments against officer, two soldiers suspected of involvement in theft of laptops, other equipment from Mavi Marmara after it was seized by commandos. 'Their behavior was disgraceful,' IDF official say.
Less than two weeks after Ynet reported on the looting of the Mavi Marmara, the Military Prosecution is expected to file an indictment Thursday against a soldier who admitted to stealing a laptop computer, two camera and a compass belonging to the passengers of the Turkish vessel, which was seized by Israeli commandos as it was making its way to Gaza.
Nine Turkish citizens were killed in the May 31 incident. The ship's passengers were detained and later released.
Indictments are expected to be filed against two other suspects in the coming days. One of the suspects is an officer. An army official called the affair "one of the most embarrassing the IDF has known in recent years."
The soldiers involved are expected to be charged with looting, theft, dealing in stolen property and behavior unbefitting of a soldier.
IDF investigators obtained information indicating that computers stolen from the flotilla were being traded within the army. The probe found that among the suspects were commanders who were tasked with preventing unauthorized personnel from boarding the Marmara while it was docked in Ashdod's port.
According to the investigation, the suspected soldiers purchased the stolen goods from the commanders.
One of the soldiers, who was arrested last week, admitted to taking the equipment. The officer, a second lieutenant, denied the allegations. However, Military Police believe he and a soldier stole a number of laptops, and then sold them to another soldier.
An indictment is also expected to be filed against a soldier suspected of stealing a laptop and an handheld video game device from the ship.
The soldiers who allegedly purchased the stolen goods are also expected to stand trial, but the charges filed against them will apparently not be as stringent.
"The soldiers' behavior was disgraceful, and they should be brought to justice," an IDF official said
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/irishman-held-in-israel-lsquothreatened-by-top-official-close-to-pmrsquo-14931606.html
Irishman held in Israel 'threatened by top official close to PM'
Thursday, 2 September 2010
The Donegal man detained in Israel after its commandos shot dead nine people on a flotilla of ships heading for Gaza has told the UN that he received a "serious threat" from an official close to the Israeli Prime Minister.
Fiachra O Luain from Carndonagh was second mate on the Challenger 1 and watched in horror as Israeli forces descended on the Mavi Marmara and opened fire.
The 28-year-old, who went to secondary school in Derry, said he had yet to decide whether he would return on the next aid convoy in October.
This week Mr O Luain submitted his statement of evidence to the United Nations Secretary General's Panel Of Inquiry.
In his statement, he reveals how before the raid he alerted Senator John Kerry's office in the US and the Irish Department for Foreign Affairs to a "serious threat" he received in an email from an official close to Binyamin Netanyahu — the same official with whom he had celebrated the Passover.
Their relationship deteriorated when the official learned Mr O Luain was on the flotilla.
In his evidence he said: "He wrote: 'Details have been sent to the Foreign Ministry... May you and your boat sink to the depths of the sea, may you know the punishment meted out to the enemies of God's Chosen People'. Knowing how close this man was to the Israeli Prime Minister, I realised how serious this threat was."
''The enemies of God's chosen people''
Therein lies the problem, these boys think they can do no wrong and they are an extension of God no matter what they do - couldn't see the big man upstairs running around nicking laptops never mind land grabbing, sinkin boats, making permanent refugee camps, killiing children etc etc
Quote from: Banana Man on September 02, 2010, 02:49:58 PM
''The enemies of God's chosen people''
Therein lies the problem, these boys think they can do no wrong and they are an extension of God no matter what they do
Indeed. Mind you, they're probably not alone in this conceit. Everyone claims to have God on their side. The Zionists are just one of the few to state it explicitly.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 02, 2010, 09:39:23 AM
Shame on you myles - I'll have to explain it for you. You see because the shells landed outside the school compound its ok that they killed 40 odd people. Israel's military genius is so precise that the knew exactly where the shells would land and they surgically removed 40 odd terrorists who were standing around outside the school. You probably wouldn't understand how this was possible and it might look risky to have shells detonating so close to a school that people in the school compound get injured by the shrapnel but really this was a surgically targetted miliary exercise. ;D
Myles - there really is no point arguing with someone as deluded as our friend here but remember if this could happen to an Irish guy going over there, what hope is there for the millions who couldn't know any better.
You may be right seanie but i'm conflicted personally as to which is the more dispicable act; Palestinian scum using children and schools as shields from which to shell from or the Israeli's blindly countering :-\
Just have him check his facts before making a fool out of himself next time
Was this not a UN school? Were the UN shelling Israel - is that what you are saying?
Quote from: Hardy on September 02, 2010, 03:29:27 PM
Quote from: Banana Man on September 02, 2010, 02:49:58 PM
''The enemies of God's chosen people''
Therein lies the problem, these boys think they can do no wrong and they are an extension of God no matter what they do
Indeed. Mind you, they're probably not alone in this conceit. Everyone claims to have God on their side. The Zionists are just one of the few to state it explicitly.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."
Absurdities like the promise of martyrdom with the 72 virgins an all for committing attrocities the world over...hey I'm hearing ye :o
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 02, 2010, 03:40:30 PM
Was this not a UN school? Were the UN shelling Israel - is that what you are saying?
Where did I say that ???Read it again like a good lad
Quote from: Tyrones own on September 02, 2010, 03:38:37 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 02, 2010, 09:39:23 AM
Shame on you myles - I'll have to explain it for you. You see because the shells landed outside the school compound its ok that they killed 40 odd people. Israel's military genius is so precise that the knew exactly where the shells would land and they surgically removed 40 odd terrorists who were standing around outside the school. You probably wouldn't understand how this was possible and it might look risky to have shells detonating so close to a school that people in the school compound get injured by the shrapnel but really this was a surgically targetted miliary exercise. ;D
Myles - there really is no point arguing with someone as deluded as our friend here but remember if this could happen to an Irish guy going over there, what hope is there for the millions who couldn't know any better.
You may be right seanie but i'm conflicted personally as to which is the more dispicable act; Palestinian scum using children and schools as shields from which to shell from or the Israeli's blindly countering :-\
Just have him check his facts before making a fool out of himself next time
Your the fool buddy - check your post above, you are supposedly in conflict between Palestinian "scum" and Israelis "countering". Seems like your mind is not in much conflict at all despite all the evidence out there. Do you honestly believe what the US media is giving you? You think supposedly being from the North (which I am doubting the more muck you write) that you would have developed the ability to see through the official line of big armies and their agencies. Now take down that flag of the republic from your avatar, you are an embarrassment to all republican ideals.
UN chief releases Israeli, Palestinian reports on alleged war crimes during conflict
By Edith M. Lederer (CP) – Aug 18, 2010
Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on Wednesday released the results of Israeli and Palestinian investigations into alleged war crimes during the conflict in Gaza in the winter of 2008-2009 which did not appear to include any input from Gaza's Hamas rulers.
The U.N. chief introduced the 247-page report with brief observations that made no comment on the submissions by Israel or the Palestinians, which were requested by the General Assembly. He said it was important to respect international human rights and humanitarian law and expressed hope that "steps will be taken wherever there are credible allegations of violations."
Last November, the 192-member world body gave Israel and the Palestinians three months to undertake "independent, credible investigations" into the findings of a U.N.-appointed expert panel chaired by South African Judge Richard Goldstone. In February, it gave both sides an additional five months to conduct their inquiries.
The 575-page Goldstone report concluded that both sides committed war crimes and possible crimes against humanity during the Gaza war, in which 13 Israelis and almost 1,400 Palestinians were killed, including many civilians.
It said Israel used disproportionate force, deliberately targeted civilians, used Palestinians as human shields, and destroyed civilian infrastructure during its three-week incursion into the Gaza Strip from Dec. 27, 2008 to Jan. 18, 2009 to root out Palestinian rocket squads. It accused Palestinian armed groups including Hamas of deliberately targeting civilians and trying to spread terror through rocket attacks on southern Israel.
Both sides rejected the charges when the Goldstone report was issued, and their positions remained unchanged in the newly released reports.
The General Assembly resolution warned of possible "further action" by U.N. bodies, including the Security Council, if both sides didn't conduct independent and credible investigations. Whether the assembly plans any follow-up to Wednesday's report remains to be seen.
Human Rights Watch called on governments and the U.N. to maintain pressure on Israel and Hamas to conduct thorough and impartial investigations, and to provide justice to the victims of abuses.
"Israeli investigations still fall far short of being thorough and impartial, while Hamas appears to have done nothing at all to investigate alleged violations," the rights group's program director Iain Levine said in a statement. "We regret that the secretary-general merely passed on the reports he received from Israel and the Palestinian side instead of making the failings of these investigations clear."
U.N. spokesman Martin Nesirky said Ban was asked by the General Assembly to solicit investigation reports from both sides but was not requested "to express his views on the responses received."
The Israeli military submitted its report on July 21 and said it has made "numerous changes to its operational procedures and policies in order to further enhance the protection of civilians from the hazards of battle and the protection of private property during military operations."
The report said Israel has launched more than 150 investigations in allegations of misconduct or violations of international law during the Gaza conflict. It said the military has opened 47 criminal investigations and initiated criminal prosecutions of four soldiers in separate incidents.
The Palestinian report was submitted by the Independent Investigation Commission established by the Palestinian Authority, which controls the West Bank but lost control of Gaza to Hamas in 2007.
It said "the numbers and the facts speak for themselves" and accused Israel of acting with impunity, disregarding international law, and justifying "its indiscriminate, disproportionate and collective punishment measures against the Palestinian people, as if no limitations applied to Israel."
The Palestinian commission said that since Hamas took over Gaza "legal institutions are being undermined and this has resulted in a high number of violations of international human rights law, negatively impacting the situation of human rights in Gaza." But the commission emphasized "that there is no moral equivalency" between Israel's violations of international humanitarian and human rights law during the Gaza conflict "and the situation concerning observance and respect for human rights in Gaza by Hamas."
Copyright © 2010 The Canadian Press. All rights reserved.
Thousands in Turkey have welcomed the return of the lead vessel of an Ankara-backed aid convoy, which took a deadly Israeli assault on its way to the Gaza Strip.
Mavi Marmara rolled into the dock at the port of Sarayburnu in Istanbul in northwestern Turkey on Sunday -- reportedly boarded by the survivors of the Israeli assault, AFP said.
A thousands-strong crowd joyously received the vessel, some waving Turkish and Palestinian flags and chanting "Allah is Great."
The ship headed for the Gaza Strip earlier in the year as part of a six-vessel convoy, carrying approximately 750 human rights activists and around 10,000 tons of construction material, medical equipment and school supplies.
Israeli commandos violently attacked the human rights campaigners on May 31, killing nine Turkish activists and injuring around 50 others.
The attack prompted a strong international response and did the severest-yet damage to Tel Aviv's ties with Ankara.
On Saturday, Turkey's Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu repeated Ankara's demands of apology and compensation over the attack and said "nothing can cover up" the deadly act of aggression, the Associated Press reported.
Following the onslaught, the activists were expelled and the cargos were transferred to the Israeli port of Ashdod to the south of Tel Aviv. Reports, meanwhile, pointed to Israeli forces' appropriating and misusing the activists' personal belongings.
Before heading for Istanbul, the ship was reportedly towed to the Turkish port of Iskenderun in the south in August. Forensic teams were said to have identified over 200 bullet holes in it, many of which had been painted over by Israel.
An upcoming Turkish movie, called Valley of the Wolves - Palestine -- an adaptation of TV series of the same name -- is to feature Mavi Marmara and the protagonist's capture of the military commander planning and ordering the attack.
Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Aid, also known as IHH, the Turkish rights group, which organized the Flotilla, said the ship is to part of a new fleet, which will leave for Gaza on May 31, 2011, AFP reported.
Today, Israel has released a report into its actions on the Mavi Marmara last year, when the ship - carrying aid as part of a flotilla to Gaza - was attacked by Israel, leading to the deaths of 9 Turks and the injuring of dozens more.
Viva Palestina's Kevin Ovenden, who was on board the Mavi Marmara when it was attacked by Israeli forces in May last year, said, "The claim by Israel's Turkel Commission that Israeli forces acted legally when they killed nine people aboard the Mavi Marmara, and left another brain dead, will be laughed out of court by all but the Israeli government and its most fanatical supporters.
"This whitewash commission was set up by the Netanyahu government, the same people who commissioned the assault on the aid ship. It is simply unfeasible to claim that, for example, the two men shot immediately to the left and right of me, were gunned down in some act of self-defence. They were shot from above. No Israeli commando was in sight of us when the bullets rang out.
"Israel has refused an independent international inquiry and instead was brazen enough to establish this farce. No Turkish official, lawyer or representative was allowed to take part. One of the only two international observers who was a fig-leaf for the commission's "impartiality" was Lord (David) Trimble. In the hours following the savage attacks, Trimble established a "Friends Of Israel" initiative. As a leading establishment figure in the north of Ireland, he refused for decades an independent inquiry into the killing of 14 unarmed civilians on the streets of Derry in 1972, the truth about the massacre only being officially acknowledged 38 years later with the report of the Saville inquiry.
"The United Nations Human Rights Council already found last year prima facie evidence of grave human rights abuses and war crimes aboard the Mavi Marmara. The UN report stated: "The conduct of the Israeli military and other personnel towards the flotilla passengers was not only disproportionate to the occasion but demonstrated levels of totally unnecessary and incredible violence. It betrayed an unacceptable level of brutality. Such conduct cannot be justified or condoned on security or any other grounds. It constituted grave violations of human rights law and international humanitarian law."
"Rather than entertaining this charade from Tel Aviv, the British government should demand that Israel and those responsible for the atrocity of Bloody Monday on the Mediterranean on 31 May last year are held to account and to the same universal standards of justice that are required of other states.
"Whatever risible PR Israel and its supporters attempt to spin, that is going to happen. And on the one year anniversary of the attack on the Mavi Marmara a second, bigger international aid effort will set sail for the point at where it was so brutally attacked and will ask, civil society organisations, religious groups, politicians, governments, and people of conscience around the world to demand that all relevant governments and international bodies all it safe passage to Gaza.
"Wikileaks has confirmed what independent Israeli researchers told us last year. The siege on Gaza is carefully calibrated by the Israeli government to keep the Palestinian people in a state of dependency, with their economy society hovering just above complete collapse.
"The French foreign minister Michele Alliot-Marie is the latest high profile visitor to Gaza and Palestine to call for an end to the blockade.
"The pressure to end this barbarous policy is increasing. I think I can speak for all those who were aboard the Mavi Marmara in saying that we are redoubling our efforts in 2011 to bring it to an end this year. We will be part of the next aid missions, by land, by sea and by air.
"This sick joke from an Israeli government that has already lost all international credibility will serve only to increase our determination to bring justice to the Palestinian people."
Sarah Colbourne, Director of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign and who was also onboard the Marvi Marmara when the Israeli Defence Force attacked the boat said:
"However hard the Israeli Government attempts to rewrite history, they can't rewrite the truth. The facts are simple, the Marvi Marmara was carrying essential humanitarian aid like baby milk to the besieged people of Gaza. There were no guns or weapons on board the boat, we were in international waters, when over 300 bullets – or one for every two people on board - rained down on us, killing 9 people and injuring over 50.
The actions of the Israeli Defence Force and the Israeli Government where by all international standards of law illegal as is their continued occupation of Gaza and the oppression of the Palestinian people."
Israel in serious diplomatic shit. Only total surrender acceptable.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-expose-peace-concession
A cache of thousands of pages of confidential Palestinian records covering more than a decade of negotiations with Israel and the US has been obtained by al-Jazeera TV and shared exclusively with the Guardian. The papers provide an extraordinary and vivid insight into the disintegration of the 20-year peace process, which is now regarded as all but dead.
The documents – many of which will be published by the Guardian over the coming days – also reveal:
• The scale of confidential concessions offered by Palestinian negotiators, including on the highly sensitive issue of the right of return of Palestinian refugees.
• How Israeli leaders privately asked for some Arab citizens to be transferred to a new Palestinian state.
• The intimate level of covert co-operation between Israeli security forces and the Palestinian Authority.
• The central role of British intelligence in drawing up a secret plan to crush Hamas in the Palestinian territories.
• How Palestinian Authority (PA) leaders were privately tipped off about Israel's 2008-9 war in Gaza.
As well as the annexation of all East Jerusalem settlements except Har Homa, the Palestine papers show PLO leaders privately suggested swapping part of the flashpoint East Jerusalem Arab neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah for land elsewhere.
Most controversially, they also proposed a joint committee to take over the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount holy sites in Jerusalem's Old City – the neuralgic issue that helped sink the Camp David talks in 2000 after Yasser Arafat refused to concede sovereignty around the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa mosques.
Palestinians in disarray as leak exposes leadership
Times Online - Sophie Tedmanson
Palestinian leaders are said to have agreed to Israel building 1,400 homes in Gilo
Yuval Nadal/AFP/Getty Images
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Palestinian leaders are said to have agreed to Israel building 1,400 homes in Gilo Yuval Nadal/AFP/Getty Images
Sophie Tedmanson
38 minutes ago
The Palestinian leadership was scrambling for credibility today as a Pandora's box of 1,600 documents held by the al-Jazeera news channel threatened to tear apart any semblance of unity in the occupied terrirories.
Al-Jazeera has promised that it will provide evidence of close co-operation between Israeli and Palestinian security forces and explosive claims that Shaul Mofaz, then the Israeli Defence Minister, allegedly co-ordinated with his Palestinian counterpart, General Nasser Yousef, over the assassination of a senior member of Hamas's security services in Gaza.
The channel said it also held evidence that the Palestinian Authority was tipped off by Israel before it launched its Gaza offensive in December 2008.
Al-Jazeera has already published a series of documents showing how the Palestinian leadership made an unprecedented offer to allow Israel to annex almost all of the Jewish settlements it has built in east Jerusalem during negotiations with the previous Israeli Government.
Despite the offer, the Israeli negotiating team, headed by Tzipi Livni, then the Foreign Minister, rejected the offer because it did not include all the settlements, the documents published by al-Jazeera said.
This morning the Palestinian leadership fought to repair the damage. Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian negotiator named in the documents, dismissed the report as "lies and half truths". When questioned by al-Jazeera, Mr Erekat said the Palestinian leadership had "nothing to hide'' and said most of the report of the negotiations was "a pack of lies''.
According to the documents Mr Erakat told the Israeli team that "we are offering you the biggest Yerushalayim in history. But we must talk about the concept of al-Quds", using first the Hebrew word for Jerusalem, then the Arabic. "We have taken your interests and concerns into account but not all. This is the first time in Palestinian-Israeli history in which such a suggestion is officially made."
However, the Israelis reportedly turned down the offer because it did not include the settlement of Har Homa, on the edge of Jerusalem and overlooking Bethlehem, nor the eastern settlement suburb of Maale Aduumim.
The talks, held from late 2007 until the Israeli military offensive into Gaza at the end of 2008, were held in absolute secrecy and the cache of documents which al-Jazeera said it had obtained are the first time in-depth information about the substance and tone of the negotiations has been divulged. The revelations are likely to be highly damaging to both sides. The Palestinian population is liable to be shocked by how much their leadership was willing to give up, displaying their weakness. The news will be grist for Hamas, which has accused the West Bank administration of President Abbas of caving in to Israel and which has said the only way to win territory is to fight for it.
The chief Palestinian negotiator in the 2008 talks, Ahmed Qureia, claimed that "many parts of the documents were fabricated, as part of the incitement against the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian leadership".
He denied making an offer about the Jewish enclaves in east Jerusalem, claiming that Israel refused to discuss the issue.
The release comes at a very sensitive time after US-brokered talks collapsed in September last year over the issue of continued Israeli settlement expansion, and as the Palestinian Authority is trying to build a de facto state by August this year.
Philip Crowley, the US State Department spokesman, said overnight that Washington was reviewing the alleged Palestinian documents, but added: "we cannot vouch for their veracity".
"The US remains focused on a two-state solution and will continue to work with the parties to narrow existing differences on core issues," Mr Crowley wrote on his Twitter account overnight.
At the weekend Mr Abbas warned that if there was no breakthrough in the peace process, there was a risk of a new fighting breaking out.
The shit has well and truely hit the fan with the release of these documents. The Palestinian Authority have been known for years to be corrupt, and this is the final nail in their coffin. No doubt they will have to stand down over these leaks.
The main point for everyone in the release of these documents is the fact that Israel is not interested in peace. Their only goal is to get as much land as they can, preferably all of it, and to get rid of the Palestinian people currently living on it.
The docements reveal that the PA served up on a silver plate major concessions, and they were all refused by Israel. The peace talks are finished and the idea of 2 states is also gone. I can see a groundsweel of support for Hamas is just around the corner, and Israel will reget that they didn't do a deal with the corrupt PA when they had a chance.
It is all going to be very interesting over the comming days and weeks. Abbas and co could have to flee just like the Tunisian President.......... The middle east is rapidly changing, and with a day of protests planned for Tuesday in Egypt, don't be surprised to see Mubarak running for cover........
Israel reminds me of that Fritzl man who imprisoned his daughter in the basement and raped her regularly for over 20 years. She ended up having some of his children and they lived in the basement and never saw the light and developed dreadful health problems. Above ground Fritzl was the epitome of respectability. He did everything to ensure she wouldn't escape but eventually the oldest child became so ill that she had to go to the doctor and the whole thing broke down.
Fritzl built a very complex system of control around an absurdity. It started off as a sexual urge and developed into a monstrosity. The biggest question was how Fritzl thought he could get away with it.
And so it is with Israel. The idea of a Jewish state running from the Jordan to the Med was very compelling. But how to achieve it ? Very Fritzl.
The PA has outlived its usefulness. But the people are still there.
Quote from: give her dixie on January 24, 2011, 10:59:25 AM
The shit has well and truely hit the fan with the release of these documents. The Palestinian Authority have been known for years to be corrupt, and this is the final nail in their coffin. No doubt they will have to stand down over these leaks.
The main point for everyone in the release of these documents is the fact that Israel is not interested in peace. Their only goal is to get as much land as they can, preferably all of it, and to get rid of the Palestinian people currently living on it.
The docements reveal that the PA served up on a silver plate major concessions, and they were all refused by Israel. The peace talks are finished and the idea of 2 states is also gone. I can see a groundsweel of support for Hamas is just around the corner, and Israel will reget that they didn't do a deal with the corrupt PA when they had a chance.
It is all going to be very interesting over the comming days and weeks. Abbas and co could have to flee just like the Tunisian President.......... The middle east is rapidly changing, and with a day of protests planned for Tuesday in Egypt, don't be surprised to see Mubarak running for cover........
I was just about to say that, if anything Hamas are going to be even stronger than before.
Some links for more articles released today:
The United States proposed giving Palestinian refugees land in South America as a radical solution to a problem that has haunted Middle East peace talks for decades.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/condoleezza-rice-palestinian-refugees-south-america?intcmp=239
The Obama administration has privately made clear that it will not allow any change of Palestinian leadership in the West Bank, the leaked papers reveal, let alone any repetition of the Hamas election victory that briefly gave the Islamists control of the Palestinian Authority five years ago.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/us-threat-palestinians-leadership-funds?intcmp=239
Barack Obama lifts then crushes Palestinian peace hopesSecret papers reveal Palestinian frustration at lack of decisions but Middle East envoy warns against blaming US president
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/barack-obama-palestinian-peace-hopes?intcmp=239
Palestinians agreed only 10,000 refugees could return to Israel. Secret papers reveal Palestininian negotiators privately accepted Israeli offer of 1,000 refugees a year over 10 years
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/palestinians-10000-refugees-return-israel?intcmp=239
Papers reveal how Palestinian leaders gave up fight over refugees
• Negotiators agreed just 10,000 to return
• PLO agreed Israel could be a 'Jewish state'
• US suggested Palestinians live in Latin America
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/papers-palestinian-leaders-refugees-fight?intcmp=239
The sooner the corrupt Palestinian Authority is run out of the West Bank, the better. The Palestinians should hold free and democratic elections, and elect someone that isn't prepared to sell them or their rights out to Israel/US.
Following the revolution in Tunisia, masses of people are rising up across the middle east and are preparing to kick out the US backed and controlled brutal dictators, who have been in power for way too long.
Tomorrow a day of protest is planned in Egypt, and in Algeria and Jordan mass demonstrations have been on going on a daily basis for days now.
The political landscape is rapidly changing, and for the better. People deserve to elect their own leaders, and not have dictators put in place by the US. Sure after all, didn't the US and the UK invade Iraq to install "democracy"? They must be severly embassased after spending billions of dollars and then see the Tunisians overthrow a dictator and face democratic elections without a cent from uncle sam!
We are living in interesting times.........
Wipe the egg off your face ye fecking clown...damage control and back pedaling at it's finest :-[
Embarrassing or what :D
Quote from: Tyrones own on January 25, 2011, 04:59:06 AM
Wipe the egg off your face ye fecking clown...damage control and back pedaling at it's finest :-[
Embarrassing or what :D
who's that to?
Quote from: Banana Man on January 25, 2011, 08:54:47 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on January 25, 2011, 04:59:06 AM
Wipe the egg off your face ye fecking clown...damage control and back pedaling at it's finest :-[
Embarrassing or what :D
who's that to?
Do yourself a favour and ignore Americas own.
How do the Palestinians stand a chance when there are freaks like "GOD TV" around.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg8Y5y73M18&feature=player_embedded#!
http://www.turkel-committee.gov.il/content-107.html
Read this joke of an Israeli whitewash report. Signed off by Mr Drumcree.
Quote from: Banana Man on January 25, 2011, 08:54:47 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on January 25, 2011, 04:59:06 AM
Wipe the egg off your face ye fecking clown...damage control and back pedaling at it's finest :-[
Embarrassing or what :D
who's that to?
Who else....the resident Pied Piper himself.
Quote from: seafoid on January 25, 2011, 03:12:55 PM
http://www.turkel-committee.gov.il/content-107.html
Read this joke of an Israeli whitewash report. Signed off by Mr Drumcree.
A whitewash that Widgery would be proud of........
However, The United Nations Human Rights Council already found last year prima facie evidence of grave human rights abuses and war crimes aboard the Mavi Marmara. The UN report stated:
"The conduct of the Israeli military and other personnel towards the flotilla passengers was not only disproportionate to the occasion but demonstrated levels of totally unnecessary and incredible violence. It betrayed an unacceptable level of brutality. Such conduct cannot be justified or condoned on security or any other grounds. It constituted grave violations of human rights law and international humanitarian law."http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4018950,00.html
The Irish government decided Tuesday to upgrade the Palestinian diplomatic mission in the country to an embassy.
Ireland is the first European Union member to announce such a move, which was initiated by the Irish foreign minister. However, the upgrade does not constitute Irish recognition of a Palestinian state.
According to the decision, the head of the Palestinian mission will become an ambassador in Dublin and will present his credentials to the Irish president.
Israel fears other European countries may follow suit, as is the case in Latin America, where a number of countries, including Brazil, Chile and Argentina, have recognized a "free and sovereign" Palestinian state over the past few months. Peru recognized "Palestine" on Monday.
"Israel regrets Ireland's move, but is not surprised by it due to (Ireland's) biased policy regarding the conflict over the years," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
The Foreign Ministry's Communications Director of Yossi Levy said Dublin's decision "does not advance the peace process because it bolsters the Palestinians' illusion that they can advance their goals without returning to the negotiation table."
In February Peru is scheduled to host the Summit of South American-Arab Countries (ASPA). Israel is concerned that during the summit Brazil may initiate a resolution under which more Latin American countries will recognize a Palestinian state.
Quote from: give her dixie on January 25, 2011, 03:42:35 PM
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4018950,00.html
The Irish government decided Tuesday to upgrade the Palestinian diplomatic mission in the country to an embassy.
Ireland is the first European Union member to announce such a move, which was initiated by the Irish foreign minister. However, the upgrade does not constitute Irish recognition of a Palestinian state.
According to the decision, the head of the Palestinian mission will become an ambassador in Dublin and will present his credentials to the Irish president.
Israel fears other European countries may follow suit, as is the case in Latin America, where a number of countries, including Brazil, Chile and Argentina, have recognized a "free and sovereign" Palestinian state over the past few months. Peru recognized "Palestine" on Monday.
"Israel regrets Ireland's move, but is not surprised by it due to (Ireland's) biased policy regarding the conflict over the years," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
The Foreign Ministry's Communications Director of Yossi Levy said Dublin's decision "does not advance the peace process because it bolsters the Palestinians' illusion that they can advance their goals without returning to the negotiation table."
In February Peru is scheduled to host the Summit of South American-Arab Countries (ASPA). Israel is concerned that during the summit Brazil may initiate a resolution under which more Latin American countries will recognize a Palestinian state.
Fair play to Micheal Martin.
Turkey unveils its final report on Israeli attack on Gaza-bound aid convoy
Turkey on Friday made public its report on the May 31 Israeli attack on a humanitarian aid convoy that killed eight Turks and an American of Turkish origin and injured many others.
Turkey repeatedly asked Israel to officially apologize and pay compensation for all the loss and damages caused by its illegal attack.
The report, prepared by Turkish National Commission of Inquiry, has been submitted to the Panel of Inquiry set up by the UN Secretary-General in August 2010, in accordance with the Presidential Statement issued by the UN Security Council in June 2010 which called for a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation conforming to international standards.
The executive summary of the report recalled that Israeli military forces on the early hours of May 31, 2010 attacked in international waters an international and multi-faith convoy of six ships organized by a coalition of NGOs from 37 countries transporting certified humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip.
"The attack took place 72 nautical miles from the nearest coast, and 64 nautical miles from the zone declared unlawfully, as will be seen, blockaded by Israel. As a result of the attack, eight Turkish citizens and one US citizen of Turkish descent were killed. Over 70 passengers from a host of nationalities were wounded. One of these remains in a coma to this day," the summary said.
The executive summary of the report continues: The vessels that set sail from Turkey had been duly inspected for security, immigration and customs. The passengers on board, their personal belongings and the large volume of humanitarian aid had also been thoroughly checked. It was firmly established that there were no firearms or any sort of weapon on board the vessels. Those Turkish ports from where the ships in the convoy set sail are duly certified under the International Ship and Port Facility Security Code (ISPS) of the International Maritime Organization.
The Israeli forces mounted a full-fledged and well-planned attack with frigates, helicopters, zodiacs, submarines, and elite combat troops heavily armed with machine guns, laser-guided rifles, pistols and modified paintball rifles. The Israeli soldiers shot from the helicopter onto the Mavi Marmara using live ammunition and killing two passengers before any Israeli soldier descended on the deck. During the attack, excessive, indiscriminate and disproportionate force was used by the Israeli soldiers against the civilians on board. The Israeli military action was of excessive disproportion to such magnitude that the United Nations Human Rights Council Fact-Finding Mission used the terms 'totally unnecessary and incredible violence.. unacceptable level of brutality.' The passengers only exercised a lawful right of self-defense, without any firearms, against the armed attack of the Israeli forces.
Once the Israeli forces took over the vessel, instead of exercising caution and restraint, they continued to brutalize and terrorize the passengers, abusing them physically, verbally and psychologically. The passengers were beaten, kicked, elbowed, punched, deprived of food and water, handcuffed, left exposed to sun, sprayed with sea-water for hours, and denied toilet access.
During and after the ten hours of sailing to the port of Ashdod in Israel, most of the passengers were kept handcuffed. Some of them were stripped and searched; women were subjected to sexually humiliating treatment; one of them, a journalist, was forced to strip multiple times and a metal detector was placed between her legs.
All passengers were forced to sign incriminatory statements in Hebrew which most did not even understand; they were not allowed access to legal assistance, or to consular officials, nor provided with proper and timely medical care. They were denied adequate food and were confined to restricted spaces with extreme temperatures.
The Israeli officials confiscated all property belonging to the passengers. Aside from the unlawful seizure of personal property, evidences of critical importance to shed light on the attack was destroyed, tampered with or despoiled.
The severe abuse against the passengers continued throughout their stay in Israel, including their transport to prison/hospital and therefrom to the Ben Gurion Airport which was the scene to the second most brutal episode in this tragedy. The passengers who arrived at the airport, exhausted by the ordeal they were subjected to, were taunted, paraded as terrorists and enemies, verbally abused, spat on, bullied, pushed around and manhandled just to spark the slightest reaction which would be countered with massive retribution, resulting in mass beatings where officers brutalizing the passengers were shielded from view by their colleagues.
The bodies of the deceased were completely washed and repatriated to Turkey without any accompanying medical and autopsy reports. The Mavi Marmara itself, when returned after being held for 66 days in Ashdod, had been scrubbed down thoroughly, blood stains completely washed off, bullet holes painted over; ship records, Captain?s log, computer hardware, ship documents seized, CCTV cameras smashed, all photographic footage seized and presumably destroyed or withheld.
The unlawfulness of the attack put aside, the killing of nine civilian passengers on the Mavi Marmara was first and foremost a violation of the right to life enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and also in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) to which Israel has been a party since 1991. International law was also violated as a result of mistreatment of injured and other passengers on board of the Mavi Marmara and in Ashdod by the Israeli forces and officials.
Furthermore, the fact that the Israeli forces committed torture, engaged in degrading and inhuman treatment; forcibly deprived passengers of their human rights and fundamental freedoms, including the right to privacy, physical security and due process; and abused them physically and psychologically constitutes clear violations of the prohibition of torture and ill-treatment under Article 7 of the ICCPR and the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CAT) to which Israel has been a party since 1991. These acts also constitute a breach of Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR).
The Israeli attack on the humanitarian aid convoy in international waters constitutes a violation of freedom of navigation and safety of navigation on the high seas. Freedom of navigation on the high seas is a long-standing rule of customary international law. The 1958 High Seas Convention and the 1982 United Nations Law of the Sea Convention codify what widely recognized to be the customary international rules of the freedom of the high seas. One of the components of freedom of the high seas is the exclusive jurisdiction of the flag State.
The Law of the Sea restricts the right of warships to seize a foreign ship, and its property and arrest the persons on board only in the case of pirate ships or aircraft.
Israel's failure to recognize its armed conflict with Hamas as one of international character precludes it from establishing any lawful naval blockade off the Gaza Strip. Since Israel's naval 'blockade' on the Gaza Strip is unlawful, any act it performs as a function of this 'blockade' is also unlawful par excellence.
Israel's naval 'blockade' against the Gaza Strip, as it existed on 31 May 2010, was also in violation of the principles of international law governing blockade, as laid down in the San Remo Manual.
Even assuming, in arguendum, the validity of the basis of Israel's 'blockade', its implementation would render it unlawful. It was excessive, unreasonable, and disproportionate to any military advantage to be achieved in relation to its impact on the civilian population. This has been documented by numerous UN agencies and the international community at large.
Numerous official statements acknowledged that Israel's blockade was 'illegal' and had to be lifted, describing the blockade as 'collective punishment on civilians.'
The blockade failed to meet the other requirements of a lawful naval blockade under international law, such as specifying the duration and extent of the blockade.
Israel retains effective control over the Gaza Strip and is generally recognized by the international community and the UN as the occupying power there. As a result, Israel cannot lawfully impose a blockade on the Gaza Strip. From this perspective also, the Israeli blockade is illegal and any interdiction based on such blockade is, by definition, unlawful.
Finally, it is a central principle of international law that when a state violates its international obligations, it has a duty to make reparations for the wrongs committed and provide for compensation.
This case is a critical litmus test for the international community in upholding the rule of law. No State should be allowed to act above the law. Impunity must give way to accountability. Israel must acknowledge its responsibility and accordingly convey a public apology to the Republic of Turkey and provide compensation for all damages and losses resulting from its unlawful attack.
The condemnation of Israel's attack is also crucial for the future of the right of navigation on the high seas. Otherwise, a dangerous precedential derogation from that paramount right will be established?with far-reaching ramifications that may not be accurately estimated today.
So dixie, how many did you say were killed in this attack???
Trim balls findings were predictable and appalling, what was also appalling was your fudging of the numbers of dead.
I hope the hoors pay compensation and they should get hammered in the courts but i doubt they will.
Five israelis, including three children, stabbed to death by Palestinian
The Israeli military are searching for the killer of five people murdered in a Jewish West Bank settlement early on Saturday, a military spokeswoman said.
Israeli media is reporting that the dead are all members of the same family – parents and three children. The victims – including an 11-year-old, a 3-year-old and an infant – were all stabbed in their sleep.
The military says it is sweeping the area in search of the perpetrator and has set up checkpoints throughout the West Bank. It has instructed all residents to stay in their homes during the extensive sweeps.
The military blocked the entrance to the northern West Bank settlement of Itamar, as soldiers poured
inside and a pair of ambulances departed.
The overnight attack is the first attack against settlers in months and the first of its kind and scope in years. It marks a rare outburst of violence during a relatively calm period.
It also comes as Israeli-Palestinian peace efforts are at a standstill and seems likely to complicate efforts to restart them.
Itamar is home to some of the West Bank's most fervent settlers. The attack took place in the middle of the night, on the Jewish Sabbath.
The attack was reminiscent of a similar one in Itamar in June 2002, during the height of the violent Palestinian uprising, when a gunman burst into the home of a family and opened fire.
Another two children were seriously injured.
Source?
Quote from: Trout on March 12, 2011, 10:39:02 AM
Five israelis, including three children, stabbed to death by Palestinian
The Israeli military are searching for the killer of five people murdered in a Jewish West Bank settlement early on Saturday, a military spokeswoman said.
Israeli media is reporting that the dead are all members of the same family – parents and three children. The victims – including an 11-year-old, a 3-year-old and an infant – were all stabbed in their sleep.
The military says it is sweeping the area in search of the perpetrator and has set up checkpoints throughout the West Bank. It has instructed all residents to stay in their homes during the extensive sweeps.
The military blocked the entrance to the northern West Bank settlement of Itamar, as soldiers poured
inside and a pair of ambulances departed.
The overnight attack is the first attack against settlers in months and the first of its kind and scope in years. It marks a rare outburst of violence during a relatively calm period.
It also comes as Israeli-Palestinian peace efforts are at a standstill and seems likely to complicate efforts to restart them.
Itamar is home to some of the West Bank's most fervent settlers. The attack took place in the middle of the night, on the Jewish Sabbath.
The attack was reminiscent of a similar one in Itamar in June 2002, during the height of the violent Palestinian uprising, when a gunman burst into the home of a family and opened fire.
Another two children were seriously injured.
No doubt plenty of innocent civilians will be arrested, tortured and maybe killed before they find the perpetrator.
Quote from: Trout on March 12, 2011, 10:39:02 AM
Five israelis, including three children, stabbed to death by Palestinian
The Israeli military are searching for the killer of five people murdered in a Jewish West Bank settlement early on Saturday, a military spokeswoman said.
Israeli media is reporting that the dead are all members of the same family – parents and three children. The victims – including an 11-year-old, a 3-year-old and an infant – were all stabbed in their sleep.
The military says it is sweeping the area in search of the perpetrator and has set up checkpoints throughout the West Bank. It has instructed all residents to stay in their homes during the extensive sweeps.
The military blocked the entrance to the northern West Bank settlement of Itamar, as soldiers poured
inside and a pair of ambulances departed.
The overnight attack is the first attack against settlers in months and the first of its kind and scope in years. It marks a rare outburst of violence during a relatively calm period.
It also comes as Israeli-Palestinian peace efforts are at a standstill and seems likely to complicate efforts to restart them.
Itamar is home to some of the West Bank's most fervent settlers. The attack took place in the middle of the night, on the Jewish Sabbath.
The attack was reminiscent of a similar one in Itamar in June 2002, during the height of the violent Palestinian uprising, when a gunman burst into the home of a family and opened fire.
Another two children were seriously injured.
The murdering of innocent kids is the act of cowardly scum. Unfortunately it is common in that part of the world.
By JANE HIRSCHMANN
Making a stand for human rights and dignity in Gaza
Gaza is crumbling under the weight of an Israeli siege backed by the Obama administration.
Roughly 80 percent of Palestinians in Gaza now depend on aid. Vast amounts of infrastructure destroyed in the Israeli attack of 2008-09 require repair. Thousands of families still live doubled up with relatives or are homeless.
Children are being short-changed educationally because of damaged and horribly overcrowded schools and a lack of textbooks. Their health is compromised by polluted water and food insecurity.
In response, over 1,000 human-rights workers from around the world will sail this June on a dozen boats for the Gaza Strip to highlight this human-made tragedy.
Our boat — the American boat — is The Audacity of Hope. It will be carrying approximately 60 students, nurses, artists, journalists and filmmakers, lawyers, academics and ordinary civilians of many beliefs from around the country. Many of us are Jewish.
Last May, Israeli forces stormed the Mavi Marmara and killed 9 passengers, including an American citizen. A fact-finding mission of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights found that the "circumstances of the killing of at least six of the passengers were in a manner consistent with an extra-legal, arbitrary and summary execution". All the civilian deaths on board the humanitarian vessel were inexcusable. Yet, once again, the Israeli government has threatened to initiate violence against us.
Israel insists it has a right to blockade Gaza, to keep its population on a restricted diet and to destroy its economy by cutting it off from international trade. The rest of the world disagrees. UN chief Ban Ki-moon has called the siege "unacceptable" and has said it must end immediately. Even President Obama has termed the siege "unsustainable", notwithstanding our government's full support of Israeli policy.
Israel states that the purpose of the blockade is to keep weapons out of the hands of the Hamas government in Gaza. There are many ways to do this without imprisoning 1.6 million people inside an area about twice the size of Washington, D.C. Gaza's children, women, elderly and other civilians pay the price for Israel's refusal to use international inspections, diplomacy and negotiations to achieve its goal. Under international law, this is known as collective punishment and can be regarded as a crime against humanity.
The US and European governments have not acted to end Israel's siege. Those of us sailing to Gaza on The Audacity of Hope have chosen to support international humanitarian law where our governments have not. We sail as an expression of human solidarity with the beleaguered people of Gaza.
We will be unarmed and nonviolent. Representatives from the media, who are invited to sail with us, will be able to testify to this. The boats' cargo will be open to international inspections before sailing. Our cargo consists of letters of solidarity to the people of Gaza from thousands of Americans.
As the world witnessed this year in Tunisia and Egypt, human solidarity is far more powerful than the force of arms. Despite the Israeli government's propaganda against us, we believe that most of the world opposes the attempt to reduce Gaza to desperation and dependence. Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Israel's former prime minister, put Israel's effort succinctly: "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." We reject this cruelty.
Nevertheless, the Israeli government has launched a scare campaign, accusing us of being "terrorists" with ties to Hamas, who are "willing to become martyrs". This is false. Our goal is to end the illegal siege of Gaza and highlight the injustice of Israel's ongoing occupation of the Palestinian territories.
The Audacity of Hope sails in peace and will not be deterred by Israeli threats. Our actions are very much in keeping with the moral impetus that drove Freedom Riders 50 years ago to travel south to stand nonviolently with African Americans against government-backed violence and Jim Crow discrimination. We intend to promote both Palestinian liberty from Israeli domination and an economic opening to the world for Gaza.
— Jane Hirschmann is a member of Jews Say No! in New York City and one of the national organizers of the US Boat to Gaza. Hirschmann has been active in anti-war efforts for the past four decades. She is a psychotherapist and the co-author of three books.
Quote from: Groucho on May 15, 2011, 09:59:31 AM
By JANE HIRSCHMANN
Making a stand for human rights and dignity in Gaza
Gaza is crumbling under the weight of an Israeli siege backed by the Obama administration.
Roughly 80 percent of Palestinians in Gaza now depend on aid. Vast amounts of infrastructure destroyed in the Israeli attack of 2008-09 require repair. Thousands of families still live doubled up with relatives or are homeless.
Children are being short-changed educationally because of damaged and horribly overcrowded schools and a lack of textbooks. Their health is compromised by polluted water and food insecurity.
In response, over 1,000 human-rights workers from around the world will sail this June on a dozen boats for the Gaza Strip to highlight this human-made tragedy.
Our boat — the American boat — is The Audacity of Hope. It will be carrying approximately 60 students, nurses, artists, journalists and filmmakers, lawyers, academics and ordinary civilians of many beliefs from around the country. Many of us are Jewish.
Last May, Israeli forces stormed the Mavi Marmara and killed 9 passengers, including an American citizen. A fact-finding mission of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights found that the "circumstances of the killing of at least six of the passengers were in a manner consistent with an extra-legal, arbitrary and summary execution". All the civilian deaths on board the humanitarian vessel were inexcusable. Yet, once again, the Israeli government has threatened to initiate violence against us.
Israel insists it has a right to blockade Gaza, to keep its population on a restricted diet and to destroy its economy by cutting it off from international trade. The rest of the world disagrees. UN chief Ban Ki-moon has called the siege "unacceptable" and has said it must end immediately. Even President Obama has termed the siege "unsustainable", notwithstanding our government's full support of Israeli policy.
Israel states that the purpose of the blockade is to keep weapons out of the hands of the Hamas government in Gaza. There are many ways to do this without imprisoning 1.6 million people inside an area about twice the size of Washington, D.C. Gaza's children, women, elderly and other civilians pay the price for Israel's refusal to use international inspections, diplomacy and negotiations to achieve its goal. Under international law, this is known as collective punishment and can be regarded as a crime against humanity.
The US and European governments have not acted to end Israel's siege. Those of us sailing to Gaza on The Audacity of Hope have chosen to support international humanitarian law where our governments have not. We sail as an expression of human solidarity with the beleaguered people of Gaza.
We will be unarmed and nonviolent. Representatives from the media, who are invited to sail with us, will be able to testify to this. The boats' cargo will be open to international inspections before sailing. Our cargo consists of letters of solidarity to the people of Gaza from thousands of Americans.
As the world witnessed this year in Tunisia and Egypt, human solidarity is far more powerful than the force of arms. Despite the Israeli government's propaganda against us, we believe that most of the world opposes the attempt to reduce Gaza to desperation and dependence. Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Israel's former prime minister, put Israel's effort succinctly: "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." We reject this cruelty.
Nevertheless, the Israeli government has launched a scare campaign, accusing us of being "terrorists" with ties to Hamas, who are "willing to become martyrs". This is false. Our goal is to end the illegal siege of Gaza and highlight the injustice of Israel's ongoing occupation of the Palestinian territories.
The Audacity of Hope sails in peace and will not be deterred by Israeli threats. Our actions are very much in keeping with the moral impetus that drove Freedom Riders 50 years ago to travel south to stand nonviolently with African Americans against government-backed violence and Jim Crow discrimination. We intend to promote both Palestinian liberty from Israeli domination and an economic opening to the world for Gaza.
— Jane Hirschmann is a member of Jews Say No! in New York City and one of the national organizers of the US Boat to Gaza. Hirschmann has been active in anti-war efforts for the past four decades. She is a psychotherapist and the co-author of three books.
More anti semite Jewish people I suppose? Will they get fair coverage on the us media I wonder.
Israel kills 15 on Nakba day
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/may/15/syria-libya-middle-east-unrest-live
the ultimate Israeli nightmare - the refugee issue comes alive again
Quote from: seafoid on May 15, 2011, 08:32:13 PM
Israel kills 15 on Nakba day
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/may/15/syria-libya-middle-east-unrest-live
the ultimate Israeli nightmare - the refugee issue comes alive again
Is it normal to call the victims of ethnic cleansing as refugees?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 15, 2011, 10:28:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 15, 2011, 08:32:13 PM
Israel kills 15 on Nakba day
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/may/15/syria-libya-middle-east-unrest-live
the ultimate Israeli nightmare - the refugee issue comes alive again
Is it normal to call the victims of ethnic cleansing as refugees?
Good question. Maybe the dispossessed ?
BDS video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKqA5c0fMu4&feature=player_embedded
36 Americans join Gaza flotilla
By ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: Jun 22, 2011 00:54 Updated: Jun 22, 2011 00:54
NEW YORK: A ship filled with American activists will join an international flotilla that will try to break Israel's naval blockade of the Gaza Strip, according to organizers.
Several of the 36 Americans who plan to sail on a US-flagged boat told a news conference that they are aware of the risks they'll be taking when they join the flotilla on a still-undetermined date later this month.
The vessel, which will be called "The Audacity of Hope," takes its name from one of President Barack Obama's books.
Hundreds of people on as many as nine vessels from countries including Canada, Australia, Belgium, Denmark and Germany are expected to form the flotilla around the end of the month. The exact departure date will depend upon weather and other conditions. Last year, nine activists died in a botched Israeli commando raid on a Turkish ship during a similar flotilla. US activists said they worried there could be a similar incident this year.
"Yeah, I'm scared. It's scary," said one of the American activists, Gale Courey Toensing of Canaan, Connecticut. "But it's not as scary as what the Palestinian people have to live with every day." Ray McGovern, a former military intelligence officer and CIA analyst, said many friends have asked why he would join the group. "I don't want to be a martyr," acknowledged McGovern, adding that he hoped to draw attention to the people in Gaza.
The Israeli mission to the UN did not comment on the announcement.
Richard A. Levy, a Jewish attorney from New York, is among the American activists preparing for the journey. He said US State Department officials warned them that they could provoke Israel, but "I think it's very important that Americans are on this boat, and that Jews are on this boat."
Also among those on the US boat will be Medea Benjamin, cofounder of the women's peace group CodePink and the San Francisco rights organization Global Exchange. She said the flotilla would focus new attention on US policy on Israel and the Palestinians.
"This is really going to force the US to reflect on its positions toward Israel," Benjamin said, especially amid a push by the Palestinians to have the US declare Palestine a member of the world body in September.
"What will this say to the Arab world amid the ongoing Arab spring if the US votes against the creation of a Palestinian state?" Benjamin asked. "That will put the US in bind."
Hilarious panic in Israel over a few ships bringing letters to Gaza
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-fears-gaza-flotilla-activists-may-try-to-kill-idf-soldiers-1.369923
"Senior officials in Jerusalem said Monday that Israel has received information that organizers of the Gaza flotilla may be bringing chemical substances on the ships to use against Israeli soldiers to prevent them from boarding the ships.The senior officials also said that Israel had been notified that several extremists among the Gaza flotilla participants had recently claimed that they intend on "shedding the blood of IDF soldiers."
Very interesting video on the activists who are in Greece. If Americans get to hear what they have to say Israel is finished.
Even PJ Crowley says Israel is acting against its own self interest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnyh-lZDLVw&feature=player_embedded
Irish Flotilla Boat subjected to suspected sabotage, and unable to take part. The following article from RTÉ refers to a Greek ship which suffered similar damage but there are also reports that an Italian boat also was damaged in the exact same way. If Giveherdixie/John is still reading the site, would you have any more updates?
From RTÉ:
"Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamon Gilmore has said he is concerned about reports that a Gaza bound Irish ship may have been sabotaged.
The Irish Ship to Gaza campaign says that €15,000 worth of damage has been caused to the MV Saoirse, which had been due to take part in a humanitarian mission to Gaza.
A chunk was found to be missing from the ship's propeller shaft and the activists say the damage could not have been done accidentally.
They say a Greek ship due to take part in the flotilla was also targeted in the same way.
Irish Ship to Gaza says it believes Israel is responsible for the damage.
The Israeli embassy in Dublin says it has no connection with the incident and no information on it.
Mr Gilmore said there would have to be an investigation by the Turkish authorities.
He said the Government would take a very serious view, if it turned out that the vessel had been sabotaged.
The Tánaiste said it was his view that those who intended travelling on the ship were well intended and well motivated.
Mr Gilmore's department had issued travel advice that it was dangerous to travel on the vessel and he said he met a delegation of those travelling a few weeks ago and subsequently met the Israeli ambassador.
The Israeli ambassador was told by Eamon Gilmore what that travel advice was, but also of the expectation was that there would not be a repeat of last year's attack on a flotilla bound for Gaza.
Mr Gilmore added that the people were engaged in what is a form of peaceful protest and expressed the hope that there would not be a disproportionate response.
The MV Saoirse will not be able to take part in the flotilla, but its Irish passengers are likely to be accommodated on other vessels.
United Left Alliance TD Richard Boyd Barrett earlier criticised both Taoiseach Enda Kenny and the Tánaiste for calling for safe passage for last year's flotilla while in opposition, but for failing to do so now they are in Government.
Protest
Around 60 people are protesting at the Spire on Dublin's O'Connell Street against what they say is a deliberate sabotage of the MV Saoirse."
They did the very same to the propeller shaft of a Swedish boat, the Juliano, which was also due to sail to Gaza...
Irish Gaza aid ship abandons mission (from the Irish Times)
KITTY HOLLAND
An Irish aid ship has been forced to pull out of a flotilla attempting to break the Gaza blockade after it was damaged while docked in Turkey.
The MV Saoirse , which was to take part in the 'Freedom Flotilla II' bringing medical aid and sports equipment to Gaza, was deemed unfit to sail after damage to its propeller shaft was discovered on Monday evening. The boat had been berthed in the Turkish coastal town of Gocek.
Six members of the Irish Ship to Gaza, including Dr Lane and former Leinster rugby player Trevor Hogan, plan to join an Italian ship, while seven other members will arrive back in Dublin airport tonight. Others hope to travel on other aid ships.
Claudia Saba, a Palestinian living in Ireland who has been involved in co-ordinating the flotilla, showed pictures of the damaged propeller shaft at a press-conference in Dublin today. The shaft appeared to be bent and to have had a piece cut from it.
Quoting Pat Fitzgerald, a fisherman based in Dunmore East, who is in Turkey and had been planning to sail in the MV Saoirse, she said the damage done "could not have been accidental".
Almost identical damage was found to have happened to the propeller shaft of a Swedish boat, the Juliano, which was also due to sail to Gaza.
Ms Saba described this as "too much a coincidence".
She said: "Had they gone out to sea, the pressure would have flooded the engine room. It was not damaged in such a way as to prevent it setting sail. It was damaged so it would fail at sea."
In a statement, the co-ordinator of the Irish Ship to Gaza campaign, Dr Fintan Lane, said the alleged "act of sabotage" was an appalling attack that should be condemned. He said the most likely saboteurs were Israel, as the "only likely party to have carried out this reckless action".
However, a spokesman for the Israeli embassy in Dublin the Israelis had no information about what happened to the boat.
"We are not connected to it in any way. We have heard about it in the media like anyone else," he said. "We again reiterate that we welcome any aid that Irish citizens may wish to donate to the Palestinian people and we will gladly help pass it to Gaza through the regular land crossings.
"We further wish to repeat what the United Nations data clearly shows: there has never been hunger in Gaza, there is no humanitarian crisis there. However, Israel together with the international community will continue to work to further improve conditions in Gaza despite Hamas' violent disregard for the needs of the people in Gaza and in southern Israel."
Rejecting these denials as implausible, Richard Boyd Barrett TD of the United Left Alliance said the "sabotage" was an "absolute outrage".
Independent TD Mick Wallace and Socialist TD Joe Higgins called on the Government to call the Israeli ambassador to account for the damage to the ship. Also present at the press conference were ULA TD Joan Collins, Socialist TD Clare Daly and Independent TD Thomas Pringle.
At a separate event, Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamonn Gilmore, said he was concerned about the alleged malicious damage to the vessel. "That is something I think that is going to have to be investigated initially by the Turkish authorities and I will take a very serious view of it if turns out that there was sabotage of that vessel."
Israel imposed a naval blockade after Hamas militants overran the Palestinian territory in 2007. It said it will not allow the flotilla to reach Gaza. Last year, an Israeli raid on a similar flotilla killed nine activists on a Turkish vessel. Each side blamed the other for the violence.
Almost €130,000 was raised in Ireland to fund the humanitarian mission, which planned to take medication and sports equipment to Gaza. Repairs to the vessel - which arrived in the port of Gocek in early June - will cost an estimated €15,000.
Exactly what does Israel have to do before its amabassador ito Ireland is shown the door?
They lie to the world and they lie to themselves
http://mondoweiss.net/2011/06/wikileaks-document-on-gaza-blockade-puts-israel%E2%80%99s-flotilla-hasbara-to-shame.html
However, a spokesman for the Israeli embassy in Dublin the Israelis had no information about what happened to the boat.
"We are not connected to it in any way. We have heard about it in the media like anyone else," he said. "We again reiterate that we welcome any aid that Irish citizens may wish to donate to the Palestinian people and we will gladly help pass it to Gaza through the regular land crossings.
"We further wish to repeat what the United Nations data clearly shows: there has never been hunger in Gaza, there is no humanitarian crisis there
70% of Gazan children suffer from malnutrition as a direct result of Israeli government policy.
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/291033-3
@ 15.12 caller rings to say he is sick and tired of American soldiers dying in Israel's wars
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 30, 2011, 09:34:51 PM
Exactly what does Israel have to do before its amabassador ito Ireland is shown the door?
Give us enough money to be independent of the USA. Then we can follow our moral compasses. If Turkey (incredibly) turns a blind eye to acts like this, obviously by Israel, on its sovereign territory, don't expect us to do anything.
http://url.ie/c45o
Israel was born out of Anti-British Terrorism (ie. The Stern Gang) and now that instinct for Terrorism is continuing.
Zionism seeks the destruction of Christendom and they hope that antagonising the Islamic World will do it for them (ie. Mass Immigration of Muslims with an agenda into Western Nations).
Quote from: ExcellentDriver on July 01, 2011, 12:16:34 AM
http://url.ie/c45o
Israel was born out of Anti-British Terrorism (ie. The Stern Gang) and now that instinct for Terrorism is continuing.
Zionism seeks the destruction of Christendom and they hope that antagonising the Islamic World will do it for them (ie. Mass Immigration of Muslims with an agenda into Western Nations).
Is there not enough to justify criticism of the Israeli Government without this lunacy?
Quote from: muppet on July 01, 2011, 12:19:30 AM
Quote from: ExcellentDriver on July 01, 2011, 12:16:34 AM
http://url.ie/c45o
Israel was born out of Anti-British Terrorism (ie. The Stern Gang) and now that instinct for Terrorism is continuing.
Zionism seeks the destruction of Christendom and they hope that antagonising the Islamic World will do it for them (ie. Mass Immigration of Muslims with an agenda into Western Nations).
Is there not enough to justify criticism of the Israeli Government without this lunacy?
Of course there is but in my experiences, this is typical of the brain washed ignorance that's
clearly evident when I'm back there ::)
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 01, 2011, 05:50:55 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 01, 2011, 12:19:30 AM
Quote from: ExcellentDriver on July 01, 2011, 12:16:34 AM
http://url.ie/c45o
Israel was born out of Anti-British Terrorism (ie. The Stern Gang) and now that instinct for Terrorism is continuing.
Zionism seeks the destruction of Christendom and they hope that antagonising the Islamic World will do it for them (ie. Mass Immigration of Muslims with an agenda into Western Nations).
Is there not enough to justify criticism of the Israeli Government without this lunacy?
Of course there is but in my experiences, this is typical of the brain washed ignorance that's
clearly evident when I'm back there ::)
Maybe tyrone's own and Excellent Driver could get together and have kids.
Republican antisemitic no taxes gun loving conspiracy theorists - imagine the fruit
as Ardboe under 14 corner forwards.
Quote from: seafoid on July 01, 2011, 10:12:12 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 01, 2011, 05:50:55 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 01, 2011, 12:19:30 AM
Quote from: ExcellentDriver on July 01, 2011, 12:16:34 AM
http://url.ie/c45o
Israel was born out of Anti-British Terrorism (ie. The Stern Gang) and now that instinct for Terrorism is continuing.
Zionism seeks the destruction of Christendom and they hope that antagonising the Islamic World will do it for them (ie. Mass Immigration of Muslims with an agenda into Western Nations).
Is there not enough to justify criticism of the Israeli Government without this lunacy?
Of course there is but in my experiences, this is typical of the brain washed ignorance that's
clearly evident when I'm back there ::)
Maybe tyrone's own and Excellent Driver could get together and have kids.
Republican antisemitic no taxes gun loving conspiracy theorists - imagine the fruit
as Ardboe under 14 corner forwards.
Never mind ExcellentDriver, I want to see Tyrone's Own and Cáthasaigh share their views, under their beloved tricolour of course.
Another view (http://www.slate.com/id/2298332/)
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 02:16:04 PM
Another view (http://www.slate.com/id/2298332/)
Yes and a view shared on more than one occasion by a very select
few here on the board...John and his alias' should be along shortly
to put a lid on it cause this type of material does little to aid the
ignorance and propaganda machine.
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 02:16:04 PM
Another view (http://www.slate.com/id/2298332/)
Yes and a view shared on more than one occasion by a very select
few here on the board...John and his alias' should be along shortly
to put a lid on it cause this type of material does little to aid the
ignorance and propaganda machine.
That was the first word that came to mind when I read that article alright. Propaganda.
No evidence to discredit the flotilla what-so-ever. I can just imagine an editor saying 'Just talk about the flotilla with multiple references to Hezbollah, the Assad regime, Bin Laden, al-Qaida, Iran etc etc etc..... that ought to do it'. ::)
Here is an Israeli view . I wonder what the Teaparty man from Tir Eoghain has to say on it.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/siege-of-gaza-has-become-a-moral-blockade-of-israel-1.371516
Siege of Gaza has become a moral blockade of Israel
Israel is merely one subject out of several that the political - or the apolitical - complaining is busy with.
By Yitzhak Laor
Israel is indeed connected to the centers of power in the world. The predictions of a tsunami at present seem to be exaggerated, but nevertheless, before the victory ball, it is worth remembering - the Israeli occupation is the longest military occupation of modern times. The subjects of the occupation in its two forms - the West Bank and the Gaza Strip - live under a brutal regime that few other occupations allowed themselves, without any law - the blockade and the morbidity rate among children, the roadblocks and the arbitrariness of the soldiers, breaking in to people's homes (imagine your children being awakened at night by the shouting of armed men, breaking down doors and blinding them with flashlights; imagine living without any protection ), the prolonged occupation, a disaster for us and for the Palestinians - because Israel enjoys the support of the West.
The settlements have turned the occupation into something insolvable, at least in the next few decades, so that the occupation will not merely raise another generation of Israeli troopers, egged on by the rabbis of the rabble, but also a third and fourth generation of Palestinians without another kind of life.
The fact that the Gaza Strip has become an international symbol of cruelty is yet further proof of the stupidity of our leaders. Operation Cast Lead and the blockade of Gaza - both of them with broad national consensus - have turned Gaza into a symbol that no longer needs coordination on the part of the Palestinians. Israeli democracy appears as it actually is: In the name of the majority (six million Jews ) it is permitted to do to the minority (five million, in Israel and the territories ) almost anything.
The national minority in Israel has the right to vote but it does not have television of its own ; it has health insurance but also heavy unemployment and infant mortality rates that are much higher than among the Jews (8.3 compared with 3.7 for every 1000 births ). Tel Aviv, which sells itself to the world as a liberal city, is the only metropolis in the West that does not have a Muslim population. Its "coolness" is racist - the 20 percent minority does not appear at all in the life of the city. And it is advisable for propagandists not to point to Jaffa as proof of diversity - Jaffa with its yuppie immigration is a perfect example of apartheid carried out by "secular" and "liberal" Tel Aviv.
Official propaganda, too, will not help. The more pressure Israel brings to bear on centers in the West - countries and media giants - the more the wave against it grows, because the hatred of the occupation and of Israeli racism springs from the knowledge that what Israel does is funded by the West, gets assistance from the West, and from connections with the focuses of power - as a living memorial to colonialism. There is nothing better than the way in which the Greeks thwarted the Gaza aid flotilla's departure to reinforce this. It was not just Greece that thwarted it.
The coalitions that are being organized against Israel in the West include members of the left. There are also many others and not all of them are humanistic. They are not always Jew-lovers. These coalitions will continue to grow as long as the western political community presents itself as "helpless" in the face of Israeli obduracy. Of course it is not helpless, and when it has actual interests, it is capable of behaving in typically western barbaric fashion, as it is doing now in Libya and in Iraq.
The loathing of Israel fits in with the growing anti-establishment wrath, within the context of politics where there is no difference between the parties. The protests in Greece are an example of lack of faith of this kind, which does not spring from the Israeli occupation but from the powerlessness of the masses to influence what is taking place in their countries - economics and war.
Israel is merely one subject out of several that the political - or the apolitical - complaining is busy with. Very few people join flotillas, but many more participate in sending them and even more internalize their oppression. The complaining and mumbling is part of a burgeoning anti-establishment consensus. The record of what is always known as "the hypocritical politicians" has been joined by the hypocritical attitude toward Israeli cruelty.
It is not surprising therefore that the blockade of Gaza is getting tighter in the form of a moral blockade of Israel. Slowly but surely, in a world filled with injustice and war crimes and racism toward minorities and migrants, Israel has learned, during decades of stupidity, how to become the symbol of injustice and these crimes. We are no longer the embodiment of progress, as we were trumpeted as being for a long time, but the exact opposite. And this is truly just the beginning.
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 05, 2011, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 02:16:04 PM
Another view (http://www.slate.com/id/2298332/)
Yes and a view shared on more than one occasion by a very select
few here on the board...John and his alias' should be along shortly
to put a lid on it cause this type of material does little to aid the
ignorance and propaganda machine.
That was the first word that came to mind when I read that article alright. Propaganda.
No evidence to discredit the flotilla what-so-ever. I can just imagine an editor saying 'Just talk about the flotilla with multiple references to Hezbollah, the Assad regime, Bin Laden, al-Qaida, Iran etc etc etc..... that ought to do it'. ::)
Four legs good, two legs bad. My opinion is the truth, everything that disagrees with it is propaganda.
Do you seriously believe Christopher Hitchens is a propandagist for Zionism?
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 04:36:05 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 05, 2011, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 02:16:04 PM
Another view (http://www.slate.com/id/2298332/)
Yes and a view shared on more than one occasion by a very select
few here on the board...John and his alias' should be along shortly
to put a lid on it cause this type of material does little to aid the
ignorance and propaganda machine.
That was the first word that came to mind when I read that article alright. Propaganda.
No evidence to discredit the flotilla what-so-ever. I can just imagine an editor saying 'Just talk about the flotilla with multiple references to Hezbollah, the Assad regime, Bin Laden, al-Qaida, Iran etc etc etc..... that ought to do it'. ::)
Four legs good, two legs bad. My opinion is the truth, everything that disagrees with it is propaganda.
Do you seriously believe Christopher Hitchens is a propandagist for Zionism?
That's all well and good Hardy, but it doesn't change my point... I simply stated that this article seems to me to be a very lazy piece of writing which relies on the old propaganda tool of mentioning two completely separate things repeatedly in the hope of creating an attachment in the mind of the audience. It's like the old tricks of the Bush Administration when it's key figures repeatedly mentioned Iraq and 9/11 in their speeches. Create a link where no link exists.
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 04:36:05 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 05, 2011, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 02:16:04 PM
Another view (http://www.slate.com/id/2298332/)
Yes and a view shared on more than one occasion by a very select
few here on the board...John and his alias' should be along shortly
to put a lid on it cause this type of material does little to aid the
ignorance and propaganda machine.
That was the first word that came to mind when I read that article alright. Propaganda.
No evidence to discredit the flotilla what-so-ever. I can just imagine an editor saying 'Just talk about the flotilla with multiple references to Hezbollah, the Assad regime, Bin Laden, al-Qaida, Iran etc etc etc..... that ought to do it'. ::)
Four legs good, two legs bad. My opinion is the truth, everything that disagrees with it is propaganda.
Do you seriously believe Christopher Hitchens is a propandagist for Zionism?
it reminds me of the family guy episode where Lois was running for Mayor and was losing the crowd - she just said ''9/11 was bad'' - the crowd went nuts everytime
I think Nally's point is valid it's trying to make links without dealing with the issue in isolation imo
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 05, 2011, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 02:16:04 PM
Another view (http://www.slate.com/id/2298332/)
Yes and a view shared on more than one occasion by a very select
few here on the board...John and his alias' should be along shortly
to put a lid on it cause this type of material does little to aid the
ignorance and propaganda machine.
That was the first word that came to mind when I read that article alright. Propaganda.
No evidence to discredit the flotilla what-so-ever. I can just imagine an editor saying 'Just talk about the flotilla with multiple references to Hezbollah, the Assad regime, Bin Laden, al-Qaida, Iran etc etc etc..... that ought to do it'. ::)
Funny you left Hamas out of that excuse for a defensive rant ::)
Some of the most rotten to the core individuals i've ever encountered
have had themselves rapped up tightly in the humanitarian blanket
...you just have to peel off a few layers to get to what they're really all about.
they don't come any lower imo
Quote from: Banana Man on July 05, 2011, 04:53:55 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 04:36:05 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 05, 2011, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 02:16:04 PM
Another view
Yes and a view shared on more than one occasion by a very select
few here on the board...John and his alias' should be along shortly
to put a lid on it cause this type of material does little to aid the
ignorance and propaganda machine.
That was the first word that came to mind when I read that article alright. Propaganda.
No evidence to discredit the flotilla what-so-ever. I can just imagine an editor saying 'Just talk about the flotilla with multiple references to Hezbollah, the Assad regime, Bin Laden, al-Qaida, Iran etc etc etc..... that ought to do it'.
Four legs good, two legs bad. My opinion is the truth, everything that disagrees with it is propaganda.
Do you seriously believe Christopher Hitchens is a propandagist for Zionism?
it reminds me of the family guy episode where Lois was running for Mayor and was losing the crowd - she just said ''9/11 was bad'' - the crowd went nuts everytime
I think Nally's point is valid it's trying to make links without dealing with the issue in isolation imo
I'm surprised that's all you (both) can take from that article. If you've read anything else he's written about the Israeli/Palestinian issue, I can't imagine you'd take him for a propagandist or a biased commentator. Indeed your own reaction (BM) reminds me more of the "Family Guy" effect you mention. Criticise Hamas and you must be pro-Israeli. Point out Hamas's unsavoury alliances and you are pro the Gaza blockade. It seems very knee-jerk to me.
Of course Tyrone's Own is the other side of the same coin.
The world is in colour, not black and white.
QuoteOf course Tyrone's Own is the other side of the same coin.
Actually that's incorrect...I don't condone what and how Israel go about their business, I've just been branded that way by repeatedly questioning the logic and the hypocrisy, none to different to what you are doing here recently :-\
Of course met with similar unsubstantiated attacks and articles quoted that by their very length run the risk of not being read from the usual suspects.
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 06:29:52 PM
QuoteOf course Tyrone's Own is the other side of the same coin.
Actually that's incorrect...I don't condone what and how Israel go about their business, I've just been branded that way by repeatedly questioning the logic and the hypocrisy, none to different to what you are doing here recently :-\
Obama = All Bad; GWB = All Good [TO's philosophy].
Seems to be fairly black and white to me! :P
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 06:09:50 PM
Quote from: Banana Man on July 05, 2011, 04:53:55 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 04:36:05 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 05, 2011, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 02:16:04 PM
Another view
Yes and a view shared on more than one occasion by a very select
few here on the board...John and his alias' should be along shortly
to put a lid on it cause this type of material does little to aid the
ignorance and propaganda machine.
That was the first word that came to mind when I read that article alright. Propaganda.
No evidence to discredit the flotilla what-so-ever. I can just imagine an editor saying 'Just talk about the flotilla with multiple references to Hezbollah, the Assad regime, Bin Laden, al-Qaida, Iran etc etc etc..... that ought to do it'.
Four legs good, two legs bad. My opinion is the truth, everything that disagrees with it is propaganda.
Do you seriously believe Christopher Hitchens is a propandagist for Zionism?
it reminds me of the family guy episode where Lois was running for Mayor and was losing the crowd - she just said ''9/11 was bad'' - the crowd went nuts everytime
I think Nally's point is valid it's trying to make links without dealing with the issue in isolation imo
I'm surprised that's all you (both) can take from that article. If you've read anything else he's written about the Israeli/Palestinian issue, I can't imagine you'd take him for a propagandist or a biased commentator. Indeed your own reaction (BM) reminds me more of the "Family Guy" effect you mention. Criticise Hamas and you must be pro-Israeli. Point out Hamas's unsavoury alliances and you are pro the Gaza blockade. It seems very knee-jerk to me.
Of course Tyrone's Own is the other side of the same coin.
The world is in colour, not black and white.
Or, in the view of the article, support the flotilla and you support international terrorists and dictators.
The flotilla is a mere symbolic focal point hiding the real agenda,
The destruction of Israel, you're fooling no one anymore.
Are you sailing yourself this time around Nally ::)
There are a whole range of different groups from different countries on the flotilla. There are irish politicians, there are civil rights groups, on a previous flotila there was even a jewish survivor of a nazi death camp. Of course, there are likely to be people with more extreme views towards israel (that does not mean I suspect there to be people on board with violent intent). The idea of the flotila is to break an illegal siege which leaves men, women and children living in poverty. The article above stated none of this but blathered on about iran, terrorists etc, citing no evidence to back it up. The only terrorists I came across when I look at the flotila are the ones that came on board the last one and murdered people. The same terrorists that sabotaged an Irish boat, an act that could have endangered the lives of Irish citizens. But sure Israel has nothing but contempt for our sovereign country when it steals our passports to carry out illegal assinations and places spies in their embassy in Ireland. But its all an anti jewish conspiracy after all so they can do what ever the hell they like.
Yes. It's a black and white world. I am right. You are wrong. You're a terrorist. I'm a freedom fighter. Capitalism good, socialism bad. Left wing right, right wing wrong. Palestinian and Israeli families deserve differing levels of sympathy for the deaths of their children. Greysteel a terrorist outrage; Kingsmill "shouldn't have happened". Bloody Friday a terrorist outrage; Bloody Sunday a security operation. 9-11 a terrorist outrage; shooting civilians from helicopters brings democracy to Iraq. Libyans supported; Syrians abandoned. I've chosen the Palestinians/Israelis (tick as appropriate), therefore everything they do is right and justified; everything their enemies do is evil and depraved.
It's not much different, really, to Manchester United good, Liverpool bad.
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 08:58:03 PM
The flotilla is a mere symbolic focal point hiding the real agenda,
The destruction of Israel, you're fooling no one anymore.
Are you sailing yourself this time around Nally ::)
Yes thats right, the real aim of the flotilla is the destruction of Israel ::)
Will you be ziplining out of a helicopter onto one of the boats yourself this time around Tyrones Own?
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 06:09:50 PM
Quote from: Banana Man on July 05, 2011, 04:53:55 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 04:36:05 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 05, 2011, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 05, 2011, 02:16:04 PM
Another view
Yes and a view shared on more than one occasion by a very select
few here on the board...John and his alias' should be along shortly
to put a lid on it cause this type of material does little to aid the
ignorance and propaganda machine.
That was the first word that came to mind when I read that article alright. Propaganda.
No evidence to discredit the flotilla what-so-ever. I can just imagine an editor saying 'Just talk about the flotilla with multiple references to Hezbollah, the Assad regime, Bin Laden, al-Qaida, Iran etc etc etc..... that ought to do it'.
Four legs good, two legs bad. My opinion is the truth, everything that disagrees with it is propaganda.
Do you seriously believe Christopher Hitchens is a propandagist for Zionism?
it reminds me of the family guy episode where Lois was running for Mayor and was losing the crowd - she just said ''9/11 was bad'' - the crowd went nuts everytime
I think Nally's point is valid it's trying to make links without dealing with the issue in isolation imo
I'm surprised that's all you (both) can take from that article. If you've read anything else he's written about the Israeli/Palestinian issue, I can't imagine you'd take him for a propagandist or a biased commentator. Indeed your own reaction (BM) reminds me more of the "Family Guy" effect you mention. Criticise Hamas and you must be pro-Israeli. Point out Hamas's unsavoury alliances and you are pro the Gaza blockade. It seems very knee-jerk to me.
Of course Tyrone's Own is the other side of the same coin.
The world is in colour, not black and white.
That's not what i'm saying Hardy, the way i view this whole situation is that there are people crammed into refugee camps for the last 60 odd years and are being denied basic aid by a far bigger power, it's like the big boy always taking the lunch money of the wee weak kid - it doesn't sit right with me
It would be the same if the shoe was on the other foot, i would support Jewish refugees in such a grave situation - I just cannot for the life of me understand how anyone would want to see other human beings reduced to living in rubble piles with no basic aid or food without a future - it's the attempt to link different groups to different causes, for me that is irreleavant and for a different day's discussion and what irks me, what i want to see is aid get through to people that need it but it's being blocked by an aggressor not some natural disaster
it's a crazy crazy situation and frankly i have no time for anyone who tries to mask this humanitarian catastrophe (brought about by Israel) by trying to say things like ''but hang on such and such is linked to such and such'' - it's pathetic and disgusting, the bottom line is there are people dying because they can't basic human needs....
You make a good point, Banana Man. Most reasonable people believe Israel should be brought to book over its crimes against humanity in the Middle east and forced to a solution to the conflict by their paymasters in the US. Nobody believes it's wrong to bring aid to the suffering innocents of Gaza. But we mustn't forget in all of this that the people running Gaza itself are a pretty unsavoury bunch and will undoubtedly spin any humanitarian intervention by well meaning people as support for their nasty regime and dodgy alliances. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge that is living in a black and white world, as I said.
My initial post was simply to present this point, as made by a reputable and honest commentator, who totally abhors Israeli policy, as far as I can tell from his writings. It was the knee-jerk reaction to his piece as propaganda, simply because it dared to look at another nuance of a very complex situation, that got me ranting.
Quote from: Hardy on July 06, 2011, 10:24:35 AM
You make a good point, Banana Man. Most reasonable people believe Israel should be brought to book over its crimes against humanity in the Middle east and forced to a solution to the conflict by their paymasters in the US. Nobody believes it's wrong to bring aid to the suffering innocents of Gaza. But we mustn't forget in all of this that the people running Gaza itself are a pretty unsavoury bunch and will undoubtedly spin any humanitarian intervention by well meaning people as support for their nasty regime and dodgy alliances. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge that is living in a black and white world, as I said.
My initial post was simply to present this point, as made by a reputable and honest commentator, who totally abhors Israeli policy, as far as I can tell from his writings. It was the knee-jerk reaction to his piece as propaganda, simply because it dared to look at another nuance of a very complex situation, that got me ranting.
to be honest i think we are on the same page, I wasn't even getting into the politics of the whole set-up - I don't think anyone would know it properly unless they were brought up there, I just feel so sorry for those people
I know we grumble here about the recession and how tough things are that we can't afford the holiday to Tuscany or pay for the extension for the games room and it's on the long finger (piss taking a bit) but seriously our problems pale into the insignifcant when you compare what those people have to go through on a daily basis - e.g. hoking through rubble for building materials while we nip down to the builders yard, queuing up at the UN camp for medicine while we go to the GP's and complain we had to wait for an hour, fight for food rashins while we stand in the supermarket and toy between chicken or steak from the freezeri.
It's sheer madness that Israel are allowed to maintain this blockade - the west's silence on this is deafening...
There are some on here that would have you believe they take a neutral view of this situation and then describe that there is worng on both sides. However, the same people (and I can recall one in particular) would call palestinian stone throwers "terrorists" and Israeli armed forces are "an army". Hardly a neutral position. If a terrorist is someone who inflicts terror on someone well I think it is quite clear who the larger more dominant terrorist is in this conflict. Stones met with bullets, bullets met with bombs, bombs met with carpet bombings. Then there is the land grabing, the refugee camps in numerous countries the people with imported jews living in their old homes. Its hard to look in on this and say there are 2 equal sides to the story when there are clearly not. Its like the British army against the irish peasants or the nazis against the jews. There may be individual bad acts on both sides but overall the hugely unfair aggression is from the strong against the weak.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on July 07, 2011, 04:28:18 PM
There are some on here that would have you believe they take a neutral view of this situation and then describe that there is worng on both sides. However, the same people (and I can recall one in particular) would call palestinian stone throwers "terrorists" and Israeli armed forces are "an army". Hardly a neutral position. If a terrorist is someone who inflicts terror on someone well I think it is quite clear who the larger more dominant terrorist is in this conflict. Stones met with bullets, bullets met with bombs, bombs met with carpet bombings. Then there is the land grabing, the refugee camps in numerous countries the people with imported jews living in their old homes. Its hard to look in on this and say there are 2 equal sides to the story when there are clearly not. Its like the British army against the irish peasants or the nazis against the jews. There may be individual bad acts on both sides but overall the hugely unfair aggression is from the strong against the weak.
I'll assume that's directed at me even though you're ignoring me ;D
Tis hard to look at a people that were quite happy to vote into power and are governed by a terrorist organization any other way I'm afraid :-\
*edit notice the propaganda at work when he reduces the terrorists
Wearing suicide vests and firing shells into Israel as harmless auld "stone throwers" ::)
Quote from: Hardy on July 06, 2011, 10:24:35 AM
You make a good point, Banana Man. Most reasonable people believe Israel should be brought to book over its crimes against humanity in the Middle east and forced to a solution to the conflict by their paymasters in the US. Nobody believes it's wrong to bring aid to the suffering innocents of Gaza. But we mustn't forget in all of this that the people running Gaza itself are a pretty unsavoury bunch and will undoubtedly spin any humanitarian intervention by well meaning people as support for their nasty regime and dodgy alliances. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge that is living in a black and white world, as I said.
My initial post was simply to present this point, as made by a reputable and honest commentator, who totally abhors Israeli policy, as far as I can tell from his writings. It was the knee-jerk reaction to his piece as propaganda, simply because it dared to look at another nuance of a very complex situation, that got me ranting.
Hardy
Do you think what Israel has done to Gaza might have any link to the rise of Hamas ?
Take a look up north and see what the Unionists got in return for decades of injustice meted out to the Taigs.
Imagine if the DUP was confining Co Tyrone to a diet of 2/3 of the daily recommended minimum.
That is Gaza.
The situation isn't particularly complicated. Israel is running an apartheid system.
Quote from: seafoid on July 07, 2011, 05:31:39 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 06, 2011, 10:24:35 AM
You make a good point, Banana Man. Most reasonable people believe Israel should be brought to book over its crimes against humanity in the Middle east and forced to a solution to the conflict by their paymasters in the US. Nobody believes it's wrong to bring aid to the suffering innocents of Gaza. But we mustn't forget in all of this that the people running Gaza itself are a pretty unsavoury bunch and will undoubtedly spin any humanitarian intervention by well meaning people as support for their nasty regime and dodgy alliances. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge that is living in a black and white world, as I said.
My initial post was simply to present this point, as made by a reputable and honest commentator, who totally abhors Israeli policy, as far as I can tell from his writings. It was the knee-jerk reaction to his piece as propaganda, simply because it dared to look at another nuance of a very complex situation, that got me ranting.
Hardy
Do you think what Israel has done to Gaza might have any link to the rise of Hamas ?
Take a look up north and see what the Unionists got in return for decades of injustice meted out to the Taigs.
Imagine if the DUP was confining Co Tyrone to a diet of 2/3 of the daily recommended minimum.
That is Gaza.
The situation isn't particularly complicated. Israel is running an apartheid system.
I'm surprised you think it's necessary to ask me such questions, seafoid. What has your post got to do with the point of my posts, which were, first, to draw attention to an interesting point made by a good commentator and afterwards to give out about having him labelled a propagandist?
I might as well ask you whether you think everything Hamas does is moral and right and whether you approve of their allies in the Syrian regime, but I wouldn't.
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 08:58:03 PM
The flotilla is a mere symbolic focal point hiding the real agenda,
The destruction of Israel, you're fooling no one anymore.
Are you sailing yourself this time around Nally ::)
About as much chance of that happening as you being a humanitarian.....but keep telling yourself :D
Quote from: Groucho on July 07, 2011, 07:51:29 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 08:58:03 PM
The flotilla is a mere symbolic focal point hiding the real agenda,
destruction of Israel, you're fooling no one anymore.
Are you sailing yourself this time around Nally ::)
About as much chance of that happening as you being a humanitarian.....but keep telling yourself :D
What...Nally or any of the rest ye pillars of society here for that matter sailing out to actually do something rather than run your mouths, you're probably right
...no chance! ::)
TO, a straight question, and not trying to be facetious or such (heaven forfend!): do you believe that the Earth is older than 6,000 years?
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 07, 2011, 08:24:44 PM
Quote from: Groucho on July 07, 2011, 07:51:29 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 08:58:03 PM
The flotilla is a mere symbolic focal point hiding the real agenda,
destruction of Israel, you're fooling no one anymore.
Are you sailing yourself this time around Nally ::)
About as much chance of that happening as you being a humanitarian.....but keep telling yourself :D
What...Nally or any of the rest ye pillars of society here for that matter sailing out to actually do something rather than run your mouths, you're probably right
...no chance! ::)
Well I'm off to Uganda in September for 1 month as part of a team to build a school......so can I put you down for a donation?
Many thanks in advance.
Quote from: Groucho on July 08, 2011, 07:57:40 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 07, 2011, 08:24:44 PM
Quote from: Groucho on July 07, 2011, 07:51:29 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 08:58:03 PM
The flotilla is a mere symbolic focal point hiding the real agenda,
destruction of Israel, you're fooling no one anymore.
Are you sailing yourself this time around Nally ::)
About as much chance of that happening as you being a humanitarian.....but keep telling yourself :D
What...Nally or any of the rest ye pillars of society here for that matter sailing out to actually do something rather than run your mouths, you're probably right
...no chance! ::)
Well I'm off to Uganda in September for 1 month as part of a team to build a school......so can I put you down for a donation?
Many thanks in advance.
The llast guy that was on here that tried to actually do something for people in need was ridiculed (give her dixie)and called all sorts and accused of all sorts. He hasn't been around in a long time which is sad. How ironic that the idiot who spent most of his time attacking Dixie is now attacking others for
not doing something other than posting.
PM me and I would be delighted to make a contribution to your trip.
Quote from: Groucho on July 08, 2011, 07:57:40 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 07, 2011, 08:24:44 PM
Quote from: Groucho on July 07, 2011, 07:51:29 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 08:58:03 PM
The flotilla is a mere symbolic focal point hiding the real agenda,
destruction of Israel, you're fooling no one anymore.
Are you sailing yourself this time around Nally ::)
About as much chance of that happening as you being a humanitarian.....but keep telling yourself :D
What...Nally or any of the rest ye pillars of society here for that matter sailing out to actually do something rather than run your mouths, you're probably right
...no chance! ::)
Well I'm off to Uganda in September for 1 month as part of a team to build a school......so can I put you down for a donation?
Many thanks in advance.
Sure but you must be mistaking this for a humanitarian aid thread,
You might be better off to start a new thread, one that's agenda free and
where it's sole intent is to actually help people.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/turkey-pm-israel-must-still-apologize-for-last-year-s-gaza-flotilla-raid-1.372198
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said on Friday that it was "unthinkable" to normalize ties with Israel unless Israel apologized for the killing of nine pro-Palestinian Turkish activists aboard the Mavi Marmara ship bound for the Gaza Strip last year.
Erdogan also said in the text of a speech to parliament seen by Reuters that two other conditions for the normilization of ties were Israel lifting its blockade of Gaza and Israel paying compensation to the victims of the flotilla raid.
http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/israel-s-message-hate-thy-pro-palestinian-activist-1.371999
Where Israel is concerned, a democracy that cannot bring itself to allow non-violent protest has already turned on itself
Quote from: mylestheslasher on July 08, 2011, 10:12:41 AM
Quote from: Groucho on July 08, 2011, 07:57:40 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 07, 2011, 08:24:44 PM
Quote from: Groucho on July 07, 2011, 07:51:29 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 08:58:03 PM
The flotilla is a mere symbolic focal point hiding the real agenda,
destruction of Israel, you're fooling no one anymore.
Are you sailing yourself this time around Nally ::)
About as much chance of that happening as you being a humanitarian.....but keep telling yourself :D
What...Nally or any of the rest ye pillars of society here for that matter sailing out to actually do something rather than run your mouths, you're probably right
...no chance! ::)
Well I'm off to Uganda in September for 1 month as part of a team to build a school......so can I put you down for a donation?
Many thanks in advance.
The llast guy that was on here that tried to actually do something for people in need was ridiculed (give her dixie)and called all sorts and accused of all sorts. He hasn't been around in a long time which is sad. How ironic that the idiot who spent most of his time attacking Dixie is now attacking others for not doing something other than posting.
PM me and I would be delighted to make a contribution to your trip.
Question;
Are you actually ignoring me or are you not? because I have to tell you that
thon childish and immature signature ye have is making you sound like an
awful eejit!
And by the way, if highlighting dixey's hateful blinkered attitude under the
guise of humanitarianism rattled him enough to let his mask slip, ultimately
leaving him with little other option than to run off in embarassment is somehow my fault then ok,
I'll accept that!
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/07/gaza-flytilla-activists-arrested-for.html
Quote from: seafoid on July 08, 2011, 05:29:15 PM
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/07/gaza-flytilla-activists-arrested-for.html
Only arrested....If this was Syria, Libya or a host of other Muslim countries
of late they'd have been shot on site, but you boys won't go there...its all about
Israel, right Seafoid?
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 08, 2011, 05:40:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 08, 2011, 05:29:15 PM
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/07/gaza-flytilla-activists-arrested-for.html
Only arrested....If this was Syria, Libya or a host of other Muslim countries
of late they'd have been shot on site, but you boys won't go there...its all about
Israel, right Seafoid?
Which site?
Tourists and aid workers don't get shot anywhere else in the neighbourhood.
Only in Israel. Something to do with torah. Or mayba paranoia. Remember Rachel Corrie
and Tom Hurndall
*shakes head* at what is probably the most pathetic attempt at a non
answer I've ever read on here :D
TO
Keep talking to yourself
http://twitter.com/#!/search/ibnezra
First video of the arrests at Ben Gurion earlier is up on YouTube http://youtu.be/YrP9LiqPNjY #airflotilla
ibnezra Joseph Dana
Larry Deferner of the Jpost was arrested as he tried to protect one of the activists who was getting beaten up by Israeli passerbys
Israeli police allowed ppl in the terminal to scream, spit on and attack the protesters as they were being arrested #airflotilla
Israel is so f*cked
Israeli activist Matan Cohen among those arrested for chanting "free Palestine" inside terminal hall at Ben Gurion airport #airflotilla
This video is mad but you have to watch the gillette ad first
http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/22/1839002
Israel has turned all paranoid under Netanyahu.
I suppose they know what happened in South Africa
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 08, 2011, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Groucho on July 08, 2011, 07:57:40 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 07, 2011, 08:24:44 PM
Quote from: Groucho on July 07, 2011, 07:51:29 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 08:58:03 PM
The flotilla is a mere symbolic focal point hiding the real agenda,
destruction of Israel, you're fooling no one anymore.
Are you sailing yourself this time around Nally ::)
About as much chance of that happening as you being a humanitarian.....but keep telling yourself :D
What...Nally or any of the rest ye pillars of society here for that matter sailing out to actually do something rather than run your mouths, you're probably right
...no chance! ::)
Well I'm off to Uganda in September for 1 month as part of a team to build a school......so can I put you down for a donation?
Many thanks in advance.
Sure but you must be mistaking this for a humanitarian aid thread,
You might be better off to start a new thread, one that's agenda free and
where it's sole intent is to actually help people.
No mistake....the flotilla's aims were to bring much wanted aid and expose Israel's mis-treatment of the people of Gaza.....but little has changed as they answer to no one. Try for a minute to put yourself in the shoes of a male in Gaza.....what would you do?
What are their options? If you honestly believe that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza then I know that I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
:) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :- :-* :'(X :-\
Quote from: mylestheslasher on July 08, 2011, 10:55:47 PM
:) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :- :-* :'(X :-\
Oh dear...somebody got in to his mothers drink cupboard again.
Quote from: Groucho on July 08, 2011, 10:33:08 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 08, 2011, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Groucho on July 08, 2011, 07:57:40 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 07, 2011, 08:24:44 PM
Quote from: Groucho on July 07, 2011, 07:51:29 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 08:58:03 PM
The flotilla is a mere symbolic focal point hiding the real agenda,
destruction of Israel, you're fooling no one anymore.
Are you sailing yourself this time around Nally ::)
About as much chance of that happening as you being a humanitarian.....but keep telling yourself :D
What...Nally or any of the rest ye pillars of society here for that matter sailing out to actually do something rather than run your mouths, you're probably right
...no chance! ::)
Well I'm off to Uganda in September for 1 month as part of a team to build a school......so can I put you down for a donation?
Many thanks in advance.
Sure but you must be mistaking this for a humanitarian aid thread,
You might be better off to start a new thread, one that's agenda free and
where it's sole intent is to actually help people.
No mistake....the flotilla's aims were to bring much wanted aid and expose Israel's mis-treatment of the people of Gaza.....but little has changed as they answer to no one. Try for a minute to put yourself in the shoes of a male in Gaza.....what would you do?
What are their options? If you honestly believe that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza then I know that I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
If you'd go back and read over this thread you'd realize that I've never once denied that there's a crisis in Gaza, but I'd have thought it should be pretty clear here to anyone paying attention that if there was as much emphasis placed on helping the situation as there is in getting the boot in to Israel at every turn, deserved or not, the people of Gaza might be a whole lot better off.
Aren't "humanitarians" supposed to be peaceful, caring, tolerant and understanding people?
there are lads here that are no better than some Israelis imo
because the fact is, Hate begets Hate!
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 09, 2011, 04:09:17 AM
Quote from: Groucho on July 08, 2011, 10:33:08 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 08, 2011, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Groucho on July 08, 2011, 07:57:40 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 07, 2011, 08:24:44 PM
Quote from: Groucho on July 07, 2011, 07:51:29 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 08:58:03 PM
The flotilla is a mere symbolic focal point hiding the real agenda,
destruction of Israel, you're fooling no one anymore.
Are you sailing yourself this time around Nally ::)
About as much chance of that happening as you being a humanitarian.....but keep telling yourself :D
What...Nally or any of the rest ye pillars of society here for that matter sailing out to actually do something rather than run your mouths, you're probably right
...no chance! ::)
Well I'm off to Uganda in September for 1 month as part of a team to build a school......so can I put you down for a donation?
Many thanks in advance.
Sure but you must be mistaking this for a humanitarian aid thread,
You might be better off to start a new thread, one that's agenda free and
where it's sole intent is to actually help people.
No mistake....the flotilla's aims were to bring much wanted aid and expose Israel's mis-treatment of the people of Gaza.....but little has changed as they answer to no one. Try for a minute to put yourself in the shoes of a male in Gaza.....what would you do?
What are their options? If you honestly believe that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza then I know that I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
If you'd go back and read over this thread you'd realize that I've never once denied that there's a crisis in Gaza, but I'd have thought it should be pretty clear here to anyone paying attention that if there was as much emphasis placed on helping the situation as there is in getting the boot in to Israel at every turn, deserved or not, the people of Gaza might be a whole lot better off.
Aren't "humanitarians" supposed to be peaceful, caring, tolerant and understanding people?
there are lads here that are no better than some Israelis imo
because the fact is, Hate begets Hate!
There are none so blind as those that will not see
FT print edition says :
"the protest did succeed, however, in laying bare Israel's growing sensitivity to new forms of protest and in exposing the Israeali Government to charges of "overreaction" and "hysteria" - both inside the country and abroad.
The organisers of the action which was held under the motto "welcome to Palestine" hailed it as a success. In a statement issued on Friday they decried the Israeli crackdown but said "we are pleased that this episode further exposes Israeli policy towards anyone or anyone relating to Palestinians as dictatorial, racist and criminal".
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/july082011/air-flotilla-mq.php
ETHLEHEM / JERUSALEM) - This campaign that we have been working very hard on for months is just beginning. The week of activities will go on with all your help. We will plan bigger and more dramatic events in the months to come. The collusion of the governments and corporations in Israeli occupation and colonization must be further exposed.
The Israeli authorities are escalating attacks on anyone they suspect of participating in the peaceful events of the 'Welcome to Palestine' campaign. Israeli authorities sent hundreds of names to airline companies telling them to deny travel to individuals on the list. Several people on the list who had booked flights were sent letters from airline companies cancelling their reservations 'based on a request from the Israeli authorities.' We call on all airline companies not to accept such provocative, blackmailing, and illegal actions by the Israeli government. Ominously, Israeli Prime minister has directed the interior security minister that the Israeli authorities must 'act with determination' towards those who do make it to Ben Gurion Airport.
The visitors coming from the US and Europe on Friday are committed to the principles of international and humanitarian law and believe strictly in nonviolence. They were invited by dozens of Palestinian civil society organizations and groups. They have stated that the only way to visit and work with Palestinians is by passing through Israeli border controls. They have declared their commitment to pass these border controls in an orderly, peaceful and fully transparent way. Before stepping onto the airplanes, the visitors will have passed through meticulous security procedures at the various airports of origin and will pose no threat in any way. The propaganda efforts to paint human rights advocates as 'hooligans' and even 'violent' (an attempt to demonize and dehumanize them in order to justify violence against them) is simply not credible and indeed ridiculous. We are pleased that this episode further exposes Israeli policies towards anything or anyone relating to 'Palestinians' as dictatorial, racist, and criminal and not complying with basic elements of democracy or human rights.
Quote from: Groucho on July 09, 2011, 09:22:40 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 09, 2011, 04:09:17 AM
Quote from: Groucho on July 08, 2011, 10:33:08 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 08, 2011, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Groucho on July 08, 2011, 07:57:40 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 07, 2011, 08:24:44 PM
Quote from: Groucho on July 07, 2011, 07:51:29 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 05, 2011, 08:58:03 PM
The flotilla is a mere symbolic focal point hiding the real agenda,
destruction of Israel, you're fooling no one anymore.
Are you sailing yourself this time around Nally ::)
About as much chance of that happening as you being a humanitarian.....but keep telling yourself :D
What...Nally or any of the rest ye pillars of society here for that matter sailing out to actually do something rather than run your mouths, you're probably right
...no chance! ::)
Well I'm off to Uganda in September for 1 month as part of a team to build a school......so can I put you down for a donation?
Many thanks in advance.
Sure but you must be mistaking this for a humanitarian aid thread,
You might be better off to start a new thread, one that's agenda free and
where it's sole intent is to actually help people.
No mistake....the flotilla's aims were to bring much wanted aid and expose Israel's mis-treatment of the people of Gaza.....but little has changed as they answer to no one. Try for a minute to put yourself in the shoes of a male in Gaza.....what would you do?
What are their options? If you honestly believe that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza then I know that I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
If you'd go back and read over this thread you'd realize that I've never once denied that there's a crisis in Gaza, but I'd have thought it should be pretty clear here to anyone paying attention that if there was as much emphasis placed on helping the situation as there is in getting the boot in to Israel at every turn, deserved or not, the people of Gaza might be a whole lot better off.
Aren't "humanitarians" supposed to be peaceful, caring, tolerant and understanding people?
there are lads here that are no better than some Israelis imo
because the fact is, Hate begets Hate!
There are none so blind as those that will not see
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind"
Now if only I could remember where I heard that one :-X
The settlers :
http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/77378/girls-at-war/?all=1
He is best-known for his notorious essay "Baruch Hagever," praising Baruch Goldstein's 1994 murder of 29 Arabs in the Cave of the Patriarch. Goldstein, he wrote, was, following the five halakhic principles: sanctifying God's name, saving life, revenge, eradication of the seed of Amalek, and war
Don't wait until the Lord, blessed be he, brings us redemption. Get up and initiate." Rav Gadi and his flock have to work harder to build a physical home for the divine presence. And who better to serve as the handmaidens of God's kingdom on earth than a flock of adoring, fervent teenage girls?
Girls who feel they experienced a miracle will share it to spread the word. Others confess. They cry, repent, rejoice. The music intensifies. The girls dance, harder and harder, reviving, replenishing the spirit. It can go on all night, particularly before Rosh Hashana. By morning every girl is free of her emotional mess, rejuvenated, joined to each other, and filled with God.
Every activity, in fact, is in the service of God. Math and grades were not so important, she said.
"The only way we can live together is if they are put on trucks and taken away," said Corinne, carrying the dishes to the sink
Do they teach about Arabs at school?
"No. In my class one girl didn't have a brother. One didn't have parents because of the terrorism," she said. "It's not all about the hate. It's a different reality we are born into, so the hate came with the reality."
A reality for this generation spawned by an ideological plan that unleashed a collective experience of murder and revenge that is now embedded in the communal DNA. A senior I met at Ofra's high school named Shachar was eerily articulate about exactly what defined this generation of girls. "Our life has more meaning than kids brought up in America," she said. "We are brought up not to waste our time. We can't go on Facebook at school. We volunteer in our free time because what matters is not me, it's the nation," she said. Politically too they were fairly united. "Two states, two lands is not an option. This land is ours. We don't close our eyes to the fact that Palestinians are living on the other side of the fence. But our parents come from the United States. We grew up in this situation. It's more burning for us."
Who was Amalek? I asked.
Any enemy of the Jews—the Amalekites, the Arabs, the Nazis, the Palestinians, even the desire to do evil, she said. What Amalek has is azut hakodesh—nerve, maddened by the holy spirit. "Even though Amalek knew that we are the chosen people, they fought against us," said Roni. "That is why we need to destroy them."
Within 45 minutes, a gang of girls, including Roni, was gathered at the bus stop, headed to Shiloh junction to throw stones at Palestinian cars, and shout, "Death to the Arabs."
Irish aid ship bound for Gaza
Updated: 17:55, Wednesday, 2 November 2011 RTE
An Irish and a Canadian aid ship are currently in international waters on their way to Gaza to take part in a humanitarian mission.
In July, the Irish ship, the MV Saoirse, was at the centre of allegations it had been sabotaged by Israel.
A chunk was found to be missing from the ship's propeller shaft which activists claimed could not have been done accidentally.
Socialist MEP Paul Murphy, former Fianna Fáil TD Chris Andrews and two councillors from Sinn Fein are on board.
Israel will not permit the flotilla of pro-Palestinian activists who set sail from Turkey to reach their destination, a government official has told Reuters.
"They will not be allowed to breach the blockade," the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
"The blockade is on, and no exceptions will be made," he said, adding that Israel "will take whatever measures will be necessary."
Will this be anything like their threats of "pre-emptive" strikes against Iran?
Did Turkey not state recently that they would escort ships to Gaza in the future?
Not a word.
Is give her dixie involved in this flotilla? His updates are a big loss to the thread
irishtimes.com - Last Updated: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 17:39
Israel to deport Irish Gaza activists
An image released by the Israel Defence Forces shows Israeli soldiers boarding the Irish vessel the MV Saoirse, which was carrying activists towards Gaza yesterday.An image released by the Israel Defence Forces shows Israeli soldiers boarding the Irish vessel the MV Saoirse, which was carrying activists towards Gaza yesterday.
Related
Fourteen Irish nationals aboard a Gaza-bound vessel intercepted by the Israeli navy yesterday face a deportation hearing today.
They are part of a group of 27 peace activists, from seven countries, who are being held at the Givon Detention Centre after undergoing security checks at Ashdod port. They can be held for 72 hours before being deported.
Israeli authorities said anyone who refuses to leave the country voluntarily would have access to a lawyer and 72 hours to appeal being sent home.
The Irish embassy was in contact with the Israeli authorities yesterday over the welfare of the Irish nationals and was assured all of them were safe.
Some Irish activists expressed concern the Israeli authorities might confiscate their personal belongings. Activists on previous flotillas complained laptop computers and mobile phones were not returned.
The Israeli military said no one was hurt when naval commandos boarded the Irish MV Saoirse and the Canadian vessel MV Al-Tahrir after the captains refused repeated requests to turn around.
A military spokesman said the boats were in international waters in the Mediterranean when they were stopped, between 40 and 60 miles from the coast.
The Israeli military issued a short video clip showing a naval official calling on the ships to turn around. "Your attempt to enter the Gaza Strip by sea is a violation of international law.
"We remind you that humanitarian supplies can be delivered to the Gaza Strip by land, and you are welcome to enter Ashdod port and deliver supplies through land crossings", the navy officer said.
Satellite phone links were blocked shortly before the maritime interception.
Activists from Gaza who helped co-ordinate the flotilla called the Israeli action illegal and called for the immediate release of all those arrested.
Israel imposed a maritime blockade on the Gaza strip in 2007 after Hamas came to power. It claims the restrictions are necessary to stop weapons reaching militant groups.
Yesterday's peaceful interception was in sharp contrast to the events of May 2010, when Israeli commandos boarded the Turkish Mavi Marmara ship, the flagship vessel of a flotilla trying to reach Gaza, and killed nine Turkish Islamic activists, some of them armed with clubs and knives.
Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamon Gilmore said in a statement last night: "My initial reaction is one of relief that there has been no violence and that all the Irish nationals aboard the MV Saoirse are safe and well following this ordeal.
"My priority and responsibility throughout this whole episode, as in relation to previous flotillas attempting to sail to Gaza, has been to ensure that no harm would come to any Irish national involved and I am relieved that this has been accomplished."
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 05, 2011, 02:19:54 AM
Not a word.
Sure what else can be said about the fascist Israeli government.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 05, 2011, 07:39:56 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 05, 2011, 02:19:54 AM
Not a word.
Sure what else can be said about the fascist Israeli government.
You can't say anything about Israel, Myles. Otherwise you are antisemitic.
What a joke.
Until the yanks start threatening the Israelis with a reduction in aid the Israelis will continue to do what they like! So these flotillas are pointless really. The aid will never get to the people of Gaza and the only thing resulting from this is to direct some attention to the siege! It's an awful situation for the Palestinians and it is so counterproductive for the Israelis as the only response that a lot of Palesitinians will engage in is joining the suicide bomber groups!!! The Israelis are bastards no doubt but I just wish that Arafat had accepted the huge concessions that he was offered by Ehud Barak in the talks in Camp David in the 90s! I mean wouldn't they be a bit better off now??
Israelis: the only people on the planet to 'deport' you from a country you weren't going to in the first place.
Quote from: cicfada on November 05, 2011, 09:36:18 PM
Until the yanks start threatening the Israelis with a reduction in aid the Israelis will continue to do what they like! So these flotillas are pointless really. The aid will never get to the people of Gaza and the only thing resulting from this is to direct some attention to the siege! It's an awful situation for the Palestinians and it is so counterproductive for the Israelis as the only response that a lot of Palesitinians will engage in is joining the suicide bomber groups!!! The Israelis are b**tards no doubt but I just wish that Arafat had accepted the huge concessions that he was offered by Ehud Barak in the talks in Camp David in the 90s! I mean wouldn't they be a bit better off now??
This is what Arafat was offered in the West Bank (it doesn't include Gaza)
The green is the land the Palestinians would have had for the state and the blue is Israeli controlled.
http://bigthink.com/ideas/21423
Would you think this is good enough for a state ?
Arafat......classy guy ::)
In August 2002, the Israeli Military Intelligence Chief alleged that Arafat's personal wealth was in the range of USD $1.3 billion.[105] In 2003 the International Monetary Fund (IMF) conducted an audit of the PNA and stated that Arafat diverted $900 million in public funds to a special bank account controlled by Arafat and the PNA Chief Economic Financial adviser. However, the IMF did not claim that there were any improprieties, and it specifically stated that most of the funds had been used to invest in Palestinian assets, both internally and abroad.[106][107]
However in 2003, a team of American accountants–hired by Arafat's own finance ministry–began examining Arafat's finances; this team reached a different conclusion. The team claimed that part of the Palestinian leader's wealth was in a secret portfolio worth close to $1 billion, with investments in companies like a Coca-Cola bottling plant in Ramallah, a Tunisian cell phone company and venture capital funds in the US and the Cayman Islands. The head of the investigation stated that "although the money for the portfolio came from public funds like Palestinian taxes, virtually none of it was used for the Palestinian people; it was all controlled by Arafat. And none of these dealings were made public."[108]
An investigation conducted by the General Accounting Office reported that Arafat and the PLO held over $10 billion in assets even at the time when he was publicly claiming bankruptcy
Quote from: Groucho on November 06, 2011, 11:09:04 AM
Arafat......classy guy ::)
In August 2002, the Israeli Military Intelligence Chief alleged that Arafat's personal wealth was in the range of USD $1.3 billion.[105] In 2003 the International Monetary Fund (IMF) conducted an audit of the PNA and stated that Arafat diverted $900 million in public funds to a special bank account controlled by Arafat and the PNA Chief Economic Financial adviser. However, the IMF did not claim that there were any improprieties, and it specifically stated that most of the funds had been used to invest in Palestinian assets, both internally and abroad.[106][107]
However in 2003, a team of American accountants–hired by Arafat's own finance ministry–began examining Arafat's finances; this team reached a different conclusion. The team claimed that part of the Palestinian leader's wealth was in a secret portfolio worth close to $1 billion, with investments in companies like a Coca-Cola bottling plant in Ramallah, a Tunisian cell phone company and venture capital funds in the US and the Cayman Islands. The head of the investigation stated that "although the money for the portfolio came from public funds like Palestinian taxes, virtually none of it was used for the Palestinian people; it was all controlled by Arafat. And none of these dealings were made public."[108]
An investigation conducted by the General Accounting Office reported that Arafat and the PLO held over $10 billion in assets even at the time when he was publicly claiming bankruptcy
Have you checked the sources from your wikipedia cut and paste?
That figure of 10 billion comes from a website calling itself 'Christian Action for Israel'.
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on November 06, 2011, 12:16:27 PM
Quote from: Groucho on November 06, 2011, 11:09:04 AM
Arafat......classy guy ::)
In August 2002, the Israeli Military Intelligence Chief alleged that Arafat's personal wealth was in the range of USD $1.3 billion.[105] In 2003 the International Monetary Fund (IMF) conducted an audit of the PNA and stated that Arafat diverted $900 million in public funds to a special bank account controlled by Arafat and the PNA Chief Economic Financial adviser. However, the IMF did not claim that there were any improprieties, and it specifically stated that most of the funds had been used to invest in Palestinian assets, both internally and abroad.[106][107]
However in 2003, a team of American accountants–hired by Arafat's own finance ministry–began examining Arafat's finances; this team reached a different conclusion. The team claimed that part of the Palestinian leader's wealth was in a secret portfolio worth close to $1 billion, with investments in companies like a Coca-Cola bottling plant in Ramallah, a Tunisian cell phone company and venture capital funds in the US and the Cayman Islands. The head of the investigation stated that "although the money for the portfolio came from public funds like Palestinian taxes, virtually none of it was used for the Palestinian people; it was all controlled by Arafat. And none of these dealings were made public."[108]
An investigation conducted by the General Accounting Office reported that Arafat and the PLO held over $10 billion in assets even at the time when he was publicly claiming bankruptcy
Have you checked the sources from your wikipedia cut and paste?
That figure of 10 billion comes from a website calling itself 'Christian Action for Israel'.
Maybe so - but he was no saviour to the Palestinians!
In the End He Became a Little Dictator, Falsely Promising Democracy
Arafat Died Years Ago
by ROBERT FISK
The Independent
Yet again, Yasser Arafat is dying. We thought he'd been killed back in 1982 when the Israeli air force flew around Beirut attacking apartment blocks and homes they thought he was visiting. Their bombs tore to pieces hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians but Arafat was never there. Then we thought he'd died in a plane crash in the Libyan desert — but it was the pilot who died and the bodyguard who shielded him in his airline seat. Then we thought he'd bought it on the road to Baghdad when he suffered a blood clot. But Jordanian doctors brought him back to the world of the living. Now, again, we're preparing for the old man's death. Yet like the Pope, he seems to go on and on and on.
He is a wearying man, not just in his repeated death but in life as well, a man who married the Revolution — as his wife was to discover — rather than develop a coherent strategy for a people under occupation. And in the end, he became like so many other Arab leaders — and as the Israelis intended him to be — a little dictator, handing out dollars and euros to his ageing but loyal cronies, falsely promising democracy, clinging to power in his shambles of an office in Ramallah. Had he done what he was supposed to do — had he governed "Palestine" (the quotation marks are daily more important) with ruthlessness and crushed all opposition and accepted all Israel's demands — he would be able now to visit Jerusalem, even Washington.
I recall how, just after the famous handshake on the White House lawn, I told an Israeli friend in Jerusalem that it was only fair that he would now have to live with Arafat next door. After all, I said, I'd had to suffer his near-occupation of West Beirut for seven years. Those were the days when he promised to return all the refugees of pre-1948 Palestine to their homes, when he deliberately sacrificed thousands of Palestinian lives in the Tel el-Zaatar camp to earn the world's sympathy, when he tolerated aircraft hijacking and talked about "democracy among the guns" and eventually left his people in Beirut to Israel's murderous henchmen in the Phalange.
The Arafat mug was never going to find its way on to university walls like Guevara or even Castro. There was — and still is — a kind of seediness about it and maybe that's what the Israelis saw too, a man who could be relied on to police his people in their little Bantustans, another proxy to run the show when occupation became too tiresome. "Can Arafat control his own people?" That's what the Israelis asked and the world obligingly asked the same question without realising the truth: that this was precisely why Arafat had been allowed back to the Occupied Territories — to "control" his people. The only time he did stand up to his Israeli-American masters — when he refused to accept 64 per cent of the 22 per cent of Palestine that was left to him — he returned in triumph to Gaza and allowed the Israelis to claim he was offered 95 per cent but chose war.
When he started negotiating with the Israelis, he had not even seen a Jewish settlement but he put his trust in the Americans — always a dangerous thing to do in the Middle East — and when Israel began to renege on the withdrawals, there was no one to help him. Israel broke withdrawal agreements five times.
Then came intifada two and the Palestinian suicide bombings and 11 September 2001, and it was only a matter of time — about six hours, to be exact — before Israel said Arafat was linked to Osama bin Laden and that Ariel Sharon, too, was fighting world terror in his battle with the "terrorist" Arafat. In a country where the word "terrorist" is even more promiscuously used than it is in the United States, it was applied to Arafat by every Israeli official and every right-wing journalist outside Israel.
Sitting like an old and dying owl in his Ramallah headquarters, it must have struck Arafat that he had one unique distinction. Some "terrorists" — Khomeini, for example — die of old age. Some — Gaddafi comes to mind — become statesmen courtesy of mendacious folk like Tony Blair. Others — Abu Nidal is an obvious candidate — get murdered, often by their own side. But Arafat is perhaps the only man who started off as a "super-terrorist", was turned overnight by the Oslo agreement into a "super-statesman" and then went back to being a "super-terrorist" again. No wonder he often seems to be losing attention, making factual errors, falling ill.
Like all dictators, he made sure that there was no succession. It might have been Abu Jihad, but he was murdered by the Israelis in Tunis. It might have been one of the militant leaders whom the Israelis have been executing by air attack over the past two years. It could still be, just, the imprisoned Marwan Barghouti. And, if the Israelis decide that he should be the leader — be sure the Palestinians won't get any choice in the matter — then the prison doors may open for Barghouti.
Yes, Arafat might die. The funeral would be the usual excruciating rhetoric bath. But the truth, I fear, is that Arafat died years ago.
Even if Arafat was no Brian Cowen, does it justify the continued denial of their basic human rights to 3.5 million stateless Palestinians ?
Israel is run by sociopaths. If the Palestinians were lead by Dag Hammarskold or Mother Teresa nothing would change.
Deputy Knesset speaker Danny Danon explains that the Palestinians have no right to live on their own land in their own country
http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/talktojazeera/2011/08/201185103022120129.html
Quote from: seafoid on November 06, 2011, 01:42:55 PM
Even if Arafat was no Brian Cowen, does it justify the continued denial of their basic human rights to 3.5 million stateless Palestinians ?
Israel is run by sociopaths. If the Palestinians were lead by Dag Hammarskold or Mother Teresa nothing would change.
Deputy Knesset speaker Danny Danon explains that the Palestinians have no right to live on their own land in their own country
http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/talktojazeera/2011/08/201185103022120129.html
I agree but while it is right to point out the crimes if Israel we do ourselves no favours by saying everyone on the other side was angelic. We must call it as it is and the truth is Arafat was not a good leader at all.
Nobody is angelic in the real world. Sure he was corrupt .
I think the biggest mistake Arafat made was to trust the Israelis.
They never wanted peace. They just want the land.
Just look at the Israeli response to the UNESCO vote.
I can't see how anyone else would have made a difference.
Below is what Arrafat was offered in the camp david talks! What a fool not to take it!!
•Israeli redeployment from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip
•The creation of a Palestinian state in the areas of Israeli withdrawal
•The removal of isolated settlements and transfer of the land to Palestinian control
•Other Israeli land exchanged for West Bank settlements remaining under Israeli control
•Palestinian control over East Jerusalem, including most of the Old City
•"Religious Sovereignty" over the Temple Mount, replacing Israeli sovereignty in effect since 1967
And this is from palestine facts .org! Full link below:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_campdavid_2000.php
http://ustogaza.org/latest/human-rights-activists-on-boats-to-gaza-beaten-by-israeli-forces-denied-visits-by-lawyers-and-access-to-families-once-in-custody/
Human Rights Activists on Boats to Gaza Beaten by Israeli Forces, Denied Visits by Lawyers and Access to Families Once in Custody
Contact: Felice Gelman, (917)-912-2597
New York, NY 11/6/2011 – Although Freedom Waves to Gaza organizers have not yet had direct communication with the people taken into custody by Israeli armed forces as they tried to peacefully sail to Gaza last week. Information is emerging that Israeli armed forces tactics in confronting the non-violent activists have been violent and dangerous. This despite claims from the IDF spokesperson that "every precaution will be taken for the safety of the activists."
Prisoners include U.S. citizen Kit Kittredge, a delegate on the Tahrir from Quilcene, WA, and Jihan Hafiz, a U.S. citizen and journalist from Democracy Now, the national news program. Both have been advised by the U.S. consul in Israel to sign an Israeli deportation agreement. Both have refused because the statement says they came into Israel illegally and will not attempt another effort to break the Gaza blockade. Both statements are untrue.
A letter from Canadian David Heap, smuggled from the Givon prison, states that he was tasered and beaten when the Israeli Navy attacked the Tahrir. Irish prisoner, Fintan Lane, in a telephone call from Givon prison, reported that the takeover of the Saoirse was also violent. The Tahrir and the Saoirse were forced, by Israeli warships, to crash into each other, crippling both ships.
Palestinian Israeli Majd Kayal, a delegate aboard the Tahrir, who was arrested and released confirms these reports. "As a Palestinian, I was not surprised at how the IDF treated us," said Kayal, after his release, noting this kind of abuse is a daily reality for the 1.5 million people of Gaza, who are indefinitely detained in an open-air prison. "However, for the Canadians and other Westerners onboard, it was a complete shock."
"Israeli brutality and the unnecessary use of force against non-violent protests is well documented. What has happened to the passengers on the Tahrir and the Saoirse is just a tiny fraction of the daily abuse directed at Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank as part of Israel's occupation policy," said U.S. coordinator Jane Hirschmann. "Nonetheless, all people – Palestinians under occupation and peace activists kidnapped and imprisoned – have human rights under international law that civilized governments must respect. The purpose of the boats' voyage to Gaza was to demonstrate that Israel continually violates those laws, and that the U.S. government cares more about Israel than about its own citizens.
Quote from: cicfada on November 06, 2011, 09:22:41 PM
Below is what Arrafat was offered in the camp david talks! What a fool not to take it!!
•Israeli redeployment from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip
•The creation of a Palestinian state in the areas of Israeli withdrawal
•The removal of isolated settlements and transfer of the land to Palestinian control
•Other Israeli land exchanged for West Bank settlements remaining under Israeli control
•Palestinian control over East Jerusalem, including most of the Old City
•"Religious Sovereignty" over the Temple Mount, replacing Israeli sovereignty in effect since 1967
And this is from palestine facts .org! Full link below:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_campdavid_2000.php
Israel would have held on to East Jerusalem and 2 settlement blocs that effectively carve the West Bank into 3 disconnected
cantons.
http://www.mideastweb.org/lastmaps.htm
Anyway it doesn't matter now. Israel is f*cked.
Quote from: seafoid on November 06, 2011, 09:27:15 PM
Quote from: cicfada on November 06, 2011, 09:22:41 PM
Below is what Arrafat was offered in the camp david talks! What a fool not to take it!!
•Israeli redeployment from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip
•The creation of a Palestinian state in the areas of Israeli withdrawal
•The removal of isolated settlements and transfer of the land to Palestinian control
•Other Israeli land exchanged for West Bank settlements remaining under Israeli control
•Palestinian control over East Jerusalem, including most of the Old City
•"Religious Sovereignty" over the Temple Mount, replacing Israeli sovereignty in effect since 1967
And this is from palestine facts .org! Full link below:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_campdavid_2000.php
Israel would have held on to East Jerusalem and 2 settlement blocs that effectively carve the West Bank into 3 disconnected
cantons.
http://www.mideastweb.org/lastmaps.htm
Anyway it doesn't matter now. Israel is f*cked.
Is that mere wishful thinking or fact...cause we've heard that all before you know!
http://irishshiptogaza.org/?p=861
Hijacking of MV Saoirse "Violent and Dangerous" – call received directly from Israeli prison
Posted by Kev
Irish Ship to Gaza National Coordinator Fintan Lane was able to make a phone call this afternoon from the Israeli prison in which he and 13 other Irish citizens are being held. He communicated the following to the Irish Ship to Gaza team in Dublin:
The takeover of the MV Saoirse was violent and dangerous. Despite very clear protests from the occupants of the two boats that they did not want to be taken to Israel, they were forcibly removed from the boats in a violent manner. The whole takeover took about three hours. It began with Israeli forces hosing down the boats with high pressure hoses and pointing guns at the passengers through the windows. I was hosed down the stairs of the boat. Windows were smashed and the bridge of the boat nearly caught fire. The boats were corralled to such an extent that the two boats, the Saoirse and the Tahrir, collided with each other and were damaged, with most of the damage happening to the MV Saoirse. The boats nearly sank. The method used in the takeover was dangerous to human life. The Israeli forces initially wanted to leave the boats at sea, but the abductees demanded that they not be left to float at sea, for they would have been lost and possibly sunk. All belongings of the passengers and crew were taken from them and they still do not know if and what they will get back. The 14 Irish citizens remain in Givon prison.
The phone call was very rushed and ended abruptly with Fintan saying, "I have to go."
Claudia Saba, spokesperson for Irish Ship to Gaza, who received the call from Lane, said:
"The account received from Fintan Lane flatly contradicts the Israeli narrative that Israel 'took every precaution necessary to ensure the safety of the activists on board the vessels'. It is a small miracle that no one was seriously injured during this obviously very violent boarding of the Freedom Waves boats."
Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson Laurence Davis added:
"This account confirms our fear that the hijacking of the boats was very violent, and explains the time lag between the point at which we lost contact with the boats on Wednesday at 11:12 am (Irish time) and news of the passengers' arrival at Ashdod not before 5pm."
In an interview he gave to www.Omniatv.com, Greek captain of the Tahrir Giorgos Klontzas has confirmed the use of violence on him by Israeli soldiers during his interrogation.
The Canadian boat lawyers are today being denied access to the detainees by the prison authorities. We were informed by the Canadian land team: "They kicked the lawyers out at 5pm yesterday, after only three hours, and today they have not been responding to any calls (either on the main line or the cell number of one of the prison officials) to coordinate a visit or arrange phone contact with the detainees."
We also have reports that at least one of the Canadian boat participants was electrically tased and beaten. Canadian David Heap is now limping as a result.
http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/512198
Lina Attalah, Al-Masry Al-Youm English's managing editor, recently took part in the "Freedom Waves" flotilla carrying aid to Gaza. She was captured at sea by Israeli security forces on Friday along with the rest of the passengers, 27 activists and journalists from around the world. She returned to Egypt safely on Saturday. The two boats, one Irish and one Canadian, were an attempt to draw the world's attention to the Israeli blockade imposed on Gaza since 2007. This is her account.
Inside the Tahrir boat to Gaza Friday morning, as everyone sat opposite computer screens, updating the world about our trip, David Heap, one of the boat's organizers, made a grand entrance to our make-shift media center.
"50! We're 50 miles away from Gaza," he screamed to applause.
The previous night, we were expecting Israeli intervention at any point. Israel has a record of attacking solidarity boats in international waters as far as 100 nautical miles off Gaza's shore. But when we woke up to a sunny day and found that our communications system was working, we thought that arrival to Gaza was imminent. Activists on board spent the first half of the day decorating the boat with pro-Gaza flags, signs and artwork.
The enthusiasm, however, didn't eliminate our expectation of Israeli intervention. Activists were working on English and Hebrew signs reading "this is piracy" and "this is kidnapping," in anticipation of a possible attack in international waters.
We were right to temper our optimism.Towards the early afternoon, we saw three Israeli warships in the horizon. We knew that the moment had come.
At that point, some activists and journalists on board started throwing equipment into the sea, fearing that the information stored on their technology could be used by our potential captors to implicate other activists who were not on the boat.
Soon after, the Israeli presence in the waters around us intensified. We counted at least 15 ships, four of which were warships, and the rest a mix of smaller boats and water cannons. From inside the smaller boats, dozens of Israeli soldiers pointed their machines guns at us. This is when our communications system was jammed and we lost contact with the world.
Our boat's captain started receiving radio messages from the Israeli navy, asking about the organizers and the destination of the trip. Ehab Lotayef, another organizer of the Tahrir boat to Gaza, communicated with the Israeli navy, telling them that our destination was Gaza and that any attempt to arrest us would be illegal. When the navy repeated over the radio, "Tahrir, what is your final destination?" Lotayef, who is a poet, responded, "the betterment of mankind."
As Israeli naval vessels loomed around our boat, the Israelis made a proposition that they would send one person to inspect for weapons, and if he found nothing, they would let us pass. The proposition was met with skepticism among the activists, although some thought this could really be a way to get to Gaza. The Irish boat, which was sailing with us, staunchly refused the proposition.
As the Israeli ships closed in on us, we found the Irish boat heading into our direction and hitting our boat so aggressively that they damaged their entry point. We speculated that this could be a form of resistance to the forced Israeli boarding, but we couldn't communicate with them to find out.
At this point, the Israelis had withdrawn their proposition and sent radio messages to our boat, asking us to stop sailing because they would board the boat and take us to the Israeli port of Ashdod. When our boat refused to surrender, they aimed their canons at us, showering us with salty water. This came a few minutes after Heap had warned us, "get ready for a shower." The radio warnings from the Israeli navy continued, asking the boat's members to remove the net surrounding the boat, which we had put in place as a form of protection.
The boat had become highly unstable and panic was in the air. But a beautiful rainbow in the sky caught our attention, and, in what was a surreal moment, we started capturing it with our cameras.
Then we were outmaneuvered. Israeli ships hit our boat and soldiers started boarding. Dozens of masked soldiers screamed "on your knees," and "hands up." One soldier filmed the whole process. At the same time, a group of soldiers invaded the boat's lower level, where we had set up our media center. I don't remember at what point an Israeli flag was flown from the boat.
After some initial checks, we also found ourselves below deck, where we were seated one next to the other. We learned that the boat was already being steered towards Ashdod. When one of the soldiers asked if we needed anything, Lotayef and Heap said "we need our boat back." They were ignored.
We were then allowed to go one by one to collect our luggage from the ship's hold. I found no computers or any other electronics left, and our luggage was dumped in piles, with soldiers lying on the floor in what became a mess. That same area had been our temporary home for the past four days as we worked, ate and slept there. The scene of a dismantled home was quite disturbing.
After two hours we reached Ashdod. Unfortunately, I couldn't see what became of the other passengers because I was called out first. We exchanged painful gazes at each other as I was taken out, wondering when and where next we would meet next.
On the way out of the boat, I was showered with flashes as Israeli soldiers took pictures. The place we were taken to at Ashdod is a featureless detention facility for "illegal migrants." I was strip-searched and had my flip cam, personal diary, USB stick, mobile phone and voice recorder confiscated. My computer and camera had already been taken by the soldiers on the boat. I tried to negotiate to get my things back - or at least to recuperate my personal diary, where I had compiled minute details of the trip - but failed. I did manage to keep two books they wanted to confiscate.
My thoughts, in the meantime, were with the boat's activists, who pledged to peacefully resist being taken out of the boat. They agreed that they would only leave the boat by being forcibly dragged. As I was searched, I heard Heap screaming inside the facility. "Ehab, can you hear me?," "Majd, can you hear me?," "Kit, can you hear me?," "Karen, can you hear me?," "Michael, can you hear me?" His calls echoed in the large detention facility, piercing through its noisy corridors. But I heard no responses from fellow activists.
I was brought somewhere else, where I was interrogated by police officers for 30 minutes and where my finger prints and photo were taken. During the interrogation, I was asked about my professional history, the different organizations I worked for and how I knew Freedom Waves, our flotilla to Gaza, and the activists involved. As I was facing the police officer, I saw the reflection of George Klontzas, the boat's captain, in the mirror. His legs were cloaked in metal chain.
"Are you aware that you were heading into a closed military zone?" the police officer asked. I said yes. When he asked why I did that, I told him I was covering an activists' quest to challenge the Gaza blockade. He smiled and let me go.
I was driven by two diplomats from the Egyptian Embassy to the Taba border crossing and crossed over to Egypt, quite smoothly and unharmed.
***
Right before setting sail, I was sitting with Heap in an office at the Fethiye port in Turkey, sending last minute emails. Amid frantic emailing, I overheard Heap calling his son on Skype and telling him, "I love you, you know that." I was a little disconcerted. I hadn't thought to do the same. I asked him, "Do you really think we need to call our folks and tell them we love them before we sail?" He told me, "We have to tell them we love them all the time." At the time of writing this article, he and Lotayef were still detained in Israel.
One of the two books that escaped confiscation was Mediterranean Crossings by Iain Chambers. As the soldier removed my bookmark, I naively rushed to mark the page by folding it. "The Mediterranean becomes a site for an experiment to a different form of history," read some of Chambers' words on that page. Perhaps the line describes the act of appropriating international waters in a quest to change the status quo.
:D
Especially this bit;
"The boat had become highly unstable and panic was in the air. But a beautiful rainbow in the sky caught our attention, and, in what was a surreal moment, we started capturing it with our cameras"
:'( ....... Baa :D
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 07, 2011, 06:12:15 PM
:D
Especially this bit;
"The boat had become highly unstable and panic was in the air. But a beautiful rainbow in the sky caught our attention, and, in what was a surreal moment, we started capturing it with our cameras"
:'( ....... Baa :D
Fox News headline:
Surrender Cheese eating Pinkos Capture Israeli Rainbow................
Quote from: muppet on November 07, 2011, 06:20:29 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 07, 2011, 06:12:15 PM
:D
Especially this bit;
"The boat had become highly unstable and panic was in the air. But a beautiful rainbow in the sky caught our attention, and, in what was a surreal moment, we started capturing it with our cameras"
:'( ....... Baa :D
Fox News headline:
Surrender Cheese eating Pinkos Capture Israeli Rainbow................
When you get done admiring that rainbow throw a link of it up there for a laugh
Ba :D
As Israeli naval vessels loomed around our boat, the Israelis made a proposition that they would send one person to inspect for weapons, and if he found nothing, they would let us pass.
You can't hide those lying Zionist eyes.
Quote from: seafoid on November 07, 2011, 09:31:52 PM
As Israeli naval vessels loomed around our boat, the Israelis made a proposition that they would send one person to inspect for weapons, and if he found nothing, they would let us pass.
You can't hide those lying Zionist eyes.
Weapons...not sure, but they did find a surreal moment when the
Rainbow appeared :D :D
You can't hide that hatred of all things Israeli ::)
Fox News Update:
In response to the Capture of the Israeli rainbow by a few hippie wannabes, the Neo-Cons have invaded Venezuala. A spokesperson said we don't comment for security reasons however we believe Chavez had rainbows of mass destruction.
More to follow.........
Quote from: muppet on November 07, 2011, 11:41:58 PM
Fox News Update:
In response to the Capture of the Israeli rainbow by a few hippie wannabes, the Neo-Cons have invaded Venezuala. A spokesperson said we don't comment for security reasons however we believe Chavez had rainbows of mass destruction
More to follow.....
One can only hope its the proper spelling of Venezuela 8)
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 08, 2011, 03:49:09 AM
One can only hope its the proper spelling of Venezuela 8)
Your heroes aren't the best at spelling either. Of course it could be brainwashing which in your case seems to work very well.
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/272722/FOX-HEADLINE-FAIL.jpg)
Quote from: muppet on November 08, 2011, 09:53:06 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 08, 2011, 03:49:09 AM
One can only hope its the proper spelling of Venezuela 8)
Your heroes aren't the best at spelling either. Of course it could be brainwashing which in your case seems to work very well.
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/272722/FOX-HEADLINE-FAIL.jpg)
:D :D
Caught once a................gain trying to be an out and out fecking
smart arse...I love it! ;D
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/netanyahu-backs-laws-to-limit-donations-to-israeli-human-rights-organizations-1.394256
Quote"Operating in Israel are organizations which have the goal of denouncing the state of Israel to the world at large, and transforming IDF soldiers and officers into pariah figures, while defaming their reputations. Such organizations receive financing from foreign sources and states, and the goal of these funds is to harm and alter public discourse in Israel,"
Sounds pretty reasonable to me to defund such rogue organizations
that don't have the Country's best interests at heart :-\
Who knows...maybe the US could learn something here 8)
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 08, 2011, 03:43:29 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 08, 2011, 09:53:06 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 08, 2011, 03:49:09 AM
One can only hope its the proper spelling of Venezuela 8)
Your heroes aren't the best at spelling either. Of course it could be brainwashing which in your case seems to work very well.
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/272722/FOX-HEADLINE-FAIL.jpg)
:D :D
Caught once a................gain trying to be an out and out fecking
smart arse...I love it! ;D
C'mon you could at least get it back over the net! ;D
Quote from: muppet on November 08, 2011, 05:45:17 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 08, 2011, 03:43:29 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 08, 2011, 09:53:06 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 08, 2011, 03:49:09 AM
One can only hope its the proper spelling of Venezuela 8)
Your heroes aren't the best at spelling either. Of course it could be brainwashing which in your case seems to work very well.
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/272722/FOX-HEADLINE-FAIL.jpg)
:D :D
Caught once a................gain trying to be an out and out fecking
smart arse...I love it! ;D
C'mon you could at least get it back over the net! ;D
As opposed to the usual over your head :D, and those you do see coming,
Its usually an embarrassing swing and a miss.
Keep up the good work!
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 08, 2011, 05:51:43 PM
As opposed to the usual over your head :D, and those you do see coming,
Its usually an embarrassing swing and a miss.
Keep up the good work!
That screw is getting very loose.
Quote from: muppet on November 08, 2011, 06:03:02 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 08, 2011, 05:51:43 PM
As opposed to the usual over your head :D, and those you do see coming,
Its usually an embarrassing swing and a miss.
Keep up the good work!
That screw is getting very loose.
:D Sure muppet...blame the racquet :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=We1sq_ee0w0
I see that Israel will not release 14 Irish citizens from custody because they refused to sign a sheet of paper that says they entered Israel illegally. What a joke, they were kidnapped from a boat in international waters and forcibly brought to Israel by her army. Maybe we should stick their ambassador in jail for a bit.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 08, 2011, 11:23:12 PM
I see that Israel will not release 14 Irish citizens from custody because they refused to sign a sheet of paper that says they entered Israel illegally. What a joke, they were kidnapped from a boat in international waters and forcibly brought to Israel by her army. Maybe we should stick their ambassador in jail for a bit.
Israel could sent a couple of F15s down O'Connell Street at 100 feet and what would we do?
QuoteIsrael could sent a couple of F15s down O'Connell Street at 100 feet and what would we do?
Ask them to take out the Spire?
Who do we believe in this?
Secret Iran tests linked to nuclear arms
Wednesday, November 09, 2011
IRAN is suspected of conducting secret experiments whose sole purpose is to develop nuclear arms, the UN nuclear atomic energy agency said yesterday for the first time.
The report is the strongest sign yet that Iran seeks to build a nuclear arsenal, despite claims to the contrary. With Israel threatening a military response, the report opens the way for a new confrontation between the West and Iran.
In its latest report on Iran, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) outlines the sum of its knowledge on the alleged secret nuclear weapons work, including:
*Clandestine procurement of equipment and design information needed to make such arms;
*High explosives testing and detonator development to set off a nuclear charge;
*Computer modelling of a core of a nuclear warhead;
*Preparatory work for a nuclear weapons test;
*Developing and mounting a nuclear payload onto its Shahab 3 intermediate range missile — a weapon that can reach Israel, Iran's arch foe.
Mark Regev, Israeli government spokesman, said there is a government directive not to comment until Israel has studied the report in depth. But ahead of the report's release, Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak warned of a possible Israeli military strike against Iran's nuclear programme.
He told Israel Radio that he did not expect any new UN sanctions on Tehran to persuade it to stop its nuclear defiance, adding: "We continue to recommend to our friends in the world and to ourselves, not to take any option off the table."
The "all options on the table" phrase is often used by Israeli politicians to mean a military assault.
Iran's official IRNA news agency dismissed the IAEA report, saying it "repeats the past claims by the US and the Zionist regime, what was rejected in the past report of the agency".
The IRNA commentary said: "The head of the agency has included worthless comments and pictures provided by the intelligence services in the report." It said past inspections by the agency proved what was mentioned as a large steel container, which the IAEA believes is used for nuclear arms-related high explosives tests, were only "metal-constructed toilets".
While some of the suspected secret nuclear work outlined in the IAEA annex could also be used for peaceful purposes, "others are specific to nuclear weapons", said the report obtained by The Associated Press.
Some of the information was new — including evidence of a large metal chamber at a military site for nuclear-related explosives testing. The bulk, however, was a compilation and expansion of alleged work already partially revealed by the agency.
But a senior diplomat familiar with the report said its significance lay in its comprehensiveness, thereby reflecting that Iran apparently had engaged in all aspects of testing that were needed to develop such a weapon.
Also significant was the agency's decision to share most of what it knows or suspects about Iran's secret work with the 35-nation IAEA board and the UN Security Council.
Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/world/secret-iran-tests-linked-to-nuclear-arms-173319.html#ixzz1dBsgwkXC
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 08, 2011, 11:23:12 PM
I see that Israel will not release 14 Irish citizens from custody because they refused to sign a sheet of paper that says they entered Israel illegally. What a joke, they were kidnapped from a boat in international waters and forcibly brought to Israel by her army. Maybe we should stick their ambassador in jail for a bit.
Myles
Do you think Alan Shatter is going to do anything?
Quote from: seafoid on November 09, 2011, 08:24:12 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 08, 2011, 11:23:12 PM
I see that Israel will not release 14 Irish citizens from custody because they refused to sign a sheet of paper that says they entered Israel illegally. What a joke, they were kidnapped from a boat in international waters and forcibly brought to Israel by her army. Maybe we should stick their ambassador in jail for a bit.
Myles
Do you think Alan Shatter is going to do anything?
He might give them directions on how to nuke the spire but thats about it.
http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10847&Itemid=59
Judge Delivers Ultimatum to Flotilla Activists: Confess or Face 2 Months Without Trial
09.11.11 - 22:23
PNN
Fifteen of the activists from the Freedom Waves to Gaza flotilla came before an Israeli court on Tuesday, and were advised they could be held for up to 2 months without charges or a trial.
One Australian, one British, two Canadians, and 14 Irish activists remain imprisoned by Israel after five days. In order to avoid further incarceration, the judge told the detainees they could sign a statement declaring that they entered Israel voluntarily and illegally.
They were hijacked in international waters FFS.
Eamon Gilmore needs to get off his fat lazy arse and haul in the Ambassador immediately and get him to explain the illegal actions of the Israeli military.
I heard one of the fathers on the radio this morning who tried to contact the Dept of Foreign Affairs only to be told "there will be nobody here until 9".
FFS!
QuoteEamon Gilmore needs to get off his fat lazy arse and haul in the Ambassador immediately and get him to explain the illegal actions of the Israeli military.
Him and the dept are too busy closing down embassies in East Timor, Iran and the Vatican to have the time to deal with something like this!!
Maybe the Israel lovers will now see what a shower of cnuts the Israeli government is.
The world's biggest rogue state. >:(
Quote from: Rossfan on November 10, 2011, 02:14:10 PM
Maybe the Israel lovers will now see what a shower of cnuts the Israeli government is.
The world's biggest rogue state. >:(
Sadly I think not, "they'll" come up with any excuse to exonerate the Israeli state of any fault.
Perhaps Stew or TO can justify this
For Immediate Release: Thursday 10 November 2011
For more information, contact:
Laurence Davis 086 360 5053 (Outside of Ireland, add +353 and drop the 0)
Claudia Saba 086 393 8821
The seven Irish human rights activists due home in Ireland this afternoon at 2:25 pm were were at the last minute prevented from boarding their flight out of Ben Gurion airport by Israeli armed guards. They had been taken last night to a holding cell and were ready to board their 7:40 am flight to London this morning when at the last minute they were prevented from doing so by Israeli security forces and returned to Givon prison. All seven are now being detained indefinitely, with no further news available from Israeli authorities or the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs about when they will be released.An Irish Ship to Gaza shore team coordinator spoke briefly on the phone with Fintan Lane before communication was abruptly cut off. Lane said: "This is a deliberate and calculated attempt by the Israelis to break our spirit. It won't succeed."
Lane also reported that the seven had been subject to "continuous harassment and repeated, humiliating body searches" and were shackled and "denied sleep".
Gay Lawlor, Zoe Lawlor's brother, spoke briefly with Zoe, who described what was happening as "sheer malice" on the part of the Israelis.
The families of the detainees are phoning member of the Irish Ship to Gaza shore team this morning in great distress.
Laurence Davis, Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson, commented: "We are outraged by this latest attempt by the Israeli authorities to break the morale of the human rights activists, their families and their supporters, all of whom had been looking forward to the homecoming this afternoon in Dublin. This is yet another example of the cruelty and arrogance that the Palestinians face every day."
Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson Claudia Saba added: "It is particularly distressing for the families to learn that their loved ones won't be coming home as they had expected, and distressing that they have no update as to what exactly is happening or when they will be finally freed."
Quote from: seafoid on November 10, 2011, 10:15:24 PM
Perhaps Stew or TO can justify this
The silence has been deafening, or maybe not...
Just to clear up (latest from IPSM) i believe Fintan and Zoe are now in Istanbul. They are flying back tomorrow. They were brought to the plane by bus with the 5 others but were returned to holding cells in the aiport. The five who boarded the plance were in Germany about an hour ago and are on route to Dublin now.
The 7 remaining will be on a flight home tomorrow (subject to more change by the IDF)
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on November 10, 2011, 10:28:32 PM
Just to clear up (latest from IPSM) i believe Fintan and Zoe are now in Istanbul. They are flying back tomorrow. They were brought to the plane by bus with the 5 others but were returned to holding cells in the aiport. The five who boarded the plance were in Germany about an hour ago and are on route to Dublin now.
The 7 remaining will be on a flight home tomorrow (subject to more change by the IDF)
Did they sign the declaration stating that they had entered Israel illegally ?
As far as i can see they haven't which is why i added subject to the change by the IDF, Probably more distruption and dis-information provided to the Dept. of F. Affairs but rest assured Alan will defend the rights of the Irish Citizens ???
Quote from: PadraicHenryPearse on November 10, 2011, 10:56:07 PM
As far as i can see they haven't which is why i added subject to the change by the IDF, Probably more distruption and dis-information provided to the Dept. of F. Affairs but rest assured Alan will defend the rights of the Irish Citizens ???
I think Israel is going to try and string them along with promises. They might be brought to the airport several times .
Israel is out of control.
Here is the deputy speaker of Parliament
http://972mag.com/likud-mk-%E2%80%9Cdelete%E2%80%9D-one-gaza-neighborhood-for-each-rocket-fired-from-the-strip/27411/
"For every missile that falls in Israel we delete a neighbourhood in Gaza".
If you had heard shatter on the last word yesterday it would make you Puke. He should f**k off to Israel if he is not able to represent Irish citizens properly. Their ambassador should have been expelled when the Irish passports were robbed, he should definitely be booted out now. How ironic the victims of fascism are now one of the worlds finest proponents of it.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 10, 2011, 11:14:34 PM
If you had heard shatter on the last word yesterday it would make you Puke. He should f**k off to Israel if he is not able to represent Irish citizens properly. Their ambassador should have been expelled when the Irish passports were robbed, he should definitely be booted out now. How ironic the victims of fascism are now one of the worlds finest proponents of it.
That's the saddest part of all of this.
What is the value of holding an Irish passport now? We, the citizens, have a contract with our government, the legal documentation of which is the passport, a document for which we pay €80, which requires them to require other governments to provide us with free passage into and through their territories. What is our government doing to take Israel to task for abducting Irish passport holders on the high seas and illegally transporting them to and imprisoning them in Israel?
Quote from: seafoid on November 10, 2011, 10:15:24 PM
Perhaps Stew or TO can justify this
For Immediate Release: Thursday 10 November 2011
For more information, contact:
Laurence Davis 086 360 5053 (Outside of Ireland, add +353 and drop the 0)
Claudia Saba 086 393 8821
The seven Irish human rights activists due home in Ireland this afternoon at 2:25 pm were were at the last minute prevented from boarding their flight out of Ben Gurion airport by Israeli armed guards. They had been taken last night to a holding cell and were ready to board their 7:40 am flight to London this morning when at the last minute they were prevented from doing so by Israeli security forces and returned to Givon prison. All seven are now being detained indefinitely, with no further news available from Israeli authorities or the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs about when they will be released.An Irish Ship to Gaza shore team coordinator spoke briefly on the phone with Fintan Lane before communication was abruptly cut off. Lane said: "This is a deliberate and calculated attempt by the Israelis to break our spirit. It won't succeed."
Lane also reported that the seven had been subject to "continuous harassment and repeated, humiliating body searches" and were shackled and "denied sleep".
Gay Lawlor, Zoe Lawlor's brother, spoke briefly with Zoe, who described what was happening as "sheer malice" on the part of the Israelis.
The families of the detainees are phoning member of the Irish Ship to Gaza shore team this morning in great distress.
Laurence Davis, Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson, commented: "We are outraged by this latest attempt by the Israeli authorities to break the morale of the human rights activists, their families and their supporters, all of whom had been looking forward to the homecoming this afternoon in Dublin. This is yet another example of the cruelty and arrogance that the Palestinians face every day."
Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson Claudia Saba added: "It is particularly distressing for the families to learn that their loved ones won't be coming home as they had expected, and distressing that they have no update as to what exactly is happening or when they will be finally freed."
I can't personally.
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 11, 2011, 01:59:52 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 10, 2011, 10:15:24 PM
Perhaps Stew or TO can justify this
For Immediate Release: Thursday 10 November 2011
For more information, contact:
Laurence Davis 086 360 5053 (Outside of Ireland, add +353 and drop the 0)
Claudia Saba 086 393 8821
The seven Irish human rights activists due home in Ireland this afternoon at 2:25 pm were were at the last minute prevented from boarding their flight out of Ben Gurion airport by Israeli armed guards. They had been taken last night to a holding cell and were ready to board their 7:40 am flight to London this morning when at the last minute they were prevented from doing so by Israeli security forces and returned to Givon prison. All seven are now being detained indefinitely, with no further news available from Israeli authorities or the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs about when they will be released.An Irish Ship to Gaza shore team coordinator spoke briefly on the phone with Fintan Lane before communication was abruptly cut off. Lane said: "This is a deliberate and calculated attempt by the Israelis to break our spirit. It won't succeed."
Lane also reported that the seven had been subject to "continuous harassment and repeated, humiliating body searches" and were shackled and "denied sleep".
Gay Lawlor, Zoe Lawlor's brother, spoke briefly with Zoe, who described what was happening as "sheer malice" on the part of the Israelis.
The families of the detainees are phoning member of the Irish Ship to Gaza shore team this morning in great distress.
Laurence Davis, Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson, commented: "We are outraged by this latest attempt by the Israeli authorities to break the morale of the human rights activists, their families and their supporters, all of whom had been looking forward to the homecoming this afternoon in Dublin. This is yet another example of the cruelty and arrogance that the Palestinians face every day."
Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson Claudia Saba added: "It is particularly distressing for the families to learn that their loved ones won't be coming home as they had expected, and distressing that they have no update as to what exactly is happening or when they will be finally freed."
I can't personally.
Can you condemn it then?
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2011, 03:01:27 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 11, 2011, 01:59:52 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 10, 2011, 10:15:24 PM
Perhaps Stew or TO can justify this
For Immediate Release: Thursday 10 November 2011
For more information, contact:
Laurence Davis 086 360 5053 (Outside of Ireland, add +353 and drop the 0)
Claudia Saba 086 393 8821
The seven Irish human rights activists due home in Ireland this afternoon at 2:25 pm were were at the last minute prevented from boarding their flight out of Ben Gurion airport by Israeli armed guards. They had been taken last night to a holding cell and were ready to board their 7:40 am flight to London this morning when at the last minute they were prevented from doing so by Israeli security forces and returned to Givon prison. All seven are now being detained indefinitely, with no further news available from Israeli authorities or the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs about when they will be released.An Irish Ship to Gaza shore team coordinator spoke briefly on the phone with Fintan Lane before communication was abruptly cut off. Lane said: "This is a deliberate and calculated attempt by the Israelis to break our spirit. It won't succeed."
Lane also reported that the seven had been subject to "continuous harassment and repeated, humiliating body searches" and were shackled and "denied sleep".
Gay Lawlor, Zoe Lawlor's brother, spoke briefly with Zoe, who described what was happening as "sheer malice" on the part of the Israelis.
The families of the detainees are phoning member of the Irish Ship to Gaza shore team this morning in great distress.
Laurence Davis, Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson, commented: "We are outraged by this latest attempt by the Israeli authorities to break the morale of the human rights activists, their families and their supporters, all of whom had been looking forward to the homecoming this afternoon in Dublin. This is yet another example of the cruelty and arrogance that the Palestinians face every day."
Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson Claudia Saba added: "It is particularly distressing for the families to learn that their loved ones won't be coming home as they had expected, and distressing that they have no update as to what exactly is happening or when they will be finally freed."
I can't personally.
Can you condemn it then?
He'll be deported from the US if he does
IRISH TIMES REPORTERS
The remaining nine Irish citizens detained after they tried to breach Israel's naval blockade of Gaza over a week ago are due to return to Ireland today.Five of the 14 flew into Dublin airport late yesterday after earlier failing to make a British Airways flight they were scheduled to travel on.
Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamon Gilmore said today he had some concerns around aspects of the activists' detention and said he would follow this up with the Israeli authorities once all 14 had returned to Ireland.
The Irish embassy in Tel Aviv yesterday lodged two "firm protests" with the Israeli authorities over the treatment of Irish activists who missed two planned flights due to what the Israelis claimed were security procedures.
The Israeli embassy claimed the airline took a decision not to allow all seven on board. "The reasons for this decision are unknown to us, and must be sought from British Airways," a statement from the embassy said.
A spokesman for British Airways, however, said the airline was due to carry only two deportees at the request of the Israeli authorities. He said those two arrived at the aircraft too late to make the flight.
Arrangements were then made for all seven to travel on a Lufthansa flight later yesterday afternoon.
Irish diplomats present at the airport, including Ambassador Breifne O'Reilly, made repeated requests to be allowed accompany the activists to the aircraft but these were declined by the Israeli authorities.
In the end, all but two of the seven activists, campaign co-ordinator Fintan Lane and university lecturer Zoe Lawlor, were allowed board the Lufthansa aircraft.
The Israeli embassy refused to provide an explanation for why Mr Lane and Ms Lawlor were prevented from boarding the flight, saying it could not refer to "the events which took place at Ben Gurion airport this afternoon because it has to do with security matters."
It also blamed the activists for their predicament.
"Since the whole \[flotilla] episode was a mere provocation, then it is obviously in the interest of the participants - and certainly not in the interest of Israel - to prolong it as much as they can," the embassy said in a statement.
"We can only express our earnest hope that these people leave Israeli soil as quickly as possible." The Irish Ship to Gaza campaign branded what transpired at the airport "bizarre and cruel" and Irish diplomats privately expressed frustration.
Mr Lane and Ms Lawlor eventually succeeded in boarding a Turkish Airlines flight to Istanbul yesterday evening and are expected home today.The remaining seven activists, including Socialist MEP Paul Murphy flew out of Israel on an El Al flight today.
Quote from: seafoid on November 11, 2011, 09:46:11 AM
The Israeli embassy ....blamed the activists for their predicament.
"We can only express our earnest hope that these people leave Israeli soil as quickly as possible." .
That last comment really shows these bitter extremist Zionist cnuts live in a parallel universe.
Or is it Alice's wonderland.?
The Activists were captured on the high seas and detained in Israel against their will. They wanted to get out but weren't let by the Rogue State.
Quote from: Rossfan on November 11, 2011, 10:22:33 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 11, 2011, 09:46:11 AM
The Israeli embassy ....blamed the activists for their predicament.
"We can only express our earnest hope that these people leave Israeli soil as quickly as possible." .
That last comment really shows these bitter extremist Zionist cnuts live in a parallel universe.
Or is it Alice's wonderland.?
The Activists were captured on the high seas and detained in Israel against their will. They wanted to get out but weren't let by the Rogue State.
Israel richly deserves the sanctions that its apartheid policies will draw.
http://www.thecornerreport.com/index.php?p=6780&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1#more6780
Intifada Palestine
By: Didi Remez
The Israel Project (TIP), an American Hasbara outfit, commissioned Republican political consultant Frank Luntz to examine the effectiveness of Israel's public diplomacy in the US on the Flotilla debacle. TIP gave the memo to the Prime Minister's Office, where someone promptly leaked it to Chico Menashe, Channel Ten TV News diplomatic affairs correspondent.
Luntz's findings are grim. Here's a summary:
1. 56% of Americans agree with the claim that there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza;
2. 43% of Americans agree with the claim that people in Gaza are starving;
3. [Only] 34% of Americans support the Israeli operation against the Flotilla;
4. [Only] 20% of Americans "felt support" for Israel following announcement of easing of Gaza closure.
Menashe wraps:
The figures are troubling and worrisome. If that is the situation with our great friend the US, it is easy to imagine the situation in other, somewhat less sympathetic countries.
Frank Luntz analyses Netanyahu's media performance in the flotilla affair
The figures are troubling and worrisome. If that is the situation with our great friend the US, it is easy to imagine the situation in other, somewhat less sympathetic countries.
Channel Ten TV News, July 1 2010 20:38
Yaacov Eilon (host): Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is considered to make an extremely persuasive presentation in the world press. But a professional analysis by a US expert presented yesterday to his senior aides strongly criticizes him. Netanyahu's messages on the flotilla caused more harm than good. Our political correspondent Chico Menashe has obtained the report.
Chico Menashe: Criticism of Prime Minister Netanyahu's current PR messages and Israeli PR in general comes from the international elite of media consultants and pollsters and from the mouth of Frank Luntz, considered one of the leading American political consultants, a Republican pollster, a consultant to many governments throughout the world and to dozens of the biggest corporations in the US. He was asked by the Jewish organization The Israel Project to check the opinions of the American public on the messages Israel issued to the world during and after the flotilla events. The result is a harsh document that primarily criticizes the media strategy of the person considered Israel's number one propagandist in the world, Prime Minister Netanyahu.
Quote from: Rossfan on November 11, 2011, 09:15:35 AM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2011, 03:01:27 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 11, 2011, 01:59:52 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 10, 2011, 10:15:24 PM
Perhaps Stew or TO can justify this
For Immediate Release: Thursday 10 November 2011
For more information, contact:
Laurence Davis 086 360 5053 (Outside of Ireland, add +353 and drop the 0)
Claudia Saba 086 393 8821
The seven Irish human rights activists due home in Ireland this afternoon at 2:25 pm were were at the last minute prevented from boarding their flight out of Ben Gurion airport by Israeli armed guards. They had been taken last night to a holding cell and were ready to board their 7:40 am flight to London this morning when at the last minute they were prevented from doing so by Israeli security forces and returned to Givon prison. All seven are now being detained indefinitely, with no further news available from Israeli authorities or the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs about when they will be released.An Irish Ship to Gaza shore team coordinator spoke briefly on the phone with Fintan Lane before communication was abruptly cut off. Lane said: "This is a deliberate and calculated attempt by the Israelis to break our spirit. It won't succeed."
Lane also reported that the seven had been subject to "continuous harassment and repeated, humiliating body searches" and were shackled and "denied sleep".
Gay Lawlor, Zoe Lawlor's brother, spoke briefly with Zoe, who described what was happening as "sheer malice" on the part of the Israelis.
The families of the detainees are phoning member of the Irish Ship to Gaza shore team this morning in great distress.
Laurence Davis, Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson, commented: "We are outraged by this latest attempt by the Israeli authorities to break the morale of the human rights activists, their families and their supporters, all of whom had been looking forward to the homecoming this afternoon in Dublin. This is yet another example of the cruelty and arrogance that the Palestinians face every day."
Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson Claudia Saba added: "It is particularly distressing for the families to learn that their loved ones won't be coming home as they had expected, and distressing that they have no update as to what exactly is happening or when they will be finally freed."
I can't personally.
Can you condemn it then?
QuoteHe'll be deported from the US if he doesQuote
You see this is a perfect example of that
"collective wisdom of individual ignorance"
I mention here on occasion...
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2011, 03:01:27 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 11, 2011, 01:59:52 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 10, 2011, 10:15:24 PM
Perhaps Stew or TO can justify this
For Immediate Release: Thursday 10 November 2011
For more information, contact:
Laurence Davis 086 360 5053 (Outside of Ireland, add +353 and drop the 0)
Claudia Saba 086 393 8821
The seven Irish human rights activists due home in Ireland this afternoon at 2:25 pm were were at the last minute prevented from boarding their flight out of Ben Gurion airport by Israeli armed guards. They had been taken last night to a holding cell and were ready to board their 7:40 am flight to London this morning when at the last minute they were prevented from doing so by Israeli security forces and returned to Givon prison. All seven are now being detained indefinitely, with no further news available from Israeli authorities or the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs about when they will be released.An Irish Ship to Gaza shore team coordinator spoke briefly on the phone with Fintan Lane before communication was abruptly cut off. Lane said: "This is a deliberate and calculated attempt by the Israelis to break our spirit. It won't succeed."
Lane also reported that the seven had been subject to "continuous harassment and repeated, humiliating body searches" and were shackled and "denied sleep".
Gay Lawlor, Zoe Lawlor's brother, spoke briefly with Zoe, who described what was happening as "sheer malice" on the part of the Israelis.
The families of the detainees are phoning member of the Irish Ship to Gaza shore team this morning in great distress.
Laurence Davis, Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson, commented: "We are outraged by this latest attempt by the Israeli authorities to break the morale of the human rights activists, their families and their supporters, all of whom had been looking forward to the homecoming this afternoon in Dublin. This is yet another example of the cruelty and arrogance that the Palestinians face every day."
Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson Claudia Saba added: "It is particularly distressing for the families to learn that their loved ones won't be coming home as they had expected, and distressing that they have no update as to what exactly is happening or when they will be finally freed."
I can't personally.
Can you condemn it then?
Yes....
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 11, 2011, 02:09:58 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2011, 03:01:27 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 11, 2011, 01:59:52 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 10, 2011, 10:15:24 PM
Perhaps Stew or TO can justify this
For Immediate Release: Thursday 10 November 2011
For more information, contact:
Laurence Davis 086 360 5053 (Outside of Ireland, add +353 and drop the 0)
Claudia Saba 086 393 8821
The seven Irish human rights activists due home in Ireland this afternoon at 2:25 pm were were at the last minute prevented from boarding their flight out of Ben Gurion airport by Israeli armed guards. They had been taken last night to a holding cell and were ready to board their 7:40 am flight to London this morning when at the last minute they were prevented from doing so by Israeli security forces and returned to Givon prison. All seven are now being detained indefinitely, with no further news available from Israeli authorities or the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs about when they will be released.An Irish Ship to Gaza shore team coordinator spoke briefly on the phone with Fintan Lane before communication was abruptly cut off. Lane said: "This is a deliberate and calculated attempt by the Israelis to break our spirit. It won't succeed."
Lane also reported that the seven had been subject to "continuous harassment and repeated, humiliating body searches" and were shackled and "denied sleep".
Gay Lawlor, Zoe Lawlor's brother, spoke briefly with Zoe, who described what was happening as "sheer malice" on the part of the Israelis.
The families of the detainees are phoning member of the Irish Ship to Gaza shore team this morning in great distress.
Laurence Davis, Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson, commented: "We are outraged by this latest attempt by the Israeli authorities to break the morale of the human rights activists, their families and their supporters, all of whom had been looking forward to the homecoming this afternoon in Dublin. This is yet another example of the cruelty and arrogance that the Palestinians face every day."
Irish Ship to Gaza spokesperson Claudia Saba added: "It is particularly distressing for the families to learn that their loved ones won't be coming home as they had expected, and distressing that they have no update as to what exactly is happening or when they will be finally freed."
I can't personally.
Can you condemn it then?
Yes....
Great progress! .
Next can you agree with social health insurance ?
Next we'll need Muppet to give you a lesson on
making assumptions based on assumptions ;)
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 11, 2011, 03:55:55 PM
Next we'll need Muppet to give you a lesson on
making assumptions based on assumptions ;)
.....as against invading countries based on assumptions........... ::)
Quote from: muppet on November 11, 2011, 03:58:48 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 11, 2011, 03:55:55 PM
Next we'll need Muppet to give you a lesson on
making assumptions based on assumptions ;)
.....as against invading countries based on assumptions........... ::)
Depends on who you ask;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEIOtn1wk5g&feature=related
I can't wait to see what Fintan Lane and the rest of the crew have to say about Israel.
TO
Get your war on
Laugh your ass off
http://www.mnftiu.cc/category/gywo/war81/
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 11, 2011, 04:45:13 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 11, 2011, 03:58:48 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 11, 2011, 03:55:55 PM
Next we'll need Muppet to give you a lesson on
making assumptions based on assumptions ;)
.....as against invading countries based on assumptions........... ::)
Depends on who you ask;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEIOtn1wk5g&feature=related
Nope.
Tell me this, when did Clinton invade Iraq?
More lies. ::)
Jesus, a people are suffering and any humanitarian aid that is sent through is stopped!!
How blind does the world have to be before we act!
Quote from: muppet on November 11, 2011, 05:06:12 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 11, 2011, 04:45:13 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 11, 2011, 03:58:48 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 11, 2011, 03:55:55 PM
Next we'll need Muppet to give you a lesson on
making assumptions based on assumptions ;)
.....as against invading countries based on assumptions........... ::)
Depends on who you ask;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEIOtn1wk5g&feature=related
Nope.
Tell me this, when did Clinton invade Iraq?
More lies. ::)
He didn't have time, he was too busy running from the threat that was
Bin Laden whilst being the worlds police man by bombing
the fcuk out of the threat to the world that were the Serbs ::)
And in getting back to Iraq... It was Clinton's dodgy intelligence on WMD's
in the 90's that was the "Lie" that W hadn't told yet :-[
The video is pretty self explanatory...Clinton with massive bipartisan support
In the house and senate were convinced and committed to a regime change under the threat of WMD's and by any means necessary!
But yet it was Bush who lied...Clinton just got it wrong! :D
#Ignoranceisbliss
Yes, Clinton was the reason George Bush invaded Iraq.
His smoking but not inhaling was responsible for the disaster in Vietnam.
His love of bacon caused the Bay of Pigs too.
Quote from: muppet on November 12, 2011, 07:39:43 PM
Yes, Clinton was the reason George Bush invaded Iraq.
His smoking but not inhaling was responsible for the disaster in Vietnam.
His love of bacon caused the Bay of Pigs too.
Yes and when you clear the table off of all your nonsensical
Immature smoke and mirrors rubbish, what are you left with
....the fact that Bush was far from alone in the belief there were WMD's
or to put it in simpler terms, the
"lie" that
he supposedly told wasn't picked up off the floor!
Its pretty clear that there wouldn't be a lot of people on here that would
be aware of that fact and for those of you that are, are very uneasy with facts like that.
Truth generally does that to vindictive, spiteful pretenders like you muppet :-X
Quote from: Tyrones own on November 12, 2011, 09:06:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 12, 2011, 07:39:43 PM
Yes, Clinton was the reason George Bush invaded Iraq.
His smoking but not inhaling was responsible for the disaster in Vietnam.
His love of bacon caused the Bay of Pigs too.
Yes and when you clear the table off of all your nonsensical
Immature smoke and mirrors rubbish, what are you left with
....the fact that Bush was far from alone in the belief there were WMD's
or to put it in simpler terms, the "lie" that
he supposedly told wasn't picked up off the floor!
Its pretty clear that there wouldn't be a lot of people on here that would
be aware of that fact and for those of you that are, are very uneasy with facts like that.
Truth generally does that to vindictive, spiteful pretenders like you muppet :-X
That nonsense might fly in the States. But you are making a fool out of yourself posting it here. Iraq has been analysed on this side of the pond in a way Americans would not believe. Ask Tony Blair. His credibility is destroyed. Just like Bush's internationally. Only fools like yourself arguing with your nightmares might still believe.
However I acknowledge your blaming of Clinton (or Bush or whoever you want) for Iraq as an admission of guilt on behalf of the States.
(http://bobbiblogger.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/vote.jpg?w=300&h=247)
http://electronicintifada.net/blog/david/we-must-challenge-israeli-mindset-says-rugby-star-turned-blockade-buster
"We must challenge Israeli mindset," says rugby star turned blockade buster
Submitted by david on Fri, 11/11/2011 - 12:49
Trevor Hogan, best-known as an international rugby player, was one of 14 Irish people detained by Israel over the past week after they tried to break the illegal siege of Gaza.
In a telephone interview this morning, Hogan recalled how the MV Saoirse (called after the Gaelic word for freedom) and the Canadian-flagged Tahrir were approaching the waters off Gaza last Friday (4 November) afternoon when they were intercepted by the Israeli navy.
"They were circling us for ages, with their rifles trained on us," he told me. "It was surreal looking out our window at these guns."
Still in international waters, the two boats were surrounded by numerous Israeli vessels. Hogan estimates there were 15 or 16 vessels in total, including several full-sized warships. Eventually, the MV Saoirse was attacked by water cannons.
"The water cannons destroyed the electricity," said Hogan. "They flooded the engine room. We had to use emergency power. The boat could have sunk if it went on much longer."
Balaclava-clad Israeli commandos then boarded the Saoirse. "We just stayed sitting down peacefully," he added. "They wanted to search us on deck but we refused. We all acquitted ourselves well. One sudden move and they were sure to fire. My heart was pumping looking at this."
Hogan expected to be beaten when the Israelis brought their captives to the port of Ashdod. But the arrival of an Irish diplomat at the port "calmed things down."
Women "stressed and traumatized"
Hogan said that the Israelis kept him and the others awake on their first night in Givon Prison. But the treatment was even worse for the two women, Zoe Lawlor and Mags O'Brien, on the boat, who were detained separately from the 12 men.
"There was solidarity among us [the men]," he said. "We were all together. We managed to meet them [the two women] for 20 minutes each time the consular was there. You could see that the girls were stressed and traumatized. They were under serious pressure."
Yesterday morning, seven of the 14 were scheduled to be flown from Ben Gurion airport in Tel Aviv to London. Yet they were prevented from boarding a British Airways flight by the Israeli authorities and placed into cells in the airport.
"Givon was tough enough," Hogan said. "Ben Gurion was a lot worse. We thought we were going home and then we were banged up in cells. It was more decrepit. There was no information and no free association. We were held apart."
Israel has blamed British Airways for the episode at Ben Gurion, alleging that the carrier would not take the seven campaigners. "Maybe there was an element of the airline being at fault," Hogan explained. "But there was more to it than that. It was part of a pattern. They wanted lessons to be learnt and that's why they made life as difficult as they could for us. We didn't sign anything saying we were criminals, [even though] there were threats made that we would be kept [in prison] indefinitely."
Five of the Irish, including Hogan, were put on a later flight and arrived in Dublin late last night. Two others, Fintan Lane and Zoe Lawlor, were stopped from taking that later flight and were instead made to travel via Istanbul. They and the seven remaining prisoners are expected to land in Dublin today.
Effective tactic
Hogan retired from professional rugby earlier this year because of persistent knee injuries. His efforts to reach Gaza as part of the Freedom Flotilla II during the summer and now with the smaller Freedom Waves initiative have been supported by a number of Irish sports personalities.
He is adamant that the attempts to penetrate the Gaza blockade have been worthwhile. "We don't want to make out that we are the victims or martyrs," he said. "We were in Givon Prison. But Gaza is the world's largest prison. Whatever we have gone through, the Palestinians have to go through 10 times worse.
"It was very interesting to notice the attitude of the Israelis towards us. They couldn't comprehend why were doing this. What we were doing challenges their mindset and that is why it is such an effective tactic. They treat the Palestinians as if they are subhuman. They don't think Palestinians deserve to live in a normal society, to be able to import and export and fish and farm. It's great to be able to meet that mindset head on."
QuoteThey couldn't comprehend why were doing this.
The brain-washing works extremely well. I watched a current affairs programme on TV in California a few years ago. It was a discussion between an ordinary Joe type presenter and a 'Middle Eastern expert'.
The presenter reasonably asked why would young people living in Gaza, with all of their lives a head of them, volunteer to blow themselves to pieces? (this was when there were lots of suicide bombings)
The 'expert' went on a rant calling them less than human and said he couldn't understand why they didn't go to college like everyone else!
Quote from: muppet on November 14, 2011, 11:28:33 AM
QuoteThey couldn't comprehend why were doing this.
The brain-washing works extremely well. I watched a current affairs programme on TV in California a few years ago. It was a discussion between an ordinary Joe type presenter and a 'Middle Eastern expert'.
The presenter reasonably asked why would young people living in Gaza, with all of their lives a head of them, volunteer to blow themselves to pieces? (this was when there were lots of suicide bombings)
The 'expert' went on a rant calling them less than human and said he couldn't understand why they didn't go to college like everyone else!
In the 12th century Welsh writer Giraldus Cambrensis wrote that the Irish were "so barbarous as to not have any culture. A wild and inhospitable people who live like beasts, are devoted to laziness, barbarian (although incomparably skilled in music), treacherous and vicious. Their coronation ritual was detailed. "The King copulates with a white mare which is then slaughtered and boiled- the king washes in the water and his people eat the meat and drink the soup. "
http://books.google.ch/books?id=ihGBk8dTW9IC&pg=PA292&lpg=PA292&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false
We have heard all this colonial bullshit before and we don't buy it. Israel is just another coloniser.
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 12:18:18 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 14, 2011, 11:28:33 AM
QuoteThey couldn't comprehend why were doing this.
The brain-washing works extremely well. I watched a current affairs programme on TV in California a few years ago. It was a discussion between an ordinary Joe type presenter and a 'Middle Eastern expert'.
The presenter reasonably asked why would young people living in Gaza, with all of their lives a head of them, volunteer to blow themselves to pieces? (this was when there were lots of suicide bombings)
The 'expert' went on a rant calling them less than human and said he couldn't understand why they didn't go to college like everyone else!
In the 12th century Welsh writer Giraldus Cambrensis wrote that the Irish were "so barbarous as to not have any culture. A wild and inhospitable people who live like beasts, are devoted to laziness, barbarian (although incomparably skilled in music), treacherous and vicious. Their coronation ritual was detailed. "The King copulates with a white mare which is then slaughtered and boiled- the king washes in the water and his people eat the meat and drink the soup. "
http://books.google.ch/books?id=ihGBk8dTW9IC&pg=PA292&lpg=PA292&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false
We have heard all this colonial bullshit before and we don't buy it. Israel is just another coloniser.
In all fairness he only ever got as far as Tyrone.
Quote from: Hardy on November 14, 2011, 02:04:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 12:18:18 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 14, 2011, 11:28:33 AM
QuoteThey couldn't comprehend why were doing this.
The brain-washing works extremely well. I watched a current affairs programme on TV in California a few years ago. It was a discussion between an ordinary Joe type presenter and a 'Middle Eastern expert'.
The presenter reasonably asked why would young people living in Gaza, with all of their lives a head of them, volunteer to blow themselves to pieces? (this was when there were lots of suicide bombings)
The 'expert' went on a rant calling them less than human and said he couldn't understand why they didn't go to college like everyone else!
In the 12th century Welsh writer Giraldus Cambrensis wrote that the Irish were "so barbarous as to not have any culture. A wild and inhospitable people who live like beasts, are devoted to laziness, barbarian (although incomparably skilled in music), treacherous and vicious. Their coronation ritual was detailed. "The King copulates with a white mare which is then slaughtered and boiled- the king washes in the water and his people eat the meat and drink the soup. "
http://books.google.ch/books?id=ihGBk8dTW9IC&pg=PA292&lpg=PA292&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false
We have heard all this colonial bullshit before and we don't buy it. Israel is just another coloniser.
In all fairness he only ever got as far as Tyrone.
;)
I though the bit about the horse was very good.
They don't eat horse in England today either.
Quote from: Hardy on November 14, 2011, 02:04:48 PM
In all fairness he only ever got as far as Tyrone.
:D
You should remember though, that we were all angels before
that AI semi-final in '96!
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on November 12, 2011, 11:10:24 PM
(http://bobbiblogger.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/vote.jpg?w=300&h=247)
Exactly...hence the reason I'm not a Republican and needless to say, would never ever toe the
line set forth by Democrats ::)
Quote from: muppet on November 12, 2011, 09:52:27 PM
However I acknowledge your blaming of Clinton (or Bush or whoever you want) for Iraq as an admission of guilt on behalf of the States.
:o Fcuk... Finally an admission of blinkered ignorance on the part of the blame everything on Bush, Gobshite brigade on here
after all these years ;D
or are you simply just moving the goal posts.... again ::)
Turkey begins trial of Israeli military over Gaza ship killings
A court in Turkey is to put four former Israeli military commanders, including the head of the army, on trial in absentia this week for the 2010 killing of nine Turkish citizens on a Gaza-bound aid ship.
The trial, which begins in Istanbul today, will further test relations between the one-time strategic allies and has been dismissed by Israel as a "show trial" and "political theatre".
Relations between the Jewish state and what was once its only Muslim ally, crumbled after Israeli marines stormed the Mavi Marmara aid ship in May 2010 to enforce a naval blockade of the Palestinian-run Gaza Strip and killed nine Turks in clashes with activists on board.
The rift has continued despite US efforts to encourage a rapprochement between the two regional powers whose cooperation it needs to address changes sweeping the Middle East.
Israel and Nato member Turkey, which both border Syria, once shared intelligence information and conducted joint military exercises, cooperation which has since been cancelled.
A Turkish state prosecutor is seek multiple life sentences for the now retired Israeli officers over their involvement in the nine killings and the wounding of more than 50 others.
The indictment names Israel's former chief of general staff Gabi Ashkenazi, former navy commander Eliezer Marom, former air force commander Amos Yadlin and former head of air force intelligence Avishay Levi, seeking prison sentences of more than 18,000 years for each of them.
Among the charges listed in the 144-page indictment are "inciting murder through cruelty or torture" and "inciting injury with firearms".
A total of 490 people aboard the ship during the raid, including activists and journalists, are expected to give evidence. Normally barred from courtrooms, the trial will be officially recorded by television cameras, although proceedings are not expected to be broadcast.
"The 'Blue Marmara Trial' due to commence on November 6th in Istanbul, clearly falls under the category of a Show Trial; an act which has nothing to do with either law or justice," Israel's foreign ministry said in a statement. "This 'trial' does not qualify under any facet or foundation of a lawful judicial system, and is merely a propaganda display. It would be in Turkey's interest to deal with this issue through bilateral dialogue."
A Turkish foreign ministry official declined comment, saying the incident was now a matter for the judiciary.
Ties between the two states began to unravel even before the Mavi Marmara raid after Turkish prime minister Tayyip Erdogan stormed off a stage he was sharing with Shimon Peres at a World Economic Forum in 2009, saying the Israeli president knew "how to kill", a reference to the December 2008-January 2009 Gaza offensive.
But relations hit a new low when Turkey expelled Israel's ambassador and froze military cooperation after a UN report into the Mavi Marmara incident released in September last year largely exonerated the Jewish state.
That report was meant to encourage a rapprochement between the two countries but ultimately deepened the rift when it concluded Israel had used unreasonable force but that the blockade on Gaza was legal.
Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in July Israel and Turkey needed to repair their relationship, but attempts to rekindle the strategic relationship have failed.
Turkey has demanded a formal apology, compensation for victims and the families of the dead and for the Gaza blockade to be lifted.
Israel has voiced "regret", short of the full apology demanded, and has offered to pay into what it called a "humanitarian fund" through which casualties and relatives could be compensated.
IHH, the Turkish Islamic humanitarian agency which owns the Mavi Marmara, has said it expects the Turkish court to issue arrest warrants for the retired officers who would be obliged to be extradited to Turkey, a claim dismissed by Israel.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1106/breaking6.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/03/201332215412102859.html
Israel PM apologises for flotilla deaths
Israel Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu has said he "expressed apology" to Turkey for any error that led to the death of nine Turkish nationals in 2010 in the Gaza flotilla incident.
Netanyahu also said on Friday that Israel has also agreed to compensate the families of the victims.
In a phone call between Netanyahu and Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the "two men agreed to restore normalisation between Israel and Turkey, including the dispatch of ambassadors and the cancellation of legal steps against IDF soldiers," the statement said.
"In light of Israel's investigation into the incident which pointed to a number of operational mistakes, the Prime Minister expressed Israel's apology to the Turkish people for any mistakes that might have led to the loss of life or injury and agreed to conclude an agreement on compensation/nonliability."
Netanyahu also told Erdogan that Israel had "substantially" lifted restrictions on the entry of civilian goods into the Palestinian territories, including Gaza.
During the phone call, Erdogan underlined the importance of strong cooperation and friendship between Turkey and Israel, his office said.
"Erdogan told [Israeli premier] Binyamin Netanyahu that he valued centuries-long strong friendship and cooperation between the Turkish and Jewish nations".
At a joint press conference with Jordan's King Abdullah II, President Barack Obama said his administration has worked for months to reach the deal.
Obama said that the "moment was right" for Israel and Turkey to resume diplomatic relations.
In a separate statement from the White House, Obama said the US "deeply values our close partnerships with both Turkey and Israel, and we attach great importance to the restoration of positive relations between them in order to advance regional peace and security".
Obama has reportedly arranged the call at Ben Gurion airport just before he left Israel for Jordan.
Al Jazeera's Nicole Johnston, reporting from Jerusalem, described Netayahu's apology as "an incredible development" adding that it would be seen as a "huge achievement" of the Obama administration.
Johnston also said that it is a "great win for Turkey," which has been demanding the apology.
Meanwhile, Al Jazeera's Elif Ural, reporting from Istanbul, said that Hamas has sent a message expressing disappointment that Turkey has accepted the apology.
Commando raid
On May 31, 2010, Israeli commandos boarded a flotilla of six humanitarian ships on their way to Gaza.
Nine Turkish activists were killed on the lead ship Mavi Marmara, sparking international condemnation and contentious diplomatic dispute between Israel and Turkey.
An inquiry into the incident said Israel broke international humanitarian and human rights law.
The inquiry, which was later endorsed by the United Nations Human Rights Council, found "clear evidence to support prosecutions" for crimes including "wilful killing; torture or inhuman treatment; wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health."
Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught, reporting from Cairo, said Turkey got "almost everything it wanted" from the apology, including acknowledgement of Israel's "operational errors" and offer of compensation.
"This is an extraordinary event and a completely unexpected one," our correspondent said. "This has been enormously damaging schism between these two countries [Israel and Turkey]".
Israel has imposed a blockade on the Gaza Strip since June 2007 after the Palestinian group Hamas took control of the territory.
Though the Israeli restrictions have been eased, Israel still enforces a naval blockade on the territory.
The lifting of the blockade, which Turkey has also demanded from Israel, is not covered in the apology, according to Al Jazeera's McNaught.
Well done Bibi. A simple private apology and relations improved with Turkey. One less problem.
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 23, 2013, 05:51:36 PM
Well done Bibi. A simple private apology and relations improved with Turkey. One less problem.
What did he apologise for? I thought the people on the boat were all armed terrorists? I thought you agreed with that.
If Israel has to make an apology to improve relations with Turkey, then so be it. Bigger picture.
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 23, 2013, 06:53:43 PM
If Israel has to make an apology to improve relations with Turkey, then so be it. Bigger picture.
Israel apologises for executing 9 muslims with shots to the back.of the head. What operayional errors?
Quote from: seafoid on March 23, 2013, 09:21:14 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 23, 2013, 06:53:43 PM
If Israel has to make an apology to improve relations with Turkey, then so be it. Bigger picture.
Israel apologises for executing 9 muslims with shots to the back.of the head. What operayional errors?
Obama made a wee boy of Netanyahu.
While I wouldn't hold much hope for an eventual prosecution, this news is something positive.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/icc-prosecutor-opens-initial-probe-gaza-flotilla-192132769.html#SMT6HxQ
ICC prosecutor opens initial probe into Gaza flotilla
The International Criminal Court has opened a preliminary probe into Israel's deadly raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla in 2010, the prosecutor's office said Tuesday.
"My office will be conducting a preliminary examination in order to establish whether the criteria for opening an investigation are met," Fatou Bensouda said in a statement issued from the court based in The Hague.
Nine Turkish nationals died when Israeli commandos staged a botched pre-dawn raid on a six-ship flotilla seeking to bust Israel's naval blockade of the Gaza Strip on May 31, 2010.
Bensouda said she had met Istanbul-based lawyers who are acting for the government of the Comoros, which referred the case to her office.
The ship on which the activists sailed was registered in the Indian Ocean island country, which has been a state party to the ICC since 2006.
"After careful analysis of all available information, I shall make a determination that will be made public in due course," Bensouda said.
Israel imposed its blockade on Gaza in 2006 after militants there seized an Israeli soldier, who was eventually freed in 2011 in a trade for 1,000 Palestinian prisoners held by Israel.
The blockade was strengthened in 2007, when the Islamist Hamas movement took control of Gaza, then eased somewhat following an international outcry over the killing of the Turkish activists.
The maritime assault severely wrecked relations between the former regional allies, with Ankara demanding a formal apology and compensation for the families of the raid victims, as well as the lifting of the blockade.
Bensouda's office receive numerous requests every year for probes into alleged crimes like genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes.
According to the Rome Statute, the court's founding document, prosecutors may now gather initial information about the case.
If Bensouda believes she had enough evidence, she may then approach judges for the go-ahead to open a full investigation which could lead to a future trial.
Prosecutors are also busy with initial probes in several other countries like Afghanistan, Colombia and Nigeria, but so far no decision whether to ask judges for permission to open full investigations had been made following these investigations.
Established in 2002, the ICC is the world's only permanent independent tribunal, set up to try the world's worst crimes.
Good. Let's get the whole story out in the open. Warts and all.
Hard to believe its 3 years ago today that the Mavi Marmara was attacked and 9 people were murdered by Israel for daring to sail to Gaza with humanitarian aid. While no one has been charged with their murders, the pressure builds day by day in the hope that some one will be held accountable. I will not be holding my breath though.
3rd anniversary of fatal Mavi Marmara raid
Three years after the Mavi Marmara incident, in which eight Turks and one Turkish American were killed by Israeli troops, Turkey and Israel have yet to agree on the conditions of a reconciliation.
Exactly three years ago, on May 31, 2010, a humanitarian aid flotilla on a mission to the Gaza Strip was raided by Israeli commandos in international waters. Following the attack, Turkey described the raid as a violation of international law "tantamount to banditry and piracy" and called the killings of activists "state-sponsored terrorism." Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan even said the attack on the Mavi Marmara ship, which was a part of the aid flotilla, was a "cause for war," but Turkey chose "to act with patience."
Turkey withdrew its ambassador to Israel in the immediate aftermath of the raid, leaving the embassy operational at the level of envoy. But after waiting for 15 months for Israel to formally apologize for the killings with no result, Turkey announced in September 2011 that it had downgraded diplomatic ties with Tel Aviv to the lowest level of second secretary and put on hold all military contracts and ties with the state.
Turkey's move came right after details of a UN report on the attack was leaked and made public that month. The report conceded that the use of force by Israel during the raid was unnecessary and disproportionate, but it justified the Israeli-imposed blockade on Gaza.
The report's recommendations failed to meet Turkey's demands, so the state announced the package of sanctions against Israel, stipulating that for bilateral diplomatic relations to be normalized once more, Israel must apologize, pay compensation to the victims' families and lift the blockade on Gaza -- which, in contrast to the UN report, Turkey considered to be illegal. The report was initially intended to be released in February of that year, but it had been delayed to give Israel and Turkey time to reach an agreement without a disruption of relations the findings might have caused.
Since the attack, Israel has made numerous attempts to normalize diplomatic relations with Turkey, but all efforts initially failed because, though Israel had expressed regret several times, it refused to offer a formal apology.
In late March this year, the Israeli government agreed -- through the mediation of US President Barrack Obama -- to apologize. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's apology to Erdoğan over the telephone was well-received by Turkey.
"All our demands have now been met, the apology offered the way we wanted," Erdoğan said in a speech a day after the phone call. "I accepted the apology in the name of the Turkish people," he added.
Since then, substantial progress in talks between the two sides seems to have been made, but hurdles on the way to complete reconciliation still exist. This week, Deputy Prime Minister Bülent Arınç made it clear that what's important for Turkey in regards to the steps Israel is expected to make is that, along with the apology, compensation and the lifting of the Gaza blockade must be implemented altogether. "Israel needs to take a positive step, particularly in regards to the third [demand, the removal of the blockade]," Arınç revealed. The issue of compensation is not yet totally settled either, the deputy prime minister also admitted. There are one or two issues that still need to be worked out. "We will continue working on these," he said.
The families of the nine victims have taken the attack on the Mavi Marmara to court in and outside of Turkey. In the court case in Turkey, which was launched against the aggressors in November of last year, the indictment prepared by İstanbul Specially Authorized Prosecutor Mehmet Akif Ekinci seeks 10 aggravated life sentences for the four top Israeli commanders, including the country's chief of General Staff, who were involved in the 2010 Israeli attack on the Gaza-bound aid flotilla.
The attack also has recently been taken to the International Criminal Court (ICC). Lawyers of the victims' families filed a complaint in mid-May against Israel at the court in The Hague. "If this case fails to produce a result, this will show that this court is under the hegemony of certain countries and is used only to make some countries toe the line politically," Ramazan Arıtürk, one of the lawyers of the victims' families said.
The families are determined to pursue a criminal court case against the Israeli commanders involved in the raid, although Israel wants the lawsuits against its soldiers to be dropped as part of the agreement on compensation.
http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=110216
Martin Luther King on why his daughter wasn't allowed to go to a whites only
kids park in Atlanta in the 1960s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmIzmUfYB5Y
Segregation at Superland: Separate days for Arab and Jewish students at amusement park
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/segregation-at-superland-separate-days-for-arab-and-jewish-students-at-amusement-park.premium-1.526705#
Jaffa schoolteacher says he encountered policy of segregation at Israeli amusement park when attempting to book tickets for a class trip.
By Ilan Lior | May.30, 2013 | 2:21 AM | 24
A teacher at a Jaffa school accounted encountering a policy of segregation between Arab and Jewish students while attempting to book tickets for his class at the Superland amusement park in Rishon Letzion.
Khaled Shakra, who teaches seventh grade at the Ajial school in Jaffa, called Superland on Tuesday afternoon with the aim of booking tickets for his class to have a fun end- of-term day out. He says that a Superland representative offered him three options: the 17th, 18th and 19th June.
He asked to reserve 25 spaces for his students on the 18th, but was asked to provide the school's details before the reservation could be confirmed.
Shakra says that the moment the representative heard the name Ajial – and realized it was an Arab school – he was suddenly put on hold. Another representative was put on the line who told him that the dates he was interested in were not available.
A few minutes later he called and introduced himself under the name of Eyal, who was enquiring on behalf of a Jewish organization. The Superland representative offered him the same dates that only a moment before had been unavailable.
Following the reports, Justice Minister Tzipi Livni contacted Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein on Tuesday night with a request that he examine whether Superland has discriminated against Arab students. "If these allegations are proved to be correct, then this is a symptom of a sick democracy. Any incident such as this must be severely dealt with," Livni said.
On Wednesday, Shakra posted a letter on his Facebook page that described the sequence of events and his feelings on the matter. "I have experienced another sickening, racist, event and something within me is screaming to be released. Another stain, another wound has today been etched into the depths of my soul, and I am trying, unsuccessfully, to make sense of what has happened. How can I supress my anger and the deep bitterness I am currently feeling?"
He described the moment the Superland representative discovered the name of the school. "She suddenly fell silent and then asked me in confusion: 'what? What is that?' 'Ajial!A-j-i-a-l,' I answered confidentially. I didn't understand if the letter 'j' bothered her or the city of Jaffa bothered her, but I suddenly had the sober realization of what it was that was going through her head. I panicked and stopped abruptly. She responded "just a moment, sir!' And I suddenly heard the hold music. I can't put into words my feelings and thoughts at that exact moment, but for some reason the faces of my students popped into my head."
After waiting on the line for three minutes, Shakra was transferred to another representative who claimed that there were no free spots on June 17th or 18th, and offered that he come on the 19th. "I didn't hesitate, and told her that the 19th wouldn't be a problem. But less than a minute later she said 'I apologize, but we don't have any free spaces on the 19th either." A few minutes later, he called again. "This time I said my name was Eyal, and that I was interested in reserving some tickets for the Jewish organization I work for. 'Eyal? the 17th, 18th and 19th are free, which option would you like?' was the response."
"I ask myself whether the Arab feels he is discriminated against in all walks of life, is pushed to the sidelines politically, socially, culturally and feels, quite rightly, that he is being controlled instead of being included? No, my question is not [intended to be] provocative, but it is a harsh reality, and therefore it raises tough questions and presents complex and difficult problems," he wrote. He concluded: "Peace between two peoples, between two national movements, and the ability to heal the wounds both sides have incurred after all the wars are the heart's desire of every Arab. My dear students, I apologize in advance! I have no idea what your reactions will be but I really did try. During a whole year I tried to instill you with values. Acceptance of others is first and foremost, but the reality out there says otherwise."
The Ajial school in Jaffa has a middle school and high school for Arabic speaking students. "This is unacceptable, racist segregation," said the school's principal, Jalal Tuhi, on Tuesday night. "This is a special school in terms of its students and teachers. It has a mixed faculty. There are Jewish teachers, and Muslim, Christian and even Druze teachers...this is how we see the future of this country and this city. I asked the teacher not to remain silent about this because we are fed up of this segregation and this racist treatment, full stop. I want my students to know that they need to fight for their rights, and not give up."
In response, Superland's management told the Walla website on Tuesday: "we open our gates to all of Israel and all sectors of the public all year round. Everyone can buy a ticket through the website, or directly through the ticketing office...however, in June we hold closed events for the school year end. The schools dictate which schools will enter the event. There are reservations for closed days held by Jewish schools. There are reservations for closed days held by Arab schools."
Six months ago, a similar incident was reported at the Soho restaurant in Rishon Letzion. Arab citizens who tried to place an order at the restaurant recorded conversations with employees that showed that when the couple tried to order a table under an Arab name they were fobbed off with a variety of excuses. A short while later they succeeded in making the same booking using a Jewish name.
Excellent video of that night, with eye witness statements of what they witnessed.
All aboard. Witnesses of the Mavi Marmara attack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6c0z0NJmx8
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2013, 02:02:07 PM
Martin Luther King on why his daughter wasn't allowed to go to a whites only
kids park in Atlanta in the 1960s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmIzmUfYB5Y
Segregation at Superland: Separate days for Arab and Jewish students at amusement park
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/segregation-at-superland-separate-days-for-arab-and-jewish-students-at-amusement-park.premium-1.526705#
Jaffa schoolteacher says he encountered policy of segregation at Israeli amusement park when attempting to book tickets for a class trip.
By Ilan Lior | May.30, 2013 | 2:21 AM | 24
A teacher at a Jaffa school accounted encountering a policy of segregation between Arab and Jewish students while attempting to book tickets for his class at the Superland amusement park in Rishon Letzion.
Khaled Shakra, who teaches seventh grade at the Ajial school in Jaffa, called Superland on Tuesday afternoon with the aim of booking tickets for his class to have a fun end- of-term day out. He says that a Superland representative offered him three options: the 17th, 18th and 19th June.
He asked to reserve 25 spaces for his students on the 18th, but was asked to provide the school's details before the reservation could be confirmed.
Shakra says that the moment the representative heard the name Ajial – and realized it was an Arab school – he was suddenly put on hold. Another representative was put on the line who told him that the dates he was interested in were not available.
A few minutes later he called and introduced himself under the name of Eyal, who was enquiring on behalf of a Jewish organization. The Superland representative offered him the same dates that only a moment before had been unavailable.
Following the reports, Justice Minister Tzipi Livni contacted Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein on Tuesday night with a request that he examine whether Superland has discriminated against Arab students. "If these allegations are proved to be correct, then this is a symptom of a sick democracy. Any incident such as this must be severely dealt with," Livni said.
On Wednesday, Shakra posted a letter on his Facebook page that described the sequence of events and his feelings on the matter. "I have experienced another sickening, racist, event and something within me is screaming to be released. Another stain, another wound has today been etched into the depths of my soul, and I am trying, unsuccessfully, to make sense of what has happened. How can I supress my anger and the deep bitterness I am currently feeling?"
He described the moment the Superland representative discovered the name of the school. "She suddenly fell silent and then asked me in confusion: 'what? What is that?' 'Ajial!A-j-i-a-l,' I answered confidentially. I didn't understand if the letter 'j' bothered her or the city of Jaffa bothered her, but I suddenly had the sober realization of what it was that was going through her head. I panicked and stopped abruptly. She responded "just a moment, sir!' And I suddenly heard the hold music. I can't put into words my feelings and thoughts at that exact moment, but for some reason the faces of my students popped into my head."
After waiting on the line for three minutes, Shakra was transferred to another representative who claimed that there were no free spots on June 17th or 18th, and offered that he come on the 19th. "I didn't hesitate, and told her that the 19th wouldn't be a problem. But less than a minute later she said 'I apologize, but we don't have any free spaces on the 19th either." A few minutes later, he called again. "This time I said my name was Eyal, and that I was interested in reserving some tickets for the Jewish organization I work for. 'Eyal? the 17th, 18th and 19th are free, which option would you like?' was the response."
"I ask myself whether the Arab feels he is discriminated against in all walks of life, is pushed to the sidelines politically, socially, culturally and feels, quite rightly, that he is being controlled instead of being included? No, my question is not [intended to be] provocative, but it is a harsh reality, and therefore it raises tough questions and presents complex and difficult problems," he wrote. He concluded: "Peace between two peoples, between two national movements, and the ability to heal the wounds both sides have incurred after all the wars are the heart's desire of every Arab. My dear students, I apologize in advance! I have no idea what your reactions will be but I really did try. During a whole year I tried to instill you with values. Acceptance of others is first and foremost, but the reality out there says otherwise."
The Ajial school in Jaffa has a middle school and high school for Arabic speaking students. "This is unacceptable, racist segregation," said the school's principal, Jalal Tuhi, on Tuesday night. "This is a special school in terms of its students and teachers. It has a mixed faculty. There are Jewish teachers, and Muslim, Christian and even Druze teachers...this is how we see the future of this country and this city. I asked the teacher not to remain silent about this because we are fed up of this segregation and this racist treatment, full stop. I want my students to know that they need to fight for their rights, and not give up."
In response, Superland's management told the Walla website on Tuesday: "we open our gates to all of Israel and all sectors of the public all year round. Everyone can buy a ticket through the website, or directly through the ticketing office...however, in June we hold closed events for the school year end. The schools dictate which schools will enter the event. There are reservations for closed days held by Jewish schools. There are reservations for closed days held by Arab schools."
Six months ago, a similar incident was reported at the Soho restaurant in Rishon Letzion. Arab citizens who tried to place an order at the restaurant recorded conversations with employees that showed that when the couple tried to order a table under an Arab name they were fobbed off with a variety of excuses. A short while later they succeeded in making the same booking using a Jewish name.
Im quite sure similar has gone on in Ireland if you ring a hotel to book a wedding party with certain familiar "traveller" names.
Quote from: haveaharp on May 31, 2013, 02:14:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2013, 02:02:07 PM
Martin Luther King on why his daughter wasn't allowed to go to a whites only
kids park in Atlanta in the 1960s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmIzmUfYB5Y
Segregation at Superland: Separate days for Arab and Jewish students at amusement park
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/segregation-at-superland-separate-days-for-arab-and-jewish-students-at-amusement-park.premium-1.526705#
Jaffa schoolteacher says he encountered policy of segregation at Israeli amusement park when attempting to book tickets for a class trip.
By Ilan Lior | May.30, 2013 | 2:21 AM | 24
A teacher at a Jaffa school accounted encountering a policy of segregation between Arab and Jewish students while attempting to book tickets for his class at the Superland amusement park in Rishon Letzion.
Khaled Shakra, who teaches seventh grade at the Ajial school in Jaffa, called Superland on Tuesday afternoon with the aim of booking tickets for his class to have a fun end- of-term day out. He says that a Superland representative offered him three options: the 17th, 18th and 19th June.
He asked to reserve 25 spaces for his students on the 18th, but was asked to provide the school's details before the reservation could be confirmed.
Shakra says that the moment the representative heard the name Ajial – and realized it was an Arab school – he was suddenly put on hold. Another representative was put on the line who told him that the dates he was interested in were not available.
A few minutes later he called and introduced himself under the name of Eyal, who was enquiring on behalf of a Jewish organization. The Superland representative offered him the same dates that only a moment before had been unavailable.
Following the reports, Justice Minister Tzipi Livni contacted Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein on Tuesday night with a request that he examine whether Superland has discriminated against Arab students. "If these allegations are proved to be correct, then this is a symptom of a sick democracy. Any incident such as this must be severely dealt with," Livni said.
On Wednesday, Shakra posted a letter on his Facebook page that described the sequence of events and his feelings on the matter. "I have experienced another sickening, racist, event and something within me is screaming to be released. Another stain, another wound has today been etched into the depths of my soul, and I am trying, unsuccessfully, to make sense of what has happened. How can I supress my anger and the deep bitterness I am currently feeling?"
He described the moment the Superland representative discovered the name of the school. "She suddenly fell silent and then asked me in confusion: 'what? What is that?' 'Ajial!A-j-i-a-l,' I answered confidentially. I didn't understand if the letter 'j' bothered her or the city of Jaffa bothered her, but I suddenly had the sober realization of what it was that was going through her head. I panicked and stopped abruptly. She responded "just a moment, sir!' And I suddenly heard the hold music. I can't put into words my feelings and thoughts at that exact moment, but for some reason the faces of my students popped into my head."
After waiting on the line for three minutes, Shakra was transferred to another representative who claimed that there were no free spots on June 17th or 18th, and offered that he come on the 19th. "I didn't hesitate, and told her that the 19th wouldn't be a problem. But less than a minute later she said 'I apologize, but we don't have any free spaces on the 19th either." A few minutes later, he called again. "This time I said my name was Eyal, and that I was interested in reserving some tickets for the Jewish organization I work for. 'Eyal? the 17th, 18th and 19th are free, which option would you like?' was the response."
"I ask myself whether the Arab feels he is discriminated against in all walks of life, is pushed to the sidelines politically, socially, culturally and feels, quite rightly, that he is being controlled instead of being included? No, my question is not [intended to be] provocative, but it is a harsh reality, and therefore it raises tough questions and presents complex and difficult problems," he wrote. He concluded: "Peace between two peoples, between two national movements, and the ability to heal the wounds both sides have incurred after all the wars are the heart's desire of every Arab. My dear students, I apologize in advance! I have no idea what your reactions will be but I really did try. During a whole year I tried to instill you with values. Acceptance of others is first and foremost, but the reality out there says otherwise."
The Ajial school in Jaffa has a middle school and high school for Arabic speaking students. "This is unacceptable, racist segregation," said the school's principal, Jalal Tuhi, on Tuesday night. "This is a special school in terms of its students and teachers. It has a mixed faculty. There are Jewish teachers, and Muslim, Christian and even Druze teachers...this is how we see the future of this country and this city. I asked the teacher not to remain silent about this because we are fed up of this segregation and this racist treatment, full stop. I want my students to know that they need to fight for their rights, and not give up."
In response, Superland's management told the Walla website on Tuesday: "we open our gates to all of Israel and all sectors of the public all year round. Everyone can buy a ticket through the website, or directly through the ticketing office...however, in June we hold closed events for the school year end. The schools dictate which schools will enter the event. There are reservations for closed days held by Jewish schools. There are reservations for closed days held by Arab schools."
Six months ago, a similar incident was reported at the Soho restaurant in Rishon Letzion. Arab citizens who tried to place an order at the restaurant recorded conversations with employees that showed that when the couple tried to order a table under an Arab name they were fobbed off with a variety of excuses. A short while later they succeeded in making the same booking using a Jewish name.
Im quite sure similar has gone on in Ireland if you ring a hotel to book a wedding party with certain familiar "traveller" names.
Sure that's grand then. Why were they moaning about apartheid in South Africa?
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2013, 02:17:46 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on May 31, 2013, 02:14:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2013, 02:02:07 PM
Martin Luther King on why his daughter wasn't allowed to go to a whites only
kids park in Atlanta in the 1960s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmIzmUfYB5Y
Segregation at Superland: Separate days for Arab and Jewish students at amusement park
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/segregation-at-superland-separate-days-for-arab-and-jewish-students-at-amusement-park.premium-1.526705#
Jaffa schoolteacher says he encountered policy of segregation at Israeli amusement park when attempting to book tickets for a class trip.
By Ilan Lior | May.30, 2013 | 2:21 AM | 24
A teacher at a Jaffa school accounted encountering a policy of segregation between Arab and Jewish students while attempting to book tickets for his class at the Superland amusement park in Rishon Letzion.
Khaled Shakra, who teaches seventh grade at the Ajial school in Jaffa, called Superland on Tuesday afternoon with the aim of booking tickets for his class to have a fun end- of-term day out. He says that a Superland representative offered him three options: the 17th, 18th and 19th June.
He asked to reserve 25 spaces for his students on the 18th, but was asked to provide the school's details before the reservation could be confirmed.
Shakra says that the moment the representative heard the name Ajial – and realized it was an Arab school – he was suddenly put on hold. Another representative was put on the line who told him that the dates he was interested in were not available.
A few minutes later he called and introduced himself under the name of Eyal, who was enquiring on behalf of a Jewish organization. The Superland representative offered him the same dates that only a moment before had been unavailable.
Following the reports, Justice Minister Tzipi Livni contacted Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein on Tuesday night with a request that he examine whether Superland has discriminated against Arab students. "If these allegations are proved to be correct, then this is a symptom of a sick democracy. Any incident such as this must be severely dealt with," Livni said.
On Wednesday, Shakra posted a letter on his Facebook page that described the sequence of events and his feelings on the matter. "I have experienced another sickening, racist, event and something within me is screaming to be released. Another stain, another wound has today been etched into the depths of my soul, and I am trying, unsuccessfully, to make sense of what has happened. How can I supress my anger and the deep bitterness I am currently feeling?"
He described the moment the Superland representative discovered the name of the school. "She suddenly fell silent and then asked me in confusion: 'what? What is that?' 'Ajial!A-j-i-a-l,' I answered confidentially. I didn't understand if the letter 'j' bothered her or the city of Jaffa bothered her, but I suddenly had the sober realization of what it was that was going through her head. I panicked and stopped abruptly. She responded "just a moment, sir!' And I suddenly heard the hold music. I can't put into words my feelings and thoughts at that exact moment, but for some reason the faces of my students popped into my head."
After waiting on the line for three minutes, Shakra was transferred to another representative who claimed that there were no free spots on June 17th or 18th, and offered that he come on the 19th. "I didn't hesitate, and told her that the 19th wouldn't be a problem. But less than a minute later she said 'I apologize, but we don't have any free spaces on the 19th either." A few minutes later, he called again. "This time I said my name was Eyal, and that I was interested in reserving some tickets for the Jewish organization I work for. 'Eyal? the 17th, 18th and 19th are free, which option would you like?' was the response."
"I ask myself whether the Arab feels he is discriminated against in all walks of life, is pushed to the sidelines politically, socially, culturally and feels, quite rightly, that he is being controlled instead of being included? No, my question is not [intended to be] provocative, but it is a harsh reality, and therefore it raises tough questions and presents complex and difficult problems," he wrote. He concluded: "Peace between two peoples, between two national movements, and the ability to heal the wounds both sides have incurred after all the wars are the heart's desire of every Arab. My dear students, I apologize in advance! I have no idea what your reactions will be but I really did try. During a whole year I tried to instill you with values. Acceptance of others is first and foremost, but the reality out there says otherwise."
The Ajial school in Jaffa has a middle school and high school for Arabic speaking students. "This is unacceptable, racist segregation," said the school's principal, Jalal Tuhi, on Tuesday night. "This is a special school in terms of its students and teachers. It has a mixed faculty. There are Jewish teachers, and Muslim, Christian and even Druze teachers...this is how we see the future of this country and this city. I asked the teacher not to remain silent about this because we are fed up of this segregation and this racist treatment, full stop. I want my students to know that they need to fight for their rights, and not give up."
In response, Superland's management told the Walla website on Tuesday: "we open our gates to all of Israel and all sectors of the public all year round. Everyone can buy a ticket through the website, or directly through the ticketing office...however, in June we hold closed events for the school year end. The schools dictate which schools will enter the event. There are reservations for closed days held by Jewish schools. There are reservations for closed days held by Arab schools."
Six months ago, a similar incident was reported at the Soho restaurant in Rishon Letzion. Arab citizens who tried to place an order at the restaurant recorded conversations with employees that showed that when the couple tried to order a table under an Arab name they were fobbed off with a variety of excuses. A short while later they succeeded in making the same booking using a Jewish name.
Im quite sure similar has gone on in Ireland if you ring a hotel to book a wedding party with certain familiar "traveller" names.
Sure that's grand then. Why were they moaning about apartheid in South Africa?
Its far from grand, i am just saying you dont have to travel 2000 miles to find the same attitude albeit in a more magnified state.
Tell us all again, exactly what humanitarian aid was found onboard Mavi Marmara?
There wasn't one ounce of aid on that ship. It's only cargo was Turkish/international activists intent on confronting Israeli forces. They wanted confrontation and then cried when they got it.
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on May 31, 2013, 05:12:22 PM
Tell us all again, exactly what humanitarian aid was found onboard Mavi Marmara?
There wasn't one ounce of aid on that ship. It's only cargo was Turkish/international activists intent on confronting Israeli forces. They wanted confrontation and then cried when they got it.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/report-israel-egypt-agree-gaza-flotilla-can-unload-cargo-at-el-arish-1.369840
There were wheelchairs. Trashed by Israel
Toys- trashed by Israel
Medicines- dumped by Israel
None of the aid made it to Gaza.
Mohamed al dura and the mavi marmara are Israel's biggest embarrassments of recent years other than being humiliated by the hezb in 06.
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2013, 07:05:19 PM
Mohamed al dura and the mavi marmara are Israel's biggest embarrassments of recent years other than being humiliated by the hezb in 06.
If anyone wants a lesson on how to post the maximum amount of bullshit in a single go, just read over this again.
I really am embarrasssed for you.
Really.
Quote from: muppet on March 23, 2013, 09:44:22 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 23, 2013, 09:21:14 PM
Quote from: Ball DeBeaver on March 23, 2013, 06:53:43 PM
If Israel has to make an apology to improve relations with Turkey, then so be it. Bigger picture.
Israel apologises for executing 9 muslims with shots to the back.of the head. What operayional errors?
Obama made a wee boy of Netanyahu.
It is about time he made an example of of him, a wee boy does no good, punch him in the mouth and tell him to get this situation sorted or all funding will cease and desist immediately.
Would never happen, as usual the Prez is a wordsmith and has the teeth of a gnat.
Obama has probably figured out there is no need to force the lobby. Sit back and watch nature take its course. Israel is fucked. I bought the German language Juedische zeitung today. Big feature in page 11 signed by 700 prominent Jews including Kahnemann asking the diaspora to get Israel to cop on and move away from the precipice. Too late. The settlers are too powerful.
Documentary on BBC Four "The Law in these parts".
Very interesting programme.
Quote from: seafoid on May 31, 2013, 08:32:51 PM
Obama has probably figured out there is no need to force the lobby. Sit back and watch nature take its course. Israel is fucked. I bought the German language Juedische zeitung today. Big feature in page 11 signed by 700 prominent Jews including Kahnemann asking the diaspora to get Israel to cop on and move away from the precipice. Too late. The settlers are too powerful.
Good to know Seafoid is keeping his eye on those "prominent Jews" .... ::)
What is a "prominent jew" anyway ? It's a very strange phrase to use.
An absolute farce as the spokeswoman for the US State Dept can't say anything in defence of US policy towards Israel and the peace process
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PyY5swkskxk
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/anti-arab-graffiti-sprayed-tires-slashed-in-suspected-price-tag-attack-1.530501
"Netanyahu also said that even if calling (Jewish) price tag activists part of a terror organization was correct from a domestic standpoint, it would be a diplomatic mistake that would damage Israel's international standing, increase its delegitimization and encourage international groups to compare price tag attacks to rocket fire or Hamas suicide attacks. "
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/top-businessmen-warn-netanyahu-stalled-peace-process-will-ruin-israel-s-economy
"Some of the country's top businessmen met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu last month to express concern that the stalled peace process with the Palestinians would ultimately harm and even endanger the Israeli economy.
The businessmen told Netanyahu they are worried by the signals they are getting from the international business community.
"We come from the field, and we're feeling the pressure," one said. "If we don't make progress toward a two-state solution, there will be negative developments for the Israeli economy. We're already noticing initial signs of this. The future of the Israeli economy will be in danger."
One businessman who attended the meeting told Haaretz that the lack of progress toward a two-state solution could send Israel down a slippery slope toward a binational state that would be either not Jewish or not democratic.
"The world will not accept this," he said. "Foreign investments will not come to such a state. No one will buy goods from such a state.""
This statement was issued in the past few hours from the family of Uğur Süleyman Söylemez:
"It is with deep regret and sorrow that we inform you of the martyrdom of our dear Brother Uğur Süleyman Söylemez, who died this evening (Friday 23rd of May 2014) after four years spent in a coma because of his injuries during the Israeli attack on the Mavi Marmara."
Along with the other 9 martyrs, may he rest in peace
http://eski.ihh.org.tr/mavi-marmara-gazisi-25-yildir-yogun-bakimda/en/
This is the story of Mavi Marmara victim Süleyman Söylemez and his family.
Uğur Süleyman Söylemez is a Mavi Marmara victim who has been comatose for the past two and a half years....
Söylemez was born in Ankara in 1963. A free-lancer by occupation, he took part in the flotilla that attempted to take humanitarian aid to Gaza in 2010. Soon after the attack on Mavi Marmara Söylemez was announced to be among the killed passengers, but it was later found out that he was gravely wounded by at least one bullet shot into his head. One of the flotilla passengers recalled the moment Söylemez was shot:
The incidents were unbelievable... Everything was shocking but I witnessed the most shocking incident on the lower deck. I was helping the wounded. A brother named Süleyman had been shot in the front of his head and fallen onto the floor on his back, fracturing the back of his skull. He was lying on his side; two people were supporting him. The doctors had warned that if he lay on his back, his lungs would be filled with blood, causing him to die immediately. While we were trying to keep him alive, several other passengers were cooling him down with fans they made from cardboard. Blood was continuously coming out of his mouth. I was wiping his mouth and holding his hands on one hand and replacing the bloody towels covering his wounds and trying to speak to him on the other hand. We used dozens of towels trying to stop his bleeding. Thank God he recovered from death. The Israelis carried him and the other wounded activists to the helicopters in brutal manner. Brother Süleyman is now with his family in Ankara but in coma. I will never forget him. Fatima Mohamadi (Lawyer/USA)
After he was flown to Turkey, Söylemez was transferred with two other gravely wounded activists to Ankara Atatürk Research Hospital and received intensive care for eight months. At the end of the eighth month, Söylemez was discharged from hospital to be cared for at home when no progress was registered about his condition during the eight-month long treatment. Söylemez is still comatose as of November 2012 and his condition remains critical.
A merchant by profession, Uğur Süleyman Söylemez is married to Tuğba Söylemez with three children named Ahmet (born 1988), Zeynep Kübra (1991), and Fatma (1997). Söylemez, who assisted people in need through various social charity events, is known as a trustable man who keeps his promise, and who is concerned about humanitarian issues. "He has always had special interest in Palestine," Mrs. Söylemez says as she describes her husband.
SÖYLEMEZ AS DESCRIBED BY HIS WIFE
Mrs. Söylemez, could you tell us about Mr. Söylemez's humanitarian efforts, his interest towards the disadvantaged and Palestine?
Uğur was very concerned about people being oppressed anywhere in the world, and loved helping them. He contributed to charities and aid agencies as much as he can. But his most sensitive point was Palestine.
Süleyman had a professional job when he decided to leave it all behind and ventured into high sea for Gaza. How could he make time to manage all these?
He would put himself in place of the aggrieved people and feel the pain they were feeling. He would not heed material gains. Not even his children. "I have to go and help them," he said and boarded the ship. He has always been like this. He would act before everyone else when someone was in need of help.
I think Süleyman boarded the ship in Antalya. They stayed at Kepez Sports Hall before boarding. There were people with different religion, ethnicity, language, and political view in Kepez. Did you not talk when he was in Kepez, what did he tell you about the atmosphere?
We were making frequent phone calls. He told me everything that transpired there. I think a British person converted to Islam while there. He told me about that and the atmosphere. "Some are reciting the Quran, some are listening to music... Everyone is acting in line with their faith. It is a very unique and different atmosphere. I wish you were here too but I will leave now," he said.
When did you talk the last?
He called the last when he boarded the ship. "We are leaving, we might not see each other again, give me your blessing," he said. It was our last talk.
Did you hear any news of your husband after the heinous attack? What can you say about the period after the attack?
We could not hear anything from my husband for about four days. After all the passengers and the wounded activists returned we learnt that a gravely-wounded man remained in Israel and he could not be brought to Turkey because his condition was critical. A photograph of the wounded man was sent on the order of the prime minister. It was my husband in the photograph.
How did you learn about the attack? What happened afterwards?
My son and I were regularly following the journey of the flotilla on IHH webpage. Between 10 and 11 at night we learnt that there were blackouts on the ship. My son told me "Mum, let's go to the Israeli embassy." I told him "We had better wait until morning." When we got up for the morning prayers, we quickly checked out the webpage and learnt that the ship had been attacked and there were martyrs and critically wounded passengers. No sooner had we completed morning prayers than we rushed to the Israeli embassy. There were only two persons in front of the embassy but people started to gather as time passed. First they said five were killed but later reports put the number at 20. My son and I knew Uğur was among the killed, because my husband was a very brave man who disregarded danger. He was a very different person... He was kind of a person who would sacrifice his life and he did it indeed...
You flew to Israel in an ambulance aircraft to get your husband. Did you meet Israeli authorities? What happened there?
We were met by embassy staff and went to the hospital where Uğur was with Turkish doctors who accompanied us. "We will see Mr. Söylemez first and get information about his condition. Then we will let you see him," the doctors said. I went inside with my son to see my husband. They were saying Uğur's condition was critical and he could be lost any time, so it was very risky to take him to Turkey. I was very troubled that my husband was in the hands of Israelis. I discussed the situation with my son and we decided to bring my husband to Turkey no matter what. They made us sign some documents for the transfer and told us they would not take any responsibility. In response I said "Did you accept any liability when you shot him that you do not now?"
Supposing that Mr. Söylemez recovered from the coma tomorrow morning, did you ever think, what would be the first thing he did?
We sometimes talk about it and I am sure he would want to go to Palestine again if he came out of coma. He would do it without hesitation.
Mrs. Söylemez, is there anything you would like to add?
The events we went through made us more mature. We were not aware of many things before. You understand the life in Palestine better when you experience it personally. You understand families of martyrs and the wounded there better. The families of the activists killed and wounded on board Mavi Marmara should not be forgotten. All Muslims should support them in their hearts.
Quote from: give her dixie on May 23, 2014, 11:44:52 PM
This statement was issued in the past few hours from the family of Uğur Süleyman Söylemez:
"It is with deep regret and sorrow that we inform you of the martyrdom of our dear Brother Uğur Süleyman Söylemez, who died this evening (Friday 23rd of May 2014) after four years spent in a coma because of his injuries during the Israeli attack on the Mavi Marmara."
Along with the other 9 martyrs, may he rest in peace
Could you explain what you meant by "martyrs" ? This was a completely secular, non-sectarian mission right ?
Quote We were making frequent phone calls. He told me everything that transpired there. I think a British person converted to Islam while there. He told me about that and the atmosphere. "Some are reciting the Quran, some are listening to music... Everyone is acting in line with their faith. It is a very unique and different atmosphere. I wish you were here too but I will leave now," he said.
This is strange. Why would a completely secular, non-sectarian, non anti-Semitic mission involve such a charged religious atmosphere.
Perhaps you can explain Give-her-Dixie. You were actually there. I assume you saw none of this...?
Mike, a man just died a few hours ago after 4 years in a coma
Please show a little respect.
No. f**k off.I won't play your game. I won't cower to your demands for "respect". In your eyes he was a "Martyr". However, for all I know he could be an islamofascist...who knows ? your post indicates there was a strong religious aspect to this case. You will have to make the case. There are no free rides anymore on Gaaboard. Convince us.
Now, answer the question I asked you. What did you mean by "Martyrs" ? .and while you are at it, I am asking you , once again, to explain your connection with www.barnesreview.org
This won't go away. Address it or you position will be fatally, permanently, compromised. I won't back down.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 01:42:54 AM
No. f**k off.I won't play your game. I won't cower to your demands for "respect". In your eyes he was a "Martyr". However, for all I know he could be an islamofascist...who knows ? your post indicates there was a strong religious aspect to this case. You will have to make the case. There are no free rides anymore on Gaaboard. Convince us.
Now, answer the question I asked you. What did you mean by "Martyrs" ? .and while you are at it, I am asking you , once again, to explain your connection with www.barnesreview.org
This won't go away. Address it or you position will be fatally, permanently, compromised. I won't back down.
I'm sick of all this shite between you, but your reply there now was pure cuntish. Go away and mid yourself.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 24, 2014, 01:42:54 AM
No. f**k off.I won't play your game. I won't cower to your demands for "respect". In your eyes he was a "Martyr". However, for all I know he could be an islamofascist...who knows ? your post indicates there was a strong religious aspect to this case. You will have to make the case. There are no free rides anymore on Gaaboard. Convince us.
Now, answer the question I asked you. What did you mean by "Martyrs" ? .and while you are at it, I am asking you , once again, to explain your connection with www.barnesreview.org
This won't go away. Address it or you position will be fatally, permanently, compromised. I won't back down.
Dhera you will of course. You always do . You can't keep up the vitriol.
It's all a game. It's been much more frequent since Kerry started their decline, I've noticed.
Turkey court issues arrest warrants to Israeli ex-generals over Gaza flotilla raid
Istanbul's Seventh High Criminal Court tries four senior Israeli in absentia; under warrant, the Israelis can be arrested if they enter Turkey or any country with extradition treaty.
By Barak Ravid | May 26, 2014 | 5:40 PM
Istanbul's Seventh High Criminal Court released arrest warrants Monday to four senior Israeli officers over their role in the 2010 raid of a Turkish-flagged Gaza-bound aid flotilla.
The court also asked Interpol to release international arrest warrants against the four, who include former Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi, former Navy Chief Eliezer Marom, former Military Intelligence Chief Amos Yadlin and former Naval Intelligence chief Avishai Levy.
The court's ruling claimed that the warrants were necessary for the legal proceedings because the defendants failed to appear at hearings and hadn't responded to summons sent by the Turkish Ministry of Justice. Turkey's Foreign Ministry said in response that its legal advisors would study the ruling.
If any of the four former officers enter Turkey, they will be arrested. Likewise, the Turkish government can request the extradition of any of the officials should they enter a country with an extradition agreement.
Should Interpol respond to the Turkish request and publicize the international arrest warrants, the officers will be under threat of arrest in all countries that are Interpol members. Interpol is under no obligation to respond.
The Turkish prosecutors, representing 33 relatives of the nine victims of the deadly raid on the Mavi Marmara, have requested a life sentence from each of the Israeli officers who were tried in absentia.
The complaint in question was submitted in May 2012, and the first hearing was held in November of that year. The legal proceedings have been taking place over the last year and a half on the backdrop of reconciliation contacts between Israel and Turkey.
Part of the reconciliation agreement includes a Turkish commitment to pass a law in parliament that nullifies all legal complaints against Israeli officers and soldiers involved in the Gaza flotilla operation.
Although Israel and Turkey have already composed a draft agreement, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has not signed on nor is he bringing it to a vote in the political-security cabinet.
Within the framework of the draft agreement, Israel agreed to pay $20 million in compensation to the families of the victims; in exchange, the Turkish government would drop all legal claims.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.592911
Quote from: give her dixie on May 26, 2014, 08:02:16 PM
Turkey court issues arrest warrants to Israeli ex-generals over Gaza flotilla raid
Istanbul's Seventh High Criminal Court tries four senior Israeli in absentia; under warrant, the Israelis can be arrested if they enter Turkey or any country with extradition treaty.
By Barak Ravid | May 26, 2014 | 5:40 PM
Istanbul's Seventh High Criminal Court released arrest warrants Monday to four senior Israeli officers over their role in the 2010 raid of a Turkish-flagged Gaza-bound aid flotilla.
The court also asked Interpol to release international arrest warrants against the four, who include former Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi, former Navy Chief Eliezer Marom, former Military Intelligence Chief Amos Yadlin and former Naval Intelligence chief Avishai Levy.
The court's ruling claimed that the warrants were necessary for the legal proceedings because the defendants failed to appear at hearings and hadn't responded to summons sent by the Turkish Ministry of Justice. Turkey's Foreign Ministry said in response that its legal advisors would study the ruling.
If any of the four former officers enter Turkey, they will be arrested. Likewise, the Turkish government can request the extradition of any of the officials should they enter a country with an extradition agreement.
Should Interpol respond to the Turkish request and publicize the international arrest warrants, the officers will be under threat of arrest in all countries that are Interpol members. Interpol is under no obligation to respond.
The Turkish prosecutors, representing 33 relatives of the nine victims of the deadly raid on the Mavi Marmara, have requested a life sentence from each of the Israeli officers who were tried in absentia.
The complaint in question was submitted in May 2012, and the first hearing was held in November of that year. The legal proceedings have been taking place over the last year and a half on the backdrop of reconciliation contacts between Israel and Turkey.
Part of the reconciliation agreement includes a Turkish commitment to pass a law in parliament that nullifies all legal complaints against Israeli officers and soldiers involved in the Gaza flotilla operation.
Although Israel and Turkey have already composed a draft agreement, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has not signed on nor is he bringing it to a vote in the political-security cabinet.
Within the framework of the draft agreement, Israel agreed to pay $20 million in compensation to the families of the victims; in exchange, the Turkish government would drop all legal claims.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.592911
I think Turkey should stop denying genocide against the Armenian people and make reparation i.e
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_denial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_denial)
Maybe then they will earn the right to comment on other peoples conflicts.
The continuing inspiration of the Mavi Marmara
May 2014 Saturday 31st
Four years ago today the courageous actions of dedicated internationalists highlighted the need to oppose Israel's oppression of Gaza. Palestine Solidarity Campaign director Sarah Colborne reports
Four years ago, on May 31 2010, the ship I was sailing in, the Mavi Marmara, came under sustained and lethal attack by Israeli commandos while in international waters.
The Mavi Marmara, along with six other ships, was sailing to break the siege on Gaza with humanitarian aid for the 1.6 million Palestinians living trapped under a blockade.
Over 700 people from 40 different countries were on board the flotilla.
Nine passengers were killed that day and over 50 injured. A 10th victim, Ugur Suleyman Soylemez, died only days ago on May 24 2014, after being in a coma since the attack.
Four years on, the Mavi Marmara continues to make waves.
On Monday May 27 arrest warrants were issued by an Istanbul court for four Israeli commanders in relation to the attack on the ship.
The court also requested an Interpol Red Notice for the arrest of the four — former Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) chief of general staff General Rau Gavriel Ashkenazi, Naval Forces commander Eliezer Alfred Maron, chief of Israeli intelligence Amos Yadlin and Air Forces intelligence director Avishay Levi.
The International Criminal Court has also opened a preliminary investigation into the attack.
This is a significant development with the defendants already feeling the long arm of the law.
Amos Yadlin is reported to have said in a text message to Reuters: "I won't be visiting Turkey, just like I won't be visiting Syria, Iran or North Korea."
His attempt to ridicule the court's decision is unwise, given that he is already subject to an arrest warrant in one country and a request lodged with Interpol.
With hundreds of witnesses to Israel's military assault, there is a staggeringly large amount of evidence of the crimes committed on the Mavi Marmara.
A UN Human Rights Council fact-finding mission investigated the attack shortly afterwards and spoke to many of the survivors.
It found that the attack was "clearly unlawful" and described the conduct of the Israeli military as "not only disproportionate to the occasion but demonstrated levels of totally unnecessary and incredible violence."
The mission's 56-page report detailed the events leading up to the interception of each of the six ships that made up the flotilla as well as a seventh ship intercepted on June 6, the deaths of nine passengers and wounding of many others and the detention of passengers in Israel and their subsequent deportation.
The report's authors said that the attack "betrayed an unacceptable level of brutality.
"Such conduct cannot be justified or condoned on security or any other grounds. It constituted grave violations of human rights law and international humanitarian law."
The families of those killed on the Mavi Marmara have repeatedly stated that compensation is not sufficient, and that those responsible must be brought to justice.
They are also insistent that the siege on Gaza be lifted.
After all, this is why their relatives sailed four years ago, alongside hundreds of others from around the word — to focus the world's attention on the humanitarian crisis created by Israel's blockade on Gaza.
We were bringing with us construction materials to repair some of the damage caused by Israel's bombings on Gaza. Also medicines, blankets, electrical wheelchairs and mobility scooters and materials to build children's playgrounds.
Four years on, the siege continues to plague Palestinian lives in Gaza.
Tunnels that had been used to partially alleviate the siege by smuggling in essential goods through the border with Egypt have been destroyed.
The UN reported that the volume of goods entering Gaza last month was the lowest since 2011, causing shortages of essential items including dairy products and fruits.
Fuel reserves are dangerously low, with only about 40 per cent of the amount required entering Gaza.
Families are struggling to cope with power shortages and blackouts of up to 12-16 hours a day. Two-thirds of Gaza's population currently receives clean water only once every three to four days.
Water contamination in Gaza stands at 90 per cent and essential medicines are unavailable.
Aid agencies are repeatedly warning that life will become impossible for Palestinians in Gaza if the infrastructure is not repaired, the aquifer is not replenished and the siege not lifted.
World Health Organisation (WHO) statistics show that 30 per cent of medicines and 50 per cent of medical disposables are out of stock at the Central Drug Store in Gaza.
Increasing numbers of patients are being referred for treatment abroad — due to the lack of essential equipment and supplies in Gaza — but many of these patients are refused permits to leave Gaza.
Amna al-Jazzar, a six-month-old baby, became yet another victim of the siege when she died on April 28 while her family waited for Israeli approval of her treatment in Israel.
The family submitted a total of four applications between February and April for a permit to cross Erez to meet the hospital appointments. Three of those applications were never replied to and one was denied.
Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states that "No persons may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed." Yet 1.7 million Palestinians are being collectively punished, and despite international condemnation, Israel has not been forced to lift the blockade.
This is why, four years ago, we set sail to Gaza. And this is why we are continuing to work to break the siege.
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-58c8-The-continuing-inspiration-of-the-Mavi-Marmara#.U4moE3aTIto
This is the latest in the ongoing case against Israel over the attacks
Spain 'issues arrest warrant' for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over 2010 Gaza flotilla attack
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and seven other former and current government officials are at risk of arrest if they set foot in Spain, after a Spanish judge effectively issued an arrest warrant for the group, it has been reported.
According to the Latin American Herald Tribune, Spanish national court judge Jose de la Mata ordered the police and civil guard to notify him if Mr Netanyahu and the six other individuals enter the country, as their actions could see a case against them regarding the Freedom Flotilla attack of 2010 reopened.
The other men named in the issue are former defence minister Ehud Barak, former foreign minister Avigdor Leiberman, former minister of strategic affairs Moshe Yaalon, former interior minister Eli Yishai, minister without portfolio Benny Begin and vice admiral maron Eliezer, who was in charge of the operation.
The case – which was put on hold by Judge de la Mata last year – was brought against the men following an attack by Israeli security forces against the Freedom Flotilla aid ships in 2010, which was trying to reach Gaza.
It concerns the Mavi Marmara ship, the main civilian vessel in a fleet of six that were attempting to break an Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip. The six ships were carrying around 500 passengers, humanitarian aid and construction materials. The Israeli Defence Force stormed the ship in a raid that left nine human rights activists dead. A tenth activist died later that month due to wounds sustained in the raid.
The Israeli Prime Minister and other officials now face charges in the case, should it be reopened.
An Israeli foreign ministry spokesperson Emmanuel Nachshon told the Jerusalem Post: "We consider it to be a provocation. We are working with the Spanish authorities to get it cancelled. We hope it will be over soon."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/spain-issues-arrest-warrant-for-israeli-prime-minister-benjamin-netanyahu-over-2010-gaza-flotilla-a6736436.html
Quote from: give her dixie on November 16, 2015, 07:45:59 PM
This is the latest in the ongoing case against Israel over the attacks
Spain 'issues arrest warrant' for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over 2010 Gaza flotilla attack
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and seven other former and current government officials are at risk of arrest if they set foot in Spain, after a Spanish judge effectively issued an arrest warrant for the group, it has been reported.
According to the Latin American Herald Tribune, Spanish national court judge Jose de la Mata ordered the police and civil guard to notify him if Mr Netanyahu and the six other individuals enter the country, as their actions could see a case against them regarding the Freedom Flotilla attack of 2010 reopened.
The other men named in the issue are former defence minister Ehud Barak, former foreign minister Avigdor Leiberman, former minister of strategic affairs Moshe Yaalon, former interior minister Eli Yishai, minister without portfolio Benny Begin and vice admiral maron Eliezer, who was in charge of the operation.
The case – which was put on hold by Judge de la Mata last year – was brought against the men following an attack by Israeli security forces against the Freedom Flotilla aid ships in 2010, which was trying to reach Gaza.
It concerns the Mavi Marmara ship, the main civilian vessel in a fleet of six that were attempting to break an Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip. The six ships were carrying around 500 passengers, humanitarian aid and construction materials. The Israeli Defence Force stormed the ship in a raid that left nine human rights activists dead. A tenth activist died later that month due to wounds sustained in the raid.
The Israeli Prime Minister and other officials now face charges in the case, should it be reopened.
An Israeli foreign ministry spokesperson Emmanuel Nachshon told the Jerusalem Post: "We consider it to be a provocation. We are working with the Spanish authorities to get it cancelled. We hope it will be over soon."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/spain-issues-arrest-warrant-for-israeli-prime-minister-benjamin-netanyahu-over-2010-gaza-flotilla-a6736436.html
The bit in bold is code for we will threaten Spain and try to overturn the rule of law in that country.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 16, 2015, 10:58:48 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on November 16, 2015, 07:45:59 PM
This is the latest in the ongoing case against Israel over the attacks
Spain 'issues arrest warrant' for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over 2010 Gaza flotilla attack
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and seven other former and current government officials are at risk of arrest if they set foot in Spain, after a Spanish judge effectively issued an arrest warrant for the group, it has been reported.
According to the Latin American Herald Tribune, Spanish national court judge Jose de la Mata ordered the police and civil guard to notify him if Mr Netanyahu and the six other individuals enter the country, as their actions could see a case against them regarding the Freedom Flotilla attack of 2010 reopened.
The other men named in the issue are former defence minister Ehud Barak, former foreign minister Avigdor Leiberman, former minister of strategic affairs Moshe Yaalon, former interior minister Eli Yishai, minister without portfolio Benny Begin and vice admiral maron Eliezer, who was in charge of the operation.
The case – which was put on hold by Judge de la Mata last year – was brought against the men following an attack by Israeli security forces against the Freedom Flotilla aid ships in 2010, which was trying to reach Gaza.
It concerns the Mavi Marmara ship, the main civilian vessel in a fleet of six that were attempting to break an Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip. The six ships were carrying around 500 passengers, humanitarian aid and construction materials. The Israeli Defence Force stormed the ship in a raid that left nine human rights activists dead. A tenth activist died later that month due to wounds sustained in the raid.
The Israeli Prime Minister and other officials now face charges in the case, should it be reopened.
An Israeli foreign ministry spokesperson Emmanuel Nachshon told the Jerusalem Post: "We consider it to be a provocation. We are working with the Spanish authorities to get it cancelled. We hope it will be over soon."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/spain-issues-arrest-warrant-for-israeli-prime-minister-benjamin-netanyahu-over-2010-gaza-flotilla-a6736436.html
The bit in bold is code for we will threaten Spain and try to overturn the rule of law in that country.
It's not too long ago Netanyahu was issuing threats to France.....
http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-netanyahu-warns-of-grave-mistake-if-france-recognises-palestine-2014-11?IR=T
Time that can't was before a War Crimes Tribunal.
Never happen of course as he's on the "right" (US, rich big business) side.
South Africa issues arrest warrants against 4 Israeli commanders
Warrants issued on grounds of commanders' involvement in Mavi Marmara incident in 2010, when 10 Turkish nationals were killed when the IDF raided the Gaza-bound flotilla.
South African police issued arrest warrants against four former Israeli military commanders over their role in the Mavi Marmara raid in 2010, when 10 Turkish nationals were killed aboard the Gaza-bound flotilla, the African News Agency reported Tuesday.
The alert arrest notice was circulated to the South Africa Border Control authorities on September 3 and confirmed on Tuesday by the SA Directorate of the Priority Crimes Investigation Unit (DCPI).
The DCPI said that the four - former IDF chief Gabi Ashkenazi, former Navy commander Eli Marom, former head of Military Intelligence Amos Yadlin and former head of Air Force Intelligence Avishay Levy - would be arrested if they entered South Africa.
Furthermore, Interpol South Africa forwarded information regarding the arrest warrants to Interpol Turkey, opening the way for the commanders to be extradited to South Africa for prosecution should they enter Turkey.
The decision in South Africa came at the conclusion of a four-year legal case involving Ms. Gadija Davids, a South African journalist who had been on board the Mavi Marmara during the raid.
An Istanbul court had previously issued arrest warrants for the four in 2014. Spain also issued arrest warrants over the Mavi Marmara incident last Sunday, targeting Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and six other Israeli politicians, including Eli Yishai, Avigdor Lieberman and Ehud Barak.
In response to news of the Spanish arrest warrants on Sunday, Foreign Ministry spokesman Emmanuel Nahshon said: "This is an issue that has been subject to legal proceedings for several years now.
"The State of Israel and the embassy in Madrid have been in communication with legal authorities in Spain and handling the issue. We hope that the case will be closed soon, as it should have been a long time ago."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4727004,00.html
Israel and Turkey end rift over Gaza flotilla killings
Israel and Turkey have normalised relations, ending a six-year rift over the killing by Israeli troops of 10 Turkish activists on a Gaza-bound ship.
Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said a deal reached on Sunday would see Israel pay $20m (£15m) in compensation.
It will also allow Turkey to send aid to Gaza and carry out infrastructure projects in the Palestinian territory.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the agreement would help bring "stability" to the Middle East.
Turkey was once Israel's closest ally in the region, and the two countries share many strategic interests.
Gaza 'lifeline'
The Turkish and Israeli prime ministers announced the deal to restore diplomatic ties at simultaneous news conferences in Ankara and Rome.
Mr Yildirim said the two countries would appoint ambassadors "as soon as possible" after the agreement is signed on Tuesday.
A "lifeline to Palestinians" would be provided, he added, with the first ship loaded with 10,000 tonnes of aid due to leave for the Israeli port of Ashdod on Friday.
The reconciliation deal between Israel and Turkey will see a return to normal diplomatic relations, but ties are unlikely to have the warmth that they did in the past.
It is Turkey's growing diplomatic problems - strategic tensions with Russia; difficulties with Europe due to the growing authoritarianism of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan; and above all the failure of Turkey's Syria policy (which has also soured ties with Washington) - that have prompted this move.
Turkey gains a privileged role in Gaza's economic development and a lessening of its isolation in a deeply troubled region.
Israel sees an end to its practical difficulties with Turkey and gets assurances about future Hamas activity on Turkish soil.
There could also be important economic benefits to both countries in terms of the energy sector and tourism.
Turkey will also be allowed to invest in a series of development projects in Gaza, including residential buildings, a hospital, a power station and a desalination plant for drinking water.
In return, Turkey agreed to pass legislation protecting Israeli troops from legal claims over the Mavi Marmara incident, and to prevent any military action or fundraising by Hamas operatives based there.
"The total embargo imposed on Palestine and on the Gaza region in particular, is to being lifted to a great extent through Turkey's leadership," Mr Yildirim asserted.
But Mr Netanyahu said Israel's "defensive maritime blockade" of Gaza, which is dominated by the militant Islamist movement Hamas, would remain in place.
"This is a supreme security interest of ours. I was not willing to compromise it. This interest is essential to prevent the force build-up by Hamas and it remains as has been and is," he added.
Israel maintains its blockade of Gaza to try to prevent weapons or materials reaching Palestinian militants, with whom it fought a devastating war in 2014, while allowing humanitarian aid into the territory.
Palestinians say the policy is tantamount to collective punishment, and UN and aid officials have warned of deteriorating conditions in Gaza.
Ten pro-Palestinian Turkish activists, one of them a dual American citizen, were killed and dozens wounded as clashes broke out after the commandos boarded the ship, descending on ropes from helicopters.
The two sides had blamed each other for the violence. The activists said the commandos started shooting as soon as they hit the deck. Israel said the commandos opened fire only after being attacked with clubs, knives and a gun which was taken from them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36639834
A UN inquiry was unable to determine at exactly which point the commandos used live rounds.
Talks on normalising ties started after Mr Netanyahu telephoned Mr Erdogan, then Turkish prime minister, in 2013 to make it clear that the results of the Mavi Marmara incident were "unintentional" and to "express regret" over the loss of life.
Statement from the Turkish charity IHH
Mavi Marmara Court Case to Continue
We Hope the Parliament doesn't Forgive Israeli Murderers
Today following the ongoing diplomatic negotiations Israel and Turkey have officially announced normalized relations, which have been strained following the attack on Mavi Marmara on 31st May 2010. Netanyahu's announcement on behalf of Israel came around the same time Turkey issued a statement about it. In the press conference, Netanyahu has declared in a victorious attitude that "It is a tremendous economic success for Israel. The blockade on Gaza by no means is lifted nor shall it ever be lifted. Turkey has agreed to our terms." He has highlighted that Israel agreed not to pay compensation but to make a donation of 20 million dollars provided that the cases are withdrawn; that this move will prevent the case from establishing a precedent for other crimes of Israeli soldiers; that the agreement is a significant gain. Unfortunately the rapprochement agreement which is announced by Turkey means that blockade on Gaza is recognized by Turkey. Indeed Gaza is free according to the agreement signed in 2005 and is entitled to the right to travel and do business as it pleases without relying on anybody. The embargo means that Israel is recognized as a superior authority which has the final say on what and how much supplies can enter Gaza and this is the subject matter of the agreement announced.
The rapprochement agreement may be regarded as the easing of the blockade although many provisions are quite ambiguous. However it only constitutes a partial permission granted to Turkey. What kind of supplies and how much supplies will Israel allow Turkey to bring in to Gaza stands as a big question mark. Indeed supply entry and exit from Gaza should be free like in every other country. The issue is not entry of humanitarian relief supplies into Gaza but making sure that Gaza has its freedom of movement and transactions so that it does not have to rely on external aid. Palestine is deprived of this freedom and doomed to rely on external aid only while international law grants it to every land and government. It is simply unacceptable. Therefore, as IHH we would like to announce that we will keep up our efforts in all fronts including legal and physical arenas for the removal of the illegal and unjustifiable blockade on Gaza.
Meanwhile it is reported that the agreement has a provision stipulating that a donation will be made to the families of the victims provided that the court cases are withdrawn. These lawsuits are not filed only by victims' families and Turkish citizens but international victims of the Mavi Marmara attack from 37 different countries. There is no withdrawal of the cases. The victims' families remain adamant about refusing to give up their cause or withdraw their case until and unless the blockade is removed.
Israel's arrogant attitude as if to say "I kill people and pay in cash whatever is the cost" is unacceptable. Who is going to protect Turkish citizens from Israel in international waters? Turkish government has acted this way and came to an agreement with the Israeli party. Just like what we have said since the beginning, as an international NGO we do not condone an agreement with Israel. We were never involved in the agreement nor did we partake as a party. To this day we have voiced our warnings and suggestions. From then onwards we will keep standing with Palestinian people through our court cases, our actions to break the blockade, our protests and various aids. The Mavi Marmara court cases are to continue. We hope that the parliament does not endorse this agreement which means that Israeli murderers are exonerated by Turkey. Mavi Marmara stood as a hope in the Islamic world and for the oppressed people of the world. It is our duty to keep this hope which stands for the common consciousness of humanity alive. We would like to rest our case with a Palestinian saying "Whoever covers up with Israel will remain naked."
Turkish ship carrying aid for Gaza arrives at Ashdod
A Turkish ship carrying aid for Gaza has arrived in Israel, a week after Turkey and Israel agreed to restore ties that soured over a deadly raid on an aid flotilla in 2010.
The Panama-flagged Lady Leyla container vessel docked at Ashdod port on Sunday afternoon after departing on Friday.
Its contents were to be unloaded, inspected and sent to the Gaza Strip which is under an Israeli blockade and has been hit by three wars with Israel since 2008.
The ship was carrying 11,000 tonnes of supplies including food packages, flour, rice, sugar and toys, the Turkish state-run Anadolu news agency reported. The aid is expected to reach Gaza in a few days.
OPINION: What the Israeli-Turkish reconciliation says about Gaza
Turkey had initially pushed for a lifting of Israel's blockade on Gaza as part of the negotiations to normalise ties, but Israel rejected this.
A compromise was eventually reached allowing Turkey to send aid through Ashdod rather than directly to the Palestinian enclave.
Israel says the blockade is necessary to prevent Hamas, the Palestinian group that rules Gaza, from receiving materials that could be used for military purposes. But United Nations officials have called for it to be lifted, citing deteriorating conditions in the territory.
UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, who visited Gaza on Tuesday, called the blockade "collective punishment".
Turkey's ruling Justice and Development Party has friendly ties with Hamas, and President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has been a vocal supporter of the Palestinian cause.
Turkey and Israel were formerly close regional allies, but fell out in 2010 when Israeli commandos killed 10 Turkish activists in a raid on an aid flotilla seeking to break the blockade on Gaza.
READ MORE: Will the Turkey-Israel deal end Gaza's siege?
Under a reconciliation deal struck last week, Israel will pay $20m in compensation to the families of those killed.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has promoted the economic benefits of restoring ties, with talk of building a pipeline to Turkey to export natural gas, and the need to find allies in the turbulent Middle East.
"This small amount of aid coming from Turkey is highly appreciated, but the most important thing for Gazans is freedom, hope and a new process to end the suffering of two million Palestinians," Amjad al-Shawa, the director of the Palestinian Non-Governmental Network, told Al Jazeera from Gaza City.
"We expect Turkey to pressure Israel - through its new restored relations - to respect international humanitarian law and to lift this inhumane blockade."
Families of four Israeli soldiers declared killed or missing in Gaza protested that the Turkish-Israeli deal did not mandate their loved ones be returned to Israel.
Several relatives and supporters of the soldiers' families protested against the deal outside Ashdod port on Sunday.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/turkish-ship-carrying-aid-gaza-arrives-ashdod-160703152844113.html
53% of the people living in Greater Israel are Palestinian. The Palestinian population has doubled since 1995.
Pauperisation was really stupid.
All that wasted effort from Israel. Won't stop the collapse of Zionism
ICC prosecutor affirms decision not to formally investigate Mavi Marmara killings
December 1, 2017
The International Criminal Court (ICC) Prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda, has reaffirmed a previous decision to close the preliminary examination into the Israeli military's fatal attack on the Gaza-bound Mavi Marmara in May 2010.
In a statement released this week by the ICC, Bensouda said that "following a thorough and considered reassessment of all relevant materials", including new information, she had "ultimately decided to reaffirm my previous decision of 6 November 2014".
The decision not to pursue a formal investigation into allegations of war crimes is now "final".
According to the statement from the Office of the Prosecutor, Bensouda's conclusion remains that while "there is a reasonable basis to believe that war crimes were committed by some members of the Israel Defence Forces during and after the boarding of the Mavi Marmara...no potential case arising from this situation can, legally speaking, be considered of 'sufficient gravity' under the Rome Statute to be admissible before this Court, therefore barring the opening of an investigation".
The statement notes that the Prosecutor conducted "a thorough reconsideration of all information available at the time of the November 2014 determination", as well as "a de novo examination of all submissions and information made available to my Office in the period between 2015 and 2017 by representatives of the Union of the Comoros and participating victims".
In total, her office "subjected to renewed analysis more than 5,000 pages of documents, including the personal accounts of more than 300 passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara".
In closing, Bensouda noted that this "final decision reflects an independent and impartial legal assessment of the applicable criteria under the Rome Statute", adding: "I want to be clear, however, that I fully recognise the impact of the alleged crimes on the victims and their families and my conclusion does not excuse any crimes which may have been perpetrated in connection with the Mavi Marmara incident".
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20171201-icc-prosecutor-affirms-decision-not-to-formally-investigate-mavi-marmara-killings/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/06/trump-
A cacophony of angry and despairing voices across the Middle East and the world have urged Donald Trump not to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel at a planned speech on Wednesday, warning him that any such announcement would destroy the peace process, strengthen the extremists and weaken the US's standing in the world.
The pope issued an unusually heartfelt plea to the president to respect the status quo on the city, and to conform with UN resolutions. He told thousands of people at his general audience: "I cannot keep quiet about my deep worry about the situation that has been created in the last few days."
Pope Francis said he hoped "wisdom and prudence prevail, in order to avoid adding new elements of tension to a global panorama that is already convulsed and marked by so many cruel conflicts".
The spokesman for the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, said the US was "plunging the region and the world into a fire with no end in sight". He added that the Organisation for Islamic Co-operation would meet in Istanbul on 13 December in a special session to co-ordinate a response.
Donald Trump's Jerusalem statement is an act of diplomatic arson | Jonathan Freedland
Read more
The Turkish foreign minister, Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, disclosed he had told the US secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, that Washington was making a grave mistake, and the whole world was against the decision. Turkey has suggested it might cut diplomatic ties with Israel if the plan goes ahead.
British prime minister Theresa May said on Wednesday that she would call Trump about his proposed announcement.
"The status of Jerusalem should be determined as a negotiated settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians and Jerusalem should be a shared capital," she said.
Both Germany and France, fierce critics of the decision, updated travel advice to their citizens, warning of possible clashes in Israel and the occupied territories.
Trump is expected to declare formal recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel later on Wednesday, breaking with years of precedent and potentially leading to unpredictable consequences for the Middle East.
Palestinian women protest in Gaza City on Wednesday ahead of Donald Trump's expected declaration recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital Photograph: APAImages/REX/Shutterstock
Trump's planned announcement was welcomed by Jewish groups, including the British board of deputies, which described the outcry as bizarre. The Israeli government remained silent, awaiting details of the announcement.
The response across the wider Middle East ranging from Syria to Yemen has been universally hostile, including from the US's steadfast ally Saudi Arabia, which believes the US move damages Riyadh's continuing efforts to negotiate a peace deal, starting with a unification of the Palestinian leadership.
At the request of Jordan and the Palestinians, an emergency meeting of Arab foreign ministers will be held on Saturday. The Arab League warned any recognition of Jerusalem would be a blatant attack on the Arab nation.
Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said on Wednesday that US plans to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital was a move made "out of despair and debility" because "their hands are tied and they can't achieve their goals".
Khamenei, who is stridently anti-Israel, told government officials: "Victory belongs to Islamic Ummah. Palestine will be free, the Palestinian nation will achieve victory."
The ayatollah has previously said that Israel "will not see the next 25 years".
In London, the Jewish Board of Deputies president, Jonathan Arkush, welcomed Trump's decision, saying it was bizarre that it should be seen as remarkable.
"Jerusalem has been the spiritual centre of Jewish life for 3,000 years, since the time of King David," he said. "Given that Jerusalem is in fact historically, presently and legally Israel's capital, the decision by many countries not to formally recognise this has been an act of post-truth petulance."